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Welcome to THE home of Grand Canyon hiking. If it happens below the rim—from short day hikes to Rim2Rims and beyond—you'll learn all the tips and tricks to have your safest and most memorable Grand Canyon experience.
Host Brian Speciale brings you stories of triumph, tragedy, and trail-won wisdom—told by first-timers, seasoned vets, and Canyon insiders alike.
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Brian Speciale (00:05.484)
This is the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude Show presented by Hiken. Hiking plus kinship, that's Hiken. Together we roam. Here's your host, my hubby and co-founder of Hiken, Brian Special. Thank you, Zena. Well, most of us here have at least a budding Grand Canyon obsession. Perhaps you haven't even hiked the canyon yet and are getting yourself ready. So you're not even fully aware yet that the canyon is about to grab ahold of you, which it does almost every time.
But while most of us will stop at the traditional hikes like Rim to River or Rim to Rim, a few go far beyond the boundaries of the corridor trails and cover one boundary of the full canyon from Lee's Ferry on the east to the other boundary at Grand Wash Cliffs on the west in between 277 river miles, which sounds daunting enough. But covering that distance on foot
requires navigating some of the most difficult, dangerous, and demanding terrain on Earth. Weaving in and out of side canyons, finding ways around impassable cliffs, it's enough that those 277 river miles stretch to almost 800 on foot, a challenge so extreme that to this day, fewer than 30 people are known to have done it. Well, one of them is a frequent guest on this show, a man who has been called
Mr. Grand Canyon by author Kevin Fadarco and we're talking of course about our friend Dr. Tom Myers. Dr. Myers is already the author of several Grand Canyon related books including Grand Obsession which chronicles legendary Canyon hiker Harvey Butchart and his famed Over the Edge Death in Grand Canyon which he co-authored with Michael Ghilieri. But the book he has just released might be his magnum opus.
It's called the grandest trek, unforgettable people, stories, and lessons for life from hiking the length of the Grand Canyon. It's the tale of Dr. Myers hike alongside his son Weston, which started in 2008 when Wes was just 13 and continued in segments until they finished eight years later with Wes becoming at 21, the youngest known to have walked the length.
Brian Speciale (02:23.946)
In between, so, so much about what father and son learned about themselves and each other with souls just laid bare by the rugged beauty all around them. Before we get to the book though, we thought it was important to chat about one of Dr. Meyer's favorite subjects, hiking in the heat. It's summertime in the canyon and after 35 years at Grand Canyon Clinic, Dr. Myers has developed a passion for keeping hikers informed and hopefully safe because
He really has seen it all and he'd prefer not to see you come through his door with a heat emergency. So a lot to get to in this episode. Man, I think you're just going to love it. This is the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude Show presented by HIKIN. Hiking plus kinship, that's HIKIN. Together we roam. Okay, Tom, before we get to the book, which I cannot wait to talk to you about, I would be remiss if I did not ask you about HIKIN in the heat.
because we're entering the most dangerous time of the year in the canyon. You've been through this for decades now. You know, as a doctor at Grand Canyon Clinic, which you have been since the early 90s, I think from 1990 till till today, this time of year, what are the cases that you expect to come walking through that door on a daily basis? Often they're brought in by the park service and yeah, they can walk in under their own power, but the ones we
typically see or I would expect to see are people who were flown out earlier that morning or that day because they got into trouble. know, it's generally on the South Kaibab Trail. It's somewhere near Tipoff or below or from Phantom. And they just realized that they were incapable for variety of reasons of getting out under their own power. So they contacted the Park Service or had somebody contact the Park Service and then they were flown out.
And yeah, they'll walk in, they might even be transported on a gurney. But most of them can walk, although it's usually a pretty feeble walk because they're dehydrated. And the people get like significant heat illness that isn't manifest in hyponatremia from over drinking. Those usually aren't coming to us, but we'll get some of those as well. But most of the people will be heat exhaustion or dehydration. Well, how long does it take from the time and what's the process like when
Brian Speciale (04:45.742)
I assume you are all in radio communication. So you know when there's a rescue somewhere. So NPS radios in that we're going to pick someone up a tip off, let's say, and we'll be up there soon. How long does that take? How long is it before they are in your care? Now versus say the older, you know, years ago when I first started, we definitely had significant radio communication going to park service. So we were always aware it was happening because most of the
emergencies, search and rescue incidents would come to us. Less of those come directly to us, but in our office, in the clinic, the physician office, the provider office, there is a NPS radio that's constantly on and we can hear the chatter of what's happening. We don't know necessarily if they're gonna bring them to us, but they might say that on the radio, that this is the, whoever's on SARS shift, the coordinator will say, yeah, we're gonna take this patient to the clinic.
they'll follow that up with a direct call to us saying, this patient will be to you to go into the helibase and then will be transported over to the clinic. Now that period from when they say, hey, they're going to transport and then when they actually arrive at the clinic really varies. mean, sometimes it'll be less than an hour and other times it'll be several hours as they're still sort of managing the patient or they're waiting for the helicopter eventually to get there. They're doing something else. The patient's stable, but it might be several hours before they actually arrive.
How concerned are you as a doctor and someone who's seen it all with people choosing to take on these hikes in the middle of the summer, be it just a day hike down to Skeleton Point and back, or they're taking on rim to rivers and rim to rims. What do you say to people who are taking on those hikes in the summer? Because you know it's going to happen no matter what anyone says. This is the time of the year when people have their vacations. It's the time when the North Rim is open.
But what would you say to them to warn them about what they're getting into in terms of dipping below the rim in the summer? Well, I'm always concerned, Brian. I think every year, every time summer rolls around, especially this time of year, June, which historically is the hottest, driest time of the year. It's before the monsoon, so you don't get a reprieve or cloud cover at least. You know, I don't like it when people choose to do something like this, like...
Brian Speciale (07:06.414)
rim to river or rim to rim hike in the summer because they're putting a lot on the line and I think what I would say is especially if that well Let me just preface this by saying if they overestimate what they're doing and they underestimate the heat That's the most lethal combination and what they have to understand is if something horrible happens down there horrific Especially if it involves a child that they're hauling in or somebody who's put their faith in the person who's leading the hike that oh You know what you're doing because you've hiked the Grand Canyon before
that if they have something horribly tragic happen like a fatality, the family has to live with that forever. And to do something that's, you're doing voluntarily like hike in versus say a mandatory hike, a ranger would have to do it. They're very different and it's still, yeah, I'm always concerned every summer that, you know, there's gonna be several people who will die tragically down there because they just, they didn't appreciate the heat and they didn't take the time to wrap their mind around what they were doing.
how much risk they were putting themselves into or the loved one when they started their hike. What do you say to people who you hear this all the time? You hear, I'm used to the heat. You know, I work in the heat. I work out in the heat. I exercise in the heat. You know, and I know you can be heat adapted to a certain extent, but that can lead to overestimating your abilities too, because I assume your body is not always going to
you know, cooperate and operate the way that you think it is when you're doing something so strenuous in such a hostile environment. One of the biggest problems when people have that mindset, Brian, and they do come from all over the United States with the mindset that, oh, you know, I'm used to the heat, I'm used to working out and all that stuff. I'll tell you my experience from people that even come from a hot environment, say Phoenix, for example, because a lot of our hikers do come from Phoenix, but most of them, like other places around the United States,
is they're really used to air conditioning, right? It's the air conditioned store, it's the air conditioned office, it's the air conditioned home. And so they're moving quickly through the heat, but they don't actually spend time in the heat. The people who work in the heat and are acclimated to it, the ones who are really doing strenuous physical activity in the heat to get acclimated to like roofers or, you know, people who work in, say, road construction, outdoor stuff, carpenters, framers.
Brian Speciale (09:32.526)
you know, and even they will try to avoid the hottest times of the day. They don't come to the cane to hike typically, not in my experience. So the people that from these other areas and they do work out most of their workouts, the vast, vast majority are not mimicking the conditions they're going to have in there. Where's it going to be extremely hot? know, 115, 120 degrees. Where are they going to find a place that simulates that? Virtually nowhere, unless you're actually in the desert doing it. So...
They get a little bit cocky or overconfident. Maybe that's the best, the kindest way to say it. You're overconfident. And the people that tell me that they were overconfident and they got into trouble, they're pretty sheepish about it. like, yeah, I just didn't know. And they're sincere, but if you're ignorant because of choice, you just decided, you already knew it all, that's a bad thing. Ignorance by circumstances, like, I'm a child. I got hauled in there. That's very different.
somebody else was acting on my behalf and they made the decision and I actually didn't do it. Those are ones that really really bother me. You know we had Lisa Hendy on a couple weeks ago as you know because you're the one who provided the introduction to Canyon District Ranger Lisa Hendy and she was fantastic Tom so we appreciate that introduction that's that's how she ended up on the on the show here but she was very clear about the things that worry the Rangers below the rim is the
You know, the overconfident hiker, the one who, you know, the Rangers will stop and ask them how they're doing. And she says they just kind of look past them and are very, you know, arrogant about what they're doing. And she can tell she's like, that's the, that's the kind of person who's going to get themselves in trouble more so than the inexperienced hiker. Do you find that to be true? Yeah, I think that Lisa was spot on with that. I will say I did listen to the interview and it was excellent. I think both of you did an outstanding job.
The ones who are really naive, the vast majority, Brian, they'll sort of get it right off the bat. They'll start in and I'm like, whoa, this is getting really hot. Before they get too far, they already can tell they're probably gonna be in over their head. And so the vast majority will turn around at that point. If somebody does have that overconfidence or arrogance that I'm used to working out, I do a lot of this stuff, I do it at sea level and the temperatures are much more.
Brian Speciale (11:57.912)
temperate than blazing hot desert, those people will definitely go beyond their ability. And so, yeah, there's cockiness or the arrogance that will push them beyond their limit. And then they get down inside and then there's hell to pay, you know, trying to get back out. I mean, I feel bad for both parties, but I think that fortunately most people are really good about recognizing what they're up against and also being
Honest about their ability and they'll turn around long before they get into trouble You know i'm sure in your line of work There are a lot of misnomers that you have to deal with and I don't know I could be wrong about this but I feel like one of them To a certain extent is hey if you are thirsty you're already Dehydrated how much truth is there to that and how much does you know? Believing that lead to another ailment that we talk about often here, which is hyponatremia which
People might not even be aware of that much hyponatremia. That's something we've only really heard about recently. feels like at least. Right. So the first part of your question, if you're thirsty, you're already dehydrated. That's true. Physiologically you're about one to, I think it's about 2 % dehydrated over your baseline, but that's not a problem. I mean, that's normal for us. get, we all get a little dehydrated in between meals and it's called voluntary dehydration and it's related to.
normal physiology that humans, mammals, they make up their fluid deficit when they eat. That's when we'll drink most of our fluids. Now the problem with looking at thirst being bad, like oh, you're already dehydrated so you gotta prevent thirst, that leads to, right now, a bigger problem for people getting really seriously ill, and that's water intoxication or hyponatremia. Hyponatremia just means low blood sodium.
Literally, you break that word down, that's what it means, hypo is low, and NA is sodium on the periodic table, and EMEA just means in the blood. So it's low blood sodium. And you dilute out your sodium, and unfortunately, that excessive water consumption, the excess fluid or free water in your bloodstream has to go elsewhere in your body, because often we can't excrete it fast enough to keep the balance of our electrolytes in one of the places that extra...
Brian Speciale (14:20.472)
fluid or water will go is in the brain and the brain swells. only has a certain amount of swelling that it can tolerate inside the closed space of the skull. If it does too much, the brain will herniate and people will die from that. know, thirst has been villainized. No, a thirst is like pain, you know, it's important thing. Horrible thirst, yeah, that's no fun. That's a really, could be a serious warning sign that you're taking your dehydration to a scary point. It's just like severe pain, you know, it's like, hey.
you know, you're hurting or you've hurt this region of your body severely, you need to do something about it. But mild thirst is okay, it's all normal. And you'll make up your deficit when you rest and you eat. And that's normal. The best way to balance it is just listen to your body and you drink according to the dictates of your thirst. Right, that's what humans have done since humans were around. You know, there was never this idea that you had to keep drinking just to avoid dehydration. So you listen to your body when it tells you you're thirsty.
Go ahead and drink, it's okay. When your thirst is quenched, you stop. Because if you continue to do that, despite your body not telling you need it, then that's when you risk this hyponatremia thing. And everybody's a little different. I just tell people, don't have any fixed ranges on drinking. No fixed ranges or fixed timing. You just drink according to dictates of your thirst. And when you're not thirsty but you're feeling really hot and you're worried about it, it's like, well fine, just pour that extra water if you have extra water.
over your body and use it as artificial perspiration will evaporate and get your body cooler. It's sweat you didn't have to earn. It actually helps to keep you cooler than your actual sweat because the electrolyte concentration is much lower and it evaporates easier off the body and through that evaporation you'll cool yourself far more efficiently. And hyponatremia and heatstroke, I mean they can present somewhat similar to the you know to the everyman like me. I might not know the difference unless you tell me what it is.
What is the difference? Well, it can be tough to make that distinction in the field for sure. You don't know if somebody collapses in the desert heat, whether it's down in Phoenix where you're at, Cave Creek or South Mountain, the superstitions, or they collapse in Grand Canyon from the heat or anywhere else. mean, and they've been exerting themselves. They're in heat stroke until proven otherwise. It could be a stroke. could be their blood sugar. You don't know that, but...
Brian Speciale (16:46.766)
they're in the heat, you gotta cool them off. You gotta get them out of the direct sun or off the hot rocks or wherever they're at, the hot trail, and then start to cool them as quickly as possible with the coldest water you have. You wouldn't know exactly, you know, things that can tip you off is if somebody's skin, if someone's skin is really hot or warm to the touch, you people make comments about fever all the time based on the skin touch. I think they're...
you know, 100.1, I'm like, really? By touching your hands, like, oh, well, whatever on that. But most of us have a sense if the skin feels warmer than usual. If it's hot, red, and dry, that's heat stroke. And it could be exertional, it could be classic heat stroke. There are two different things. Probably won't go into that right now. But anyway, that's pretty obvious. If they're altered, it's really hot, maybe their skin's sweaty and clammy. It could be either one. It could be exertional heat stroke. 50 % of people in heat stroke are still sweating.
but it could be hyponatremia that they're actually collapsed because now their brain's starting to swell and they're having the altered level of consciousness because of that and not because they're too hot. to keep in mind there. I think that the best course of action to avoid all this, hey, let's just stay out of the canyon in the middle of the summer, huh? It is. That's what I do. mean, one of the last long time ago. Now that said, you know, I've hiked in river trips and other stuff. And if you do, you avoid the hottest time of the day.
Right? And you say this all the time in your show, going early, right? You have the shade track and all this stuff, you know where to find shade and stuff. And then you wait out the hottest hours and then hike out when it's cooler. That makes sense for those who really want to do it. You can do it safely. Get wet, you know, stay wet. Use evaporative cooling to your advantage, especially if you're near a creek, like say Garden Creek or Pipe Creek, the Colorado River, you know, get wet. It can be actually really pleasant. Now I'm not saying somebody should go do it based on, Dr. Myers should go ahead. It's like...
No, use good judgment. And if you can avoid it and do in the shoulder seasons or the winter, it's far better, know, far more enjoyable. Yeah, for sure. OK, well, let's talk about the book. Shade can save your life. That's why we invested in the Grand Canyon Shade Tracker, a completely free tool that lets you see when and where you'll have shade on your hike, no matter the trail, no matter the day, no matter the time.
Brian Speciale (19:02.478)
Plan your hike around maximizing your time in the shade and stay safe from the brutal Canyon sun. The Grand Canyon Shade Tracker is brought to you free of charge by Hiken Grand Canyon and you can find it at gcshadetracker.com. That's gcshadetracker.com. Go on, that shade and have a happier hike. I have been looking forward to this, Tom, because I know you pretty well now and you're probably the most humble.
I think of you, think of two things. think of humility and I think of kindness. That's just to me who you are and what comes to mind. So knowing that, I mean about yourself, you're a humble person no matter what you're going to try to say here. How difficult was it for you to write a book like this from your point of view, number one, and also, you know, really just
laying your soul out there and your relationships and your relationships with your family and your son and you know putting that out there for the whole world to see how was it how difficult was it for you to to write a book like this from that perspective? Well first I'll say you know you're getting me kind of a little teary-eyed here Brian I mean to call me so humble and kind that you know that gets me kind of emotional but and I've been that way my whole life you know I've always kind of been a sort of a sentimental old fool.
even when I was young. That said, to express some of the emotion that I wanted to in the book, it wasn't easy. And even talking my son Weston into sort of burying his soul as well, it wasn't easy. I mulled it over for years and years. mean, the book really, I think back to when I first came up with the idea of hiking end to end, that was in 1985. So like 40 years in the making. So I had a lot of time to contemplate.
putting the emotions in there and some of the rawness about what Grand Canyon has meant to me, trying to think of how I might be perceived. One of the things with Grand Canyon explorers, and I think it's anywhere, as a matter of fact, whether you're, well, people who do stuff in the outdoors or activities that might be considered macho or brave or heroic, you don't ever wanna look weak. You don't ever wanna look like you had
Brian Speciale (21:22.786)
dark times in your life that, hell yeah, I've always had it all together, know, and never struggled emotionally. deciding that, nah, I'm just put it out there. I'm just gonna let people know that my life, like most people's lives, have had speed bumps and difficult times. And over the years, I think some people look at Tom Myers and they go, yeah, the guys, you know, had the...
you know the world by the tail you know he's got this great wife and a great life and he's had this idyllic career working at Grand Canyon and it just sort of happened and never had any struggles well that's not true and all of us have our you know here's a cliche our crosses to bear or our difficult streams to navigate and I've had my own and Weston has too so it took years to finally make the decision to actually put it in print
Yeah, well, I'm so grateful that that you did. mean, this is legacy stuff that we're talking about here. And, you know, I find it interesting just as a parent, especially how this journey, you know, all just kind of began when it's like, OK, Wes has agreed to do this. We're going to do this now. We're putting it into practice. And I find it funny because I know that, you know, your wife, Becky, was reluctant in the beginning to, you know, even allow
river trips with the kids. And now, you you're taking her young teenager out to hike the length of the Grand Canyon with his dad. And, you know, I think you convinced her that everything was going to be just hunky dory and everything was going to be fine. And then on day one, on day one, going through Marble Canyon, there are you and Wes.
at some very sketchy points along cliffs above the river and things like that. And this whole plan with mom could have just backfired immediately. So how did that all come about with convincing your wife that it was going to be okay to take her pride and joy out on an adventure like this? Yeah, well, when Wes hit adolescence, we could already sense that he was going to have some struggles. I mean, all of us do.
Brian Speciale (23:34.368)
I can't say all of us, but most people do. I think Becky and I both had a sense of urgency to try to intervene, as a parent would. It's like, I want my kid in a good head space. I knew that she knew it as well, that going into places like Grand Canyon, getting on river trips and stuff like that, he was generally in a good head space. And she also knew and encouraged me to develop a father-son relationship I never had.
And so I told her wanted to combine those and going end to end. I thought, she also knew that Weston was very competitive, know, part of his nature. And I'm not going say he didn't learn that from me. mean, some of it obviously, you know, to push yourself to become a physician, that wasn't easy. And so, you know, you got to compete with all the other pre-meds and all that stuff. So, competition can be a good thing, right? It makes you challenge yourself and try to strive for your best. But we...
You know, when I tried to sell it to Beck, he's like, look, I think Wes would probably buy in this. One, we're doing it together in his favorite place. Two, if he does complete it within X years, could be the youngest guy to do it. And I threw that carrot out to him. Wes, you're 13, Kenton Grew was 25 when he finished it. If you finish before 25, you'll be the world record holder that no one cares about.
world record holder for the youngest person to walk Grand Canyon from end to end. And I think that combination helped Becky kind of wrap her mind around the why and stuff. And then as far as trying to assure her that we were going to do as safely as possible, I would do my research upfront. That cliff, you know, that we had to navigate the very, from the very get go. I knew you could get past it. And I knew Wes was a decent climber. We take him to the climbing gym. He's actually
I think he's better than me at 13, but I knew we could get past it. And, you know, still it was when you were actually finally looking at it, it's like, all right, now's the moment of truth. I was way more nervous than he was. I'll tell you that. And then when it was done, I told Becky, yeah, he did fine. She's like, okay, cool. You're to stop now aren't you? And I'm like, we're still going to keep going. So that visual on the side of that cliff above the river, I assume that, you know, that was before really the iPhone era and sending.
Brian Speciale (26:00.622)
pictures by text and everything 2008, but I assume that's not a photo that you would have immediately sent to her and said, hey, check this out. Definitely would not have done that. And even my comment, you know, it just dawned on me how goofy and silly it seemed to say, hey, Wes, if you feel you're falling off that cliff, you know, jump out as far as you can. He looks at me goes, what?
I'm so weird. But yeah, I know I would never have sent Becky a picture of that little climb, even though it wasn't that sketchy, you know, looking back, compared to other stuff that we've done in between, you know. Yeah, I'm sure there's plenty of stuff later. How much how many times are you running into, you know, sketchy situations when hiking the length of the Grand Canyon? I think this ended up being what, six or seven hundred miles total to cover 277 miles.
How often is there opportunity for some serious sketchiness out there? I think you'd be surprised, Brian, there's not that much unless you want to make it an issue. There are lots of level places and ledges that you can utilize and avoid the really dangerous spots. But if you want to make it perhaps quicker or shorten a certain section.
You can choose a more risky down climb or do a rappel or something like that. But there's so many different levels you could do this on. And if you go navigate up and down, you can avoid a lot of the really sketchy spots. You can. But the spot in Marble early on to stay below the rim, on that side, on River Wright, you got to do that. If the water's really low, yeah, you could probably wade it, maybe just swim it. I didn't want to do that with a backpack on.
I didn't want to set up a pack raft or anything like that. Let's just do this cliff and get past it. But that's one section where it was pretty much unavoidable unless you wanted to, like I said, get in the river or extremely low water, which we didn't have. How much research and how difficult was it to stay on course and know where you were? I assume route finding skills and map skills and canyoneering skills almost.
Brian Speciale (28:10.926)
All come really heavily into play. How difficult was it to plan this because you were doing it in segments? You know, this wasn't a continuous through hike. You were doing it in segments over several years How difficult was that to just always know where you are in the Grand Canyon because someone like me a corridor trail rat I feel like I would you say route finding to me and it's like no I'm gonna end up dead if I do something like that, but how difficult actually is it? I don't think it's that difficult. Honestly a lot of if you read the man who walked through time
I'm sure you have by Fletcher, you he talks about looking at those ledges below Havasu where he started, you know, and he's like, yeah, that can see there where you can go. And I think it's really similar to every part of the canyon that if you just look at what's ahead of you and pay attention to landscape and you'll find where the bighorn and the deer go, you know, they're all over the place down there. So to actually plan it at a, say a level that's very specific to
one spot, can't do that at all. The devil's in the detail. You can look at a map and have a rough idea where you might want to go, but it's not until you're right at that point and you're looking at the terrain immediately ahead of you that they will make the call about where to go. Even if somebody tells you, hey, this is where I went, and they may even have a topo and they drew it on there and stuff, and we didn't have that. Yeah, just sort of get general idea and talk to friends and use George Steck's book for some of the loop hikes for certain sections that we were doing loops. You can get a general idea, but then.
Where the rubber meets the road is what's immediately in front of you. And most of the time, Brian, yeah, you can get past something. Where people get into trouble, just like any hiking off trails, where they kind of go, uh-oh, I gotta go this way, and there's something exposed, and they don't want to turn around, because it was too hard to get where they were. And so then they end up in trouble. But by and large, you can avoid most of the serious hazards. It's just grueling is what it is. And the jungles, you know, I talk about that in there.
They're absolutely brutal. And you could go high and probably miss a lot of that, but we wanted to be near water. That was part of the deal. suffering the jungles was very, it was intentional just so we could camp at the river and enjoy a good river camp, which are the best. That sounded nightmarish getting through all that stuff you had to get through. you mentioned always having to choose the safest route. And sometimes, as we found out in the book, I love this story, Tom.
Brian Speciale (30:37.43)
Sometimes that gets you in trouble with the law. I mean, that pretty much happened to you when you were on, I don't remember if it was Havasu Pai land or Hualapai land and you guys popped out at the end of a hike and you had chosen a safe direction, but you were on land that you apparently shouldn't have been on. And things kind of took an interesting turn as you guys surfaced. Yeah, that was on Hualapai land. And my intention was
to stay on River Wright the whole way, except for this one, it's a large lava dike at about River Mile 184, 185. You go down Lava Falls Trail and then can bushwhack and suffer through all that jungle and cinders and little cliffs and stuff there, which are just grueling to get through, it's brutal. Then once you get down above this big dike, which on River Wright, which is like three, 400 feet tall, our plan was to pack raft across, just get below it.
You know, on the left, directly opposite, so we were still continuing our line. Walk below, inflate the boats, and then go back through the right. One thing I didn't appreciate about that area, despite having been on lot of river trips at that point, is that the south side of the river left, which slopes face to the north, is way more shady. You know, the shade is so significant there, there's a lot more vegetation. And you're getting into like Mojave Desert down there.
But on River Right, that gets blasted by the sun. It's so desiccated. It's just way harder to walk. Everything's loose. Everything falls apart. So on River Left, we were walking there. like, wow, this is a lot easier. So one thing led another. We were walking. We're making good time. It's like, let's just stay over here for right now. We know we're on Hualapai land. And I don't trespass on Native American land. I don't. And I've always paid permits to use the Diamond Creek Road, which is Hualapai maintained and owned and all that.
I was told, or at least it was my understanding at the time, that they didn't give out permits for camping and hiking on their land. It's extremely hard to get in through a couple of points and say, no, you can't get in. So don't even try, because they'll deny it. So I didn't even try. But again, I wasn't going to stay on there. I was just going to cross and get over to other side. When we got on their land, I was like, well, this is really great. We did take our chances. I know we were doing it illegally, and I'm not proud of that fact. And we got down to
Brian Speciale (33:06.306)
River Mile 209, the Granite Park area. We ran into a private river trip and we're trying to bum some snacks from them and I let them know that, you know, what we were doing and stuff and turns out they don't not only didn't give us any snacks, they also told the Hualapai Ranger at Diamond Creek at River Mile 226 that we were on their land and stuff. Good Lord. Yeah, I know. There's a Hualapai Ranger waiting there to bust us and he did, which
Looking back, now I can laugh about it, but I tell you what, you know, in that moment when we got caught trespassing, I was like, crap, they're going to throw the book at us. It's going to cost a fortune to get out of this one. you painted a great picture of that because I'm pretty sure Wes like dove for the for the bushes and said you guys were trying to get out of sight because you knew that there was trouble and they actually put you in the in the back of their car and you know, sped off to to deal with you and look for the others, right? yeah.
So Tom, what is going on? This is not Tom Myers. No, it's not. I just had my fingers crossed. I knew I was risking it. you know, like I said, I'm not proud of that fact. Probably would have just paid him after the fact, if I knew. But I want to just stay below the radar. It's like what they don't know won't hurt them. And we didn't. You were very respectful, you know, Brian. We very respectfully no trace of the whole ethic. But anyway, we're getting down past Diamond Creek and.
the peak, Diamond Peak, and we could see the creek below us. so Wes went bombing down ahead of us. And we followed and he saw the car coming, know, the Wallopi vehicle. He ducked out and hid behind some bushes. And as soon as we got down, know, the Ranger charged up to me and said, you're under arrest, you're trespassing. You know, this is illegal. And he says, I know there's five of you. And I came down with, it was myself and the three other boys that would hike with me and Wes.
I know there's five of you, where's that other guy? And I go, no idea. I know Wes was down there, we couldn't see him. He goes, well, we're gonna find him, so get in the car. And we did, and that's when he went flying up the road to look for Weston. And, well, he never did find him. But we ended up having to pay a fine and a permit fee. But it wasn't as bad as it could have been, that's for sure.
Brian Speciale (35:22.926)
Well, that's some pretty some exciting times. mean, probably not what you expected for your exciting, memorable situation in the Grand Canyon is being placed under arrest by the Hualapai tribe. Tom, that's well, it didn't cuff me. That was a good thing. That would have made the story even better, though. Let's be honest. Yeah, that was easy. I'm glad it didn't happen. man. One of those things you know, you're going to look back at laugh. And and here we are. Breaking Canyon News, hike reports and answers to all your questions.
find it all in our Hiken Grand Canyon Facebook group. Inside, you'll have access to Brian, Coach Arnie, and just about everyone you've ever heard on this show. All there in a safe, judgment-free space, geared to root each other on and help you have your best possible Grand Canyon experience. The Hiken Grand Canyon Facebook group is the official group of the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude Show and is completely free to join. Just search for Hiken, H-I-K-I-N, Grand Canyon on Facebook and join the conversation today.
You know, mentioned, you know, staying on river left because and river left would be the south side and river north would be the north side of the Colorado. But you mentioned, you know, it was easier over there. There was more shade. I'm curious about, you know, something else that we talked about earlier and that's overconfidence, right? You're not immune from that. I'm not immune from that. You know, I know that I'm still going to make mistakes when I go into the canyon next time, the time after it's going to happen. Something is going to happen.
You know, I remember, you know, as a hiker, when you were hiking in a time when it was hot and you were certain that you were going to find water in a certain pothole and you, you know, talked about seeing it off in the distance. we're going to be okay. the next day we're going to camp here. We're going to get our water the next day. You guys get to that pothole. You discovered that it's, that it's actually empty, that it was a reflection or something that you were seeing. And now suddenly.
Whoa, we might've gotten ourselves into trouble here because I was overconfident and now you've got to find water, which can obviously be the most difficult possible thing you can do on a through hike of the Grand Canyon. So that overconfidence can come into play for someone as experienced as you as well, true? Definitely. That's another thing I'm not proud of. I felt confident that we were going to find that pothole full of water because it's a huge pothole. This is in Marble Canyon.
Brian Speciale (37:47.854)
looking at down from the rim. didn't have binoculars. That was my first mistake or one of the mistakes because we probably could have verified if the of the staining within these supi pothole was actually water or just staining. From the rim it was dark and it's like, okay, you know, it could be water. Didn't say anything glinting off of it but it was also in the shade, you know, so couldn't prove that it was water but it looked like it. And then second of all
I had been there once before and under some of those hoodoos of soup by sandstone there was a water cache. Some friends had left and I know there were several gallons there. And I didn't know exactly where was, Brian, but thought, know, worst case scenario, we'll find that. Third thing was I thought we brought enough water. I did. I had probably, shoot, least eight liters, you know, for an overnighter. I think Wes had seven, you know, and we had a friend and he had less.
But I thought we had three things that would be enough of a safety net, enough water, the pothole, and then some of the water cached and all three failed. So that was terrible, especially they got Wes in trouble. He was 13 and I'd get my boy into that and I'm thinking, gosh dang it. And it wasn't super hot, it was warm.
You know, it's October and I thought, ah, this is a good month. You know, hopefully there may be some potholes, even though that's generally a drier time for creeks and streams and potholes, because they'll dry up pretty quick unless they're big and deep. And this thing was completely dry. But so, yeah, we just got blindsided by all of that. And it was really scary. You know, I could look back now and be maybe sound a little more nonchalant about it, but we had to leave our friend and he was out of water. So it could have ended really poorly.
I'm so grateful it didn't. know, one of the things that might be a surprise to someone who picks up this book and expects it to just be this this tale of the grandest trek across the length of the Grand Canyon. They might expect just to, you know, an account, a journaling of everything that was happening on this trip. you know, I would say that the your actual hike might have made up half of the half of the book because you chose to brilliantly, I might add, weave in.
Brian Speciale (40:05.96)
all of these stories about all of these legends of the Grand Canyon and the people who have preceded you in hiking the length of the canyon that you obviously felt, you know, very called to share their stories. And we're talking about, you know, from Harvey Butcher to Kenton Grua, George Steck, Robert Benson, who I did not know about and who became an incredibly important part of this this book. Why was that so important to you to tell the stories of all these people who have
come before you and influenced who you are and what you were doing. Well, first of all, thanks for the using the word brilliant brilliantly to describe putting those in there. I thought it was and I appreciate that you feel the same way years ago. You know, Brian, when I started reading everything I could on Grand Canyon, especially for hiking and experiences on foot, it dawned on me that we only had like three things. This is actually it.
Actually, as of the 1990s, we had The Man Who Walked Through Time by Colin Fletcher. We had Grand Canyon Treks by Harvey Butchart. And we had Loop Hikes by George Steck. And then there was some other trail guide books, like Scott Vibonese's Guide to Hiking the Inner Cane. But there was nothing out there that sort of delved into this, I thought, had to exist, this rich body of...
stories and that could should be written about about hikers and what's the legacy for those of us who really want to experience this place on foot. They got to be out there. So I started just doing my own research about who the most significant hikers were and what they did and when and why because I'll say also the preface putting them these hikers in there.
When you look at the Colorado River and Grand Canyon and how much people, how much has, how many books and how much has been written about the Colorado River and stories about John Wesley Powell or, you know, Glennon Bessie Hyde or Georgie White, there's a huge body of information that looks at personalities and people who've done these things and exploration and we had nothing. So I wanted to go into like Harvey's story first and foremost.
Brian Speciale (42:32.302)
others like Merrill Club or Alan McCray, know, then the George Stex. And there are also these other people that are way below the radar, like Robert Benson, who was one of the greatest hikers the Southwest has ever seen. And I think his legacy and these others, their legacies should be remembered. I didn't want them lost to the sands of time. You know, my history buff, you know, at heart, my undergraduate degree was in history and I just loved the storytelling. And I thought...
some of this stuff is so rich and so fun and so important to those of us who feel similar about the place, especially exploring it on foot, gotta record it, gotta get it down on paper. And then as far as the ones I chose to put in the book and walking the length, I wanted to try to get in their heads, you know. Like even with Harvey, told Harvey when I wanted to know his story, I didn't want to necessarily the when.
And how it was more the why. You know, why do you do it? The who and the why. Who are you and why would you do this? What did you want out of it? What do any of us want out of this place? And the ones I chose I think are a good mix. think there was a and like you said, there are a lot of stories that people haven't known about. And to me, it was fun to be able to be the first one to tell it. The Robert Benson story, especially because that's not a name that I was familiar with. Yet you found it.
important enough. You know, we talked about the kindness and the humility, which is what I think of when I think of you. And of course, you back that up by donating all proceeds from this book to Grand Canyon Conservancy. And there's actually, you know, a dedication at the very beginning of the book where it says, all proceeds from the sale of this book will be donated to the Grand Canyon Conservancy in memory of Robert Benson, one of the Grand Canyon's
greatest hikers. His life ended far too soon, but may his legacy live on. This was an extremely interesting character because I think a lot, you know, he was wrapped up in himself and his accomplishments. It was fairly clear, which I don't know, is kind of the opposite of what I feel like you stand for. So I'm curious what it is about Robert Benson that just grabbed you to the extent that you're, you know, writing dedications about him.
Brian Speciale (44:56.302)
think Robert Benson and I were very different, you're right. But we shared something in common, that's insecurity. And I think people have their own insecurities for a variety of reasons. Somebody, and it may manifest in different ways, some people have aggressive insecurity where they're arrogant, where they act out, because maybe they feel so inadequate that the only way they can get some sort of sense of self-worth or self-esteem is by maybe putting others down or making themselves look.
heroic or important or better than others in front of others, you know, so they do that. And then here's those of us who have the insecurity that, you know, maybe, all right, I'm going to just choose to be a wallflower and hang out in the background and not draw any attention to myself. It's like, well, that guy's obviously insecure versus the guy who's bragging and chest thumping and all this stuff. But that's, know, I think arrogance is aggressive insecurity, frankly. And I think that, you know, people who are really
They're not all insecure. They're not. I think some of my humility has been grounded in just being insecure about stuff like how I was raised and some of the things from my own childhood. But it depends on how you want to deal with it and how you want to interact with others despite your insecurities. And for me, I would rather choose to not.
chest thumps so much. know it's, yeah, to say, yeah, I like the length of Grand Canyon. Maybe it sounds contradictory to that, but, you know, it helped me and Wes get over our own insecurities and help us in ways, help Robert Benson. But it wasn't enough, you know, he struggled, you know, and for those, your listeners who don't know him, you know, he was born in Germany, the son of a man who was raised in the Hitler youth culture and Arianism, and he had some...
huge insecurities about being nearsighted and dyslexic. And I think he just suffered with poor self-esteem. I never met him. I wish I could have. I wish I could have gotten his head, kind of find out what he's like. I don't know if I would like to hike with him. I probably wouldn't have, but I still would have liked to have met him and talked to him. Well, obviously it made an impact on you. And that was, again, an unexpected part of this book. And I think all great books, they have the unexpected in them. And I think this one did in
Brian Speciale (47:19.062)
in many different places and manifested itself in many, many different ways. And the one that I thought was maybe the most powerful in the entire book, in this book by Tom Myers, wasn't even written by Tom Myers. I think the most perhaps powerful section of this book was written by your son, Wes. And this was, for those that don't know, this was late in the hike.
And Wes was doing a segment by himself. And I think you sent him off at Lees Ferry and you were off to do a river trip. He was completing a segment that he hadn't completed and he was insisting on doing it himself. This is is later. This is years later. He's not a 13 year old, obviously. But you guys knew that there were thunderstorms coming in and you had to talk with him about, the potential for flash floods. But then, sure enough, unbeknownst to you on a river trip, there's Wes.
in a side canyon during a just biblical flash flood that you don't even know about until, you know, until until later. And he has to deal with that and he has to come to grips with his life. And what he wrote just laid bare his soul to the world. And, know, he wrote about he wrote about you and he wrote about his relationship with his mother, which was incredibly powerful. Choke me up.
But I'm just curious what that was like, first of all, in hindsight, knowing that your son was in a life-threatening situation and you were not there. But also just what it means to you and what it means to Becky to read what he wrote in such an eloquent and powerful and memorable way. Well, you've gotten me all choked up myself here, Brian, know, just thinking about that. And I really appreciate you.
verbalizing what I feel and I do think it's the most important and powerful chapter in the book and the best one. As an aside, I'll just tell you this, that when my co-author of Over the Edge, Michael Ghilieri, read that chapter, he said to me, goes, wow, this is really powerful. He but I gotta know, did Weston actually write this? And I said, yes, he did. goes, wow, it's really good. You should take some lessons from him.
Brian Speciale (49:41.326)
And I'm like, right, Weston is a good writer. And just for what it's worth too, it's like, I do get choked up with that. And Becky still hasn't read it. She just tells me she can't. She just, she knows where her mind will go. and, you know, Wes wasn't in a good head space at that time. And, you know, that particular flooding, was in Knab Creek and it was, we looked at the...
U.S. Geologic Survey website for what Canab Creek was flowing at the time when that flood peaked. was just a little less than what the Colorado River was doing. It 9,000 cubic feet a second, which is just massive. You like you said, biblical, huge. And you got trapped against the canyon wall and you couldn't go any higher. You know, if the water would go little higher, he had no place to go. Up, down, couldn't climb it. It was unclimbable. And it peaked at that point. And during that night when it was...
raging by him. did a lot of soul searching about his life and who he was and you know some things and reflecting on his mom and a good when he was in a bad headspace in high school.
You know, I did encourage him to do that hike. We thought we would, you know, the timing would be such and he knew enough about monsoon flash floods that he would get in and be not in a slot during that mid afternoon. He knew the warning signs of flash flooding. And I've actually hiked that same thing by myself, the same, the same area where he went off of Swamp Point through Saddlecang and past, you know, Tapete's Creek, Deer Creek and over to Canab and then up Canab. I've done that, you know, but I did it solo.
But the size of the flood that came into Canaver Creek was very rare. And so that was the unexpected part. And I think about having encouraged him to do that. And he said, Dad, I just want to do it on my own. I'm ready. I want to tackle this because I really want to finish walking in. And I'm like, good for you, son. Use all the things you know about how to mitigate your risk if it is raining. The big storm does come.
Brian Speciale (51:52.27)
in a narrow place. But in some ways, I'm not somebody who really ascribes to the everything for a reason philosophy. I don't know, I struggle with that. But in this case, it just seems like there was a reason. Divine intervention, providence, that kept him alive and helped him in that moment do the soul searching he needed to help
put his life in perspective, to put living his life the best way he could and putting relationships like his relationship to us, to Becky and I, to his sisters and his friends, know, it like, does all this mean? you know, how can my life be worth living, you know, beyond this, or how do I want to live it? You know, and it was really impactful, powerful.
I think the single most powerful moment in his life and he's honest to fault about his feelings in there and to encourage Wes to do that, was a bit of a challenge, Brian. I mean, he never really verbalized, no, absolutely not. He was like, well, let me think it over. Because again, you're opening up yourself to criticism. You're going to be vulnerable, like, hey, Wes is a big strong guy, but look at where he was in this moment and to show emotion and that we're not always just
as tough as our exterior may seem to project, know, that we're all human, you know, and I think Weston's story as a teenager, you know, the most powerful line, think, in the book is one of the most powerful lines in the book, if not the most powerful, is when he says that, I understood the reasons for my depression. It was when I realized I was just mediocre. And he's anything but mediocre, but that's how he felt about himself, that he couldn't be something
amazing that he was raised or came to believe through social media or teachers or whatever, TV that, oh yeah, you can do anything you want. You can be anything you choose to be. It's like, no, that's not necessarily true. I always wanted to play in the NBA, but a short white guy who can't dunk, it's like, and can't shoot free throws? That wasn't going to happen. So anyway, Wes finally agreed to it. And I just think it's a masterpiece what he wrote in there.
Brian Speciale (54:19.866)
And just not just the right even more than the writing with writings excellent, but What he's expressed is just to me timeless Is there a moment from the whole trip that sticks out above everything else? I? Would say that one of them that that really stands out in my memory was Just the very first night on our first loop the Cathedral wash to Soap Creek, you know when I was We were at six mile wash which is on
River Wright and we had all to ourselves that whole day we had the cane to ourselves and I just remember sitting there and looking at the cliffs and you know Wes had fallen asleep earlier than me and you know the shadows were just looming spectacularly and the river was the little murmur of the river there in the distance and and I'm on this beach with my boy and I tell you you know as a father you'll relate to this it was just
It was just one of those moments, one for the ages. I'm like, my gosh, I'm doing the grandest hike in the grandest place and I got my son next to me doing it with me. was like, it's awesome feeling. It's like, man, I want to just tattoo that this on my brain forever. You know, I'm looking so forward to more of these moments, but I was finally doing it. I was walking the length, getting this monkey off my back and even better I had Wes with me. It was just amazing. Well, I mean, you, did tattoo it on your brain and you.
tattooed it on the rest of us as well to enjoy for all time. You know, it's legacy stuff that you did hear, Tom. I feel sorry for people who are going to read this who don't know you. And the reason I say that is because I know you well enough that I can hear your voice and I could hear your voice and feel what you were trying to convey as I read it. Every word, I could hear your voice. And that made it even more meaningful.
But that's not to say that everyone else can't enjoy it without knowing Tom's voice. Of course, of course you can. And I hope you feel like that you that you know him a little better after, you know, all the all the times he's been on the show and just today talking about this incredibly personal, incredibly important, incredibly impactful story that will stand the test of time. I mean, it will, Tom. This is this is legacy stuff. I'm just I'm proud to know you, my friend. You know.
Brian Speciale (56:46.434)
Kevin Fadarco has coined you Mr. Grand Canyon. And we talk about the humility thing and I'm sure that kind of, that's maybe not a title that you want, but it's a title that you have earned. And we're all better for knowing you and I think everybody who reads this book is gonna be better for reading it. So thank you. I think that's all that we can say is thank you for doing it and it's gonna leave a mark my friend. Thank you.
Thank you, Brian. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. As always, I appreciate you, my friend. My friend, Dr. Tom Myers. I hope you'll support him and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. Again, all proceeds from the Grandest Trek go directly to the Conservancy so they can continue their work to protect the park for future generations. The best place to find the book? At the Conservancy's website, Grand Canyon.
That's grand canyon dot org. Well foot problems have destroyed many a Grand Canyon hike and coach Arnie's here with a sticky solution for us. Hey guys, it's coach Arnie with another Grand Canyon tip of the week. And once again, thank you Brian for allowing me to share some wisdom with everybody. This week. This tip is more foot mobility. More foot stuff.
Why? It's so important. This is about foot position and how to create better posture. Again, my question, why? Less injuries, less wasted energy, more enjoyment. This is what I call the Velcroed foot. I want you to think about having a piece of Velcro on the bottom of your foot, okay?
Think about that for a second. So what are we doing? We want to have the entire foot sticking to the ground and then you're gonna push through the entire foot all the way through the big toe and then drive off the big toe. Why? Because we want to better use the glutes and the extension muscles in the right pattern. And here's the pattern. Glutes first.
Brian Speciale (59:16.472)
then your hamstrings, and then your lower back. Now, this is important, and this is why I am so obsessed with the feet. Most of the issues that we're having right now start from the ground, whether it's a knee issue or a hip issue or anything, or a back issue, it's starting with poor movement patterns, poor strength of the feet. So we better learn how to push off the foot.
then we will eliminate or we will expose a bad movement pattern and then we can fix it. So think about that Velcro on the bottom of your foot. Think about that as you're going up the mountain and pushing through your entire foot, not part of it, all of it. And then through that big toe, the big toe, that's gonna teach you better posture and better movement patterns, I promise you.
It works. Now, just go practice everything I teach. We got to practice. You got to own it. I love you guys. That's Coach Arnie, Arnie Fonsica Jr., our exercise physiologist and Canyon coach. If you think he can help you, well, give him a call or shoot him a text. His phone number is in the show notes. One of my favorite things about our Hiking Grand Canyon Facebook group is when I read another comment from someone who's just shocked that Arnie either picked up the phone or called them right back.
Yeah, it never never gets old. Hey, we've added a shirt and hoodie and a poster on our website that might interest you We're calling it our ultimate rim to rim collection. I'll feature the full rim to rim map Labeled with all the landmarks including some that I promise you you will find nowhere else on the planet like the frying pan Split rock falls the eye of the needle jacob's ladder. That's why we call it the ultimate rim to rim collection
We hope you'll check it out and consider picking one up to support the show and all the free resources we offer here If not, no biggie. We're gonna do what we can to help you no matter what you can find that all anyways at hiking club hiking club hikin Club, alright, that's it for now. Don't forget to go to Grand Canyon org and pick up dr. Meyers book That was a great conversation. My name is Brian special encouraging you as always to go hike the canyon take that first step
Brian Speciale (01:01:41.834)
Embrace the journey. And when you get there, whether it's for time goals or taking your time, just hike your own hike and enjoy every step in the majestic Grand Canyon. We'll see you next time on the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude Show powered by HIKIN. Hiking plus kinship, that's HIKIN. We're a community of like-minded hikers helping each other and moving forward as one. HIKIN, together we roam. This is the HIKIN Podcast Network.
Look for new episodes of the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude Show on Wednesdays, Tales from Below on Fridays, and hiking meditations in my separate show, Sacred Steps, on Sundays. Hiking, together we roam.