Mat Osman: Author of The Ghost Theatre

This week, Jack is joined by author and musician Mat Osman. Mat is the founding member of the British rock band Suede.

In 2020 his first novel The Ruins was released and this year it was followed by his hotly anticipated second book The Ghost Theatre which was chosen as a book of the year 2023 by The Observer, The Times and The Evening Standard.

Purchase The Ghost Theatre

(0:27) Introduction
(1:02) A love letter to theatre
(17:19) Writing historical fiction
(21:55) London allure
(24:28) Childhood reading
(36:30) Writing habits
(43:21) The Ghost Theatre

Welcome to Mostly Books Meets, a weekly podcast by the independent award-winning bookshop, Mostly Books. Nestled in the Oxfordshire town of Abingdon-on-Thames, Mostly Books has been spreading the joy of reading for fifteen years. Whether it’s a book, gift, or card you need the Mostly Books team is always on hand to help. Visit our website.

The podcast is produced and presented by Jack Wrighton and the team at Mostly Books. It is edited by Story Ninety-Four. Find us on Twitter @mostlyreading & Instagram @mostlybooks_shop.

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Jack Wrighton is a bookseller and social media manager at Mostly Books. His hobbies include photography and buying books at a quicker rate than he can read them.
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The Ghost Theatre is published in the UK by Bloomsbury


Books mentioned in this episode include:
Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders - ISBN: 9781408871775
The Crimson Petal and the White by Michel Faber - ISBN: 9781782114413
Fingersmith by Sarah Waters - ISBN: 9780349017464

To find more titles, visit our website

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Mostly Books

Award-winning indie bookshop in Abingdon, Oxfordshire.

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[00:00:00] Jack Wrighton: Welcome to Mostly Books Meets, the weekly podcast for the incurably bookish. We will be talking to authors and creatives from across the world of publishing and discussing the books they have loved. Looking for a recommendation? Then look no further. Head to your favourite cosy spot and let us pick out your next favourite book.
On today's episode of the podcast, it is my great pleasure to welcome author and musician Mat Osman. Mat is the founding member of the British Rock Band Suede. In 2020 his first novel The Ruins was released and this year it was followed by his hotly anticipated second book The Ghost Theatre which was chosen as a book of the year 2023 by The Observer, The Times and The Evening Standard.
It is a gorgeously evocative and rich story set in the grand houses and dirty streets of Elizabethan London. Mat, welcome to Mostly Books Meets.
[00:00:55] Mat Osman: Hello, Jack. Lovely to be here.
[00:00:57] Jack Wrighton: Our pleasure. Reading The Ghost Theatre, Mat, I feel there's a great love for theatre and performance for it, even when exploring the kind of the darker sides of that.
Would you say that's fair to say? Was there a great, when you were writing this, were you thinking of kind of the power of theatre? Because that's one thing that really struck me from some of the scenes in this book.
[00:01:17] Mat Osman: Totally. I mean, I'm always interested in performance. You know, a performer most of my adult life and it's one of those things that you come to with training whatsoever. And you learn to kind of negotiate this way of acting purely through trial and error. I've always been interested in the idea that we all have to pretend to be other people in our everyday life.
We all have a work persona and you know, kind of like a holiday persona. We all have these things, but there are certain people for whom Their identities are kind of, they're so blurred, you know, the great actors, they have to inhabit these roles. You know, they have to feel the feelings that it has to be true for them.
And I'm endlessly fascinated by what that does to you, what happens when you pretend to be something else. all of your life. So, you know, in the book, I mean, you have actors, but you also, you have women pretending to be men to get a job. You have people pretending to be more well born than they are to get on.
And, you know, it's a, I think a theme that runs through the book, that we all perform and what are the costs of that?
[00:02:36] Jack Wrighton: And of course, it's something I think people are endlessly Fascinated with. 'cause you know, we all in some way consume performance and people love talking about, you know, particularly, let's say actors. All I heard they really got lost in this role. We love those stories of kind of backstage. Oh, he or she, they never left character.
They, you know, they kept doing the accent. We kind of fascinated by the, this idea of becoming of not just performing, but becoming.
[00:03:05] Mat Osman: yeah, you know, it's about transformation, and it's about transformation in an age when it was almost impossible to transform yourself, you know, the social structure was really stratified, you know, kind of with royalty and the landed gentry, you have this incredible listing of kind of baronets and lords all these things.
It's very, you know, and you're born into those, but also right through the kind of working classes and stuff. I spent a lot of time looking at kind of what people actually wore in those times. And there's this fascinating thing that there are certain colors you couldn't wear if you were working class.
You know, you couldn't wear purple unless you were a landowner. These very strange kind of delineations that, that went on. So, you know, there were only two kinds of freedom for the working class people of the And there's the theatre. you know, when they suddenly could be kings. And then the Saturnalia, which happens once a year when the servants rule the big houses and the owners have to be the servants for a day, which was a kind of, it's a kind of Tudor letting off of steam, you know, it's a safety valve against rebellion.
And part of the book is about what if you decided that You were going to take Saturnalia every day, you know what I mean? What if you decided one day it just isn't enough?
[00:04:26] Jack Wrighton: Yes, that single instance, you know, doesn't can kind of break its boundaries
[00:04:32] Mat Osman: characters in the book, they get a taste for it,
[00:04:35] Jack Wrighton: Yes, yeah, absolutely. And it is, yeah, it is interesting to think of that, that this kind of inbuilt pressure valve as you say, you know, because that structure was so rigid that there had to be some places where people could release all the kind of the tensions from the year because it must have been such a, you know, it's obvious that you did a lot of research to write this because it is so evocative reading it.
People must have felt so constrained by that. And there's a lovely scene where You know, we meet Queen Elizabeth I, and there's even a sense that she feels that, she feels penned in by this structure that almost no one can escape.
[00:05:14] Mat Osman: Exactly, you know, I mean, she's a woman in what's still a hugely male you know what I mean? There's a glass ceiling, even if you're right. you know, it's quite a strange feeling, I think, and talking about kind of like safety valve, one of the things I didn't really realize was quite how violent and righteous Elizabethan life was because we have this thing that history is written.
by the victors. So we see it as this kind of unbroken kind of steps of royalty. And, you know, we talk about it in terms of the people who ruled at the time. But the apprentices, you know, the majority of working class male youths were constantly rioting, constantly setting London fire, constantly, you know, having huge pitched battles like football hooligans across the street.
And there were instances where it came very close to being Anarchy. And those think, get forgotten, you know, because we're almost always looking at the very top end of society and the gowns and the masks and the pageantry. You forget that this was a society where there were heads on sticks outside London Bridge, just to remind you when you crossed, you know what I mean?
The big kind of competitor for going to see a Shakespeare play was with bear baiting. You know, this was your choice of an evening. It was an incredibly violent and rebellious time that I think has almost been glossed over.
[00:06:46] Jack Wrighton: Absolutely, and it's funny, isn't it? Because I feel people will, I don't know, in the world of kind of games, movies, and things like that, people will talk as if our age, you know, people are kind of subjected to, or with 24 hour news, for kind of, violence all the times but in some ways for many it's a kind of virtual violence it's either virtual in the game world or it's on the news and therefore it takes on a kind of a 2d quality whereas yeah you really get a sense that this was a time where violence was just Every day, it was something, you know, your boss could be beating you or kind of others in front of you.
You know, violence was part of kind of the landscape of the
[00:07:25] Mat Osman: Totally. And then you went home and consumed for entertainment. More violence. You I mean, a lot of Elizabethan plays are incredibly bloody.
[00:07:36] Jack Wrighton: mm,
[00:07:36] Mat Osman: They would never pass any... censor today, really. And then, as I say, you know, kind of like basically animal torture was a huge thing.
Lions fighting dogs and, you know, bears against wolves all these kind of things.
[00:07:52] Jack Wrighton: Yes, it was you wonder if it's a, you know, to kind of get away from the violence being enacted on you that, you
[00:07:59] Mat Osman: think,
[00:07:59] Jack Wrighton: know.
[00:07:59] Mat Osman: I think it's entirely that. Everyone is kind of hitting down. You know, it's right, who is left to pick on? It's just kind of the very lowest of the low. And it's, you know, animals were, they weren't pets at the time, really. possessions, so they were the bottom of that.
[00:08:16] Jack Wrighton: And it's interesting because then the theatre in that, you know, particularly in the book then becomes, because you know, there's something quite sad to think about human nature kind of immediately. You know, if you're oppressed, then the only kind of release is to kind of, well, who's beneath me? You know, can I sort of punch down to them?
But it feels like the theatre in this kind of then puts the question of Oh, but what if that went? the other way, you what, what would happen if we actually turn that lens around towards, you know, your oppressor?
[00:08:46] Mat Osman: Yeah, and I think it's difficult to remember quite how modern... This kind of theatre was at the time, you know, the huge explosion that happened with kind of like Shakespeare and Kit Marlow and Ben Johnson and all these people. It's only 15 years old at this point. There's obviously been theater for years, but a lot of it is quite, it's very stylized.
It's kind of commedia dell'arte and pantomime and things like that. And then suddenly you have this huge explosion of a very sophisticated storytelling, where you know, weaving in lots of different themes and different characters and all these things. But at the time it was truly modern and Londoners went absolutely mad for it.
Two thirds of Londoners went to the theater. It was like Netflix or it was like the internet arriving. It was. Ultra modern. It was totally captivating. You know, the Puritan side of London was constantly trying to close down the theatres because they thought it took away time from people who should be learning to shoot bows and arrows.
But also there's something anarchic about it and something rebellious about it. You know, kind of men are dressing as women, boys are dressing as kings. There's a sense of possibility and magic to it that people intrinsically knew. Was dangerous right from the start.
[00:10:12] Jack Wrighton: Yes, it's almost and I'm sure it was to the Puritans, sort of almost dangerously pagan, you know,
[00:10:18] Mat Osman: Oh, of course.
[00:10:20] Jack Wrighton: coming other things, and yes, the, you know, the gender bending, which certainly for the theatre at the time was incredibly commonplace and the standard,
[00:10:28] Mat Osman: you had to be you had to be male to appear on stage it was as as that unless you were singing something then you might get away with being a girl But if you're acting, you know You're a man or a boy
[00:10:41] Jack Wrighton: therefore, you know, dressing up and it was all part of it, and I'm sure they, I'm sure the Puritans saw that and thought, we can't have this, hence, you know, Cromwell
[00:10:50] Mat Osman: Yeah, and it's, I mean, it's, but it's no different from today. I mean, this is the obvious thing with any historical novel. You know, you look at drag shows being banned in the States and it's not what's happening, it's what they represent.
[00:11:04] Jack Wrighton: Absolutely.
[00:11:06] Mat Osman: It's the sense of kind of fluidity and anarchy that's scary.
But rather, you know, the pantomime dames dress up as women all the time. No one's kind of worried
[00:11:17] Jack Wrighton: exactly. And you know, and, you know, with something like drag shows, there's obviously a whole spectrum, you know, you can get the stuff that's obviously very, you know, geared towards an adult audience, but also the stuff that's, you know, it's practically just someone in a frock kind of, you know, singing along to a song that they really enjoy, is quite, you know, which is quite, you know, innocent and joyful.
Yeah. And yet it's given this kind of, you know, when you hear these, people speak out against it, you know, you would you know, you would think it, it was a drama that had crawled straight from hell to, you know, to torment the world, you know, it's yeah. We'll go back to the ghost theatre later, but looking at kind of your influences now and things like that, one thing that really struck me is the language in it, it's a really beautiful, and, you know, I when I use the word evocative it's true, your descriptions of kind of the time, the place, you know, they really do take you there, as well As music has language always been something that from a young age you've enjoyed and you've kind of sort kind of release in.
[00:12:20] Mat Osman: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think one of the things about growing up as a musician, you're very aware of kind of the power of words. You know, especially through song lyrics and the sense that everything is doubled, you know, everything, everything has a meaning, but it has a sound to it as well, you know, and growing up in a band and listening to music.
There's lots of lyricists I really who I'm never quite sure what the song is about, and I don't really care about that. You know what I mean? There's the kind of, I guess, people like Ian McCullough and the Money Men. You know, he writes things like The Killing Moon. I've absolutely no idea what it's about.
But it, there's a poetry to it that brings an emotion out. The reason for writing fiction is you're not just passing on information. It's not just a case of, I'm gonna tell you a story of something that happened. You're trying to, you're trying to evoke emotion. And a lot of that is, is through the sound of the words and the way that they kind of flow and the, you know, even silly things like the length of the sentence and just making things read properly.
So yeah, it's always been really important to me and I read the first the audio book of my first book. And knowing I was going to have to do that was a really helpful thing to me because I realized that if you read out loud and if you speak out loud, you catch. really good things, but also really bad things about the prose.
And nowadays it's a bit boring, but I do, before I put something down as a final draft, I read it aloud to myself. It takes a week and I read it aloud to myself and you can just tell what's working and what's not working.
[00:14:12] Jack Wrighton: And it's funny, isn't it, that because we get so used to you know, particularly being from the world of books as the written word, but there definitely is always a relationship between that and the spoken word. And, you know, many authors talk about, you know, they might sort of read it out loud to themselves.
And particularly now, I feel there's a boom in kind of the interest in audiobooks as well. We now have people talking about, Oh, I really, you know, I really love this book. Oh, but you know, this audio recording, I prefer this. And storytelling is still in many ways, even in the world of books, a kind of a performance and performance adds something to that.
[00:14:49] Mat Osman: Totally, and every now and then an audio book will transform something. I'd listen to Lincoln in the Bardo, George Saunders book. And I loved the book, I thought it was astounding. But the audio book is something else entirely. Because there's multiple voices. And it's not a theatre piece, you know, it's not, it doesn't pretend.
That you're there it's a reading of it. But because you have a chorus in that book, the way it transforms it is something, it just makes it more rich, it deepens So yeah, I'm always aware of that side of it.
[00:15:27] Jack Wrighton: And you can hear it in, you know, certain books as well. Cause I remember I I listened to the audio book of the Crimson Petal and the White and what, you know, what a book. And that has that, you know, famous sort of opening line where it's being directed at you, you know, come with me, I'll take you through London.
And suddenly when you've got someone saying that in your. You know, is really does add something where there have been experiences I've had where I've listened to an audio book and I thought, well, I'm not sure about this book, but then when I've picked it up it, you know, it does, you know, there are some books that kind of work in the cerebral kind of, it's just your, you know, you building the pictures, which is so interesting because it maybe feels like an area that, you know, As people, you know, listen to more audiobooks, might, you know,
[00:16:11] Mat Osman: Well, I'm always interested in sound and when I'm writing a scene, I'm always imagining what would you hear at these times, you know. You know that if you can put in, you know, an evocation of what you might hear or what you might smell or something like that, it just puts you in that place in a way that just describing what you see never does, you know what I I think it makes it feel... I have a problem with a lot of historical fiction that always feels that it's out of remove. And it's difficult, I think, to make the characters feel... Like you could meet them, talk to and be part of them, you know. It's something I've worked quite hard at trying to imagine.
That people don't change that much. Their situations change hugely. But I think, you know, we would recognize people of the Elizabethan time. We would be friends with certain people and not like other people. They're not just... Pawns to be moved around the board, their personalities with flaws and with kind of joys to them as well.
[00:17:19] Jack Wrighton: What you were saying about historical fiction and that remove, do you think that partially comes from a kind of a mindset of the historian? Which, you know, is, I think, in the ideal seen as this you know, slightly sort of objective, at a remove. character, which of course isn't the truth, you know, people have, you know, different views of history.
And is that why, because of course we're, we are in, you know, clearly a sort of a fictionalized version of Elizabethan London here. Is that, as a writer for you, does that help you kind of get more in there because you're not worried about, you know, full historical accuracy and you can sort of get in there with the people?
[00:17:56] Mat Osman: Yeah, totally. And it's what works for me. I'm not saying that all historical fiction should be like this, but what I liked about setting it in kind of Elizabethan times was more about the gaps in our knowledge. than our actual knowledge, you know. I would find little, you know, little nuggets of stuff, you know, the Blackfriars Boys, the actors in the book, are real, you know.
It totally happened, there was the Blackfriars Theatre, Evans owned it. The names that are used, apart from none such, are the names of the actual boys. They were kidnapped to appear on stage. There's a very famous court case where a kind of quite highborn man goes to court to get his son back from the Blackfriars.
And we never know what happened because we don't have the verdict. But because often they were being taken to perform a court and kind of royal masks, I don't think he had a leg to stand on. But What was interesting to me was that we had these characters, we had these people, but their story had never been told.
We don't anything about them, bar their names. So I had to imagine that. And all the way through the book, there's lots of stuff like this where it's sparked by something historical. know, Evans did own the first glass house in London. I think it was probably a greenhouse
[00:19:22] Jack Wrighton: Right.
[00:19:23] Mat Osman: Rather than a kind of Venetian palace, but who knows, you know?
[00:19:26] Jack Wrighton: Yes. Yeah.
[00:19:27] Mat Osman: so lots of it was taking, you know, jumping off points from history, but then not trying to be too slavish about it.
It's fiction. It's a story.
[00:19:38] Jack Wrighton: Yes, I was the scene in the book where we sort of witness briefly one of these abductions. You know, I remember thinking, oh, you know, sort of being shocked by it and being, oh goodness, you know, this poor, you know, this poor boy. And then I read. The Guardian interview and saying that, you know, part of the kind of catalyst for this idea was a BBC documentary, you know, about the reality of this.
And I, I accepted it in the book 100 percent, but then to, you know, fully have confirmed that this was a real thing. And I feel like why, I feel like when we learn about these times at school, that would be, you know, a kind of a use, a kind of interesting
[00:20:16] Mat Osman: It would be fascinating, wouldn't it? Because I mean, I think like most people, I'm always projecting myself back. I'm always thinking, how would I have dealt with these times, do you know what mean? One of the reasons I talk about actors in this book and messengers is I had a very ordinary upbringing. You know, I wouldn't have been royal. So what would I have been doing? And, you know, possibly on stage or running errands, you know, basically a paper round.
[00:20:46] Jack Wrighton: That's a good question to ask because I think people are biased, you know, in the sense that they... You know, we love to imagine we would be at court, and we would be dressed in the fine clothes, but reality is we would have short, quite grim lives.
[00:21:01] Mat Osman: Yeah, cleaning mittens, probably, you know.
[00:21:04] Jack Wrighton: yeah, exactly. And so it's, you know, it's fun to then explore those areas of, you know, who could escape.
Where could you find, you know, kind of a different life? And as you were saying, that kind of theatre was...
[00:21:17] Mat Osman: But because it is that thing, I assume there would have been people like me who yearned for a more exciting life, a more, a less kind of pre planned life. You know, I don't think people change that much. So I know there must have been the equivalence of me in those times. There must have been the equivalence of the Sex Pistols.
in those times. There must have been the equivalent of, you know, Salvador Dali. You know, these instincts, they don't change. We have them. And it was, it's interesting to me to see, you know, how might that have happened.
[00:21:55] Jack Wrighton: And would you say that kind of desire to kind of, you know, leave something maybe a bit more exciting, was that channeled into Shaye, who obviously, you know, she's from this actually very sort of idyllic, you know, the way, you know, depicts Birdland, you know, at the beginning, you know, feels, you know, so beautiful.
And I think particularly to contemporary readers, when we think of what's been lost in terms of nature and kind of the natural environment. Oh, you know, this sounds lovely, but she has this desire for the city. The city sort of pulls her in. Did that come from quite a personal space, would you say?
[00:22:30] Mat Osman: Oh, yeah, totally. I was obsessed with moving to London about the age of 12, you always, you know, I mean, I grew up not far away. I grew up in Hayworth Heath, which is about kind of 40 miles
[00:22:42] Jack Wrighton: Mm. Okay.
[00:22:43] Mat Osman: but London was the promised land, you know, and still is in the sense, you know, I've lived here 35 years and I absolutely love it.
I think I, I love the city in the city. The way that only someone who wasn't born here can. You know what I mean?
[00:22:59] Jack Wrighton: Yes.
[00:23:00] Mat Osman: still feels I still feel slightly that I shouldn't be allowed to be wandering around. know, you can wander around Westminster, and you can wander through the Inns of Court and all these places.
It still feels slightly transgressive to me that I'm allowed to be here. I'm eternally grateful that I wasn't born here because I think then you just take it for granted in
[00:23:22] Jack Wrighton: Mm. Mm.
[00:23:23] Mat Osman: Lovely about London is no one's from here. You know what I mean? I mean, I'm surrounded by people who call themselves Londoners.
And I think I know two people who were actually born in the But what's great about that is it means people chose the city. They're not here by accident. People come here because of work, or because of art, or because of excitement, you know, it's a city that we're kind of constantly, all of us are imagining every day, and I think there's something great about that.
[00:23:57] Jack Wrighton: Yeah, it is absolutely a kind of both reality, but
[00:24:02] Mat Osman: Yeah,
[00:24:02] Jack Wrighton: imagined
[00:24:03] Mat Osman: A mass hallucination.
[00:24:05] Jack Wrighton: Yes, yeah. One day we'll all wake up and it will just be Marshland again and, and in terms of books yourselves, you know, both writing this but just for you as a person, you know, are there any titles whether from when you were a child or kind of more recently that kind of really stand out to you as books that have kind of loomed large in your mind that have stayed with you?
[00:24:28] Mat Osman: Well It's funny because you mentioned beforehand about children's books. And I was thinking to myself, I don't really remember any of them, you know.
[00:24:37] Jack Wrighton: Yeah.
[00:24:37] Mat Osman: But then I was thinking, I mean the first thing that I can really remember absolutely loving were the Sherlock Holmes stories. I can remember finding, my parents had a copy, and it was the only kind of like cloth bound.
book. We had lots of kind of like paperbacks of you know, quite trashy Jackie Collins kind of stuff. And then there was this book. And I assumed it was actually from Victorian times. It probably wasn't. It was probably from like 1950 or something, but because it was the only old book and I kind of absolutely devoured it.
And I thought at the time that it was mainly about. I mean, they're incredible characters, you Sherlock Holmes is one of the great literary characters of all time. I think especially if you're quite bookish, and I wasn't particularly sporty or anything to have a hero who just uses his mind. and always wins is quite satisfying.
But I look back on it now and I wonder how much of it that I really loved was about London.
There's some of the great London books. They're up there with Dickens in the sense that What's fabulous about Holmes is he goes everywhere, you know what I mean, he goes to opium dens, and he goes to palaces.
He's almost entirely classless. It's weird when you think about Victorian society, he kind of sits in the middle of all of these things, and he takes on cases that are interesting. And, as with kind of Shakespeare, what's... Often really interesting about the books is not the big central plots or anything.
It's the detail of the world that they move through. You know, I found with the ghost theatre it was really useful to go to Shakespeare plays. Not for the big stuff. But just the kind of things they assumed about how men and women acted between themselves and where you should live in London and things like, all these little things that kind of told you what people actually thought.
The Holmes books, I reread them recently, and I'd forgotten what a brilliant writer about. London, he was, you know, the characters, they're always on the move. They're always getting cabs here and there or walking around and it's always accurate. You always know that it's not an intellectual exercise. You know that he's walked those and he knows what it looks like and what it feels like.
So, yeah, I mean, late for a children's book, you know, that was in my teens. But they were the first thing that I think that actually kind of captivated me.
[00:27:21] Jack Wrighton: You know, that's always a question that when we ask, you know, I've had people turn around and say, oh, I didn't read until I was older. And actually, I. You know, games or some other medium were kind of the, you know, my creative outlet. Because I think some authors have been, you know, shy to say that because I think they feel they have to say, oh, you know, I was and I picked up War and Peace and I loved it.
I've still got my notes. Yes, yeah you know, actually, you know, that's not the case at all. And even in the world of bookshops, you know, people are sort of shy to say, oh, actually I'm only really getting into reading now. You know, I say that was the case for me. I was very dyslexic as a kid. You know, I, books were just a kind of a sort of a jumble for me, whereas now, you know, it's a huge part of my life.
But it's, yeah, interesting what you say about Holmes and London as a character itself.
[00:28:11] Mat Osman: Yeah.
[00:28:13] Jack Wrighton: And always, when you talked about the movement, that just made me think just of the three books that have been mentioned, Sherlock Holmes Crimson Petal and the White, which of course is very, you know, Very based in London.
And then your book as well is movement is a big part of it. You know, the characters are always moving somewhere. They're always going to another place. And London is a city of movement. You know, Shea moves across the rooftops. No one's staying still. You can't stay still.
[00:28:41] Mat Osman: Yeah, no, I mean, that's kind of vital to me. I had a map open at all times. When I was writing the book, making sure that it all made sense, that if she was taking a message, this is the way she'd go. And looking at what was next to each other and how things were laid out. But it's interesting that you mention Crimson Petal and The White because Michelle Faber's really important.
for me, not just because of his books and the Crimson Petal and the white was definitely for me, it was a book that kind of looked under the carpet of London. It takes the Victorian novel and. and strips out all of the kind of sentimentality and, you know, I mean, I love Dickens, but he can be very sentimental quite pious and this isn't at all.
It's brutal, you know, and that was really, that was important to me to try and get the kind of, the cruelty of London, you know, and how rough it could be. But he's also really important to me because I love authors who play with genre and aren't trapped by genre. You know, I love people like David Mitchell and Sandra Newman and Ian Banks even, you know, who can move between these things and take what's best from them.
I can remember reading The Scarlet Petal and The White and thinking, oh right, this is the kind of author I'd like to be. I'd like to have written under the skin. Which is one of my favorite books of all time. One of the most extraordinary, you know, takes every genre, you know, science fiction and crime and whatever, and smashes it up.
And then moves to this completely different book. I mean, the deepest themes are the same. They're about, it's about connection.
To be able to kind of play with genres like that and not be kind of constricted. By the kind of books you write was really important to me, you know, and even when I was kind of looking for agents, the fact that the Victoria, my agent had represented Sanja Newman, who'd written like a doorstop post apocalyptic.
fantasy book. Then a time travelling, kind of, Elizabethan London to, kind of, about 20 years in the future book. She's now rewritten 1984 from Julia's perspective. Everything about that really excites me. You know, it's kind of, I don't want to get bogged down in, in And I like to kind of steal things from here, there and everywhere.
[00:31:27] Jack Wrighton: Absolutely. And, you know, that's something to be treasured because that's quite, you know, rare in today's world. We love, you know, we love we love a category, you know, we love to go, oh, this person does this and...
[00:31:40] Mat Osman: Well, I think in publishing especially, you it's kind of, it's a real straitjacket, I think. And the way in which books are marketed, you know, the kind of every book has variations on five or six covers that tell you, you know what I mean? If there's a silhouetted man walking through a kind of neon lit alleyway, then it's crime.
You know what I mean? There's something quite reductive about it. I find it quite hard, you know, when I'm told, okay, this is historical fiction. It just seems a bit odd to me. It's just fiction. It happens to be set in that time.
[00:32:17] Jack Wrighton: Yes. And it's something we I'm obviously very biased, but you know, it's something as a bookseller that you try and guide people through and say, Oh, you know, this book, it's being sold as this, but just so know, it has these shades in, for instance, with Crimson Petal and the White, I've recommended it before.
And, you know, I've said to people who, you know, let's say I feel I might have to warn or just so you know, it doesn't shy away from the central character, you know, her job. what that means, you know, and they've come back and loved it. Oh, you know, what else have what else have they written? And then it's funny, it's great to turn around and say, well, there's this alien in Glasgow and you know, and they just sort of look at you because we don't expect that.
We kind of, we're, we expect to kind of, oh, they've basically written a very similar thing which is, you know, which is fine. I think
[00:33:08] Mat Osman: Yeah. I mean, going back to Holmes, when I was growing up, I loved series of books that did the same thing. And the Holmes stories, the shape of them. It's exactly the same every time, and I found that really quite comforting, you know. I just, as I get older, more and more, I want to be kind of surprised by a book.
You know, it's strange. More and more, whenever anyone says to me, Oh, it starts off as one thing and ends up as somewhere else, I'm Oh, right. That sounds good to me. I don't want to know exactly where it's know, I want to be taken somewhere that I didn't expect to go. I was talking last night with someone about Fingersmith.
Talking of historical
[00:33:53] Jack Wrighton: Oh, yes, yep.
[00:33:54] Mat Osman: And just talking about the twist in the middle of it. And just saying it's one of the rare times that I've been reading a book and I've had to physically put it down and just stop and think about what's happened. And I love that. What it does to you... The shock it gives you is incredible.
It's like a jump scare in a horror movie, but for, you know, with a bit of depth to
[00:34:16] Jack Wrighton: Yes. It's, yeah, kind of, there's something very exciting about having, kind of, the carpet
beneath your feet, but in that safe environment, and again, that's something that, you know, fiction shares with, you know, theatre and performance, because you can be at, you know, a performance of Titus Andronicus and seeing all sorts of, kind of, unfold and that can be very shocking and it's a different feeling to the kind of, you know, a book becoming something else but I think it's in the same category of kind of exhilarating but ultimately safe as well because, you it's not real.
[00:34:50] Mat Osman: you're testing yourself in books, aren't you? If you know, relate to the characters, what you're doing is saying, How would I have handled this? You know, would I have survived? You know, would I have got on? Would I have found love? You know, all these kind of massive questions. And it's almost like we...
We only have one life to lead and, you know, books can be a kind of okay, if I'd been this kind of person, what would have happened if I moved to this place? What would have happened? You know, they can be this kind of like petri dishes of other people you could have been, you know, ruins was very much that, you know, it was about you know, a rock star and then a kind of shut in brother who, who was Very emotionally kind of stunted and socially stunted.
And then him having to impersonate his brother and being thrown into this other world. And it's very much, okay, now I'm this kind of person. Can I handle it? Can I become, can I change? Can I be someone else? And I'm always interested in those stories of people being kind of thrown into the deep end and whether the change is good for them or whether they manage it at all.
[00:36:08] Jack Wrighton: Yeah, I suppose it's almost the... It is dreaming, isn't it? You know, I I think, you know, they say dreams are kind of, you know, we test ourselves in situations so we're prepared for whatever life, fiction, storytelling, you know, whatever. It's part of that. Poking yourself anTesting yourself against the world.St
yeah, could you do this and do you find that as a writer as well when you're writing?
Do you almost want to be surprised by where the story goes or are you a plotter? Do you kind of plot out? This is the story and that's what I'll write
[00:36:37] Mat Osman: I really wish I was, because I spend, I waste a load of time. And every time I sit down to write, I say, Okay, this time, what I'm going to do is, I'm going to plot it. all out, you know, and I won't waste a word. And then I just digress, but I'm learning that's all I can do, really. You know, when I started to write The Ghost Theatre, it was about none such.
It was about this male child actor, and it was very Much more psychological and about performance and about what it does to you. And then I needed another viewpoint to kind of see the theatre for the first time and started writing Shay. And I honestly, none of her or what happens to her was planned at all.
The birdland or anything like that. I just wrote. And I wrote and wrote, and it just came out. It's very rare. I mean, normally I'm a bit more planned than that. But yeah, no, it's, I absolutely love that. You know, I write, it's difficult to say it without sounding pretentious, but I kind of write to find out what.
I think about certain things, you know, I'm very aware that lots of my kind of beliefs and stuff are just things that have been knocking around in my head since childhood, and I've never really examined them. And then, when I start writing, I have to actually think about what I think. You know, I have to think about how people will behave and what's the right thing for them to do and the wrong thing for them to do.
And it's often very counterintuitive, you know. They often do what I wouldn't do. But I do love that, you know. I love the pleasure of... I still find at the end of the day, sometimes I'll look back at whatever and I'll be like, well, where the hell did that come from? I'm almost reading it as I'm writing it.
But part of that I think comes from being a musician so long. I've learned to trust. my instincts, you know, I've learned to, you can jam as a musician, you can play around and something will come from it. And I've learned that works. I think often, you know, people who come to fiction for the first time, if they haven't, you don't have an artistic background, they can feel quite Silly.
You know what I mean? You're just making stuff up. And it's only because I've spent my life doing those little things and them into something that is very meaningful for me and for lots of other people that I know that it can be a silly little thing and hugely important at the same time.
[00:39:14] Jack Wrighton: You do. Yeah, you get people who are only nonfiction readers, because nonfiction's real, and that's good, but you do suspect that they're, you know, it's kind of still scratching the same part of the brain of, you know, even reading.
[00:39:29] Mat Osman: It's other lives. It's all voyeurism, isn't it? It's it's, you how do other people live? You know, what do they do? What do they think?
[00:39:37] Jack Wrighton: It's all dress up. And it's interesting you said that about music, because I was going to ask, because it feels to me, and I say that as someone, you know, to my shame, I've never been a musical person, but it does seem to me that both kind of fiction and writing and kind of music, it's a mixture of craft, skill, kind of patience, but also a little bit of kind of alchemy as well, that there's always an element of, oh, well, I didn't know where that, you know, that just came and it was there and I knew it was right.
[00:40:08] Mat Osman: Yeah, I mean, and that's the absolute joy of it. You know, I'm not a kind of, I don't believe in anything supernatural. And it's been quite hard talking to a few people about the book. You know, I don't believe in soothsaying. I don't believe in tarot cards. I don't believe that there is this other realm, but I've seen magic happen in music and writing. You know, for me, those aren't, they're spells. know what I mean? You say these words in a certain order, and you can make people think other things. You know, books have sent people off to war. You know, books have made people do terrible things and incredible things. And that sense, and it is alchemy, you know what I mean?
This huge power that comes from virtually nothing. From the lead of words, you know, comes the gold of kind of emotion. And it's, I always think of it that way. And I think it's what made it easier for me to write. You know what I mean? I think also lots of people give up halfway through writing a novel.
Or even two thirds of the way through, or a quarter of the way through. Because it's not right. And it doesn't feel like it's right. And I think the experience of being in a band where, there's always a point when we're making an album where we're just like, Oh, well, this is just not right, you know what I mean?
We went into the studio too early, or, you know, it just doesn't happen. And it's just the fact that we've always ploughed on, and we've always got there in the end, that kind of gave me the hope when I was writing, and got to that point between two thirds of the way through, and no one's ever going to want to read this.
There's just a little part of you that just goes, just keep going. You know what I mean? What's the worst that could happen, you know? It's always good to be writing. And then just, there's these moments when it just, things click into place and you're suddenly like, alright, this is something.
[00:42:04] Jack Wrighton: it's interesting talking to a lot of authors, you are struck by a sense that for a long time it can be rummaging through bits over here and sort of holding them up to the light and going, you know, how's this, how's that, and then actually it's only really, you know, quite surprisingly close to the end that suddenly those sort of form into a shape and they go, oh, okay, here we go.
[00:42:29] Mat Osman: I'm writing something at the moment, I've been really struggling with it. And I just found myself reading a lot of things and trying to get into the time and place and all these kind of things. And a friend of mine said, Yeah, there's writing time and there's grazing time. And she said, that's what all you're doing now is grazing.
You know, you're taking a bit from here and a bit from here and a bit from here. And, you know, some of it will be good and some of it won't. But you need that kind of weight of... Ideas and characters and kind of places before you can sit down and actually work. So that was really good for me because the ghost theater, I started while I was finishing the ruins.
So for like five, six years, I've had a book on the go that I've known exactly where it's going. So to sit down and actually say, all right, I don't know what I'm doing at the moment, but I'll just have to live with that.
[00:43:21] Jack Wrighton: And we'll see, we'll have to keep an eye out for, yeah, what that may coalesce to. And for those, because I'm aware that, you know, for those listening to the podcast, that, you know, we've alluded to the plot of the Ghost Theatre, but if you, for a moment, wouldn't mind sort of taking on the role of bookseller, and sort of, you know, just, if you were introducing this book to someone, I'm aware to do to an author, it's quite a cruel thing to do to get them to you know, not sell their book, I'm not asking you to sell it, but...
[00:43:49] Mat Osman: you want to mention all of your babies, that's the thing. You know,
[00:43:52] Jack Wrighton: Yes. Yeah.
[00:43:52] Mat Osman: I know I'm gonna leave someone out. It's the story of two child actors in Elizabethan times. One of whom is a kind of dark star of the theatre. Very, quite... arrogant incredibly talented. And the other one is a bird worshipping messenger girl from just outside of London.
And they meet and fall in love. But what they decide to do is to create a new kind of theatre, a kind of guerrilla theatre, that's for the streets. There isn't stories of kings and gods. It's ordinary stories. And in doing that, they start putting on these plays. throughout London in hidden corners and they get this huge following of people who find it this Incredibly rebellious and quite you know, it lights the powder keg of rebellion.
And it's just the story of how far they push these performances, how far they push their relationship, and what gets broken in the process. With a cast of characters that includes, kind of, Queen Elizabeth I, and roving bands of people cutting down the enclosures in the North, and Sackerson from the Shakespeare plays who's a performing bear, and Dr.
John Dee, and all these kind of things. It's it's kind of part adventure, part historical fiction, part love story, part alternate history.
[00:45:23] Jack Wrighton: And would you mind reading a segment for us, for those listening?
[00:45:27] Mat Osman: I will read a segment for you, yeah. This is from quite early on in the book, when Shay, the messenger girl, has gone to the theatre for the first time and has been roped in to be a prompt. And this is the first time she sees the other character act, none such. Conversations were snuffed out with the candles, and there was a weight to the darkness then, like the room had filled with oil.
A wedge of scenery was wheeled onto stage before eyes got used to the dark. There was a last delicious moment of calm before Alouette lit the lamp in front of them. There it was. The prow of a ship cresting and burrowing into waves. Aquamarine silk undulated across the floor. It was at once profoundly unrealistic and utterly beguiling.
Alouette worked bellows laid sideways with a spout angled towards the bow and she sent up a glimmering spray of water. Shae caught the smell of deep sea with no land in sight. The ship curtsied to meet the waves, and when it rose again, none such was on deck with his hands on his hips. He was Cleopatra.
Bird eyed and horse maned. Black silk that captured ripples of sea light and gold at his ankles and wrists. Gold that was too plain for jewellery, but too rich for shackles. He turned a degree so that the light split his face in two. His first line, according to Shay's script, was, The waves know my fate, and Caesar's too.
But he continued to stare out in silence. There was a reverie to it, the creak of wood and the smell of salt, the candlelight and hushed breaths. Shae tugged at Alouette's hem. Should I? But Alouette shook her head. Our hearts are ships. He didn't say it the way she was used to hearing players talk. Rather, he threw the line to the front row of the audience, quietly enough that they had to lean in a little closer.
Our hearts are ships, he said again. And when life's weather is fair, we tell ourselves that we are our hearts captains. It is us who steer the course. We set sail for new lands. He flung his arms wide and turned so that he was almost entirely in darkness. There was the tiniest glint of light from his eyes.
Alouette dimmed the lantern until he was little more than a voice and a gleam of gold. But that's an illusion. When true storms come, they pluck the ships of our heart up and toss them this way and that. We are no captains. Instead, we hang on for dear life, clinging to the mask as the winds rage around us.
He blew out his cheeks against the squall of the spray. His hair was damp and flustered. Our hearts are ships, he said, louder now as Alouette worked the bellows. And tonight, the tempest is here. The storm is upon us. And my heart is lost on a killing sea. Shea looked in vain at her script. Not a word of the speech appeared there.
None such stood taller, extended a hand in blue. Tiny paper boats, as small as thistledown, streamed from his palm. And all over the theatre, hands reached up into the light. And then, in one moment, Alouette killed the lanterns, and a curtain fell. Well, I suppose that was scene one, she said.
[00:48:47] Jack Wrighton: Mat, thank you so much for that lovely reading. That's unfortunately brought us to the end of our conversation, but I want to thank you so much for joining us on our podcast here.
[00:48:58] Mat Osman: Oh, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
[00:49:00] Jack Wrighton: To let everyone know that the Ghost Theatre, it's out now in hardback, it's available at Mostly Books in our store and online or from wherever you decide to purchase your books from.
Mat, thank you so much for joining us on Mostly Books Meets.
[00:49:13] Mat Osman: Thank you very much.
[00:49:16] Jack Wrighton: Mostly Books Meets is presented and produced by the bookselling team at Mostly Books, an award winning bookshop located in Abingdon, Oxfordshire. All of the titles mentioned in this episode are available through our shop or your preferred local independent.
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out our previous guests, which include some of the most exciting voices in the world of books. Thanks for listening, and happy reading.