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We share stories of how the blood of Jesus has transformed ours and others' lives.
Hey everybody, I'm Denalee. Welcome to the Red Ledger. Today we have Erin Dorsey from the Red Circle Project joining us. Erin is going to share her story where she was digitally trafficked as a young girl and eventually assaulted. And I'm sorry to say that that happened to you. It is a fact of life that this is happening and we want to protect our children and young women from these perils, but also how we may even be doing this to ourselves in the future.
In a really unhealthy way. So excited to have you here and it's been a long time in the making. We have been communicating for a long time to get you here. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. Thank you. Can you tell me a little bit about your background maybe? Give us a bit of a sketch of your family life.
Yeah, so my parents only dated for three months before they got married. They did not date very long at all. My dad was teaching a Bible study class at this church. My mom was there. She just, like, moved into town and they met. She was one of the, like, students. I mean, it's not a Bible study at a church, so she's not, like, a student.
But she went to it and they started dating and after three months, they got married. So they didn't know each other very well at all when they got married, um, which for some people that's fine. My dad apparently had a porn addiction already going into that marriage that my mom was not aware of. My mom struggles with regulating herself, being able to regulate herself.
I personally believe that she has borderline personality. She's never been formally diagnosed. Uh, but she just has issues surrounding being able to regulate her own reality. So if you disagree with her, If you do not believe what she believes, if you cause her to feel insecure in any kind of way, she does not deal with that very well.
And not only does she not deal with it well, but after it's happened, after the event has occurred, it's hard for her to let go of the event and to move forward. So, there were a lot of issues going on, but obviously when she found out my dad was sick, Had a porn addiction that was very hard for her to recover from.
It might be hard for anybody to recover from if you, uh, if you have, um, an issue with porn. But that on top of the fact that she just didn't recover well from negative events in general, that everything made her lose trust easily. It's kind of like walking on eggshells with someone all the time. Um, so that's what their marriage was like when I was a child.
I have no memories of them being affectionate. Um, at one point the church found out so they were preparing to be missionaries in Japan. That's all my mom had wanted to do. She'd already gone over there for one summer. She wanted to go back. My dad was like, sure. So they'd gotten all these donations from people.
They were preparing for life moving overseas, essentially. Um, and I remember this vivid memory of us. We were all in the bedroom and my mom was crying. My dad was crying. My mom was like, it's over. We're getting divorced. And I think that maybe was. Around the time she found out, maybe, or the church, they had to write letters to all their donors, saying, like, we're not going.
Do you want your money back? Like, it was a whole thing. But they didn't actually get divorced then. She tried to stick it out for, like, a couple more years. But it was just, like, eggshells the whole time. Can you tell us what Christianity looked like in your house? Because in every house, it's different.
When I grew up in Christians, where my parents were Christians because they said they believed in God. Yeah. And that was the sum total of what I knew. Yeah. Yeah. No, my parents were, they, they are to this day, some, I think they know the Bible better than half the Christians that I meet, like both of them.
And do they live it and walk it out? They do, but it's interesting how different it is. So after all this occurred with the church, my dad, after the divorce, he's never gone back to church, but he reads his Bible every day, talks to God, like has a living active relationship with God. Just does not believe in all of this.
Organize the organized form of it anymore because it was traumatic for him to be rejected like that. My mom, on the other hand, I would say is in a type of church that promotes health and wealth to a degree where it's very legalistic. You shouldn't ever talk about your illnesses because it'll cause you to get sick.
sick. You know what I mean? And I understand that that's a very real belief for some people, but for me personally, I think if you can't talk about the negative at all, I mean, look at the apostles and Jesus, you know what I mean? You think Jesus never talked about anything negative, like out of his mouth and the apostles commiserated with each other as well.
Um, even in Paul's letters, you know, the grief he describes and the loneliness and the turmoil he went through, he very openly speaks about. So I, I just don't think that it's taken too extreme. In my opinion, so they're very different nowadays and how they walk it out But when I was a child, it was definitely very legalistic.
I would describe it like that I know a lot of people are tempted to be very legalistic in their christianity It's a huge temptation But I think specifically with my mom because my dad worked a lot and traveled a lot How I saw it with her was just a lot of self hatred So when I walked away from christianity when I was later, it was because I thought You You had to essentially hate yourself to be a Christian.
You had to beat yourself into the ground, essentially crucify yourself, and just hate yourself for the sin inside of you. There was no way to love yourself. And I really had to reassess that later, what that looks like to acknowledge your sinfulness, but then also rest in your identity within Christ. Um, But at the time, I saw it through the eyes of my mother, you know?
So, they ended up getting divorced when I was like in the fourth grade or so. And then it was pretty much, I became a mother, essentially, to my younger siblings. My older sister, Kate, and I were only 14 months apart. We were like twins, essentially, and she was, she and I were the parents. Were you the parents of the parents as well?
Yes. Okay. My mom was a full time nurse, and when she wasn't working, she was in her bedroom. That's what I remember. A lot of depression, a lot of sleeping, and I'm not saying that was wrong, you know, I think a lot of the stuff I'm describing it, but I'm not necessarily. Trying to judge her. It's just the facts of what happened.
She was depressed, you know? It's really difficult to honor our story and honor the other person sometimes when they're a part of it. Yeah. And, and to, to separate the judgment from the fact, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, I'm not saying that So you're, I think you're doing a great job at it. Thank you.
Because I don't, I don't want her To feel shame about that. It's just, this is why I became a parent to my siblings. We live in a broken hurting world and everyone has to deal with something in life and we can't be responsible for every mistake that we didn't even know we were making forever. Yeah. And again, trying the best that we can with the tools we have in our toolbox at the time, you know?
Um, so she became a single mom to four kids, which I don't think she ever thought was going to happen. My dad never thought he would be a divorced father. He, My memories of us at his house were that he stayed in his room a lot as well to the point that one of my childhood best friends, we like our backyards touched and the reason we apparently got to know them so well is because he would send us outside to play, forget that he'd locked the door and like kept us outside.
It was summer, it was hot, and we would go to their house for water because he just like wasn't paying attention to the time and we would get forgotten about. I have a memory of my mom being really upset. And she just dropped us off at my dad's house without even checking if he was there or not, also summer.
And we had to break the basement window and get inside because we were overheating and I was worried about my brother and sister. You know what I mean? We were just very much lost. We became the forgotten children to my parents who were in this grief from their own choices. And we became very close because of that.
Uh, people used to comment all the time on how like whenever we were in the room together, everyone else. invisible because we would only really talk to each other, and we essentially were trauma bonded, you know. But I was also very angry. I was like a really angry kid. I wasn't the best child parent, you know, like, and I have grief about that sometimes, but like I also acknowledge I was a kid.
So I would get mad. I would hit my brother. I would like punch my brother sometimes if he made me mad. We would, like, chase each other around and fight all the time. I would get mad at my sister and throw my drinks in her face. Like, I was just the angry kid. And my mom had a problem with me more than the other ones because I would push back a lot.
I would argue a lot. She didn't like that. So, um, We might be related. Yeah. Are you the first oldest, or what's your No, I'm actually the youngest, but I was the person who pushed back. My brother just knew better. Huh. I don't know if it's like a no better thing, though, because sometimes she would not be making sense here.
Yeah. Where I'm just like, make it make sense, like, I mean, this one's a bit of a sad story, but there was a time she was so mad. She was driving like 90 on the highway going home and me and my brother were scared. We'd like accidentally embarrassed her in front of some people. And so I knew I was getting spanked when I got home, but I didn't know how hard she was going to hit us.
So I tried to deescalate the situation. I'm in middle school and I'm trying to deescalate this stuff, you know? And I was just like, could you maybe. wait to calm down before giving us a spanking. And she got so mad and I remember she turned around and she was like, I'm the parent, not you. And she took my brother in the bathroom first.
She was hitting him so hard that he was like screaming. I decided to try to run away. She opened the door, saw it, chased me. I happened to get to the bathroom in time to lock the door, but then she tried like, breaking the lock and stuff and she couldn't so then she told my siblings to lock their doors and not let me in like There was a lot of dysfunction, you know, and after it would happen.
We weren't allowed to talk about it anymore We had to pretend that it had never happened and she was sober doing all this stuff, you know So that was the hardest part to like reconcile all of it about was that there were no drugs involved She just like did it didn't know how to regulate herself as a person.
Um, so this was kind of the stuff that was going on. I was in public school, but like I wasn't allowed to do extracurricular activities. I had kids to take care of at home. I was very lonely. We weren't allowed to watch. We had like a set amount of DVDs that we owned. It was like six DVDs and we could watch any of those, but nothing else.
So I wasn't really exposed to like music or movies or TV. So I felt like weird and different from the other kids, which I think any teenager struggles with that, but I like. And I didn't know, like, what to talk to them about to relate to them, because they referenced movies and music a lot that, like, I didn't know.
So, that's pretty much where I was at, like, when I, my dad got me a cell phone when I was 13. And this is back when they're flip phones, you know what I mean? Like, Pretty much guaranteed it's gonna be safe. Yes. Like, there's no way it's not safe. It's a flip phone. And you wouldn't think. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't even thought.
It was safety to give you the phone so we would know how to find you. Exactly. That was it. My kids are in the audience. Yeah, that was it. You couldn't get anything out of it, but like the one thing I remember from when I was a child is and I still recognize this feeling even today. It was like there was a tornado inside of me and I was desperate for anything to feed it.
Any kind of dopamine, you know what I mean? I remember having that desperate feeling like the minute We had a babysitter and my parents were gone. I was looking for something reckless to do I just remember that and it was like I was trying to feed something so deeply unhappy inside of me But I didn't know that at the time and I still feel that tornado sometimes, even in my sobriety, but I just recognize what it is now, you know, and I know I have to sleep it off or pray or do something like more healthy than doing a drug or chasing some kind of like crazy experience.
Um, but yeah, so like I, he gave me this phone and you best believe I was going to check that phone out and see if there was something I could get out of it, something reckless that I could get out of that phone. Um, and I did find little chat room trials on there. I can't remember how many there were. So you could do a chat room on a flip phone?
Yeah. I mean, this is like, it was one of those phones, it wasn't one of the early, early ones. This was one, my phone actually could also dual as an MP3 player. Oh, okay. So like you had to like hook it up to a computer to get the files onto it, but you know, this isn't like literally the first generation of flip phone, but it was a flip phone.
I don't know why that was so fascinating to me. Yeah. Yeah, you could only get the free trial for 30 days and then you had to pay. And this was back like when it was pay per text as well. Okay. So, um, after I did meet Billy in the chat room and we exchanged numbers, my dad at one point got like a 300 bill.
So you're texting back and forth. So I met him on the chat room. I asked if anyone wanted to role play with me. And the reason why I asked that is because I had been on creative writing RPG forums that were like Harry Potter themed. I could do that at my dad's house, not at my mom's. And I loved writing.
I'd done a couple of writing courses like via mail with like some, anyway, it was like a whole thing, but I loved writing. So, uh, when I asked that I wasn't, Looking for anything sexual, I wanted to creatively write, and that was the only online experience I'd had with people, so I, that's what I meant, and Billy was the first person to message back, and he was like, all roleplay, let's exchange numbers, and this is where I say this in every interview, but it's just true, in my child's brain, and, I really did not think he could hurt me.
I understood there was risk, you know, but it's through a phone. Like, how is he going to hurt me through a phone? And you were 13. Yeah. I'm like a half brain. You know what I mean? Like my brain hasn't even, but yeah. So I understood there was risk though. But for me, it's like someone who's going to show me attention because I barely see my dad right now.
Someone who's gonna make me maybe feel special and seen because I feel invisible right now. You know what I mean? Let's freaking go. I don't care about the risk. All that other stuff outweighs the risk because I just want to feel good about myself. I just want to feel good in general. I just want to feel good.
So, um, we started talking and I don't remember how soon afterwards, but it was fairly soon afterwards that what he did was I was at my dad's house for the weekend and he told me a porn website to go to. to watch videos. And I snuck down in the middle of the night, and the very first one that I watched was incredibly dark and graphic.
It was essentially, like, glorified rape. You know, and I'd never even seen a guy naked before, so it was very traumatic for me to see everything that I saw. It wasn't full of love. You know, it was full of violence. And I literally was like, Is this what sex is? And I can't go to my parents to ask this question.
Because somehow you knew you shouldn't be, obviously. Talking to him, but also I don't, my parents don't talk about sex. You know what I mean? Like, there's lots of reasons, like, I think most kids are like, I really don't want to go to my parents to talk about sex. So, like, please don't make me. Uh, but yeah, also because I don't want them to know that I'm talking to this guy.
So, yeah. About Billy, how old was he? So I know at the time when the FBI, like, put him away, he was, I think, 35 or 36. How did you think he was? I knew he, I knew he was in his 30s. Oh, okay. Yeah, no, but I thought that was a compliment. You know, I'm, I'm parenting children. I'm basically an adult. You know what I mean?
I cook food. I dress stylishly, you know, like I could be an adult. So that's my logic, my half brain logic. Um, no, I knew he was in his 30s. So, yeah, we I cried. It upset me. I processed that with him and he used that as one of the first points to start breaking down my self esteem. I mean, it was already freaking broken anyway, but like, you know, the point is to always break it down more if they can so that you become reliant on them for your self esteem.
So he was just like, wow, sounds like there's something wrong with you, you know, and that pretty much the whole point that the conclusion that was reached every single time I got upset was there's something wrong with you. And that's also why when people are like, Oh, he didn't know it was rape. I'm like, the dude knew he was hurting me the whole time.
He hurt my mind for three years. Before he hurt my body. So a 35 year old showing a 13 year old sending her to watch porn so then he can process it with her. People are finding there's no problem with that? Is that what you're telling me online? I mean, I haven't had that necessarily said to me, but I'm like, this is what happened before the rape.
It's not like I just showed up, you know what I mean, and was like, hello, straight. Because there's a process, right? There's a formula predators use. Yeah. So it's like, why do you think I was normalized to going down to see him? I, you have to like, you have to get the mind first. If you can get the mind, the body follows.
You have to have the mind. If you don't have the mind, it's really hard to get the body. So that, that's the whole first process of anything. You know what I mean? Even in controlling adult relationships, like there's so many similarities between child grooming and child abuse and adult abusive relationships.
They're the exact same methods, essentially. You're desensitizing someone to things that hurt them, that are not good for them. It would probably go along the lines of any abuse, even governmental abuse or a teacher abuse. Any, any abuse, this sounds Yep. You can start to see the patterns. When someone's trying to convince you There's a difference between trying to have healthy dialogue because you've realized that there's something wrong in your life That's like not it's not like we're flawless human beings.
We have sin You know what I mean? But there you have to look at the intention of the heart and that's what I do so much nowadays is I'm like Why would that person tell me that story? You know, I really pause and ask myself that. I never used to ask that question. I would take people's stories at face value.
And I don't think there's anything wrong with assessing your environment. I'm not encouraging people to walk around paranoid, you know, going, Did that guy lie to me? Did that guy lie to me? Did that guy lie to me? Is everything a lie? Am I a lie? You know what I mean? Like, it's not that. Like, even a police officer that I heard speak at, um, it was a class essentially for self protection, she taught her kids You know, what was the license plate on that car that just drove by?
What colored shirt was that guy wearing? And her kids, she'd give them a quarter or a piece of candy every time they were being aware enough to observe those things. I'm just encouraging people to actually do that with the dialogues going on around them as well. Because with predatory and manipulative people, they oftentimes get you through storytelling.
You know, they need to change how you see yourself, and they need to change how you see them. So that they can get you where they need you to be. So just ask more questions. What's wrong with like asking questions? I don't think there's anything wrong with it. You know, I just kind of want to kind of stay on this grooming topic for a second.
Cause that's what this is, right? It seems to me because I've been in a similar situation, we shared, um, that at first it was this intense. Love, like you're so cool. You're the best. It never occurred to me. Why, why aren't you dating somebody your own age then? That never occurred to me till 10 years ago.
But, um, so there's this like big love factor. And then when you said that, which I didn't correlate with, then he started breaking me down, started kind of criticizing me. And making me feel less than after he'd built me up. Did you have a similar experience to that? Oh, yeah, always there has to be something to keep you around if there's no good stuff happening Nobody that's just torture.
You know what I mean? That's literally human torture Um, I mean not that there isn't also torture going on in this story as well But yeah, like they have to draw you back in and there's actually like a video I just made on this about the helpless child and a lot of these guys that i've been involved with You The, what I would almost call handling tool, like you have handling tools, ways that they handle you, uh, to keep you around.
And the most effective handling tool that I've run into is the helpless child, where they act like an abuser, they act abusive, they act predatory, however they act. You see it for what it is. It upsets you. They become a helpless child. You feel sympathy for that helpless child because many of us are nurturing codependents.
And we, Kate, that, that helpless child draws us back in. And with so many of these men, I really did see them. As like helpless men who were just, they were helpless to the demon inside of them. They couldn't control it. They felt bad. They were sorry. It won't happen again. I'm just helpless to this thing, you know, and the, I came to hate the thing, but I came to love the man and Think of them as almost out of control.
Like, they can't control it, you know what I mean? So I can't be mad at them, because they won't survive without me. You know, and all this stuff. Um, and Billy absolutely did that too. The other reason I couldn't date guys my age, even after this experience, is because it literally rewired my brain. You know, people are like, Oh, once, you know, no matter what you've been through, once you experience healthy love, it's just going to be awesome.
And I'm like, that's a match. No, it's like when I first started experiencing healthy love, it weirded the crap out of me, honestly. Like I dated a really nice kid. After being with Billy, who's one of the first people I tried to date my own age, and I did not know what to do with that. He was stable, he was kind, he was consistent, and it really weirded me out.
And I cried about it a lot. I cried about the fact that I could not feel attracted to him intuitively because he was so beyond what my brain knew what to understand. He wasn't familiar to me. He didn't feel like home to me. And because he didn't feel like home to me, he didn't feel good. to me. What felt good to me were the adrenaline rushes, the chaos, the unpredictability, you know what I mean?
Feeling like you're on a roller coaster, all that stuff. I do know what you mean. Yeah. Yes. That feels good. That feels comfortable. It's like learning a new dance. Like if you've done the tango your whole freaking life and then you find out the tango is toxic or whatever and they pluck you out and you get put in this ballroom.
where everybody's ballroom dancing and they look beautiful. You don't know how to do that and there's no practice room. You literally just have to go out there feeling weird, feeling like you don't know the steps, feeling awkward, and you literally can only learn by messing up. a lot. And you have to mess up in relationships to learn.
You literally can only learn through practice. So after you've been involved with all this healthy stuff for so long, the only way you can rewire your brain again is by being involved with healthy people and messing it up a lot. And either they have the grace to muscle through that with you, or they don't.
But if you already struggle with self doubt and self hatred, Watching someone kind grow to be disappointed in you is like the most painful experience. ever because I, you would almost rather be with someone who's a dick because you at least don't care about their opinion as much, you know what I mean?
But to disappoint someone who you actually respect and who you actually consider healthy when you already hate yourself so much, it's just a horrible experience to go through, you know,
I'm good.
Well, you just described my life, girl. Yeah. I didn't even, you know, it is interesting that rewiring of the brain that happens by the grace of God. Thank you, God. Um, that I've been on a similar journey, but maybe not as evolved as you. And we're all in different places on the, yeah, but, um, it is interesting.
You know, I just did a podcast with my friend Lisa and she talks about this grace muscle. And it just reminded me of what you're saying, because sometimes I get so disappointed in myself that I don't have it all figured out. So my, my issues around some of this is very similar backstory as yours is boundaries are difficult for me and they're hard for me.
And I get very disappointed in myself when I can't hold true to a boundary, um, because it's really easy for the people who love me and know me and know that this is my journey and they're very respectful. But sometimes there's more difficult people in our life. Right? And that we have to put up these boundaries for.
And she explained to me, because I would get so frustrated with myself, like, am I ever going to get this? And she goes, it's, grace is, it's this great, you have to give yourself the grace too. It's like a muscle, like you said. And she was explaining it as, um, like a golf swing or in baseball, you don't get it the first time.
And especially if you've had a sloppy swing, you have to rewire that swing to get it right. And. Yeah. And it's really easy when you're really feeling good. Right. And your energy's up and you're eating right and you're exercising, but what happens when you're tired? It's easier to fall in laps into those old patterns, but it was just making me think of the grace that is needed, not only from other people, but from yourself as well.
For sure. I mean, even within dating, like I actually have an avoidance to dating now, because, first of all, I still attract, I wouldn't even call them unhealthy people, I think Satan attacks us sometimes through very, like, there's like a certain channel where people get the most attacked within their own life, and mine is through men, like, I've realized that, so I've not only had negative experiences with men, I've had very demonic experiences with men, over and over and over again, and I am hesitant to date because I get tired of experiencing that, even in a brief encounter, even if it's only for a couple of days and then I realize they're not safe, it still hurts, you know what I mean?
But also because I do have this avoidance to working on this muscle. It can be very hard. What's wearing, right? When you keep working on the same muscle and it's hard. Yeah. Sometimes you just need a break. For sure. So I feel like I've been taking that break, but now there comes a point where it's like, I don't want to create too much avoidance to where I never go back to working on it again.
Um, but there is this nice illusion of control that it creates because it really is the last area where I get triggered. And that is actually how I would describe it. It took me a while to realize it because I was just like, I hear everybody talk about dating. and how it's like so exciting and so awesome and you go on these dates and like, you know, you're so excited for the honeymoon stage and I'm like, I literally feel like I'm going into a war.
But I do believe that God can change those things as well. You know what I mean? Like, Oh, you just remind me of Jonah Park for a minute. Oh really? Yeah, you did. What did she do again? I just saw the strong battle. They like barbecued her? You're a battle woman. Oh okay. You're a battle woman. Yeah, cool. No, you are.
I wish there was a battle guy. I'm like, I'm tired. There is. There is. And the enemy wants to keep you from him. A John of Arc. There is. And the enemy wants to keep you from him. Sure. Because you're going to, what you're doing is so important. It truly is that you're sharing your story because people do feel isolated out in the world.
They don't know, like you just sharing your story with me, just gave me some insight to maybe why I can't get past a few things in my life. So, it's important. And I bet you hear that a lot. I do. The main thing that I wasn't expecting that now makes sense to me is how many girls watch my videos who were never raped and were never groomed by an explicit predator.
But, they were groomed by the internet, and the grooming process, maybe they groomed themselves through the internet, you know what I mean? But like, they were, they were still groomed, they were still desensitized to all of this really horrifically inappropriate types of storytelling. And they also became held hostage by the cool girl trope.
And when I talk about the cool girl trope, I always say that, you know, every, Every man has like a cool boy trope, and every girl has a cool girl trope, that kind of like, they think they should be like, by the world's standards. And every girl has a, I think, a different cool girl standard, just like, you know, every girl might have a different favorite, favorite Disney princess.
We all view, like, Feminine strength in a different way. We all have different, uh, qualities about ourselves that we're proud of and that we yearn to have more of. Um, so not everyone's cool girl looks the same, but my cool girl was very much, um, shaped by movies later, but first by Billie. And it all is kind of the same thing where it's like you're not supposed to have any emotional needs.
You know, you give sex whenever it's asked of you. And with a sex addict, that's a lot. Um, you know, but it's really just kind of being this doll who doesn't have any needs, isn't inconvenient, laughs all the time, is, um, adventurous, never afraid. You know what I mean? Whatever that person may want or need from you in that moment.
If the standard of cool changed because a different person was in front of me, I should become like that. So I was like this amorphous sort of thing that, like, I was never consistent in who I was because I was always just trying to be whatever was cool in the moment, and it was exhausting, and I didn't know who I was, who I really was because of that.
And I see so many girls chasing that kind of dream and trying to convince themselves that they really are happy living like that. But I think a lot of times. You know, you can talk yourself into anything, but oftentimes, if you're having to talk yourself into it, you should ask yourself maybe why, and there's so much cognitive dissonance that goes on nowadays between the toxic things we have in our life.
It's just like any addiction, you know? It makes you miserable, and then you wake up every day and tell yourself that it's not making you miserable. Well, it sounds a lot like codependency, right? For sure, yeah. And I, it can, that's like an addiction to me, right? We're making everyone else feel good so we can feel good.
Yeah, yeah. And it's a dangerous, it's a dangerous place to be. And I think the strength comes from figuring out who you are, your identity in Christ. And how did you find Christ? So, yeah, so I modeled for three years and at the end of that career, I was like a shell of myself because I had been trying to be 15 different people all the time.
I discovered drugs. I had no stable social network. I was on airplanes and in empty models apartments for like three freaking years in a row. I had no stable income. I never knew when I was going to get paid next. I wasn't a Christian. You know, I mean, I was just like. Emptied of myself. I remember the main thing that made me realize like it had gotten to a bad place is I didn't laugh anymore And I'm very much like a jokester and somebody who makes jokes and I like didn't laugh anymore My brain was just like emptied out from all the drugs.
I'd been doing and stuff So, um, anyway, I quit and I had had the potential to go like really far, honestly, like I'd been getting some pretty good gigs. I had an acting agent who's actually Keira Knightley's acting agent. Like I was auditioning for pretty big films and I was done and I burned out and I moved back home and I became a waitress.
And my brain did not know what to do with that because I'd never been good at anything before. I'd never felt like I was good at anything. And the one thing where everybody was like, you know, I never thought I was better than other people, but it did feel good for people to be like, wow, what you're doing so cool.
I saw you in a magazine. You know what I mean? Like you can't help but affect you. They were pretty cool pictures. I saw some of them. They were very, very fun, but I stood there. So, yeah, I mean, it was. fun. Like I just felt like I had this whole career and I just walked away from it. And then I went to being something that felt more unimportant and I felt so much shame about that.
And then when I would try and talk to people about it, you know, it's not an experience that people can relate to. It's not like people can be like, when I traveled to Milan, you know, and Stayed there for a week doing a photo shoot, whatever, like, So, I just felt very lonely. I didn't know how to process it.
I started drinking a lot, like, a lot. Doing really horrible, reckless things when I was drinking. And I started getting suicidal thoughts. And there was a morning where I woke up where the thoughts were just, like, so oppressive. I was supposed to go to work and I was like, Cannot do this anymore. Like, I don't matter as a person.
I have, I'm contributing nothing to this world, like I really truly believed, I was 22 years old, and I believed that I had peaked at 22 and I would never do anything as important. Like I really believed that. So I decided I was going to kill myself, and I made a plan, I never held a gun, or used a gun. Um, I don't know if I have to put like a trigger warning at this part or something, but I'd never like, I was going to drive to a shooting range, have them teach me how to use a gun, and then I was going to kill myself there.
And I was driving to the shooting range and this was, I feel like, I think I'd had lots of God experiences, but this is the one that I remember the most, I would say. I think he was always there with me, but this was like one where I'm like, that was probably God. Um, this memory popped into my head of this.
The same nice kid that I've been dating back in the day, we were driving past this building and he said, that's where my ex girlfriend went when she was suicidal. And I'd never remembered this memory before. And it like popped into my head. And the only way I can describe it is that when I remembered it, It cut through the, um, tunnel vision, and I was able to kind of realize that I needed help.
And I remember feeling angry while I was driving there. Like, I was actually, like, I had, like, all this anger inside of me, which now I feel like was maybe something inside of me being mad that I was gonna, like, get, get saved and not die. I don't know. But anyway, when I got there, it just happened to be the only place I could go.
at the time that had a residential suicide unit. And I didn't know that at the time. And I stayed there for 30 days. They were like, Hey, we think you have a drinking problem. And I was like, you sound like you have a drinking problem. Um, found out about sober houses and, uh, yeah. And so I literally relocated like almost overnight.
I finished that, moved down to Cape Girardeau and ended up staying there for two years, got involved in AA. And um, I didn't want to pray and my sponsor was like you should try praying and I was like, I don't want to and I started having these panic attacks. It felt like there was like this presence in my throat that was making me feel like I was suffocating all the time.
And I was so desperate for it to stop that I finally prayed. And I literally, the, the feeling in my throat went on for a month and a half and I woke up one day and it was just gone and it never came back and I was like, that wasn't me. You know what I mean? That was my first. You do know when you know.
Yeah. So I did. I was like, but I'm not becoming a Christian. Like no matter what I do, I'm not becoming a Christian. Why were you fighting it, you think? For the same reason so many people do in this country, there's this indoctrination that teaches you, like, it's the worst thing you could ever do. Any other religion's okay, but Christianity's just, like, the freakin worst, you know?
But when I really started assessing that, it's like, Why? Why is this the most hated religion? You know what I mean? Like, what's the historical backing behind it? There's people that I listened to who are like scholars who talked about actually all of the like historical evidence behind the um, the gospels themselves.
I mean like there's just like so much information out there. If you want to actually learn, um, about how valid the Bible actually is. The information's there. People are, just aren't looking for it. You know what I mean? And so that's what I did. I started like really researching, um, and then after about two years, I finally went to a church.
The information, the information's there. If people want to find it. So if you want to seek, you can find him? Correct. Yes. If you really want to. And that's the main thing because I still have friends who are like, atheist or agnostic or different religions. Usually it's the atheist and agnostic ones who are like, well, prove to me that prayer works.
And I was like, Why don't you pray, and then you'll see it works. Like, why do I have to sit here and convince you? You know, there's a John MacArthur sermon that I love, where he talks about how, like, miracles can't be measured by science. They're completely separate things. You're creating tools and skills to measure physical, mechanical objects.
Spirituality and God are not physical and mechanical in that sense. Even the story of creation, people are like, well, you know, prove it scientifically. He's like, you can't because science requires like observers, repetition. You need it to be a repeated phenomenon. It was creation. It happened one time.
Nobody was there. You know what I mean? It's outside of science. And I really love that because like science, I do think that science and spirituality are exclusive. You're not going to see a science. You're going to see atoms or whatever else, but just because you can see the atoms just because you can see the physical objects doesn't mean there isn't spirit in them.
Doesn't mean God isn't in them. It's just that he's not going to show up on your microscope. You know what I mean? But that doesn't remove the validity of him. Um, so with prayer. Yeah, miracles can't be measured by science, but that doesn't mean they're not real. It just means that you have to go have a personal miraculous experience with God, and then that's between you and God.
And sometimes there might be other observers, but most of the time it's a very personal experience that can't be measured or replicated, and that's also where faith comes in and it becomes a very personal relationship, you know, that not everyone's going to understand because they weren't there and that's okay that there weren't, that there aren't always observers or ways to replicate it.
You know, it can still be real and it is real. So I was having all these really amazing experiences with God praying. I wasn't telling anyone that I was praying. I was just praying and like trying to get to know my higher power. And then I did start going to church and I was researching. And you did have a foundation, right?
Yes. So you knew basic Bible theology. Yeah. I didn't remember like a lot of it. I feel like a lot of it has been me like relearning it from scratch, kind of like I'll remember vague stories, even Jonah and the whale, but when you learn them more in depth, they're so amazing. Like I didn't know Nineveh was a city of 600,000 people and that they were some, what was it, Samaritan or, um, Sumerians.
What is it? I don't know. Anyway, the people that lived in the city had been trying to kill the, he the Jews and stuff. Mm-Hmm. . And so like, can you imagine going into a city of people that like, want to murder you? You know what I mean? Like hatred aside and all the other issues he had. Like I would be, I might have fought it too.
pooping myself. I'd be like, I'm okay. So anyway, just like relearning these stories, but more in depth has been really cool for me. Um, but yeah, so I eventually obviously got baptized and I've been a Christian for about four years now, but for a while I was like, the people pleaser inside of me, it was like, Oh, you know.
Don't talk to people about it because they'll be upset. So I've also gotten, I just see God, like, changing a lot of things inside of me that I know I could not have changed or repaired on my own, like, at all. And I think the other reason why I see that is because there's so many survivors I meet who do not have a spiritual relationship with anything, let alone God or Jesus.
And, It's so much, there's so much spiritual damage that's happened, so much demonic damage that's happened. I think it makes sense that God would be the ultimate healer for that stuff. There's things he's fixed inside of me or healed that I wouldn't have even thought to pray to ask him to fix because I didn't think it ever could be fixed.
I didn't think I could get joy again. I was like so so depressed 24 7, I didn't think I was getting that back, you know, and he gave that back to me. And that's honestly the thing I'm most humbled to have gotten back, is my joy. Because if you can't have joy in life, you know, the joy of the Lord is our strength.
If I can't have that, It's almost like an AA, you know, it's like, what's the point of getting sober if you're just going to be pissed off all the time, you know, like it's going to be a dry drunk forever. No fun at a party. Um, so yeah, I just am so grateful for that more than anything else, uh, that he gave me that back.
Now, when you look back on your life, you said you, you of course knew he was there, but do you see specific pivotal moments throughout your story? Throughout this story of this Basically digital trafficking that happened to you. Do you see him throughout that story? What I see more than anything is the way that I'm able to understand my story now Not just from the layer of like, oh, I understand grooming more and I understand tropes and storytelling It's not just that but like I can actually see billy with grace and mercy as crazy as that sounds, like I can see him as like this person, you know, Billy was molested as a kid.
His mom was an alcoholic. People would just come over at random times, do stuff with her, do stuff to him and then leave. You know what I mean? And all of these are contributing factors. People get their panties in a twist and they're like, Oh, you're making excuses. And I'm like, no, these are just the facts of the situation.
You know, like it literally is just a contributing factor to what made him. Um, so yeah, I feel like that has been great, but more than anything, I think the fact that Billy let me go home, you know, like he could have not let me go home. So let's go back to that story. So I think we talked about your background and then how you got the digital phone.
Yes. And then he started this relationship with you. Yeah. And then how did that evolve? So, yeah, so we talked for on and off for three years. I would get really upset because I'd get fed up with how he made me feel dirty and bad about myself. And I'd be like, I don't want to talk to you anymore. And he was always very confident that I would come back and I would.
Um, so that also got me desensitized to that cycle, that like cycle of abuse, that merry go round cycle of abuse. Uh, so I would come back, but yeah, we talked on and off for three years. And then at the end of that three year mark, um, you know, that there was a lot that happened within those three years that were, it was just horrible.
Um, but yeah, so when I was 16, my mom kicked me out and I moved in with my dad and I got a car and I had tried. This was very much how I didn't know how to talk to people. Instead of like going out into the world and trying to like date guys, I went online to another role playing forum and I met someone through that role playing forum, but that kid was closer to my age.
He lived in Springfield, Missouri, so we ended up like meeting up a couple of times, but then he ultimately decided that he didn't wanna be involved with me, and that was like devastating to me. So I went back to Billy, and this time when I went back to Billy, I had a car. And Billy was like, why don't we just finally meet?
And I was like, I am down for that, you know what I mean? So I told my dad I was going over to my mom's house. My mom and I didn't talk at the time. And I literally drove like 14 hours down to Texas, basically nonstop. The adrenaline and the panic attacks mainly pushed me the whole way there. But I did Pull over and take a couple, like, very short naps.
Um, but yeah, I, I did it. I drove the whole way down, which is also where people are like, Oh, well, you drove there. And I'm just like, again, let's look at consent. Like if you're making a decision based on a lie, you know, cause he wasn't like, hey, come down here so I can like rape you, you know, like I would have gone if I knew.
And I listened to you on another interview. This was a friendship. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You thought he was your best friend is what I had understood. Best friend plus like I, I thought we loved each other, but yeah, absolutely the main person I had to talk to and like confide in over three years cause I was so lonely.
Yeah. I definitely considered him a friend and the whole time, again, my brain hasn't connected the dots when he says it's going to go at your pace cause I didn't know what I wanted to happen. He knew that I was a virgin. And I knew that I was nervous. You know what I mean? That's all I knew, but he promised that whatever happened, it would be on my terms, you know?
So like I went into it not knowing at all what, what I might want. So I was in a similar situation, but it wasn't digital because I'm much older than you there, but I think before that first. Encounter. Mm hmm. Um, it was more of somebody was giving me attention and cared about me and I desperately wanted love.
Yeah. And I don't know that I was thinking that it would turn into sex. I don't, but maybe I did. I mean, I don't know. I think I knew it would, but I didn't really know it would, but I didn't really know what that would mean. Because I too. Mm hmm. Didn't have an experience, right? I think I understood sex was like a possibility in the sense that that's all he talked about all the time but I also wanted I was going down there for love, you know what I mean?
Not what happened right? Not that I was not going down there for that And also when you've been desensitized to all these horrible things, how much can you consent? Like, actively consent to something, you know what I mean, when you've been broken down into this version of you that's not even, like, you anymore.
There's just, like, so many, so many contributing factors to it, but I literally brought my homework with me, you know what I mean? Cause I was just like, we're gonna hang out, maybe we'll, like, kiss, you know what I mean? Like, A more innocent view of, Yeah, I've only known this guy, literally, we've talked on the phone a couple of times, but most of it's been texting.
Had you ever even seen a picture of him? Um, so we actually had Skyped, but it was only for him to do really gross stuff and make me watch. Um, so it wasn't like, hey, how you doing? Tell me about your day. You know what I mean? So I really, the main thing that I became aware of the minute that I met him was I do not know this person at all.
In the sense that, like, I realized I've never seen his energy, you know what I mean? Like, his personality, like, he was so tall. Just, like, all these micro qualities when you, I just, seeing him and meeting him for the first time in person made me realize how much I never fully could know him through the phone.
I, I didn't know him, even though we talked for three years, I didn't really know him outside of all that other gross stuff, you know, and, and that made me shut down where I was like, Oh, this is actually kind of like a stranger. And his energy was very intense, very intimidating, very aggressive. And now I'm in the car with him.
We left my truck at a gas station. And we're driving and I now feel totally shut down. Nobody knew I was down there. Now you've lost your transportation. Yeah. And I know, I understand people are like, well, you could have opened the car door. And like, it's so easy in hindsight to be like, you could have done this.
You could have done that. I am shut down. Like I'm shut down. You know, there's a paralysis that almost happens when you're in the situation. Cause you don't like, I felt like, okay, I got myself into this. Now what happens? And now it's survival. Yeah, and I think I was hoping like it might get better. It might be okay.
You know what I mean? Your brain. All right. Am I just crazy for having these weird thoughts? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I very quickly was like, I think he might be dangerous. Um, but it's just like your brain starts doing all this like rapid fire, crazy stuff. It takes over like your bottom brain just like takes over and Yeah, so everybody who wants to criticize in hindsight, I just find it so funny because I'm like, I'm glad you think you know What you would do when you're in survival mode, but no one knows what their survival mode is No one knows and every survival mode is actually different like just because your survival mode was one thing in this situation doesn't mean it would be the same survival mode in another because The person you're in front of right here might feel more predatory and dangerous the person over here You're so you're like animal brain might recognize that you actually can take them on.
So you might actually develop more of a strength to be able to fight back in that moment. Your brain can very quickly assess like micro indicators and micro tells that you're not even logically recognizing. It can very quickly assess character and with that information it does a bunch of stuff. And then you all you can do in hindsight is look at it and go, Huh.
Guess I should have done that different. You know what I mean? But like, it's so much information all at once and everything's happening like so quickly. Um, so yeah, we got back to his house and basically, I would describe it as a hostage situation for an entire weekend. He didn't hold a gun to my head.
But he did take your transportation away from you. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yes. And we were not in a time of Ubers. Correct. And I know I could have like walked out of the house and like, you know, in hindsight, it's like, yeah, I could have gone to a neighbor's house. Like I see all these things. In that moment, I did not see any of those things, especially because I felt like he could chase me.
You know what I mean? It's just like, I'm just, I'm just. And what's the thought of being in trouble in your head? Because that, that was going through my head sometimes. Like, I'm going to get in trouble. Yeah. I'm going to get in trouble for being so stupid, I guess. No, that happened a lot when I was driving down there.
Before I knew he was like as dangerous as he was, even just driving down there, I was, there were so many times where I thought about calling my parents, but I didn't want them to be disappointed in me, which is such a child like fear. It shows the child inside of us, you know, I just didn't want my parents to be disappointed in me.
And it's sad how that childlike fear. Gets people in such dangerous situations, just the fear of your parents looking at you and saying, I am disappointed in you, you know what I mean? And I don't see you the same way anymore. That type of thing. It can be so devastating to kids. And I was terrified of that happening because I already hated myself so much.
Disappointment can be like a truly like crushing thing, you know? So yeah, I definitely thought about my parents. Um, But yeah, so for the whole weekend, you know, he didn't like feed me very much or anything that wasn't like the priority I mean I got fed but not as often as like there were times where I was like feeling lightheaded and stuff, you know Because the priority was just like sex for the entire weekend No, I mean, I never know what to say to that.
Thank you. I'm sorry. Thank you He did invite a female friend over And she was, I think, personally a pedophile because, um, she was there to see me and to enjoy me and she was in her forties. So, I don't think she was, like, necessarily a victim of his grooming. I think if she'd been younger, because I know that's a thing sometimes where they have, like, another, you know, young groomed child and then they convinced both people to do stuff.
But she, I mean, she was, she was an adult. Um, so yeah, so I, I was there for an entire weekend and I just wanted him to let me go back to my car and my whole motivation was getting him to let me go back to my car. So he did, he did eventually. And I personally think that that shows that what my brain chose to do in that moment was the correct thing.
You know what I mean? Because I think it could have been a lot more violent. Okay, so what if you were feisty and then he'd be afraid to let you go home? That's what I'm saying. Because then what happens? And I think my brain accurately assessed his character and said, this is not the type of person you threaten.
You know what I mean? This is an unpredictable, chaotic person that you do not threaten. Threatening does not work with a person like this. I think my brain or the Holy Spirit intuitively understood that. And I think fawning was the more appropriate response. And my brain was. very intelligent and figured that out, you know?
So again, when people act like kicking and screaming is the only appropriate reaction, it's just so uninformed. Um, it's not even likely. Yeah, for sure. Statistically. Yeah. So it makes me also think that it's people who have not had this happen. Yes. A hundred percent. Or, I mean, I think especially if it's a man, I think men are just like, well, that's what you do.
You know, you fight. Exactly, so I guess, so I mean, yeah, let's give them grace. Yeah, I mean, fighting, that's what you do, you know what I mean? It's like, not always. Not really. Sometimes you bake a cake. Um, then you win the war. But yeah, so I went back home. And, uh, the whole way home, I, I started crying. And this is how much I was desensitized to this stuff.
So, I didn't even think it was rape, dude. Like, while I was there, I, that wasn't what I was thinking. I wasn't like, oh, I'm getting raped. Like, that wasn't what I was thinking. I literally thought that I had had my first normal sexual experience. He, at one point in the beginning, I did look scared and he did say, if you look at me like that again, I'm going to hurt you.
He did say that, but for the rest of it, because I wasn't kicking and screaming and because we were doing everything that I'd already seen in porn videos, I really thought that I had my first normal sexual experience. The porn videos that he had you watch. Yeah. So he was preparing you. Yes. For this weekend.
Yeah. So, and it worked. It actually worked until I talked to my parents. It worked. You know what I mean? So do you think he had other girls that he was doing this with at the same time? The FBI found out later there were other children he was talking to. So he had a whole I don't know how many, but yeah, he had other children he was talking to.
Basically what most states try to do is they can get someone put away for longer with child porn charges than just for rape. Okay. So I went to the police. The only way I was able to prove I was down there were with gas station receipts. Because I gassed up down there before driving back. And they also had me wear a wire and talk to him on the phone.
And they were like, we just need him to admit that he knows what he did is wrong. And I was like, he's not going to freaking say that. And he totally did. Wow. He totally said, so then they had enough, they had enough evidence to, basically they put an FBI guy on the case who pretended to be a 14 year old.
And I introduced him to Billy. He talked to Billy for, I don't know how long, it was like a couple weeks or a month to get enough evidence for a subpoena so they could get his computer. And on the computer, they found child porn. Then he got put away for the child porn charges. I didn't have to testify because that would have been traumatic for me.
You know what I mean? So like, yeah. And that's how they usually try to do it. So I've had some people who are like, well, what's his name? And I'm like, first of all, there's not like an article on it. I'm not famous. You know what I mean? And they usually try to keep the identity of the survivor hidden. For lots of different reasons, most of them aren't going on podcasts and like talking about it.
So there is an actual like judicial article about him, but it doesn't have my name in it. It just says that the, um, St. Charles Police Department and the FBI work together. to put him away. So how long did he get? Um, if I remember correctly, it was 30 years. Um, I actually Wow. Good. It should be longer. It was his second charge in my opinion.
I found out later he'd already been to prison for, for raping a minor. But you hear of like stories of like three years. Oh, for sure. Yes. So that is. That makes me, my heart happy. And he had a wife, I found out later, and she was pregnant. So I have found her on Facebook later, and I've only talked to her, like, twice over the, like, years.
Um, but yeah, she said when she You have talked to her, personally? Mm hmm. And she was like, I'm so sorry, and I'm like, it's obviously not your fault, you know what I mean? But it was, yeah, we talked, um, she had the baby, there were a lot of health complications. It was actually born, um, Without like a fully formed rectum so it like has like all these like health issues I don't know if that's from the stress.
She was under with everything, but she said she actually Threw the bed away like the whole bed. She just like got rid of it. So Yeah, but he's in prison. So he was good at what he did. He could yeah, he hid it from her and was able to But also what I've run into, and I, I, I can relate to this on some level, when you're in an abusive relationship, no matter what it is, they tend to pick people who don't ask a lot of questions.
They don't pick people who are investigative, who know how to advocate for themselves, like they weed those people out. He wouldn't have married her if he'd noticed and discovered in the dating process that she was that type of person. He picked her for a reason, and it's because she had low self esteem, she struggled with obesity.
You know what I mean? She didn't care about herself very much, and I assume that she was pretty much looking for someone to just help her get through life. You know what I mean? Like, love, yes, but more so, you know, I think just someone to be along by her side to make life a little less hard. Like, they weren't rich.
They weren't rich people. Um, she's a very kind woman. Um, but yeah, I think he picked her for very specific reasons. Just like he picked me for very specific reasons, you know? What do you think those are? Well, I was young. I was impressionable. Um, I openly talked about how unhappy I was in my home life. He asked me if my parents knew that I was talking to him.
I said no. You know, he made sure to, like, get that. I mean, that could have changed at any moment, but he was looking for someone who was a good secret keeper. That's what a lot of my relationships have been like since then too. I was taught by him that secret keeping was an admirable thing, that it made me very attractive, you know what I mean?
A cool girl of sorts. And later in my life I was very proud of the fact that I kept secrets well for the men that I loved, um, that I wasn't super investigative, that I was a pushover, that I had low self esteem. And that I was malleable, really. I mean, he's the person who educated me on sex, and I know that he enjoyed that process.
And sometimes when I tell my story about him, people will be like, Oh, well, he sounds like he was just a guy who just liked you. And, you know, you didn't kick and scream when you were down there. So he didn't know that he raped you. And I'm like, I, that's so not true. Like, he enjoyed that. The process of it being taboo, he enjoyed the lack of consent, he enjoyed teaching me to want things that I didn't want at first, he enjoyed that process of breaking someone down.
He knew he was the adult, he knew I was the child, I was not the only child he was talking to. You know what I mean? Like, This, he knew what he was doing. He was not some innocent man and we weren't like mutual peers. You know what I mean? You've been to prison before for the same thing. And even if he had similar thing, even if he hadn't, I was 13 when I first met him.
Like he knew he was picking a child. He was looking for a child and people sometimes assess my story. Like, we were two teenagers that just met up for the weekend and there was just a misunderstanding and he didn't know that I didn't want it because I didn't kick and scream, you know? And I'm like, first of all, I also find it funny when people act like I should have kicked and screamed.
I'm like, how is that the safer approach? I should have let this man know that his reality was being threatened, that he was potentially going back to prison, and that I was potentially going to the police. That's the safer approach for that situation. You know who I, I'm just, I have a question about the kind of person that would ask you something like that because as we, we had visited earlier and we talked about how we know you discussed how you know so many women who have been through something similar or been violated in some way.
I was just having a conversation with my girlfriends a while back saying, I maybe know one person who hasn't been raped or molested or sexually assaulted in one one person. Yeah. And I know a lot of people. So. most women would know that happens that way. So I'm wondering if the person who, or the kind of people that.
Ask you this question, are they men or women? They are men. Okay. And, uh, I've only been asked this question in person three times. The rest of the time it's in the comment section. You know what I mean? Mm hmm. in person to my face, it's not like they sat there and they were just like, Sounds like you wanted it.
You know what I mean? They don't say it like that, but they do say, Well, do you see how he could have not known? That you didn't want it because you didn't say no. So this brings up a rage in me. So I think you, I've seen your comment sections and I'm really, I'm really proud of how you handled them.
Because it's a little rage in me. Yeah. Yeah. So you go back home. How, how was that drive? Uh, so I, I remember I cried and I remember being mad at myself for crying. Because, again, this was that loop that he had taught me where if I had a negative emotion to anything sexual, there's something wrong with me.
I have no ability inside to think that I'm allowed to have a sexual preference. There's no mechanism inside of me that is like, oh, you're allowed to not like certain sexual things. Like, I really believed I was supposed to be open to doing everything and if I wasn't, then I was a prude. That's how, and I didn't just think that when I was a child.
And you're no longer the cool girl. Right, but that's what I'm trying to explain to people. Everybody cares about you when you're a child. The minute you hit 18 and you're a legal adult, nobody cares anymore about how you're having sex. Nobody asks you about how you're having sex. So you go on after this indoctrination to continue to have sex in this very, predatory way that a predator taught you and no one's discussing it with you anymore.
You're not discussing it with anyone. So it's like this weird closeted experience, you know, like, I'm not saying we should be discussing sex in like freaking restaurants 24 7 and stuff, but you know, like the idea of like going to a therapist specifically surrounding your sex life. Is not a terrible idea just even to check in About like why you might be doing things the way that you're doing them if they're hurting you You know, like sex can be used as a form of self harm whether people realize it or not But yeah, they're they're the way that I process that weekend for a while was just like I did everything I was supposed to do Once again, I didn't like it because there's something wrong with me Now i'm not a virgin I suck, you know what I mean?
Like that's just kind of what I was walking around thinking People noticed I was different when I got home. I took like a million baths and, um, and then finally one day my mom was just like, because we talked on and off, um, but she was just like, why do you seem different? And I don't know, like, why I decided to tell her.
Um, But I decided to tell her and, uh, yeah, she was like, that's right. And I was like, no, I don't think so. She was like, no, no, it was. So my mom's the reason I ended up like going to the police department the whole time I was waiting for someone to hear my story and go, yeah, it sounds like consent, you know what I mean?
Like at one point I did call social worker hotline and the lady on the phone did say, it sounds like. You, you drove down there. It does sound like consent. So we did that first, then we went to the police department. You know what I mean? But like, I, I really. For years, I just, like, it was hard for me to believe that it was rape.
Um, and I think that's why I didn't assess it very much after it happened. It was a thing that happened, and I literally just, like, moved on with my life. And I just, like, went on to date, went on to, like, have sex in this kind of way. All of it went very unexamined. I didn't, like, talk to people about the experience very didn't get any counseling immediately after or any time?
Okay, because I wanted to be okay. I just wanted to be strong enough to not have emotional needs. I was proud of the fact that I actually believed that this stuff had not affected me because I didn't have flashbacks. You know what I mean? It's not like I was laying around, like having flat, like the normal PTSD symptoms that people think about, like I didn't have my PTSD symptoms are that, like, I just don't feel anything emotionally, like I just shut down, you know what I mean?
But it wasn't like the classic stuff, so I really was like, I'm good! You know what I mean? Like, I'm fine! Um, and it took me a really long time to even come back to this place where I can see it more now. Did it happen again with anyone else? Because you hear that sometimes when somebody is a victim once, it happens multiple times.
So like, after, by the time Billy got put away, I was 18. Okay. So I'm not a child anymore, legally. So everyone I had sex with after that, it was definitely consensual. You know what I mean? Like, I went on to have sex the same way, so no, there wasn't any rape because I gave away everything willingly as much as I could all the time.
Because that's what you thought Yeah. That was supposed to be like. That was dating. If somebody asked me for sex on like the first date, like yeah, absolutely, that's like what's supposed to happen. You use me for my body and then maybe you'll stick around afterwards. You know what I mean? And if I didn't do that, they weren't going to stick around.
And I wanted their approval. So I, yeah, I just copied, pasted, copied, pasted, copied, pasted, and that was my life for like 10 years. You know what I mean? Isn't it interesting how we pick up a formula? Yeah. Yeah. Even when it's not the correct one? Yeah. And use it? Yeah. In our lives? Yeah. So, Billy goes to jail.
What happened to the woman? Did anything happen to her? No. Okay. No, they only investigated him. Um, I don't know why they, I don't know why they didn't look into the woman. Interesting, huh? Yeah. But no, he was the only one that was prosecuted. So you said something earlier that I found really interesting, you were, we were talking about grooming and how these predatory people groom, but you talked about how we groom ourselves.
Yes, can you talk to us a little bit more about that because I think that is a huge issue Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean if you think about it, especially if you don't have like, you know A moral system like Christianity to adhere to you're like a leaf in the wind anyway How are you actually? Measuring what's right and what's wrong like when people want to talk to me about evil or the wrong in the world as a non believer I'm like My main point and stance that I take with them is how are you measuring what's right and what's wrong?
How are you measuring evil and good? You have no moral system. It's just a matter of opinion. Like, really, who are you to say that the Holocaust was wrong as a nonbeliever? You have no moral system to measure that by. It's just you not liking Hitler. It's just you not liking genocide. You know, it's the same way with all this other stuff.
Like, when you don't have a moral system to adhere to, a God system and what God teaches us to adhere to, like, It's very easy to groom yourself into bad ideas because it You only really believe what's closest to you, honestly. Like if, and if the things that are closest to you are a bunch of really inappropriate movies, and really, and you don't know they're inappropriate, you know what I mean?
You start out in your childhood with a few examples of love, and you use that to gauge what you like. And what you don't like later, that's all society tells you to like, yeah, but that's all you're doing is just measuring what you like and don't like. You're not measuring good and evil. You're measuring preferences.
That is a different thing. And you can tell me what you prefer. You can tell me what you don't prefer, but just because you prefer it or don't prefer it doesn't make it good or bad. Those are just your preferences and your preferences are very easily manipulated and your preferences are very easily swayed.
Way more than people want to admit to themselves because you have no idea how easy it is to brainwash yourself. All you have to do is hear the same freaking sentence, idea, or story over and over and over and over and over again. And if you hear it enough times, you eventually will believe it. Mark my words, you will, especially if you have no moral system to adhere to.
So there's no check and balance when it's your own system. Yeah, it's just whatever. And, and people who say, well, this feels right to me. Does it feel right to you because you've been experiencing it for a really long time? Because you're used to it? So pedophiles, sex with children feels right. Yeah. Does that make it right?
That's what I'm saying. And that's the world we're entering into. That is the world we're entering into where it's like, Who are you to tell me that this is wrong because it feels right to me. It feels good to me. You know what I mean? And it's just a ridiculous way of going through life and measuring things because that, that bar can get swayed and moved so, so easily.
Just because something feels comfortable doesn't mean that it's right. And people conflate the two ideas when they are very much exclusive from each other. So I grew up in a very different time than you and where porn wasn't so. easily accessible. And, um, I think when it did become accessible, it, the, the story was, oh, this is good for your relationship to watch this.
And so we did. And that also started to destroy our relationship, which is interesting because it was easy to not fall into it. Cause We didn't grow up like you kids did. Do you know what I mean? Where it's just around every corner and that's what you look and that's what you, okay, how do I have sex? You look at this.
We didn't have that. We had to figure it out. You know, we had to literally figure it out. Sorry, kids. My kids are in the room. This is weird. Your parents had sex. Yes, we had you. And now it's even deeper than watching porn. You are porn, especially for women. You have to be porn. You have to be a porn star. Is that the expectation of young, from young women?
I don't think they explicitly understand that, but I don't know if people are sitting down and going, you know what? I think I want a girl to be a porn star. But like they, they do. You do. You want me to have no emotional needs. You want me to give you sex whenever you want it. You know, for the people who's, this is their standard.
That's literally a porn star. You know what I mean? You want me to have some sort of photoshopped body with no flaws, and if I don't, you apparently resent me for that and use it as an excuse to cheat on me. You know what I mean? Like, that's a, that's a porn star, it's somebody from a porn video. You want that in real life, and when you can't get this illogical thing that doesn't actually exist, you resent reality for it, not your addiction and your fantasies, and then you go around looking for the fantasy in other people, and you're never gonna find it.
You're never gonna find the fantasy. So, how old are you? I have a 23 year old niece in here who is nodding her head and agreeing with everything you're saying, which is interesting, right? Yeah. Because we have some different ages happening here and that's what she is experiencing as well. We just spoke about it last night.
Yeah. She just had, She just said what you just said. Wow. No, I mean, it's sad. And that's what I mean. I find most women like actually relate to this. If you can explain it to them in a way that if you just walk up to a girl and go like, you should dress differently and you should have sex differently. And you just like list off all the things that they should be doing.
That doesn't work. You have to like really open up people's minds to like, why do I believe the things that I do about myself? The biggest thing you can think about to really check yourself is, did I feel this way about myself when I was a child? Did I think of myself as a sex object as a child? No, I didn't.
Did I think of myself as a bad object as a child? I mean, depending on when your parents started talking to you, like you're a piece of crap. No, you know what I mean? So it's like, you're not born with these ideas. That's not how God wants you to think about yourself. But then they're taught to us by other people.
And most girls that I talked to as well are tired from trying to be this thing that isn't real. So I obviously do not live in this culture cause I'm 52 but my question is, Are the girls putting this on themselves or are men actually putting this on women? It's both but like when people girls watch porn, you know what I mean?
Like the my church that I go to they're only having classes surrounding porn for men and that is a grave mistake because Girls can get addicted to porn and girls are watching porn and they're learning how to be girls are educating themselves on how to be as a woman from porn. They are not learning how to have sex from anywhere else.
No one else is talking to them about sex other than the rando sex ed classes you do in school. So they're going, how am I supposed to have sex? How does the world want me to have sex? I'll watch porn to educate myself. So yes, women are putting it on themselves just as much as men, but they're both receiving the same story.
There was an interview that I did with a guy who's actually like, he was a porn addict and we talked about it, how like it met the porn, made him see women as an object and the porn makes women see themselves. So both people are believing in the story but then when it all falls apart and doesn't last long term, because that's not sustainable, they blame themselves instead of blaming the story.
They're not assessing the story they're just blaming themselves for everything. And thinking oh well it's her she's the reason the fantasy didn't work out and the girl says it's me. I'm the reason the fantasy didn't work out you know what I mean. And there's just so much pressure for something that's not real.
And it, and the main thing I try and impart to women is like, you're not a failure because you want love. That's the society we live in now, where you think that you're weak because you want love from a man. Because you want emotional support from a man. That's not weakness. Do you know how strong it is to know what you want?
Do you know how strong it is to know what you deserve? To state those boundaries and to hold to them? Do you know the kind of strength that that takes? Preach it, sister! I'm just Because I'm like, we're, we're getting things mixed up. We're calling things that are weak, strong, and we're calling things that are strong, weak.
And we're getting it flip flop, dude. Amen. You know, like if you're a bully, you're actually the weak one, not me. So, you should assess that too. Thank you. Did you hear that? Everyone hear that? I wanted to get up and raise my arms, man. A group session, like, Let's do some worship. What is your hopes that sharing this story will do for the people who are listening?
Yeah, I mean, I see this affecting Christian women just as much as secular women. This is an idea that's infiltrated society at large. I mean, I think the Christian church Unfortunately, I mean, the Christian church will always be under attack. That's why Paul wrote so many of his letters in the New Testament, because Gnosticism and false ideas were trying to infiltrate even back then.
He wrote the letters to the Corinthians because even after hanging out with them for two years, a false Pastor came in and turned them all against him, like we're so easily swayed, you know, judges, the book of judges was written because time and time again, God kept giving the Jews grace and they kept absorbing the culture around them instead of just sticking to what God wanted.
You know what I mean? Like this isn't new. It's not new, but I would, I'm trying to, I guess, talk about this stuff because. For whoever might need to hear it, you know, you're being held hostage by a story and by idea that God does not want for you. And it's not because we're sitting, you know, I'm not sitting here acting like I'm better than you.
It's hurting you. I'm, I would bet money that it's hurting you. And I would bet money that you're tired and you're, you're blaming yourself. for those feelings, but there's much bigger things at work, and so if I can help anyone get freed from this type of like lifestyle to, to become the person that, the woman of God that God does want her to be, it's really for women and young, young girls more than anything, um, honestly.
Yes, because that's such a good point. Like, I've actually met really kind men who were like, I didn't want to choke her out, but like, she wanted me to, like, suffocate her until she was, like, unconscious. She wanted that. And like, she was unhappy unless I would do it. And like, women are. This is another reason.
Women hold so much power, actually, they really do. It's not all with the men. Like, women want to be like, Oh, well, it's guys and ma You know what I'm like? No, women have power. First of all, our bodies are beautiful. You know what I mean? But also, just like, what You can also change the narrative, like, in the bedroom.
But yeah, it's like, women are also pushing guys to act like rapists. Because that's what they think they want, and then they assume the guys want it too. And the guys don't always want that. You know, but then I've heard from men like, Oh, I didn't want to look weak. I didn't want to look like I didn't want it.
So I just kind of like went with it. And maybe, I don't think they're lying when they say that. You know, like, but women just, they absorb all these stories, and then they don't even think to check in. with the guys about maybe if that's even what they also want. Um, so that's another thing that I've thought about before.
Yeah, no, that and then like, so my, my most recent relationship, she like, she, she held all of her value in her relationship sexually. Couldn't understand when I would be like, I just want to be here for you. You know what I mean? I do. This is, yeah, and I remember just like, I remember thinking about that, like, how do I be there for someone?
Yeah. I think that a lot of my, no, no, it's good. I think it's good information. It's just, it's interesting. Cause you're my son that I'm going to answer this and I want to hear your feedback on it as well is I think when that is your value or you're taught, that's your only value. It's hard to make that not your value.
Do you know what I mean? Like I, for most of my relationship with my husband, who I've been married to, um, over 30 years, I thought that that's how we were going to show love is sex. And, um, it took us a long time, not, I mean, not even the recent five to ten years where like, Oh, there's more to this love thing.
There's patience, there's long suffering, there's enduring, there's, there's perseverance, there's kindness, compassionate. There's this me not keeping record of every wrongdoing you've ever done. There's a whole lot more to love than I thought. And how much, I mean, how much do you think you would have, because God has given a lot Men, men also have power.
You know what I mean? We inherently value men's opinions. We just do. Like, I personally think that when women haven't been, like, convinced to devalue men, women inherently, like, respect men's Men are meant to, like, lead us in some ways, I think, because we're so vulnerable. Childbirth makes you vulnerable.
Postpartum makes you vulnerable. Like, the Periods we go through and the hormones that are affecting us once a month make us vulnerable. There's all these ways that we're vulnerable that you guys aren't, even on just like a chemical level. And so in that way, you can be leaders to us. And I'm just curious, like, how much would you appreciate if, like, you went into a relationship with that mindset and the man had the courage and the wherewithal to ask, like, Who taught you that that's what love looks like?
That would be awesome. But I don't think he knew either. No, he didn't but i'm just saying that would be super awesome If more men knew that this is why girls were wanting the things that they wanted if more men were educated on this And then had the ability with that education to ask that question to women And game changer you did know because it didn't feel right because she was trying to make the relationship All right, always in a sexual way when things weren't right.
But leading, leading women to ask these questions without shame, without judgment, you know, it's just like Why do you think you perceive love this way? You know what I mean? Who taught you that? You know, like, I don't think enough women have been asked that question, let alone by a man. We, I think I hear a lot of girls say, like, a lot of girls just seem to assume that men are these, like, carnivorous sex addicts.
You know what I mean? And, you know, To also give a woman an opportunity to experience a man who's stepping outside of that narrative, it would be like, just earth shattering, I think. Well, I thought they were as well in my relationship. I remember early in the relationship because I seem to have wanted to That physical intimate contact more because I thought it was love.
Correct. And so I thought something was wrong with me when he didn't want sex all the time. Cause that's what TV told me. Men are, that's all they do is want sex. And my husband wasn't this sex crazy person. I would panic. Why do you not need me as an object? Why do you not need me? How am I supposed to have worth?
If you don't need me as an object, if you don't need me as an object, you must be going to get it from another object. So where are you getting it? Like it was unfair. that maybe this dude just didn't want sex 24 would to me, you know what I mean? It really was like what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me?
What's wrong with me? And it's because I was. That's the only role I knew, you know? And of course the guy wasn't like, sounds like you were indoctrinated in false narratives. like, you know what I mean, like, that's not going through their heads. Till people watch this video. So, yeah, I mean, it's just like, he didn't know what to say.
He was just like, why are you freaking out right now? Like, I'm fine. You know what I mean? I'm stable. I'm emotionally stable. I'm kind. Like, he didn't call himself that. But, you know, he was just like, why are we freaking out right now? And the tornado inside of me, combined with the sex addict trope, or the porn star trope, was just like, I can't do this.
Like, I don't know how to process you as a person. And I left. You know what I mean? I freaked out. I left. So if somebody's watching this and has young children, and we don't want young women being digitally trafficked in this way, like being groomed with porn, how do we help our children? How do you help?
What would you, what do you wish your mom would have done differently? I would have not liked my parents for this, but I wish they would have taken the phone. Away. But I'm not saying that's the answer. It's not the answer because even if you take your kid's phone away, their friends have a phone, you know what I mean?
Like you can't do that. Honestly, it's hard because the real issue is if your phone, if your child has a phone that has any sort of chat mechanism on it, even little kids, if they're playing any sort of game like Fortnite that has a chat feature, they've probably talked to a predator. It doesn't mean the predators groomed them.
Doesn't mean that they've exchanged phone numbers with the predator, but they have probably talked. To a predator, even just in passing. So like what we have to understand about the internet and apps and games and all this stuff is there's no regulations on any of this stuff, literally, like basically at all, even like YouTube kids is kind of a joke because adult ads can still get in, like the world's just there.
So the crazy thing about the internet is you're. It's like you taking your child and dropping them off at an adult building and just letting them go inside to this room filled with adults and you just dropping them off, not watching anything and then coming back and picking them up later. You know what I mean?
Like people think even just like the time restrictors, like, Oh, I only give my kid like 15 minutes on Snapchat or something. Okay. Yeah, I guess that's helpful. But a predator can say a lot in 15 minutes, like time restraints. So really the question at the end of the day comes down to like. Are you noticing changes in your child's behavior?
Like, does it seem like your child's isolating more? Does it seem like your child's getting gifts, and you don't know where they got the gifts from? Like, you really It requires a parent to be actually tuned in to like what's going on with their kids and a lot of parents are also really busy nowadays and are also addicted to their phones.
So, are you being present and active like with your child? The other thing that I think parents need to be doing if they can is actually educating themselves on how kids hide information on these apps. I don't even pretend to be knowledgeable in that, I'm not gonna lie, but like. If you don't even know how the app works, again, how much are you actually tuned into what's going on technologically in your child's life?
This is true because my niece told me last night that there was this, um, chat or a forum called, what was it called? Omegle. Omegle. When she was, when she was young. girl. That's like, that's been around a while. Yeah. It was, that's what happened when she was 12. A lot of STDs on Omegle. Yes. Nasty. Well, and she said there was.
predators that would approach them and show them body parts on this, on this app when she was 12 years old and she's 23 now, 24. But I found that interesting cause I had never heard of the app and she goes, no, kids didn't tell their parents about it. I had, I, and I was pretty involved in tech at that point.
Never heard of it. Wasn't there a slogan like, chat with strangers or something? That's literally the, that's their slogan. Chat with strangers. Yeah, you just, it's like chat roulette. Video chat roulette. And she saw similar images that you were seeing and she was 12 years old. There's that aspect to it, just like understanding what comes with your child having a phone, but like more than that, even if, even if your kid's phone is on lock, their friend's phones.
What does their friend's home life look like? So really you can't, I wish we could shove our children in closets and bring them out when they were 21, but that's essentially what my parents did with me. They didn't talk to me about anything. They didn't educate me on anything. They didn't ask me questions.
And yes, I probably would have lied to them. You know what I mean? It's not like your kids wouldn't lie to you, but I'm just saying, like, I was shoved in a metaphorical closet and I was a very vulnerable person from that. So, like, you can't escape that. First of all, kids are vulnerable in general anyway, but, like, we're depriving them of these conversations.
Also doesn't help. If I ever become a parent, I feel like the one thing that I'm really gonna impart to my child is like, there is nothing you could ever do that would make me not love you. Even if you get nudes posted online, even if you talk to someone who makes you feel dirty, there is nothing you could ever do that would make me find you disgusting.
You know what I mean? And I would say that to them every single freaking day. Did you feel that as a child? Absolutely not. Okay. No. So that's where I was going to go next because I think, and I, you have a ton of experience with this and have heard many stories, but I do hear some common threads in our story.
Some parts of mine might be worse than my, or in some parts of yours might be, you know, so much. Um, but I'm not sure that I felt completely safe with my mom's emotions either or my dad's to be honest, and I can't imagine having a conversation with them of any of this when, when, when, when I went through the things I went through, there's, I still haven't talked to my mom.
I'm going to have to now, but it's an interesting thing that I'm wondering if you see that thread. amongst women, or if you get that deep into their story, where you're hearing maybe they didn't feel so safe at home with their emotions. Yes. The other thing that I was going to say, though, is like, even if I said this to my child every day, the, the part about loving them, it still does not make them immune to a predator.
There's nothing you can do to make anyone predator immune. You know what I mean? Like, we've all been groomed by something, even if it wasn't about sex. ideas of surrounding sex. You've been groomed about products that you bought that weren't good for you. Like, we've all been susceptible to brainwashing.
So really all you can do is try to help your child know how loved they are so that if a bad thing happens to them, they at least maybe feel like they can talk to you about it, you know? Yes. And even then if they decide to not talk to you, maybe they decide to talk to a different family member, you know, trying to Cultivate that environment for communication because mistakes are going to happen if, if adults don't even know how to combat predators, how is a child supposed to know how to combat a predator?
You know what I mean? Like, if adults don't understand how grooming works, how is a child supposed to understand how grooming works? And even after you understand all of this stuff, stuff. It can still possibly happen to you. Like there's no, you know, sanitized version of life where you have not been exploited or your vulnerabilities and innocence have not been taken from you in some kind of accidental way before you hit 21 period.
Is that terrifying? Yes. Can you still talk to your kids about how much you love them? And also even just like, you know, when I was in AA, I saw parents bring their kids to AA so they could hear firsthand how drugs and alcohol affected them long term. And it definitely impacted those kids, you know? So I don't know if it's one of those things where it's like you help your kids at an age appropriate time, hear the stories of survivors, you know what I mean?
In like non graphic ways where they can understand like what this looks like inside so that they can go, Oh, that sounds similar to me. Oh, they felt bad in this area and that I also feel bad in this area. You know what I mean? I don't, I don't know what that looks like, but I think having more open dialogue, assessing The stories were being told about women, um, femalehood, all this stuff, you know what I mean?
I think that is also very impactful, but there's, I wish there was like an approach that would 100 percent protect your kids, but every kid's different. That's why you have to have different parenting techniques, you know what I mean? Like one kid responds to one thing, the other kid freaking hates it and does drugs over it, you know what I mean?
There's parents who've literally done everything perfect by the books. I'm just saying, and the people use drugs because their parents were too good of parents. How do you freaking, like, what world are we living in when they're like, my childhood was just too good, we had too much money, and I had to do the math.
You know, like, people will find an excuse to ruin their lives, too. That is so true. You know, there's no blanket approach. But if you're tuned into your kids, if you're talking to your kids, you will notice the red flags, you will notice the changes. And then fight for that. Fight for their lives. Fight for their innocence.
Do what you can. But like, every single battle looks different. You know? Period. Do you want kids? Yes, but they will grow up in a closet. They will grow up in a closet. No, I don't know. I do want kids, um, I think it's an act of faith to have kids in today's world. Like, it is, but I want to have that act of faith.
Um, yeah, but it will be terrifying for sure. But it'll be so rewarding. Hopefully. That'll be the best thing you do. Best thing that is in my life with my kids. I will say that it was so funny because, Our kids are just two different personalities and they're seven years apart. So we would learn from the first one.
He's like the guinea pig. Okay, we did that wrong. So we try a new approach with the younger one and say, okay, you will not get in trouble as long as you tell us the truth. He is really smart. So he'd come home. Guess what I did tonight. Ah, tell the truth. And, and then the older kid would be like, why isn't he in trouble?
I'm like, well, we made a deal. Uh, we said, if you told us the truth, and so he would just come home and tell us the most horrific things. And we'd be like, that's amazing. That's actually kind of amazing. And we didn't know what to do. I will say the one thing, cause I work with a guy who goes into schools to talk to kids about digital trafficking.
Um, and with the, he does different age appropriate presentations and with the really little kids, the main thing he pushes is how if someone's telling you to be a secret keeper, tell your parents. That is a huge aspect to predators. It doesn't work if the child's not keeping it a secret. And I find this interesting in our schools right now, and I'm not going to get too political, but it is an interesting thing, I don't know if you guys are aware of what's happening, but they are asking children to keep secrets about their new identity, and I find that fascinating, that The people who we're entrusting our kids with are not only encouraging, but participating in a way that teaches children to be groomed in many ways.
Yeah. I'm also not going to get too political. Uh, but there's a documentary called Whose Children Are They? Mm hmm. It's literally like the first half of the documentary is them interviewing people from socialist societies who now live in America, and they're like, this is a socialist thing. The government raises the children in a socialist society.
The government's the parent. Well, and they want to be, it sounds like. I mean, people in the government, they come, they're coming out and saying it. It's not even a secret. Yeah. The man, they go into all of it. There is a dude, I'm bad at remembering names, but he basically started like the school board association and he loved Russia and he loved socialism and like openly talked about it.
And that's like the roots. Well, I guess we, we see what's happening. And so if we can confuse their children's identity and who they should go to for their safety and security, I guess. They're going to win that generation. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's one of those things where I know if some people are like, Oh, like, don't talk about too many adult things, you know, like let your kids like enjoy their childhood, I guess, but there's so much adult stuff around them, like all the time anyway, like it's crazy.
Like, do you not discuss it when it's something they're observing in school and through their friends phones? Do you just not discuss it? Because they're seeing it, they're hearing about it. Well, you know, I cannot remember this. statistic used on another podcast, but it was about the age that kids are showing these images.
Can you remind us of that? I don't know the actual statistic, but if I had to guess, I was about to say, if I had to guess, I was going to say five. Yes. It's the first time kids are seeing porn. Yeah. And, um, so one of my good friends, her name's Heidi Olson. She has an organization called Paradigm Shift. She is a forensic nurse and she assesses kids coming into the ER who are reporting rape or sex trauma of some kind.
One thing that, a phenomenon that she honed in on, and she was the first one in the entire United States to, to call this out, but she saw that kids were assaulting other kids because they were watching porn. The porn was showing them how to have sex, and most of these kids were in middle school, early middle school, late elementary school.
Okay, so if you think porn is benign, here's our proof. Right. Here's our proof. Yeah. If you think porn isn't affecting men, grown men with testosterone, Yeah. Look what it's doing to children. Right, and kids are choking each other. You know what I mean? Like, assaulting each other because they think that's what sex is.
So, you can act like it's normal and fine as an adult, but if you recognize how sad it is for kids to be doing it, why do I think that's how adults should be having sex, because they're fine with it. You know what I mean? I'm, I'm, like, I guess it's like, do whatever you want, but I just find it hard to believe that there aren't some sort of ripple effects internally when you're having sex like that all the time.
That there isn't some sort of yearning in your soul for intimacy and love and gentleness real connection. You know what I mean? Yeah, through sex. Like, I, I find it very hard to believe. So, I'm a cynic. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Is there anything else you want to share with us that we might have missed?
I guess my last thought is just like, really, I feel like I've said this, but just to summarize, like, where are you teaching yourself about love if you're not a Christian? More power to you, I guess. Um, but like where are you teaching yourself about love? Where are you learning about love? If it's only through porn and through movies that sort of demoralize women and like propagate these sorts of ideas, are you allowing yourself to absorb any new kinds of stories?
You know what I mean? Are you giving yourself a variance of examples of love? Or are you really just absorbing one type of story about love all the time? And that's why it feels normal to you. Just like asking yourself that question. I think it's okay to ask that question. And I hope that you do. Thank you.
And I, I will say that I've been on a journey to finding love for many years and I keep thinking I've got it and God just keeps me showing me more. So if you are looking for appropriate and really fulfilling love, seek God. He'll show you. I mean, I just asked him, show me what love was. And he just keeps showing up and showing me more and more and more.
And it's, it's an overwhelming. love that the world could never have given me or shown me. So I, I say, ask, pray, seek, knock, do, do, do this thing. And you'll, he'll show up. Cause he's just good that way. He always shows up. Can you tell us a little bit about the red circle project and what that is? Sure. Yeah.
Red circle project is something that I started because what I've found between my own story and the other stories of survivors is that oftentimes, especially when you're, Coming out of long term grooming and long term abuse, which is very different than, um, a one time experience of assault. You know, not all sex trauma is exactly the same, but when you've endured long term abuse or long term grooming and brainwashing, what I've found is that Oftentimes, there's addiction to abuse going on.
There are cycles of abuse that happen. And in that, there's a lot of shame for survivors because when we are rescued from our abuse, especially if the abuse occurred as a child, people want to sort of put you on a pedestal and they want your story to be a story of success. They want everything to be okay afterwards in your life to go on being perfect after that because we tend to worship Survivors and put them on pedestals, which is also very unhealthy for them.
Trauma obviously produces a lot of ramifications internally and a lot of those can produce addiction and many unhealthy habits. And so I started Red Circle Project because I want to help educate people on these cycles of addiction in an attempt to break them and stories and the stories that we tell ourselves, the ideas we have about ourselves as women and people tend to keep us in those cycles of abuse.
And many times when the cycles of abuse are going on, the survivors are not telling people. about these cycles of addiction, these addic these addictive cycles to unhealthy and abusive relationships because there's shame involved. And I want to, women to know really that there's someone that they can talk to about those cycles of abuse.
That's one reason I started my YouTube channel, Erin's Journal, is to just have educational videos that women can also watch to really sort of ask themselves better questions about maybe why those cycles of abuse are going on. That's so awesome. I've watched many of your shows. They're great. Um, and it's E H R E N S journal on YouTube.
And we'll also put the link in the description. Um, is there a way they could, after watching this, that they could donate to you to help you keep going? These videos coming and this help so I currently don't take donations But I do have a donation page for the stop trafficking project because I personally want the money to go to him Um, so I work with the stop trafficking project.
The president is rust huddle He goes around to schools within currently right now, missouri and kansas and educates kids kids in age appropriate ways on how to deal with being digitally trafficked. And if I could be in the schools doing that with him, that's what I would honestly be doing. Um, so I, there is a way to donate to Russ specifically on my website, redcircleproject.
com because he, I believe just has a better use of the funds right now and I want to help kids in that way. Oh, that's awesome. We'll make sure we put that in there as well. So please donate. Yeah. It helps a lot. Really, really good cause. So thank you so much for joining me today. I'm, I had such a great time.
I feel like we could probably do two more hours, but talking about rape. I love you. I still love you. So thank you. Uh, make sure to like, and subscribe. It helps us out, bring more content, bring people like Aaron to our home so we can film and have fun, maybe some donuts. Thank you.