Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The environment around us is a swirling vortex of chaos, but you can navigate it when you have an anchor that can keep you steady. Each episode, Liz Herl dives into data driven strategies and real world tactics with Dr. Tim Caldwell to help you become more grounded and centered in a world that is constantly shifting and changing. Learn to effectively navigate family strife, career challenges and handle the anxiety of the unknown that the news is constantly bombarding us with. Liz is a Licensed Clinical Marriage and Family Therapist and Dr. Caldwell is a retired primary care physician and personal trainer. You can lean on their decades of experience to find stability and peace without having to control circumstances or people around you. You can be anchored in chaos.
AIC_Ep17
===
Liz Herl: [00:00:00] Hello. I always just say hello. I don't ever know how to start. Like, hey
Tim Caldwell: hello everyone.
Liz Herl: Because they have the intro right before.
Tim Caldwell: I know, I know.
Liz Herl: And then it's just like, hey, hello everyone.
Tim Caldwell: I know, no, no, no, no, no. It's, it's fine. And by now, if people don't know us, I'm Dr. Tim Caldwell. This is Liz Herl.
Liz Herl: Same old, same old.
All right. I'm going to go dive, we're diving right into it today. So we just got done finishing the episode.
Tim Caldwell: We're going to [00:01:00] do the other side of the coin.
Liz Herl: We did the, lacking roles for our females without males or absent in a way of emotional feedback because they could have been physically present, but maybe some attributes and traits weren't being exhibited to them.
And then we're going to do the same thing. Everybody gets a turn. So today we're going to talk.
Tim Caldwell: Everybody gets a turn.
Liz Herl: Everyone gets thrown into the frying pan. That's
right. So we're going to talk about and this is, this is kind of interesting because males have currently been in the hot spot, if you will, around society right now regarding what and how they act and what their demands are and things like that, so.
Tim Caldwell: Big, big, big time.
It's the reactionary thing to this huge feminism push. We're now seeing this big people, men are beginning to defend themselves and I don't think you understand what's going on on our side.
Liz Herl: Right. Right.
And it's, it's quite significant that it's not being discussed. The, the mental health crisis there. So we're going to talk about men [00:02:00] for a minute regarding what maybe they're looking for and what they missed out on. Or was absent in their childhood, in their upbringing, not just childhood, but as they develop these relationships.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, not so much expectations because that's so much, that is so personal and that, that's a huge spectrum of things we can talk about.
But really, kind of formatively, how was, how was their paradigm, their view of men and men's responsibility to women? And where that came from. Or didn't come from.
Liz Herl: Or didn't.
Tim Caldwell: We didn't get it yet.
Liz Herl: Right. And we're going to start with the attachment theory like we did prior. I was sharing with you just moments before that they have marrying effects here as if you're missing something.
It leads us to the result of feeling anxious or avoidant in behaviors if you're missing certain attributes or nurturing aspects, especially from females. So. I shared with
Tim Caldwell: Emotionally, right? Yeah.
Liz Herl: There is [00:03:00] this belief that when women become mothers, they suddenly have this innate turn on like mother bear syndrome.
That does not always happen,
Tim Caldwell: Right?
Liz Herl: Because of whatever they experienced in their upbringing,
Tim Caldwell: Maybe their mother didn't show
them that. Yeah,
Liz Herl: An absent mother, an avoided mother, an anxious mother, whatever it may be that natural like when other women hear of other women saying I don't know how you couldn't I Am 100 percent a mama bear and all three of my children would tell you that I'm not overprotective or anything But
Tim Caldwell: So you're not a helicopter mom.
You're not a snowplow mom You're you're none of those things But what you're what you're indicating to me is that there are people there are people out there and we're gonna We're just gonna say women and men That are missing some quality because they didn't get it. They didn't have a parent to teach them that.
I didn't have a man to show me a man's view. I didn't have a woman to show me a woman's view.
Liz Herl: Right. Right.
And so that can lead to all of those behaviors within men that they then start filling in as life [00:04:00] starts trans.
Tim Caldwell: They're faking it till they make it.
Liz Herl: Yeah, because that's helpful. So, generally, that lack of nurturing and affection, is it really going to give that longing for security?
Like,
I really, I miss something, but I don't know what it is. Especially if we see it in other In your peers, their, their homes or at school. It's like, well, wow, my mom doesn't do that. You know? And your, your mom's like really nice. Why is your mom so nice? Or, you know, your mom's like smothering you. Like, you know, I was like, what is happening?
Or, you know, so you start collectively creating something around what is missing.
Tim Caldwell: In comparisons, you see these things, pop up in your life. At all times of your life.
Liz Herl: Oh, this is ongoing.
Tim Caldwell: Kindergarten, grade school, all these, yeah, you see these things.
Liz Herl: It's ongoing. And you're unintentionally collecting a idea of the role of a female.
Like, this is the attributes and traits I'd want her to have. Yeah. Like, I would have a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Yeah. [00:05:00] You know, I'll take this and that. Yeah, you're kind of, you know, yeah, and again women do this.
Tim Caldwell: I've seen a couple of cute things Where the the mothering confronts her young child.
It's a sitcom and she goes I know you're seeing another mom I can smell her cookies all over you and and the young kid. It's a great little episode he goes it was only one time and she cuts the corners off my bread and all this stuff and it's cute, right? It's cute.
Liz Herl: It is adorable. That's really cute.
Well, and that's actually really kind of healthy in some ways.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And could be unhealthy. But, so the absence of maternal validation. What did, I'm just going to ask you, I told you this earlier, I'm going to put you in the hot seat a little bit. Cause I'm giving you my, my personal clinical perspective.
Mm hmm. That, needing the emotional validation of how I know I'm doing right, because it is completely different when your dad tells you you're doing something right than when your mom tells you you're doing something right. Yeah. And, that's a more of an emotional piece. [00:06:00] Yeah. Because, generationally, I will say, Dads are kind of a little bit more rigorous, like black and white, like, that's what you're supposed to do.
What are you doing? You know, whereas moms are a little bit softer and being like, honey, I know you really tried and I could see that. But if you don't receive like that counterbalance, like, and it's maybe all rigid or all soft.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: Like, how do you kind of work through that?
Tim Caldwell: Well, there's a bunch of ways.
And so I was raised on buffalo and cattle ranches. Sorry, Buffalo and Horse Ranches. And pretty much all military family. And my dad was a man's man's man, right? And there was no messing around. But I will tell you just a quick little story about driving nails. Right, teaching a son how to drive a nail.
And in the beginning it can be just a scrap piece of wood and you go get some nails and you let them go at it, right? You let them go at it. Well, a mother watching them going, keep trying, honey, keep trying, keep trying. There you go. And they'll bend a thousand nails and they'll just butcher things. But keep trying.
The [00:07:00] father would go, holy smokes, what, are you my son? What's the problem here? And that interaction is so different.
Liz Herl: It's imperative. Yeah, it is.
Tim Caldwell: But it is imperative because the man will foster this almost competitive nature of, come on son, I believe in you and I want you to do this well. And the mother is, Oh, you can do it.
Liz Herl: You're a cheerleader. You can do it.
Tim Caldwell: And I'll kind of leave it there because as we get older, now our peers and the people who we may work for, if you can't, and again this is a silly analogy, but driving nails. If you're driving nails and you can't nail something We, as men, will hold you to task.
We'll call it, we used to call them lightning. You can't hit the same spot twice. And we'll give him a little pink hammer, and you get to drive the nails with this hammer today. The idea behind that is we're going to hold you to pick up your game. And women, and mothers in this, especially in this example, are there to just keep trying.
Right? That example [00:08:00] is very caring and nurturing, but it's not exactly a drive
Liz Herl: well, and that's okay because that's not her role. Now what I would say,
Tim Caldwell: It's really for you to don't give up.
Liz Herl: Right. So when we're talking about the apps absence of that, there is a high likelihood that males will then tend to find and seek out females that is going to provide that like those atta boys and those good.
And that's where it's unfortunate. Much like we were talking about in the previous episode where people go into mommy issues. Like, well, I don't want another child. I don't, You know, when a man child, you know, versus like understanding, like, I, I need to know if I'm doing well for you, and I want to know if I'm doing well for you, and I don't want to be represented as an infant or something weak in that, right.
Men lacking that will really seek out that validation of motherlike roles in their female partners.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. And you know how that kind of the, where I was going with the story and how. People have the opportunity to, [00:09:00] either they're really good at it, or maybe they're not so good at it. They kind of drop their expectations until I find somebody who goes, Well, my standard of what I do is good enough for you, right?
And now I've, now I've kind of got a category. At least this person accepts me, and this person accepts me. And as we get older, we realize, okay, well. I can't change a tire. I don't know cars. I don't know this. Well, I'm not going to go to, I'm probably not going to date a girl whose father was a mechanic, because that's just not going to be acceptable in the, in the whole in the whole mechanics of the family.
That father won't improve you. The daughter's probably going to have a lower, lower respect for you because you can't. Men are trying to fit in, and they will, if they have that confidence that hopefully they develop from peers and their family, and their fathers they will continue to try to get better at it.
Where as men would just say, well, I'm not so good at it and [00:10:00] it's okay for her. And they'll settle at that. There's a level of complacency at that. Not that we have to, and this is all, this is all kind of hard to put in one hard shell. But the smaller the circle we're trying to make with this point is a father will, is more, I want you to get better, I'll show you how to get better, I will push you to get better.
Whereas the mother would be You're fine as you are, or, which isn't toxic, but it's certainly not, it's certainly not a competitive realm, say, towards ancient man. You can't be a so so with your bow and arrow. You need to be excellent with your bow and arrow.
Liz Herl: And, which, so, when we're talking about, like, seeking that validation in that female role part, then we're going, that leads us right into unintentional dependency of it, of I want to feel cared for, and I, I depend on you stating, seeing, whatever it is, for my [00:11:00] self validation, for my self esteem, because especially if you were deprived of that during adolescence and then you find a woman that really does that and you're like, man, this is amazing.
This feels awesome. Oh yeah. And I don't ever want to lose this. Right. So I'll do whatever it takes. Or. In some ways, that can be healthy and unhealthy because it feels so good to feel cared for. In a way that I've never been cared for before.
Tim Caldwell: Do you think that leads to the male's tendency to peacock then after he does?
Kind of a mediocre job, but she's really proud of me. And he'll just, he gets all puffed up behind that. Am I missing the point in what you're saying there? Do you think that men seek that out just so that they can elevate themselves in their own psyche.
Liz Herl: I'm sure, absolutely, that definitely plays a role. It's kind of like when a woman, in humor, oh, you're my big strong man that came over and did all these things.
Tim Caldwell: Right, right.
Liz Herl: And they're like, yeah, you know. Yeah. And there's, even in that joking nature, there's a lot of stuff happening.
Tim Caldwell: Oh yeah, there is.
Liz Herl: And it's saying, yeah, I appreciate that because I don't [00:12:00] want to be vulnerable and super soft. That's right. And be like, you know, I just see everything you do and you make me proud.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Liz Herl: And it's like, oh my god, what are you doing all that stuff? Calm down.
Tim Caldwell: Like, it's a shoveled snow. Yeah. Take it easy.
Liz Herl: Yeah, easy. Versus what that does to, because in those vulnerability pieces, so we're talking about that going into seeking, nurturing that to be nurtured and cared for.
Tim Caldwell: Well, you know, in the growth period, the educational part, hopefully the male will develop the skill to recognize, am I being manipulated or is this true praise?
Liz Herl: Good luck. Right. And because if you haven't had a healthy example of that, yeah, of how do I differentiate between that?
Tim Caldwell: Well, my point is is that exists?
Yes and there are those who will just they bend over backwards to try to please and it It's this really just this incredibly subtle manipulation. Gosh, that's heavy. I don't think I can lift it kind of thing and the male will go, I'll get it, and 500 pounds [00:13:00] later can you take it from here? I don't think I can.
I think you're going to have to do it all. Okay, well, this is, this is a flaw, in my opinion, on the man's side to not say, Alright, I'll tell you what, you and I are going to do it together. Because I need you to get stronger at this too. That's always my fix it problem is, well, you know what, I'm not going to unload this whole thing by myself.
We'll do it together. And then we both have skin in the game. We're both invested. If a man just will do this for a woman, either your, I won't go there. The husband if he's married is probably trying to keep the peace and he's going to do it because he's been doing it all along. Which can be a trap.
Or, the husband will go, I'm going to do it a little and I'll do it a little bit later. And you're going to have to be patient with me because that's heavy and I'm tired. This explanation is vague again, it's, but it's just an example of, I hope that a man in his, in his educational experience, especially around women, will realize, is he [00:14:00] being truly acknowledged for what he does and appreciated, or is it just A point of manipulation.
Liz Herl: Yeah, and like I said, if you know how to differentiate between that, that's the only way you're going to be able to do that. Some people just wing it. And I don't know what I'm collecting in harm and feedback and things of that nature.
Tim Caldwell: So that person would who? If he thought he was being manipulated, who could he go to to ask, Hey, probably their father.
Or, or a father figure and say,
Liz Herl: Again, depending on what that relationship looks like, yeah, you know,
Tim Caldwell: But in the absence of, he may ride that train until he just,
the wheels comes off
Liz Herl: Until he crashes, and so that dependency of the female approval piece that starts transpiring for an individual or male that has that lacking nurturing and caring aspect leads into inability of vulnerability, like I have never been taught to be able to be vulnerable with a female, so like [00:15:00] I being able to say, you know, I know things are really hard, but when even a mom will, if, if a mother's reaction was to something that was really difficult, well, you know, I, life's hard. So buck up buttercup, which is, I'm not saying completely wrong, but having that, you know, I know like it's super sucky, like it, And I hate, I know you feel terrible about this, just some sort of validation of, and being able to be like, mom, I tried really hard and this didn't go well.
It's like, I know you tried really hard. So he was vulnerable with the mother at one aspect and she was able to validate that and not deflect or, you know, unacknowledge his vulnerability. When she was able to do that, you're setting a great neurological feedback of like, wow, this feels what I, this is what I, I think is healthy.
This is what I believe to be true. Therefore I want to try and seek that out. But if I didn't have that interaction and the biggest complaint, I think [00:16:00] a lot of~ sometimes ~females have are the lack of vulnerability men have and being
Tim Caldwell: unemotionally available
Liz Herl: Right because it's like, I'm and women are, as we shared, are a higher emotional beings and saying, I just want you to, but if, are we, and I don't want to get off where we're going here, but are we listening and
Tim Caldwell: This is actually, this is actually a tricky subject because giving examples you know, maybe, maybe we should just boil this right back to the simple fact.
Are there fathers present for a male's development or the absence of a father in a male's development? And the mother's input and all this stuff.
Liz Herl: Right, for both.
Tim Caldwell: You are, you are right, is that I'm, I'm afraid that men have been pigeonholed, especially in this last decade, that we're just cavemen, incapable of emotional response and emotional availability, and we're not, and we'll cover this a little bit further as we go [00:17:00] down through our topic line, but I think what's important, the important takeaway.
From what we're discussing is more that the subject matter of was it available for me to learn from in the beginning? And if it wasn't this whole thing has to be developed. And it's not that men develop these emotional things slower. It's just that men seem to be willing to sacrifice more to please their female counterpart.
Especially if they thought, you know, this is ancient. This goes back to having a mate, mating, finding a mate, all of this stuff. how much can I do to win your affections, right? And then win.
Liz Herl: But the know how. So that's where I'm going. Into the know how of how to do that for a healthy, self aware young man.
Yeah. To be able to do that. Now, so for going into that, there's a piece [00:18:00] around this. That's what I was saying. The overcompensation. That goes into this. Yeah. This is a very dangerous thing, specifically for men that is not really talked about a lot, because that overcompensation can sometimes lead to death.
Tim Caldwell: Yes, well that's, that's the end, that's the end result. But mine is, when you overcompensate, and there is initially some appreciation, or a level of appreciation. But when appreciation fades away to expectation, that's where the male has He literally, if he allows it, he's erased a line that she just stomps all over.
And now you're carrying all the load.
Liz Herl: That's when you're saying that there isn't again, I don't seem to sound like I'm saying the same thing over and over again, but Do I know how to differentiate between when it's overcompensation, when it's expectation, and that's a healed self, that's really good time to go to therapy and kind of learn about yourself.
Which is the whole, you know, idea around this is [00:19:00] understanding. I, I need to look within as to why I, engage and the same thing that women ask themselves. I definitely know men. Why do I continue to choose these types of intimate partners?
It's like, how do I kind of seek the same people out over and over again? Yeah. I've normalized this kind of interaction unintentionally and I need to kind of maybe do a deep dive as to why that is. Yeah. Again, not going off, but what happens to this piece where I am starved for nurturing that I will do whatever it takes to, to get breadcrumbs, like just get a little bit of encouragement around, Oh, I saw what you did there.
That was great. Thanks. Well, Hey, she, she saw that. That was wonderful. So how do I kind of, you know, expand on that and get more feedback there? So I. I'm trying to think of an analogy. So I pick this up. So maybe if I pick up, you know, this, so I shoveled this piece of the sidewalk. If I shoveled 10 driveways, yeah, really make an [00:20:00] impression.
You know, and it's like, what does it do to versus the understanding that you're driving to be seen? And why are you driving to be seen? And if, you know, there's, there's a little bit to unpack there, but
Tim Caldwell: So that does touch a little bit on a couple reels that we reviewed in preparation for this is what happens when a person continues to do things and there's very little recognition for what they do.
And that is if a woman is with a man who's a go getter, and this guy turns and burns from dawn till dusk Even beyond that. If she's a really needy emotional person, she's probably got the wrong partner. Because if he has always been like that, and depending on where you meet him, or maybe he develops that as you go, that's something you'll learn how to, the female would probably learn how to, either early on say, I don't want that, or say, okay, I like this and I can go with him.
But if you're, 30, 40 years into a marriage and [00:21:00] this guy is never home. The woman is so tired of being alone. That's a big deal. And trying to ask the man to say, I want you to dial back, there's a possibility, but if it's really in his nature, and he shows no signs of slowing down, that's gonna be a tough decision, right?
So in the, in the matching in that matching model, If you're a go getter man, and you can't push a woman to do more for herself or want more for herself, you may have picked the wrong partner to do that with. It's just, remember the old opposites attract? Well, they will attract. For a while, but at some point you want to be able to have somebody who's way more similar to you so that you literally can relax and we worked hard together and all of these things were developed mutually.
But if, if it's really one sided. Emotionally, things can get way out of balance too.
Liz Herl: Right, and which is exactly what we're going to go into next is emotional [00:22:00] development gaps. So, the emotional delay that takes place for men when they're not shown, you know, emotional vulnerability and disgust and, and that's modeled in front of them.
This is also where men get a lot of feedback around being childish, because that lack of maturity and being shown how to be transparent and talk about, you know, what this feels like or what you think about or whatever isn't initiated or built in, in adolescence through young adulthood, that everyone's, you, you know, you act like you're 12 years old.
Well, there's a reason for that. Yeah. And so then they start seeking out partners and this is where we find. younger men with older women because they're kind of shaping them a little bit in their skill set around emotional understanding guidance and support and feedback. And they're like, okay, so this is how this works.
Tim Caldwell: Did I hear that right? It's younger men with older women.
Liz Herl: Right.
Tim Caldwell: It's yeah, I agree. I [00:23:00] absolutely agree. They, and I don't know what the difference is, and I don't even know where the timeline is, but let's say you're a 25 year old man and you're with a 45 year old woman in that there's probably, there's probably sexual compatibility, or they wouldn't have been in a relationship at all, but at some point those guys match on an energy level that is way more competitive that shows the man, wow, she's a go getter.
I like that. But she also, She tells me what she wants, flat out. She just says, I like this. I want this. And the man can go, I can do that.
Liz Herl: So, currently, to speak to what you're talking to there and we always talk a lot about the reels that we review and see online because that's the day and age we're living in, but I have seen this, ironically, like quite a bit in feeds and I'm just like, And I don't know.
I bet my algorithm can never figure out what it is that I'm trying to do because I look at so many different things, so it's like, I don't know what
Tim Caldwell: You're either a psychopath or a militant
Liz Herl: But [00:24:00] It's of younger young men, I would say between the ages of 25 and 35 saying, you want to know why these young men are going after women over 40.
These women know what they want. They say, you know, they're not messing about. They're not, you know, trying to run any game. They're not doing any of this. They're like very direct. And that is the difficulty. It, yeah. In the direct approach because you should know what I want.
Like, you know, you should know. God bless it because I'll tell you that mind reading thing has never in the history of ever worked for anyone. And when you're missing these components as a male, if you're missing areas of vulnerability and that nurturing, caring, and they're like, they're looking at me like I'm supposed to know what they're thinking and I have no idea, and then there's that insecurity that kind of flares up for them of laying like, all right, hold on, let me go through this whole list of things that it could possibly be because the effort is not to let them down or not feel loved or validated or whatever it is in the moment.
But [00:25:00] it's Versus saying, could you just let me know what you're thinking? Yeah, well, you should know what i'm thinking and it's like actually I always tell everyone You know, they said i've had a couple people say as a therapist what superpower would you want would you want the ability to read minds?
Absolutely not. That is horrific. I would never want that.
Tim Caldwell: That's a one way ticket to insanity.
Liz Herl: I was like, no thank you.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. The joke, the joke I've made to you, those, the joke I've made to you is, I listened to a comedian one time, a Christian comedian, and he said, when good Lord pulled that rib out, he took, removed the mind reading skills that men used to have.
And the aspect that, when two, let's say young people are arguing, Okay, well, we're gonna break up. And I go, oh, and the guy goes, okay. And then she's all, what? I mean, it was, it was her idea and, and you said, well, you said you wanted to break up. No, I didn't mean it. I wanted you to fight for me.
Okay. I, we don't understand the rule. The rules are different. The rules are different. Especially engagement.
Liz Herl: And this kind of goes into the makeup of how men's brains [00:26:00] are really configured and structured, that it is really challenging to understand. That they think completely different than a woman.
Tim Caldwell: Right, right.
Liz Herl: And that the expectations, like, just, it's really quite simple and no offense intended. It's literally mission oriented. Like, if you tell me three things, I'm on it. Like, I know what I need to do, versus like, I have to guess. Like, are we doing this? Are we? That leads to so much, discomfort.
Like, I'm trying to manage what it is. Versus like, here's three things I need done. Here's three things I'm gonna do. And you're like, alright, perfect, thanks. But there's, I think, this romanticized idea from Hollywood, and everything else, and how those relationships are supposed to work, and they don't.
Tim Caldwell: I've, I've, yeah.
So as we talk about the hemispheres and their relationships and development, right sided, left sided, creativity versus purpose driven or function. I would, I don't, I don't, haven't done their research, but I can just tell you that [00:27:00] most men are They're more on function, problem solving. Women have more of a creative and highly, and are highly emotionally attached to what they do and what they say and in their communications.
We know that by how many words a woman may say typically versus a man in, in his practice or his daily life. However, the interesting thing between the man and the woman in problem solving is the woman is far more disposed to the fact that I can do this with the help of others.
And if you'll help me, we'll get this. Whereas a man is, it's kind of this lone wolf hero thing. I'm going to do this, I'm going to take this all on, I'm going to do it all by myself. Now this isn't, this isn't hard and fast, but it's definitely something that people don't understand, especially even the problem solving.
A spouse may turn, a female, the wife may turn to the husband and say, how are we going to do this? He goes, well, I'm just going to work harder and I'm going to do all this. Where the [00:28:00] wife's solution would be, well, why don't we get a loan, hire a contractor, do all these things? And some of those things just aren't suitable.
Now, I start to tip my hand towards my own personal predilection towards how that works is, I like to try to solve things on my own because when, in all of the business I have, it's always been solo. Win or lose, it's just me. And part of it is, I love the success that I did this alone. The other is, I don't want to drag other people down with me.
And that can be a real anchor in a relationship, in a marriage. And that is I don't understand why he's so stubborn. Why don't we just get this done, this like this, and the man is really working hard to do it on his own. To a fault.
Liz Herl: Right, and I would say the problematic areas of that is the lack of communication and understanding of that.
And giving that information to your partner as to why those things are happening and transpiring. But I don't want to get off topic.
Tim Caldwell: No, no, you're right.
Liz Herl: So going back to where we're at here the that, I was talking [00:29:00] about how men are kind of seen as being childish, or they're looking for that role replacement of that nurturing mother.
And that sometimes becomes identified for females when they're in a friendship or a relationship, regardless, either one. And they're like, you know, I don't really like, I feel like I do a lot of attaboys, or I'm very encouraging. And it, that's not the role I want to be in. Because, see if she's wanting that secure masculine role of authority and leadership and security and protection and she feels like I'm shouldering a little bit, more, like there's a, there's an imbalance there and it's not an intentional action from a male but that is due to the lack of what they didn't receive.
Those are things that they unintentionally fall into. Yeah, I understand. The biggest, I would say, point about this is the fear of emotional neglect. When we feel like we're not being recognized. I'll, I'll give this, I think I've said this [00:30:00] before on the show, but I'll tell you, tell it again.
I had a time where my son was playing basketball and he was probably fifth grade or something like that. And he took pretty hard header and the coach was over by him. And I'm sitting there just like, burning up to, but I'm like, no, no, I, you know, fine.
Tim Caldwell: To go to him.
Liz Herl: I wanted to go to him. Yeah. And the instant I heard mom, I was. on the floor like anyone who went away was going to be against the wall because I was like, there's nothing going to stop me in this and I go over and I'm like, okay, buddy, like what's going on? And he was bleeding. He, he was more angry about being hurt than he was about the emotional piece.
But so I take him over to the, the bathroom and he's getting cleaned up and there was a gentleman there that was a dentist and he wanted to make sure his teeth was okay. Which was really wonderful. And yeah. He went into the boy's bathroom and he's like, mom, don't come in here. I'm like, okay, so I like back off.
I'm like, all right, no, no, no, your place. And I'm like, are you okay? You know, and even in all of [00:31:00] that there was, a soft interaction with him of I care about you, and I'm concerned about you, and then he came in and kind of you know pat bandaged himself up, and he's like all right.
I'm going back out there. I'm like that's right you know and so I kind of was doing you know multiple things there But I wanted him to know that this did matter that you were injured yes, and then we kind of
Tim Caldwell: Which is timeless? As long as your son's alive, he will always be your son, and if he called you for help, you would
Liz Herl: Oh, high water. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And and all my children know that.
Tim Caldwell: Yes. Now, the tragedy is, is a son who never had a father.
Liz Herl: Well, or a mother, or the mother role in this capacity of saying, Mothers have a responsibility of showing a different type of affection and protection to their children as fathers do.
And if, I mean sometimes they're missing both, right? Like I didn't have protection from a mother or a father. And so I had to really, you know, assimilate something all on my own. [00:32:00] And when you're speaking to that, like how do I manage that? Well, these are the unintentional, you know, maladaptive patterns that we get into to kind of regulate ourselves to feel love.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, athletics.
Liz Herl: And just some compassion around that.
Tim Caldwell: Athletics is a good, athletics is its own kind of animal. And that there are rules. And that having, having coached plenty in my lifetime. When you watch little guys, you can see a helicopter parent. You can see a helicopter father. He's right there on the sideline with me.
And he's, why isn't my son out there? Why isn't, well that's, that's different. But, especially like in an injury. My, my sons have played sports. My son Alexander was an amazing athlete. He got hurt. The speech to him would be, if I were there on the floor, is, Are you okay? Yeah. Can you play? I think so. Your team needs you.
And I'd cut him free. It's your [00:33:00] choice now. But I'm always, something great, you're a part of something greater. Go apply yourself. Can you or can't you? If you, if you, if you can't, you can't. The coach will see you, but you can't. But the rules are, quite simply, I can't go out and play for my son. That's, the helicopter or snow plow parent.
I'm going to go out there and I'll show you what my son can do vicariously. Well, that's not going to happen and vice versa. The son can't do it. You know, some parents are terrible athletes and they want all this for their kids because he's living out my dream, but that's another, that's a whole nother rap.
But the notion that the mama bear thing. It comes to, you're going to add him a sense of compassion. And your son literally just said, Alright, I can do this. He bandaged himself up. If you had an overly emotional mother, that mother may say, What is that coach doing? He's driving you into the ground. He's making excuses, excuses, and everybody's to blame about your little [00:34:00] darling got hurt.
And men have a hard time. I have a hard time actually literally digesting that. Is it, it seems like so much damage when everybody out here is the same risk. We all take this, we're all taking the same risk. That's what's interesting is it's, sports in itself have their own rules and it's, you literally get to witness.
The best of players and the worst of players, the best of decisions and the worst of plans. You get to see all these things come together. A winner and a loser. How does the winner handle the loser? How does the loser handle the winner? And I don't, you know, for a long, long time sports were just male.
And then female sports came in. And the rules still apply, but As it comes from those, those parents that are sitting in the stands, they're trying to guide their children. And this is another realm of that experience in life.
Liz Herl: Right. Well, and the [00:35:00] example I was giving there was really back to the understanding of showing what ideally hopeful emotional security is versus emotional insecurity, like he could be upset, he could be wounded and I could acknowledge all of that, and that, and by no means I just want to go on record, I am no perfect parent or anything of that nature, I have, everyone has their flaws, but just wanting to give an example of the absence of that which is leading to that emotional neglect of feeling like I don't know how no one's ever encouraged me when I've been wounded in any capacity, emotional or physical.
And those that carries into adult relationships where men become highly sensitive to emotional withdrawal and may crave constant reassurance from their partners. Like I, it's that, that goes into that dependency piece. Like I need to know that you value me. I need to know that you see me as a man. This is how I am a man and you need to, or that is your, you need to shoulder all of that responsibility.
It's like, hold on. And that's where a female is like, wait a [00:36:00] minute. How is that all my responsibility? Or depending on her level of wounds and trauma, she might absorb that and, and try and play that role a little bit. But it's all very unproductive and not suitable for either partner. Yeah. Because at some point it's, it's gonna be destructive.
Tim Caldwell: The, the nice takeaway I have from the story that you just told and what I might relate on perspective is simply that in your son's need, he could call on his mother and you were there and not feel better and then go back. The opposite may be true of this, an absentee father. Father's in your life, but he doesn't come to your sporting events.
Now these are some things that played on my heart when I was growing up or when I was raising my sons is that my sons all played sports and I can't make it to all their events. And I missed some really big things. And I, you know, there's always this part of me that I'm going to have this Hallmark moment where the son looks into the stand and I'm not there and he's.
Depressed by that, but the message to them has to be off the court and that [00:37:00] is I can't be there for everything But when I'm there, I'm there and I'll celebrate all your wins and I'll support you and all your losses But I need you to perform for you for you You can't depend on me being in the stands all the time.
Be you. And you're being a part of something bigger than you. This goes into the whole military mentality. This network that
Liz Herl: And you're speaking more to that male role
Tim Caldwell: Absolutely I am. That's the only position in this 50 50 arrangement that I'm qualified to speak to.
Liz Herl: Right.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: Absolutely. But going back Again. That dependency that starts when I need that emotional feedback, and I feel like that is unfortunately something that I see happen a lot is the weaponization of emotional withdrawal when, and this happens on both sides of the field, if you will, that if I feel like if from a male or female's perspective, this can go either way.[00:38:00]
If there's something that was not met. I will withdraw any form of affection or emotional feedback to you, because you've let me down. And then you weaponize that and that becomes where someone becomes clingy and overly.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. ~I~
Liz Herl: You know, I'm striving for those bread crumbs again, because I just need to know, you know, I think that you're amazing.
I need to know. I hear, you know, I feel, safe with you. I feel secure with you or your, whatever it is. And so then there becomes this desperation for a male to really extend themselves. And then they're like, Oh my God, why are you blowing up my phone all the time? It's like, I love you. I love you. I love you.
And it's all like, love bombing is a lot what they're talking about today. But we also have to talk about in all these terminologies we're using. Where that comes from, why love bombing happens, and all the deficiencies that individuals have, both male and female, that's why I get into this role is because I'm starving for something, or [00:39:00] I'm missing something, whatever it is, and then I start getting overwhelmingly, like, you know, like I said, I'm, what are you doing today?
How's it going? You know, there's not much, it's kind of funny because, there's not a lot that always happens in a day, and I don't sometimes like there's like not a lot to talk about I mean, it's kind of like a day to day, but it's just like well imagine that person that's like, Hey, well, same day, different course kind of thing.
Or it's like, well, but you don't tell me what's going on and you're not telling me how you're feeling, you know, you're not telling me what are you keeping from me? I was like, I literally have nothing again. This goes both sides of the court as you know, I feel like you're withdrawing and now it definitely is.
Unintentional weaponization, because I'm feeling insecure because of my lacking, not because I can identify it, by the way, because this is unhealed pieces, but that's, I'm just kind of sharing that to our listeners and viewers, that's where the potential comes from.
Tim Caldwell: [00:40:00] Somewhat of what I hear in your explanation is, I have to do this all day.
I don't want to come home and have to explain my day to you. I, I literally have left it at the office or on the construction site or in the workshop where it is. I really don't want to over, I don't want to go over this with you. And that can, that can seem like a withdrawal. But when things come down, when, when the emotional fatigue wears out and you get yourself all leveled out and you're better rested.
Let me tell you about my day yesterday. That seems like a much better time. It's always a better time to approach something when your emotions are way, they're tuned way down and you're thinking more logically.
Liz Herl: Right. If you have the ability to communicate.
Tim Caldwell: If you have the ability, yeah.
Liz Herl: Because there's nothing wrong with saying, listen.
And it's, you and I both have shared we have talkers in our family specifically my children, I can come home no matter what I, as you know, I have late evenings and I'll come home and my girls are ready to kind of rattle off the the stories of their lives and I'm just like, okay, so, but I, but I have the [00:41:00] awareness to like buckle down and be like, I need to feed my girls because I've been gone and those pieces and like, it's what's going on in their lives and their their struggles.
And, you know, if you can just, you know, again, take a few minutes to kind of hear that out and then button that up. There are a lot of times that I'm like, I, when they're just like, Ma, are you listening? And I'm like, I am so sorry, sweetheart, but I am. It is important what you have to say regardless if it's about, you know, the next math class that you can't stand.
But I just need a few minutes to kind of give me, you know, like, give mom a few minutes like I communicate. I'm not perfect. I'm tired things like that.
But Again, if you're not shown this you're not see you're not experiencing this. You don't know how to maneuver it Yeah, so you go with what you know, and sometimes what you know,
Tim Caldwell: So we're speaking now from parent to child
Liz Herl: Mm hmm.
Tim Caldwell: I too have one if you like my youngest son We have it's cute because I will I [00:42:00] literally have a sign for him it is this, this, and he'll go, okay, and he'll get to the point, right? That's lovingly and jokingly telling him, okay guys, get to the point, right?
But , the point is, is that my sons understand that I'm more, I like you give me the factual highlights, And then you can fill in all the stuff when I have questions and all that stuff.
If you want to expand, go ahead. But when we have time, at supper or whatever, I'm kind of in a rush here, let's do this. Not that I use being in a rush as an example, but it's just, it's just teaching him that not everybody needs to hear a movie credit to credit, and that's, that's, that's how my son Alexandria is.
But, now let's use this as an example, to a man to a woman. A man may not share much of his day, at all. And he just comes in and his head's shoved into his shoulders and he's, he's just worn out and he, he's grumpy and he's, [00:43:00] you know, he's kicking his boots off and he's, you know, I'm, I'm kind of making a bad model or even an example for men, but I, I come from a working family where we all work very hard and that didn't come from not all of that came from higher education, it came from just literally getting your hands dirty.
Well, the spouses at some point know how to read the room, and my father who he was, he was like a, in his day when I was a kid, he was just a volcano. He just, he just needed something to explode on all the time, and he was a loving father and a loving husband, but when he got like that, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, We spoke when we were spoken to, and if we, if he needed something, he asked us.
Liz Herl: But that was your family dynamic.
Tim Caldwell: That's my family dynamic. But spouse to spouse, I never saw him yell at my mother. She could see, how was your day? You know, that question never existed. But if that question was, how was your day, [00:44:00] she could read the room. And what she'd do is she'd see to his needs, and she'd see to his needs as a, as a you know, as a loving wife, not overdoing, I made your favorite meal, I made your, she just did what she did because that's what she knew he needed just to relax.
Liz Herl: Right.
And again, I like that you're speaking to this because you're talking about your experience in seeing a female. Exactly. In your upbringing. That's exactly right. And so that, that again, correlated and started you started translating that information into self. Okay. So this interaction is how this works Mm hmm, and then no doubt that played a major role as you transpired into adulthood and going in looking at that nurturing of the your core desire to have that nurturing aspect men often get I would say misunderstood, I don't know, or unrecognized.
That men actually want to feel really safe in the relationship with their partner. And there's a lot of safety that's always discussed about [00:45:00] female to male. I want to feel like if I'm, you know, if I'm walking down the street, well sometimes in this day and age there's a lot of misunderstanding around that, but if I'm walking and something looks I, I can take, you can take the role in the lead and move me over to the side or do whatever.
I will
Tim Caldwell: Take one step back.
Liz Herl: Right. I, I'll, you know, not to go off of segue into where we're not at. That's what I'm trying to say. That my my daughter's mentioned that when she always thinks it's cute and funny, but I have to help her recognize what that means she's like when my boyfriend we're walking down the road and he always walks towards where the traffic is I mean, he always moves me over on the inside and just like oh anything and I'm like, no that's actually what I supposed to do.
Yeah, that's right. That's what I can use. She's like, oh my god, that's That's good. I'm glad to hear that. Yeah, that's, that, that is. And he, he's supposed to move you on. That's what you're, 'cause he's like, it's fine. I'm just, and she's just walking down the street chatting away and he's like,
Tim Caldwell: This is this, all this conversation is ancient. It is ancient.
Liz Herl: It is, but it's missing.
Tim Caldwell: Opening the [00:46:00] door, opening the door for a woman. It's just like helping her up on her mount.
Having a woman step to the side is a man in armor walking through a bunch of men in armor and he's making sure he's defending his. Most valuable asset in the best way he can.
He's got his head on a swivel. He's, this is ancient, ancient stuff, but the, the point that I really want to take away from this, and I've told you this before, and that there comes in a man's life, it's not that complicated in the roles that we play as we interact, is that there used to be the hunter gatherers and the women took care of the camp.
Now, that got all twisted into, I'm doing his laundry, I'm doing, and it got, okay, I get it. We all have our jobs, but most importantly, when things get bad, are you going to pick up a spear? Are you going to go fight the bear?
Liz Herl: Well, and I'll tell you in today's day and age, yeah, I will.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, I know, but my point is, my [00:47:00] point is, is when times allow it.
And a man comes home from hard work, or from frustrating work. It's not hard work, it's just mentally laborious. Because it's, there's so much bureaucracy, or backstabbing, or whatever the thing is. That's more exhausting than physical work. There's nothing more pleasurable to a man to know that in, in my home, my camp, I can put down my shield, and put down my sword.
And I'll close my eyes and not feel like I'm going to be attacked. That's really important. It's really important.
Well, and that's the area of safety that an individual might be seeking. Because I know that I can, I can release here. I can, I can be at rest here. That, you know, I'm off the battlefield, if you will.
And when that's It's something that you're constantly striving for in your counterpart, in this case a female, [00:48:00] that I'm seeking that safety within you. How do I construct or educate or communicate that if I don't maybe even know how to do that? And that becomes like, you know, the obsession of I'm striving for safety in this relationship and I've got to kind of figure out how that looks.
And if I'm not taught the communication skills or the language on how to engage with that then I'm already at a disadvantage right there.
You, you are right. And the one, the thing I would like women to understand about, in the example that I just gave, is when we talk about a man in his man cave, it's his safe spot.
Hmm.
And it could be a chair, it could be a room, it could be his garage, it could be whatever. I It's, that's their sanctuary. And in that is just let this be mine. And I know that's an odd [00:49:00] thing to, it's an odd thing to try to propose that. In our relationship, we would split everything 50 50, but this will always be yours.
Well, it's just like your closet. It's just like a woman's closet, a woman's shoes, a woman's Let's say we wear, let's say men and women wear the same size shoe and a guy starts wearing his women's shoes to work because my boots got a hole in them. Well, those were my shoes. This, this ownership of what we own and what we think is is ours and they're valuable to us.
It's just like a man in his space. And that quiet time is a time to reflect and decompress and whatever he needs to do. And the nice thing is, is when a female can understand that men need that more than women. Women would rather call up their girlfriend and let me tell you about my day. As where a man would just shut up.
Liz Herl: Well, and I think this goes right into the next part of the difficulty in handling stress independently. If you're unaware how to manage your own emotions or your own feedback [00:50:00] to self, I guess. In that, due to the lack of that modeling in front of you, in, or seeing maybe an unhealthy model of how that, how you handle stress.
Like for instance, if someone comes in from their day and it's like, okay, yeah, well you are at work all day. Well I did this all day. And so there's no like understanding or consideration around that. And it becomes a, I always tell people about a tally system, like, okay, we'll tip for tap tip for tap versus like just saying we can both recognize we're both really tired from our day.
Right. And like, what do we need to do? Well, men typically have a hard time handling that stress because then they're putting on a different hat that in has a different workload. And it's like, I don't want another workload. I'm ready to actually release myself from a workload. So I don't know they're highly more irritable.
They're more reactive, verbally reactive. And then it's like, why are you yelling at me? Oh my god, why are you being so [00:51:00] mean? And it's just like, I don't know what it is that you want. And, and sometimes it becomes very unhealthy and very volatile. So, it,
Tim Caldwell: What do you want for supper? I don't know, what do you want?
Whatever you want. No, could you just make it a cereal? Right. And the guy goes, I'll eat whatever you want me to eat. Well, okay, how about this? And then, and then you go, yeah, that sounds good. No, I don't want that. We don't need that confusion. Right. If you want to feed me rocks, feed me rocks.
Liz Herl: That's where, you know, like, I don't, men get vilified as being these
Tim Caldwell: He doesn't care.
Liz Herl: Well, no, it's, yes, he doesn't care, but like this animalistic, you know, when you walk in the door, you're ready to bite my head off. Yeah. Versus like what may have have gone on in their day. And when they're ready, I don't know how to handle any more stress. And if I come in, no one enjoys going in from one dynamic to another.
Yeah. That especially emotional, like it's different, like your, your work relationships versus like, well, my wife's really upset with me or my girlfriend's [00:52:00] upset with me or my partner's upset with you. And now I have to go in and I have to manage that. And it's like, and at some point you're not managing yourself very well specifically relating to our topic today because of the lack of education on how to do so.
With that emotional awareness This kind of goes into you're, we're seeking those maternal dynamics, I, we, I kind of touched on that where you're unintentionally looking for that balance of the mother figure to encourage you to, to, you know, make you feel like you're important and you know, how what happens there?
So then there's the perception that women are caregivers and like you're here to take care of me And this is what you're supposed to do versus like a partner. You're supposed to be side by side with right, right?
And caregiving is part of that.
But misunderstanding around what that actually looks like when you're when you haven't had the representation in a healthy format.
Hmm it leads to really high expectations of [00:53:00] And this is a longer conversation because generationally when we think about what we were taught when, you know, Wagon Wheel's days when they came home from the fields and she had supper on the table for him and, and things of that nature, it's that, that was a shared understanding of the dynamic that wasn't power and control, which is being misconstrued today, but of when I walk in, it's like, my woman's going to have my food ready and all this nonsense.
Again, that's gotten twisted and really misrepresented as there was an understanding of what was going on in the home when he came home and things of that nature. But when you are looking for because of the lack of security within self for Mel specifically, like I want to be babied. I want to be, you know, I talked to you about this in the setup of the discussion around man colds like how they're like super big babies.
Tim Caldwell: Like a woman can have her arm cut off and she's still out there [00:54:00] doing everything. And a guy. Yeah. Yeah.
Liz Herl: Well, there's a reason for that.
Tim Caldwell: I got a cold.
Liz Herl: Yeah, there's a reason for that though. Like, I know specifically that it's super not favorable for a woman to be like, Oh my God, I got, he's not feeling well, I cannot even.
Oh my goodness. Like, get over it. Which there, there's some facts there, however, there's also some considerations too.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: Who doesn't want to feel cared for sometimes. Right. It's, again, this is, I'm talking about the unhealthy You know, excessive neediness of that, versus like a healthy balance of saying, you know what, I get you're not feeling well, like, you know, let me have some consideration, but,
Tim Caldwell: You know, I'm going to boil that down into something even more fundamentally basic.
And that is, when a man doesn't feel good, he feels weak. And, a weak man is a dangerous man. And when he feels so fragile, He just, he's going to shrink back. If a woman's there to take care of him, he'll take every advantage of it. And I'm, I'm not going to take the man's side because it's no [00:55:00] fun being sick.
But when I don't feel sick, I just shut it all down. I just take care of myself and do my own thing. But I've seen women They're in really bad shape, and they go to work over and over. They take care of the kids, they take care of all this. They're, that's a different kind of strength. And it's one a man needs to recognize.
And it's, it's, hopefully it's something that a woman recognizes. Is that, you know, five days a week, that guy's in this mill, busting his butt to put food on our table. I can do my share, if he's willing to do that.
Liz Herl: Yeah.
Tim Caldwell: And that's the simple message. Yeah. That's the simple message to that.
Liz Herl: You know, and as you know, we're wrapping up here I the goal of just kind of reviewing this and giving consideration to males and men around that again this is a delicous to be delicate to yourself around this self aware like maybe you know, this isn't There's a reason why we respond the way we do.
Tim Caldwell: Mm hmm.
Liz Herl: There's a reason why [00:56:00] we expect what we expect
Tim Caldwell: that's exactly
Liz Herl: And if we could maybe say maybe this is a I maybe was missing this and I really seek this out in my partner because I never had this and I unintentionally have them Shoulder the responsibility of that and that actually I'm seeing why we're having so much conflict around that now And that i'm not a baby or i'm not whatever That I I might have missed some pieces and the education of that within any dynamic or working relationship an intimate relationship, whatever it may be of awareness for yourself.
So my I guess my parting ideas or, or thoughts are this, that it's understandable why when men do not have that role model of a, a nurturing and caring female role, whatever it may be, mother or grandmother or whatever, they tend to unintentionally manifest those desires and needs for validation and affection, emotional support, and emotional articulation from [00:57:00] females at a higher capacity.
That I'm going to make you responsible for because this is an inadequacy me and as you shared, men do not like being inadequate. Yeah. So there's a high big, there's a high amount of, you know, pressure put on your partner unintentionally and just, you know, take a moment to kind of think about that and say, you know, again, this isn't like assassinating yourself or going after your own person, but giving yourself some awareness around, you know I, of course, love The Office, and there's a great line in there, Why are you the way you are?
It's a whole other scene, but there's a reason why we are the way we are. And if we could look at it through a compassionate lens versus a judgmental one, that would be my encouragement.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah I think it's Tony Robbins who once quoted that the level of your, or the quality of your life is the level of your communication, right?
The better you can communicate what goes on in your life, what's your concerns or your wants or your needs, the to your partner you're probably going to [00:58:00] have a better understanding between both, and doing it frequently. And not, not letting things accumulate until they become these monstrous things, these dragons we can't, we just cannot defeat.
Because that's where these small things fester into, these giant things, and then we find ourselves with this huge divorce rate that we have. Rushing into an arrangement with somebody who you think you're, madly in love with, and it's your first love. I always give caution to people that they weigh the, weigh the, weigh the responsibility of what you have to do in life versus what they have to do and what you have to do together.
For a young mind, that's almost incomprehensible because they, they have no education or anything to compare it to. They may see their parents struggle, but we, young people don't understand what it takes for their parents to get them to where they are, especially if they've moved up economically. Let's say you're first, second, [00:59:00] or third generation Italian Chinese.
They come to this, they come to this country with, And they all have to work. But in all likelihood, it was the man breaking his back while the woman took on the same types of chores. If you study socioeconomic development between men and women, in a hundred years, remarkably, most all of the same jobs are occupied by women. as they then . As they do know hasn't changed much. Mm-hmm. It's because we are different animals. Mm-hmm . And if we ex, if we expect to get along, we're gonna have to communicate our special needs. And
Liz Herl: but the only way we can communicate our special needs if we know what they are.
Tim Caldwell: That's exactly right. And so that's up to you to know that too.
Liz Herl: That's what I'm saying. That's the self I, that's my encouragement. Review, review yourself and do so delicately and kindly.
Tim Caldwell: Agreed. Good, great topic. Liz, we could talk more and more about this.
Liz Herl: Yeah, and we'll always expand on it. As always, we just ask that you go in and look us up on [01:00:00] the old socials and like us, comment, reply, do whatever it is, do the thing you do.
And just be kind to yourself. Always, always be kind to yourself.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, that's true. Mine is I always try to make people understand that there's you're, you're God's creation. You're unique in every way, shape, and form. Take care of yourself, and I mean that because somebody else probably needs you whether you know it or not They need you so do the very best you can and we'll always we'll keep this up as long as we can afford to
thanks Liz, see you guys bye
Liz Herl: bye