Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to the Essential Dynamics podcast. I'm Derek Hudson. Essential Dynamics is a framework, a mental model I've been working on to help us think through our most important challenges and our trickiest opportunities. In the podcast, we test the concepts of essential dynamics through deep conversations with interesting people. Today, I'm thrilled to welcome back Lisa Sharapata to the podcast.
Derek:Lisa is an interesting person. Lisa, welcome, and, thanks for thanks for coming back.
Lisa:Yeah. Well, thanks for having me. I'm glad you still find me interesting after our first conversation.
Derek:Well, like, I think we have unfinished business. So so Lisa is the Chief Marketing Officer of Arbinger Institute. Arbinger Institute talks about the outward mindset. That's what we were talking about in our previous episode. And I usually title these episodes after the conversation.
Derek:So this might be, we might come up with something different, but I think I'm really interested in something along the lines of practical outward mindset. So we talked a little bit last time about the concept that if you treat people like people, and consider their interests and are the genuine, and you can work together more effectively. We talked about how it's really hard to keep it straight when you're dealing in more of a transactional point of view. And if you're trying to see people as vehicles to get your own, objectives accomplished, that's a tricky, hard world to live in, and it's certainly hard to be treated that way. So what we wanted to talk about this time is the positive side of that.
Derek:And, how do we actually learn how to treat people as people and how you do that in an organization if you're a leader, then maybe if you weren't a leader. So Lisa, I think that's I just find this fascinating that the organization and you found each other, and then you went and read the material and liked it and said, Okay, I'll work for you. And so then you went from maybe being a little disillusioned about some of the things that you were seeing in business practice, and then you went to kind of like the Garden of Eden. It can't be that good inside in. Like, it's a real organization, right?
Derek:It's one thing to write the book or give a course. Is it is it as good inside as you thought it would be?
Lisa:Yeah. I mean, a few things I'll say is when I started, four months ago, there were less than 50 employees. We're at over a hundred today. So we are growing
Derek:Holy smokes.
Lisa:Really quickly. Yeah. And one of the things that we're really focused on is our culture and and how do we carry, you know, our mission and values forward inside of our organization, you know, walk the walk and talk, you know, that we're we're speaking of. Right? So, like, last week, we brought the leadership team together.
Lisa:We we did some planning and all that good stuff, but we also went through our materials. And we we talked about using these materials in our our day to day in a constant flow. Right? So some of the things we have are tools like it's called the meet to learn. So when you're new, when someone comes on, there there's a a tool for that.
Lisa:So it's like everybody knows what to expect in that conversation. When you see a meet to learn, get put on your calendar, you know what that is. You know what's kind of expected in that conversation, and it helps. Right? But, I mean, those are kind of basic things.
Lisa:Like, I think, you know, you come on. You you already probably know that you're gonna start creating, you know, having meetings with other people. But it we have another tool. It's called start the right way. Right?
Lisa:And so it's like before going into that meeting, you're directed to review this. And and my boss did it with me before I even started with the company. And it was one of the coolest things that has happened to me in an onboarding experience because he said, look, you're coming in this C suite role. Lots of X expectations. You know, what would it be like if you came showed up in the box in word, right?
Lisa:I would probably need to be seen as competent better than the other candidates. I'm I'm important self important, highly qualified like and how would that how would I show up if I show up that I need to be seen as highly qualified and better than the other candidates? Or I could come across as judgmental or arrogant or unapproachable, close minded, or maybe I'm nervous. I'm I need to be seen as this, but I'm worried I'm worse than the other candidates. Another trait of being in the box.
Lisa:I might be nervous. I might need to act like I have to prove myself right away. And, I mean, we've seen this, and we've seen I mean, I'm sure I've done many of these things, and I've seen it with other people coming in. Right? And it just it rubs everybody the wrong way.
Lisa:You're getting off on the wrong foot. And so it's just like it's checking checking yourself. Right? And I used to call it, like, check your ego at the door and just do some self reflection, like, look in the mirror. And now, like, there are I have these tools, and it's, like, just checking my mindset.
Lisa:You know? And then there's what's the outward way of doing that? And so being curious, being humble, asking open ended questions, seeking to learn from other people. One of these meet to learn questions is, how will my in my role impact your role? How have you worked with my role in the past or my role didn't exist?
Lisa:How do you see yourself working with my role? And truly being curious and and thinking through what it must be like to be that person who's now got someone who's gonna be coming in changing their the dynamic of their day to day. Right? And so if I can genuinely be interested in what they're doing in their role and put myself in their shoes and understand that impact, And we can talk about the goals and mission of the company and the greater good and and start to think through, like, well, how could we work together that would benefit everyone? Right?
Lisa:And we start the conversation that way instead of me coming in, needing to show that I'm the best candidate or highly competent. Just pause there and say, I mean, just imagine the difference between those two scenarios.
Derek:Alright. I my mind is going crazy because I'm replaying all kinds of scenarios that I've participated in in the past. And and one one thing that strikes me is, the the recruiting process, the ones that I've, you know, sort of been through and probably administered and that's sometimes really seems set up to set people up in the box, because you're looking for, you know, this list of qualifications that's better than the other person's list of qualifications, and then you hire someone. And then you say, now prove that we made the right choice because you have these qualifications. But what what you're saying and what I agree with is any new person has to fit in the organization.
Derek:And there's a bunch of people there, and maybe they've got most of it figured out, in which case the outsider has to has to merge into that and add value, which is a little bit different than I'm gonna shake everything up.
Lisa:Well and I think it's it's interesting because, you know, one of the things they say as they're going through this interview process is, well, let's see if this person's the right culture fit. Right? And, I mean, we're not all the right culture fit for different cultures.
Derek:Yeah.
Lisa:And as I said to you, my first conversation with you is that one of the things I said going in to this new job search was, here's my boundaries. This is the culture I'm looking for. I'm not going to try to fit into somebody else's culture again. Like I know myself well enough to know at this point in my career, the kind of people I wanna work with, the kind of environment I wanna be in, the kind of mentality I want the team to have. And it's not just it's not just about, like, being nice.
Lisa:You know, we have to we have to make tough decisions. That still happens. You know, I've I've had to make a lot of hard decisions since I've been here, and it's not all felt all warm and fuzzy and great. But, again, I go back to like, okay. So we have some frameworks on another framework or tools called the three a plus and the three a plus is a way that we can use to kind of measure our effectiveness.
Lisa:And this is again, something that we were talking about last week is like we're we should be doing this every single month and the the three plus, it's the the three. You can be a one, two, or a three. So a one means that you're not effective at performing in your role. A two means and and that you probably don't have the skills to do it. A two means you have the potential to to do your role at the highest possible level, but you still just there's things that you need to improve upon.
Lisa:And the three is that, you know, you're fully capable. You're doing it, the way it should be done, the way that it's expected to be done. Right? And then you've got the the, a, b, or c. So that's how, sorry.
Lisa:So rate your impact on abilities to achieve your objectives as the a, b, and c. Sorry. And then the so there's kind of layers of that. Right? And it's also how you're impacting others then.
Lisa:And then, so the a, b, and c is like, I'm I might be a three, but I'm stepping on every single person's toes to get there. And I'm hard to work with and, you know, kind of manipulating the system or whatever it is or, you know, again, it's like this all costs mentality of like I can do my job, but this is the bubble I'm going to be in and I might be really good at these things, but get out of my way. And so, you know, then I'm impacting others. And so there's the grade on that. Right?
Lisa:And then there's a plus or minus. And it's like, am I putting the right effort into the right things or not. And that's the plus or minus. So when we start to look at this on a consistent basis, I mean, first of all, we're all speaking the same language. We all know how to talk about these things with each other.
Lisa:Makes it a lot easier if if someone's not performing at a three, we can talk about, well, this is what needs to happen. And we're having this constant dialogue. It's not, hey. At the end of the year, you know what? You're not gonna get your bonus because that or, you know, we're having layoffs.
Lisa:We decided to cut you because you're not doing your job the way we want you to do it. So you didn't make the cut. Right? It's like this come this conversation's a constant flow, and we're all in this together, and we all know what these things mean. And, you know, if you're one in this role and you're just truly not capable of doing what's needed to be done, like, truly, hopefully, that's determined before you're hired.
Lisa:Right? But let's say you're growing company. Your role's changed. You've been asked to take on something new. Right?
Lisa:At least now there's this framework and a way to talk about this where it it's this is the role and this is the expectation. And let's rate this together. Let's talk about this and give you a chance to, you know, give input to and also give you a chance to go talk to other teams and other people that you work with to understand how you're impacting them so that you're proactively now basically in control of your own destiny, and the onus is on you to fill out that form every month. Have that conversations with the other teams, have the conversations with your manager self reflect. So, again, there's tons of tools like this.
Lisa:But this is the kind of stuff that we just use in the flow of our business that we're also, you know, teaching our accounts how to use and makes a big difference.
Derek:So to we reflect that back, there's a a measure of doing the job. There's a measure of how you treat other people, how you work with other people in doing the job, and then whether your efforts in the right direction or not. Is there is there
Lisa:is there Yes. So your capability, right Yeah. To do the job, one, two, or three. Three is the best. One is not capable.
Lisa:And then your impact on others' ability to achieve their objectives as the a, b, or c. And then the rating your effort and are you putting your effort into the right places? So let's say or two, you need to really work on understanding your copywriter. You need to work on understanding the work better in order to effectively write blogs, which is one of your jobs. Well, we could identify that there's these things that you need to be doing to learn the work.
Lisa:And some of it might be going to the training. Some of it might be interviewing and asking questions of people or learning. Some of it might be reviewing the red lines that get put into the materials when you're getting things fixed. And, you know, I've worked with a lot of people over time where it's like, oh, I did all this stuff, and I I read this book you mentioned once, and I listened to all these sales calls, and I did it that. And it's like, well, did you read and look at the red lines and the notes and all the things I marked up?
Lisa:No. I just accepted all your changes. Well, you know, it's like okay. That your effort is not in the right place. Let's shift your focus to the these are the best ways you can learn how to do these things.
Derek:K. I like I like that a lot. I used to work with a lot of engineers and scientists, and they would wanna know if the one, two, three, and a, b, c are equal weighting or what the weighting was, and they want a number that comes out of that. It's not quite like that, is it?
Lisa:Well, it's not, but it you know, honestly, it comes down to, like, if somebody is a one and they're just really not capable of the role doing the work, then they're gonna have a negative impact Right. You know, on everybody. And so, you know, all the correlation of data. Right. Yeah.
Lisa:You wanna get people to a three a plus, and if you just, after time, see that there is no way this person is ever going to be able to achieve that. That's when the converse you know, and it is there's some gray in this. This is you know, I get it. But
Derek:I gotta tell you, I have, I have no problem. It's hard, but I have no problem helping people find opportunities outside the organization. The way I look at it is that the employee employer relationship has to be win win. And if it's not working And
Lisa:this is something we talk about too. Right? You see people as people, then if it's not working for you and and they're impacting everyone else negatively, you've gotta think. They must be pretty miserable.
Derek:Yeah.
Lisa:Right? It can't feel good to show up to work every day if, you know, after over time, it becomes pretty clear you're not cut out for what your your role is. Then, I mean, I'm with you. I've helped other people find new roles too, and that's happened to me before. And, ultimately, it was a win win moving into a different position.
Lisa:Absolutely. You know? So So Yeah.
Derek:So I wanna take us back. I don't know where, but this thing this stuck out is that conversation you're having with other people. This is what I do. This is what you do. How can I help you do what you do?
Derek:And and go through that, process of understanding each other. At some point, you talked about the objectives of the organization, and I find that one of the best indicators of kind of getting people lined up is that they agree on and identify with the purpose of the organization. And especially if they can get above the purpose of their department or their division, and there's only one purpose in the whole organization. Is that, is that your experience as well? Can you can you get a good relationship and not be united in purpose, I guess?
Lisa:I'm gonna say, especially in a work environment, but, I mean, even in most of my personal relationships, I would say no. I think it's very hard, to if you have a different objectives and different values and mission and you're you're going in different directions, if you're not kinda working towards the same North Star, that's pretty hard.
Derek:So, in some of the work that I do, and and it's consistent with the, like, you know, concepts of essential dynamics, let's get really clear on the purpose. And if and if we don't have that, we're gonna be really frustrated in all the other things that we do. I find that there are organizations that they they have a purpose that no one identifies with. They have a purpose that people don't understand. They have a stated purpose, but the other purpose, or the second, you know, the hidden agenda is probably stronger.
Derek:All of those things get in the way of this kind of, you know, two people figuring, something out in terms of, working together as people with different approaches. Yeah. I wanna talk about sort of practical outward mindset. So you're talking about tools, which which is great. Sometimes we we think about leadership different than we think about, you know, sort of those interactions we have with our peers, people to people.
Derek:And one of the things I found is, I did a study once of definitions of leadership. And I kind of, it kind of, it came down to the same elements as we use in essential dynamics. People, path, and purpose. And it was like a leader's job is to get the people down the path to accomplish the purpose. And a lot of time and it was stated in a bunch of different ways, but it really came down to that.
Derek:And a lot of time that get the people down the path, is despite what they want. It's, manipulation. It's defined as treating people as objects. If you have the outward mindset, what's the definition of leadership that, you know, makes more sense?
Lisa:I mean, that's a great question. I don't have, like, a typed definition of leadership, you know, based on specific outward mindset, you know, sitting here in front of me. But I would just say that one of part of our mission and purpose is this notion of helping leaders create a people centric culture that's gonna drive these exceptional results. And, again, it goes back to if you don't if people don't feel included and, like, they belong and that they have a a choice in in what they're doing and have their mind made up that they wanna be a part of it, it's not gonna be sustainable. You're not gonna achieve those objectives with them.
Lisa:Right? And so the whole, again, premise of all of this is that this outward mindset creates an environment where people are at the center of your culture, and we're we're working together to drive towards those exceptional goals and results together. And, you know, that's it. And I've I've read something a while ago. It's like, you know, leadership isn't about getting people, like telling people what to do or getting people to follow you.
Lisa:It it is when people willingly want to follow you, that's when you've become a good leader. And so I I think if you think about things that way and that difference, I think that kind of sets the tone for what we're trying to accomplish.
Derek:Absolutely. I was I was going through my notes or my highlights on my on my my Kindle account for leadership and self deception, and I highlighted one phrase, which was, just the end of a sentence, but it was where our purpose of the organization in the story was to achieve results together. And, I flipped that into my language. Achieve results together is achieve is the path, results is the purpose, and together is people. There isn't anything else.
Derek:And achieve results together is a is more of a judgment statement, which is we're going to work together to achieve the results. And either these other statements about leadership, or we're gonna get the people to do what we want them to do to get the results that we want. It's it maybe it sounds similar, but, you know
Lisa:Yeah. No. It it is very different. And, I mean, I would I would hope that your audience here would would appreciate that difference. Right?
Lisa:We all know what it feels like to be told this is what you have to do, and this is how you're gonna do it. And that feels very different than this is what we're trying to achieve. How can you help us get there?
Derek:And my my study, both reading and experience about motivation is there's only one kind of motivation, which is comes from the inside, and and people wanna be a part of something. They wanna choose something, and they and you tap into that, you've got everything. If you don't have that, you've got a vending machine. If you don't put enough nickels in, you don't get what you want. If you do put enough nickels in, you'll get the minimum.
Lisa:Even that's temporary. I mean, look at the great resignation. Right? I mean Yeah. People have gotten to a point where it doesn't matter how much you're paying them or not paying them, whatever.
Lisa:We've been doing a lot of research recently around this, and it's like, why are people quitting? It's, you know, some of it's pay and some of it's not feeling like they're making enough money or or this or that or the other thing. But the biggest thing is disrespectfulness not being treated with dignity on ethical behavior and lack of integrity in the workplace. Managers treating their employees like objects and and it abusively failure to promote people based on, you know, not looking at DEI and and those types of, you know, using those things as excuses
Derek:Mhmm.
Lisa:And then feeling of extreme like, feeling like you're being undermined by your coworkers.
Derek:Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa:Those are the top five most toxic and number one you know, five things that people are running into of why they're leaving these toxic culture some pieces.
Derek:So I I believe that, leaders of organizations who adopt this mindset, whether they know it's, you know, consistent with Arben with what Arbinger is teaching or not, or if they these are these are, like, just foundational principles. Leaders can accomplish a lot in changing the culture of organizations. Individuals who aren't leaders in their own space, I believe, can also have a big impact. And I also believe it's the only way to live, and it's it's despite the fact that it seems hard to care about what other people think, it's an easier way to live than to calculate all of the transactions that you have to do to work your way through life and not care about what people think. Is is that calculus correct?
Lisa:And kinda gets into some other, I guess, areas that, you know, I don't know, that aren't totally addressed by Erbanger's work or, like, I've I've done a lot of work too on it on personally being less concerned about what other people think of me. Right? And this goes back to the, like, I need to be seen as this, this, and this. But I think it's more important to to have that self worth and understand your strengths and weaknesses and how you fit into the equation. You know, otherwise, I feel like that it just it brings you back into that box.
Lisa:When you're looking at it from a place of, well, what are other people gonna think of me? Then you're it's back to the self centric point of view again.
Derek:And and the and the the paradox is if you can let go of that and adopt the the mindset that you're talking about, your life gets better and it gets simpler despite the fact you might be in an organization that doesn't espouse all that universally.
Lisa:Well and I'll say too is a journey. I mean, I didn't just read the book and start working here and then all of a sudden stop caring what other people think. But understanding these concepts and starting to see them in play in context with other people who understand these concepts, it is life changing. And a lot of the people I've talked to that work here had experiences where their organization brought Arbinger in, and it changed the game. And it changed their life, and that's why they're here.
Lisa:They wanna do that. And I've also talked to other people who are are here now that I mean, one of them was in the CIA, and he had he had to, like, take people off-site to do the Arbinger work with them, but his team started performing, like, so much better than all the other teams that it stood out. And then the leadership team is coming to him saying, what's your secret? What's going on here? Yeah.
Lisa:And they move into another team, and it wasn't performing. Right? And then he started doing this work with people and and all these miraculous results. Right? And it's like, wow, this stuff really works.
Lisa:But then there's other people who are like, oh, no. You're not gonna do that here. And I I really think it comes back to this. Like, I need to be seen as better than. And if, you know, this happens, then, like, I'm not going to look as good as I do today.
Lisa:And so that, you know, you run into it, like, every place, everywhere, you're still gonna always run into to challenges. We're human, and everybody has their baggage and their, you know, different things that they bring to the table. And, you know, it it takes a long time to, like, work through this stuff.
Derek:Well, I I think one of the things that I learned from from the books is is it's good to get out of the box and do it as much as you can and go easy in yourself when you find yourself back in the box. Just get back out of the box. Right. Get back in the game. Do it again.
Lisa:I mean Yeah. Every morning now, it's like a check. Right? And then 10 times during the day, and then a day gets away from you. And there's days where I'm like, oh my gosh.
Lisa:Like, what even happened to this day? I who am I? Like, this is you know? So, like, it's easier said than done, but sure does make a difference when you can approach things from a place where you see other people as people and are thinking about the impact you have on them. If you can just start there.
Lisa:I mean, I already like, for me, it's it's just night and day about even how I think about things, and it's certainly made a big difference.
Derek:Alright. Well well, Lisa, thanks very much. What you just said is gonna be one of the quotations that we highlight for sure. And there'll be and there'll be lots. So I really appreciate you coming on the podcast today and for the work that you're doing.
Derek:Can you remind us how people can find, you and your organization?
Lisa:Yep. Arbinger is arbinger.com. So Arbinger.com. And then I'm on LinkedIn. That's my favorite channel.
Lisa:So LinkedIn backslash Lisa Sharapada, and, you know, I usually check messages every couple times a week or so as long as you're not spamming me.
Derek:Well, thank you for thanking you for check thank you for checking mine because that's how we connected. So it's great to have you on. So Essential Dynamics podcast is brought to you by Unconstrained, the consultancy that helps leaders work through their trippy trickiest opportunities, and you can find us at getunconstrained.com. I'd like to thank Brynn Griffiths for his help in the studio, and until next time, consider your quest.