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The only Cardinals podcast dumber than running on Yadi. A weekly podcast mostly about the St. Louis Cardinals.
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[00:00:00]
Nate: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Talking About Birds, the only Cardinal podcast that, like Andrés Galarraga, had more success after leaving St. Louis for Denver. My name is Nate Heininger, and I am joined by my co-host, Ben Somorka
ben: I like that. That was, that was well researched and thought out. That was, that was solid
Nate: If you have an idea for the opening bit, text or leave us a voicemail at 848-48-BIRDS. And thank you to the contributor who sent that in via text message. Uh, that was from a couple weeks ago. It is one I've been meaning to get into the show. Obviously shot straight at you, uh, who, um, you left St. Louis for Denver, like Andrés Galarraga.
Um, very low bar to [00:01:00] clear. You were, uh, you know, a bit of a shit show when you left, but would you say you've had more success in Denver, uh, than St. Louis?
ben: Um, what is success, you know?
Nate: You're doing this sh- I mean, let's think about it. We were actually doing the show when you left,
ben: Yeah
Nate: and then we took, like, an eight-year break, uh, maybe more than that, and then we started doing the show again. So in many ways, you're kind of right back. You're, you're still talking to me over some web app about the St.
Louis Cardinals, so
ben: water for 10 years.
Nate: yeah. Yeah
ben: Yeah, I'm, I'm okay with that. Um, my feelings aren't hurt, you know? It's, uh, it's fine. Everything's fine
Nate: Well, we know your,
ben: But there
Nate: you beco-
ben: there was a lot of, you know, you, you have to know where I'm fr- There's, I was impressed by that. That was, that was a decent one
Nate: Ben likes being included. So if you have a idea for an opening bit. I mean, it was actually, it was just a nice one. We, we [00:02:00] generally call for, um, almost all of our opening bits are insults to ourselves and, uh, insults about the show. And other than, you know, implying that you were not successful when you were in St.
Louis before, uh, it's overall just a nice opening bit about Ben, which I didn't like saying, but I have to respect the game. I mean, uh, what a, what a, what a pull there of connecting you to Andrés Galarraga
ben: Yeah. And I, I, I don't even think I remember that Andres Galarraga played for the Cardinals, so that, that made it even more fun. Um, but yeah, you know, yeah, it's like what is success? Was I... Am I more successful, um... Yeah, I, I, I was more successful at acquiring barbecue when I lived in Missouri than
Nate: Sure.
ben: Don't, not a lot of great barbecue out here in Colorado.
Nate: Air's too thin
ben: I am now more successful at being higher above sea level than I was back then,
Nate: You're more successful at being a, uh, complaining little bitch when you come to St. Louis about the [00:03:00] heat.
ben: Yeah. W- weren't you the one that was also complaining about the heat? Aren't you guys going through some type of heat wave or
Nate: I am complaining about it right now, but that's for a very different reason. So you, you challenged me to something. Sort of, I'd say a co-challenge. Like, I could have very easily said no. Um, but I also benefit from this sort of thing, so I, I jumped on board. We've talked about on the show for a while now, Ben and I both participate in running as a recreational exercise sort of thing.
We'll do, uh, 5Ks and h- you know, we've each done a handful of half-marathons over the last three or four years. Um, and I also s- I work better with a deadline, with something to hold myself accountable to. So last week, Ham Bone said, "What if we do a 30-day 5K challenge?" Meaning do a 5K every day for 30 days straight.
Um, which sounds as bad as it is, by the way. Like, uh... And I said sure, 'cause I also, like I said, I'm a masochist. Um, [00:04:00] and I did not realize that, uh, the, the upcoming was the, uh, like a real heat wave here in St. Louis, you know? Um, true humidity, just awful. It's awful here right now,
ben: Mm-hmm.
Nate: in the middle of the day,
ben: Yeah
Nate: which is exactly when I only have time to run.
ben: Yeah
Nate: I've been going out there and running. It- there are like... We're getting warnings like, "Don't go outside. Be, be c- careful." And I'm out there, you know? Like I had one of my worst times ever yesterday, uh, 'cause it's just so horrible out. So yes, I, I have been complaining about the heat too. But, uh, that is because I'm doing, uh, performance athletics in it,
ben: Sure.
Nate: not just, uh, drinking a, a Bud Light Apple or whatever you like.
ben: I do love a Bapple. Yeah, you know, it's, um, it, it's, it's, it- we're [00:05:00] spoiled here. It's today, right now it's 85 degrees outside. There's a cool breeze, uh, and we have, I think, 12% humidity. Um, I,
Nate: Yeah.
ben: I, I'm fine with being soft when I come back to St- I, uh, uh, it, it, you know, it, it's fine with me. It's, um, you've, you've chosen to live in a swamp town, um, so you know, you get what you, uh, you get what you get
Nate: Yeah. I mean, it's fair. I, it's, uh, it's almost like the more expensive places to live, uh, have better environments.
ben: Yeah, there, there is obviously
Nate: What's your mortgage though? What's your...
ben: yeah. We, we don't need to talk about that too much
Nate: Yes. Um, so we are both though, we, we've been doing it. We're seven days in. We're what, like 25% of the way done?
ben: Yeah, day seven. Uh, I do have a pretty interesting blister on my left foot that decided to pop this
Nate: Gross
ben: was running. Um, but I'm, I'm [00:06:00] enjoying it. I, I feel weirdly good. I'm, I'm shocked. I, I figured that I would be, like, puking in a corner or my legs would be crippled or something like that, but I'm f- I'm feeling weirdly good so far.
We'll, we'll see how it continues
Nate: Weird how consistent exercise just kind of makes you feel better.
ben: No. Um, I
Nate: Such bullshit. I know, wouldn't it?
ben: The, the fact that eating well and exercising actually works is horseshit
Nate: It drives me crazy. And I b- I'm also fighting it because I have, I'm, I'm, I've got here a giant bag of Hi-Chew that I bought the other day. Um, you know, I'm justifying it. Like, I'm, I'm running a lot, you know, I need to keep those carbs up. So I'm, I'm just, just crushing these Hi-Chews. And, you know, I love an individually wrapped item,
ben: "Oh, I wanna produce as much
Nate: just make it as tra- just, just make it as shitty for everyone as possible. It's annoying for me to open, and then it's just little, um, guys everywhere.
ben: Yeah
Nate: but this is the Fantasy, [00:07:00] uh, Hi-Chew.
ben: Sounds
Nate: they've, like, blended a couple flavors together.
ben: I bet they did.
Nate: yeah.
ben: Sick perverts
Nate: You know we're following the Hi-Chew beat pretty heavily here on the show ever since Wilson Contreras. Uh, have you had a... There's a Hi-Chew premium somewhere out there. I was looking for them the other day, I couldn't find them. But apparently, you know, it's a premium Hi-Chew experience.
ben: am now on the hunt though, consider that.
Nate: It's like...
ben: that is, that is interesting
Nate: Let me know if you find some.
I almost bought some Shaq Snacks the other day,
ben: Ooh
Nate: but they were, like, um, green apple or something like that. Not, not a, uh, not a preferred, uh, candy flavor for me
ben: I feel like Shaq doesn't have a great, um, reputation when it
Nate: Quality,
ben: name on food.
Nate: control. Yeah.
ben: Yeah
Nate: definitely taking the more is more approach of just like, "I'm just gonna put my name on everything, and you decide if [00:08:00] it's good or not."
ben: Right. But
Nate: Yeah.
ben: him money to do that, so
Nate: He's a likable guy.
ben: is he
Nate: I s- I don't know. I have a collection of over 300 of his basketball cards in my,
ben: That's very
Nate: n-
ben: Nate. That's very, very cool
Nate: Thank you. I do, I think it's cool too.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: definitely a cool thing that cool people do, carry around childhood collections of
ben: yep, hopping on that same bandwagon. I agree
Nate: What's your favorite candy flavor?
ben: Any flavor?
Nate: Yeah. You know, you, uh, we- we'll keep it simple. Like, you're, you're, you're pulling a, you're rolling a pack of Starburst or something like that. Like, you've got your traditional colors, you know?
ben: Yeah, pro- prob- across all candies, um, I'm not saying that this is my favorite individual, but, like, across all candies, I'm always gonna like orange. Give me that
Nate: Interesting. Okay. Yeah
ben: Starburst, good. Orange Skittles, good. Orange soda, good. All that.
Nate: True.
ben: Runts, [00:09:00] good
Nate: I have some orange soda in the fridge. I got, um, I al- I almost never am an impulse buy guy, uh, but I bought the, uh, Fallout Nuka-Cola, uh, Jones Soda crossover, uh, pack that they were selling at, um, at Costco. If you're a, if you're a Fallout fan, you, you know what I'm talking about. And, uh, they did a, uh, crossover with Jones Soda, which I like, and it had some orange soda in there, so I got...
I love a good...
ben: I love orange soda
Nate: Yeah. Who loves orange soda?
ben: Cal loves orange soda. what you wanted?
Nate: yeah, so I didn't really want it, but we
ben: Yeah.
Nate: were circling it anyway for... I mean, we know most of our listeners, uh, they prob- most of them probably know what we're referencing there, um, as we just slowly age and decay. Um, I think red is my favorite answer, or my fav- my favorite answer, my favorite flavor there
ben: Red is not a flavor, my friend[00:10:00]
Nate: Well, sure, but orange is...
ben: if it's straw- now or- orange is a color, but it is obviously a fruit as well, you
Nate: Yeah, all right. Ch- ch- I don't get it. Um,
ben: Yeah, it's
Nate: grape.
ben: Okay All right
Nate: gra- Let's, all right, let's move on. This is good. We're, we're having, we're having fun here, folks. Um, well, should we talk about the Cardinals? Or do you wanna, you got any other dumb stuff you wanna talk about?
ben: I got my, I got a, uh, one of those lemons races this week, and we'll see if I
Nate: Oh, you do?
ben: Yeah.
Nate: didn't realize. Um, what's your theme?
ben: We kinda don't have a theme. We're kind of doing... We, uh, we've had some car issues.
Nate: Okay
ben: we're, we're trying to dress, uh, a- and behave in the style of Gen Z kids. so it's a bunch of, like, late 30s, early 40s. Uh, you should see the outfit
Nate: cringiest [00:11:00] possible decision you guys could have made
ben: That's kind of the whole point. Um,
Nate: So that's why you were asking for Gen Z music though the other day
ben: Yeah.
Nate: a, in a group chat.
ben: Building a playlist, yep.
Nate: Yeah
ben: Yeah, so I have all my Y2K gear. Uh, I'll, I'll post some photos on, in the Birds cord. Um, it's, it's pretty bad. It's really bad
Nate: There's no good out- like your, the best version of that outcome is deeply annoying. You know what I mean?
ben: that's what we are going for. We're,
Nate: Yeah.
ben: to be annoying.
Nate: Okay.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: you're aware.
ben: Yeah, yeah.
Nate: Not, and I'm not saying Gen Z is annoying. I'm saying people dressing, uh, like, like Gen Z is annoying.
ben: Yeah, yeah. This is a, this is a half-assed, half-baked, very slapped together theme. but I think we can, we can be annoying and, and bring it home, and that's, that's really what this is all
Nate: I think most of our listeners would agree.
ben: Yeah
Nate: well, good luck. I hope that your engine doesn't explode and [00:12:00] fire a piston at you again or whatever. Um, you know, we're all hoping that doesn't happen.
ben: Me too. Really crossing my fingers on that one
Nate: you'll have to let us know how it goes next week. Um, all right, let's talk about your St. Louis Cardinals.
It's so funny riding the wave that we do, you know? The week over week n-
ben: was so down. Every- oh, everybody was like, "Sell the... Oh, we're done." And
Nate: S- sell the team.
ben: "Sell the team.
Nate: Do...
ben: guy, trade
Nate: Yeah
ben: We should do a blood sacrifice. It's the only way that we could pull..." And guess what? You just had to be a little patient. And who told you it was gonna be fine?
That's right, this podcast right
Nate: Yeah, that's right. Come on, get out. Get 'em, Vin. Get 'em.
ben: Did we?
Nate: I don't know.
ben: take last week. I feel like we were probably, like, exercise patience though
Nate: the, the benefit of, uh, uh, my brain is that I forget everything I say within about a half an hour of saying it. So I think our take on, uh, last week was [00:13:00] basically, uh, this team was always destined to have some struggles, so don't be surprised when there are periods of, of bad play.
Um, this entire season has been playing above expectation, so we have to be realistic and assume at some point these kids are gonna slump and things are gonna break. Like, I think we were saying sequencing was very lucky for a little while, and then sequencing was quite unlucky over that period. Um, and here- and then here we are.
ben: Yeah
Nate: the, the Cardinals have won five in a row. They are 36 and 28. I believe the high water mark of the season has been nine games above .500. Um, and so we are one away from that, uh, after a, um, humiliating defeat of the New York Mets as they continue to, um, you know, make us all, make us all proud.
ben: What a club. They are,
Nate: yeah.
ben: Yeah. They're[00:14:00]
Nate: Yeah.
ben: And I, I expect to win, uh, you know, we're recording on Wednesday. I expect to win the game this evening too, with just the offense kind of taking over and punishing the Mets, um, and the Mets not really showing up. I, I feel good about our position to keep smashing these, these Mets
Nate: yeah, we'll talk about Nootbaar here in a moment, but, um, it, it's exactly what we were saying. It's amazing how much better this lineup looks with him in there, and just pushing everything down. And, and with, uh, Walker and Burley and all these guys, you're like, this is, this is a legit... Like, the top five of the lineup is, is very legit, and even the bottom of it is not ideal.
We'll talk about that some more. But, you know, th- they- they're... The bench is working. Like, there's a lot working on the offense side, and the pitching just has to be okay for this version of the team to be successful, and it has been. So, why don't we get into some of the details, uh, from the last week. [00:15:00] Um, the offense has certainly been fueled by Jordan Walker and Alec Burleson.
Um, starting with Walker, you know, we had during that last period, he had a striking out a ton. I think we had, at one point, he had seven strikeouts in a row. Um, and then we... I th- it's, I think it's enough to call it a pattern now. We start to see it. He starts to hit, make better contact. That usually shows itself in the form of screaming singles.
Uh, screaming singles. Sounds like a great Friday night. Um, you know, uh,
ben: I assume that's because you have showed up to the club with
Nate: yeah.
ben: to you and you're, you're finally
Nate: There's,
ben: your revenge
Nate: like, one positive way to interpret screaming singles, and everything else is, like, a real horror show. So I, I, I didn't like it when I said it, and I, I've, I... we're here [00:16:00] now.
ben: Oh, God.
Nate: but yeah. Yes, that's the one I was thinking of.
ben: Natey's revenge.
Nate: You shouldn't have said no to me in high school. Why are you all in this club?
ben: Oh, yikes
Nate: Uh, they'll see. They'll all see.
ben: I bet they will
Nate: Um, uh, so Jordan starts making better contact, starts hitting the ball hard. It's a little bit down, but he hits it so hard, he, he starts... You know, we had a couple of those three-hit games. Um, and then the power starts to follow. Um, and then that seems to be the cycle, you know?
It's... He's a, he's still a high strikeout guy. There's going to be periods of, uh, high strikeouts, but we've seen it enough times now, man. Like, again, I don't know what the real... Like, what will be the end of the day, like, sort of static [00:17:00] Jordan Walker that we can expect for, you know, the foreseeable future, but it's becoming more and more like he's gonna hit around 300, uh, with real power and it seem- it's just...
I mean, I'm still not over the excitement of it. I don't know that I'll ever be, you know? Um, but I've seen him bounce back enough now to think that the changes were not just... You know, he's probably never gonna be like the first two weeks of the season again, where he hit eight home runs in, in like 11 games or whatever.
ben: Sure.
Nate: what we've seen in the last two months, I mean, it's pretty great. So, uh, this, this week, you know, is really starting to solid- solidify that for me.
ben: Yeah, I, I think it's, it's more of the same. And I, I think that, you know, we talked about this a, a month or so ago, but I, I think that with the changes that he's made mechanically, uh, with what we see, um, as far as, like, the Statcast data and, uh, uh, the exit velocity data, the [00:18:00] bat path data, all of that stuff, we know that what he's done has made a real change to his game. Um, and then I think if you just watch the games like we do every night is the at-bats just look better. You can't argue that the at-bats are better. Even though the walk rate hasn't, like, shot up or anything like that, the, the strikeout rate is at a, it's at a level that you can survive. But you just-- It, it-- they, they look
Nate: Yeah
ben: They look like there's a plan. They look like he has a, a, a thought process of how guys are going to attack him, and then you take in those crazy Statcast numbers, and yeah, if you are, have the fastest swing in baseball, you make contact every once in a while, and your BABIP is gonna probably carry higher than anybody else in the league or, or most
Nate: and he's fast,
ben: And he's fast, so
Nate: So
ben: can
Nate: yeah
ben: those, uh, ground balls, or he can turn a single into a double or a double into a triple or whatever it might be. Um, yeah, I, I think that, um, you know-- By the way, he's still only 24. It's not like-- We're not, we're not [00:19:00] talking about a 28-year-old that figured it out.
He still hasn't even gotten, um, like, enough reps and, and come into his actual prime. So I think there's a lot of juice left to squeeze. And yeah, it'll, it'll, there will be some short fallow periods, but I, I think we are looking more and more like we might have a 30/30 season coming from Jordan Walker. Um, he's got 16 home runs, which is tied with his career high.
He's got 10 stolen bases, which is tied with a career high. We still have two-thirds of the season left, so even i- even if you take into account a, a low period as far as power is concerned, um, I, I think 30/30 is, is in the realm of possibility. And I think that, uh, you know, we got a, we got a little ar- all-star out there
Nate: I,
ben: field all of a sudden.
It's just,
Nate: that, you
ben: feel very good saying that.
Nate: yeah. Um, you know, All-Star specifically, um, you know, that is now becoming a topic of conversation. There's obviously no [00:20:00] doubt from a performance standpoint that Walker deserves to be on the All-Star team. Um, we'll see if he is good enough or if the breakout has burst into the general population enough for him to win the popularity con- uh, contest side of the whole thing.
And un- you know, the reality is, is, is almost all the best players in the NL are also outfielders. So he's got a lot to, uh, to overcome there from that standpoint, to like win the vote and be the starter. But I'm almost certain he'll be one of the first selected on the, uh, you know, as soon as there's, uh, dropouts and all that.
I, I think he will end up being an All-Star this year, which will be a lot of fun
ben: Yeah, and, and I think that's a good point to make is that he does have some pretty stiff competition especially, uh, specifically right field, not just the outfield. Corbin Carroll also exists. James Wood also exists. Like, there, there's Ronald Acuña Jr. exists. There are some, some big names
Nate: Yeah
ben: right [00:21:00] field. Um, but I still, I expect him to make the team. Um, you know, I, I think, uh, there's this aspect of like, uh, uh, I guess in baseball circles specifically, we have been hearing this name for a long time. He's about as famous as you can get without having popped, uh, uh, statistically, and now he's doing that. Um, I think he's probably got close to the best name recognition on the Cardinals outside of Nootbaar, and obviously he's an international superstar, so it's a
Nate: Yeah
ben: Um, but I hope he does. I think it'd be really fun. He should
Nate: Yeah, I think he will. I think he'll get chosen. I, I really think he will be one of the first picked when people start dropping out, you know? Now, whether he plays or whatever, we'll see. That is what it is. But I think he will. And then I assume, uh, it, you know, I like to think it'll be a run of many selections over the, over the coming years.
Um, we're, we're actually really, we're, we're like 20 games from the halfway [00:22:00] point, you know? Um, so I don't know that he's gonna get to 30/30. He has been more aggressive on the base paths lately, um, so maybe we'll get to that 30 stolen base, uh, number. But, um, either way, you know, the 30 home run marker sure seems, uh, you know, knock on wood here, um, but, you know, he, he's well above pace for that at least.
Uh, which is exciting.
ben: it, Nate. I'm, I'm saying it today,
Nate: Yeah
ben: June 10th. I, I think he's gonna make it to 30/30. But yeah, there's a lot of work to do. 20 stolen bases and 14 home runs is not easy
Nate: Right. That is a s- a good season in its own right by many players.
ben: Right
Nate: um, but I, it just goes to show you the, the, the complete change in expectations that two and a half months of really good baseball does to a player, where, like, "Can he get to 30/30?" is not a conversation I was expecting us to have, um, you know, in March.
ben: No
Nate: Didn't have that on my [00:23:00] 2026 bingo card.
ben: That's a good joke. I like that
Nate: Yeah, thanks. I made it myself. Um, also call out Burley, um, who's been an overall steady presence in the lineup. Um, but he just... You can see it. He just gets in these periods where he's just locked in, and it's like no one can throw a ball past this guy. Um, you know, he struggles with lefties still.
Um, but when he's on, it's like gotta be one of the most annoying guys to pitch to in baseball
ben: He can hit the high ball, he can hit the outside ball, he can turn. Um, I don't know if I've ever, I can ever remember a player being able to hit the high fastball out for a homer like
Nate: Yeah.
ben: when he's hot.
Nate: That one he had the other night, it looked... He's like swinging up, you know?
ben: It's
Nate: yeah
ben: wild how he can do it. Um, he, uh, is fun to watch and I just like watching Burley play baseball. He also has an over 1,100 OPS in June right now. Like,
Nate: Pretty good
ben: [00:24:00] it's, there are a lot of other good things happening for the Car- Cardinals during this five-game win streak and this little hot run that they're on right now, but watching Burley and Walker bash together has been really, really fun.
It's, they're two very different styles of hitter e- even though they're both super successful, like Burley obviously being a lefty, super contact oriented and Jordan being, um, a Greek god of baseball pounding.
Nate: Yeah
ben: but, uh, yeah, I think, you know, it, it should be, uh, e- even though there has been kind of those ups and downs to Burley's season, you know, if you look at the, uh, chart for the best first baseman in the National League right now, according to fWAR, goes Matt Olson, who is having a very nice year for
Nate: Yes.
ben: who are having a very nice season
Nate: Y- yes, they are
ben: just on fire right now. Freddie Freeman, heard of him. Uh, and then Alec Brinson is number three going by fWAR for first baseman right now. [00:25:00] He's above Michael Bush, he's above Bryce Harper, uh, he's above Sal Stewart and Andrew Vaughn and, uh, the, uh, uh, uh, of the month, TJ Rumfelt for, uh, your Colorado Rockies. Some, some big names.
Nate: Yeah
ben: he's doing stuff. Um, and I wonder, you know, m- he might be tagged for an all-star, uh, seat this, this summer too. I, I don't know. But watching those two guys swing at the same time has been a lot of fun. Since you and I last talked, they have a combined 19 hits. so they're just
kind of hitting everything all over the place all of the time.
It's, it's been really good.
Nate: Pretty good.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: Th- th- you, you just said hitting at the same time, and I was just thinking about, like, what if you had a left-handed batter and a right-handed batter up at the exact same time, and that was a, a version of the game? That'd be fun
ben: Um, I feel like they would break each other's wrists by swinging at the same... Well, you would [00:26:00] wa- If you're the pitcher, you throw such a meatball down the middle, both of them swing and then kill each other
Nate: Well, that would be part of the game is that, like, the two have to, like, who's gonna swing, you know?
ben: But yeah, you, uh, that's what I'm saying. If you tempt them too much though, they might accidentally self-destruct.
Nate: There you go.
ben: going into this
Nate: There you go. That'd be part of the game. Did they self-destruct?
ben: Alec Burleson, you take the top half of the zone. Walker, you take the bottom half of the zone.
Nate: we're game planning
ben: Okay, interesting
Nate: Yeah, so then the best pitch would be right down the middle so their bats connect and, uh, you know,
ben: Broken wrists.
Nate: yeah, chaos ensues.
ben: This is a good idea
Nate: That's a good idea. You know, on the show, we're not just talking about the game as it is. We're innovators. We're visionaries, you know? We're, we're seeing the future of the game.
ben: And if you out there, listener, didn't realize that, sorry
Nate: Sorry. Not sorry.
ben: Okay.[00:27:00]
Nate: all right, we're running down what's working. Um, we, we went a... We, we've talked about Dustin May a lot over the last couple weeks, as have most Cardinal fans. Uh, the heater continues. Um, I don't know if you saw this. It was reported by, um, Bob Nightengale, uh, you know, very well-regarded, always accurate reporter, everyone loves him, uh, that the Cardinals still intend to trade Dustin May and JoJo Romero, um, which is not surprising.
We've talked about it. Um, and with that in mind, it's like, let's enjoy the show while we have it. Uh, I, I do think trading him makes the most sense. There's arguments for other, but I think the most optimal thing is likely to trade him, so every good start we get out of him right now is both helping this fun winning team, but also increasing that value for what could be a pretty [00:28:00] seismic trade deadline for the Cardinals if Dustin May, JoJo, Stanek, all these guys continue to pitch like they have.
Um, the trade deadline is not what it used to be, you know, outside of the Athletics somehow getting Leo DeVries, um, at the deadline last year
ben: the right team feeling desperate in
Nate: I,
ben: you never know
Nate: yeah, and to be fair to that deal, like Mason Miller has been incredible. Uh, so they, they got,
ben: amazing
Nate: yeah, you know, they did get like years of control of m- maybe the best pitcher in baseball, at least in, in a single inning.
Um, but so the, the, the days of though like a, a, a starting pitcher rental getting you a true blue chip prospect is, uh, is a lot less likely now. Um, but I don't know, a package of May and JoJo going to a contender, like that is an [00:29:00] immediate boost. And they're, like you said, the Padres love slinging, uh, prospects and, and Dodgers have good prospects too.
Their pitching's always weird. They're not afraid to go all in. So you never know. Uh, you certainly, the, you wanna be in this spot though if you're gonna trade. Um, and it, it will be a bummer in the moment, especially if the Cardinals are still winning as far as that goes. But I do think it's likely almost regardless of record, the right thing for the Cardinals to do
ben: Yeah, I think it would-- I, I would love to have the story of Dustin May sticking around, signing an extension, leading the Cardinals on the charge to, uh, their new, uh, run of success. Uh, but the fact of the matter is, is that he's 28. He's signed for relatively cheap. Uh, the most innings he has ever thrown in a season other than last year, he's, he's coming up on that right now.
He hit 130 innings last year. [00:30:00] Um, he's sitting somewhere close to-- You said 72 innings p- thrown this year. That is the most, by a good margin, any other year outside of last year in the big league. So this guy's often injured. you've clearly helped him improve his game. Uh, his numbers, um, under the hood and, and kinda everywhere you look are, are really solid. Um, so I, I think flipping a guy that you signed for 12 and a half million for pretty much any player in any organization with a ton of control or a couple of players
Nate: Yeah
ben: just a, it's a boon for the team, and I think the Cardinals have shown an ability to find players throughout other teams' orgs that we can all be excited about. We talked about Joakim, uh, Fajardo, uh, a week or so ago. Like, even if you grab, you trade Dustin May, and you get a 19 or 20 y- uh, year old phenom pitcher that we're not gonna see for a few years, [00:31:00] that's a boon for the team, and that's
Nate: Yeah.
ben: that we need to do. Um,
Nate: But just
ben: lack week-- last week or the week previous.
We can always re-sign Dustin May
Nate: Yeah
ben: the season if, if you really want to. You wanna bring him back into the fold, and he wants to come back, but it-- You kinda have to do this deal. You kinda have to do the same deal with JoJo Romero. Ryan Stanek, obvious. Um, oh, you know, uh, if you can get, if you can get a top 100 prospect for some version of a package of these guys, that's the most amazing thing I, I've ever seen from a, a trade standpoint.
But if you can just go get some interesting players from other orgs for guys who are not a part of the future, um, you, you c- Yeah, you kinda have to. It'd be almost negligent to not
Nate: Yeah.
ben: out and be opportunistic. And we have no reason to think that Bloom and Lagoons are not going to do the, all of that anyways.
Nate: I know. I'm trying to think of, like, it certainly feels like there is some sort of number in the standings, in the record that would make you switch the [00:32:00] flip to like, "All right, never mind. We're, we're not necessarily gonna go all in, but we're not gonna sell. We're gonna let this play out and see where it goes."
You know? You're, you'll start to hear the language of, "We're going to reward this team by keeping it together." You
ben: I would think that that would have to come from ownership, because I would imagine that even with... O- other than specifically the play of, uh, Jordan Walker, who I do not think that the front office's projections had Jordan Walker putting up two and a half WAR at this point in the season and, and 16 homers. I would imagine that their preseason projections for their own players' performance have not adjusted all that much based on what we've seen. Um, and I would be very surprised if they would make an adjustment to their plan right now
Nate: Yeah
ben: shoot for a playoff opportunity, uh, and, and undercut the [00:33:00] future.
Nate: Well, Heim said as much himself.
ben: maybe, may- maybe making you think the other way
Nate: Haim said as much himself during the blogger event we reported on last week, basically saying like, "We're having a lot of fun right now, but we're nowhere near what we wanna be as an organization." Um, which I think is the right take. Um, we, you know, we want this team to be one that's competing for a World Series every year and not one that is hoping to run a hot hand into a wildcard spot, right?
ben: I am having so much fun watching the Cardinals play this year. I, I'm enjoying, uh, the turns through the rotation and everything like that, but I, I think most people watching this team that the performance of the pitching staff is kind of a tightrope walk this year. It, it's been better than I thought it was going to be.
Nate: Totally
ben: are 15th in, in, in MLB, uh, [00:34:00] in, uh, ERA right now. Um, but it, it, it's, it, it feels lucky. It do- It, it feels like it could implode. It feels like y- you know, we have a, a pretty, um, substantial part of this team relying on Dustin May not falling apart,
Nate: Right.
ben: and
Nate: Yeah.
ben: done that before.
Nate: Right.
ben: but
Nate: the only thing I'll add, this has been discussed in the Birds Score, shout out Birds Score, is that the Cardinals have a very soft schedule for the next month also. Um, so if they continue to play well, you know, it, it will be a tough pill to swallow, I think, for a, a good fan base, a fan base that generally understands the situation, to see the Cardinals maybe sell if they are 10 to 12 games over .500 , you know what I mean?
Um, now again, I'm not saying they shouldn't do that, but I don't [00:35:00] think with the, with the strength of schedule coming up and the quality of play that we've seen now consistently, like 60 games into the season, more than 60, 65 or whatever, they could be around that level, and then that's the tou- that's tough
ben: and ownership might step in at that
Nate: Yeah.
ben: say, "I know, I know, I know. We're not trading Dustin May."
Nate: Yeah
ben: not trading Dustin May is not going to ruin the, the ascension of the young Cardinals. That one trade is not going to break them. It is not taking advantage of an opportunistic moment though.
Nate: Yeah.
ben: but it would not ruin the, the rebuild by any means.
Nate: Right
ben: I also, and I hear that and I agree with what the, The Bird Squad was talking about, like that's great, this, this soft, uh, run of teams that we're about to play. But I also see a scenario where, uh, Kyle Leahy and Palante and McGreevy and Liberatore make those teams look pretty good against them.
Nate: Yeah.
ben: want [00:36:00] that to happen.
I don't think it's going to happen, but it is a card that is available to be drawn. Like
Nate: Yeah
ben: that one hun- like we know that all f- four of those guys could just trend the wrong direction, and if they do that for a month, um, even a couple of them for a month, the team looks a lot worse. Like I,
Nate: Yeah
ben: n- I am very surprised at the performance that we're getting from specifically Leahy and, and Palante on a week-to-week basis.
It, it's been, even with Leahy getting punched around a bit, it's been better than I would've expected
Nate: Yeah. But Dobbins looked great, so may- you know, like
ben: That's another thing about the, the May trade. You trade May, you call in Dobbins. I'm not
Nate: Dabbins now.
ben: but
Nate: Yeah
ben: I feel pretty good about Hunter Dobbins taking a Major League start
Nate: Yeah, well let's talk about it. We, he came in, uh, uh, to piggyback off of a, a rough Leahy start and gave five innings. Looked good all the way through. I'm, I'm excited. He's, he's [00:37:00] getting a start. Looks like the team is doing a six-man rotation. Um, and I think that makes sense, but I don't think it's the long term.
It'll be May is gone and he takes that spot, or, you know, maybe these piggybacks of Leahy, it ends up, you know, he takes Leahy's spot or something like that. Um, but yeah, what, what, what did you see out of, of Dobbins in the, in the five innings?
ben: I really like watching him pitch.
Nate: Yeah
ben: it's, it's fun. I think the breaking stuff is really good. I think the, uh, the sinker, uh, slider, curve ball, those three pitches working together are great. I can't believe how much life he has on everything.
Nate: Yeah
ben: the fastball's harder and the sinker moves more. Slider in particular moves more, has more bite than I expected it to. Um, there's also, I like his mound presence. I just like watching. He, he seems, um, to pitch a little angry or a little [00:38:00] intense or like there's... I'm not saying he's Max Scherzer, but there's a little bit of that, uh, attitude in it. But he is not making mistakes. Um, his pitches are nasty. I mean, the, the results speak for himself.
I mean, he's, he's made three appearances and they've all been basically almost perfect. Um,
Nate: Yeah
ben: so I think it's great. Um, think about like what the Cardinals traded to get this guy who we have a ton of control on. It's very, very exciting. He's 26. He's old for a prospect. It's kind of like, I, obviously I haven't been following Hunter Dobbins his entire career.
It's, I'm, uh, kind of surprised he is only now having this all come together, but that's sometimes how prospects work out, and it's, it's really benefiting the Cardinals. I, I'm a huge fan. Um, he's gonna get punched in the mouth here soon at some point. Uh, but so far it's great
Nate: he is a guy that had some prospect heat when he w- you know, a couple years ago. So I think when he was around 23, 24, when [00:39:00] he started to blow up, um, from a prospect standpoint, um, people knew who he was if you're in that, in those sorts of circles, and the Red Sox were, are very excited about him.
But then between injuries and lack of opportunity and, and some effectiveness, you know, it's kind of a standard pitching thing. You know, you could argue we've seen that with Liberatore, you know, as a guy who's very highly regarded and just isn't putting it together or is hurt or whatever it may be. Um, and then now, 26, when he's in his physical prime, it's all coming together, you know?
It's like most pitchers aren't really good until they're in their mid-20s.
ben: Yeah
Nate: obviously the, the phenoms of the young 20-year-old pitchers, but most... You know, I, I don't know this for sure, but I wonder if you look at, like, the average age of, like, the most successful pitchers, it would be older than, like,
ben: Sure.
Nate: h- than hitters, you know?
ben: Yeah
Nate: know. Yeah
ben: Yeah. it's, uh, I'm very [00:40:00] excited for this start the, the day this episode comes out. He's gonna be starting against the Mets. Seems like he's just, like you said, a part of the rotation for the time being. I think that my guess is they'll do a turn or two of the six-man rotation, and then a change is gonna happen.
Nate: Yeah
ben: whether it's to protect an arm, whether it's due to ineffectiveness, whether it's due to a trade. I, I would be shocked if a trade happened this early, but for, for one reason or another, my bet is that they do a couple turns of this six-man rotation. Hunter Dobbins keeps his spot because he's performing well, and then somebody who maybe isn't doing as well goes to Triple-A or, or moves to the bullpen or, or some combination of all that.
I don't know
Nate: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and as we get closer and closer to, uh, July and trade talk starts happening more and more, you know, you could see this world where, okay, like JoJo gets traded and that puts Leahy into the bullpen, [00:41:00] and then Dobbins moves to that spot or something like that. Just as you start to remove these guys on the one-year contract, all these spots open up a lot more
ben: it's so funny. Like, we've talked about this a few times this season. Previously, I, I would've feel like I could've predicted how the front office was gonna handle this situation. But with the moves that Bloom's front office has made, uh, this season, I don't really know what to ex- like, how they're prioritizing, uh, when they wanna make the move, how aggressive they're going to be. Um, it's been interesting. So m-
Nate: Yeah.
ben: I'm digging it
Nate: Well, let's talk about the bench a little bit, which, uh, for the first part of the season was basically a non-discussion. It was Pozo and he never played. Um, and now we're seeing, uh, Fermín, Velázquez, and Torres have really seemed to have currently at least locked in that sort of bench bat, versatile [00:42:00] role.
I wouldn't necessarily call Velázquez versatile, but he's certainly a bench bat. Um, it, it's looking like a pretty good bench. You know, this offense, it's really keeping this offense going.
ben: Yeah, I, I think that, you know, uh, big caveat, Velasquez has only had 20 plate appearances in the bigs
Nate: Sure.
ben: but he is rocking a 202 WRC+,
Nate: Pretty good
ben: you do that for any number of at bats or, or plate appearances, and you're not gonna be mad about that. Um, yeah, and I think, you know, we've seen Fermin. He's gotten hot recently over the past, uh, like in, in June at the very least, and maybe a little bit before that he started to hit. Uh, he is actually going to be playing third base on Wednesday night for your St. Louis Cardinals. They're giving old Gourmie a day off of his feet. Um, you know, obviously I, I'm rooting for Fermin. I think we see a high quality at bat. Uh, we saw him start at short the other day, which is interesting. It, you know, didn't blow up or [00:43:00] anything like that, so everything went fine there. I'm happy
Nate: Great eye black. Do you like the,
ben: He's
Nate: you like the...
ben: yeah. Yeah, I think it's
Nate: You think it's, he looks like he's crying.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: supposed to be like a warrior thing, right?
ben: his mascara is running, and I think that that's nice. It's, it's very dramatic, and I appreciate it.
Nate: I, I'm sure that's what he thinks it looks like, is that his mascara is running
ben: well, we know he listens, so we'll see if he, if he changes, uh, for, uh, Thur- Thursday night's game.
Nate: I mean, I'm a c- I love The Cure, you know? So I can get behind some, you know, Running Mascara
ben: Uh, who, who know, he could be a goth. Who, nobody knows. You don't know what his inner life is like
Nate: I was behind a, uh, car the other day that had a, a license plate that just said Big Emo
ben: Big emo. Hmm. Pizza or emotional?
Nate: uh, emo like E-M-O. Yeah
ben: Um, too bad 'cause that coulda, coulda been great. Um, and then also, you know, we talked about this before, uh, [00:44:00] Sajec was sent down. I think, you know, just the quality of that bat that Brian Torres gives you is, is super high. Um, and you know, he's been kind of sort of starting kind of benching for a couple of weeks now, and I don't, again, I don't think he's gonna make an all-star team or he's gonna lift a job from anybody else, but I think he is a really solid, quality bench bat.
He's played second base a couple of times. Uh, he can play in the outfield. I kinda really like him
Nate: I know. it's
ben: guy that's a hard out. He's
Nate: fun. It's, it's another one of these like, ah, well, I, I didn't have this on my 2026 bingo card. Um, yeah, we'll see. There's a chance it gets overexposed, you know? But, um, certainly a more interesting bench bat than what we had seen recently, and seems more usable on this team
ben: Yeah. And I think, like, is a, a guy-- [00:45:00] And I, I, I like Sijacy. I don't think Sijacy's, like, career is over or anything like that. He'll, he'll figure it out, and I think he'll start hitting again. Um, he's a pretty toolsy guy. Uh, but having a guy that can come off the bench or spot start at second or left or right or whatever, put together three or four good at-bats or not look totally helpless, um, is a huge over what we were seeing. And it's just, like, more aesthetically pleasing also,
Nate: Totally
ben: not for nothing, in my opinion
Nate: Um, we also learned from the Birds score, which we keep talking about, he was a catcher at independent ball. So there you go. He's your, he's... Sorry, Pedro. He, Torres is your emergency catcher. Um, just makes sense
ben: Yeah. When, um, when Urias comes back, I know he just had a, a setback. I do wonder, um, you know, is, if all three of these guys are [00:46:00] hitting, is it gonna be Pedro? I don't know. Probably
Nate: know
ben: They like him, but he's not impacting the club as much as he used to pre Jimmy Crooks
Nate: Yeah. Well, the unfortunate reality too is, is it Gorman?
ben: Well, let's talk about it. What a... God. They
Nate: You know- Say your name and company.
ben: you, Nate, it's not enough
Nate: It's, uh, you know, when we, when we predicted that we were talking about range of outcomes for this season, um, you know, I, I, I was like, no one saw the Walker thing coming, of course, especially not like this.
ben: You know
I, I don't know if we said this last week, but even Bloom admitted, he was like, "We had no idea what was going to happen. We just liked the process behind the scenes."
Nate: Yeah
ben: the guys with all the information were, were surprised by this outcome
Nate: Yeah. Um, you know, for every, like, the, the [00:47:00] reality was that there was always going to be, when we looked at the guys that were, like, the big lottery tickets, the guys that we wanted to break out, um, I'm thinking Jordan Walker, Nolan Gorman, Victor Scott basically is who I have in my head for that sort of thing.
Um, you know, the unfortunate reality is is always gonna be the most likely thing is that none of them become All-Stars. Uh, and then the second most likely thing is, like, one of them breaks out and the other's down. Uh, the unfortunate reality is that seems to be the case right now. We were... Our monkey's paw of we've gotten the true Jordan Walker breakout has, uh, the trade-off, even though I know none of this makes sense, that they're all individual, uh, performances in their own right.
Um, seems to be that maybe Gorman and Scott are, uh, are on their way out. You know? We'll talk about Scott in a minute. I still think he could come back, but the body of work for Gorman, it's just, it's getting harder and harder. As, as, like, the chief Gorman, um, [00:48:00] like, marketing guy, I think for the last, like, year and a half, I'm, I'm, I'm having a harder and a harder and harder time to be like, "No, he's the guy," you know?
Um, w- you've got some numbers. You wanna run it, you wanna run us through these numbers?
ben: Yeah
so I w- I was just trying to, like, I, I was thinking, I, I, well, I was watching a Nolan Gorman at bat, and it was going poorly, and I was just thinking to myself, like, where does he rank i- in the league as far as, like, just strikeouts and, like, trying to figure out his quality of at bat and everything like that? And I, I found something interesting that I thought was worth bringing up on the podcast, and it's, it's Nolan Gorman focused. So, uh, of the top 10 qualified hitters in Major League Baseball this year, uh, uh, sorry, uh, the top 10 highest strikeout percentages, um, this year. Nolan Gorman maybe unsurprisingly finds himself in that group of players. Um, he is number nine with almost a [00:49:00] 32% K- K rate, which is obviously, uh, not that great. He also has a, a decent walk rate, 11%. Of, of these group of guys, he's basically, like, smack dab in the middle. But what I found really interesting is that out of those 10 guys, those 10 hitters, eight of them have a WRC+ above 100, meaning that d- I d- I think kinda defying conventional logic, these guys who are all striking out over 30% of the time, t- uh, eight of the 10 have a WRC+
Nate: Yeah
ben: 100.
Now, S- Spencer Torkelson only has a 101, uh, but that is above average. And if you're curious, Nolan Gorman's is at 72. Um, a- and really, so it's, it's Nolan Gorman and Adolis Garcia. You remember him. He's number six on the ranking with a 32 and a half percent strikeout rate on the season. Um, and I guess just if you're curious, you don't wanna look it up yourself, Garrett Mitchell is leading this for the [00:50:00] Brewers.
He has a 35.9, essentially a 36% strikeout rate with a 116 WRC+ and a BABIP that is not going to stick around for a while. So that, that will
Nate: Yeah.
ben: But looking at all this, yeah
Nate: you know what I, you know what it is I think, Hambone, is it's survivorship bias. Um, the on- so you said qualified hitters,
ben: Yes
Nate: So the only guys that are still in the league that are able, that have a strikeout rate this high are able to be productive above and beyond that strikeout rate.
And Adolis, Adolis is the only one, and he has a track record.
ben: Right
Nate: when they make contact, uh, they hit the ball really hard generally, and that has good... Yeah.
ben: hard. Exactly. So
Nate: Yeah
ben: this top-- this group of top 10, and really, if I'm just looking at the list, going all the way down to Nolan Gorman's isolated slugging [00:51:00] is 126, and if I'm going down, I have to go down to Brett Beatty at
Nate: Oof
ben: 24, uh, on the strikeout percentage hierarchy to get to somebody that has a lower isolated slugging. And, and that is really a stat that is just telling you how many extra base hits they're getting out of their overall production, and it kinda isolates it away from on-base percentage and that kind of thing. Uh, so all of these gu- you know, you look at Kyle Schwarber, a 329 isolated. O'Neill Cruz, 208. And like I said, Nolan Gorman, 126.
So
Nate: Yeah
ben: gotten, like you said, a ton of opportunity. he is surrounded by other guys who are swinging often, missing often, but slugging, and I think he has just proven over the 61 games this season that the slug is not consistent enough to show up, and you kinda have to be a Munetaka [00:52:00] Murakami or a Hunter Goodman or a Kyle Schwarber or an O'Neill Cruz type guy. it's only a s- a very small handful of players that can actually function like this, and maybe Nolan Gorman is not one of those players.
Nate: Unfortunately, we now have literally over 1,000 at-bats or plate appearances. What is it? Like, 1,300, 1,400 of Nolan Gorman, um, with the vast majority of it being unsuccessful. Um, there are streaks. We-- Three weeks ago, we were like, "Look out, here he comes." Uh, you know, we're talking at that ex-WOBA, and it's like we g- he got the worst version of it, is he got the underlying metrics, but he never got the surface stats, and then now the underlying metrics are falling down again, and the surface stats are still not there.
So we didn't even get the benefit of the, like, heater,
ben: Yeah
Nate: Gorman is capable of going on. I think, you know, he has made himself a, a serviceable third baseman, which has helped his overall value. Um, but I think the, the, the cold reality of it is that there's just [00:53:00] nobody else available. If there was, if there was some sort of hotshot third base prospect, um, I think he'd probably be here already.
Urias would maybe be the starter right now if he hadn't gotten hurt. Um, that probably isn't true, though, 'cause that's not, like, that's not all... I, I think the gambling, you'd rather just keep rolling Gorman out there and see if he, something finally happens than just playing your, your rental third baseman.
Um, but if there was, like, an actual third base prospect that was raking in, in, in the minors, I think we'd see him right now. Um, but there just really isn't. There's basically one offensive, uh, prospect right now that looks like maybe near ready for MLB, and he's an outfielder. So, um, yeah. So, uh,
ben: I'm
Nate: I think...
ben: never happen.
Nate: Yeah
ben: Um, players can always adjust and, and something may click,
Nate: we saw it with Walker.
ben: of
Nate: Yeah
ben: Um, and yeah, I, I just wonder [00:54:00] if a trip s- to the minors or, or some... something different would feel better for me. I don't know what it is exactly, and I'm not trying to prescribe anything, but doing something different I think might benefit everybody
Nate: Yeah. Um, having him be in the seven or eight hole though feels a lot better than, uh, you know, five or six like he was.
ben: that adjustment. Yes,
Nate: Yeah. Yeah. Um, all right, let's, uh, we've had a number of transactions over the last week as well. Um, many of them we've kind of already gotten to, but you know, first and foremost, Newt is finally back,
ben: Yeah
Nate: uh, man, he, I mean, it's Newt.
Who doesn't love it, you know? Uh, he, he said something interesting, uh, at the end of the first game, he was interviewed by the cat on the field, uh, and he was like, "This is the longest I've been on my feet in probably 12 months," or something like that, you know? And so it's like, man, he has really gone [00:55:00] through,
ben: Yeah
Nate: recovery.
But what he said was, "This is the first game, though, I've had in a very long time where it's ending and my feet don't hurt." So you're like, damn, like that's how bad it was, is that his feet hurt at the end of every game, you know? Um, that's like, that's not normal. I know it's a sport, but you know, their feet don't normally hurt after any, any one normal game.
So you can see what a dramatic improvement that must be for him. Um, so that's cool. He's doing what he does. Obviously, we're in a very small, very, very small sample size, but you can't be upset with his early results. So it's just good to have him back.
ben: Yeah
hit a homer. He's hit a couple of balls super hard already.
Nate: Yeah
ben: I think it's interesting that they slotted him into the fifth spot. Um, I, I think I would maybe argue to have him lead off just because is that nude and, uh, he's
Nate: Yeah
ben: and, and I like that idea. Um, but him kind of, uh, you know, they're continuing the left, right, left, right, uh, with him being after [00:56:00] Walker.
I don't have a ton of complaints about that. Um, and yeah, you know, you, you, we talked about this at the top of the episode, but you look and all the way one through six you feel really good about, and then you have, uh, Jimmy Crooks and Nathan Church who have some, you know, some ceiling to them that we don't really know yet.
But it's, it's a
Nate: Yeah.
ben: lineup all of a sudden.
Nate: Yeah, well, and, and like you get down to that, like if you're gonna have some positions that are defensive specialists with hopefully, uh, offensive upside, catcher and center field is kind of exactly where to,
ben: Yeah
Nate: know, where to do it. So if your eight and nine are your defensive specialist players who might get behind one every once in a while, you're like, "All right, let's do it," you know?
So I mean, I, I think center field is still, you know, open question. I think Josh Baez is gonna have something to say about our outfield, uh, mix here over the next few months. Um, but feeling pretty good with a Newt, [00:57:00] Church, Walker outfield, at least for the foreseeable future. I still have hope in Victor Scott.
Um, you know, but take me to church, baby. He's back.
ben: Yeah. Yeah, I, uh, uh, just to say it directly, Scott goes down to triple A, Nathan Church comes after, uh, up to the IL, and is essentially the starting center fielder going forward. Um, I think it makes sense. I, I'm
Nate: Yeah
ben: I, I think we see just a little stronger at-bats from Nathan Church, so obviously a little bit more pop, slight downgrade in center field, but nothing I'm worried about. And Victor Scott needs to work on something.
Nate: Yeah
ben: whether it's continuing the work he was doing at West Virginia in the off-season or, or something different, or moving his hands up or down or side to side, whatever it needs to be,
Nate: Wow. Gotta be one of those.
ben: should do it in triple A
Nate: Yeah
ben: at the big leagues.
I also... It has to be, it has to suck to carry that low of an [00:58:00] offense, offensive numbers in the majors, um, when you know. think Victor knows he is a, a Major League Baseball player. Like, that, that
Nate: Yeah.
ben: has to be difficult
Nate: I think you could see it sometimes just in his overall presence. Now, I'm not a big, like, narrative guy or, like, reading a guy, but there were times where he was walking up to the plate where it's just like he, he does not look happy to be there right now, you
ben: Yeah
Nate: and, um, so I'm hopeful he can go down and, and find some success again, and I, I suspect he'll get another shot at, at the center field job
ben: I think he's gonna be fine. I think he's gonna figure something out. Um, I think we'll see him again this season. I wish him the best of luck, I guess
Nate: All right. Well, uh, we mentioned it earlier, but this is kind of fun. Um, Ali Marmol, uh, has been named part of Dave Roberts', uh, coaching staff. Um, I caught something [00:59:00] that basically, like, you know, the Cardinals played really well against the Dodgers in that series earlier. Dave Roberts gets to be the manager because of the Dodgers last year, and he apparently was impressed by the Cardinals and by Marmol in that weekend series and helped make up his mind to ask Marmol to be a part of his coaching staff, which is fun
ben: Yeah. Um, Marmol haters, oh, you poor sons of bitches. No, I think it's great. I think, like, uh, I, I feel like we've been pretty pro-Ollie
Nate: Yeah
ben: a while. Re- really since he'd stopped screaming at the press in post-game interviews. Um,
Nate: was really only his first year. My, my, I think my take on Marmol had been summed up in there, he had never done anything other than in his very first taste of being a manager that warranted him losing his job. I think all of the failures of the Cardinals and h- in his, not his management, but his outcomes, has been that he was [01:00:00] provided a bad set of resources.
Um, and so I, we both thought it might happen just because it's not uncommon for new or regimes to come in and, and install their own guys and things like that. But that was the only reason I thought maybe Marmol would be gone. On a pure on-the-field standpoint, it, it would not have made sense to get rid of him.
He would've just walked into the starting, into a managerial role somewhere else in the league, you
ben: Yeah, I think so too
Nate: uh, so and it's, I mean, he's been great this year, you
ben: Yeah
Nate: I, I, I generally agree with his decisions. Everyone can nitpick an, any individual, leaving a guy in or, or whatever. Like, that's part of our f- that's part of our rights as a fan, you know?
But, like, generally I think his decision-making is consistent and the team is working well right now. Uh, and he's been provided a, a, a set of tools with clear expectations on how they're used, uh, and he's doing it, so what more could you want? And obviously they're [01:01:00] winning, so he gets picked to be an All-Star manager, which is fun
ben: Yeah, I think it's pretty cool. Um, I think I agree with everything you said. I have no complaints about Oly, especially this year. It is... You, you can see very clearly that him and Heim speak the same language. Seems like the players are having fun. Um, yeah, I mean, from an outside, it, it's one of those we never really know.
Nate: Yeah
ben: Marmol might be responsible for six wins on the year. He also might be responsible for minus two, two losses. Like, I really don't know what a manager impact and, like, what he's really doing. But he seems prepared. Players like him. Dave Roberts was impressed by him. I think Dave Roberts is a fine enough manager. Um, I'm pretty sure
Nate: Yeah.
ben: could manage the Dodgers to the
Nate: Yeah
ben: Series. Hey, Shohei, keep doing that, buddy.
Nate: Hey,
ben: Let
Nate: hey,
ben: out of your way.
Nate: Mookie, Free- Freddie, uh, Yamamoto, go out there and play well. Good.
ben: Yeah.[01:02:00]
Nate: good job playing well. I think I'm pretty good at this
ben: Yeah. Dave Roberts is gonna go to the Hall of Fame based on, you know, Andrew Friedman's, uh,
Nate: Yeah
ben: every good player. But, um, that's okay.
That's all good
Nate: He seems like a nice enough guy
ben: Sure, sure. Remember in the World Series when you stole that base?
Nate: Yeah?
ben: There you go. What
Nate: Wow. What else do you need? Um, all right, anything else you wanna talk about, Hambone, before we get to the, uh, second half of the show?
ben: Nah
Nate: All right. Uh, well, we are going to talk about the upcoming series, cover a little bit of league news, and then play a little game. But before we do that, we wanna remind our listeners that this show is listener supported on patreon.com.
You hear how you never heard any ads? That's cool. That's because this show is listener supported on patreon.com/talkingaboutbirds. If you want to support the show directly and the, the time and effort [01:03:00] we, effort we put into bringing it to you every single week, uh, we would love for you to check out the Patreon and consider subscribing.
Subscribers at every level, every paid level get access to the Bird scored. That's our private Discord server. We've talked about it a bunch on this show, but it's a great resource and a great place to hang while the Cardinals are playing well or not well. Um, we also appreciate anyone who takes the time to leave us a review on their favorite podcast platform, and of course, uh, make sure you're hitting that subscribe button if you're a new listener, and tell your friends, tell your family.
Uh, summer's heating up. People are starting to get into baseball who don't normally, or at least, you know, they kinda sit out the first half and this is when everyone else kinda comes in. It's a great time to share the show, uh, and, and, you know, help us grow the show. So Hambone, where else can people find us online?
ben: Yeah. Check us out on all the socials. We got a Bluesky, Instagram, and TikTok. You can watch this episode on if you'd [01:04:00] like to do that. Um, you can look at Nate and I looking at us looking at you on YouTube.
Nate: You see me seeing you?
ben: find all the podcast information, T-shirts, and more at talkingaboutbirds.com. You can email us at talkaboutbirds@gmail.com, and of course, you can call us and leave a voicemail or send us a text message to 848-48-BIRDS.
That's 848-482-4737
Nate: 848. 48 birds. I'm, and I've been, I've been putting it in the show notes, but I talked about it two weeks ago. If you're into daily word games, check out the game I made, Crossanym. It's at crossanym.com. Uh, all right, Hambone, we've got a, a couple series coming up, as you might expect. The Cardinals go to Minneapolis to play the Twins [01:05:00] What are you, what are you expecting to see out of this series?
The Twins have not been a particularly successful team this year
ben: No, I mean, you know, obviously they had the fire sale, uh, last year. Ownership is kind of in the wind. We'll see what happens there. Uh, and they have um, as a rule, failed to, uh, develop any of their high-end prospects into becoming good regulars for a long time. So you kind of just get a bad team. you know?
Like,
Nate: Yeah
ben: Brooks? Wasn't Brooks Lee supposed to be good? Wasn't Trevor Larnach supposed to be, like, the most powerful left-handed hitter of his draft class? Um, Austin Martin is kind of just slapping the ball around. Luke Keyshell is, everybody thought he was gonna have a really nice year,
Nate: He's been rough.
ben: a, a nice
Nate: Yeah
ben: Royce Lewis is now a utility infielder. Um, you know? Like, need, need I say more? It's [01:06:00] just all... Like, th- this is what, you know, you trade your guys that are worth something. You don't develop a single prospect to save your life. Um, a- and this, this is where you end up
Nate: Yeah. They ha- they still have Byron Buxton, who stays healthy and is one of the most dynamic players in the game. Um, but after that, yeah. Brooks Lee has been heating up a little bit. Um, as you mentioned, he was their, uh, he was the eighth overall selection in, in the 2022 draft, so was, uh, was quite, um, you know, highly touted.
Um, but yeah, it's over... I mean, they've got Josh Bell. You know, that every teams have been chasing that, chasing that dragon for five years now, and it just ke- continues to not work really anywhere. He's had some moments, don't get me wrong, but
ben: load-bearing Josh Bell. He's their number four hitter right
Nate: Yeah. You never want a load-bearing Josh Bell.
ben: I mean, if you're building a building and you have Josh Bell to be, like he's a big, strong man, but,
Nate: Sure.
ben: for your [01:07:00] offense,
Nate: No.
ben: no good
Nate: uh, let me see. Um, Cody Clemens has been better than you probably realize.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: so, you know, there's a few guys that can do some damage, but for the most part, this is a very, very beatable lineup. Um, and then from a starting pitching side, well, who, what's the, what are the match-ups? We can, we can go from there.
ben: Uh, we got on the Friday game Joe Ryan, who is, uh, their ace.
Nate: Yeah
ben: Joe Ryan against Kyle Leahy. Uh, on Saturday we have Connor
Nate: Prelip
ben: do you know? Okay, Prelip, who I have never heard of until this very moment, against Matthew Liberatore. Uh, and then on Sunday, Taj Bradley against Michael McGreevy
Nate: So we're, we're seeing their best, but Joe Ryan is a legitimately good starter.
ben: he's good, yes. He's
Nate: He,
ben: a minute
Nate: yeah, he is one of the better starting pitchers [01:08:00] in baseball. Again, low bar to clear, but if he was on the Cardinals, he'd be the best starter, and then there'd be, like, a couple steps down, and then, you know, maybe Dustin May is getting close to that.
But he's, he's good. Um, so that will be a, a tough matchup. Prelip is a, a rookie who, uh, has sort of burst onto the scene and is getting some respect, but is, you know, is brand new. Um, and then Taj Bradley, you probably know his name. He's been around for a while with varying degrees. You know, he's one of those guys that everybody has been chasing, um, because he can, he can suddenly strike out 12 people in a game.
Um, but he can also, uh, go one-third of an inning giving up seven runs, you know? Uh, which he's, he's basically done both of those for the Twins this year. Um, so you just don't know which version of Taj Bradley you're gonna get. So from a pitching standpoint, like, this will be, like, a relatively good, uh, like, even matchup.
I- if not, [01:09:00] uh, the Cardinals may be under, uh, you know, underwater a little bit. Um, but from an offensive standpoint, I don't think it's particularly close. So we'll see. Should be a good series for the Cardinals, though.
ben: And the Twins' bullpen has also not been great this season. Um, they, they kind of have, uh, holes all over the place. Uh, yeah, I, I the Cardinals are weirdly favored going into this, but it's, yeah, the, the offense is the big differentiator there
Nate: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so after that, the Padres come to St. Louis for three. Padres, what an interesting team. Tatis, uh, has hit a home run,
ben: Yep
Nate: so, you know, he's gotten that off of his back. Um, but it's just wild. Like, even if he just completely turns it on, he's now, like, is he gonna break 20 this year? You know, almost certainly no.
You know, he'd have to go completely buck wild in these [01:10:00] last three months. Um,
ben: he could do
Nate: he could do. He's hit 40 in a season, so you know. Um, but yeah, what are, what are you, what are you expecting from the Padres?
ben: what's so crazy is he still is hitting the ball extremely hard. Um, he has 20 barrels on the season. He has over 50% hard hit rate and somehow only has one home run. It,
Nate: So the theory, and I've,
ben: sense
Nate: I haven't looked at the numbers myself, but I, I saw or read something that is basically it's attack angle. It's the same thing that Jordan Walker dealt with. You know? It's like he's hitting the ball really hard, but he's not hitting it up. Um, so it's not leaving the ballpark
ben: Yeah. mean, that's the only thing that makes sense. His bat speed, everything is, is still what it always was. He's just the ball down. Um, so yeah, looks like on, uh, Monday the Cardinals are going to face, uh, I ki- I kind of forgot this guy was even a Padre, Lucas Giolito against Dustin May.[01:11:00]
Nate: Yeah
ben: Tuesday is Michael King against Andre Pallante, and then Griffin Canning, uh, against Hunter Dobbins on the Wednesday game. You know, we played these guys fairly recently. Like, they're, they're just in a weird spot right now. Nate was just talking about Fernando Tatis. Manny Machado's also had a, like a really bad first half at this point, just has not been good. you know, uh, they have some injuries. Uh, Cronenworth is still down. Looks like Laureano's gonna be down for the remainder of the season. I don't know. they're
Nate: Yeah
ben: team. I, like you said, though, they, they do have Mason Miller. Uh, they have him, in between him, Jason Adam, and Adrian Morejon, arguably the best bullpen in baseball.
Nate: Yeah.
ben: but they're a
Nate: Michael King is a, M- Michael King is a good starter. Um, you know, all, uh, well Giolito we'll see. Griffin Canning has been serviceable. They've kind of done the model of just get it to the bullpen, please, and then that bullpen is so good. [01:12:00] Um, but yeah, it's a weird lineup. Tatis, Merrill, Machado, all having bad to mid seasons.
Gavin Sheets is doing what he does, which is about every third week he goes on a tear and then is bad. Um, and it's like a bunch of guys you've probably never heard of. Will Wagner, Samad Taylor, Bryce Johnson, Freddy Fermin, uh, and Sung Mun Song. You
ben: Yeah.
Nate: like this is a star-studded team that is just not that right now.
So hopefully the Cardinals can, uh, uh, take advantage of it
ben: Yeah.
Um, I don't... They're 16 runs underwater on their run differential. Like, I don't know. I mean, I mean, I'm, I'm not looking forward to going against Michael King, and, and Griffin Canning has been able to put together some good starts especially,
Nate: Yeah
ben: recently. Lucas Giolito, that's a total question mark. I have no idea what he's going to look like, um,
Nate: Yeah. We are missing, um, we're both looking at roster resource, I imagine. We're missing Xander Bogaerts, who's just [01:13:00] on paternity leave. He's had a pretty good season, so he'll probably be back by the time the game, uh, starts. Um, uh, hilariously, they, uh, DFA'd, uh, Nick Castellanos, so we all love that.
ben: Yeah. Um, he's gotta be done soon, right?
Nate: He's got, he's gotta be done soon. He gets kicked off one team basically, picked up by another team, is given ample opportunity. Like they, they, they were playing him
ben: have the at-bats for guys like Nick Castellanos on their team
Nate: Yeah. And, and now they've, they've, uh, let him go. So I don't know, I don't know who's picking that guy up, but I don't know. He might get one more chance on like... I don't know. It's, I might, I always lean towards the White Sox, but they actually have some more interesting players at this point. I don't know if they'd want to do something.
It's like the Marlins is who he's gonna end up on, you know?
ben: Yeah, but he's just also not good is the
Nate: I know.
ben: So, so probably not. I do, the, the White Sox, I was, I was [01:14:00] talking to, uh, uh, Mary who's got some White Sox fans in her family. They're, above water. They're having a good start to
Nate: Yeah.
ben: White Sox are fun baseball right now. They are
Nate: They are
ben: second in their division. Um, Munetaka Murakami I think is, is down right now.
Nate: He is,
ben: but Miguel Vargas is, is legit. We, uh, we haven't checked on Sam Antonacci in a minute. Um, Davis Martin is having a good year. Uh, I don't know if you've noticed, but Eric Fetti is bouncing back a little bit,
Nate: Yeah
ben: you know, of course, whatever. Um, okay. Uh, I, I was kinda just vamping to get a Antonacci update. He is at 15 hit by pitches, Nate. So he has had, what is that? Four since we last chatted about him?
Nate: Yeah, I think so
ben: in 49 games, so we'll, we'll keep tracking that. Um, he's going for the record, baby
Nate: Yeah, we love it. I'm gonna get out there and hit him with a pitch just to help. I- all right. Let's, let's seamlessly transition into league [01:15:00] news.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: what do you wanna talk about?
ben: Yeah, a couple of big, uh, injuries across the league. Aaron Judge has been diagnosed with a rib stress frac- fracture and will be re-evaluated in four to six weeks, uh,
Nate: Yeah
ben: lame for baseball in general. Um, I, I think the only thing that's kind of worth talking about is that that does mean that we'll probably have a non-Aaron Judge MVP in the AL this year. Um, you had to pick AL MVP that is not Aaron Judge now, who are you going with?
Nate: Well, my preseason pick was Bobby Witt Jr.
ben: Yeah
Nate: Um, and he had a weird start, but he's been playing very, very well for a while now. So without looking at the actual leaderboard, um, I think I would still pick Bobby Witt Jr. just based off of skills and previous years. But [01:16:00] I don't know. I'm, I'm assuming I'm missing someone who's actually, like, at the top of the chart right now
ben: Oh, so you're, uh, uh, for the American League, the top of the fWAR chart, fWAR chart is Bobby Witt Jr., and then
Nate: Okay.
ben: Alvarez, Dylan
Nate: Yeah
ben: uh, Nick Kurtz, and then Ben Rice. Um, think, you know, and I, I have the benefit of looking at the leaderboard right now. What Yordan Alvarez is doing right now is wild
Nate: like Triple Crown. I've- That's who, that's exactly who. I knew I was gonna be missing someone on my first thought, and yeah, he's like Triple Crown pace right now, right? So, um, I guess the... If that happens, it's a shoo-in. I think it's, like regardless of anything else, if you win the Triple Crown, you're gonna get the MVP, even if someone outpaces you in, uh, F-WAR.
I do think Bobby Witt being one of the best shortstops in baseball will, you know, if, if it, if, if at the end of the day Yordan is not, uh, is not winning the Triple Crown and him and Bobby Witt have similar [01:17:00] F-WAR totals, I think Bobby Witt will win because people will, um, vote for the, the, the guy who's a defensive expert as well.
Um, but obviously with what Alvarez is doing, if he stays healthy and keeps going, he, he has a pretty clear line right towards the MVP
ben: Yeah. He's pretty good. Um, all right, and then I also wanted to talk about
Nate: Traded by the Dodgers for a reliever, by the way. So, you know, the Dodgers can make mistakes too.
ben: Yeah. Yeah, that is a crazy one, and then he also signed a very team-friendly deal for the Astros that did-- Yeah, that,
Nate: Yeah
ben: out very well for them. Uh, Tarik Skubal to begin a rehab assignment. He could be reinstated after one start.
I think what's crazy about this is how quickly he has turned around from getting those little loose bodies sucked
Nate: Loose bodies. Uh-huh
ben: that we're already talking about him coming back is, is kind of wild to me. Um, and I feel like just because he [01:18:00] is Tarik Skubal, he will come back sooner than later. What's crazy though, and we haven't really talked about this, is the Tigers are 28 and 39. So I, I really feel strongly that he is going to come back, try to prove that he is healthy, and then he is going to be a Yankee?
Nate: Yeah, it is happening. He is going to be traded and it's going to be a huge deal. Unfortunately, Hambone, he's going to be a Dodger
ben: You think he's gonna be a Dodger?
Nate: I think he's gonna be a Dodger. They always have the prospect capital. They're always willing to do it. Um, he, he's immediately the best player on, you know, they, like, I think the Dodgers are just gonna do it, and it's gonna drive everyone fucking crazy, 'cause no one else is gonna be willing to pay the prospect price, 'cause everyone else has to run, like, an actual organization.
Um, and the Dodgers can just do these sorts of things 'cause they... Well, yeah, I mean, it is what it is. But yeah, I think he's gonna be a Dodger[01:19:00]
ben: I think that is no team in baseball with more pressure to win right now than the Yankees. It's been a while. They went to the World Series. Aaron Judge is only getting older. Um, you know, they have Cody Bellinger is 30 years old. Jazz Chisholm is gonna be a free agent. Um, uh, uh, what's, Gerrit Cole is back healthy right now. Uh, but it really, they haven't done it in a while. I, think the Yankees are poised to do it. How they pull it together, I don't know. Um, you
Nate: I, honestly, I hope you're right. I don't wanna... I, I would be fi- I'd be almost happy if the Yankees went and got Tarik Skubal, uh, over the Dodgers, which is crazy
ben: a- and maybe I'm wrong, uh, maybe the Dodgers just don't give a shit and they'll just do whatever it takes, but I just think that the Yankees are in a situation where they have more to prove than the Dodgers, [01:20:00] um, and pretty much any other team in baseball. Uh, they're playing really well right now.
They're a solid team. They could always use more pitching. And, you know, if you swap out, uh, I don't know, let, uh, uh, Ryan Weathers for Tarik
Nate: season, but
ben: looks really, really good
Nate: Yeah. Um, and a counterpoint to my own point, like if the Dodgers are looking at a healthy Yamamoto, a healthy Sasaki who's starting to put it together, a healthy Snell, you know, when, once the playoffs come up, um, they might not, they might feel like it's not worth it.
Um, but just the way they've operated for the last five years makes me think that they're just gonna continue to do this sort of thing,
ben: Yeah
Nate: Um,
ben: Yeah,
Nate: so if he's not, if they don't trade for him, then they're, they're gonna be the team that signs him after this off-season.
ben: they They, have the best the best WHIP in MLB, uh, across the [01:21:00] team right now. The only thing that is a slight blemish is, uh, for the Dodgers, is that their bullpen ERA is not amazing. It is in the top 10, by the way, but it is not incredible
Nate: Tarek Skubal is going to sign a two-year, $125 million deal, uh, this off-season for the Los Angeles Dodgers. Book it.
ben: Well, he be- better get that in before the CBA is agreed.
Nate: yeah
ben: we'll see. We'll see. But, uh, it is crazy that, you know, everybody thought the Tigers were gonna be a relevant team this year, and
Nate: Yeah
ben: is Schoopel's injury or, or other things, um, they're absolutely not, and they're kind of so far out. I mean, they're eight games back of the, of Cleveland right now.
Nate: Yeah.
ben: so my prediction is, is, and I think you agree with me, is that
Nate: Yeah.
ben: out.
Nate: They're gonna trade him.
ben: Yeah
Nate: yeah. Uh, you don't have it on the list here, but I'll throw it in while we're talking about contracts, is you see the, the Brewers have done it again. [01:22:00] They have given a, uh, they've given Luis Lara a $31 million, uh, contract extension. Um,
ben: see this
Nate: he, is a, uh, a, a, a prospect who, uh, a couple years ago had some real heat, struggled, and then is, uh, is back on the map.
Um, I believe he's a short king. Um, and
ben: Five
Nate: has signed, yeah, 5-0, okay, 5'7". So he has, uh, we stan a short king. He has, uh, now has $31 million,
ben: Wow
Nate: which, like, man, the Dod- or the, the Brewers are just doing the complete opposite of, like, what the Cardinals are doing. The Brewers are... 'Cause they did it with Pratt too, and they haven't even called him up.
So they're just locking these guys. I guess they're thinking, "If we do five of these deals and it costs us $200 million for the five of them, and one of them works out, then we've made our money," you know? Let alone if two of them.
ben: yeah.
Nate: It's cr- it's kinda crazy. [01:23:00] Um, he- Some people were projecting him to get called up soon, um, because of his performance.
Um, but just immediately signing him to a $31 million deal, um, pretty wild
ben: Pretty wild. He's got a 155 WRC+ in AAA for the Brewers right now across Um, yeah. Good for him and, uh, love for the Cardinals to do something like this somewhere
Nate: Yeah
The equivalent would, I, I don't, I guess it would be like if the Cardinals gave Baez right now like a $35 million deal,
ben: Yeah
Nate: Yeah. Interesting
ben: Um, all right, final piece of news. Uh, the A's are playing s- they're in the middle of a six-game run at Las Vegas Ballpark. It's where the, uh, minor league team, The Aviators, play, which I've weirdly been to. Um, nice park. They have a bat dog there. It's very cute. I went there
Nate: A bat,
ben: beer night
Nate: Man, I heard bat dog and I was thinking like Batman. So they have a bat- [01:24:00] They've got a bat dog there? But I guess you mean a dog that collects the bats.
ben: Yeah
Yeah. Um,
Nate: We like that
ben: Uh, the day games are start to set with temps around 105 to 106. Um, I don't know if you watched that game the other night that went, like, 14 to 15. Uh, probably not because it was over at, like, midnight
Nate: No
ben: time. So, I stayed up way too late. Watched the whole thing, but it's, it's chaotic hot baseball out there. Um,
Nate: Hot baseball.
ben: Yeah. It's playing base- watching baseball at 106 degrees, you couldn't pay me to do that. I can't
Nate: It's ab- they're gonna do a dome, right, in Vegas?
ben: yeah.
Nate: Yeah, okay. Yeah, they have to
ben: No one's gonna go to that, yeah. Uh, all right, Nate, that's all I got for league news this week
Nate: All right, Hambone, we're going to an oldie but a goodie. I don't think we've played this for quite a while. It's a game I call Trade Start [01:25:00] Cut. A little play on, you know,
ben: Yeah, I get it.
Nate: a, a little different game,
ben: sick
Nate: a l- a little saucier game. But not this one. This one is Trade Start Cut. So I'm gonna give you three players, I've got them into some groupings here.
ben: Dan?
Nate: and you have to decide who you would trade, who you would start, and who you would cut. Got it?
ben: I got it
Nate: Okay, I know it's complicated.
ben: Yeah
Nate: gonna start with young starters. All right, you have to trade, start, or cut Liberatore, McGreevy, or Dobbins, and Dobbins
ben: Trade, start, cut. Wow, I can't believe what I'm thinking of saying. Trade, start, cut. Uh, this is, this is why I'm not a baseball front office is, is wh- what I, how I'm gonna answer this right now. would start, [01:26:00] I would start Matthew Liberatore
Nate: Okay
ben: I would Ah. I
Nate: It's tough
ben: I feel like I, even though recency bias is really creeping up on this decision right now. Um, but you know what? I'm gonna lean into it. Be a chaos agent. I would trade No. Okay, no. I would trade Michael McGreevy.
Nate: Okay
ben: I think that teams would value him. know, you get McGravy in the right ballpark, like,
Nate: Yeah.
ben: like the Cardinals ballpark,
Nate: Sure
ben: could probably be a good player for a little while. And then unfortunately I would cut Hunter Dobbins. Um, know, he's
Nate: Nice to know you.
ben: Kind of old for a prospect. Um
Nate: All that nice stuff we said before, bullshit. We didn't mean any of it. Get him out of here
ben: so I was really leaning towards trading Dobbins because who wouldn't want to see, you know, he's got some pretty nice stuff that who, [01:27:00] who wouldn't go for that? But McGreevy's got more, uh,
Nate: Track record.
ben: and might get more on the, the trade. But I, I, I will say ob- obviously I'm, I'm keeping Liberatore around. I still believe
Nate: Yeah
ben: Um, and you know, maybe, maybe I'm foolish for that, but that, that's where I'm going
Nate: All right, let's go into the bullpen. How about O'Brien, Soriano, and Graceffo? I'm not making it easy on you. I'm not doing any of the,
ben: No, this, this
Nate: in- inventing free agents. Okay, what do you got?
ben: me. I trade Riley O'Brien,
Nate: Okay
ben: uh, 'cause I think he gets you a ton of value. Um, he's a little too old, uh, but the stuff is electric. You know? It, it,
it's,
Nate: Boogie woogie
ben: Yeah, I, I... It's boogie woogie. I think you can get a lot for O'Brien. People would be excited to acquire him. Um, am starting George Soriano. Uh, he's got a ton of controllability. He's only just starting to tap [01:28:00] into that changeup and the nastiness.
Nate: Is
ben: I-
Nate: controllability a word?
ben: Controllability
Nate: He's got a ton of controllability. He's controllable
ben: That can't be a word. Con- he's, he's controllable? probably a better way to say it, yeah. The Cardinals have control... It can't, controllability cannot be a word. That's, that's... If it is a word, it's a stupid word, um, that shouldn't be used. Are you, are you looking it up?
Nate: Yeah
it, it does seem to be a word, controllability
ben: So like a remote control car has great controllability? What is
Nate: Uh, controllability, um, the ability to steer or dynamic- dynamically s- steer a dynamical... Oh my God, I can't read. The ability to steer a dynamical system from any initial state to any [01:29:00] desired state in a finite time period using admissible controls.
ben: Interesting
Nate: Sure, I think that sounds relevant to our discussion
ben: Anyways, um,
Nate: Dynamical
ben: remaining.
Nate: Yeah
ben: and I would kick Gordon Graceffo, uh, kick him off. Give him the stinky boot. See you later
Nate: Nah, gotta give him the stinky boot.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: right. These next two I think are gonna be harder. I'm calling this the young core. Walker, J.J., Wynn
ben: Damn. Um I, wow.
Nate: Yeah
ben: I'm gonna play this... I'm, I'm just gonna try to play this as, as, as shrewd and as
Nate: Yeah
ben: as little emotion as possible, um, 'cause that's the only way I can really think to make a decision here.
Nate: Yeah
ben: [01:30:00] J.J. Wetherholt. Um, he's 23. He looks good. He's always looked good. He was one of the best prax- prospects in baseball, came to the big leagues, continues to look like one of the best prospects in
Nate: Yep
ben: Great defender. You can play him at premium positions. You can even play him at short if you wanted to. Um, would
Nate: Controllability's there
ben: Control ability is there. I would trade Jordan Walker because who in baseball would not pay a king's ransom for a 24-year-old behemoth that is doinking dongs all over the yard right now?
Nate: Yeah
ben: there's a lot of variability there, so, you know, moving on from him, um, may be the smart thing to do. Capitalizing, you know, selling him at his peak potentially. Um, you go get yourself a nice player or two for Jordan Walker. And then unfortunately, I gotta cut Mason Wynn, not 'cause I want to, but because I think that J.J.
Wetherholt's probably a better player than Mason [01:31:00] Wynn, and that's really what it comes down to
Nate: Yeah. I think, I think that's the right play as, as difficult as that is.
ben: But I don't wanna g- I don't want them all three. I want like, ball
Nate: Yeah.
ben: trading Jordan Walker would make me cry
Nate: we... Yeah, fortunately we do. This is just a fake little game we're playing,
ben: great.
Nate: so you don't have to cry. Uh, all right, so that's what I call the young core. This is what I'm calling the slightly older core, uh, which is, um, Alec Burleson, Ivan Herrera, and Lars Nootbaar
ben: Yeah. Av- average age of 27 or whatever.
Nate: Y- y- yeah, if that, right? Probably somewhere in '26
ben: Yeah. Um, God, I... Shit. Shit, shit, shit
Nate: Shit. Fuck
ben: Um, I guess, ugh I guess I trade Newt No. He has no [01:32:00] trade value right now. Um, wow. I guess I'd trade Alec Burleson,
Nate: Yeah
ben: um, because he is a, we just talked about it, he's the third best, uh, first baseman in the National League right now. Um, boy can hit. Uh, Burley biscuits. Who doesn't want Burley biscuits in their locker room?
I, I think people are, would, would trade a, a, a... I'd get a great deal of, uh, good players for him. Um, I would, I guess I'd cut them heels, baby. I gotta cut Lars Nootbaar. Who knows when that Heglund's deformity's gonna come back? I don't wanna sit around and wait for it. Um, and then I'm keeping I- Ivan, and I guess I'm moving him to first base
Nate: Yeah, I th- I think there's an argument for trading Ivan with the current team comp, um, and the fact that we don't really need him to catch, and so now all of a sudden he's just a DH and, you know, that's not particularly [01:33:00] valuable no matter how
ben: I can put him in first
Nate: True. True. Okay. Um, I just got two more for you. Uh, prospects.
This is just the Cardinals' top three prospects according to MLB.com. Liam Doyle, Ryniel Rodriguez, Joshua Baez
ben: Um Gosh. I th... Mm. Okay. I am... Damn. I like all these guys, obviously. I guess that's the whole challenge of the game. I am starting Rynel because he might be one of the best hitters the Cardinals have seen in quite some time. he's also small and punchy. He's 19. He's a hitter, which Liam Doyle is not, which really goes against him in prospect ranking, uh,
Nate: [01:34:00] Yeah
ben: and stuff like that. Um, so I think I'm gonna keep Rynel, and I mean, if he can stay a catcher and hit like we think he might be able to hit, like that is a top-tier player. Um, I think I am trading... You said it was Baez, right?
Nate: Yep
ben: Baez is top three on mlb.com? I'm surprised by that.
Nate: Mm-hmm. That's the order. It's that order. Doyle, Rinell, Baez
ben: I will trade Baez because, like who doesn't want a house playing center field for them, uh, that can run and, and hit the ball the way he does? I, I think you can probably get a nice piece for Baez, even with the strikeout concerns. Um, and I'm cutting Liam Doyle because, um, I don't know, he's probably gonna get injured before he even comes up, if he ever comes up, and he's a pitcher, and who knows if we'll ever see him the bigs.
Nate: Yeah. I think that makes sense. Um, last one for you, Hambone. [01:35:00] Dinger, Fredbird, and Grimace from McDonald's
ben: Okay. Well, we're a Dinger- we're a big Dinger household over here. Um, so I'm
Nate: you?
ben: I'm starting Dinger. I think Dinger is good. Um, we just went to his bobblehead night, and we were late to the game because somebody who listens to the show that I will not name, and we did not get a Dinger bobblehead. So
Nate: my God.
ben: I
Nate: I'm certain I know who it is, and this is not surprising, and what a disappointment.
ben: slow-moving human being who shall remain nameless. Um,
Nate: a pastry?
ben: he does. Um, so I'm, I'm... But anyways, I'm gonna start Dinger. I'm going to
Nate: I w- I'm surprised you didn't snag one from, like, some kid when he wasn't looking or something. I just can't believe you l-
ben: who maybe like left them at their, their seat and they went to the
Nate: Yeah.
ben: like that, [01:36:00] but wasn't quick enough.
Nate: Just going to the bathroom too, it's mid, mid-game. It's fine now
ben: Um, your stuff is mine. Um, wow. I guess I'll cut Fredbird because, you know, I don't even really like Fredbird all that much. Who... Like,
Nate: Wow
ben: does he have any good bits?
Nate: Well, again, you know, he, he did make fun of, he made fun of friend of the show Brandon,
ben: Oh
Nate: um, you know, hundreds of people. So he's earned a rock solid place in my heart because of that. Um,
ben: that.
Nate: so
ben: I, I'm going to do something out of character and I'm going to stand for Brandon and say because he did that, uh, he deserves to be cut and,
Nate: out of character, and we all know you're lying right now
ben: down to Triple-A or whatever, for eternity. Um, and then I'm gonna trade Grimace, 'cause I think I could probably get some, um...
Maybe I'm trading him back to McDonald's and I can get some [01:37:00] free hamburgers or french fries or something like
Nate: Oh, sure.
ben: pretty good to me
Nate: Okay. Uh, well, that's gonna do it for this edition of Trade, uh, Start, Cut or Start, Trade, Cut. Um,
ben: What
Nate: if you have a, if you have a different opinion on any of these, uh, let us know in the Birdscored or, uh, any of our... Send me a text message, 848-48-BIRDS. Would you have, uh, done something different than, than Hambone here?
Interested to hear your take. Uh, and that is going to do it for this week ep- of this episode. Hopefully, the Cardinals keep their streak going, and we have, uh, more good baseball to talk about next week. But either way, we'll be here next week, as we are every week, bringing you another episode. Check out all of our links at talkingaboutbirds.com.
Shout out to the patrons. Consider joining the Patreon. Um, thank you to all of them, and if you're even thinking about it, thank you, and we will see you next week, and until next week, go Cardinals.
ben: Go birdie [01:38:00] boys