ASCEND by Ducks Unlimited

Want more turkeys on your property? It starts with how you manage your land.

 Ascend host Adrian Jessen sits down with Courtney Conring, wildlife biologist and Assistant Chief of Research for Alabama Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries, to break down what really drives turkey populations—and what landowners can do to improve them.
From food sources and cover to prescribed fire and predator pressure, Courtney explains how habitat—not hunting—is the biggest factor affecting turkey numbers. Whether you own 20 acres or manage large tracts of land, this episode gives you practical steps to create better turkey habitat and stronger wildlife populations.

In this episode, you’ll learn:
  • The fundamentals of habitat management (food, water, cover)
  • What turkeys eat—and how to provide it year‑round
  • Why insects and early successional plants are critical for poults
  • How to create openings and improve land for turkey use
  • When and why prescribed fire makes a difference
  • How cover protects hens and nests from predators
  • The truth about predator management vs. habitat quality
  • Why private landowners play a critical role in turkey conservation

Follow along for more real conversations, outdoor stories, and insights from women shaping the future of hunting and conservation.
Join the Ascend Instagram community at @duascend and http://www.ducks.org/ascend.

The Ascend Podcast by Ducks Unlimited is Sponsored by:

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Creators and Guests

Host
Adrian Jessen
Adrian Jessen is a reviewer, writer, and adult-onset hunter best known as co-founder and on-camera host of the YouTube channel Review This Thing. Since 2020, she and her husband Robbie have published thorough, real‑world reviews and tutorials on optics, firearms, archery, and outdoor gear—built around a promise to be complete, honest, and unbiased. Adrian also contributes to titles such as North American Deer Hunter and Crossbow Magazine. When she isn’t testing new kit, she’s likely chasing spring gobblers or helping new hunters choose reliable gear and build safe, ethical skills.

What is ASCEND by Ducks Unlimited?

Ascend is a multimedia platform that spotlights the millions of outdoorswomen across our country who go hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, biking, running, and perform important conservation work every day.

Our web series and podcast feature guests who share their experiences with a focus on entertainment, education, and authenticity. Our viewers and listeners will get to know them and learn all about their passion for the outdoors. Whether you've been in outdoor communities all your life or are just getting started, Ascend is the place for you to follow your story!

Brought to you by Ducks Unlimited.

Adrian Jessen:

Do you want more turkeys on your hunting property? Then you are not gonna wanna miss this week's episode of the ASCEND podcast by Ducks Unlimited.

VO:

Welcome to the ASCEND podcast, a podcast by and for women in the outdoors. Every episode delivers real stories, practical how to's, and a welcoming community to help you start, sharpen, or rediscover your passion for the outdoors. Authentic women, real stories, outdoor adventures, ASCEND. Presented by Ducks Unlimited, the leader in wetlands conservation. Your next adventure starts here, the ASCEND podcast.

VO:

Don't forget to rate and review the ASCEND podcast. It's the best way to grow the podcast and help other women discover the next step on their outdoors journey.

Adrian Jessen:

I'm joined by Courtney Conring, amazing wildlife biologist who has a ton of information for you about habitat management and getting more turkeys. Make sure you watch. Welcome to the ASCEND podcast by Ducks Unlimited. I'm Adrian, and today we are gonna talk about how you can manage your property for better turkey hunting. Today, I am joined by Courtney Conring.

Adrian Jessen:

She is currently the assistant chief I'm gonna read it because it's a lot of words. The assistant chief of the wildlife section of the Alabama Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries Division for the Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. So, Courtney, thank you so much for being with us today.

Courtenay Conring:

I'm very happy to be here, and you did great on articulating all of that. Like, it's so funny because most people do not get that right the first time. You did

Adrian Jessen:

Good deal. I kinda figured out the breakdown. Yeah. Was like, okay. I got it.

Adrian Jessen:

I got it. So Courtney and I have been Instagram friends for a few years now. I actually watched I saw you do a couple of turkey hunting videos and, you know, I absolutely love turkey hunting. So whenever I saw those anytime I see a cold chick turkey hunt, I wanna reach out and and connect. So it's always a great bonding moment.

Adrian Jessen:

But For sure. We I started following you on Instagram, and then, we bumped into each other. It's like two or three years ago, I think, at the NWTF convention. And I think that was cool. Just to get to put real faces with with profiles, and then, I think we've just been able to to stay in touch and follow along.

Adrian Jessen:

I've really enjoyed following along on your journey, especially seeing a lot of this wildlife management, habitat management stuff that you've been doing. It's very interesting to me. So I knew when I wanted to talk about this topic, you would be absolutely perfect for it. So, Courtney, before we jump in, first of all, tell us about yourself. Tell us how you got to this point, what how you got interested in all this.

Adrian Jessen:

Just give us your whole your whole backstory.

Courtenay Conring:

Okay. Yeah. Initially, I guess it can all start with my daddy taking me hunting, you know, growing up. Like, we grew up in the country, and for me, it was just a way of life. I don't remember my life before hunting and at the outdoors, and so, we were just immersed in it.

Courtenay Conring:

And so I got to be in middle school and high school, recognized that I wanted to do something in the natural sciences, you know, earth science of some sort. Didn't know what that was gonna look like. But come to find out, I had an ag teacher who he taught us he actually had a class on wildlife management in high school. And so yeah. And so he's like, you should go be a wildlife biologist.

Courtenay Conring:

And he was like a big time duck hunter, and, you know, he had gotten a a degree from Auburn, and so he knew about the wildlife schools. And I was like, a game warden? He's like, no. A biologist. And I kinda learned from there.

Courtenay Conring:

And so, yeah, after that, after he told me that was an option, like, there is no looking back for me. This is exactly what I wanted to do. There's times where it's hard, but it's never been anything that I don't think I could have a job doing anything else. I could do it, just wouldn't be good at it. So, yeah, that's kinda how I got into wildlife and then ended up going to the University of Georgia where I got my undergraduate degree in wildlife sciences and then ended, after that and a couple internships.

Courtenay Conring:

I went to Texas Tech University and got a master's degree in wildlife sciences. And then pretty much I had a a quick forestry job after that and then been with Alabama Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries ever since.

Adrian Jessen:

And now tell me a little bit about what the assistant chief of all those things does.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. For sure. So for me, the way our kinda wildlife section is broken down is we have our chief who's pretty much over all all of the field staff, and then we have two assistant chiefs. There's me who supervises. I'm technically considered the assistant chief of research.

Courtenay Conring:

And so I supervise the taxa coordinators, so your deer program coordinator, the upland migratory game bird coordinators, like, your more species or Texas specific biologists. I'm gonna supervise those that have a little bit more of a statewide purview. And then I also supervise our private lands biologists, so that'll be very applicable to what we're gonna talk about today and managing. They're they're the folks out in the field who go meet with private landowners and talk to them about how to better improve their property for wildlife. And yeah.

Courtenay Conring:

So that's kinda what I do now. Prior to this, I was on wildlife management areas. So my my counterpart, Seth Maddox, he's the assistant chief of operations. He supervises all the field staff that are doing, like, public land work, so the WMA folks. And I worked on waterfowl management areas for about four years and then did upland areas for about four four and a half, five years prior to coming here in July.

Adrian Jessen:

Wow. So what, what of those are your favorite? What did you enjoy the most?

Courtenay Conring:

Oh, I don't know. That is a tough question. I love I actually do love waterfowl management. The only issue really, I love anything where I get to disturb the landscape. And so with waterfowl management, you get to put water where you want it to put it in a certain time of the year.

Courtenay Conring:

And then when doing the upland, I got to put fire on the ground during the right times of year to get the responses I wanted. So I think cumulatively, I would say that across the board, the habitat management, the rivet side of things, regardless of which position I've been in, has been my favorite. Of course, it's always fun to capture animals and put bands on them. That's that's also a highlight.

Adrian Jessen:

Do you still get to do that now?

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. Yeah. So with my role, like supervising for instance, I supervise the upland game bird coordinator. And with that, like, he has different projects going on. I supervise the migratory game bird coordinator.

Courtenay Conring:

He's banding. He's overseeing the banding project. So, now I don't get to do it as much as I used to, but I can still jump in and help when there's an extra hand needed or I get time away from the office.

Adrian Jessen:

That's cool. So you still get to like do the stuff you really Yeah. Enjoy instead of just telling everybody else what to do. Exactly. That part's probably pretty fun too.

Courtenay Conring:

You know, mean, I'm an oldest child, so it comes natural.

Adrian Jessen:

Now does, the rest of do all your siblings hunt as well?

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. So I'll say this. They have hunted. Now at this point, they'll go with me. They they don't they didn't really take to it like I did, but they're more than happy.

Courtenay Conring:

If I invite them on the hunt, they're like, yeah. Let's go. Like, you know, they're all about it. Now I have all the answers, so my dad had no choice but to make a bunch of girl hunters.

Adrian Jessen:

That's right. He he had to, embrace the girl hunting,

Courtenay Conring:

Yep. For sure.

Adrian Jessen:

That's cool. I'm sure he hated it.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. It was the worst. Yeah.

Adrian Jessen:

The worst. Yeah. So I'm sure I'm gonna probably come back to some questions that I thought of while we're talking about that, but I figured we should probably get into our topic. Okay. So you and I, when we prepped for this episode, we were trying to figure out you know, like you said, you've done waterfowl habitat management.

Adrian Jessen:

You've done upland. You've I'm sure there's deer habitat management and and all that stuff that you've done. But I figured since turkey hunting is my favorite, and that's kinda how we connected initially, that that would be a great place for us to start. Okay. Hopefully, we can always get you back and talk about the other ones as well.

Adrian Jessen:

But I guess the first easiest place to start is let's pretend like people listening have no clue what habitat management means. So just give a kind of broad spectrum picture first of what that even entails.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. I think the easiest way to do that would be to break down the two words. Habitat, you got food, water, cover. That's the the simplest version of what that means. What what is necessary for any beam to kinda survive your food and water cover?

Courtenay Conring:

And then management is just gonna be, you know, manipulating those things. And and, typically, we'll just stick to the Southeast because that's what I know. Water isn't typically a, limiting resource. It's not one of the things that you really have to do a ton of management. Turkeys.

Courtenay Conring:

We're gonna stick with that. You're not gonna talk about the duck.

Adrian Jessen:

Sorry. Just turkeys.

Courtenay Conring:

But you're not having to do as much of the water there and to, you know, they're taking in water with a lot of stuff they're eating. You know, it's just different. But so for the most part with turkeys, you have that management. You're talking about actually applying practices to the landscape to improve hopefully improve food and cover for wildlife.

Adrian Jessen:

Good deal. Okay. So let's talk about food first.

Courtenay Conring:

Okay.

Adrian Jessen:

So what what do turkeys most often feed off of? What do turkeys like to what are they looking to eat? A turkey?

Courtenay Conring:

Have you ever had chickens? No. No? Okay. Well, we've all had to at this.

Courtenay Conring:

But you ever see a chicken out in the valley, it's, I've heard somebody, it might have been Craig Harper or somebody say that a turkey will eat anything small enough to fit in its mouth and slow enough for it to catch. Some somebody once sometimes said that, and it's it rings true. But more specifically, what they're looking to eat is gonna be tailored towards what they are doing during that time of year, what their energetic demands are for that time of year. And so we'll just start with our favorite time of year, turkey season, three months. They are actively seeking mates.

Courtenay Conring:

They're putting a lot of energy into seeking mates and that reproductive process. The hens are producing eggs, looking for places to lay her eggs. Hults are being hatched, you know, and they're gonna need a lot of feather replacements of the molting processes. And so during that time of year, energetically speaking, with the feather malts going on and the egg production going on, you're looking at protein and calcium being two of the higher ranking needs during that time of year and and on into the broodering season, which is gonna be, you know, June, July, August, on so on and so forth. And so the most natural forms of calcium and protein for birds is gonna be insects and invertebrates.

Courtenay Conring:

And so during that time of year, that's probably gonna be your target. That said, they're gonna be eating all kinds of they're gonna be eating seeds. They're gonna be eating vegetation, like leaves and other parts of the plant. So it's not not to say that they're not that's not gonna make up a good part of their diet. Just proportionately speaking, protein and calcium is higher during the spring months or a higher need during the spring months and into the summer.

Courtenay Conring:

But you kinda go on into the year too, I will say. It's partly to do with what their needs are and then also what's available on the landscape. So you're gonna have certain times of the year where there's more seeds. There's gonna be times of year where there's more berries or soft mass, and then there's gonna be times of year where you've got your apron crop. So going on into the late summer, you're looking at your softer mass species.

Courtenay Conring:

So anything that's kinda got berries or fruits or, you know, fruit per se on it. Also, going into fall and winter, acorns are gonna play a huge role in that. And, again, insects just year around under that bleak litter, they're they're also there. But turkeys seem to I guess it it just depends on what's available, but a lot of the smaller acorns like your your a lot of your red oaks, I guess, probably, yeah, a good one to just throw out there as an example. That's gonna be more so for the sake of what they can swallow, going back to that concept of what's normal enough for them to eat.

Courtenay Conring:

You know? That's a good consideration of it. But, yeah, so acorns, insects, leafy parts of plants, that's what turkeys are gonna eat. That's probably more than you wanted to know. Right?

Adrian Jessen:

No. No. No. That's perfect. That's perfect.

Adrian Jessen:

Because what I'm thinking next is okay. So let's stick with just the food. We'll get to cover in a minute.

Courtenay Conring:

Okay.

Adrian Jessen:

So let's stick with just food. Yeah. So let's say you've got a you know, you're hunting let's say you've got 20 acres in the midst of, you know, some public land that's nearby for something. Mhmm. So you and you're trying to be like, okay.

Adrian Jessen:

What can I do on my 20 acres Mhmm? To try to get these turkeys to come? So in terms of food, again, there's lots of things we'll get to. But what could you do whether it's planting certain things or, like, what would be something easy and then something difficult to do to manage it so you increase food?

Courtenay Conring:

Okay. So a good way get them to look at is I'm sure a lot of your listeners are familiar with some sort of aerial imagery on the map.

Adrian Jessen:

Mhmm. Alright?

Courtenay Conring:

Alright. What I would recommend to them first and foremost is look on the map and see if everything, you know, surrounding them, couple 100 acres around them, is there open habitat there? Is or is it mostly forested? A lot of times, our public lands, you've got a lot more forested land than you have openings. And so going back to those insects, something that they need a lot of or these flower and seed producing plants and forbs, those are gonna occur in your openings.

Courtenay Conring:

And they're going to be drawn to those year round even just for visibility's sake. And so in most cases, I would be willing to say that if you only had 20 acres tucked in the middle of some public land, if you put some good openings in there and whether it be just native early successional vegetation that you go in and disc every two years and keep it open just to keep, like, the woody species out of it or every few years, a fire in there on that little block or even plant. You could you could plant in there and draw them in. That's usually a limiting factor on the landscape is gonna be an opening for and and a quality opening for a turkey, not something that's so dense to the point that they can't really freely move around.

Adrian Jessen:

Mhmm. Mhmm. And so that's where you're talking about, like, the the burns or the disking. Is any of that kind of mess that just grows up, you wanna clear that out so they actually wanna walk through it and feed through it?

Courtenay Conring:

Yep. Great. Yep. So, again, a turkey's best defense is their eyes. We all know it.

Courtenay Conring:

We've all been kicked out from a mile away when you think you're in the best camouflage in the world and got the best tree behind you, you know, and they see you from a mile away. They got good eyes, and so they need to be able to see. And, now you'll get that too. They can see well in open hardwoods then. But when you add the food in there and their ability to see and be able to freely move, that really helps out.

Courtenay Conring:

And so during the spring, you're also gonna have hens drawn to those areas just because they're they're taking in all those nutrients they need to have for the the, building the eggs or producing the eggs. And so that's gonna also attract having the hens is gonna attract the goblers. Right. You know?

Adrian Jessen:

And then you were talking about and I guess this varies state to state or region of the state to region as to is there something that's kinda standard? Like, if I wanted to plant you know, let's say I've got five acres of field and I wanna put, like, some of it in something I plant and just leave the rest as dirt for insects. Is there something that you can be like, oh, yeah. No matter where you're at, plant this, or does it matter like

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. I mean, I hate as a as a scientist, you hate to give an absolute blanket statement, but I will say, like, turkeys love crimson clover. They love wheat. You you have some of these go tos that you could do a combination plot or something like that. They're gonna they're gonna be in those plots, and they're gonna like those plots.

Courtenay Conring:

And, two, a good thing about that combination, you get those planted. They're gonna provide some greenery throughout the winter. They'll produce those, seeds during the spring and summer months. And then two, attract insects during that window that we really like Mhmm. Out of that spring window trying to draw them in there.

Courtenay Conring:

And then if you let them lay, they're gonna kinda dive in the field, and that's gonna give opportunity for some of that native stuff to pop its head up throughout, at least in the South. You have a long enough growing window that other stuff's gonna pop up amongst it throughout that time.

Adrian Jessen:

And you were talking about, some other you know, like, I know for deer in in a lot of states, we can throw out mineral, things like that. Is there anything that you can do, not to bait them, obviously, because I think that's illegal just about everywhere, but to, like, increase the quality of the egg or, like, is there anything in terms of mineral or protein or whatever that you could like, let's say you're done feeding them that you could throw out to or even in the months that aren't, like in the fall or the winter before that you can help enhance those those health features.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. You know, I don't have a good answer for that. I don't I I'm not really. I'm sure somebody somewhere has done supplemental feeding for wild turkeys like they do, like wild whites and things. I'm not familiar with that, but I've also been managing public land for the last eight years.

Courtenay Conring:

And so it's like, I I can't be doing that. I don't know. That's right. It's little different. So, yeah, I've if I if I spoke, I wouldn't be educated on the topics Alright.

Courtenay Conring:

Go that route. But

Adrian Jessen:

I just wonder. Because I know, you know, with any leg, egg laying bird, like, viability of the shell is important and so interesting.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. So random thought. Yeah. I mean, you could go in and down that road making sure, you know, if you wanna have you could probably pick plants that the leafy you know, spinach, just for us speaking, spinach has a higher, know, protein than lettuce. That's a good example.

Courtenay Conring:

Just a human example. But, like, in similar, you've got different plants that don't have higher protein counts or protein values, percentage protein on in their leaves that you could target having, whether it be a native plant or a food plot plant. So you could do that. And then, obviously, anything you can do to attract bugs in the area and then having you know, they're gonna be collecting stuff to to have grit. That's gonna be part of it too.

Courtenay Conring:

So another thing to say in that 20 acre block, we're just thinking on back on that. Anything that they need that you can keep in close proximity, if they can roost on your property and they can also feed on your property and they can get their grid on your property and they can get, you know, all that, that's less that they gotta go somewhere else if they feel safe. So just wanna play that tidbit in there. Yeah. Yeah.

Adrian Jessen:

So what would be the the things they're trying to to for the grit? What is that just like rocks?

Courtenay Conring:

Gravel. They're kinda, I think they mostly collect a lot of that passively. They're gonna collect some of that.

Adrian Jessen:

Kinda as they're feeding through them,

Courtenay Conring:

just Yeah.

Adrian Jessen:

Stuff that's in the in the ground anyway. Mhmm. Okay. I think that's all my food questions. If not, I'll come back.

Adrian Jessen:

So now let's shift to cover.

Courtenay Conring:

Okay.

Adrian Jessen:

Talk a little bit more about what those needs are.

Courtenay Conring:

Right. So luckily, in a lot of instances, once a turkey's grown, cover is pretty simple. It's anything that you can see them run into them, and you don't see them anymore. You know? But, like, as a poll is probably the more limiting factor, so we'll kinda talk on that a bit more.

Courtenay Conring:

With the poll, you know, you're looking for these luckily, it works out really well because the food plants we all talked about, it's usually gonna be a forb over a grass. Like, a higher forb component in an opening is gonna be more beneficial to a pulp recover than a grass would be. And so when I say a forb, I'm talking like a broad leaf plant. So if you ever see, like, a tomato plant or, like, a a pepper plant, that's a good just go to garden plant to look at. It goes up, and then it branches out.

Courtenay Conring:

And so you have this stalk more or less, and then you have, like, this umbrella or palm tree type effect that is really great for small birds to move freely underneath and then have that aerial overhead cover from above for many predators from above. And so that would be probably I mean, definitely across the Southeast, that's gonna be one of your most limiting factors because, truthfully, people just don't like to look at it. Places that are good cover for turkeys, a lot of times, you wanna take a bush hog to it. And so that is, in the same sense having that type of vegetation. A lot of times these spores that I'm talking about are gonna grow anywhere from, you know, a foot and a half to five feet, you know, or more at times depending on it's like an iron weed, something like that.

Courtenay Conring:

And so but it's open enough to where a hen can still freely walk through it and see throughout that she it's even good cover for her. You know? It works out well for her. So I would say that would be good cover for them. And then it's usually I guess, like, with a brood, you would want more freshly disturbed areas.

Courtenay Conring:

And then, like, nesting cover, you want thicker areas. So think about if you've ever seen an area that was burned maybe three years ago, that would be more of what you'd be looking for for a hen to ideal nesting habitat for a hen. A little bit denser just so that she because she's gonna do a lot of sitting and staying. So having that thicker cover around her at that ground level is a bit more important. But if you have that nesting habitat close to that brood rearing habitat, and that brood rearing habitat's gonna be something that, in a lot of cases has been burned within the last year.

Courtenay Conring:

So very, very open still in the understory. Hadn't had a ton of time for a lot of vegetation to grow in that that small first few inches of the ground. That is when it becomes awesome for pulp production. Does that kinda answer your question?

Adrian Jessen:

Yes. It does. It's great information. Yes. And have

Courtenay Conring:

put a light on that.

Adrian Jessen:

No. I love it. I love it. This is perfect. I do have so I have some follow-up questions, but I feel like they're they're, intense.

Adrian Jessen:

So before we get into that, I want to take a quick little break. Okay. We're gonna hear from our sponsors. So stick with us. Come back.

Adrian Jessen:

You're gonna learn a lot more. Alright, guys. Welcome back. We left off discussing cover for hens while they're nesting, the nests, and then the poults. I know, obviously, there are you talked about aerial predators, so you have hawks and eagles and all that stuff.

Adrian Jessen:

And then you also have, nest predators. So what is there is there anything you can do in terms of cover for that for nest predators?

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. So, really, this is not everybody's favorite answer because they it's it's a little more difficult, and it's not, like, immediately gratifying at times. But, I mean, prescribed fire is truly this I mean, that's getting that landscape to where you have that vegetation structure in a way to where it's more difficult for scent travel. It's more difficult for them to see into. You know, because a lot of our predators are they're they're gonna be using their sense of smell.

Courtenay Conring:

So you have stronger, you know, barrier between them and the animals for that and then also just having it to where they can't see movement. Like, they can't if they can only see 10 feet into a little early successional open in the native vegetation and the hen is as good as in there and they can't smell her, then that's pretty dang good cover. You know? And so that's, I would say, getting prescribed fire on the landscape or any type of disturbance that's gonna get you back to that early successional vegetation. I probably should have defined that for everybody given they may not know what I'm talking about.

Courtenay Conring:

So early successional vegetation is going to be plants that, like, if you took a if you took forest and you cut the trees down and everything just started over, essentially, Those first plants that start to come up, your grasses and then forbs and then your saplings that you're talking, like, in those first few years, usually in the Deep South, in the first one to three years is that window is kinda your early successional vegetation. Very rich in seeds, very rich in crass and forbs, so very rich in insects and vertebrates as well. And it's always gonna be, like, a result of disturbance. And when I'm saying disturbance, I'm meaning either it could be a timber thinning that's allowing more sunlight to hit the ground. It could be a burn that is also getting rid of a lot of the the vegetation that might be preventing sunlight from germinating seeds that are in the seed bank.

Courtenay Conring:

Water can be used as a disturbance, disking, herbicide application. Anything that kinda resets that vegetative vegetation stage of growth is going to be what I'm referring to with disturbance. So is that kinda I'm Oh, yeah. I kinda got off topic a little bit. No.

Courtenay Conring:

No. No. I gotta You're good. Back up as I'm talking about some of these things. I'm like, the Soviets may not know this stuff.

Courtenay Conring:

No.

Adrian Jessen:

That was good. Yeah. Like, I was kinda making assumptions about what that meant, but that makes yeah. That's perfect. That makes good sense.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. You have a power line right away. That's usually early successional. That's a good go to for a lot of people. So

Adrian Jessen:

if we're doing a prescribed fire so let's say that we're like, okay. Cool. We got too much, you know, too much of that, undergrowth, too much junk. It's just thick. You can't get through it.

Adrian Jessen:

When in terms of the time of year are those usually best? And I I'm assuming it matters on the maybe it doesn't. Does it matter on the species you're trying to to focus on or is it the same time? Oh, okay. Alright.

Adrian Jessen:

Go for it.

Courtenay Conring:

Oh, yeah. Fire is a beautiful complex thing. Lots of lots of stuff goes into it. So you're in most cases, when we're applying prescribed fire, we are in the Southeast trying to get rid of woody encroachment. So what has happened is some big disturbance has occurred, and then it's gone too long without another one for it to be really beneficial for turkeys.

Courtenay Conring:

And so in doing so, you've got a bunch of your tulip poplar, your sweet your maples, your red maples, your sweetgown. Those type of trees are growing up in these areas. And one of the best times to kill those is going to be burning in the fall. So that August to October window. Those plants are already getting a little bit more stressed then because a lot of times we're kinda getting towards a drought.

Courtenay Conring:

It's a drier time of year, and so that's gonna help kill those off better. And so we usually on night areas, a lot of the places where we were burning, we were trying to reclaim places that had gone too long without fire because, you know, just manpower, different issues can cause you to not be able to get fire on the landscape throughout Virginia. And so we were applying fire in places that had gone six, seven years of that. So our purpose was to kill trees in doing so. And we're talking about trees that are anywhere from two feet tall to eight or so feet tall.

Courtenay Conring:

And so, yeah, time of fire absolutely matters of what you're trying to achieve. And so what'll happen too in killing those trees, a lot of those forbs that were in there that we like so much have just dropped seed during that time of the year just before that. So it's like perfect it makes perfect conditions for those seeds to do what they need to do and come back. So usually you see a really good forb to serve after you do that fall burning. So, yeah, I would in mow in a lot of the places in Southeast where we're limited on brood rearing cover and nesting cover, that's a good a good time of year to set the set it back.

Adrian Jessen:

So especially with the part of the department you're with now Mhmm. Is that something somebody would call your your department and be like, hey. We would like to do a prescribed fire, or is that something you have to contract out to do?

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. So we do not offer prescribed fire. Like, we we do not our our department doesn't, like, come out and, like, do fire on the property or implement it on the property. That said, we have private lands biologists who will come out and meet with you, and they will tell you based on your goals and your needs and what your, like, budget and all the limiting factors for you are when the best time to burn is and help you put together a plan. So they'll help you put together a management plan.

Courtenay Conring:

And then we also so the forestry commission, our state forestry commission, they will come out and burn. And they have like a set dollar figure for, installing fire breaks and then also to implement the burn. And then, of course, there are private land contractors in a lot of Southeastern states who now you can just call them up to private company. They're usually they they should be certified, and they should be insured, and they'll come up to your property, and they'll do the fire turnkey for you. So it's there's a variety of different options there.

Adrian Jessen:

That's, and that's cool to know. As of doing this podcast has been very it's really neat to for me to learn all the options that are out there because, you know, you you know, various YouTube channels or publications, different organizations are like, oh, you should do a fire. They're great. And you're like, cool. I'm glad other people can do that.

Adrian Jessen:

But you don't really know that it's there there are steps that you as a private landowner owner could take to contact and get the biologist to come out and be like, oh, yeah. This would be great. Or no. You don't really need it. Or yeah, I would do it here, but not here.

Adrian Jessen:

And then there are also ways to get that accomplished where you don't just start fires and

Courtenay Conring:

hope it goes well. I yeah. For sure. And I agree with people heartedly. Like, I think as a as a outdoor industry, like, I I I don't know if it's just industry or agencies or what, but we all could do a lot better job of doing I think for the longest time, we were fighting that, like, Smokey the Bear mentality of fire and fad.

Courtenay Conring:

And so now we've got everybody on board with fire is doing it, but they're like, okay. What's next? How how do I put fire on my property? And how do I you know, when do I need to burn? And then this, that, and other.

Courtenay Conring:

And it's it's a pretty it's a unique tool, and it's awesome because it's really diverse, different times a year, the way you light the fire, the different conditions, like, all these different things play into the vegetation response you're gonna get back. And, it's an awesome sign. It's the kind of learning and and get a trade in, but it's complicated for somebody to just tackle as a private landowner and Yeah. Intimidating at times. And so, yeah, we've y'all gotta do a better job of saying, hey, these are the services out there and this is how you should go about using them.

Adrian Jessen:

Yeah. I would assume the easiest place to start for that would be your state's, Department of Natural Resources?

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. I I don't know a state agency that doesn't have either a private lands biologist group or they may call it technical assistance. That's another term that can be used and thrown around. But, yeah, I would say and even the the feds of US Fish and Wildlife Service, they they have them as well. They have private lands biologists.

Courtenay Conring:

So there's a variety of different Auburn Extension services has them. So most, land grant universities throughout the Southeast, so if it's a school that is kinda tailored more towards your ag sciences and outdoor sciences Mhmm. A lot of times, they're gonna have professors there that are are meant to provide technical assistance to the the the state. And so there's options. But, yeah, I always recommend going to your state agencies.

Courtenay Conring:

A lot of these folks like ours, for example, have spent time on the management areas, applying this stuff, hands on. So, like, they're super well versed, and and I I would I'd let any one of them own my property.

Adrian Jessen:

Sweet. And that's cool too. I hadn't thought about the universities. Yep. Because I wonder too, if you let's say, like, NC State or Auburn, I'm sure their grad students or even undergrad students are probably having some sort of, projects or things that they have to work through.

Adrian Jessen:

Mhmm. So I wonder if that's even having your property as a project may be an option for for them.

Courtenay Conring:

They're steadily projects getting funded that they're looking for private lands because, like, so much research is done on public land because it's kind of more accessible from university to state, like having comp having these conversations. Sometimes seeking out a a willing landowner, you know, that's a little bit tougher. And so by all means, if that's something that you might be interested, like, you can talk to those university folks, and they may have something in the pipe that would be that would work well for both of you.

Adrian Jessen:

That's awesome. So yeah. So definitely, check your state DNR and even the federal US Fish and Wildlife and then maybe they can point you out or I guess, I mean, you could also search the universities and Yeah. And seek seek those departments and I guess it would be under like the major maybe of like wildlife sciences or something like that.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. Yeah. Usually, they'll they'll be titled I think most of them are considered, like, cooperative extension super I mean, I was gonna say supervisors, professors, extension professors. Those will be usually the ones that are doing the outreach. Awesome.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. There's a lot of resources out there for folks to to get involved.

Adrian Jessen:

It's good to know they're definitely, like you said, very, well experienced.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah.

Adrian Jessen:

People that know what they're doing, they could come in and help you get started. So that's that's pretty huge.

Courtenay Conring:

And that one on one time is is big because you have you go even if you go to a workshop or a class, you know, you may only be there half a day. There's a lot of lot of stuff to cover in half a day's time. And so getting those folks out to your property and spending time with them one on one, your specific needs, I can't recommend it enough.

Adrian Jessen:

Yeah. Sweet. Good deal. So that's huge. Thank you.

Adrian Jessen:

That's probably a piece of information that I would not have thought of, so that's really cool. So thank you for that. So let's talk more about well, let's back up before I ask this question. So habitat management. Let's say we've talked about our 20 acres.

Adrian Jessen:

So the first thing you would do is look at an aerial map. What do you what does everybody else have that maybe you or what does everybody else not have that you could create on your property?

Courtenay Conring:

Mhmm.

Adrian Jessen:

Open spots is probably a really good place to start. So clearing out some space where they can feed, clearing that out, disking it up or whatever, getting it feed in there. So whether that's like a clover or something that's gonna provide food for them throughout the year. Mhmm. Keep them on the property.

Courtenay Conring:

Mhmm.

Adrian Jessen:

Then potentially look for, is there anything else? Like, we need to do a burn or anything in the wooded part? Maybe thin some trees to create better lots so there's more more of the good stuff growing less of the stuff you don't want growing.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. For sure.

Adrian Jessen:

Is there what else? So we we're still in our 20 acre property. Let's say it has has some some woods, and now we've cleared it out and we have the open spot. What else do we need to do?

Courtenay Conring:

Alright. So you've got an open spot in there. I would say, you know, probably having making sure your hardwoods are taken really good care of. I I wouldn't be doing anything per se that would be real detrimental to your hardwoods. And, like, most people aren't.

Courtenay Conring:

They're gonna do stuff to take care of them, but you just never know what boats are doing out there. So probably not super you know how I was talking to you about killing hardwood during those saplings during the fall. You know, if you've got your closed canopy hardwoods or your acorn producers and you're in somewhat of a drought, you might not probably don't wanna burn a fire hot fire through there in October. Like, that's gonna be that's gonna be rough on the even the big trees. You don't wanna do things like that.

Courtenay Conring:

But, yeah, absolutely. You could put fire in there and do some bit probably some good in most places. And but I will say you brought up a good point with the the light to the ground and and doing the timber harvest. If you do not have sunlight coming through those trees, like, if it's that closed canopy, then you're just gonna mostly have acorns for turkeys in there and and whatever bugs might be under the leaf litter. You're not gonna have any of the real, real good stuff.

Courtenay Conring:

And so just like we need a lot more of those openings throughout the South, we could probably sand Timber Thing and throughout a good chunk of it as well. And it's gonna be it's gonna be kinda filling that same niche of those openings, but it's kinda like you can't ever have enough of that. So, yeah, timber thinning may be an option there. Just depending on what's also around it, you know, you may not wanna thin too many trees if everything around you actually wasn't opening. So you know, you have to figure what's around.

Courtenay Conring:

You gotta have roost trees. You know, turkey likes to. Yeah. Like, you gotta have them tall trees with those lateral limbs. So that's another thing to consider.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. I think that right off hand would be kind of my neck my next step. The low hanging fruit is is pushing out an opening, and then after that, a timber sale. And sometimes a timber sale on something as small as 20 acres could be a tough sale to a logger. But if you can that's when chiming in with your neighbors, figure out when they're having sales, you know, when the breweries are gonna be in the area.

Courtenay Conring:

A lot of people don't like to work with their neighbors, especially when it comes to turkeys, but it will benefit them, you know, get over it.

Adrian Jessen:

That's right. That's right. So now, this is not necessarily management habitat wise, but it could be. Yeah. Talk a little bit about more of predator management for turkeys.

Adrian Jessen:

Is there a way that connects to the the habitat, or is that just taking care of predators?

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. I would say that, you know, that's a touchy topic. People don't like it, and people live in these camps, live and die in the predator camp and the habitat camp, and you see all the yang yang on social media. But it's a I mean, truth of it is is if you've got quality enough habitat, you can really minimize the impact that predators gonna have on your place. So having that good cover for them and also, you know, having that good food to have them in their best body condition, making them as vigilant as possible to where something comes after them, they're ready to rock, you know?

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. Having them in that good body condition. So I'll go with that. That's not to say that if you know I'll probably get scrutinized for this a little bit, but I'll just go out on a limb and say it that if you have a bunch of time and a bunch of traps and you have the option to get out there and do a lot of heavy trapping right when you know that hens are gonna be on the ground, you know, your April through early June or April through mid June. If you're willing to heavily run traps on your property during that window, by all means.

Courtenay Conring:

You know?

Adrian Jessen:

It can't hurt.

Courtenay Conring:

Legal as long as it's legal. But Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Courtenay Conring:

By all means. Because, you know, it's just a matter of if you got if you got a ton of them and you're doing your habitat part, you're you're gonna you're gonna probably do a little bit of knockout. That's not to say that you're not gonna come back two weeks and everything you trapped will be moved back in there.

Adrian Jessen:

But

Courtenay Conring:

you take them out during that window when they're most vulnerable.

Adrian Jessen:

You you give them a few extra weeks, maybe.

Courtenay Conring:

It's not gonna hurt anything.

Adrian Jessen:

Yeah.

Courtenay Conring:

And if you're willing to do it and it's gonna make you feel good and it's legal.

Adrian Jessen:

Yeah. I assume Yeah. If you've done the work and you've built this, like, fantastic habitat for turkeys, which is probably also fantastic habitat for raccoons and possums. And I'm sure that, you know, when you're providing food and cover and all that, the other animals are gonna be like, oh, this is where I wanna be too.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. Well, you know, when you have really good habitat, you're gonna have a diversity of species using anything. And that also means there's gonna be a lot of other potential things that those animals can eat that are not turkeys.

Adrian Jessen:

You know? So that's good. Yeah.

Courtenay Conring:

That's a thing to consider.

Adrian Jessen:

I know we've talked about men like, making it so the ones that are there can thrive. Mhmm. And have do you guys also deal with, like, tag numbers and or, you know, the like, managing the number of turkeys that can be taken and that sort of thing?

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah.

Adrian Jessen:

Or is that a different office?

Courtenay Conring:

That's our division. Yeah. Or our our Yeah.

Adrian Jessen:

So then as a as a landowner, which obviously you can't control what anybody else does, but is there, like, a number where you're like, oh, I well, we've seen x number of toms and x number of hens on our property, so we probably shouldn't take but this many this year. Like, is there some sort of benchmark that we can look at and be like, oh, I probably shouldn't get more than one off of it or, well, probably I'll leave it alone this year.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. I get what you're saying. And, unfortunately, I don't have a I don't have a good answer for that. That's a that's a tough question, and it's hard to say not knowing so many other factors that are gonna play into that. Just if it were me and I had a property and it was managed great for turkeys and, you know, I had 10 on it, just for me personally, I wanna still hear some in the coming years.

Courtenay Conring:

I probably wouldn't take but a couple, you know, two two or three out of that. But I get a whole lot of value out of those turkeys being there and knowing those turkeys are gonna go forth and multiply. I've also killed turkeys in my lifetime, so it's not like I'm I've gotta kill every one of them to feel like I need to beat my chest over it. You know?

Adrian Jessen:

Right.

Courtenay Conring:

Right. So, like, for me, there's a lot of intrinsic value of them being there. That's just my personal opinion, though. That's not like a biological this is what you need to be able to go forward and still have a growing population or anything. That's just me.

Courtenay Conring:

If I I'm just saying if I had a place and I knew there were that many birds, I might would take two or three of them off of it and leave it alone.

Adrian Jessen:

And if, I'm mainly asking this question. There's a a place that we deer hunt. We don't turkey hunt it. But once upon a time, there were lots of turkeys. And then for a few years, it was like nobody heard any turkeys.

Adrian Jessen:

And then steadily, we're seeing more and more, but it's still not being turkey hunted on purpose because they mainly because they there was such a long time where there weren't any.

Courtenay Conring:

Mhmm. So I

Adrian Jessen:

was just thinking, like, what I wonder what the point is where you you feel like, okay. Good. Like, we've got a pretty decent population. We can take one or two now and not not feel like we're hindering what may be in the future.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. There there's probably somebody out there that's got a better answer than I had, but I'm I'm with you. That's I would say that it's always better on my end to play the conservative side if if it's something that I value seeing on my place.

Adrian Jessen:

Yeah, that makes sense. One more thing that you talked about earlier that I think is super interesting, and I want to know more about how it's decided is when you guys release turkeys.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah.

Adrian Jessen:

So talk about that. Like, how is it decided? Where do they come from? All that good stuff.

Courtenay Conring:

Okay. So this actually so Alabama started restocking turkeys in the nineteen forties. And so turkey numbers had gotten really low across the South, and so a lot of the efforts came out of the Fred T. Simpson area down in Southeast Alabama I mean, Southwest Alabama, Clark County. And then the Upper Upper State area as well is a is a I think it well, it used to be a sanctuary is what they call it on, but that those are the general areas.

Courtenay Conring:

It's it's in the Southwestern part of the state where they still had some strongholds, and that's where a lot of our restocking birds came from. And so after from the nineteen forties until I wanna say the last ones were in the early two thousands, like around 02/2007 when it was when we last released birds. From that window, I think 1,900 birds roughly were released in from from that spot and then in 46 counties. And so that's really what spearheaded the conservation recovery of wild turkeys in this state. And so what went into that was, you know, you you didn't do it willy nilly.

Courtenay Conring:

You got a prized possession here. You don't have to just go take a turkey. There's a reason there weren't turkeys in these other places, and a lot of it was over hunting and and and not hunting, but, like, the market hunting, you know, recovering from that This history of unregulated hunting, I guess. Mhmm. But, too, there was some habitat that wasn't ideal, and you don't wanna take wouldn't be great to take a turkey and release it in a parking lot.

Courtenay Conring:

You know? Yeah. So there's a habitat component that goes into that you're evaluating the property, see is the habitat quality suitable for turkeys? Is the are the numbers in that area low enough to warrant bringing in birds? Because you always gotta worry about even disease transmission.

Courtenay Conring:

Even if the even if the wild bird from one spot to another spot, you've always gotta take that into consideration. Is it a place that you think if you wait in a couple years, birds from the surrounding area have a high enough population that have to have good enough, it's gonna come on its own. Always better to let mother nature kinda handle this on it before we get involved. But, yeah, it was a it was, you know, a remarkable effort. We get to hunt birds now because of it.

Courtenay Conring:

But it's not something that like, now if somebody called us, it we would evaluate it if they wanted to release birds. You know, we're we're basically gonna evaluate it, but there's just very few places in Alabama. I can't think of one off top of my head that I'd be like, oh, man. You know? Like, we just got no birds around here when this habitat's great, and I can't believe it.

Courtenay Conring:

You know? Like, it's not it's not what it was, you know, thirty years ago, or even further back.

Adrian Jessen:

So would you say I know, lots of you've read a lot of people say, you know, we're we have way less turkeys than we used to have. There's a lot fewer numbers. Is and I know there's a lot of factors, and there's a lot of debate about those factors. But does habitat seem to be the biggest limiting factor?

Courtenay Conring:

For sure. Again, it goes back to your hen survival. You need hens to raise babies. You need the babies to survive. You only need a handful of males to make that happen.

Courtenay Conring:

So when you get down to it, that hen survival and pulp production is key. And there is a window of time from where a hen is incubating a nest to the time that her poult can actually fly, that you're looking at thirty days of incubation roughly and then another anywhere from ten to fourteen days before they can fly that they're kinda in an area. They're kinda stuck. They're not very mobile. And so, again, it goes back to the habitat management.

Courtenay Conring:

I hate that that's like the always go to answer, but I mean, it's just the truth of it.

Adrian Jessen:

Yeah.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. You know? Like, it it it seems like a daunting task. It makes people sometimes feel like, ugh, it's gonna be so hard to to make to move the needle. But, I think it can be done with targeted habitat management improvement across the state and at the state level, not just on your public lands, but on the private land.

Adrian Jessen:

Mhmm. Yeah. That's great. So this has been, super educational for me. Hopefully, you guys have learned a ton.

Adrian Jessen:

And, hopefully like, I think the thing it makes me think about are people who still own, you know, even 20 acres, a 100 acres. They, you know, have inherited somebody's 100 acre farm or whatever. It's like, get call to your state's DNR. Get somebody out there. Even if you don't turkey hunt, like, you are a conservationist and you care about wildlife, figure out what can be done to help improve those populations, the deer populations, the whatever else it is in your state that is still, you know, running wild out there, doves, you know, whatever.

Adrian Jessen:

Like so do something other than just leave your property alone. You know, like, it just it hopefully, it's encouraging to you guys out there listening to to at least contact the agency to see, hey. What can we do here to make this better for all wildlife? And then try to do that and help grow those numbers in general.

Courtenay Conring:

Yeah. And a lot of the things I said today are not just benefiting turkeys. They're benefiting the ecosystem. Mhmm. And so you're right on with saying whatever fuels you, whatever whether it be songbirds or whatever else it might be, like, call your state agency because whatever they're going to them or, you know, whoever you decide you trust best to with with that wildlife consultation information, call those folks and get that assistance because whatever these folks are gonna tell you, they're worth their salt.

Courtenay Conring:

It's gonna be better than doing nothing.

Adrian Jessen:

Yeah. Right. Well, awesome. Yeah. I think I think that's enough.

Adrian Jessen:

Enough of my questions for now. I feel like that's that's a good amount of information for me to take it and try to process where to head next. Yeah. And hopefully you guys it's been for you too. So Courtney, I really appreciate your time.

Adrian Jessen:

Thank you for being here. Thank you for all of your expertise and knowledge and, being willing to share it with us all. Is there a way that you people could maybe follow you, get in touch with you, or contact you, or is it just that they mainly need to check out their own, state's department?

Courtenay Conring:

Oh, yeah. If people wanna reach out to me, that's perfectly fine. I've as you know, my name is very weird and long, so I'll but I will tell you what my email address is. So if folks wanna reach out to me, it's gonna be courtney.conring@dcnr.alabama.gov. My name is c o u r t e n a y, and then dot comerig is c o n r I n g.

Courtenay Conring:

So that would be the easiest way to reach out to me. If I can even if I can help you with improving your property, I'd be happy to. But if I'm not your local person, I can put you in contact with people. I I know people across the Southeast doing this type of stuff.

Adrian Jessen:

Do keep in mind that, I know computers that I have like to spell correct your name. So if you type in the email, just make sure it actually spells it the right way, not the way your computer wants you to spell it. Yeah.

Courtenay Conring:

There you go. Yeah.

Adrian Jessen:

Well, awesome. Thank you, Courtney. Thank you again. Guys, if you're out there thinking about making some improvements for your property, now is the time to start looking at it. What can you do for this year, for next year?

Adrian Jessen:

Make sure you're you're getting a plan in place. We appreciate you guys watching the ASCEND podcast. Make sure you like this episode. If you're listening on your podcast platforms, like it, download it, all those good things. On YouTube, comment below if you have any questions, and we'll see if we can get those answered.

Adrian Jessen:

Also, just let us know what you think. I've said this every time, but ASCEND is really just a a whole community of women and people who love women who want us to get outside to enjoy the outdoors and become part of what helping all of this grow. So make sure you you become part of that community by commenting, sharing it with your friends, all that good stuff. Also, head over to social media. We are on Instagram and, Facebook, I'm pretty sure under ASCEND by Ducks Unlimited or DUSN, so make sure you follow us there.

Adrian Jessen:

As always, we appreciate your time as well. I'm Adrian, encouraging you to follow your story wherever it takes you.

VO:

Thank you for listening to the ASCEND podcast. New every week, the conservation driven podcast one week, and our adventure video series the next. Watch the ASCEND adventure episodes on the Ducks Unlimited YouTube channel, and be sure to like, share, and subscribe. Opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect those of Ducks Unlimited. Until next time, follow your outdoor story wherever it leads you. ASCEND. Don't forget to rate and review the ASCEND podcast. It's the best way to grow the podcast and help other women discover the next step on their outdoors journey.