Discovering the Hero's Journey to Wholeness with Ben Katt

Ben is the author of the phenomenal new book: The Way Home: Discovering the Hero's Journey to Wholeness at Midlife. I was really excited to talk to Ben because the hero’s journey has been a framework that I still use myself as a way of orienting and meaning making. Ben shares how his own life has been a series of spiraling journeys, embodying the hero’s path.

In this conversation, you can expect to learn:
 
📚  Challenges of refusing the call to adventure
🤷‍♂️  The transition between evasion and embracing the unknown.
🧘  The work of Bill Plotkin, and how it's influenced his life
👣  Exploring the significance of wandering as a means of revelation
🎁  A powerful concept of giving your gift in a generative way

Official Links

📚  Ben Katt's Book — The Way Home: Discovering the Hero's Journey to Wholeness at Midlife
👋  Follow Ben on Instagram

Connect + Follow Jonny:

🐦  Follow on Twitter/X @jonnym1ller
💌  Subscribe to the Curious Humans Newsletter
🫁  Learn more about Nervous System Mastery
🙋‍♂️  Join Five to Thrive — a zero-cost educational email series.
📝  Take the Nervous System Quotient (NSQ) Self-Assessment (totally free)


🫁 Episode Sponsor — Nervous System Mastery
 
This is my flagship 5-week bootcamp designed to equip you with evidence-backed protocols to cultivate calm and emotional regulation. Our sixth cohort will run in October 2024 ~ and applications are currently open. My sense is that if this conversation resonates with you, then you'd likely be a great fit for our upcoming cohort. This curriculum represents my attempt to distill everything I've learned in recent years about creating the conditions for our nervous system's flourishing.  It's run in an intensive cohort-based way since this is, in my experience, the most efficient way to embody and practice the protocols.

Previous students have shared how partaking improved their sleep and quality of relationships and tapped into deeper states of joy, clarity, and confidence in their lives. We've had over 1000 students have completed this training, and many have said that it has been the most impactful thing they've ever done for their personal growth — so if you're intrigued at all, you can find more details and apply to join this year's cohort over at nsmastery.com


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Creators & Guests

Host

Jonny Miller

Curious Human

Editor

Rob Johnson

What is Curious Humans with Jonny Miller?

Deep dive conversations that celebrate self-experimentation and ask what it means to cultivate embodied wisdom.

Speaker A [00:00:01]:
But it's curiosity as to where we.

Speaker B [00:00:03]:
Are, what we are, that existence, the physical universe, is basically playful.

Speaker A [00:00:09]:
Welcome to the Curious Humans podcast. I'm your host, Johnny Miller. Hello curious humans. In this episode, I'm speaking with Ben Catt. Ben is the author of the phenomenal new book the Way Home, discovering the hero's journey to wholeness at midlife. I was really excited to talk to Ben because the heros journey has been a framework that I still use myself as a way of orienting and meaning making. Ben shares how his own life has been, this series of spiralling journeys that really embody the heros path. We discuss the inception of his book, the challenges of refusing the call to adventure, and the transition between evasion versus embracing the unknown.

Speaker A [00:00:51]:
We also explore the impact of meditation, the work of Bill Plotkin, and the significance of wandering as a means of revelation. This is a cracking conversation and contains ideas that I'm personally passionate about seeing. Enter more mainstream dialogues. So thank you for taking the time to listen and I hope you really enjoy this conversation with Mister Ben.

Speaker B [00:01:11]:
Kat.

Speaker A [00:01:14]:
This episode is brought to you by the one and only nervous system mastery. This is my flagship five week course designed to equip you with evidence backed protocols to cultivate calm, rewire reactivity, and build emotional regulation in 45 days. Our 6th cohort will be kicking off on October 7, and we're currently accepting new students. My sense is that if the conversations in this podcast resonate with you, then you'd likely be a really good fit for this upcoming training. The nervous system mastery curriculum represents my attempt to distill everything that I've learned in recent years about how to create the conditions for our nervous system flourishing. It's run in an intensive, cohort based way, since in my experience, this is the most efficient way to not only learn the information, but also to embody the protocols into your everyday life. Previous students have shared how partaking not only improve their sleep and quality of relationships, but also tap into deeper states of joy, clarity, and confidence in their lives.

Speaker B [00:02:20]:
I wish I would have found this 20 years ago. Almost like the small moments matter most, I actually lean into it now with curiosity.

Speaker A [00:02:28]:
Holy shit, did I just say that? And the more you practice, the better you get.

Speaker B [00:02:33]:
The key for me is emotional fluidity, which I think really buys you more life. Interoception has been so helpful, I didn't.

Speaker A [00:02:41]:
Even realize all of the tightness internally.

Speaker B [00:02:44]:
That I had before.

Speaker A [00:02:45]:
At this point, we've had over a thousand students complete nervous system mastery. Many have said that it's been the most impactful thing they've ever done for their personal growth. So if you're intrigued at all, you can find out more details and join our next cohort [e-mail]. that's nsmastery.com. welcome to the Curious Humans podcast, Ben.

Speaker B [00:03:07]:
Jonny, thanks so much for having me.

Speaker A [00:03:09]:
How are you feeling in this moment? In three words.

Speaker B [00:03:15]:
Present grateful and eager.

Speaker A [00:03:23]:
Nice. So the question I love to start these conversations with is, do you consider yourself to have been an exceptionally curious child? And if so, can you remember a story about something you were curious about?

Speaker B [00:03:38]:
Yeah, I mean, I would say that curiosity has been a thread in my, you know, throughout my entire life. The thing that comes to mind for me is my parents always commented on how wherever we were, like, we're out to dinner somewhere, or, you know, if we're sitting down somewhere, I would always have to go to the bathroom. I really wasn't going to the bathroom. It was just the sense I needed to get away and just kind of explore and check things out. So the same thing happened at school. I love learning in school, but I'd get sort of restless. I'd be like, I want to go see what else is going on. So I think of that it was less of I'm curious about a specific thing and I'm going to go explore it and more of a, I want to open myself up to whatever else is out there.

Speaker A [00:04:29]:
Yeah, I love that. Well, I've just kind of been making my way through your book here that arrived very beautiful, beautiful cover. It also aligns with the background here. So looks great on design, on brand. And what I love about it is it's almost, it feels like this embodied exploration of the hero's journey, which is something that I really resonate with in my life as well. I sometimes think of my life as like a continued unfolding or spiraling of heroes journeys, where you end one and then the next one comes and it's just this Spiral, hopefully upwards or in some direction. But for listeners who might not be familiar, could you briefly outline what the hero's journey is? And what was it about this framework that really resonated with you, and how has it been helpful as a narrative map for understanding your own experience? Maybe at the time or maybe retrospectively?

Speaker B [00:05:25]:
Yeah. Okay, great. Well, the heros journey is a term coined by Joseph Campbell, who became a famous mythologist. He was really active in the mid 20th century and later, especially early eighties. His work went on to influence all sorts of filmmakers like George Lucas being one in terms of how he wrote Star wars, the hero's journey, as described by Joseph Campbell, especially in his book the Hero with a thousand faces, is this pattern that when you look across, he looked across myths and religious stories and folk tales, fairy tales, all these things, and he saw in them a common pattern. And he said that this storyline essentially runs through all of our lives. There's a reason it shows up again and again, and it has three main movements, according to Campbell. And he called it departure, initiation, and return.

Speaker B [00:06:22]:
And within those three phases, he had something like 17 steps. Okay. And they're lovely. I encourage you to go check it out. Now. I interact with his work. The reason I interact with it is because after I went through a five, six year, grueling season of my life, soul searching season, I was studying Campbell's stuff, and I was just sort of shocked. I realized this is exactly what I just went through.

Speaker B [00:06:51]:
And so I started to map out my own experience and realize it totally overlapped with what he's talking about. And so in my book, which a big part of it is, I wrote this because I wanted to write the kind of book I wish I had when I began to this season of my life. And I wanted to make stuff like Campbell's wisdom and the wisdom from these different spiritual and religious traditions and other myths. I wanted to help make that accessible and relatable to people. And so I, in my book, I have three phases as well. They line up with his. I just talk about him in a little different Way. So it's leaving the familiar, falling into the unknown, and rising to wholeness.

Speaker B [00:07:28]:
And then I have ten steps, and I'll just note that the 10th very much is in line with what you just talked about, this idea of spiraling, continued seasons of growth. And my 10th chapter is called begin Again. It's this idea that, yes, we do arrive somewhere, but the moment we arrive, there's another opportunity for growth. I'll pause there because you were asked a few questions, but I don't want to get too long winded. So if that's a helpful start, if there's anything on that you want to ask.

Speaker A [00:07:54]:
Yeah, no, that's great. Where do you feel like? A question I sometimes love to ask people is whereabouts in the hero's journey? Do you see yourself now? Like, at what phase?

Speaker B [00:08:05]:
Yeah, I would say I'm probably in multiple phases. I think personally, at a heart level, I would feel very much like I'm in a thriving season. Saying those words. I said, present grateful. At the beginning, when you ask me, I think that speaks to the fact that I feel very content and feel like I've been through something. I've done a lot of inner work, and I feel more whole, and there's a whole way that I'm relating to life. Meditation and other practices are a huge aspect of this. You know this well as someone who helps people stabilize their nervous systems.

Speaker B [00:08:46]:
But there's a whole way of relating to the world and to life that's profoundly different than, say, when I began the journey that I talk about in the book, which is about ten years ago now, that really began in a season of burnout, where I realized I was really disconnected from myself. In that sense, I feel like I'm in this season of wholeness and grateful for it and very aware when perhaps shifts start taking place, when I feel more in tune with when it's time to leave something or start something new. So there's that now. That last piece, in terms of other word I shared with you, was eager, and that comes to mind. I feel like there is a part of me that's in this. I'm very much falling into the unknown. How is that? Well, I'm about six weeks from this book being released into the world. I'm eager to have it out there, see how it impacts people.

Speaker B [00:09:41]:
I'm excited about the conversations that might come with it. I'm entering into a year where the book will have some say, I imagine, in terms of what are some of the things I give my time and energy to. There's a lot of unknown, though. I feel like I'm even able to be present in that in a different way than previously.

Speaker A [00:10:03]:
Beautiful. Well, going to what you mentioned about it sounds like burnout was, in some ways, part of the inception of this journey. And I think one of the chapters was a million ways to lose your heart, which is a beautiful phrase. And I'm curious, how did you lose yours? And what were some of the early signs versus, like, when did it really hit you that this was going on? Because I imagine, you know, a lot of people could probably relate to that phase. Yeah.

Speaker B [00:10:32]:
So I'll start with when it hit me. One morning, I used to live in Seattle. I was out for a run in the rain, as is common there, and I ran around this little lake, and then I charge up this hill, and usually I get to the top and then take a turn and, like, you know, hustle, like, the last ten blocks to my house. You know, just this, like, really invigorating, intense workout. And this one particular day, I got to the top of the hill and I just, it's like I just stopped dead in my tracks and I, these words welled up inside me, and the words were, if you don't have your heart, you have nothing. If you don't have your heart, you have nothing. And it was like, in that moment, I knew this wasn't about my heart rate. This was about like, how I had been approaching my life.

Speaker B [00:11:20]:
I ended up walking home that day. I crawled into bed sweaty and soaked by the rain, and I wanted to just crawl into a hole and not go anywhere. But later that day, I had a meeting with a mentor. His help was crucial, but it just helped me see that as soon as I had heard those words and he helped me make sense of this, too, I realized that I needed to change the way that I was moving through the world. And that's where it was like, yeah, I'm burned out. He helped me see that. That began a season of unpacking that now. So I start there with that moment.

Speaker B [00:11:54]:
The thing about. So it was burnout. As I peeled back the layers, well, part of what contributed the burnout wasn't just the pace I was going through life. And I was running three kind of scrappy, community based startups, nonprofits, a faith community, some different things. And it was both how I was going about that, like, the pace I was at, but it was at a deeper level how I, I over identified myself with what I do. And so the main contributors to, when I looked back at it, the main contributors to my burnout, really was this. I talk about it as like I was fighting this three headed monster that had ruled my life for a really long time. And I didn't realize it until that moment.

Speaker B [00:12:35]:
What was that three headed monster? It was just this achievement orientation. It was a, you know, this sort of attempt to be perfect and really this perfectionist streak. And the last one was this, performing to please others or working for the approval of others. And the last thing I'll say before just pausing is that, and this is what I'm getting at with this phrase, a million ways to lose your heart, in a sense, is that it's easy to name the really loud in your face ways that our lives fall apart. And it's like we start to notice things aren't working out, or we can see that in the lives of others, but often theres really these more subtle things, these operating patterns that we really carry with us from our childhood. And when we dont pay attention to them, they start to take over and we end up operating in ways that are inconsistent with who we truly are or who were becoming and our fullest self. And I really got lost and disoriented in that. And part of what made it so difficult to see was that I wasnt in some sort of.

Speaker B [00:13:41]:
The movies are like, these are stories from movies all the time. High powered person, high powered job, looking for the promotion or pursuing wealth, and then everything falls apart, and they realize that, like, oh, they should just be more present and happy with their family. Well, guess what? I was doing really meaningful, impactful work. It was virtuous in the mind, you know, to many people. And what I didn't realize is even in that kind of work, say, even in the helping professions, we can be ambitious, we can be achievement oriented, and we can be operating in those ways in a way that's actually really harmful to us and ultimately impacts how we're showing up to others.

Speaker A [00:14:19]:
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. It reminds me of, I remember having a series of conversations with a mentor of mine, this guy, Andrew Taggart, and he kind of described the initiation to some kind of, like, inner work or personal transformation is usually having one of two paths. One path is what you just described where, like, everything falls apart. Maybe it's a health crisis, maybe it's you lose someone close to you. But the other path, which I think is actually more common is, he called it like the pebble in your shoe, where it's like something just feels, like, slightly off, and it's easy to ignore for a while, but over time, it becomes increasingly more present. And so this kind of ties into something I wanted to talk to you about, which is this. Joseph Campbell talks about the refusal to the call, and that's the kind of very important part of the hero's journey. And I think that as a culture, we have so many increasingly efficient ways of refusing the call.

Speaker A [00:15:22]:
There's many ways that you could have justified yourself of, like, oh, the work I'm doing is meaningful, I have a good life, there's nothing wrong blahdy blah. And so there's another maybe parallel reality where you could have just kept on going down that kind of status quo but somewhat disconnected path. Or this is maybe more intense than it was. But Thoreau has this phrase of leading these lives of quiet desperation. And I think that speaks to the malaise that many people feel to some degree, they feel this sense of disconnection from their life. And so I suppose the question is, how do you know if you are refusing a call? And what are some of the steps you can take to looking towards it and to kind of moving into the next phase of the journey.

Speaker B [00:16:09]:
Yeah, that's beautiful. I think part of why refusing to call is so easy and so common is because when things start, we don't always know what the call is. Right. That's actually a foundational aspect of. So the call might be to leave and depart. Right. This departure phase to let go of something. But we typically, if we can't see what we're moving towards or what the next thing is or the new thing, it becomes really hard to leave something behind.

Speaker B [00:16:41]:
So. And that would apply to, say, a job or a relationship or where you live, but also at a deeper level, it can be really hard to let go of certain operating patterns, ways, you know, certain versions of ourselves, ways we show up in the world when we're not sure who the new version of ourself is and where that will fit in. Right. So this idea of not having clarity about what we're actually being called to, this is a huge barrier. So I have a lot of sympathy for people in terms of why we might not answer the call right away. However, refusing the call, I think the biggest way to notice if we're doing it. I mean, you spoke to sort of this malaise, or maybe there's this disease or discontent. I talk about at least a few signs that maybe we're being invited into something are discontent is one of them.

Speaker B [00:17:32]:
If we're continually feeling a sense of discontentment about some aspect of our life, it's worth paying attention to. Now, it might not be that. That's the thing that has to change. So, for example, I was in a job that within a few weeks of being there, I knew I wanted out of. And I wanted to fixate on that as if that were the primary issue. But ultimately, it turned out, and this was especially through the help of a spiritual director, I realized that, like, the thing I needed to let go of was not the job. Guess what? That would happen eventually. But what I needed to let go of was my over identification with this narrative of, I am what I do, or I am what I achieve, or, you know, I'm doing this innovative, unique thing, like, you know, wanting to do something that sort of stands out and gets attention.

Speaker B [00:18:17]:
That's what I needed to let go of, and that's like long, hard, slow work. So discontentment. Another thing would be transition. Seasons of transition are an excellent opportunity, at least to assess, are there things that we are? Is there a call that's being extended to us? So, yes, the call might be you're going to graduate school now or you're moving to some other place, or you're at one relationship's ending, a new is beginning, or fatherhood, motherhood, something like that. But those are excellent. Like, those are the sort of the surface expression, but it also opens up within us. Right. It brings up all these questions, and this is like, a very helpful time to do that self inquiry, listen, pay attention, and see what are the other things that are stirring within you that are perhaps an invitation into a fuller, more whole version of yourself.

Speaker B [00:19:04]:
The last thing I talk about that is a cue is, well, like some version of suffering, some experience, which is also suffering, really being a kind of the unexpected transition. So a tragedy maybe is even a more helpful way to think about it. Death of a loved one, relationship ending. These are all really powerful moments for us to do. That listening work, I'll land there, but I end with that word listening intentionally, because I think that is the first step in this work of self inquiries. How do I create spaces in my life where I'm intentionally listening, where I'm going inward? I'm not just paying attention to all the noise around me, but I'm making space for reflection. That's one of the most powerful tools in terms of assessing if there's something we're being called out of and or into.

Speaker A [00:19:54]:
Is that what your path looked like from the moment that you came in from the rain and you were in the fetal position under the covers? What am I doing with my life? What happens next for you?

Speaker B [00:20:05]:
Yeah, well, the first thing I did is I was like, I'm not doing anything today. I'm like, I'm clearing my schedule. My wife's like, actually, you do have a meeting with Ron, your mentor. Maybe you want to keep that one. Okay, guess what? That was a great idea. So I ended up having lunch with him, and I met him, and after we talked to him, I told him where I was at and all that. We finished up lunch, and he ended up walking into this shop nearby, and he bought me a journal. And so journaling, which I think I'm sort of assuming most people know that there's many forms.

Speaker B [00:20:35]:
By the way, there's not one, really. Just open up a book, get out a pen page, and just stream of consciousness write what's going on. Okay. Um, but for the longest time, I had always had a regular journaling practice, but at some point, it sort of morphed into, and I think there's still room for this. This is very important, but it became, I was constantly like, looking forward, what's ahead, what am I doing, what do I want to achieve? What are my goals? As opposed to looking inward? The looking inward is more of a reflective process. And you're saying you're like noticing your feelings and you're noticing these synchronous moments in your life. You're reflecting on things from your past that maybe you haven't dealt with. So journaling and specifically that work of going inward became a powerful practice at that time.

Speaker B [00:21:20]:
So that was really the one that kicked things off. But there were many, and I talk about all sorts of different practices in the book, everything from yoga to meditation to working with your dreams to seeing a spiritual director or therapist, things like that.

Speaker A [00:21:36]:
Beautiful. And yeah, as you were saying that the last time I journaled, I remember it turned into like, me writing a to do list for the day. This isn't the point here.

Speaker B [00:21:48]:
Yeah, you know what? And if you need to get that out of the way, just do that. But don't let that take all the time. I've had moments like that and that's fine. But then suddenly when you look and you're like your last ten journal entries, our to do list, maybe you want to reset.

Speaker A [00:22:02]:
Yeah, well, one of the practices that you talked about or rituals was this idea of wondering, and there's a quote that I think you mentioned I, that after you leave home, the old maps no longer work. And so I'm interested in what, to your mind is the difference between wondering as maybe like an evasion tactic, as like distracting yourself, versus. I think the phrase uses wild wonder, which might create the conditions for more insight or revelation.

Speaker B [00:22:35]:
Yeah, I think there's a tendency to hear that term wander and think, well, I'm just going to leave everything behind and I'm going to eat, pray, love my way around the world and find myself. And guess what? That might happen. But there's a lot of people who don't have access to financial freedom or work or whatever, where they could go travel even for a week or something like that. I think it's really important to say that though this journey, this journey towards wholeness may take you towards different places in your outer world, that anyone can go on this in terms of through traversing the terrain of your inner life. And yes, what assists us with that is the wild, which is nature, which nature is what we are also, by the way. But for me, one of the most powerful things was so I was living in the Pacific Northwest at the time. I had work. Fortunately, that, like brought me to different places, to actually your neck of the woods in Boulder, Texas, Florida, all over.

Speaker B [00:23:42]:
And wherever I was, I made an effort to, like, between meetings or whatever, I would find time to just go wander. Now, a wander in the wild is, it's not like I'm intentionally trying to, like, summit some peak or get a certain number of steps in. A wander is one of the ways to think about it. It's like an energetic dialogue with a place. I realize some of this might sound, start to sound kind of woo woo for people, but this idea of what does it look like to show up in a place, like in the woods or in the desert and or wherever you live, by the way, it could be like the park two blocks away. It could be like the vines growing on the fence in your backyard. It could be a plant in your living room if you're, for whatever reason, homebound. But just to be present to nature in such a way that you start to listen to it.

Speaker B [00:24:34]:
And perhaps, and I find this is often the case once we start to do more of that, rather than coming with an agenda and that agenda even being like, this is a tree. Hi, tree. Instead, just being like, this is something, this is a creature, whatever. And allowing it to like, what do you notice? What's the, you notice something on the bark, or is there a leaf that fell a certain way that draws your attention towards it? Oh, maybe there's like, suddenly you notice a line of ants crawling around the base of this tree. Interesting. Follow that. So, yeah, I think this idea of wandering is about being really present and allowing. I think you might be familiar with the work of Bill Plotkin.

Speaker B [00:25:19]:
So, Bill Plotkin is like an eco therapist, wilderness guide, has some fabulous books, one of them being Soulcraft, which was like my Bible. Throughout this journey. One of the things he says is nature is really a mirror to the human soul. And I think that captures the power of why this wandering in the wild practice is so powerful, as we are putting ourselves in a place where we are present to the natural world in such a way where it might reflect back to us something about where we've been, where we are, where we're headed.

Speaker A [00:25:53]:
Yeah, beautiful. It's funny that you mentioned Bill Plotkin. So he's been on the podcast before, and we talked about the journey of soul descent, which in some ways is almost like it feels like the map and your book is how that journey played out in your own life. So I feel like they're very definitely companion books to read. So it's something that I want to kind of double click on is the idea that you. It sounds like you did this whilst both having kids and also. And also working. And the reason I mention that is because a lot of people have a story that in order to, quote unquote, like, find themselves to do this deep inner work, they need to quit their job, you know, have no attachments.

Speaker A [00:26:36]:
Fly to Bali, let's say, which is, I can find it myself because that's what I did.

Speaker B [00:26:41]:
You live there, so you can pick on it more than me.

Speaker A [00:26:44]:
But it sounds like this was something that you were able to do whilst still holding the responsibilities of your family, your marriage, your kids, your job. And that, I think, is a. That's a unique. It's a unique perspective, and it also kind of means that it doesn't require you don't have to kind of sell your startup or be in this, like, post achievement world in order to engage in this work. So could you speak a little to that and like, maybe, what were some of the challenges of engaging in this pretty deep inner journey whilst at the same time having these responsibilities to show up for?

Speaker B [00:27:20]:
Yeah, that's a beautiful question. So about two years into my journey, so say it was like the fall of 2014, that early morning run. If you don't have your heart, you have nothing. About a year and a half, two years later, I was fortunate enough to have a sabbatical. Okay. You know, that's. They're becoming more common in some, you know, maybe in tech companies and things like that. As a former ordained minister, it's a little more common in that setting.

Speaker B [00:27:48]:
And I was eight years into my work. Often they come after seven. I was grateful to have it. At any rate, even that was very upfront. It was a clear reminder that, like, this. This space for renewal, refreshment, like, recharging, was not going to be something just for me. Because my wife and my family, we had a sense that the most powerful thing we could do at that moment was to leave Seattle for a season. We had been so heavily invested in our community at like a deep, deep level, really hosting, leading, guiding, facilitating all these things for years.

Speaker B [00:28:22]:
And it was time for us to get away from that. And perhaps, I think what we ended up discovering was receive hospitality, really the grace of hospitality in its transformative nature. But that meant, like, I'm driving across the country in a 2004 Honda Odyssey minivan with my family. This isn't like some fancy van that is parked on a beach, that's on Instagram or whatever. It was pretty chaotic, and the disaster in there. However, that really was a beautiful picture for what this whole season looked like, which was, yeah, I was surrounded by these people I love and also the chaos and the noise of it and still trying to figure out what was going on within me. And during that season, the biggest thing was finally coming to some conclusions that it was time for me to leave these organizations that I had started. So, anyways, that's like a little glimpse of it.

Speaker B [00:29:20]:
But, yeah, you can be absolutely, like, you don't have to be in Bali or around the world to be doing this work. You can be standing on the sidelines at your kid's soccer game and everyone, you might look the same to everyone else, but internally you're going through something extremely deep and transformative. And one of the things I'll say is, I think a tip I have for people is don't treat this as a treasure. So you do absolutely need to get help. That second chapter of my book, it's really important to have people therapist, spiritual director, an Anamkara, which is celtic term for soul friend, or an AA group or a spiritual community or something. You need something to be that context where you can really share what you're going through and in other settings, treat it as a treasure. Don't just, like, throw it around to anyone and everyone, because honestly, a lot of people aren't going to understand, what are you talking about? You're going to leave that job or what are you talking about? You're feeling discontent about, you got a great life. You know, there's like a lot of people who want to solve things too quickly for you instead of allowing you to be in the darkness and the wild of the unknown.

Speaker B [00:30:33]:
So I will say for me personally, yeah. Having a dedicated space. So it was every other week I went and met with my spiritual director. That's one of the core practices.

Speaker A [00:30:43]:
What is a spiritual director? Just briefly.

Speaker B [00:30:46]:
Great question. Yeah, I keep saying that. So another term often might be like a spiritual companion. It especially comes out of some cross religious traditions. But say there's this ignatian christian tradition, this is like Catholic, where there's this practice of meeting with someone who is. Their intentional work is to. It's not so much a therapist. You're not digging into all the stuff.

Speaker B [00:31:15]:
They're not trained that way, but you're not digging into all the stuff from your childhood, whatever. Nor is it like a life coach, where you're identifying things you want to work towards and setting goals and naming, say, where there's resistance and barriers. A spiritual director is really a person who at their core, helps. I mean, in many ways, like nature, as I was talking about in the wanderer, but holds up a mirror to you so you can see who you are, who you are becoming. So they're the kind of person that really holds space for you to not have it all together, to ask the big questions, to reflect on the. To really do meaning making about the events that are transpiring in your life so that you can stay true to really, the call that you've been asked to go on. So, yeah, I'll stop there. I hope that describes it.

Speaker B [00:32:08]:
But there are actually people who are professionally trained spiritual directors. There's an organization called Spiritual Directors International, which is a network of them. Some clergy from different traditions function in that capacity as well.

Speaker A [00:32:21]:
Beautiful. Yeah, I was not aware of that at all. That's really interesting. I suppose what I'm interested in now is you've accepted the call, so to speak. You've got some support, some mentorship, and you've begun this exploration. What were some of the. If I think about Joseph Campbell's hero's journey framework, there's usually you're kind of going into the road of trials, the moment where you're coming up against the dragons. What were some of those experiences like for you, and how were you able to emerge through them without getting knocked off course too badly?

Speaker B [00:33:02]:
Yeah. The road of trials. So when I think of what my trials were, what the dragons were, I needed to slay or I castle walls to scale or whatever, I would say that there sort of were three layers of work that I needed to do. One being was contending with my own story of this three headed monster that I talked about, really. That was the main kind of foe I had to face. And this process, it really. What's really important is, though, it's something. It's like it was, in a sense, an enemy I needed to vanquish.

Speaker B [00:33:39]:
And even more true than that is the fact that I needed to be able to welcome these parts of me. So, meaning, though I had functioned for a really long time as an achiever and a perfectionist and a people pleaser, there's reasons I function that way. And so could I interact with those parts of myself and not just sort of like fight them and take them out back and beat them up or symbolically take a bat, hit it to a sack of something and say, there you are, you're dead? No. How about. Actually, more helpful would be to really step into the vulnerability of looking and saying, well, now, why did I function that way. And being able to see that as harmful as some of those patterns have become, that there were ways that initially they were protecting me. They helped me fit in, they helped me belong, they helped me stay safe. In various ways, I end up.

Speaker B [00:34:31]:
I talk about this in the book, but that, for me, that was my reverent, obedient cadet. Okay. That character who really encompassed all those things, cadets, was this group I was involved in with my church as a young boy. It was like a Boy scouts, but in my church realm, and we didn't really learn that many wilderness or survival skills. So I don't really know what I learned there, but it became a good embodiment, expression of what my. To use language that plotkin uses, this idea of the loyal soldier. Loyal soldier referencing these troops in Japan who, after World War Two was over, they were still on an island. They didn't know the war was over, and they're still going through the motions as if they're ready for battle.

Speaker B [00:35:14]:
Eventually, these soldiers get discovered and they get called home, and people realize, instead of just shaming them, how dare you? The war is over. It's to say, hey, thank you for your service, but you're discharged. You no longer need to function in that capacity. So I had to do work on that with my own reverend, obedient cadet. So that was one aspect of the road to trials. Now that weaves into a few others. What are the few others? Well, the next layer of that is really, there's some stuff I need to confront with my own father in terms of this man who's always deeply loved me. And I felt that and has always been extremely proud of me, and I always felt that.

Speaker B [00:35:56]:
But at some point, I started to convert those messages of pride, which, by the way, I'll say, so many men, especially, never have their father say, I'm proud of you. Right. So I realized it was such a gift. And yet, over time, I kept hearing that I began to equate. I am loved for what I do and what I accomplish and what I achieve, and there was a way that I needed to face that, and that actually came up. Well, I won't spoil it, but there was a beautiful way that. That the opportunity to face that. He showed up in a dream.

Speaker B [00:36:26]:
I need to work through the dream. And then I actually ran into him in real life. I see him regularly, but I ran into him in another city and had this chance to really show up in a new way. And then the third layer, I would name the third aspect that I need to really face on this road of trials is I just had to contend with the fact that though there was a personal nature to what I was struggling with, and there was, like, you know, sort of family systems aspect of that, there was always a deeper layer, which is, you know, as a white male, there are certain things that I, you know, privileges that I've had and certain ways of being that I say privileges, but, like, there's certain ways of being that I never sort of. I was actually sort of. It wasn't privileged. It was like I was forced into this way of engaging the world. To use this phrase I say in the book by Willie Jennings, this, like, mastery, possession, control.

Speaker B [00:37:22]:
There was this orientation to the world in which, like, I need to become a master of this, I need to control this, I need to possess it. And that was really this other aspect that I needed to face on the road of trials. So there you go. There's other things as well, but those are the ones that stand out, those different layers of what we need to contend with.

Speaker A [00:37:38]:
Thank you for sharing that. It sounds like, I would imagine for someone listening that they'd be like, whoa, that sounds intense. Like, I don't know if I. If that sounds like. It just sounds like a lot of work, but what I really appreciate about your framing and Joseph Campbell's framing is this idea that it's kind of like an inner adventure. That's how I frame the work that I do with nervous system mastery. And I think that if you were thinking about climbing a mountain or going on or like a lord of the Rings type adventure, there's going to be challenges. If it's not hard at times, then it doesn't really qualify as an adventure.

Speaker A [00:38:13]:
So I suppose the other curiosity and maybe kind of gap in the story is how does that work connect with what you describe in the book as getting your heart back? And I think of the final scene in Moana, I don't know if you've seen it, but where she puts the heart stone back in Taffeti, I think the name is, and then this huge volcanic monster turns into Mother Earth, and it's this. I think that's a beautiful metaphor, really, for, I think, a lot of these processes. Was there a kind of defining moment where you're like, and you really felt yourself again, or was it much more of a kind of slow unfolding process where now you wake up and you're like, I feel present, I feel content. I feel more whole. What was that like for you?

Speaker B [00:39:05]:
I would say that there's both sort of a moment of feeling like I got my heart back. Like, I love you. Actually breathed like that when you said that. I love that. That's almost a very cinematic scene. The character has its breath. They come back to life. And I would say, for me, it was especially clear after I had completed a two week wilderness quest with Bill Plotkin's organization, Animas Valley Institute, that I had this time where the centerpiece of this two weeks.

Speaker B [00:39:36]:
So there was group work on the front and back, but the center was a three, four days solitude, three days a water only fast, like, all by yourself. And I was in a remote canyon in southern Utah, and it was just powerful. I had some powerful dreams and encounters there. And so I came out of that, and there was definitely a sense of, okay, that was on the heels of, like, three, four years of this inner turmoil and contending with the three headed dragon and all of this. And I really felt like, no, I've got my heart back. I'm in a totally different place now. Externally, there was still all this stuff that needed to be figured out. I was still in a job I didn't want to be in.

Speaker B [00:40:20]:
And there's questions about, how do I bring back what I discovered about myself? Sort of my calling. How do I express that? Which is why I will say the back third of the book is this idea. It's the rising to wholeness, but it's all about returning home. Movies often end. It's like the treasure is recovered or the enemy's defeated. And there's, like, two minutes.

Speaker A [00:40:40]:
Return to the shy.

Speaker B [00:40:41]:
Yeah, you return the shy and have a couple beers, and that's great. But it's like, what else happens, right? Like, in real life, we gotta figure out what the hell to do. Okay, how to integrate this. So I answer, in that sense, it was like there was a clear moment. At the same time, I will say that. And by the way, getting your heart back, the journey to wholeness, the hero's journey, these are all, for me, they're synonyms of the same thing, which is, like, we can put all this language to, but also, there's a way that it's indescribable. We're talking about something ineffable that we can't quite put words to, and yet we can sense it and feel it inside this sense of returning to ourself. But there's also a way that, like, there's a single moment, there's also a way kind of like, oh, I'm 20% heartback.

Speaker B [00:41:25]:
I'm 30% I'm 50% that there was a. A gradual, incremental increase in terms of feeling more connected. And each time you're feeling those moments of growth, because they do come along the way. Okay. It's not like you're just waiting for the final thing. The whole journey in and of itself, is like you're recovering your heart along the way. Being present in the moment, despite how hard it is, despite how challenging, despite how terrifying some of the. Maybe the conversations you need to have are, each thing, it's part of this broad adventure.

Speaker B [00:41:59]:
And each of those moments is something that in and of itself, is a moment of us reclaiming our hearts.

Speaker A [00:42:07]:
Yeah, beautiful. You touched on something that I actually would love to unpack a bit more. And that is the return to the village, as Bill describes it. And I'm good friends with someone who's mentored with Bill for a long time. And I think his major criticism of Animas Valley is that the return to the village can be so disorienting for a lot of people that sometimes they are just unable to function, and other times they just revert back to the way that they were before. And im wondering, how do you think you were able to create the conditions for integrating those powerful experiences were the certain I think bill uses, etc. Or experimental threshold crossings is the phrase that he has, because I think that really is in some ways, the biggest challenge of all, is, like, you have a new way of orienting to the world, and that might involve different friend groups, different careers, different place that you live. So how has that process unfolded? And I would imagine that even writing the book was potentially a part of that as well.

Speaker B [00:43:13]:
Yeah, it absolutely was. So it was 2019 when I emerged from the canyon and really felt like it was emerging from these canyon years of my life. And one of the things that Animas Valley did, the guides from the trip encouraged us to do, is come back with a project like, what's your project going to be? What's the project that's going to carry forward what you discovered about yourself here? A project could be something that's just very brief, or it could be work that lasts a lifetime. And the helpful thing about this idea of a project, it's rather than going and immediately making some huge decision like, this is over, or I'm starting this, or I'm moving here, I'm going there. It gives us a way to sort of experiment with what we've discovered, but it also makes it actionable so we're not deferring this work of integration. So I came out, and it could be anything from you start volunteering somewhere in your community. It could be you become a beekeeper, you could plant a garden. You could start painting.

Speaker B [00:44:21]:
There's all sorts of things it could be for me. I had this. Within a few weeks, I had this clear idea of what I needed to do, and it was I needed to perform a one man show for my community, for my friends. And so my birthday was, like, six months later. So I set the date on the calendar, I booked a small local theater, and I started. The whole idea was, I need to. It was finally time to start sharing some of the stories of what I had undergone for the last four or five years, and not just to share, to just talk about myself, but I am convinced. I still am.

Speaker B [00:44:59]:
And I was convinced then that each and every one of us has these mystical experiences. We have these stories, these strange occurrences, these synchronicities. However we would describe, describe them, sacred stories, these moments that are at once profoundly transformative and often, like, totally ridiculous. Like, oh, I had this encounter with a cactus, or I saw this owl in the woods, and I felt like it was saying this to me, or I ran into this person and they randomly said this thing. That was exactly what I needed to hear. I think we all have these moments. It could be a dream as well. We don't necessarily talk about them.

Speaker B [00:45:36]:
We don't necessarily know what to do with them. And I just wanted, by telling my own story, to encourage people and embolden them to listen to those things and see how they might be, you know, they might be calls that are being extended to people that they need to answer. So, anyways, six months after I was in the canyon, I did a show called Mister Mystical. And it was pretty fun. But also, I'll just say this about it. This was the other important thing. It was one night only, and that's important to name because I'm not saying anyone would have wanted it more than one night, I'll be clear about that. But it was important to me as someone who had spent a large chunk of my life where everything I did was like, well, what is this going to lead to? And what do I do after this? And how do I make this into a thing? How do I build on this? It was really important to say, could I just create for the pure joy of creating and being present to the work and dedicating myself to the craft? Could I just do that? So I did it.

Speaker B [00:46:37]:
And actually, it wasn't till, like, I, you know, it was really fun. And a lot of the people that were a part of my journey were there, as it turned out. Like, I did it and I put it away. But like a whole year or so later, after I moved across the country, Covid had started by this point. It's like the story started coming back to me, and I realized, like, oh, there's, I felt an invitation to get back into it. And that's what eventually morphed into this book. So projects are really important. I want to answer one more thing, because I really do recognize this challenge.

Speaker B [00:47:11]:
I think this is where practices are so important. Meditation, breath work, things that you support people in doing. Could be a really appropriate time to start seeing a therapist or see that spiritual director. Maybe it's like showing up on a yoga mat every day, but finding those things that are going to anchor you and will keep you tethered to where you've been, rather than giving into the dynamics, the chaos of what's around you, that's going to be really important.

Speaker A [00:47:42]:
Yeah, I totally agree. I think that's very well said. What do you view as the relationship between a meditation practice versus some more of the kind of soul explorations? And I say that because I have a lot of friends who are currently exploring Zen and Vajrayana Buddhism and all of these different non dual practices. But to me, it feels like it is a different exploration to, I think, the journey that you've been on. So how do you view them complementing each other?

Speaker B [00:48:13]:
What I would say is, I just actually heard this analogy the other day. I think a lot of the, like, meditation, for example, I teach a mantra based meditation. The lineage is out of ancient India. It would be sort of a cousin practice to something like transcendental meditation, be in that family. And so I'll speak to that particular meditation practice. There's a sense that it helps you turn the lights on in the room. Okay. And then all these other things, they help you clean up the room.

Speaker B [00:48:47]:
I think there's more. So you don't want to just clean up the room without also turning the lights on. So I think there's many practices that probably fit both of those categories, but I think that's a helpful analogy for people to consider, is as you develop a toolkit of what your ritual practices are, your practices are, do you have a balance of things that both help you, like, are about, like growing your awareness about stabilizing your ability to be present, stabilizing your nervous system? Do you have things that give you more clarity? And then also do you have practices that you know or practices that calm you, that help you rest, that, like, get you in your body? And do you have practices that are reflective, that are more, like, dialogical, like, are, you could say, perhaps even more now, people might see certain meditation practices, very spiritual. Could be. But practices that you would say are about that bigger conversation. That conversation with you could call it the divine, if you want, or God or soul or big self, but really are about drawing forward the deepest, truest aspects of yourself and getting beneath kind of the clutter that's accumulated there or the masks you've been wearing. So without naming them all, I think there's lots of practices that fit in either of those and probably some that overlap in both.

Speaker A [00:50:11]:
Nice. Yeah, I totally agree. I think having your own curated ecology of practices and knowing when to turn to each one is a really key skill on this path. And then related to this, there was a chapter towards the end where you talked about staying weird, and I'd love it if you could speak to that a little bit.

Speaker B [00:50:33]:
Yeah, that was a fun kind of discovery. So Thomas More, who is a writer, care of the soul, is one of his famous books. At the end of one of his books, he talks about this breakfast he was having with someone, I don't know how many years ago. Maybe it was the early eighties or before that. He later reveals it was Joseph Campbell. But over breakfast, they're talking about, Campbell was floating around this other term, which was like, basically, be faithful to your weird wyrd. And this was a reference to this trio of sisters, the Nord sisters. One of them, I think, had the name weird, but who would, from norse tradition, would spin the threads of fate, basically of destiny.

Speaker B [00:51:21]:
And he was basically saying, like, what does it mean to be faithful to your weird? Well, guess what? That didn't sell as well. It wasn't as catchy. But eventually, it's the same concept that Campbell's getting at with his other term, that right along hero's journey would be like a famous one. And that's follow your bliss. Okay. Follow your bliss. So this idea of being faithful to your weird is to follow your bliss. And so I looked at that and I said, well, maybe actually we should get back to that weird thing, like, especially given there's multiple meanings.

Speaker B [00:51:50]:
Weird meaning like living into your destiny. We could say, like, into your calling and taking agency in terms of moving forward in your life. We could say weird also meaning, like, weird or strange. Like, you know, the mystical experiences you have, the things you do. This idea of, like, going on this inner journey. There is an aspect that, like, it's. It is weird. It will look weird to other people.

Speaker B [00:52:12]:
It's counter cultural. There's decisions you make that just don't fit in with the status quo. And so anyways, there's these multiple meanings that this idea of staying weird feels like a powerful invitation. So that you go on this journey, there's discoveries you make, and in order to go on it, though, you have to be willing to open yourself up to, really, the critiques of others, the perspectives of others, which, the deeper you get into it, in a sense, it sort of matters less. But to depart from what's familiar, that's both what's familiar to you, but also the familiar place you've held in the lives of others, that's a big deal. And there is going to be resistance. You're going to be perceived in different ways. But rather than seeing that as an obstacle, why not embrace that weirdness as part of what this adventure is all about?

Speaker A [00:53:05]:
I love that. I'm also curious, how is being a father kind of related to your journey? And to what degree have you shared this with your kids? How has simultaneously raising children been a part of this journey?

Speaker B [00:53:23]:
Yeah, I'm glad you came back to that because I feel like I kind of dropped the ball on that earlier question. I want to say that it can be. So I'll go a few directions here, but in regards both to this and what you asked earlier, I don't think, like, family need not be viewed as an obstacle for this journey. Like, because, well, why? It provides this incredible, just, like, community, as at its best can do. It provides this incredible stability for you. So you're anchored here and now in the present with your kid who you need to feed or you need to bring them to school or to a playdate with a friend or whatever. Their huge issue is that they're dealing with that day like it's an anchor. So even in those, like, that's a lovely context from which to then explore and go on your own inner journey.

Speaker B [00:54:15]:
It's like having children, having a family is such an incredible way to get perspective. So, yeah, there are going to be moments where you're feeling like you're totally in the dark, but then you're holding your child or you're playing, you know, playing catch with your son or whatever it is. And, like, you're brought back into the here and now, and you realize, like, I have everything I need. Like, what a gift this moment is here and now. And having a family is also in a way, it's motivation to say, what do I want to pass on to my kids? Do I want to leave them, like, a shit ton of money or get them into the best school, or, like, all access to all these things? Or do I want to be someone who's fully alive, who's connected to myself, who's continually spiraling more and more into wholeness? And do I want to show them what it looks like to be living that kind of life? That's what I want to do. And so there's this incredible incentive to, like, not fall asleep, to not just settle into the status quo, to not just, like, go through the motions of life, but instead to, you know, stay weird and be someone who's becoming more and more alive each day, because that's what I want for them. So in regards to what that looks like here and now, I mean, yeah, they knew every day I was like, I would sneak down before they went off to school. When I had this other job, I'd write for an hour before work, and then I'd come up and we'd have breakfast together, and they go off to school.

Speaker B [00:55:42]:
And this whole book thing was a very abstract thing to them. And then one day it shows up as an advanced copy, and they're kind of like, whoa, none of them have read it yet. So my oldest, just for reference, for anyone listening, is like my oldest. I got two teenagers actually, in a preteen at twelve, so they all could read it. I'm not expecting them to. No. There's no pressure, but they're in it. They're a part of my journey.

Speaker B [00:56:06]:
They're in it. And at its core, really, I wrote it for them. I wrote this book. I wrote the full thing. Without a book deal, without a literary agent, without a platform. I just knew I was being called to do it. It was an adventure I was being called to embark on. And at the bare minimum, I was like, I get to share this with my kids.

Speaker B [00:56:24]:
That will be really sweet. So, anything else? We'll see. It'll be fun. But I absolutely love being a father. It's the greatest gift, and it has not in any way detracted from this journey of becoming. It's been such an asset and such a gift.

Speaker A [00:56:43]:
I love that. I love that so much. And as you were sharing of what is it you want to pass on to your kids, there's a quote from Howard Thurman that came to mind. He says, don't ask what the world needs, ask what makes you come alive and go do it. Because the world needs people who've come alive. And I think that really kind of speaks to exactly maybe what your North Star has been. Well, I'd love to transition into a few rapid fire questions, and then we'll begin to wrap up here. Okay, so, first question.

Speaker A [00:57:13]:
This is appropriate segue. If you were to describe the work of the way home, which is your book title, if we haven't mentioned that already, to your twelve year old kid, what would you say? How would you describe it?

Speaker B [00:57:26]:
It's a book about the journey of becoming your fullest self. It's for people who have. It's for you. When you've outgrown a version of yourself and you realize it doesn't work anymore and you want something more, what is.

Speaker A [00:57:41]:
One ritual practice that you might offer to a listener who is currently in this call to adventure?

Speaker B [00:57:50]:
I think the wander in the wild would be at the top of my list to clarify what that is. It's just go find a space, get some time outside. So ideally, yeah, if you can get to expansive natural area, let people know where you're going, or to a park, or just to walk down the block, even if it's with your dog, just how can you get outside? And instead of staring at your cell phone, right, just leave it behind and just pay attention. What captures your attention?

Speaker A [00:58:19]:
And for someone who is going through some of the trials facing some of the dragons, what is one practice that you might, or an invitation to help them remember and help them to find their way back?

Speaker B [00:58:32]:
Well, I think what I would invite them to do is actually, if they've been journaling already, so I'm gonna assume they have been. Okay, let's just say they have been. Even if they haven't, it's fine. But because you can also do this as an imaginative exercise, think back to when you first heard the call or when you first started to sense that a shift was taking place in your life. If you wrote about that at all over a season, I'm say, over a course of weeks or months, go look, see what you were writing about. And even though you haven't arrived to where you're headed, like, congratulations and like, what courage you've shown to have left and be on this journey, even though it's really hard right now. So whether you've journaled about that, the other way to do is just think back. Think back to the moment or the season which you were unsettled, and you're like, you know what? There's something more.

Speaker B [00:59:18]:
This isn't just, I've outgrown this version of myself, think back and have a conversation with that version of yourself.

Speaker A [00:59:25]:
And finally, this book, the way home. I'll hold it up for the camera there. What is your greatest, maybe your heart's greatest aspiration or vision for this book and the way that it kind of ripples throughout the world once it's live?

Speaker B [00:59:43]:
My dream is it would help more and more people become fully alive so that we would see more and more people connected to their hearts and living out of that deep, internal, true place as opposed to moving through the world in a distracted, chaotic, externally referenced kind of way.

Speaker A [01:00:03]:
Thank you. Well, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. And I'm imagining this episode will be aired the week that this book is out in the world. So where would you direct people to learn more about it and maybe get a copy?

Speaker B [01:00:19]:
Yeah. Johnny, this has been so great. Thanks for having me, and thanks everyone for listening. The book is available, Amazon, Barnes and noble, all sorts of places, especially encourage you. If you have a local book store, I'm sure you could order it through that. But if you go to thewayhomebook.com comma, it'll direct you to a webpage that will give you all the clicks to those links to those different places. So, thewayhomebook.com beautiful.

Speaker A [01:00:45]:
And the links should be in the show notes below as well. Well, I like to close with a line from rilke. He said, try to love the questions themselves and live them. Now perhaps you will. Then gradually, without noticing it, live your way into the answer. I imagine you've heard that a few times before. With that in mind, what is the question that is most alive in your consciousness? And what question might you leave our listeners with?

Speaker B [01:01:11]:
I would say this is actually, I'm collaborating on a project with a muslim friend of mine right now, and this is a line from, I believe, the prophet Muhammad. And, but it's a variation. But it's essentially, am I being faithful to what is mine to do? You know, I could say it another way. Am I being. I think it's more like, am I being a true conduit to the divine? So there's a lot of ways to ask that. So I realize people have different beliefs and perspectives about all sorts of things. And I will say, you know, you read this book. My concern isn't about, like, what the belief is, but it's about this sense of how do we, paraphrasing this question again, is like, how do we stay open and receptive to what is real and true and become people who express that in the world.

Speaker A [01:02:04]:
Beautiful. Well, thank you so much. We'll wrap the show with that.

Speaker B [01:02:08]:
Thank you Johnny.

Speaker A [01:02:10]:
I hope you enjoyed this conversation. It would mean a lot to me if you could take a few seconds to open up your podcast app and give curious humans a shiny five star rating. This not only helps more people to find it, but it will help me to get more awesome guests in the future. And if you're not already subscribed, then the curious Humans newsletter is where I share monthly morsels of interestingness and podcast updates. You can sign up for that at Jony life. That's j o dou n y lyth. Thanks for listening.