Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
This isn’t your average podcast—it’s a radical little book club for your ears.
Each week on Assigned Reading, feminist business coach Becky Mollenkamp invites a brilliant guest to read and unpack a feminist essay. Together, they dive into the juicy, nuanced, sometimes uncomfortable questions these texts raise about power, identity, leadership, liberation, and more.
If you’ve ever wanted to have big conversations about big ideas—but without having to get dressed, make small talk, or leave your introvert bubble—you’re in the right place.
🎧 This show is for the nerdy, the thoughtful, the socially conscious.
💬 It’s for people who crave deeper dialogue, new perspectives, and human connection in a world full of sound bites.
📚 Think of it as a feminist book club you don’t have to RSVP for.
Assigned Reading is here to help you feel less alone, more seen, and newly inspired—with accessible essays, warm rapport, and the kind of smart conversations that stay with you.
🚨 Sign up for Becky's newsletter, Feminist Rants Are My Superpower: https://beckymollenkamp.com/rants
🎤 PROUD MEMBER OF THE FEMINIST PODCASTERS COLLECTIVE 🎤 http://feministpodcastcollective.com/
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.546)
Hi Kim!
Kim Romain (00:01.784)
Well hello, Becky!
Becky Mollenkamp (00:03.784)
I, for whatever reason, decided to pull, I have these affirmation cards that I love. They're called Wise Words. I got them on Amazon. And I decided I would pull one before our conversation, just to say, I asked the universe, like, what should I keep in mind as I go into this conversation? I thought I'd read it you, because I thought it was interesting. It says, I believe in the power of consistent, committed work and patience. With every effort I put in and each moment of patience I hold, I get closer and closer to my goals. And as we're talking about developing a liberatory consciousness, and some of what I was reading,
Kim Romain (00:10.083)
Nice.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:33.716)
Certainly from my perspective as somebody who is part of the, what does she call it? Not subordinate. What's the opposite of subordinate? Thank you. it's, it feels like a Monday. It's not, as part of the dominant, a dominant group, at least within the, where it comes to race, it just felt really appropriate. This idea of it's committed, consistent.
Kim Romain (00:41.775)
dominant. Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:58.408)
Action and work and patience around this stuff is what helps us begin to change it. So anyway, I would share that I thought was interesting
Kim Romain (01:03.683)
Yeah. That lands so deeply with what everything she was sharing in this piece. the... Right? It's so cool. The thing that gets me is I was sitting there and I was going, okay, I need to actually know when this was written. so 2000 is what I found. Is that what you found as well? Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:11.694)
I love the way the universe delivers.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:25.39)
I actually didn't look it up, but thank you for doing that. I was just going to quickly search, but thank you.
Kim Romain (01:30.447)
No worries. Yeah. Yeah. I saw 2000. So it was republished in 2011. We have a republished again in, uh, 2021 right after, um, the last administration. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but the first time it was published was 25 years ago. That hit me.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:42.925)
it's late.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:49.698)
Mm-hmm.
Well, first of all, the fact that 2000 is 25 years ago, that hurts pretty deep, but I well, it's interesting because for everything that we're reading for this, all the essays that I've been reading for this podcast, so many of them are easily a decade, two decades, some even more, some as old as 50, 60 years old. And still around issues of sexism, racism, all the isms, classism, ableism, everything we're reading, it's like,
Kim Romain (01:55.533)
That hit me too.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:21.762)
this could be written right now, which is a bit sad in a lot of ways that so little has fundamentally really changed. I mean, we see progress, but also so much of it's still at play.
Kim Romain (02:35.951)
Well, I think that's what, just to jump to the punchline for me, that was the biggest takeaway for me from reading this was, holy shit, we've come a long way, yes, but we're having the conversation around those four elements that she's talking about. And those four elements are really still at play. And that's a huge thing is how at play they are.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:41.134)
I'm Ben.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:05.954)
Yeah, I agree. Did you know this work beforehand?
Kim Romain (03:06.787)
Right?
Kim Romain (03:10.445)
I didn't know this work before him, but interestingly enough, so I knew her name and I was like, how do I know her name? So I went back. She actually taught at UMass Amherst, which is where I grew up. I grew up in Amherst and she was a member, founding member of the National Organization of Women in Amherst, of which my mom was a member of, which I went to the meetings to when I was a kid. So I may have met her at some point.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:31.576)
That would be amazing. What a small and interesting world, isn't it? This is one of the few pieces that I'm reading for this season of the podcast that I have read before. Most of them I'm trying to read new to me as well. But I felt like in a season one of this podcast, there were a few things that I just really thought needed to be included. And this is certainly one of them because I think so much of what we're talking about in this podcast are the challenges that we face around all of these systems of oppression.
Kim Romain (03:34.431)
my god!
Becky Mollenkamp (03:59.552)
And I feel like this piece is a piece that helps give us a roadmap for change. And I think that's really important that we include not just the things that are evaluating the systems, but also things that help us start to say, okay, so then what does it look like to change? And I love that this is at that individual level, right? It's not about these big giant, I mean, sure, it also applies to dismantling things that are more at the bigger systemic kind of level, but it's also individually.
like in our small everyday actions, what are the things that we can do to start to be a part of the change we want to see? And I think that's important.
Kim Romain (04:37.551)
It is completely important. the thing that I feel like we have a tendency to do is give, are the three things you can do. We get really prescriptive about it. And what I loved about reading through this again, and well, reading through it for the first time and then reading through it again and then again, to really soak it in was that place of there's so much possibility.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:47.566)
type.
Kim Romain (05:04.193)
in each of the elements that she unfolds for us.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:07.606)
Mm-hmm. And each of them could apply to any situation. Right. So it is like a four step solution, but it's not right. It's four tools that you can bring into any moment of your life to help you then begin to make some change. So just for people who haven't read it or even if you have, let's just review because I think they're that important. The first piece is awareness. The second piece is analysis. The next piece is action and finally, allyship.
Kim Romain (05:10.863)
100%. Yeah.
Kim Romain (05:15.375)
In way, in a way.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:36.14)
or accountability. So they're all A's, which makes it really nice and easy to remember, which I love. And I think, honestly, I'd be curious what you think, because I'm curious which of those four feels the most challenging for you. I think for most people, the first one is the most challenging. It's simply the awareness, because we are so, as she talks about, we are so, I would say brainwashed, but we are so like brought up in the systems of oppression. It's the waters we swim in that we don't notice it. It makes me think of that.
Did you ever see the movie Soul from Pixar? God. And there's this beautiful story towards the end where the old lady's telling him like there's this fish the whole time he's swimming and he's like, he's at somebody asked him something about water. And he's like, what's water? Like this fish doesn't even know that he's in water, right? Because it's just how he is. You don't think about it. If that is everything that that your whole life has ever just been there. You're like, I don't even know what water is. It's just the place in which I live. And that is what systems of oppression are for us. And so
Kim Romain (06:07.075)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:35.17)
Being able to get the awareness for that fish to be able to actually become conscious of, I'm in water, that is really, really, really, really hard. And I think honestly, if we could just get 100 % of people to that place, forget about those next actions, I think so much would change.
Kim Romain (06:52.699)
I don't disagree. think that collectively, the largest problem is awareness across the board with anything. We just don't have awareness. We are so steeped in, but this is what we do and we're cogs. We're just moving through a machine. And I think for me, that's the least problematic because that has been the place that, right, that's been my journey is this place of awareness and consciousness. I feel like once we have that though,
Becky Mollenkamp (07:14.562)
Yeah. Same.
Kim Romain (07:19.959)
The next hardest step I think is action because I know so many people that sit there and say, but I don't know what to do. Right. And.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:30.382)
Is that actually at the analysis piece though, do you think it's because the I don't know what to do is like the analysis to me is like being in because I was actually thinking I wonder for me I think the hardest might be the analysis is deciding what are the right actions because once I know them, it's often easier for me to do the thing. It's trying to figure out what should I do in this moment or what is okay for me to do in this moment, especially on the parts where I have a dominant identity. I find it most challenging of like, where's that line between
Kim Romain (07:40.303)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:59.438)
appropriate action or me trying to show up as a savior and you where am I overstepping or where am I you know giving myself permission not to take action so I wonder if it's for you if it feels more like that analysis or the action piece.
Kim Romain (08:08.399)
You
Kim Romain (08:13.103)
still feels like the action piece. Personally, for me, and Mary, yeah, I think the analysis part was super sticky for me. I mean, it's still sticky because it is that place. We don't want to put our foot in our mouth. We don't want to say the wrong thing. We don't want to, right, did I do this okay? Was this okay? Did I step into the space in an appropriate way, in a liberatory way, instead of appropriate?
Becky Mollenkamp (08:16.876)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm wondering for you.
Kim Romain (08:41.264)
cause we don't want to be appropriate.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:46.046)
That's a good call out for people too, because I think that is one of those things that, again, without awareness, we will think, well, it's inappropriate. Is it or is it not? Yeah, liberatory. Yeah.
Kim Romain (08:56.431)
Yeah, I mean and that comes into the language, right? It's it's where do we where do we play with get to play with the language? And that's why I think analysis doesn't feel so sticky for me anymore is because I approach it with a little bit of play and it is When I make a mistake which worry we all do when I make a mistake I come to that place of that was a mistake and and where do I?
What does it feel good to me? Right? And how do I deal with that? But don't deal with that. Don't ask somebody else to hold that for me. Because that is the analysis. To me, that's a large part of the analysis part is how do we take it back to, now we have the awareness. Now we want to step into a little bit of action, right? Because that's our nature is to jump right to the action place.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:52.408)
Right.
Kim Romain (09:53.443)
but to slow down and say, okay, what is mine to hold here?
Becky Mollenkamp (09:59.566)
Yeah. I think you're 100 % right. think typically, especially those of us with, again, I think often we're speaking here around the dominant identity because, and it'll be interesting to explore because we both have oppressed identities as well. So we can explore those as well, just not around race, but around many other issues. And so it'd interesting to think about on the other side. Right now, my head is going to the dominant side. And in that place, when I'm, so for me, primarily around issues of race, I can, in the beginning, back when I began this journey,
of truly trying to move into a liberatory mindset versus sort of my good white feminist space that I held for a long time. There was that feeling of as soon as you cease like this, once the awareness is there, you do feel like this need to jump into action. And I do think that that's really important to point out because I think that for me is a big difference of where when I go there, it's often because it's that saviorism stuff that I need to unlearn still. And if I take the time to go into analysis.
then sometimes that helps me at least not jump into actions that probably were grounded in that, in that belief that I'm here to like save people, which is certainly not the case. And also, I still find for me, analysis is often the most challenging because I still, you know, and I've been working on this shit for a long time and I still find myself grappling a lot with is this the best course of action? And, and
I think part of what gets me stalled there too is also grounded in white supremacy, which is perfectionism, right? This need to get it right, quote unquote right, right? You know, like, am I taking the best action here? Is this the right way to do this? How are people gonna perceive me? There's so much of that and where it goes back to again, centering myself in the moment instead of centering the needs of someone else. And so that, I mean, as much as I would like to say that that doesn't still get me, it does all the time.
Kim Romain (11:31.055)
That's it.
Kim Romain (11:53.242)
Yeah. Well, I'm not saying it doesn't get me. It's just how I approach it. Yeah. think for the challenge for me in the action space is knowing it. And I'm hearing you with the analysis. And I think it's like that bridge place between the analysis and the action where it's where it is that here are all the actions I could take. What is the action I'm meant to take?
Becky Mollenkamp (11:55.458)
No, I mean, This was just the most sort of challenging and yeah.
Kim Romain (12:21.475)
because I think that's the tricky part with action, particularly with white saviorism, particularly with white feminist saviorism, we often feel like, this is something like, I now have to go do this thing versus what part of that is actually mine. And so...
Becky Mollenkamp (12:37.548)
right, because it's coming out of the guilt that we often have as white folks. And when we are taking action from that place, it's
Kim Romain (12:40.195)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And growing up, right, the child I told you, exactly. And growing up at the beginning from that place of, going to the National Organization of Women, right, this was a feminist organization. I grew up, now granted there was a lot of diversity around that table, but growing up as a feminist, like being raised and groomed as a feminist, there's so much deconditioning that has to come from around that.
to look at it through a laboratory lens.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:13.336)
Yeah, that's why this work's so critical because, you know, a lot, we're, in this podcast series, we're examining some older essays that are written by white feminists and, you know, and it's that hard part of separating the art from the artists in a way of like, can we take the pieces of this that are still valuable and important and also understand that they were still very much, even when, you know, as feminists as they felt they were, that sort of that first wave, obviously, second wave, and even into third wave, there's still a lot of this.
centering whiteness inside of this feminist experience and centering cis het whiteness inside of this experience. And so having to like honor the parts that made progress for white women, because there is, I mean, that was still something of value. And at the same time, and equally, it was falling way short and not enough and not okay. And so much that we have to unlearn with that.
And I have spent, like, it is amazing once you have the awareness, going back to this first step, this awareness of the ways that your own feminism has fallen short. And that's, I found that to be a really uncomfortable place when I started this journey, right? I'm sure you did too of like, no, what do you mean? Like, I love everyone and all, you know, all of that stuff that we have. it's, it is so, so confronting to have to say that can be true and
There are so many ways that I am still continuing to perpetuate these systems that I benefit from. And this is what she talks about here. And it's so, so, so hard that first part of when you have that awareness. And because I think, again, like you said, you get to the awareness and then the goal, like you start to feel this, like, I have to take action and it's almost to absolve yourself, right, of your sins. And that again, that's centering yourself and that is not the point, but it is so hard because it's hard to just sit in the awareness.
Kim Romain (14:57.359)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:05.752)
So that first piece is really, I think again, for people who are beginning the work, that is so, like I don't wanna underplay it. It is, is fucking hard.
Kim Romain (15:13.263)
It is really fucking hard. Yeah, it is. And to keep returning to that place, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (15:19.35)
Yes, because then there's a new thing and a new thing and another. And that's the, I think that's what's hard too. And I've talked about this, but like, think whiteness and systems of oppression in general teach us to win, right? Because again, if there's this hierarchy, that means there's winners and losers. And so we think we can win the game of unlearning or becoming liberatory or whatever it is. Like I'm gonna, I'll get to the finish line. I'm gonna, I'm gonna.
do this perfectly and then I'll be, I will be done. can check it off my to-do list. Yep, took care of that. Became anti-racist, check, right? Like whatever the thing is. And the really hard part is when you finally have to come to that realization, like, no, there is no finish line. I will never be done. I will continue to excavate and find new places that the stuff is still in there because I'm continuing to breathe it. So it's still finding its way into my body and I have to keep pulling it out. And that will be a job until the day I die. And that.
at first is really, really overwhelming, I think, and then eventually I find if you can get there, there is freedom in that because it means that there isn't a, you don't ever have to finish. You never have to get this right. You just keep trying.
Kim Romain (16:26.063)
Right? Right. There's no perfectionism.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:29.261)
Yeah.
Kim Romain (16:30.529)
There is a huge amount of freedom in that. She talks in it about awakening, right? And that's what you're talking about. When we awaken to that idea of this isn't a one and done, this is the process. We are constantly becoming aware and re-aware and re-aware. I'd love to know, Becky, from your perspective, because we've been talking mainly through the white lens, the white woman. Yeah. So what...
Becky Mollenkamp (16:55.848)
Yeah, the lens of race, yeah.
Kim Romain (16:59.929)
has been your experience, your liberatory experience through your other aspects of
Becky Mollenkamp (17:06.318)
It's so funny you just said it, that's just what I was going to say too. Because I think it's important to say that, we have dominant. And we have a very important dominant identity that I think we have to obviously examine and talk about as constantly. Because that whiteness piece is really, really painful and powerful and the source of so much of the problems that we have. So I, of course, have to go there. I also have many.
not dominant identities. First and foremost, I'm a woman, right? And so, or at least perceived as a woman, still exploring my own feelings around my gender. I use she, they pronouns because I, while I feel like I am perceived as and oppressed as a woman, I have also always felt more of a performance of femininity, a performance of womanhood versus ever really feeling fully settled in like, that's a thing that I would use to
describe myself other than I know that the world experiences me that way and my oppression is experienced that way. So like I both hold on to it tightly and also sort of reject it completely. So there's this tension there. Yeah. And then I'm also queer, pansexual. And so there's another identity that I, that is the one for me that is probably the newest of my own work in this way of having to uncover, explore, excavate, confront work on.
Kim Romain (18:10.317)
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:29.12)
my own internalized homophobia. And that has been interesting. But even with womanhood, not just even around gender, but just the idea of my sex, my quote unquote biological sex, but the way I am perceived and was born. I also find that I have more internalized misogyny than I thought I did back in my days of being a good white feminist, right? When I was in more of my girl power state.
I used to not think about that. And now I more and more I'm realizing the ways I have that internalized misogyny as well. also not a, you I'm a member, I am not religious. I am of no religion, which in America means that that's also, I am a part of the non-dominant identity. I know you're in Canada, so we can talk even about that potentially. You know, and then dealing with class, where I sort of sit in the margins. And that's always very interesting too, when you're kind of right at like this weird margin space of,
I'm certainly not poor, but I'm not in the wealthy class. And that's an interesting experience as well. So yeah, I have all these other identities and with each of them, the same stuff. I'm at various sort of points on the journey, even though I know it's a non-ending journey, but I've done more work with some of the identities than others. Certainly probably womanhood is the one I've done the most work on. And I would say my queer identities probably because I feel like a baby queer at 50, even though I mean, I've been queer my whole life, but not.
really truly kind of coming to terms publicly with that into the last few years. And so, yeah, that's where I'm probably still doing the most work. So now all of that rambling to say, how about you?
Kim Romain (20:08.399)
I echo a lot of that. I mean, we're very much the same in that. So, yeah, I've definitely spent most of my time on the dominant race that obviously I present as, and I'm a dual race because I'm ethnicity, it's also a race. It's considered a race. Yeah. So it's like, is it? And so dealing with that particular is a non-practicing Jew.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:24.674)
Mm, ethnicity.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:29.656)
Interesting, okay?
Becky Mollenkamp (20:33.858)
Yeah.
Kim Romain (20:38.756)
as a non-assimilated JIT, right? It's like, I am.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:41.518)
Well, and also in the current climate with everything happening with Israel and Gaza and Palestine, that certainly probably brings some of those issues to the fore for you.
Kim Romain (20:49.615)
whole lot of it, which I will just own 100 % right here, has gone completely underground because I don't want to have, it's like, I don't want to be associated with it. don't want to be, right, stand with Palestinians, don't mess with me kind of thing, but I can't have that conversation with my family.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:08.812)
And that's a place where, I think that's so interesting if I can just, because that is where privilege and the way that we have, and that's what we've talked, I talked in another episode about intersectionality. So if you didn't hear it, go back and listen, because this is where these intersectionality, the intersectionality piece comes in and is so important, right? Because we can have multiple overlapping, everyone has multiple overlapping identities, you know, around sex, around gender, sexuality, religion, right? Like with all of those, everyone has some different places where they fall and
some of those, you can have both a dominant and a subordinate. And when you have both, it's interesting. And I don't, I'm not pointing this out as a way of saying, you know, shame, shame, Kim, because we all do it. I think it's important to notice when we are able to fall on one of those dominant identities to protect our subordinate identity so that we don't have to be inside of that, right? Where like, again, as white women, can, we are oppressed as women, but we also can then,
rely on the whiteness to protect us to some degree. And you have that ability as somebody who's white, non-practicing, you know, have all these other identities that allow you to kind of put that other subordinate identity sort of almost to the side. Yeah. Yeah.
Kim Romain (22:18.671)
100%. And I'm well aware of it. Right? that is, there is a lot that I'm internally unpacking very slowly about it because it is so tender. It is so tender. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:26.477)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:30.926)
And the slow, it's okay. just, you know, because again, that idea that you're doing it wrong, Kim, you know, like that stuff we see on social media. I know you don't feel it, but I hope for people listening, like, because social media is a fucking cesspool of people who will do that sort of thing. How dare you not immediately have this all figured out, be totally vocal, be like in the quote unquote right. Well, because you're still in the awareness and analysis, you know, it sounds like you're moving to the analysis stage. That can take a long time and that's okay.
Kim Romain (22:37.166)
Hello.
Kim Romain (22:57.394)
100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that is part of where I am completely sticky in the analysis part because I'm like, ah, I know ethically, I know morally, I know all, like I know my values, I know where I stand with this. And I'm really the place that's sticky for me is, and I can move through the world without anybody knowing. And that I don't know if I'm okay with that.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:04.142)
Yeah!
Kim Romain (23:26.147)
Right? don't know if I'm, I mean, I am because I've had, have several times throughout my lifetime been like, I'm not, I am not religiously Jewish. That is not my identity. And, ethnically I am like that is part of, mean, there are special blood tests that I had to go do when I was pregnant because I'm Jewish. Right? So there is an aspect of that.
The other part that is new for me that I haven't come out publicly about in a lot of spaces is I'm also a baby queer, but it's like, it's not new to me. It's just, I don't talk about it because it's not, right? It's not something that I, it's not something that I'm embarrassed to talk about at all. Like I'm happy to talk about it. just haven't. I don't have an answer to that. And that's not, again, where I think I'm in that analysis of like,
Becky Mollenkamp (24:16.632)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Romain (24:20.995)
Why am I not, I'm talking about other people. Why am I not talking about me? Right? I'm uplifting all of these queer voices in the world. Why not mine?
Becky Mollenkamp (24:25.613)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:32.106)
That was very much where I have been and still in many ways am, although a few years ago I finally was like, I'm going to adjust. need to own this. not that I hadn't owned it. just need, I wanted to, I didn't want to keep shying away from the conversation or excusing myself from the conversation or, know, cause sometimes, well, why do I need to bring that into my business life? And all of these sorts of things that really under analysis eventually began to crumble because it's like, well, but I talk about being a woman. What's the difference in, in
that's a part of my identity and so is this. And like I talk about being a mom, that's part of my identity. Why is this not right? So like the more we go in through that analysis, often things will begin to crumble. it's, that's why the analysis stage is so important because it then helps you start to think about, okay, once I do that, then what actions are left? And eventually I got to that place with that of the action that the only action that actually makes sense to me once I've done enough of this analysis and all of my sort of either stories or, know, the
beliefs I had that were really grounded in homophobia. Once it started to go away, it was like, really, I was left with, I need to be talking about this. That's just, right? I just need to be a part of my experience. And so that looked like a bit of a coming out. I did it on coming out day a few years back and just shared my story. And part of my story too was this belief that as a bisexual or pansexual, depending on how people are using terminology, woman who is in a cis presenting relationship,
I had this like this strange feeling of I don't belong in this space or because it goes back to what you're talking about, these overlapping identities of, right? Because this relationship, the way I presented the world protects me. I know that I can go, I could easily go about my life continuing to not talk about this queer part of my identity and remain completely safe because of how the world perceives me. And because of that, because I had that.
Kim Romain (26:05.529)
Bye.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:23.606)
It felt like almost like I don't deserve to be in this queer space because you're dealing these folks who are in this space who are not able to hide behind some of their identity. They don't have that privilege and they have real safety concerns, real fears. Like they're really in this fight for their lives where I felt like who am I to be in that space if I have kind of this privilege I can hide behind. Finally, I realized though I need to be in that space for that very reason because otherwise all I'm doing is contributing still to that oppression.
It is when I start to say, no, this is a valid part, a very real part of my identity. And just because you world perceive me differently doesn't mean that's not true. And I want this family of mine, this LGBTQ family of mine to know I am in this fight. Right. And I'm no longer hiding behind that privilege. But that took me a long time, Kim. And that's the whole point for people that are listening of like, don't let the you have to do it a certain way thing push you.
beyond where you're ready. That doesn't excuse you to say forever I get to hide or do whatever, or just not confront this. But if it takes you a long time to do that analysis, to do the work that it takes for some of that stuff to fall away so that you can take the action, that's also okay.
Kim Romain (27:33.072)
Yeah. Well, and I think that goes back to also what does that action look like? Because that action, you know, I have taken that action like internally in the world in the areas that feel very, not safe necessarily to do it, but in the places that that's where I wanted to share. And I thought it was important to share. One of those being with my daughter, my 15 year old daughter and her friends. I also shared with my husband because you know, that was an important place to share.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:37.272)
Yeah!
Becky Mollenkamp (28:02.264)
Sure.
Kim Romain (28:02.991)
in a cisheterorelationship. It's kind of important to share that. But when we share those, when we find a place to take action, there is no wrong action. We can make mistakes. Again, going back to that, right? How do we make mistakes in this world? How is it okay to make mistakes? We can absolutely make mistakes in the analysis, in the action, in the allyship. Like we can do it all across the board.
But taking the action, once we get through the analysis and we go, okay, now I'm ready to take a little action, that little action moves something forward to your point.
Right? Of not getting stuck in that analysis, of not getting stuck behind the, well, I'm not queer enough. Right? And I grew up like, I'm not Jewish enough. So why would I put myself in a position of I'm not queer enough? Like, what does that even mean?
Becky Mollenkamp (28:53.238)
Yeah, but don't you think so many people I because when I came out and shared my story, I was blown away by because I shared it in my with my email list and the number of folks who email me back saying that is exactly my situation. I am a bisexual or pansexual woman inside of a heterosexual presenting relationship. And I don't know. I have not felt I can own that identity publicly for these same reasons. Like I don't feel like my it's like.
I don't think my oppression is enough, right? Like you're like, I'm not queer enough or whatever it is. But there are so many people who I think feel that. And then that that keeps them silent or it keeps them, it sort of keeps that internalized homophobia or whatever the identity is, the internalized anti-Semitism. Like it keeps that alive inside of us. And that's common.
Kim Romain (29:24.473)
Yeah.
Kim Romain (29:43.002)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that allows that dominant narrative, as you were just talking about, it allows that dominant narrative within ourselves to continue to drive the bus in such a way that we feel badly about ourselves, right? We feel like we have done something wrong on both sides. I'm not enough of this and I'm not enough of that. So what's wrong? So I'm just going to hide and I'm not going to show up.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:13.933)
Yeah.
Kim Romain (30:14.317)
And what a disservice, not only to yourself, but to others, and definitely not liberatory. Like you are not liberated if we're living in that place of like, where can I, like, why can I not bring this part of myself forward?
Becky Mollenkamp (30:28.408)
Yeah, yeah, it's a disservice to you first and foremost, right? And then also, like we were saying, it's a disservice to the other folks who don't have that privilege to sort of hide behind their own perceptions, the perceptions that the world has of them. And yeah, that isn't liberatory. And I think, I'm curious, this just makes me think right now, I'm curious, like, what does it feel like to you if you have an answer? And this can just totally be off the cuff because we didn't prepare anything.
Kim Romain (30:31.791)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Romain (30:49.924)
See
Becky Mollenkamp (30:58.594)
What does liberatory, being in a more liberatory state, how does that feel different to you and in your body than when you in the past have not been? I'm just curious if anything comes up for you, even just an embodied answer.
Kim Romain (31:12.333)
Yeah, I love that question. There is the easiest answer that I can say is I can breathe.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:19.246)
Mmm. I love that.
Kim Romain (31:21.199)
There's not the tension, there's not the holding, there's not the gripping. when we're gripping, like naturally when our bodies are gripping, we're also holding our breath. We're breathing much more shallowly, I can breathe.
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:38.254)
That's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I think mine is similar. As you say that, that actually lands in my body really well. So maybe I'll know that might be my answer. But for me, it feels like this difference between kind of being in a shell, like being small, tucked in tight, you said, tight, hidden versus like that feeling of, and if you're not watching on YouTube, I'm making myself like really small, but then like that expansive chest out, shoulders up, know, shoulders back, head held high.
Kim Romain (31:44.559)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (32:06.7)
And with that, you're right, because it does create that extension that allows you to breathe more fully. that might be, in summary, really what it is, is about that ability to breathe. But for me, just feels like, I think that's why I love the word pride so much for the queer community, because it does feel like that difference between shame and pride, right? Shame feels small and inside yourself and little, and pride feels big and out and expansive. And I don't...
I'm not bringing it only to that part of my identity because I also feel that when I am able to feel liberatory around, you know, gender and sex and that part of my identity, where it's interesting is where I have a dominant identity and thinking about what liberatory feels like because I think it feels different because or and I'm curious what you think because when you're in your dominant identity.
I don't think that is not usually an identity that's associated with that same sort of restriction. So do you have any thoughts on that when you think about whiteness and feeling more liberatory in your white identity?
Kim Romain (33:08.857)
Well, it is interesting because I actually do feel smaller in my white identity because I've always...
When I was younger, the best thing I could say about it was, I'm sorry.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:26.776)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kim Romain (33:28.749)
Like I was born into this body, it happens to be white and I'm sorry. Cause I never, I've never felt like it was the right body.
in that way. that interestingly the point of quote unquote pride, right? That place where one would more naturally because it's the dominant, I actually, that's the one I want to.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:41.592)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:55.278)
Yeah.
When you think about the work you're doing around that identity and when you are doing the sort of liberatory work that's involved as a dominant identity, does it shift though how you feel inside of that identity?
Kim Romain (34:09.263)
It does. Yeah. So that now it feels more neutral. feels, yeah, because it feels like I don't, there's a...
Becky Mollenkamp (34:13.858)
neutral.
Kim Romain (34:20.751)
It's not a full on resistance to the white part of my identity, the dominant, that part of my identity. It's not full resistance, but it is fairly neutral. It's more of a...
Becky Mollenkamp (34:22.477)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:34.094)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Romain (34:41.677)
Yeah, it's more of a, it's interesting because it depends also in the situation. So if it's just me in the world, wandering through the world, it is really neutral. If I just kind of feel it's there. If others are in the world that don't have the same dominant characteristic as I do, it is a step. definitely feel it both a step back and a in certain situations I will
put myself in a position that not in terms of saviorship, but to utilize that privilege that I have, my whiteness. So I'm very aware of my whiteness in ways that, again, from like more of a neutral standpoint. How about for you? What is,
Becky Mollenkamp (35:15.118)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:26.85)
Yeah, as I'm thinking about this, feel like it's interesting where the feeling of for me around my oppressed identities or my subordinate identity, where it once before doing liberation work felt like small and not able to breathe. And then after doing, you know, not after, but in liberatory work, I feel again, that expansiveness and able to breathe. I'm thinking with the dominant identity before doing liberatory work, before beginning this journey, I think of it more of like being blind.
So not being not instead of not being able to breathe. It's like I was blind. I was oblivious, which I also know. And this is in no way casting a horrible judgment on my former that former version of myself because I was doing what I knew. And I always think we have to point that out for people like wherever you're at the journey, let's remove the shame and the blame and the guilt and all of that, because it's not helpful. White guilt never say it did anything helpful in the world. But I would say when I was in that blind space, it also meant I was pretty oblivious.
And that also sort of means careless, right? As much as I thought of myself as a kind, compassionate person, I couldn't have been because I was so oblivious and blind to my own circumstances and other folks' circumstances, right? And I don't mean blind in the way of like, I was colorblind. I mean blind to the realities of the world, right? Because I had that privilege to be able to, to be able to move about the world in this way that was really sort of floating around like.
Kim Romain (36:42.255)
So, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:51.078)
everything's just fine, right? Like that that privilege bought that for me. It bought me that ability to just be sort of careless and probably in many ways kind of cold, right? Because I could be. And it's icky to think that way, but that is probably the truth as I think about that blindness. And now for me doing this laboratory work around my dominant identity, I think the difference is that now I feel a softening. Like with the awareness comes this sort of softening.
this deeper level, like wells of compassion I didn't have before, which can be painful, right? It can, like in that way of sort of feeling that smallness, but it doesn't feel small. It just feels, it does feel heavier. I went from a lightness to a heaviness, but I don't, not in a carrying a burden way, but in a like, I am now able to see. And with that means I'm able to care and I'm able to, it makes me feel more fully human. Maybe that's it. I don't know.
Kim Romain (37:43.898)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really is. I think, so as you were saying, right, when I'm talking about like that place of neutrality, it's not that place of uncaring and flitting through the world, right? That place of neutrality is, it's a holding of space for myself and for others, right? And like, that's what you're talking, like I feel that that heaviness, that weight, it's just, it's like,
Becky Mollenkamp (37:46.914)
It's hard to describe in a way, isn't it? But yeah.
Kim Romain (38:13.421)
It's a little bit like a weighted blanket to me is what I'm hearing.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:15.886)
Yeah, it's not a bad weight, right? It's not like I'm carrying the weight of the world. I'm carrying, it is shallow versus depth, right? Yeah, and I like depth. So it feels good in a lot of ways. There are times when it doesn't. But for the most part, when I'm in that liberatory state, because there are many times still with my dominant identity that I'm not there. And in those times, I do think it feels more like that. And that is a sign for me that I'm not acting in a liberatory way.
Kim Romain (38:24.375)
Yes, yes, there we go. Yes. Yeah. 100%.
Kim Romain (38:32.281)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:45.602)
Right? When you start to feel that smallness, then it's like, there's a sign.
Kim Romain (38:45.721)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had, it was a small, out of pure exhaustion and I had a word that came out of my mouth. I don't, I genuinely don't remember what the word was. I remember the feeling after I said the word, which was holy shit. Where did that word come from? And I actually said, like it came out and it immediately followed. Like, where did that word come from? Person I was talking to just went on. Like they were fine. Right. And whereas I was holding the weight of it.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:04.205)
No.
Kim Romain (39:16.225)
And it was that uncomfortable weight, that awareness that then led me to the analysis, that then led me to take some additional action based on that. That then right now lets me feel, okay, I am doing the work. I'm aware of the work. Not that it is, yay, Kim, gold star, you did the work. It was, okay, now I've worked through that process and now I've had a deeper, that well feels purposeful.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:44.856)
Good for mentioning the gold stars too, because we've talked a lot about the saviorism and I do think that is sort of where that gold star comes in and the perfectionism. But I just think that's a good thing for people with a dominant identity. And again, when we're talking about dominant and subordinate identities, we may be speaking through our lenses. Obviously we have, we can only speak through our lenses, but just know, I mean, it really doesn't matter what identities you have. Almost every person has both dominant and subordinate identities. When we look at all of the places that those are, there's class, there's race, there's a bit, you know, there's neuro,
typical, what's, what would be the word for neurotypical or neurodivergence? There's neuro ability. I don't know. It's all quite, I don't know if it's also inside of disability, but those, know, and there's, there's, gender, sex, race, like there are so many places that most of us have both. So as we're talking about these, it's both. And I think it's important when you're in your dominant identity or examining your dominant identity and thinking about those actions, where am I doing this? Because I'm looking for absolution for a gold star.
Kim Romain (40:20.419)
Neuroability, think it is,
Becky Mollenkamp (40:44.514)
right, for praise, for something that makes me feel better. Because we have to, like that is, think, the sign inside of that analysis into action is, is the action about me or about the person who doesn't have the dominant identity? Because that is a really good sign, whether it's a good action or not, I think. A helpful action.
Kim Romain (41:03.491)
Well, I think so, absolutely. Well, and I'm glad you said the word helpful because there's so much of what we do that, and I think she actually got to this in the piece that she wrote was right. Action for action sake isn't helpful.
Like, why are you actually in it? That's again why I think action becomes challenging because that action for action's sake. So, right, if I blurt out some word that had nothing to do with the, I mean, it had something to do with the conversation, but whatever, was some conditioned word that popped into my language that was like, where the fuck did that come from? When we have those moments, to me, I think,
looking at a laboratory lens, we first want to see what impact it took. That was like, regardless of any reason why I said it, what was the impact that it took?
Becky Mollenkamp (42:03.714)
Right? Intention versus impact. So, so, so we can't stress enough how important that is. Intention does not matter. Impact is all that matters.
Kim Romain (42:07.983)
It doesn't, it's all that matters. So that was where I checked to make sure, right? No, there wasn't impact. Fantastic. Then this is my work to do. Like it was my work to do anyway, but now I, it doesn't need to be dealt with here in this moment.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:25.11)
Right. There's no need for the accountability piece and all of that outside, external accountability. was all about internal.
Kim Romain (42:29.143)
Right. All about internal, but that was right going forward into that action place. I did take action, not by making amends, quote unquote, making amends. Like there was nothing to be done there. There were, there was other work to be done. So that's where I think our understanding of what the work looks like also is so different and coming from that place of intersectionality to do the work.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:54.466)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kim Romain (42:56.227)
Because that is where, when in this conversation, what's coming forward for me is this place that when we lean into the dominant parts of our identity, that allows us to take certain actions that we may not be ready for or able to in our other parts.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:20.118)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's beautiful, right? Because there is this responsibility to use our dominant identities for the goal of liberation for everyone, right? Because that's where that happens, right? Like men ultimately are responsible for dismantling patriarchy in the same way white folks are ultimately responsible for dismantling white supremacy. And so
as a white-bodied person, have that responsibility to a degree to be a part of dismantling white supremacy. And as a woman, I am not benefiting from patriarchy, right? And yet those two things are really intertwined in so many ways, right? They support each other. And so that can become a conflict of...
where do I have responsibility versus where is it potentially harmful for me to get involved? And so sussing all of that out is not easy, but it is important work. And some of that is why, like, again, the more marginalized identities you hold, more oppressed identities you hold, the more likely it is going to be challenging to take that action. So if I mostly have dominant identities, like if I were rich, cishet, able-bodied, you know, all the things, and a woman,
white woman, I would have a lot more responsibility than say a white woman who's also poor, disabled, know, a Muslim or some other, you know, non-dominant religion, whatever, all the things. And so that is, I love that you're mentioning that, that's where intersectionality again is so important in all these discussions.
Kim Romain (44:55.961)
Yeah, yeah. And for those of you who saw, I gave a little smirk. Well, thank you for talking there because that definition of that white woman who has all that other privilege, that all the other dominant aspects of her identity in there.
is very much where we see, I think, a lot of the challenges with when people talk about, well, women, women in general, but what they're really talking about is white women. And what they're really talking about is white women who have so many dominant aspects of their identity that people don't understand that that does even within the community of white women, if there is such a thing.
there is such a discrepancy. Like I do not, I don't know what it's like to live that life as much as I don't know what it's like to live as anybody else, right? Exactly. was like 14 different identities came through at that moment.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:58.178)
black disabled woman. Right? Right. Yeah. Or somebody who's in another country where everything's very different. You know, we're obviously speaking here from a very North American perspective that's related with Podcasts is For. So if you're listening from the outside, know that. And I know that every place has its own issues. I just think this episode and this piece are so important. And I think really should be listened with as like a pairing with Tori Williams Douglas's episode
talking about intersectionality, Kimberly Crenshaw's amazing piece on that. Because what you just talked about, there's such a beautiful understanding that that piece talks about and that we discuss in that episode. So please listen to it. I don't know when these come out, but please listen to both. Because what you're just talking about, like that white woman with all, who's basically her only marginalization is woman, right? Everything else she's holding more dominant. Kimberly talks about the way we could, if we stacked people based on their marginalization.
Kim Romain (46:48.793)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:56.098)
folks with the most marginalization at the bottom and then least up to the top. And then there's the floor to where above sits all of the white men with no marginalizations, right? And if we see that as a silly, and then there's this hole in this, in the, in the floor. And when, when we are, conventionally people are talking about liberation, quote unquote, when they're talking about making changes to try and help people, what they mean is who's the person right there that I can pluck them, right? It's only the one I didn't like.
That one step away is usually all that we're talking about. And so the farther down you are, once that one person's plucked up, they can't reach you, right? And so they just put the door down because they were not, the idea being like, you were never gonna get here anyway. You were too far away. Like, we're just gonna help the people that could have reasonably gotten here. Those first one or two, we'll pull them up because they could have reasonably been here. The rest of you, you were never gonna get here. And that is sort of like that thinking that is really common that we have to look for inside of ourselves.
which is what I think this invitation is. So if you read that and you come out of that with that understanding, then going into this and thinking, okay, now how does all of that, all of those issues of intersectionality in my own identity, how does that play with how I show up then when I think about awareness and, no, not assessment, analysis, not assessment, analysis, action and accountability. And I wanna make sure because we're gonna come up against time soon. I wanna talk about the accountability piece, because we haven't as much.
Kim Romain (48:12.291)
analysis.
Kim Romain (48:20.655)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:22.11)
those first three I think are like just so big. But I it's really important that we also talk about accountability and allyship. And my favorite quote from this piece, I think, came from that section. I'm just going to read it really quick. And just know that wherever it, when it's talking about white people, you can substitute that for any dominant identity, right? So if you're not a white person listening to this, just think about your own dominant identities. But many white people flounder in their efforts to extricate themselves from racist conditioning. They become stuck.
while working on racism, because their socialization to the role of dominant provides very little opportunity to understand what life might be like outside that role. That makes me think about that blindness I was talking about, right? The way you just kind of, you can just kind of float around the world because you just don't have, there's like so little awareness because of that privilege that you hold and whatever that dominant identity is, but certainly whiteness and maleness are two of the largest of those, right? And so, and the most sort of powerful in the systems we live.
Kim Romain (48:58.596)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:16.674)
And I just think it's interesting because that is where she starts to talk about community as an important part of this work. Because it can be very, like I think so many of us start with this so internally and we aren't doing this in community because of the shame and all these other things that are there. But that can become really unfortunate because that's where I think you can get stuck in that awareness place and the icky, small, I feel so shameful places because you can't imagine another way.
because it's never something you've had to explore or think about. You don't even know what it could look like. And so you're left in this place of, it's never gonna change and I'm always gonna feel this shitty about myself, right? Whiteness sucks. Whiteness isn't going away. So I'm forever just gonna be here feeling shitty. And that is where she taught. And that's why I think this part of this accountability and allyship is so important because I think it's what can really help move you beyond some of that icky, shameful stuff is doing this work with others.
Kim Romain (50:13.273)
Yeah, I actually made a note on it that says awareness is where all learn what is the awareness is coming from when we're all learning from each other. Mistakes will happen and we're not and they're not detrimental to moving things forward towards liberation. And this question that comes up is who needs to be at the table to make that happen.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:29.464)
Hmm?
Becky Mollenkamp (50:34.754)
Yeah.
Kim Romain (50:36.589)
because we know, we've seen, we've seen, right? And we've probably even experienced a little bit, the, when you're at, you went bottom up, I'm gonna go side to side. When you're at the far edges, it's really hard to get those people to come to the table. When you're in the middle, you're probably already at the table.
So how do we start building out from there to start bringing more of these voices together so that we're not just having people say, is water? Because I think it goes back to that, right? It's, what are you even talking about?
Becky Mollenkamp (51:20.002)
Yeah. Yeah, it makes me think too, where she talks about in this part around this belief and you said this is written in 2000, so 25 years ago. this belief has been around for a long time that it is not the responsibility of the folks who hold the subordinate identities to educate and those with dominant and or to change the systems. And she agrees. She's like, well, that is sort of and she uses a quote unquote righteous stance. It can also be impractical.
in some ways because of this very piece of I can't see what I can't see. If I don't even know I'm in water, I can't imagine air. I can't imagine land. I don't know what that is. Right. And for those of you who have been forced to be living on the land while I've been down here swimming all happily, you know, you have that experience and you can talk to me about what that is. You can help me begin to understand and see and think about how we can, you know, bring these places together and all of that.
It's hard to do that. is what, this is, I've had this conversation before, like Faith Clark and I had a beautiful conversation about some of these issues and had some different beliefs on it. And well, not even different beliefs. I sort of fundamentally agree with her and what Barbara's saying around, it's not our job. And is that practical in that, do I really want to sit and educate men about sexism? I'm fucking done with that. I'm so tired of it. Like,
Kim Romain (52:42.35)
You're
Becky Mollenkamp (52:42.358)
If they don't get it by now, fuck you. I have this righteous rage around that, that I don't want to do that work. And because of that, I can understand also the righteous rage of black women who are like, I'm done, I'm tired, I'm sick of it, you guys aren't learning, you 55 % of white women still voting for Trump, I'm done, I've tried, I'm out. I get it. And there is still this part of me that's like...
Kim Romain (52:58.319)
Yep. Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:05.038)
It is tough because I want to continue to do the work. And I feel like that's my responsibility as a white person to do what I can to try to help other white people begin to see a different world, see possibilities. I just don't know if I believe there are enough black folks, not, sorry, I don't know if there's enough men doing that for white, for other men. And I worry that things won't ever change if we're relying only on those with dominant identities to change things. And so Barbara would say,
Where it I think you tell me where she came down on this. But my thought is she's coming down where it's safe, where you can participate, be at that table. And I feel like that's probably the key is, yeah, I can't I'm not going to educate men who don't want to be educated. It just causes me harm. But do am I committed to still doing the work with my husband? Yeah, I am. And that's a relationship inside of which I feel safe to do that work and where I can see the immediate.
differences it makes just in the way he parents our child with me. But anyway, I don't know, what did you think about when she was talking about that? Because it is a bit of a change from what we often hear about who should be doing this work.
Kim Romain (54:11.971)
Yeah, mean, I'm torn on it because I don't believe those with the, as she calls it, the subordinate.
identity, I don't believe that they, I don't believe it is their responsibility.
But going back to what she says in the awareness, there has to be the awakening. And I think those two are inextricably linked. So how do we...
affect awakening in those instances where we don't want to put those with the subordinate traits in that position to do the wake. Like how do we do that? And I think it becomes.
Kim Romain (55:06.847)
Which women are still okay with speaking in these spaces? And in what spaces do they feel like being at the table works?
from there, which men are taking that conversation forward. Because you're right, can't count on the majority of men to carry this forward. My husband and I have this conversation all the time. I'm like, you work in the aviation industry.
Imagine if you brought some of these concepts forward or just called in a man or two, once a quarter even, to say what you said is not.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:45.987)
Yeah.
Kim Romain (55:47.684)
Like what would start to happen? And that is his work to do. And I think the hard part is in, right, I'm not going to have that conversation with them. That's not safe for me. They're not my colleague, right? It's like, it's not, that's not safe. So where can we create those threads?
Becky Mollenkamp (55:54.744)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:05.144)
Hmm?
Becky Mollenkamp (56:11.491)
Yeah.
Kim Romain (56:13.091)
to those places and then continue to encourage them to one, continue to learn for themselves, right? If people are open to questions about that aspect of their identity, fantastic. Ask them, if they're not, don't assume.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:32.044)
Yeah.
Kim Romain (56:33.367)
wait for somebody to offer and say, you have questions, let me know.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:36.462)
Yeah. Well, we could go on for a long time. Our time's up. This is the problem with all these conversations. I would probably make them like eight hours each, but people would not listen. So I'm going make us wrap up. Thank you for that. think I personally believe this is one of those essential pieces that everyone needs to read. But I'm curious what you think. Who should read it? Do you recommend it?
Kim Romain (56:59.341)
Yeah. Yeah, I highly recommend it. It's an easy read. It's short. It's an easy read. It's likely if you've been doing any of this work, it's not going to be something that you're like, this is brand new. I never thought of this. It is going to be a moment where you go, yes, and how do I bring this into this moment?
Becky Mollenkamp (57:19.82)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know that it's anything revolutionary, but it is, right? But I do feel like it is the thing that we like, I feel like everybody should print it out or at least put those four words somewhere that should be a part of everything you're doing and just constantly going back to them and asking yourself, how am I doing on these right now? Where do I need to be recommitting to this process? So thank you for reading this with me and talking about it with me. And I loved this conversation. Thank you, Kim.
Kim Romain (57:24.067)
Not now.
Kim Romain (57:48.63)
And thanks so much for all your work and having me on the show. Appreciate it.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:51.8)
Yay!