Strengths On Fire

This week, Sarah Collins and Bill Dippel take us on a transcontinental strengths journey — all the way to South Africa — to chat with the dynamic and insightful Simon Hurry.

From the moment Simon joins the conversation, it’s clear this isn’t your typical strengths talk. He brings the fire of a scientist, the heart of a teacher, and the conviction of a true influencer. Together, the trio digs into one of the most common questions coaches and clients ask:
👉 Is CliftonStrengths really different, or is it just another personality test with better branding?

Simon makes his case — and it’s compelling. He explains how CliftonStrengths goes beyond typology and into the psychological DNA of what makes each person unique. He draws on his background in biology, teaching, and coaching to show how our themes not only shape our behavior but reveal how we think, process, and create confidence.

Expect plenty of “aha” moments as the hosts unpack:

The difference between personality typing and strengths DNA
Why confidence, not just awareness, drives real performance
How to move from amateur to mastery in using your strengths
The hidden science behind how our talents shape our psychology and relationships

It’s part philosophy, part science, and 100% inspiring. Simon’s blend of humor, clarity, and depth will make you see CliftonStrengths — and maybe yourself — in a brand-new light.

💬 Join the Conversation:
If you loved this episode, share it with your fellow coaches, teammates, or anyone curious about how Strengths really works.
👉 Follow, like, and subscribe so you never miss a conversation that helps you live and lead through your strengths.
And check out Simon’s work at talent2titan.com
for more on the intersection of Strengths, psychology, and performance.

Bill's Top 10 CliftonStrengths

1) Individualization

2) Developer

3) Activator

4) Woo

5) Restorative

6) Empathy

7) Harmony

8) Connectedness

9) Relator

10) Learner

Sarah's Top 10 CliftonStrengths

1) Positivity

2) Woo

3) Communication

4) Harmony

5) Activator

6) Developer

7) Input

8) Individualization

9) Responsibility

10) Arranger

Official Strengths On Fire Website: https://strengthsonfire.transistor.fm

Creators and Guests

Host

Bill Dippel

Bill Dippel is a certified, professional Strengths coach with a 35-year career in nonprofits and higher education. His passion is working with organizations, teams, and individuals to ensure they are performing and communicating at the highest levels. As president of Bill Dippel Strengths Coaching, he travels frequently for large events and public speaking, as well as working with whole companies through their management teams.

Host

Sarah Collins

Sarah Collins is a certified CliftonStrengths coach and founder of Collins Collective, with over 12 years of experience in strengths-based coaching and leadership development. Her passion lies in empowering businesses, teams, and individuals to communicate and perform at their best by focusing on what they do well. As the leader of Collins Collective, Sarah combines engaging workshops, high-impact keynotes, and in-depth coaching to foster growth and connection. Based in Nebraska, she partners with businesses to drive meaningful change and create high-performing teams.

Guest

Simon Hurry

Simon is a researcher, influential thinker, and astute strategist who excels at developing innovative methods to enhance productivity and fulfilment. His true strength lies in his intuitive ability to identify and clarify the key factors that hold individuals and systems back from reaching their full potential. Simon's individualized approach enables his clients to take precise actions that lead to the change they desire. He emphasizes self-awareness, recognizing that everyone navigates the world in their unique way. His tool of choice is Gallup’s CliftonStrengths® assessment, which he uses to help people understand how their natural behavior patterns impact their decision-making. As a global expert on CliftonStrengths®, Simon has directly impacted the lives of over 28,000 people over the past 15 years. His work continues to inspire and empower individuals to achieve their greatest potential.

What is Strengths On Fire?

Strengths on Fire is where dynamic strengths coaching meets real, relatable conversations. Hosted by Bill, a Gen X with a wealth of experience, and Sarah Collins, an elder millennial with fresh perspectives, we bring together our shared CliftonStrengths—WOO, Activator, Developer, and Harmony—to ignite engaging and entertaining discussions. Whether we’re laughing, learning, or diving deep into our guests’ top 10 strengths, we’re here to show you how to turn strengths into your secret weapon at work and in life. Expect professional development with a twist—because growth should be fun!

Sarah Collins (00:01.299)
Mr. Bill Dippel it's a lovely day in the neighborhood. How you doing?

Bill Dippel (00:04.673)
It is beautiful in my neighborhood. think it's, I'm very excited to hear how it is in the neighborhood of our guests today. So I'm, we have a little, a little treat for our Arsittist today as far as some, some distance that we're dealing with.

Sarah Collins (00:13.497)
I know. I know.

Sarah Collins (00:22.264)
I know I love these episodes. I'm so excited for our guests. And if you like our guests, you should like share subscribe. just go in a little call back to some advice that we got. We don't do enough call to action. So everybody pay attention to this podcast, but like us, link us, tell your friends.

Bill Dippel (00:29.153)
Ha ha!

Bill Dippel (00:39.953)
Yeah. Yes. Like us, link us, give us some comments, send us. Yes. Get people listening. We don't do a call. We got an email from someone said, you don't do enough call to actions and they know what they're talking about. So we're, we're fulfilling it.

Sarah Collins (00:53.316)
That's right. And today we're talking about is CliftonStrengths just a fancier personality test or is it really different? And I can't wait to dive into that. But before we get into the meat of the episode, what I need to know from you, Mr. Bill Dippel is what is the best piece of advice you've ever gotten and do you follow it?

Bill Dippel (01:06.315)
Yes.

Bill Dippel (01:11.329)
best piece of advice I've ever gotten. Yes. Again, for our listeners, this is the second time we've started this episode. I answered this question previously and got pounded by Sarah so that she felt I dodged it.

Sarah Collins (01:27.142)
Not pounded. I just said, well, you didn't really answer the question, but that was a great answer.

Bill Dippel (01:32.289)
I'm going to answer it and I'm going to make it slightly different, right? The best piece of advice I ever got was to help everyone all the time because you never know what they need or how you can be there for them and how it shows up for other people. And the way that I do, I try very hard, especially other coaches, when they come to me and they're like, hey, how

Sarah Collins (01:38.533)
Okay.

Sarah Collins (01:52.166)
That's great. And do you do it?

Sarah Collins (01:58.659)
Mm-hmm.

Bill Dippel (02:00.971)
How do you start this? What's the business side? I mean, we've been certified, I feel good as a coach, but how does the social media side work? how do you have systems in place? And do you have assistant people? And how do you get them to do it? And the answers to all those questions are yes, we do all of that. And I love showing other coaches that. That's partially how you and I met. We're at Charlotte's event where we tend to get together and help other coaches do that. So I tend to try to...

I would say even to the detriment of myself sometimes where I'm working with a coach right now that's that is Reno based in my town and could be considered a little bit of a competition and I just don't it doesn't matter to me I want to get them off the ground and yeah, you're well you're stuck in an area where there's coaches dripping from trees, right so Yeah

Sarah Collins (02:42.219)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that abundance mindset. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Collins (02:52.496)
That's right. I'm in Nebraska. So we've got Gallup right at the up the road in Omaha. So yeah, everybody here, I got coaches a stone throw away all the time, but I try to do the same thing. Like I try to pay it forward abundance mindset because I have to believe in the movement of helping people know their talents and focus on what's right with themselves. And so I think the more people who believe the philosophy that we so often preach when we work with CliftonStrengths, the better for everybody.

Bill Dippel (03:05.921)
Yeah.

Bill Dippel (03:13.675)
Mm-hmm.

Bill Dippel (03:21.813)
Yeah. Yeah. Is that the answer to the question for you too? Then is it is what would the answer be on your side? I'm curious.

Sarah Collins (03:22.745)
Mm-hmm.

No!

I can't remember who told me this or where I saw it, but I think of it often and it's you can have everything, you just can't have it all at the same time. And so as the listeners know, I'm a mother, I have little children, I'm a wife, you know, I'm running this business. I have, of course, like many people, big dreams and ambitions, but I also want to be present as a mother. And sometimes I get this feeling in the pressure

of like, have to do this and this and this and, I'm just constantly trying to embrace the advice of like, there's a time and place for that. And there are seasons in life to run in certain areas. And so like, I want to be really present with my children. I want to be a super good mommy. And so I know that to do that, I have to be here with them more now, which means I can't do as much as maybe I want to in my career.

But these little kids ain't gonna stay little forever. So like, I just keep reminding myself, girl, you can run when your kids are older and they're busy. When they move out of the house, you know, I was just thinking about, I like to do visioning for 10 years from now. So I just turned 39, in 10 years I'll be 49. I was thinking, oh my gosh, my son will be 17 in 10 years. In 10 years, the girls will be 16, Henry will be 17.

Bill Dippel (04:28.097)
That's true.

Sarah Collins (04:51.952)
they're probably not gonna want that much to do with me. I'm gonna be able to really have a lot of spare time on my hands to do a lot more. right, right. So you can have it all, you just can't have it all at the same time and just letting that be okay.

Bill Dippel (04:58.409)
I guarantee you that is true. They will, yeah, they're right. Yeah.

Bill Dippel (05:05.813)
Hmm. Yeah, I, I'm going to, I want to do a little callback. We just had an episode with Maggie, not that long ago. listeners would probably just came off of that one or one or two back. And she made a statement in her episode that I thought was really fascinating and something that's kind of rolling around in my head. And that is your feelings are real and they're valid, but they aren't necessarily true. They aren't right necessarily.

Sarah Collins (05:13.979)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Collins (05:32.134)
Mmm. Right. They're not necessarily factual.

Bill Dippel (05:36.905)
Yes. And that's a, that's a pretty good point because how many of us lock our feelings down? have firm belief in that. I totally and completely agree that I feel that way and that other people should feel that way. And that one's been rolling around with me for a little bit. So when we hear good advice, how often it sticks with us. And I thought Maggie really hit that one really well for us. And speaking of great guests and speaking of people that bring really good thoughts and ideas.

Sarah Collins (05:51.59)
Mmmmm

Bill Dippel (06:05.215)
We need to introduce our guest today. Super excited to do this. We've done this across the pond once before, but not to where we're going today. Fair? yeah, so let's bring him on. Today we are incredibly fortunate. And as we alluded, we had to do this a couple of times to get it right. There was a lot of technology to make this happen. But today, Simon Hurry has come on.

Sarah Collins (06:15.908)
Yes, absolutely.

Bill Dippel (06:33.865)
all the way from South Africa to talk about today's topic. Is CliftonStrengths just a fancier personality test or is it really different? Simon, we cannot thank you enough for jumping through a ton of hoops and making the technology work. So thanks for coming.

Simon (06:51.822)
It's wonderful to be here and thank you Sarah and Bill for inviting me. Yeah, I had to try and reconnect the perception that South Africa is in the dark ages. It's just that I live in one of the wildest places in South Africa. So we're very civilized and we're very first world and we do, you know, we understand what's happening and we export South Africans around the world to help the world understand how to do things. You might've heard of a guy called Elon Musk. But yeah, he's an interesting.

Bill Dippel (07:17.729)
heard of that. Yeah, that's who came to my mind. Yeah, I was like,

Sarah Collins (07:19.094)
Maybe he crosses my algorithm.

Simon (07:21.896)
export and we have a couple right around the world. So we're quite civilized but when you connected with me I was sitting in one of the wildest areas of South Africa next to the Kruger National Park. I love that area. I find it very therapeutic and it's a space where I could do a lot of my best thinking. But getting hold of internet and proper connection is a bit of a challenge and intentionally so. So you can watch that.

Bill Dippel (07:23.113)
Yes. Yes.

Bill Dippel (07:49.11)
Well...

Sarah Collins (07:49.284)
Yes, I was going to say it's probably great to think in a place where the internet is not real reliable. We could all use a little bit more of those areas, I think.

Simon (07:55.168)
It is.

I agree with that completely, but it's not so good when you didn't follow a piece of advice, which is check expectations before you commit. So I did not check your technical expectations, and I made a terrible assumption that a eight megabyte line would be enough. So it was not.

Bill Dippel (08:17.697)
Well, whatever, whatever happened, I mean, Simon, you've stepped up big time. You've pivoted. We've changed some days and you are coming in. You've jumped through a ton of over a bunch of hurdles to make this happen. So thank you very, very much for that. And I love the idea. You were coming from a wild wildland national park while you were there the previous time we were. We kind of saw a little of it in the background while we were breaking up and thought.

Simon (08:32.811)
Absolute pleasure.

Simon (08:43.214)
Mmm.

Bill Dippel (08:45.311)
How fascinating. Why would you even want to be on a podcast today? I'd be out there hanging out with the wildlife and seeing what's going on. So, and you live there, right? That's, that's part of your home.

Sarah Collins (08:48.707)
Yeah.

Simon (08:54.188)
Yeah, yeah, so I moved between Cape Town, which is the southern part of South Africa and the top right hand corner. So it's a balance between a kind of a commercial competitive interest, which Cape Town brings, and then a retreat where I can do a lot of reflection and a lot of time. And a lot of kind of tying in with the strength stuff is when you understand who you are and what you need, you've got to honor it.

Sarah Collins (09:22.84)
Mmm.

Simon (09:23.678)
And that's the most important thing. If you don't honor yourself, no one else is going to. So it's kind of hard to assert that sometimes because others don't necessarily understand that you need it. But I would say that the time in that space has been absolutely critical in terms of a lot of the work that I've been doing over the last 18 months, two years. And I wouldn't survive without it, to be quite honest. So I've actually built my life intentionally around that to make sure that I'm as productive as possible.

Bill Dippel (09:45.599)
Excellent.

Bill Dippel (09:53.109)
Well, let's give everyone out there a moment to take that in. Simon, hit us for a couple of minutes about what it is you do, what your profession is, how you step into that CliftonStrengths. And then at the end of that, tell us your top 10, if you would, so that our listeners can be listening for those cues as you're going through your life story.

Simon (09:53.674)
And it's amazing.

Simon (10:15.362)
I think that I'd love to know what I do, simply because I find answering that question incredibly difficult. Simply because it's how do we answer that from which perspective? So if I look at it from my perspective as opposed to a function,

Sarah Collins (10:18.822)
Same.

Bill Dippel (10:18.987)
Hahaha!

Simon (10:40.372)
I would say that what I do is I create. And what I create is linkages between information or pieces of information that create completely new perspectives and meaning. So what I love doing is seeing patterns. And what I love doing is seeing what those patterns mean and then applying that meaning to create value. So

Everything that I do is around the operationalization of what I see. So there's two elements to what I do. It's what am I seeing? So there's a research element to what I do. And then there's an application element to what I do. So at the heart, I say to people, I'm an entrepreneur, because I'm independent and I run my own business. And I've got 101 ideas in that space. And I've already alluded to one of the themes that is in my top 10. But I create.

Sarah Collins (11:34.381)
Mm-hmm.

Simon (11:38.498)
new ways of thinking about the in a nutshell. And that plays out in a number of spaces from consulting to product creation to information to coaching to new methods to entrepreneurial endeavors. So anything on that front is really what I do. Yeah.

Bill Dippel (11:57.569)
Yeah.

Sarah Collins (11:58.95)
That's so robust.

Simon (12:01.58)
Why'd you say robust? what do we... There's a many terms of like this redundancy. It means that if one doesn't work, I've got a backup.

Sarah Collins (12:11.558)
I just mean it. It's so full. Like there's so much there, right? I love the way you describe it as this entrepreneurship research application, consulting, coaching. It feels just so, so big.

Simon (12:19.853)
Yeah.

Simon (12:29.55)
I cannot sit still. So the reality is if I'm not moving and I'm not creating, I am literally bored. And sometimes I do get myself into a situation going, my God, Simon, what have you just done? What have you just committed to? What have you just created? And then I have this over-sense of obligation that I need to follow through on this process. And then I go, I think this is a bit big.

Sarah Collins (12:32.038)
Mmm.

Sarah Collins (12:36.122)
Yes.

Simon (12:53.304)
Bigger's never ever intimidated me. Bigger's not an issue. It really isn't an issue. For me, if you say to me, is a limit, my personality type is I'll go, why are you setting limits? Essentially, so challenge those assumptions, challenge those limits. I'm not an infinite believer. I don't believe that anyone can do anything, but I believe that...

Sarah Collins (12:56.198)
Mm.

Sarah Collins (13:07.085)
Mmm.

Simon (13:17.778)
You can challenge assumptions and those assumptions can put you into new spaces that you never thought that you were possible for yourself. So I frequently find myself in situations going like, how did I get here? And it was born out of just an urge to just try and move. And then you realize, my gosh, this is actually quite big.

Sarah Collins (13:28.165)
Yeah.

Sarah Collins (13:38.16)
I feel like your strengths explain this a lot. Should we drop your top 10 here?

Bill Dippel (13:41.567)
Yes. Yeah, hit your top 10, Simon.

Simon (13:41.826)
completely.

Okay, so I have taken it twice. Any good investigator would take it twice. The irony is I tell people they shouldn't. And I say to people, the reason you shouldn't take it twice is because I know you shouldn't because I did the investigation.

Sarah Collins (13:55.334)
Same! Same!

Bill Dippel (13:58.901)
Right there with you. Yeah.

Simon (14:05.774)
But having said that I did it twice because when I did it first time, it was strength finder 1.0, it was CliftonStrengths 1.0, it their strength finder 1.0, and I wanted the 2.0 to see from a validation perspective a change. So it hasn't really changed, the order has shifted, but I'm still very much Simon. So the second set, strategic number one, I would say that that's never gonna change because if there's a shortcut, I will find it.

can guarantee you. Self-assurance, competition, command, significance, individualisation, learner, ideation, maximiser and woo.

Bill Dippel (14:45.343)
Welcome to Orange.

Sarah Collins (14:46.884)
I mean, we are living and influencing land.

Simon (14:47.244)
Well, I have all the orange in my top 15, by the way. Every single influencing theme sits in my top 15. Yeah.

Sarah Collins (14:52.9)
Yes, you have Activator at 11 and Communication at 13, which shoves every single orange into your superpower harness, yes.

Simon (14:56.408)
Yep.

Simon (15:01.838)
100%. Yeah, so if you need to understand how to influence, just let me know.

Sarah Collins (15:06.362)
Well, I love that about you. And I feel like what you what I can hear when you describe even your work and how you feel about doing things and trying things and not putting limits on yourself. I have to imagine your clients are also emboldened by your spirit. Do you think that's true?

Simon (15:09.037)
Yeah.

Simon (15:26.988)
I would say that the driving thing, as I said, is that if two things, my insights and my energy does not inspire you to test your own personal boundaries, then I haven't succeeded.

Sarah Collins (15:40.868)
Yeah. And I have to imagine you do that a lot.

Simon (15:41.558)
So everything that drives me is about enlarging the human spirit. Absolutely everything is make get as big and as capable as you possibly can. Full your space. And so a lot of the thinking, the strategic, the ideation, the learner is what are the methodologies that can crack your code that allows you to full your space, basically? That's what I love doing. No, no.

Bill Dippel (15:41.782)
Yeah.

Sarah Collins (15:53.189)
Yes.

Sarah Collins (16:03.906)
my gosh, I feel like I want you to be my coach right now. Here I am like, just, you know, don't do everything. And Simon's over here like, that's BS, break it open. Be bigger.

Bill Dippel (16:06.838)
Yeah.

Simon (16:13.838)
And that's why I love Clifton Strings because I've got your code, and that goes into our topic and what we're talking about is that I'm not going to tell you from my perspective what it means for you to be big. I'm going to look at who you are and over 15 years with working with it, worked out basically what big looks like for you because that's the most important aspect. And I think my individualization drives that is going...

You know, when I was younger, I'd try and extrapolate and say to you that you need to be big like I'm big. So you need to have impact, you need to be competitive, you need to do this thing. And I've realized that that was terribly subjective. And big for you could be how you support, how you encourage, how you love, how you partner.

the depth to which you give it, that is your big. But either way, do you fill your space? Do you realize maximizing that potential? And then I add an extra twist to that with a higher competition is...

Sarah Collins (17:08.336)
Mmm.

Simon (17:19.01)
how to turn that into your competitive advantage. So how do you turn your big into your unique individualization competition, your unique advantage? And that drives absolutely everything for me. So I work with sport teams, I work with executive teams, I'm building products that help people sort of enlarge their space and realize that potential. So I'm not bored, as you can see with that amount of influence. Influencing themes cannot sit still.

Sarah Collins (17:23.002)
Yeah.

Simon (17:48.944)
They cannot stand still. The whole aspect of an influencing theme is to drive progress. Every single one. Let's progress. Let's move.

Sarah Collins (17:57.316)
Yeah.

Bill Dippel (17:58.333)
So I'm really curious about this, Simon, because it's rare, as you know, particularly through the CliftonStrengths data, how often we get high, high, influencing. It's the second domain for me. I lead with relationship and then go to influencing. But not only from a statistical point of view, but how infrequently we get to coach people that have this much influencing in the top of their

in the top of their themes. Right. Right. Because they don't care. Yeah.

Simon (18:27.714)
Well you know why, Paul. Do know why you don't get to coach them? Because they don't want to be coached. They're going... I'm actually not joking. It's like... They're going, why do I need coaching?

Sarah Collins (18:31.92)
Yeah, they don't us.

Bill Dippel (18:35.061)
They're like, I have this, I'm done. Right? Yeah. Right. I totally agree with you. Yeah, I understand that. And well, but I want to hit on two of them, self-assurance and significance, two of the ones that crop up periodically, I get to deal with them usually singly or maybe together, but that's really rare. So do you feel when you took this the second time or, you know, as you've, as you've

Sarah Collins (18:36.976)
They're like, I should be your coach.

Simon (18:50.211)
Yeah.

Simon (19:02.734)
Mmm.

Bill Dippel (19:03.647)
taken it a couple of times. Do you really feel that self-assurance and that significance is that did that really bond with you in that way? And the few times I've worked with self-assurance and significance, I'd say it's kind of right down the middle of the road. Some of the people that have it seem to have it very maturely. They really understand it and they're willing to take input and have other data come at them. Some of them have been, my way, the highway, that's it. I am completely confident in what I'm doing.

Simon (19:11.1)
Completely.

Bill Dippel (19:33.409)
And I don't really care what this is. That could lend to, don't need a coach. Right? That might answer that question of, don't, you know, I'm good. I don't need any of it. How do those play for you? I'm just fascinated that you have them both. And I've seen them down the middle so often that I'm curious how you deal with them.

Simon (19:36.846)
Mmm.

Simon (19:47.47)
Mmm.

Simon (19:53.678)
So I really do believe that the themes around it provide an important context. But self-assurance, interestingly enough, I mean, it's dominant in both the times I've taken it. And I'm not sure it's fully understood because it's so rare. But what I've found with self-assurance is that it's a drive to be able to trust yourself implicitly.

Sarah Collins (20:19.718)
Mmm.

Simon (20:20.672)
And how you do that is you put yourself in difficult situations all the time to see what you can handle, what you're going at.

So how that extrapolates in terms of potential with arrogance or anything else and why I don't need coaching is I drive myself to test myself because why if I can't trust myself, what can I trust? So the self assurance is self trust. And that's why it's called self assurance. It's I know what I can do and I know what I can't do. And it's quite binary. It's quite clear in that particular area. So what the impact that has on me is I am perpetually testing myself and

I don't have Achiever in my top 10 and what that means is that if I fail, I don't see it as failure. I see it as a recalibration of what I can or can't do. So maybe I was dialed down a bit or I underwhelmed, which means I can actually do more. But that's self-assurance. Now what that does is how it plays out is when you ask me, can you, I will give you a self-assured answer based on data.

that I've calibrated because I can do that. Like I know, you're going, geez, you're very confident. I'm going, well, aren't you? Like, why would you not test what you can or can't do? Like, surely you understand your boundary. So I say to self-assurance, self-assurance goes, here's the boundary. OK, let's go past it and see how it works.

Sarah Collins (21:36.101)
Yeah.

Bill Dippel (21:36.363)
Yeah.

Sarah Collins (21:42.98)
Okay, so we can clearly hear you have such a deep understanding of these strengths and I love how you're describing that self assurance. I think I know where you're gonna head here when we get into our question, is CliftonStrengths just a fancier personality test or is it really different? Clearly you can, we know you're using it, you're living it yourself, I can hear how you use it with your clients, but what's your initial take about this? Why do you use CliftonStrengths?

what makes it different for you or is it just one of the ones that you use and you don't see a big difference?

Simon (22:21.826)
best way I can answer that is is okay it's a psychometric it is a personality assessment but does not create a personality typology so your your MBTI your disk your Enneagram or typology based what they're trying to do is they're trying to describe how you behave within certain boxes of classification and we use typologies because it's a quick handle it's an easy handle

And so we go, you're blue, you're green. Okay, cool. These are your general behaviors. Okay, that makes sense. Where CliftonStrength, StrengthFinder is a game changer, is it looks at the DNA behind that personality. It looks at the unique construct of what you're doing. And if you are maybe an ENTP or you are a six with a wing four,

You can't tell the differentiation between those two. You go, oh, we're the same. No, you're not the same. We are not the same. And so the power of Clifton's strengths for me is the ability to actually understand your unique DNA. The challenge is how to read that, though. And I find that there needs to be more work on how we understand what that full 34 really means. Donald Clifton, I don't know if he really understood what he created.

Bill Dippel (23:38.849)
you

Simon (23:42.126)
But it really is a true map to somebody's psychology. If you know how to look at that 34, and I've dedicated the last 10 years to understanding that, I can tell who you are at an intimate level. And I can create incredible predictive analytics of that particular space. There is nothing simple about CliftonStrengths in going, oh, we arbitrarily put some stuff together to see what type you are. No, no, no, no. This is a very,

rigorous scientific paper that has stood the test of time for 20 years. And literally, if you understand how to read those codes, you've got an insight into the entire nature of a human. And that for me means that's not normal. That is, that's a game changer.

Sarah Collins (24:27.59)
I would like to clip this monologue from Simon and use it in all my sales pitches from here out going forward. That was beautifully said. I love the way that you are, the way that I can hear this self assurance command significance in the way you even describe it. We talk to the strengths coaches on this podcast every week. We talk to strengths coaches in our everyday life all the time.

Simon (24:33.325)
Yeah.

Simon (24:37.763)
Yeah.

Sarah Collins (24:55.352)
I have never heard someone so confidently describe the DNA behind personality, which they're literally giving us the DNA mark on here. But the way that you say it with that confidence and that assurity, it makes me think like, yeah, that is it. And it is complicated, right? I always tell people the same thing that you said, like it does not put someone in a box.

Simon (25:06.018)
Yeah.

Sarah Collins (25:21.968)
That's gonna make it more complicated to understand. That's gonna mean we have more learning and education that has to go into understanding you because we are not gonna stereotype you down into nine types.

Simon (25:22.114)
Mm-mm.

Mm-hmm.

Simon (25:35.918)
I don't think boxes are a bad thing because we move very, very quickly. And we do use stereotypes to allow us to move very quickly and to transact. But when we lose the detail, we lose our individuality, which is our main. And obviously with individualization, it's something that I can see. It's something that I can sense and I can understand the relevance. So with individualization maximizes significance. I can understand how your individuality can be significant. So for me to dumb it down,

to, and it really is an approximation, it's an average. So your typology is on average. I lose the detail of your uniqueness. And that's the irony of the space. I need the typology in my view for a quick handle, but then I lose you. So I gain, you lose, because we don't understand it. And so a lot of my work is basically is how could you create a sliding scale between your DNA and your typology? And that's been the work of the last five years for me.

Sarah Collins (26:24.068)
Yeah.

Simon (26:36.032)
And what that's done is it helped me understand the DNA and how it works. And those themes and the way they interrelate is like chemistry to me. And my background's in science. I've got a BSc. A lot of people don't realize I've got an honors degree actually in biology. And I took the science route. And those theme combinations are like chemistry.

Sarah Collins (27:03.303)
Mmm.

Simon (27:03.936)
So I understand the DNA, but when you combine it, and that's what I saying with me, it's not that I've got self-assurance, it's that I've got self-assurance strategy, ideation, analytical learner, I've got these sort of things, which means that the way I speak and the way I work is a seamless transition between what I've learned, what I understand, and the confidence with which I speak.

And so it's seamless. In my mind, it's seamless and it exhibits as a personality. But the advantage of knowing the DNA means those themes are impulses. Those are instincts. Those are things that I see. Those are things that inform my complete reality. So there's a huge amount of coaching detail you can generate if you understand what those words mean. So that's why I leapt at it when you said, choose a topic. And I looked at that one and I said, well, that's easy. That's passion for me because...

We've got something potent here and the world needs to know. And Gallup don't even like me because I'm not certified. So the reality is I feel like I've got extra evidence to actually sell CliftonStrengths because there's nothing in it for me. Which is wonderful and I've got that route as an independent.

Bill Dippel (28:00.725)
Yeah, we can make that.

Sarah Collins (28:05.286)
I'm

Sarah Collins (28:20.742)
Yeah.

Bill Dippel (28:20.917)
Yeah, wonderfully well, well put as far as you can't you can't think I have a buy in here more than I'm just being honest with you because I'm I'm not I mean, I've got no no stake in the game other than I want to make you better. And so let's make that. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon (28:30.338)
Mm.

Simon (28:35.534)
100 % and I can't think of a better tool. You know, lot of the work that I've done in South Africa and where I've worked in other countries, it's basically saying, I want to make you better, what's the best tool? And being competitive and being who I am and analytical, why would I use a tool that does not work?

Bill Dippel (28:58.293)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Collins (28:58.874)
Mm-hmm.

Simon (28:59.598)
So the logic is, and I've already said this, I use CliftonStrengths until you can tell me there's something better, I will use CliftonStrengths because as far as I'm concerned, there is nothing better. However, it does need to be applied in a certain way to pull out its full value, full value. And I'm not convinced coaches even understand what they're sitting with in the entire process. And...

That's okay because maybe you want to operate at a higher level. You want to operate at an encouraging level. You just want to use this to encourage and inspire people. That's wonderful. That's you filling your space. But for me, being an analyst, I go, I actually want people to...

I want to solve complex psychological problems. I want to solve challenging team dynamics. I want to solve the complexity of our humanity because that's where the problems are. That's where the meat happens. So I am interested in that. And if others are, then I'll show them how that code can help.

Sarah Collins (29:58.224)
Yeah, I think when I hear you talk as someone who works with teams, I have some teams that I am trying to go deeper with and they are almost resistant. I mean, they would say that they're willing, but they don't, right? They keep it very surface level and it can be challenging to work with that.

Bill Dippel (29:58.369)
Wow.

Sarah Collins (30:18.01)
But then I have some other teams and have one team in particular I've been working with for three years and they have taken it deep and they talk about it every day. And when new people join their team, they say to me, my gosh, this is so intimidating because these people speak this language that I don't quite understand yet, right? Because they're implementing it. And when I see what that team can do and how they can do it and how they're so much further ahead than the people around them because they didn't just do the surface, they did the deep.

they've done the work they're putting in, right? And it's this continual push that we're doing. I just, it is almost, I don't know if sad or upsetting or, you disappointing is the word when I have a team that I'm like, you could do so much more. Please come with me. Like, let's dive into the pool.

Simon (31:04.247)
Yeah.

Well, I go as being me, I take an alternative path. So I'm actually interested in how those themes inform your psychology. So you're dealing with it at a talent level, which is, you know, what do you perceive? This is great. Activate this process. You add this value collectively. You can you have this talent and you can contribute to that team. What I've been really interested in is how those those combinations generate your psychology.

Sarah Collins (31:15.992)
Mmm.

Sarah Collins (31:36.569)
Okay.

Simon (31:36.959)
psychology is how you create your own reality and your reality is your sanity. So I'm very interested in how we interact with our world as a human.

and as a psychological being. The talent stuff is potent, it's amazing. It's absolutely incredible. It's amazing to say to a person, you're talented. Like today's session I had, this woman said just, you know, and it's common, is I didn't see this as a talent. I did not see this as something that I could contribute to my team.

Sarah Collins (32:09.488)
Mm-hmm.

Simon (32:14.21)
But for me, what I've found in teamwork, particularly in with people, if we lack confidence.

We can understand the talent, but we don't use it as well as we could because we lack inherent confidence. So I'm more interested in confidence and capacity and the way I think and the way I process, because I've recognized that psychology and confidence are intimately linked and that if we want to do really great work, we have to be confident in ourselves. So what is the story we are telling ourselves the entire time that is impacting how we interact? And if you know how to filter those themes to

tell you that story, you can actually begin to understand the story you're telling yourself. So that's the aspect for me depth is goes into the psychological space as opposed to depth in terms of just the talent spaces. It's just a different dimension.

Sarah Collins (33:06.768)
Do you find that you do more one-on-one coaching then or are you working with a lot of teams and taking them there?

Simon (33:14.19)
So me being me, I can't call myself a coach if I don't want to be coached. I actually tend to go into the situation is that I say I facilitate understanding and the emphasis of what I do is do you understand how you think, work, make decisions? Do you understand how your psychology works?

Because I'm driving for confidence first. I can apply the talent metric onto that process and I can do that in teamwork.

which is why gravitate towards team dynamics more than just talents and strengths. So my deep passion is the psychology of how we connect with ourselves and with each other. So all team dynamics is, is how I behave and how you perceive that and the story you tell yourself about the behaviors that I interact. And that's the game that fascinates me. That's the science that really interests me.

So to answer your question, I don't do the conventional strength stuff too much in terms of this is your talent, this is what you do. tend to, most of my work is pivoting towards the psychological impact of confidence and how that impacts the way we interrelate in a team basis. Which is why, again, I jumped on your topic because I thought, I wonder how many coaches really understand that this is also your code to your mind.

Bill Dippel (34:43.861)
Yeah.

Simon (34:44.701)
is really cool. It might be a frightening thought for some, I think, my god, do really want to understand what goes on my head? But if you have been labeled ADHD, if you've been labeled neurodiverse, if you've been labeled something that has a negative connotation, then it's really cool to understand there's nothing wrong. Because I can show you your DNA, that this is your normal. This is, according to someone else, you look strange, but this is your normal. And that's where I get quite passionate, as you can see.

Bill Dippel (35:12.833)
Well, Simon, I absolutely adore that you brought in the hard science background that you had to this. I would say I was in hard sciences outside of this for a long time, for decades. And that is a door opener when I am working with people is why did I choose this when I'm asked how often I can say, look at the actual white paper research, look at the true.

nature of what Gallup did to justify and to break this down. And that definitely opens doors. It allows people to understand how it works. And I would say, too, that's where my passion then shows is because I am backing it in a way of decades that I got to work in sciences and I can I can make that happen to the end of, know, it's different in a different way. And coming back to that fancier personality test.

Simon (35:38.67)
Mm-hmm.

Bill Dippel (36:08.721)
Very early on in my college career. I took Myers-Briggs and Thought it was great. You know, it's wonderful. Okay, you said kind of who I am I'm a Fairly rare ENFP. I guess five five or seven percent are ENFPs I've met other ENFPs that are nothing like me. I you put us in a room. We would not even Remotely people would say you have nothing in common with each other

Simon (36:12.19)
Mm-hmm.

Simon (36:30.592)
Yeah.

Bill Dippel (36:35.937)
And to the point that you made about how unique this is, and I think most of our listeners will know, I can put you in a room with a hundred Relators and they all have it as number one on your report, but those boxes will not be the same. The write-ups are completely different for all of the Relators in that room. And Gallup does that magic by knowing what the assigned themes are around it. And you brought that up so well, how good these come together, how often.

Simon (37:01.73)
Hmm.

Bill Dippel (37:05.917)
we read, I read a positivity theme the other day just to get in front of somebody prior to coaching them. And it's so funny. So much of it I felt had nothing to do with positivity, but it highlighted some of the other themes this person had in their their profile. So I just want to give you kudos for bringing up the hard science side, how it feeds into this and

Simon (37:24.36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill Dippel (37:35.531)
to acknowledge the difficulty of what you're trying to do, which is take it from where most coaches do go. I want to give you some strength and ability around talent, and I want you to understand it, because we do do that a lot. But I want to go a deeper level. want to talk about, from a psychology point of view, how you step into the world, which then leads into your talents and your themes. taking it, you're going all the way to the base.

Simon (37:55.575)
Mm. Mm. Mm.

Mmm. Mmm.

Bill Dippel (38:04.737)
of what Gallup would tell you we do from that base point of view. I, again, fascinating to hear you say it. I think our coaching community would love to hear it and love to hear how you do it. And just the master class you've given us already, I find really, really fruitful in hearing that. And I just want to say your woo is on fire today as well. So it's in that top 10. So, yeah.

Simon (38:18.883)
Mm.

Simon (38:29.812)
it's not going anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. So the three woos on the call, except they're manifesting completely differently. Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Dippel (38:38.549)
Yes, yes. And that's that's great point, right? We're all woos and we all do it so differently. So, yeah.

Simon (38:44.894)
Well, I'm going to use my charm to tell you the hard truth. Sarah's going to use her charm to tell you you're amazing and Paul's going to choose a charm to help you understand yourself better. So it's a wonderful thing on those dynamics. And that's why it would really drew me to the psychology. But you mentioned MBTI. The biggest challenge with MBTI is the accuracy on how, so the framework's very, very solid and very robust. But how to get access to that information is dependent on

Bill Dippel (38:49.025)
Ha

Sarah Collins (39:07.962)
Mm-hmm.

Simon (39:14.728)
a questioning process and MBTI has two steps to it to try and filter down what you're doing and it's still inaccurate so it might have typed you as an ENFP but we're not sure that whether you actually are. So what I love about the work that Gallup did is that the accuracy with which it assesses your basic DNA is unbelievable, like unbelievable.

And as I say, when you understand how to read that 434 to see that particular map, it's fascinating. And that's why I say, I don't think we fully realized its potential. A lot of Donald Clifton's work, he died. It's unfinished. And I don't think there's been a massive drive to build on it simply because Clifton Strange says it is. It's just incredibly successful.

But it's guys like me who always looking for the alternative, always looking for the kind of what is this? What is the unseen? So someone says to me, we know this. go, well, then I'm going to go find another path. Why would I look at something that everyone knows? So let me find what something people don't know. And that's my personality type. I draw, I take that route. I take that route with my themes. And again, I think it's phenomenal. But I'm an evangelist for adding

extra to that so that those interested can apply it.

Sarah Collins (40:41.028)
love what you're saying because I think there can be a misconception with CliftonStrengths because we talk about it focuses on what's right with you, not what's wrong with you. That people can think like, this is just the feel good assessment, right? We're not going to think about weakness. We're just focusing on what we do good. And so what we know as coaches, and I think even more what you're saying about the psychology of all of this,

is that there's actually so much evidence about your performance, about your outcomes, about some measurable impact that you're having in the world based on the DNA sequence that you're seeing and the strengths. And we all know that usually the things that are getting in our way, they're not at the bottom of the list. They're those top talents that you have there and how they're impacting how you come across and see the world.

Do you think that's true or am I misinterpreting what you're saying?

Simon (41:35.982)
No, it's a powerful comment. But me being who I am is that I like to reframe what you've said to your talents are positive because they're your best intentions. This is a way that you can shape the world. And a lot of the framework that I'm looking around our psychology is that our talents create a perception on how the world should look. And

We walk in and we go, let's take you Sarah for example, you're walking in and go, you know what?

We need to get this party going. We need to get this up. We need to get the energy up. We need to get people encouraged. We need to lift their spirits because how are they going to deal with their lives if they like wallowing at the bottom here in this particular process? How are you going to deal with your topics if you're upset? So what we're going to do is we're to do an energizer. We're going to do this. You're going to take this. You're going to do this. And you know what? When I'm finished with you, you're going to be surprised at how energized you are. It's like you go, it's so easy for you.

And people go, well, actually, that was amazing. I did come in. I didn't know how to manage my emotions, but Sarah's got me into an incredible place. So now, wow, thank you. In that space, what you're doing is you're going, we need to shape this environment. And so you bring this intentionality. The challenge that we've got is it's very, very undisciplined. So.

What we're doing is the concept of mastery is how we discipline the intentionality, how we discipline the way we shape. And discipline for me has two elements, the timing with which we do things and the method with which we do that. The challenge is that if, and this is what drew me to psychology, is if we lack confidence, we're going to drive our themes on the whole time because this is how we generate our value. This is how we generate our meaning. This is how we generate

Simon (43:29.186)
being seen. So let me give you a simple example. If you're an energizer like you, Sarah, and nobody's noticing you, and it looks like no one cares, and even worse, someone's upset with you, let me tell you how that's going to react. And you know this, you're gonna dial it up. You're basically going to go, fuck you, excuse my language. You're gonna go, I'm going to basically, I should have warned you, I'm a South African. And you know what, I'm gonna prove this to you now.

Bill Dippel (43:51.815)
No, it's good. Bring it.

Simon (43:57.1)
The challenge with that process is now you get quite strong and somebody is very sensitive to their strength. You know what, time out Sarah, just like calm down. You're going, no, that person, they must come here right now because you know what, they're not understanding this process. And so we have the best intentions. And this is what I love about CliftonStrengths and the work I do is I say to people, you have the best intentions. These talents show you what you love to bring and empathy wants to care.

It's best intentions. I want to support you. Okay, cool. What's the method and when are you doing that? So it's now a good time to be empathetic and how are you being empathetic? So you've got to discipline that process on that element. And I think that that's why you say, I love what you say because it is positive.

The negative we're looking at is what are you doing with it? What are you doing with that intentionality? And that's where we look at our blind spots and our negativities is because the application of that is pretty amateurish. It's pretty amateurish. I don't like the word raw. I prefer more amateurish. It's very, very low level. I'm afraid, you know, you can do better in terms of how you create that space.

Sarah Collins (45:05.232)
Mmm.

Sarah Collins (45:12.934)
Right. I just want to say we don't even know each other very well and you just read me like a book. I'm all naked in here today. Wow. It's.

Simon (45:22.51)
No, it's a beautiful intention. And the point basically is this is how we can enable people and go, I see you, I see you. But if you do this and this, people are going to turn around and they're going to go, wow, like this is exquisite.

And for me, mastery is about how we take that intentionality and we discipline it and we apply it to a great method. And I learned this because, you know, with all those influencing themes, it's not like I have a problem speaking. You know, I have a problem shutting up. But one would expect that you don't have to learn anything if you speak.

Sarah Collins (46:04.23)
Same.

Simon (46:11.31)
Until I saw a presentation of a woman who took through a method of how you hold an audience in 12 minutes. And she talked about rhythm and she talked about energy and she talked about timing and it was mind blowing for me. And I went, that's incredible. And I started incorporating the method and I just watched my impact change. Completely changed. So it's effortless for me to speak.

Sarah Collins (46:35.726)
Mm-hmm.

Simon (46:41.624)
but it's hard to apply a method. And the idea of skill is that when the skill is applied to nature, you get it quickly. So I, as a speaker with the right method, I just go up like this. I just go straight up. If you try and give the method to somebody who's not comfortable speaking, it's not gonna really help. And that was the concept of what Don Clifton was really saying. So seeing people is not looking at the negative, it's saying that was amateurish, you could do better. That's it, and here's a method and you'll do better.

And so that's the simple logic. It's very affirming.

Sarah Collins (47:18.207)
Sorry, I'm just taking copious notes right now. I'm just here for the master class.

Simon (47:20.984)
That's pleasure.

Bill Dippel (47:25.793)
I'm just going to play this one on loop routinely in my head, right? I get, yeah. You know what, Sarah, I'm not even going to release this one to the public. This is just you and I getting some good stuff on the, on the back, right? Well.

Sarah Collins (47:30.042)
That's right, I'm just-

Simon (47:35.66)
Wow, fantastic, far away.

But this is why I say I've got, so I can do that, Sarah. I can do that because I've spent a lot of time understanding the psychology of those themes and how it impacts confidence. And I've seen, I did 15 years in education, high school education. I was a high school teacher for my sins. And I say for my sins because there's nothing harder than teaching pubescent kids. A 16 year old is one of the most brutal animals on the planet because they will find your weakness.

Sarah Collins (47:39.246)
I know.

Sarah Collins (48:02.854)
Preach.

Simon (48:10.967)
They specialize in it. So, oh no, no, no, no. So you show any vulnerability or any unfitness, they will find that quickly in that space and they will cone in. So a part of my survival instinct was basically, I don't want this going pear shaped. So I have to work people out. And obviously I had the talent because I'm individualization.

Bill Dippel (48:12.905)
and exploit it. yeah. Yeah.

Simon (48:33.87)
And part of that was starting to understand the psychology and how the psychology impacted state and how it impacted their confidence. Because obviously as a teacher, you've got discipline problems, you've got behavioral issues, you've got kids reacting in your class. How do you manage behavior in your classroom? Because one kid can break down an entire classroom. And it's phenomenal how quickly they can do that. And me being me was going, I will never lose the classroom.

And the challenge was there were some kids who took that as a challenge. you know, so that drove a lot of my interest in terms of helping people. And the overriding thing was a kid who lacks confidence, who seeks connection and value and validation, which is a fundamental need, is going to play out as a consequence of their personality.

Sarah Collins (49:08.134)
Mmm.

Simon (49:29.504)
So our personality is the expression of ourselves. It's how we express ourselves. So if you've got a lot of influencing themes, you're going to speak up and express that need verbally. If you haven't, then you're going to tend to keep it inside. And if you've got relationship themes, you're going to go to someone else and you're going to have you have to have someone else that you can download to. So then you're going to connect and they have to encourage the support. And so you start seeing these personality types.

When I first looked at CliftonStrengths, I had got 15 years of data on an individual and my mind was blown because I suddenly realized that the CliftonStrengths explained these personalities that I've been dealing with for 15 years. And I realized, my God, if I see some of these kids, I need to pretend I never knew them or I must apologize straight up because I got it so wrong.

in terms of how I was dealing with them. And I realized, oh my god, this is just their themes playing out. was like, I was going, why are you so stupid? It's like, and they were going, you it's just not our process, my reality.

Sarah Collins (50:38.64)
Mm-hmm.

Bill Dippel (50:39.009)
Wow, wow. I wanna ask you really quickly too, cause we're gonna jump into the kind of the last couple questions, but from a psychology point of view, we haven't touched on it. How about competition for you? Cause I keep hearing a little bit of competition, you know, those kids are not gonna take this over. Yeah, curious, hit me.

Simon (50:46.51)
Mmm.

Simon (50:55.63)
No, it's not going anywhere. Yeah. And so I think the drive of competition is rooted in, it is survival of the fittest. Now, what that basically means is that if you're not constantly evolving to be in the prime position, you don't get to choose. Okay, so the simple logic.

is the first to the pie can choose the best piece. Okay, now you can socialize that and you can say, well, I can rationalize, I get to the first piece, then I'm to share the first piece. You know, I don't really mind what scripting you create about that, but the entire drive is the recognition that if you're not at the top, your ability to find the right resources is going to be limited. It's going to be extremely hard.

So those of us with high competition intrinsically understand that you need to be number one. The methods we use to be number one becomes the value decision.

But what it's given me is understanding that if you're not constantly re-evolving, re-examining, re-questioning where you are in the continuum, how do you stay relevant? Because if you're number 10, you're not relevant. So I listened to your comment earlier, Sarah, and Ball said that you're sort of dripping with CliftonStrengths coaches and you're all lovely people. But at the back of my mind, you're going, but how do I differentiate myself? Because that's the sub-reality. I want to pay balls at the end of the

and as nice as we are if we just share and there's nothing left like heart like that doesn't make any sense even though we're nice people and and I sit there and I basically go well we've got to create a strategy that leverages your unique competitive advantage

Simon (52:53.76)
in the most optimal way where everyone has what they need. That's the big puzzle for me. That's it. So competition for me is a simple recognition that you have to be at the top. You have to be there because otherwise you're going to take the drinks.

How you get there, what you do with that information is then a very interesting conversation. Very interesting conversation. And that's another podcast. But, yeah, it drives me. It is relentless. Relentless. And Gallup's definition of comparison plays out. And how the ranking works is I pick where I need to be top three.

Sarah Collins (53:27.078)
Mm-hmm.

Simon (53:37.558)
And if I can't be top three, I'm not interested. I don't even enter. So it's exactly what they say. Why would you try and improve an area where you cannot be top three? And you instinctively know. So the maximizing me goes, it's an individualization. Simon, you're not going to be top three there.

And it's actually how I got to StrengthFinder in South Africa. I left education and very disillusioned and I wanted to do people development and I looked at all the psychometrics and too many people were too far ahead of me. And I went, I can't do this.

And then I found by accident CliftonStrengths because the team I was working with had a book called Now Discover Your Strengths, Mark Spockian. I watched the trombone player and I literally was like a light from heaven going, my God, I've just discovered my reality. This is it. And then I did some basic research because we didn't have chat in those days. You had to physically read or have a look at that process. And I went, no one's doing this. And I went, hallelujah.

distant for this entire process, here we go. And I took the book and I said, all I gotta do is I have a philosophy. If you know something, someone doesn't, you're useful. You've just gotta find someone who wants to know. So you don't have to be excellent, you've just gotta know something that someone needs to know and you could tell them that. So I said, I know something you don't and I stand up and gave my first presentation. It was 2008.

and life-changing for me. I plagiarized everything in Marcus Buckingham's stuff. I think I showed half his videos and I said, this is, so excited. This was amazing in 2008 and the rest is history. And that's what's driven me. What's driven me into behavior is competitive advantage, relevance, trying to drive forward. And stronger the ethic is how do I help coaches?

Simon (55:42.4)
remain viable in their passion. I'm very interested in the business case of what you do. That's very interesting for me.

Bill Dippel (55:52.001)
Yeah, yeah. Well, as far as going on to what's interesting for you and how you get there, you've just hit on competition and how it drives and motivates you and how you move into that. One of the segments that we have on all of, we ask all of our, our, our guests is the firework moment. And that is a reflection of when you're all in, like everything's flowing. You are, you are in the flow state.

Which themes are at play for you when you feel like you're in that state, Simon?

Simon (56:27.576)
top 20. So if you look at the themes and their specific context, build their specific context, and it shouldn't surprise you, it's a competitive environment. You've grabbed everybody's attention. You're giving them nuggets that know they're to change and they will listen in their process and they are completely in the space.

Bill Dippel (56:29.803)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Simon (56:56.686)
That is for me the firework moment. That is like I was born for this moment. I used to say to people there isn't a stadium big enough for me. It's like put me in that particular moment and I don't care if there's a million people. It's like...

If they want to be there, I will talk in that space. It's also equally terrifying because if you don't have developed the method and you haven't mastered what you do, it can be also the last moment. You get to enjoy that because it's very brief and it doesn't last very long. yeah, I know. So competitive sport, interestingly enough, is where I thrive. So I've done quite a bit of work in applying CliftonStrengths and psychology to top sportsmen.

Sarah Collins (57:26.406)
Yeah.

Bill Dippel (57:29.728)
Right.

Simon (57:43.054)
And the concept of standing by a field where you've known you've impacted a team in terms of their psychology and self-awareness and confidence together with the strategy and the methodology and then you see them win, that's on par with those particular moments. That is just amazing. And tomorrow, Saturday the 27th of September is the Rugby World Cup for Women in

England, there's a US side that's played there and it is the World Cup for women's rugby tomorrow in London and I've been intimately involved. The England coach John Mitchell is a personal friend of mine and I've been working with him for the last 10 years. So tomorrow is quite a significant moment because England host in England and have to win and it's going to be a very interesting psychology space to play out for that particular area. So tomorrow's a big day.

Sarah Collins (58:42.052)
Wow.

Bill Dippel (58:43.521)
I have to do this to myself, Simon, and I'm sorry. I have to tell you this before I ask you the next question, and that is I'm an All Blacks fan.

Simon (58:55.278)
Well, someone has to support them, that's fine. mean, if you want to celebrate mediocrity, someone has to at least be able to encourage them and support them, that's fine.

Sarah Collins (58:59.59)
Yeah.

Yeah, someone has to be a loser, Bill.

Bill Dippel (59:02.624)
Ha ha!

Bill Dippel (59:07.425)
I became an All Blacks fan when a friend of mine lived here with us and he was a huge English rugby fan. So I had to pick someone that could, you know, yeah, yeah, it was fantastic. So, all right, so we've hit on that wonderful moment when you're feeling in that flow. Let's talk about the other end of it. When you're in that dumpster fire moment when nothing is working, when you didn't hit with those million people or whatever.

Simon (59:17.134)
Brilliant, Yeah, No, it's my game, yeah.

Bill Dippel (59:35.857)
whatever was at play for you there. What themes do you think are getting in your way in those moments?

Simon (59:41.962)
So maybe I can answer it as I do, slightly differently. I believe that we're happiest when we get to express who we are in a competent way. That's the FAP. The inverse of that is when what you're trying to do is not landing on any level. So let me give you a simple example. I'm trying to influence and people don't want to be influenced.

I'm trying to inform and no one wants the lesson. I'm trying to support but no one gives a shit. It's like in that moment everything I have to offer the world is just falling short. Those are the hard moments when you're going, well, I don't have anything else.

So, Sarah, you're going, well, I'm encouraging, but no one actually wants to be encouraged. In fact, if people going, leave me alone, I actually would like to have my own personal party party. And you're going, well, well, then I'm going to go here. And they're going, leave me alone, Sarah, I'm busy. Or whatever the process is. So you're wandering around the neighborhood going, I'm trying to help somebody, and they're all shutting your doors. It's like...

Those are the extremely hard moments. So what's getting in your way is the simple reality that what you're trying to give the world is being rejected. It's not being accepted. The blind spots, however, are the themes at the bottom of my, the 10 to 15 themes at the bottom of my list.

where that's where all structure sits. So it's consistency, discipline, harmony, context, they all sit at the bottom, deliberative. This is all around attention to detail. This is all around follow through. This is all about repetition. Well, that's where happiness goes to die for me. So those low moments basically is Simon, sit down, get the following done and please do it for the next three hours.

Sarah Collins (01:01:27.033)
Hahaha!

Simon (01:01:37.038)
Okay, so that's another version of pure depression from your side where I go, hate my life. I just hate my life right now. It's like, so give me admin and I will hate my life very, very quickly. But the hard hitting ones is when who I am, it's just not working. It's just not working. I don't know if you guys resonate.

Bill Dippel (01:01:46.433)
Yeah.

Sarah Collins (01:01:55.76)
Yeah.

Sarah Collins (01:01:59.866)
Yes, I resonate and I think you articulated it really well. I love how you describe the two versions of a dumpster fire. One is when you're trying to give the world your talents and they're rejecting them. And the other one is those weaknesses that you have and you have to sit in them for whatever reason. And it's like, this is, they're both miserable, but for sort of different reasons.

Simon (01:02:11.074)
Yeah.

Bill Dippel (01:02:20.641)
Yeah. And not only do we resonate with it, but we've intentionally chosen these questions for all of our guests, because I think that resonates with a lot of people, right? When the different ways those dumpster fire moments happen and the firework moment. don't want to, I don't want to say just the bad resonates. think both of them are pretty valid questions. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon (01:02:26.952)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.

Sarah Collins (01:02:29.158)
Hmm.

Simon (01:02:38.19)
It's part of the journey, isn't it? I mean, that's the journey. And I will add something to the dumpster, which I suddenly realized now, it's when you get misunderstood. So one of the worst moments for me is when people don't understand my intentionality. So they're going, Simon, this is a journey. I go, no, it wasn't. I was trying to do this. And it leads to a negative experience. And you'll know with woo, I mean, to have people disappointed in you from an experience is like the worst. It's like...

Sarah Collins (01:02:46.406)
Yes.

Sarah Collins (01:03:04.624)
Right.

Simon (01:03:05.794)
You you didn't just fail, you did worse than failure, which is basically now you're upset with me, which is like the opposite of what I was trying to achieve. So the real heavy moments is probably being misunderstood and having the negative context. Those are the really hard ones. But being philosophical, I believe that those get you to ask the hard questions about yourself as to why it didn't land, what to...

how to do it. Those are the shadow moments where you realize that perhaps fear, ego and a variety of things have got in the way and maybe you need to reset and you need to get a better method and you need to grow, which allows you then to get the firecracker moments. So I think it's a bit of a cycle.

Sarah Collins (01:03:50.586)
Yeah, it makes me, it reminds me of what you said earlier about the amateur, the amateur play of the strengths, you know, so maybe when you didn't hit and you were misunderstood and you weren't seen in the way you wanted to, maybe it's cause some of those talents were showing up in that amateur way and you, you actually need to do the work to, you know, get those to a more mature state. So they're actually understood better. And your intent is also the impact.

Simon (01:04:04.451)
Yeah.

Simon (01:04:10.057)
Exactly. Spot on.

Simon (01:04:18.924)
I think that's refined me during the years. know, is just going if it didn't land and education I realized really did that because if a kid did not understand in my class, I took that personally with my competitiveness. I was like, no one leaves my classroom without understanding. And with that learner, you know, I need to give you this method. Everyone must be able to do it. You don't have to all get 90%, but I want you all at least to try. And...

Sarah Collins (01:04:33.626)
Yeah.

Simon (01:04:48.706)
That's helped me grow myself because I've gone, okay, that didn't land. What did I not get right? As opposed to get wrong, because it's not about what gets wrong. It's I need to refine the method to get it right. And so it's a construct and you'll be nice with your positivity as well. Siri, I've got it. At least that's a positive construct. It's not around what you're getting wrong. It's what you're not getting right.

and that can lead on that process. So for me, and positivity is down there at about 15, very much for me it's basically let's create a constructive method to how you improve. So what could you do better next time as opposed to what did you do wrong this time?

Bill Dippel (01:05:35.169)
Wow. Well, I mean, from a non certified coach, think we got them the full on the scientist, non certified master class today from Simon Hurry. Simon, your your your passion is very evident, as is your knowledge and wisdom of of this system. And I I can't think of a

Sarah Collins (01:05:35.557)
Mm-hmm.

Simon (01:05:42.83)
Scientists.

Sarah Collins (01:05:46.608)
I'm a scientist.

Bill Dippel (01:06:04.491)
better guest that could handle this particular question. So I'm really glad you chose that.

Simon (01:06:08.952)
Thank you. Yeah, Easy choice.

Sarah Collins (01:06:10.534)
Me too. And I'm just seriously wondering how do I siphon some of this influencing themes from you and into myself because I am enamored and impressed by how articulate you are, how thoughtful you are, and the way that you're able to communicate this exact thing that we talk about all the time, but you have this little different twist on it and the way you talk about the DNA and the psychology of people. I think it is such a fresh perspective. I think it...

A lot of coaches could learn from you to help the clients that we have in the world go deeper and have a deeper understanding to get those results that they wish to see in the world. So I'm just so grateful to you for coming on today and sharing that with us.

Simon (01:06:42.638)
Hmm.

Simon (01:06:53.237)
Mm, pleasure.

I think at the end of it, being a scientist and a teacher, it's what's best practice? How do we enable the right methods for us to leverage those talents? And a lot of that process is these are your talents, this is how you improve, this is how you get better and better and this is what you need to do.

And I think that's driven me to generate the materials. And when COVID hit, I watched my entire thing that I bought disappear and I took a random kind of shot the dark. And so I launched a Facebook page and I called it Talent to Titan. And I invited one or two coaches to join. And that's grown over the years. And there's around about 900 who have joined.

and I've looked at that and that's evolved now to a website called talentotitan.com which is really around my thinking and my desire to help individuals apply CliftonStrengths particularly in the behavioural lens, the psychological lens, the team dynamics space.

I've got, Gallup's stuff is superb around the themes and their nature and their talents. So any coaches that are interested, and they don't even have to be coaches, anyone interested in applying this incredible framework to a behavioral lens in terms of psychology and in terms of dynamics, that's where my work is going at the moment.

Simon (01:08:25.645)
And I have a pure ethic of understanding. And it was an epiphany I had with my own life because with significance and competition, I have to confess that there's an ego involved that goes, I want everyone to listen to me. So 100%. You know, I'm not even going to pretend that doesn't happen. It's like, my God, I need I need my website, my my podcast. People can come to me. The millions can subscribe and.

Sarah Collins (01:08:45.082)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Collins (01:08:53.51)
Stadium of a million people.

Simon (01:08:55.406)
100%. There it is. They're going to listen to me. And then I said, and I tell you what I really understood is that sometimes we can be misunderstood. And that is a behavioral thing. And why would I dilute my message because people misunderstand me? Why not enable people with a message who present it with a different flavor, a different color?

a different personality. Same message, different personality.

And it really struck me and I said, if you want to have impact, Simon, empower people with the right knowledge and allow them to breathe their personality into that knowledge and they will find people who will sit at their feet and enjoy what they have to say. So I completely changed strategies and I sat and I thought, I'm going to dedicate myself to useful ways of working that people can gain access to and apply in their special way in their communities. But the overriding thing is

I want you to be more competitive. I want you to find your niche and I want you to find your tribe and I want you to give them the best possible information to change their lives. And so that's what drives behind Talent to Titan. That's what's driving my current project in what I'm doing. And everything within that basically is how do we improve the way we relate as humans because we need it. The world's not working too well at the moment.

in terms of the way we relate and connect. Yeah, so it's a perfect opportunity to help people work out how to relate better and how to see each other and get rid of this noise that social media is giving us at the moment. So that's what drives me is very much that realization of going rather educate than dominate. And so it's still a competitive strategy. But it's...

Sarah Collins (01:10:27.181)
Isn't that the truth?

Sarah Collins (01:10:51.332)
Yeah, because you can impact more people that way.

Bill Dippel (01:10:51.846)
It is. It has. Yeah.

Simon (01:10:55.254)
zero, 100%, 100%. But I realized that I needed to be about me. I'd much rather, the greatest value is Simon, that method you gave me really worked. And I tweet it and I go, wonderful. And I got this impact and I go, well done. Now please share with someone else then. So pay it forward in what you do.

Sarah Collins (01:10:56.889)
Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Collins (01:11:10.309)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Collins (01:11:16.164)
Yeah. Well, you have taken this very non-competitive person and you have infused me. I'm like, yeah, what's my competitive advantage? I got to drill this down. I feel like you, you have infused me to think about that and, that's a feat in itself. Cause you know, I just want us all to get along and be happy. So I'm feeling your vibes today.

Simon (01:11:25.75)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Simon (01:11:36.888)
Good?

Bill Dippel (01:11:37.799)
And Simon, I'd point out too, we're going to have your website, your mugshot, all of it, your high competition website based mugshot on our website as well. So anyone interested following up listening to that coaches or otherwise, as you pointed out. if Sarah, if you liked this episode, I mean, give us some likes, talk to us about it. Right. Yeah. So

Simon (01:11:45.229)
Yeah.

Simon (01:11:50.722)
Yeah.

Simon (01:11:56.686)
Mm.

Sarah Collins (01:12:02.422)
Like, share, subscribe, tell your friends!

Simon (01:12:04.366)
How can you not like this episode? Because I want to know if you didn't like this episode, I'm coming to find you. And yeah, yeah, you will like this episode. that's... Oh no, no, 100%. You need to spread this. If you haven't told 100 people about this, I'm gonna come find you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bill Dippel (01:12:06.571)
How could you not?

He will.

Sarah Collins (01:12:12.28)
Yeah, you will like it. And we don't just mean like it. mean, hit that button friends. Your mouse isn't that far away.

Bill Dippel (01:12:17.845)
Hit it, like it, like it more and more.

Sarah Collins (01:12:23.696)
That's right, it's just a thumb tap, you can do it. Come on people, pull up your phone. I know you're scrolling Instagram right now, give it a little thumb tap, tap, tap, taparoo.

Bill Dippel (01:12:23.947)
So good.

Simon (01:12:28.543)
Exactly, Zerat. Yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

Bill Dippel (01:12:33.521)
Simon, you are engaging and fascinating. So thank you very much for coming on today, for giving us some wisdom. And your passion and all of that influencing is very, evident. So thank you for having that on display today.

Simon (01:12:38.99)
Thank you for having me.

Simon (01:12:51.36)
Listen, I couldn't turn it down if I wanted to. So it's literally people going, Simon, is this your tone down version? I'm going, I don't know what you mean. It's like, don't. What's tone down, Sarah? What is tone down? You tell me. I don't know.

Bill Dippel (01:12:54.305)
I

Sarah Collins (01:13:00.71)
There is no volume button here. She's stuck.

Bill Dippel (01:13:00.831)
I don't know what that is, yeah.

Bill Dippel (01:13:05.353)
And we were so excited to have you. Right. And and we were so excited to have you. We did it over multiple days. Right. We were like, no, no, it's OK. It failed. We'll make it work. Right. So, yeah.

Sarah Collins (01:13:08.422)
You

Simon (01:13:15.266)
Yeah, we've got it better and we've got it better and we've got it better. It's dedication to the craft. Yeah.

Bill Dippel (01:13:19.999)
And we got there. We got there. Excellent. All right. So with that, Simon, thank you so very much. Thank you to our Earthness for listening and toning in. Thank you to our Earthness for hitting with your thumbs right now how much you like this episode. And with that, we will talk soon.

Sarah Collins (01:13:20.368)
That's right. Well, we did it, folks.

Simon (01:13:34.99)
Press it.

Sarah Collins (01:13:38.79)
Bye!

Simon (01:13:39.416)
Thank you.

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