Season 2 of The Resistbot Podcast, hosted by Melanie Dione, features a different interview every week with an organizer working to create change in their community. We aim to elevate voices without a large platform, focusing on their stories. Our pod is brought to you by the same volunteers behind the Resistbot (https://resist.bot) chatbot that's driven over 30 million pieces of correspondence to elected officials since 2017. If you haven't given it a try, pull out your phone and text the word "resist" to the number 50409 to get started. You can text officials from your Mayor to the President, check your voter registration, start your own campaigns, and much more!
Melanie: Welcome to The Resist Bot Podcast, hosted by me, Melanie Dione. Join me this week and every week as I chat with the advocates and activists in your neighborhood at the intersection where policy meets people. Now, let's start the.
Once again, welcome back to the Resist Bot Podcast. I'm your friendly neighborhood host, Melanie Dione, and I hope that you are having a fantastic week. Some topics that we discuss are just evergreen and the behavior or misbehavior of the. Is one of those topics. Social media gave organizers the ability to not only capture what was happening to them on the ground, but it gave them the ability to capture it in real time so that there was no denying what they were experiencing.
Now in Justin world, that information should have turned the whole thing around. I guess this week knows all too well though that visibility and knowledge do not guarantee automatic cooperation and justice work. We talked about those challenges, both personal and professional and how despite those challenges, the work must continue and we discuss what his organization Campaign Zero is doing to arm people with knowledge as they take on one of the country's most protected groups, the police.
Today it is my pleasure to be here with the Executive Director of Campaign zero, DeRay McKesson. Hi, DeRay.
DeRay: Hey, it is an honor to be here. I feel like I'm a, you know, first time caller, long time listener, whatever they say. I've known you on the inter webs for a long time,
Melanie: right? You get to see me do something productive instead of, um, the other stuff I do on the, we are, I contain multitudes, you know, it's my gift.
But I'm so glad to be here with you cuz I, again, first time call a long time listener on my end too, because I have long been a follower and admirer and so I'm really glad to sit down with you and talk to you because we talked to so many people on VA in varying points of their organizer journey. I wanted to talk to you, I like to talk about where you started and how you got to where you are.
So let's go back, baby DeRay Baltimore Youth Organiz. We learn things, we hear things, we see things as teens, and you know, we do different things with it. Sometimes we just realize, you know, we think this is what it is and sometimes we rebel. What pushed you to take action?
DeRay: Yeah, so for me it really was student government.
Student government was my thing. I was like all in. So from sixth grade to senior year in college, I was a student government kid that was like, Thanks. So that's how I got scooped into organizing is that a fellow student government kid in Baltimore was an organizer and was like, Hey, I think you could do this and da, da da da.
And then that just like changed everything for me. So that was like how I got into organizing. And then after college I was a president of my middle school, high school, college. And then after college I was like, you know, I, I know policy. I know. Granted, I was a. And I sort of knew programming, like I can, like if you need somebody to put on a thing, I got you.
Like, I did homecomings, I did pep rallies, I did spare weeks, I did, you know, new student orientation. Like I could do that. But I realized that I like, didn't know the day to day of how any of it ran. Like, I just, like, that's what I, I didn't know how to do that. So I, I came to New York and taught and teaching was like the first time that I, that I sat in like the day to day.
Of how a system runs. And that changed my life. I mean, like student government helped me, like I, I don't think I. Believed in my own voice and sort of understood that policies and thing or what it looks like. You know, people, people like, wow, DeRay, you're really good at meetings or da da. It's like, well, I grew up in them like ever since I was 11.
I've like been in meetings. I've never had a job, not in a meeting type place. I worked in the mail room in college. But like, that was the only thing I've ever done that was not some sort of meeting. So like, I grew up in meetings, so teaching was like the first time that it was like, okay, you gotta like show up every day and like grind it out in a very sort of methodical way.
Melanie: And it's not always pretty. When you put on an event, it's working toward a goal and it's kind of a grand goal. When you are on the methodical side of things, you see all of it, and there's not always a pretty event, a pretty package at the end of it. So what does that do to you as a person and how do you keep going in the middle?
DeRay: Yeah, I learned so much in teaching. I was a good teacher, so I wasn't like experimenting on my students. Half of my kids got a three in the state of New York, which is proficient. Half got a four, which is the highest student get in the state of New York. So like I did, well, I taught all of sixth grade math by Christmas my second year, the whole year's worth of curriculum.
And then we did ninth, 11th grade algebra from January, June. So my kids did well. Me and my sister both got became math teachers. Super random. She's a principal. But what I learned, I learned that failure's a part of the process. Cuz even on like the days where I was like hot, right? I'm like on fire, I got it.
I'm like, we all cylinders, all three classes, BA ba, bam. It was like there was always a kid who didn't get it. That was just like a part of the game. And when I started I would take it personally. Like I didn't. And it was like people learned differently and that's okay. And it was like, I had to like understand that like every single day and every class was not gonna be this thing where like everybody got it or I remember the first, I'll never forget, the worst lesson I ever taught was dividing decimals.
It was early, it was like the fifth day of school. And when I tell you it was a 90 minute class, I taught 60, 90 and a hundred cent minute classes that year, which is a lot of math for. When I tell you in this 90 minute class, no joke, 15 minutes in, I realize I have it. I like didn't prepare enough, they didn't get it.
I like so for 70 minutes we are like roughing it out. I'll never forget, I'm like, Hey everybody, open up the page 45. Do some quiet reading for seven. I mean, I just remember being mortified and like they didn't know. I mean they knew but it was so early that everybody was like behaved cuz we'd only known each other for five.
But I was like, wow, that was really bad. And like just knowing how to divide decimals is not the same thing as being able to teach it. And that was my, that was my lesson. I remember, I was like, oh, I gotta put in more work than I like being smart is actually not what makes a good teacher. And that was a lesson for me that like, forget my ego.
I just remember looking out at a class of black kids and being like, they deserved better than I brought today. And that day changed my career in.
Melanie: Let's pivot a bit to how that went to your organizing, because when Ferguson was a pivotal moment in the formation of Campaign Zero, with that came the concept into the broader social consciousness of defunding police, prison abolition, things like that.
So when you talk about these. Progressive policies and people are on varying ends of the spectrum. Sometimes people who you know otherwise are on your side, otherwise y'all are locked step. You are usually on it. How do you use what you learned in teaching in recognizing that all the kids ain't with us, for lack of a better term?
DeRay: I don't know if teaching, you know. Whew. The movement. I learned more about movements of working in the school system. I was a chief human capital for Baltimore City Building schools. Seven years ago and, and worked a lot inside of districts. Um, the movement's hard. The biggest lesson I take from teaching into the movement is that, um, the best work is the long haul.
Like I was a very good teacher and it took 180 days, right? I could have been the savant of sixth grade math, and they would not have learned everything they needed to learn in two days. That's just like not the way learning happens. And I think until I taught, I think I didn't understand that like the long haul is a feature, not a flaw.
Like I didn't understand that you actually need this time so people can process and apply and learn and da. Like I, I think I would've, I think the like type Amy would've been like, we can do this all right now. And like, granted, Like it, you know, we taught all, I taught all six free math by Christmas, but it was one of those things where like I just figured out how to like chop and screw it in a way that like they got, but it was like that still took three months, you know?
It was like a methodical approach. So when people complain about like, the system hasn't moved, I'm like, the best work takes a little longer than like, You think when you haven't done it. So that's one. I think the second thing is like, it taught me how to take big feelings. That's what we say in education.
It taught me how to take, how to not take big feelings personally. So like when Rosie, uh, who was this kid I had who was great? Ruby was another kid, Ruby one day walked into class and sucked her teeth in me. I'll never forget it. And I was like, and she did all, it was a hard teeth suck too. Like, ah, and I'm like, girl, Ruby, I didn't even do that.
And I remember that cuz she wasn't always like that, but Ruby gave it to me that day. And I just remember being like, you know what? Not about me. Like I, I like, if I took every single thing that students did personally, I would never wake up. Like it was just, it would be crazy. So in the movement, I just learned how to like, let people have big feelings and not receive all of it as a personal.
Whereas I think before I would've been like, why you, you know, if you, if you was, if you really respected me, you would be talking about class. You know, if you're, and I'm like, you brought stuff to this class that ain't got nothing to do with me. That ain't about class. And like we can, you know, some things we can't do, but like a lot of stuff I can, it can roll off my back.
Like, I need you to tighten up and keep moving. But I just can let it go in a way that I think I didn't understand until I had to do the, it was every. 60 or 70 or 80 kids every single day. We have a relationship and like, I just don't, so in the movement, you know, some people think I'm great, some people think I'm the devil, some people are in between.
And people have said all types of things to me, like not just about me or not just around me, but to me. And I think that if I hadn't taught, I think all of it would sting a little bit. And as a teacher, I'm like, if I let every single thing that happened in this classroom, Like, walk with me home. I'll never come
And that's the truth. And you said something that that's, that's sticking with me. You brought your own stuff. This doesn't have anything to do with me. And in the work, all of us have our own stuff. We are all people. We're all, and we're going to contain those, those angels, and we're gonna contain those demons because we.
Human beings. And we're also operating in this toxic environment that isn't friendly to us. So we won't always show up with our best selves, or we won't show up with our most alert selves, or we just won't mesh with people. And that is, that's the important thing of not only the work, but also navigating the changes that we wanna see.
I wanna talk a little bit about Campaign Zero and. What you've been doing with data, with researching, this is a huge undertaking. Can you talk a bit about how Campaign zero data and information, how everyday organizers can use that in terms of keeping track of what's going on with them locally and holding their police accountable?
DeRay: He is. So we've been in the street for 400 days. Once I saw the end of that. Not because we were tired, but because people got it right? Like we, the reason we stood the street was to make people focus on a problem they were refusing to engage, and we did it. I was trying to figure out like, how do we actually change the structure?
Because I left, by the time I left education, I was like, oh, I get a structures matter, right? I like worked inside of them. I saw how a random decision that you and I made at a meeting was actually changing or impacting people's lives all across, like I saw, I lived it today. I was like, uns. So that's why I started camping Zero.
And one of the things that struck me very early is, is how much information we didn't have. So people would ask us things like how many people were killed. It's like we didn't really know, which is why we started Mountain Police Violence. It was like, what about police units? Like there was no database of the contracts.
So that's how we started that. It was like, what about use of force policies? Like I don't, no, no. You know, there were all these things that people would talk about and we just said no. And one of the things I'm zooming all the way out is like in movement work. I think that people, when they talk about the work, they really talk about like California and New York.
So if you ask somebody about solitary confinement, they'll be like, California, New York are two of 50 states. Right? What is an analysis of solitary confinement? All the states's, no clue, right? Like what is three strikes? Laws Tell me all the three, like they don't exist. So we exist, we build campaigns.
Campaigns to us mean like discreet policy areas. We build a unique data set from zero to a hundred. We make all of it public and we make our solutions public. Well, so that is what make that is one thing that makes it special. The second thing that makes it special is that we run all of our campaigns concurrently.
So we don't, uh, they're not sequenced in the sense of like, one is not more than the important than the other. We bring them on at different times or we run them at the same time. And to your question about how can people access, and by the time we launch a campaign, all the data's public. So if you wanna go and see how to ban on our grades or how a law stacks up against our rubric, just go to end on on.org and say, if you want to see Mount police violence, Data's cut.
All the data's public. So we make a commitment on the front end when we start the campaign, even start exploring it, that all of the data that we collect on this campaign will be public when we launch the the project. And that's for two reasons. One is that we believe in ourselves. We believe we're very smart, very capable, and we have no.
Trouble showing our work. We think that's just a part of what the work should be. But the second is that even though we think we are smart and gifted, we know that we alone will not be able to scale this work. So we hope that people will take this data, they will take the framework that we provided. They will use it, they will apply it.
They will. Give us feedback, they will make it better. Like we want people to take this work and do something with it, but we know that you can't change the direct free schools on laws if y'all know what they are. And if you can't match 'em up against another cities or another states, we've done all that legwork for you so that you can do cool things with this.
Because we realize that like for a gazillion issues, the underlying just basic data, you don't.
Melanie: I absolutely appreciate that. And one of the things, when we have the conversation about policies, a lot of the conversation on the, on the macro level where we'll see them are national policy and state and local just gets skipped right over.
And that is, Really where the hotbed of nonsense is so inspiring that state and local work is incredibly important. And in that, one of your campaigns that I'd like to focus on is the eight Can't Wait campaign. These are eight policies that really you want adopted immediately. It's, you know, a lot of common sense things like banning choke holds, which should not be a thing that has to be.
But that, that's where we are. Of the 51 states in DC, only one has enacted all eight policies. What is the pushback that you get, the most you and your, your associates? What's the pushback that you get the most in outreach and lobbying for these policies and discussions about getting police forces to adopt these policies?
What do you get back more often than anything that sticks with.
DeRay: So from legislators and policy makers and stuff, we don't get pushback on the idea, you know, with from legislators, they just don't wanna confine the police, right? Like the police freak out every time. You might even suggest that there are standards, so the legislators get it.
And granted we did more change legally around this issue than any other change in the history of American policing. You know, 19 states restricted their use of force policies in accordance with a can. Wait right after 2020. There is no other group, there's no other plan. It's, we are the only people who've done that and we're proud of that.
And we know that that's not enough, right? Like we, we, we understand both of those things at the same time. So legislators, the question is how much they wanted to fight the police. Places like Maryland, we had a phenomenal police informed Bell, got a lot of stuff in it. Those legislators were not interested.
They were, we got the best no knock bill in the United States and could not do use of force. It just was a non-starter. In Maryland, we repealed the law enforcement officer Bill of Rights. Couldn't do use of force there like it would, you know, so every state is sort of interesting about how much, like what people think they can fight the police on from the police.
Obviously, you know, police officers will say to us, if you do this, people will die. Like they'll kill us and they'll just die. If you say we can't choke people. What happens in that situation where our life is dead and you're like, okay. So they don't really have good arguments, they just fear monger. You know, we got a lot of pushback inside the movement.
We still get pushback in the movement about, hey, can't wait. And I, and I will tell you, the more and more distance I have from 2020, the more and more surprised I am by it. So the first wave of pushback we got was that the only demand should be de. And that this takes away from defund. And you know, we didn't roll out defund.
Like that wasn't our, we were not the people that rolled it out, and we totally get the need to move the money away from policing. Right. Totally. Like, you know, I don't think that phrase was the best entrance for everybody, but the ideas, right. We believed the idea, da, da, da. Our challenge with defund as organizers from the beginning was not any of the stuff that I think, you know, mainstream people are upset about.
It was that it just didn't come with a toolkit. So defund became whatever you wanted it to be. There was no anchor, there was no, you know, and that like from an organizing perspective became really hard. You know, when we roll out campaigns, we try to define the solution really tight. So you know, you don't have to like eight, can't wait.
But it is one thing. It is eight policies that are very clear. It's not none. It's not your eight, it's not six, it is our eight. Right? And we have defined what they mean. We, it's public to da. Defund didn't have that. So people said to us like, you're detracting. The real demand and, and we were sort of like, you know, it scares us that we can't live in a world where we ask the system to do multiple things.
So that's how we, but the second thing that I think was more frustrating back then, I sort of am just past it now, is that people would say things like, this is our reformist. And you know, people already did these things and y'all are asking them to do it again. And this is just so the police can kill people easier.
And it's like, You know, any actual organizer, like somebody who really organizes, not all these people who've written books by abolition have never organized, don't, haven't done a structural thing in their life. They've like written books and read about it. Anybody that actually organizes probably does most of their work in harm reduction and harm reduction says the system doesn't work.
We need to save people's lives. While we recognize that harm reduction is like any of those programs, You know, in saltar confinement, that's harm reduction. Saltar confinement is not freedom. It's just not extra hell inside of jail. Feeding incarcerated people healthy wages, like you know, letter writing campaigns, all the stuff that people, when we ask people what is organizing that, you know, Almost everything they say is actually harm reduction.
The work of harm reduction is old. It's been long around for a long time. It's necessary. We gotta, you know, if we do all this structural change and nobody lives to see it, that's not a win. So harm reduction is like a key part of our work, but people made it sound like the only thing to do is tear. This is, and it's like, well that's never been the only thing, right?
The, we've always done transformational change or people call abolition and harm reduction at the same time. So it was weird to be stuck in this vacuum. Who are suddenly real organizers. People I knew were like that we can. And so like that was one philosophical thing that was frustrating. The second thing though, I'll tell you is that even today, like people asked me, like I was in this one tough meeting and this woman was like, real nasty buddy can't wait.
And I said to her, well, tell me one of the use of force policies you read and what your feedback was. She's never read one, and it's like, well, it'd be, it's really crazy to walk into a room and yell at somebody about a policy-based proposal. Well, you haven't read the policy. So the last thing I'll say, and this is a long answer, is that people will say, so it's actually a ban on neck restraints, not just choke holds, but people know choke hold.
So they say Choke hold. That's not what our website says, but whatever. So people will say, and this is a popular critique we get, is that New York City banned choke holds in 93 and yet choked Eric Arnold. And we say, have you read the policy? Because the new, so in policing there's a choke hold, which is your restriction of your Adams apple or like your airway.
A strangle hold is a restriction of the muscles around your neck, so like under your ear. They are two different, technically two different holds. It's called a carotid restraint, A strangle hold. It like comes up in a lot of names, but it is not a choke hold. New York City banned choke holds and has never banned or restricted strangle.
So when Garner gets killed, the police immediately say, didn't choke him. We used a karate restraint. So no neck restraints have never been banned. In New York City, one type of neck restraint was banned. But because you don't know the policy well, and because you didn't put any effort into understanding it, You think that we went up here and just told people to ban something they already banned, and why would we do that?
Right? I wish there were more critiques that were informed and not these like weird things or like, you know, Memphis, you saw Memphis. Memphis, Tyre gets killed, nightmare. The Memphis Police Department's website to this day says that there in compliance with. They have a huge, they have a whole website dedicated to all eight.
Our website says that they have two of eight. One of them we got by changing the state law. So I see these articles from people being like, Memphis is another example of eight. Can't wait. Not saving people's life. Breathe the policy yourself. At least go to our analysis of it. But you taking the police's word for it is the most bizarre thing
Melanie: I've ever seen.
I would imagine that has to be a, an incredibly frustrating part of it because police have access, police have media access, and it when the person that you are at odds with the person that you're disagreeing with, on opposite ends of it is the person, the only person debunking you. It has to weigh differently.
It has to resonate differently. And I think part of the, the issue is that people are fatigued because there is so much in so many places and. It's so confusion and makes the work much more difficult. And yet that doesn't stop you because there's a campaign, zero Fellowship that is going into its third year.
The deadline has already passed. But can you give a little snapshot of the objective of the fellowship? And what the cohort can kind of look forward to, and I'm, whether it's, you know, future members of the cohort, future hopefuls. Yeah.
DeRay: So the, you know, I love the fellowship and it stresses me out because we had 300 applicants and we have like six positions.
You know, it's like we, we never know how many people are gonna get, get excited about it. But the fellowship is, you know, we have a, we consider ourselves flat in the work, like we have a flat workplace in terms of work itself. So we have, obviously we have a lot of structure in terms of decision making, but in terms of work, everybody we hire.
We expect con to contribute meaningfully. We don't have any roles that are like stapling all day or something like that. So with the fellowship, we wanted to figure out how to create an entrance for people to do high quality, impactful policy work on a shortened timeframe. So like you might be a college student or, and how do we have you enter into this work?
How do we teach you how to do it? How do we learn from you too? That's what we wanted to create because we looked around and you know, and we will say, you know, we run 35 campaigns concurrently. We're in a lot of rooms about a lot of issues, super different topics, and, and I'll tell you, we are not alongside a lot of activists.
Around policy. We are lo i alongside a lot of activists around the mobilizing and the getting the word out and the awareness, da, da, da. And when it comes time to write the bill, to fight about these nuances around policy, to make compromises or not make compromises, or to. Like we just aren't around enough activists who are skilled in the content enough to be able to be there all the way through.
So not only at the mobilizing, not the way but like to be there all the way through and we wanted to create a pipeline to start
Melanie: that work. That's incredible. They're not always training wheels. A lot of people just kind of get jumped in for, you know, for lack of a better term. I mean, our. Just the people that I've, I've interviewed, it's been so many people who just, I saw this and I had to do something.
So this is absolutely incredible from this standpoint of volunteers because it takes a lot of people to make this work go forward. Where can volunteers go, and I know you mentioned policy. Are there other specific skills that you look for in volunteers?
DeRay: Yeah, so we're trying to, we're trying to figure out the volunteer pipeline, like a little better than we, um, than we have so far.
Like I don't think anybody's on the club, I don't think anybody's nailed it, so we're trying to figure that out. So right now there's, I mean, all the campaigns, if you care about one, you can go to the campaigns are a site and sign up to volunteer. Um, one of the things that we know is that people are really interested in one of two things.
Some people understand policy, they get it already, whatever. They just want to figure out how to help out those people. We're trying to figure out too, and then there are people who no fault of their own, they just need to be a little closer to the work. They need to like see it, touch it, da da, da, and then they're like, oh, this is crazy.
You're like, yes, this is. Um, so we're trying to figure it out, so I don't have a great answer. We are, we, you know, I'll come back on once we launch it. I won't tease it yet, but we are working on something that we are proud of and it's infancy. We're working on that. So we're working on something that I think will be dope,
Melanie: fun, Noal, when you completely figure out the volunteer thing, let me know that too, because.
DeRay: got you. We gonna need you as
Melanie: a partner. You know, I'm here now. So in terms of help, how else can people support? Because as we all know, the work ain't free. Yeah.
DeRay: Go to campaign zero.org and donate. You know, we run on donations. It's, it's what allows us to. Be intellectually curious and to be really rigorous in how we press legislatures and policy makers to change.
You know, I think about some of the campaigns that we've done with that have not been popular, certainly among the police and da da, and like we just don't have to worry about like, you can't call our funders cuz as a matter right. Uh, and those things are really, that's really powerful. So $5, $20, all of it matters.
All of it adds up.
Melanie: It all helps. The things that you don't think help, absolutely help. It's astonishing how much we can do with. With just a little, just a little push. Thank you, first of all, for all of this. Thank you so much for the work you do. Thank you for sitting with me today. And before we go, do you wanna leave our folks with the final work?
DeRay: Yeah. You know, we believe that we can win in this lifetime. That is our core belief that we are not just interested in moving the needle. It's not about, you know, tearing off one branch of the tree. We believe that we can win this lifetime, and we know that that means that the pace we do, the work, the intensity, we do it the the way we need rest.
All of that changes. If, if our vision says we do it in this lifetime, and we know that that's not everybody's way of doing the work, that's not what everybody believes. So we wanna be in community with as many people who believe that we can win in this lifetime. That like that is not only what we deserve, but it's what is possible.
And if you believe that, we'll always find a space for you to do, to do meaningful work If you don't believe. There are a lot of other places who believe that we can change one thing and you should go do something with those people. Um, but if you believe that we can undo it all in this lifetime and wanna be a part of that, there's always a home for you to work with us.
Now, if you only believe in one thing, we love you too. Want you to be free, da da da da da. Uh, but if you wanna do work, oh, I, this train is going to, you know, we, we have a roadmap of 110 campaign. This training is going to 110. It's not a train going to one or going to three, it's going 110.
Melanie: I appreciate you so much.
Cannot wait to have you back. Sorry it took this long, but I'm glad you're here and I appreciate you. It has been fantastic and I will talk to you next time. Thanks. See you later, darling. You later? Yes. Campaign Zero is an absolutely incredible informational resource. I highly recommend going in and looking at a can't wait.
Looking at those policies, looking at the states that both have implemented them, what policies they didn't implement, and look at the states that didn't implement anything at all and use Resist. Text state to 5 0 4 0 9 and reach out to those states that are not taking steps to protect people, and more often than not, protect black people from police violence.
I want to thank DeRay McKesson for joining us, and I want to thank the entire crew at Campaign Zero for keeping the rest of us. You can visit them firstname.lastname@example.org to learn more and to find yourself in a little bit of an informational rabbit hole. I also wanna give a special shout out to Kiana for making this interview happen.
I appreciate you so much. Thank you. A million times over. In the coming weeks, we're gonna be talking more about policing the push for civilian oversight, and we're gonna turn our attention to Atlanta and dive into the problems of the ever problematic cop city. There are a few petitions on the bot that address police brutality, qualified immunity, et cetera, but we really do need fresh words because unfortunately, This is a topic that is ever evolving.
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Your petition does not have to be overly involved. You really just need three main points. You need the statement of the issue, your goal, and a clear call to action that you would like your legislator to take. That is it. That is all you need to do to spark this campaign and make sure that the issues that matter to you in the way that they matter to you, get out to your representatives.
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You should be if you're not. Change that because this week we are going to be announcing our first free workshop and I would hate for you to miss it. I'm excited. You should be excited to be on the lookout on Instagram. I wanna thank you again for joining. Thanks again to DeRay and the folks at Campaign Zero for all the hard work that they do, and I will see you next time on The Resist Bot Podcast.
Until then, take Care.
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Learn how to organize your own pressure campaigns or launch your own voter pledge drives. www.resist.bot. Thanks so much for joining, and we'll see you next week.