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Brief Summary of Show:
In this episode of The Silvercore Podcast, Travis speaks with Ryan Steacy from IBI Barrels to answer all your questions that we received about rifle accuracy and precision.
If you have a story that would be of value to the Silvercore audience, or know someone who does, email us at podcast@silvercore.ca. We would love to hear from you!
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I'm Travis Bader
and this is The
Silvercore Podcast.
Join me as I discuss
matters related to
hunting, fishing,
and outdoor pursuits
with the people in
businesses that comprise
of the community.
If you're new to
Silvercore, be sure to
check out our website,
www.Silvercore.ca where
you can learn more
about courses, services,
and products we offer.
As well as how you can
join The Silvercore
Club, which includes 10
million in North America
wide liability insurance
to ensure you are
properly covered during
your outdoor adventures
To quote the late, great
Colonel Townsend Whelen,
"only accurate rifles
are interesting", in
that vein, I'm once again
joined by Ryan Stacey.
The sixth time
national service rifle
champion, and director
of directions for
international barrels.
International barrels
mix high-end precision
rifle barrels and we're
going to talk about the
facts and myths of making
your rifle into tack
driver, whether that's
for hunting purposes or
long range competitions.
This is going to be a fun
podcast because we have
a number of questions
that you, the listener
have asked, and we're
going to go through
them and answer as many
as time will allow.
For anyone listening,
who isn't aware of,
how you can contact
us with your questions
or podcast topic
suggestions, simply email
podcast@silvercore.ca.
Or even better, reach
out through social
media, Instagram,
Facebook, we don't have
a Tik Tok account, yet.
If you want to reach
international barrels
directly, they're also
all over social media,
or you can get them at..
Support@IBIbarrels,
info@IBIbarrels, or you
can email me directly
Ryan@IBIbarrels.
Perfect.
.Com
We put out a couple
of questions to
people, we're asking
them about, what do
they want to know?
What do they want to know
to make their firearm.
That's right.
More precise or
more accurate and.
Yep.
I was thinking maybe
we should start with
the difference between
accuracy and precision.
I can take that one
away if you want.
Sure.
All right.
Give me your ideas.
So not even my
idea, we'll just go
straight to Wikipedia.
Okay, here we go.
So accuracy is
a proximity of
measurement results
to the true value.
So IE.
How close are we
to the bull's-eye?
Sure.
Precision is the degree
to which repeated
or re reproducible
measurements under
unchanged conditions
show the same results.
IE.
What's your grouping
Good grouping size.
Yeah.
So as marksman, you want
to combine or marry both
accuracy and precision.
That's right.
Nice group size,
in the bullseye.
Exactly.
So with those basic
definitions out of the
way, we got a whole
slew of questions.
Yeah we get a few.
Yeah.
It was good.
A couple repeats, which
is good because it means
that there are some
popular questions here.
Why don't we start
off with what you
guys got an Instagram.
Okay.
So.
We had a guy by the name.
He goes by impactshootin.
Yeah.
That's Pete, he's
in South Africa.
Hey Pete, this
is for you.
He's a, he's a bad
bad-ass PRS shooter
down there and hunter.
Nice.
He shoots our barrels.
Surprisingly enough.
Surprisingly enough.
Of course he does.
Gain twist barrels.
Is there any merit there
or marketing fluff?
Okay.
So I think there is merit
to gain twist barrels
in a couple of ways.
I think that gain
twist barrel well.
Okay first of all,
we should probably
explain what a gain
twist barrel is.
That's a good
place to start.
Yeah, okay.
So gain twist barrel
is a barrel that starts
at a slow twist rate
and speeds up as it
gets to the muzzle.
So the idea there is
that you start with
slower rotation in
the beginning as the
bullets entering the
rifling from the throat.
And as it progresses down
the barrel, the twist
rate of the barrel speeds
up to give you that
stability at the end.
Now, I guess the idea
is that well a couple
of things, first of
all, it may impact the
amount of torque that
gets put out on the
gun, because if you're
taking a well, probably
a heavy projectile in
particular, and you're
jamming it into a fast
twist right off the get
go, it may incur a bit
more recoil or a bit
more torque on the gun.
So that's one thing.
So we start with a
little bit slower twist
rate in the beginning,
the projectile enters
that and then as it
progresses down the
barrel, it speeds up.
So it may impact
the torque.
Now whether that's
reality or not, I
I've never shot a
gain twist barrel, to
be honest with you.
I don't know whether
that's a factor.
Whether it's even
measurable is another
question maybe in the
really big calibres
that might be.
Didn't gain twist
start with artillery?
I think it did yeah.
Way back in the day.
Like the Lee Harvey
Oswald with his
carcano right?
Was it car-can-o?
Or the carc-a-no?
Carc-a-no.
Yeah, that's what I've
been told that it's
properly pronounced,
but I don't know.
Car-can-o, that's what
I always called it.
I believe that
was a game twist.
Was it?
I believe so, wasnt it?
That was a Six-five
something or
other wasn't it?
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah, that's probably
a whole 'nother podcast
right there because I
have my own theories
on what went on
with all that stuff.
So we probably don't
want to devolve into
that just quite yet, but.
That would be
a fun podcast.
Yeah, we should
because there's stuff.
I think that people
don't understand about
guns and you look at
the stuff that's on
YouTube and I just shake
my head half the time.
It wouldn't do this.
It would do, you know,
his head would explode in
this direction and it's
like, Oh my God, people,
do you know anything
about internal ballistics
or, you know, physics.
Well, let's leave
it to the listeners.
If you guys want to
hear about that episode.
Yeah, let's do
a Lee Harvey.
Yeah.
Let's, give us an
email, comments, but
let us know that that's
where you want to go.
Okay.
So back to gain twist,
so we've got somewhat
the possibility of
recoil mitigation.
But the one that makes
a little bit more sense
for me is projectile
deformation, basically.
So if you're going to
jam a projectile into
a fast twist and torque
on it immediately, out
of the chamber, then
I think probably the
chances of deforming
the bullet a bit more.
I don't really, I'm
not really sure how
that would work, but.
Is IBI set up to make
a gain twist neural
do gain twist rifling?
No, so the only
way you can do gain
twists rifling, so
far, is through cut
rifling and computer
controlled, cut riflers.
With a button rifling
or any of the other
varieties, well, you
can probably do it with
a hammer forge, but it
might be, let's see on
a mandrel, you might
not be able to do it on
a hammer forge either.
So cut rifling can cut
any twists, like the
guys at Bartlein, you can
order a one in 7.93264.
Hmm.
Twist barrel and
they can do it needs,
they programming
in a way you go.
Right.
With button rifling
because you're pulling
a button through a
barrel you can't, yet.
And it uses
that button too.
Yeah.
So the button pulls
through at one rate of
speed, the twist rate
is cut into the button.
Right.
As well as you are also
turning the barrel at the
same time, at the same
twist rate as the button.
I guess another type of
rifling would be ECR.
Have you ever
seen that done?
I haven't.
No.
I was at a factory in the
States at Springfield,
Massachusetts.
Smith & Wesson
factory, their doin'
pistol barrels.
Mhmm.
And they had, I forget
how many it was, I don't
know maybe 80 barrels
sitting in this bath.
I think it was
kerosene or something.
Yeah something like that.
Yeah.
And they all had these
mandrels in them and
they flipped a switch,
you see a bunch of
bubbles come up, in about
I don't know, 15, 20
seconds they just rifled.
Yep.
Those 80 barrels.
So for those folks
that don't know
what ECR is, this
electrochemical rifling.
So it's kinda, what's
that type of, uh.
Kinda like EDM?
Yeah.
It's like EDM.
Yeah.
Right.
Exactly.
That's basically
what I was.
Electrostatus Discharge.
Yeah it's kind of
the same idea so.
I'm not sure exactly
how it works, but that
might be something that
would be very interesting
with really hard steals.
For example,
machine gun barrels.
Man have we gone way
off track here already.
We sure did.
How are we going
to get through all
of these questions?
Jeez I don't know.
We have a lot.
This is crazy.
Okay.
Well let's get
right back onto
.
Okay.
Let's go back to
the gain twist.
Yeah.
So do you feel thumbs
up, thumbs down?
What?
Yeah.
I think it has
it's validity yeah.
So less deformation
on the bullet.
Probably jamming it
into a hard, fast lands
right off the get-go,
maybe better to do it a
little more softly and
then spin it harder as it
gets towards the muzzle.
So I don't think
it's fluff.
Like I said, I've
never shot one so I
don't know whether
it's more accurate.
I highly doubt that
it is because I'm not
seeing any accuracy
difference between cut
rifled, hammer forged
or buttoned overall.
As long as you pay
attention to the other
parts of the process
to make the barrel.
The stress
relief process.
Stress relieving
is a huge thing.
And then you know, having
a hone is a huge thing.
You can't get the
same results just by
an lapping that you
can with at hone.
Well, we're going to
talk about lapping as
well later, but let's,
do you want to jump in
top the next question?
Okay, let's do it.
We've got one.
Sorry, Pete, I
blew that one.
CRLewisContracting,
22, way to plug your
own business here,
I love that spirit.
That's really
smart actually.
Nice.
.22 long rifle.
Your specifications
say that within
0.0001" to 0.0002".
One 10,000th of an inch.
Which is extremely
consistent.
Yep.
Many people talk about
22 long rifle barrels
needing a choke.
Yep.
With this consistency,
are your barrels
not choked?
And is it
really required?
That's that's actually
a great question.
Good job
CRLouisContracting.
So yes, back in the day,
when they were strictly
hand lapping barrels, you
can choke the barrel a
bit by holding the lap a
little bit short or doing
more strokes through the
barrel so that you get a
bit of a pinching effect.
Now with 22 barrels,
you're shooting
lead projectiles.
So as that sucker goes
down in the barrel,
it's going to resize
basically to any tight
spot in the barrel.
And if it's tight
in the beginning and
then loose towards the
muzzle, it's going to
be like throwing a hot
dog down a hallway it's.
Right.
In micro terms.
Right.
It's going to
rattle down there.
So the idea was that you
would choke the muzzle
and you would make sure
that the muscle was
the tightest part of
the bore so that, when
that sucker leaves it's
doing its thing right?
So with the hone, you
don't really need that
anymore because the
bore is very consistent.
The Sun and Guys are
the guys that make
the hone for us.
They say that you can
get down to a millionth
of an inch somehow.
I don't know
how you would.
Wow.
Even measure that.
And honestly, I don't
think it really matters
10,000ths or 2/10ths.
That's crazy.
Is pretty crazy, but
it's measurable so
you can measure it.
So as long as we have
that consistency all
the way through the
baer, then we're finding
that you don't really
need to have a choked.
And we monkeyed around
with hand lapping and
holding the laps short
so that you get a bit
of a pinch on the end.
And again, it's like
maybe a 10 thou or maybe
2/10ths at the end.
So it doesn't really
make too much difference.
Actually you know,
there's another thing
that people ask about 22s
all the time and it's
Hey, muzzle threads, I
want to, I want to either
put a can on the end.
I want to put a fake can.
Sure.
I get that a
lot in Canada.
I want to put muzzle
break, I'm not sure why
you would put the muzzle
break on the 22 other
than it looks cool.
Right.
The LCF.
Yeah, the LCF.
So that's fine.
You can do it, but I
will tell you that the
closer you spin your
profile to the bore of
the axis of the bore.
So the tighter you get,
so the thinner, the
barrel you get, the
more chance you have
of growing the bore.
So the bore will actually
expand a little bit.
If you spend close to it.
Right.
Now, you can defeat
most of that via
excellent stress
relieving processes.
But it's not necessarily
the best thing to do
on a barrel when you're
spinning half 28 threads
on a 22 barrel, that
doesn't leave you a
lot of meat to keep
things nice and tight
at the muzzle, which
is the most important
part of the 22 barrels.
So people ask why we
don't really recommend
threads, like you can
run them if you want.
In our testing, we
haven't really seen too
much difference with
threads and without.
But at the same time,
if you're looking for
the utmost inaccuracy,
I would probably
avoid trying to cut
muzzle threads on
a 22 long rifle.
So just the process of
cutting those threads
on a slimmer profile
barrel will cause it to,
I guess, stress-relieve.
Yep.
And expand just a
minuscule amount.
I don't know if it's
stress relieving and I'm
not a machine is so I'm
not a hundred percent
sure what the factor is
that causes it to grow.
It may just be that
you're removing
materials there.
Right.
And the reality is,
is we're talking about
a few 10 thousands
of an inch in growth.
But when you need that
muzzle to be the tightest
thing possible, a few
10,000's of an inch is
probably not a great idea
to try and take away from
the accuracy end of it.
So I saw there was
a question on the
schnooble there somewhere
on one of these so.
Yeah, we'll get
to that one, but
that'll probably.
It kind of leads into
that so that's why we
have that knob, lovingly
called the Schnooble.
You call it a Schnooble?
Well.
I always call
it a Schnovel.
Yeah, Schnoble is
actually the proper term,
but the way this all
came up was when we first
started doing it, we were
doing a barrel for Doug
Blessin, who's a Canadian
Paralympic shooter.
And he had a Walther
rifle and it had a
knob on the end of it.
And so we're like,
okay, well we gotta
make it the same as his
existing Walther barrel.
And I can't remember how
it came up, but somebody
goes, what's his knob on
the end of it called and
I'm like, I don't know.
And so I remembered
back to my film days
and I remember we were
talking once about the
knob on the end of a
nice wooden stock that
had inlaid bone and
all that kind of stuff.
Right.
And they had called it
well now I know they
called it the Schnabel,
but that had been like
probably, you know, seven
or eight, nine years ago.
And I couldn't
remember what the
heck it was called.
And I said, I think
it's called a Schnooble.
And Tim, the barrel
maker looks at me
and he goes the what?
And I said,
the Schnoodle.
And he's like, how
do you spell that?
And I'm like, I don't
know, just like sch
and a bunch of O's and
Schnooble so, so the
next time it came up,
it was spelled with
three O's and you know,
so it just turned into
this weird Schnooble.
Is it common to have a
Schnooble Schnabel on
the end of a barrel?
Not really, nope.
The Olympic shooters
have them on there
for two reasons.
Number one, to make
the barrel easily
the right size to put
their open sites on.
And number two, you
go back to the half
28 threads to make
sure that the muzzle
is the tightest.
So they'll have that
extra large knob on the
end to make sure that
they don't spin anywhere
near close to the bore
so that you don't get
any bore growth so.
I remember about, I don't
know, 20 years ago, a guy
came into the shop and
he had a firearm and he
wanted it super light.
He's like, can you drill
out the bolt handle?
Can you flute the barrel?
Drill the bolt handle?
Oh yeah, everything.
He wanted it, he's like,
I want this same light
and all right, sure.
Not a problem, see
what I can do right.
And I throw it into the
milling machine, dial
it all in, got it in a
spin index there, and I'm
doing the fluting on it.
And I, fellow says, Hey,
when you, when you're
floating a barrel, just
don't go full depth on
your first and final
cut on each flute
because you're relieving
too much stress, the
thing can come around.
So I'm just, I spin
around and I do a little
bit, do a little bit, and
it's like tightening the
nuts on a tire, right?
Yep.
You'd go opposite
and go around.
Anyways on one
of my final cuts,
something slipped and
everything was looking
great at full depth.
And I start running, I
engage and the barrel
wasn't indexed properly
and it starts running
down and I got short
section, which is going
to be wider than the
rest of the fluting.
I was able to fix the
rest of the fluting
and all look good.
But I had this one
short, ugly section.
I'm like, what do
I do with this?
Right.
Do I just give it to
the guy and say, Hey,
sorry, messed up right?
It's custom.
That's right,
it's custom.
So I thought, well
mhe wants it, he
wants it light.
So put it in the
lathe, dial it all in.
And I just took it
off the front and
thing looked as if
it should have been.
Yeah.
I'd never seen a
barrel that had a big
lumpy, schnoble on
the end of it before.
There you go.
And I thought, well
I'll give it over,
I'll see what he says
and if he doesn't
like it, I'll just get
him a new one, right?
Yep.
He loved it.
So he took it out to
the range and he it
and I'm like, thank God
he loves this thing.
I'm never going to, I
was able to fix this
one and about a week
later a guy comes in,
he says, Oh, I saw this
guy at the range and he
had this really sweet
set up on his barrel.
Can you do the
same thing for me?
Yeah, of course.
Nope.
Yeah.
The mistake turns
into something, yeah.
That's right.
Nope.
That's the well, the
schnooble was kind
of along those lines.
Okay.
Yeah.
It was like just a
silly play on words that
just kind of stuck so.
I love it.
I said it to our
German distributor and
she's like, what's a
Schnooble and I go,
well it's actually
supposed to be Schnabel
and she's like, ah,
Okay, that makes sense.
But what's a Schnooble
and I'm like, I
just didn't know
how to spell it.
All right.
I think that answers it.
No, your barrels
aren't choked and
it's not required.
Yeah.
We don't really need
it once we run the
hone and we handle lap
on top of the home.
Right.
So they're super, super
consistent to the point
where we don't, if we
get a gunsmith that,
like a top end gunsmith
somewhere, for some
example, phones up
and say, Hey, I need
this type of barrel.
I just pull one
off the shelf.
There's no.
Right.
There's no picking or
anything like that,
they're all the same.
Very cool.
Very consistent.
Yeah.
All right, next one.
You have a
rattlingrancher.
Rattlingrancher.
Rattlingrancher,
barrel length, short
or long for accuracy,
which is better?
These are all rabbit
hole questions.
I know.
Here we go.
Wait, wait for this one.
Okay, so for accuracy,
it really depends
in my opinion, on
what you're doing.
What you're
trying to achieve.
So obviously
shorter barrels are
stiffer, stiffer
leads to accuracy.
So in hunting rifles,
I get guys asking
for super light, thin
barrels all the time.
I would prefer, and
these are all guys
that, you know, 300
metres is like, Whoa,
that was a long shot.
Right.
I would prefer that they
go to a shorter barrel
to cut the weight then
to a thinner barrel.
Right.
Because you get the
stiffness, you get the
accuracy and you're not
really losing too much
in velocity if you went
from say a 24 inch barrel
to a 20 inch barrel or
more, or even shorter.
I mean, we've got this
weird trend right now,
the guys are doing 12
and 1/2 inch, 308's.
Right.
And putting, the guys
at Reliable, put them
on their like Savage
axis and all this
kind of stuff and.
Big fat barrels,
but short.
Well I mean, some of
them are fat, but I
mean, they're short, but
they're still profiled.
They still got a
profile on them, but
they're light anyways.
And they shoot great
out to about 200
metres, I think.
Right.
So the question is short
or long for accuracy.
So I think for
for accuracy, it
doesn't matter.
For precision,
probably shorter and
fatter is better.
Although if you look
at the target rifle
guys and F class guys,
for example, their
barrels are all pretty
much on the F class
side they're anywhere
up to about 30 inches.
Right.
And on the FTR side, they
can be anywhere up to
32, 31 somewhere in there
or the F open I mean.
So those guys are trying
to extract accuracy, but
they're also trying to
keep the velocity where
it cuts through the
wind, because they're
trying to, they're
trying to smack a target
that's anywhere between
600 and a thousand
yards or metres away.
So having extra
velocity, helping you
cut through the wind is
going to be the thing.
So on the question
there, rattlingrancher,
I would say it really
depends on what you're
trying to achieve
with your barrel,
or with your rifle.
If you're shooting long
range, added velocity is
probably a good thing.
If you're shooting short
range, 300 metres, maybe
400 metres, probably
shorter and stiffer
might be the way to go.
Mhmm.
But for me, I think
in the PRS game you
know, 24, 26 is fine.
You don't really need
anything that's super,
super long for that game.
Because the reality is,
is you're not trying
to hit a half MOA
at a thousand metres
you're trying to hit
six, five or six MOA.
Right.
And all you gotta do
is make a hit on it,
doesn't even have to
be in the middle so.
So there's your answer.
Depends.
That was sort of all
over the place wasn't it?
It depends.
What if you had the
shorter barrel, but
a faster powder burn.
Well, I mean, there's
always ways that you
can modify things right?
Right.
So if you're trying
to get more velocity,
you can always change
your powder, but the
action has to be able
to handle it and the
casing has to be able
to handle it as well.
So it's not like you can
super hot rod your 308 in
a 12 and 1/2 inch barrel
to get it going 3000 feet
per second, it's probably
not going to happen.
You'd probably blow
your gun up, but I
mean, there's so many
new powders out there.
You should definitely
experiment to see what
you can get out of it.
Because of a powder that
works good in an a 24 or
a 32 inch barrel may or
may not work really well
in a super short barrel.
So you may want to
play with some, maybe
some little hotter, a
little faster powder,
see where it goes.
Do we want to digress for
a second and talk about.
Again.
Why.
Talk about why.
Sure.
A different powders
like produce
different results?
Yeah, I mean, I'm not
sure I'm an expert on
that kind of thing.
I can give you
my opinion, but.
Sure.
Yeah, so obviously
different powders have
different burn rates.
So as you go to a shorter
barrel, you want to try
and make sure that the
powder is completely
burned within the barrel
and that you're not
ejecting unspent powder
or unburnt powder out
of the muzzle, which
in winter time you can
actually see that at
the range sometimes.
Yeah.
You see black specks
in the snow in front
of your target and
that's probably unburned
powder more than likely
dumping into the snow.
So the idea is to try and
to get a complete burn
in the barrel, while the
projectile is still in
the barrel, so that you
build up as much pressure
on it as much velocity
as you possibly can.
Wouldn't this
basically come down
to barrel harmonics.
Oh for sure.
Definitely.
But I mean, there's a
lot of velocity stuff
in there as well.
The harmonic thing is
kind of a combination
between the bullet and
all the loading processes
and all that stuff.
Okay.
As well.
Well, rattlingrancher.
There we go.
We did a bit of
rattling on that one.
We sure did.
Then we got a Kris Feng.
Finally, I think this
is a normal username.
Oh, there we go.
Yep.
Who's got two here
it looks like.
So first one.
They say that you
need a straight barrel
bore for accuracy.
Is this true?
How straight is the bore?
I thought after drilling,
boring and rifling the
OD, or outside diameter,
of the barrel would be
machine concentric to
the bore between centres,
therefore the bore should
really be straight.
So all barrels should
be very similar in
tolerance and dimensions.
So that was one big
run-on multi question.
So let's break it down
into pieces for Kris.
So you need a straight
barrel bore for
accuracy, is it true?
Well I have seen
thin hunting barrels
that were basically
bowed in the middle.
So I mean, it's very
slight, but at the
same time, back in
the day, they used to
have guys that would
actually bend barrels.
They would come off the
lathe or whatever and
these old guys in their
eighties, they'd look at
it and they'd hold it up
to the light and they'd
look down the bore and
spin it a little bit.
Yeah.
Take it over to you
know, some sort of
a bending press.
And then they'd just
give it a little couple
of paps here and there,
and then they'd stick
it up to the light again
and have a look and see.
So they try to make
them as straight
as possible, but.
So does it need
to be straight?
Well, I mean.
Yeah, I mean it does
need to be straight
and we try and spin
concentric to the bore
with very little run-out.
But you are going to get
a little bit of run out
no matter what you are.
I mean, I've seen hunting
barrels that have 70
foul run out and guys are
like, yeah, that's fine.
Yeah.
Whatever.
And if you're spinning
it between centres,
the chamber end, this
is kind of where I
was going, the chamber
end and the muzzle
end are on centers, so
there may be a bit of
a bow in the center.
Right.
So the reality is it
doesn't really matter
what happens in the
middle as much as
making sure that the
ends are on center and
then you can spin it.
Right.
The Germans, they
made their corner shot
type rifles too right.
Those ones that.
Yeah.
Shootin' around
the corner.
Yeah.
That's right.
Those definitely had
some curve to them.
A little bit of curve.
I think MythBusters
actually did that one.
They saw.
Did they?
Yeah with a 22, and
I can't remember, I
think it was a rifle,
but they bent it and
it was past 90 degrees
and it's still shot.
Wow.
Yeah, that was
pretty cool episode.
I never caught that one.
I'll have to watch it.
Yeah, you gotta
check it out.
Kris Feng's got a
second question here.
He says, is there such a
thing as a hummer barrel
as a hummer barrel?
Yeah, I think
there probably is.
Let's tell them what
a hummer barrel is for
those that don't know.
So a hummer barrel
is just a barrel
that just shoots.
Yeah.
It's kind of this unicorn
kind of thing that
people get they'll, you
know, if you look at
the top end of shooting
a bench rest, F class,
target rifle guys,
they'll buy more than
one barrel at a time.
They'll get them all
screwed on chambered up
and headspace properly,
and then they'll shoot
them all and see which
one shoots the best
and that'll be their
competition barrel.
That would be kind
of the hummer barrel.
And then they'll take
that one off and put
it away and only shoot
it in competitions.
Ahh yeah.
So what makes a
hummer barrel?
I haven't got a clue.
I don't know.
I think sometimes just
the stars align and
you know, pixie dust
gets sprinkled on it.
Right.
A unicorn farts in its
general direction and
it basically is just
a barrel that all the,
everything is perfect
and it shoots and
it doesn't take much
to get it to shoot.
I don't know.
With our stuff, we get
sent pictures of groups
and things that, I don't
even know how the guys
shoot those groups.
Like I can never shoot
groups like that to
groups in the ones
in the low twos.
Right.
Point one, like.
That's crazy.
The guys at PGW sent
me a group the other
day that we did for a
6BR Norma and it was a
0.187 five shot group.
Holy crow.
And I'm like, holy
smokes, I could
never do that, but I
would classify that
as a hummer barrel.
Ahh yeah.
But we probably.
And that's an IBI barrel.
That was ours.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'll take
credit for that one.
There you go.
We get sent stuff
like that all the
time so I don't know.
Maybe it's combination
of good stress-relieving,
good steel to begin with.
And then just focusing
on all the processes
to make the barrel
as good as possible.
Like we don't skip
any steps, we don't
change anything.
Every barrel that comes
through our shop gets
the same treatment.
So maybe that's the
reason why we, we see
lots of hummers on the
Facebook user page and
all that kind of stuff.
Precision tolerances.
Yeah.
Headspacing, I mean.
And chambering
was sharp tools.
Like, you know.
That makes a
huge difference.
Let's do the
right thing right.
Right.
Yeah.
On the headspacing,
are you getting them as
tight as you can and?
Not necessarily no, it
depends on,what the guy
wants to do with it.
For the most part we
try and make them fairly
tight, but we're not
going to make them overly
tight so that they're
only tight on closing.
Right.
But if we get somebody
that says, Hey, you know,
I want you to hold it
a little bit short, or,
you know, I want you
to make the headspacing
as tight as possible.
Okay, sure, we can do it.
And headspacing for
those who don't know is.
It's basically the
relationship between
the bolt face and how
far into the chamber
the cartridge goes.
Right.
And how it butts up
against the shoulder
of the chamber.
You have to be able
to close the bolt.
So, but it can't be
loose at the same
time cause then you
destroy your cases.
Perfect.
Want to jump
over to Reddit?
Sure.
Okay.
user Elendal,
E-L-E-N-D-A-L asks.
I'm curious.
Oh, here we go.
What's the purpose of
a shnobel on a barrel?
Well, Elendal you left
out about three O's
in the pronouncing
of Schnooble.
I think we kind of
went through it all in
the beginning there.
I think so.
It was kind of a goofy
thing, but in the 22 long
rifle barrels, because
you want the muzzle to
be the tightest part
of the barrel and you
can cause a bore growth
by spinning close to
the muzzle or by close
to the bore dimension,
then we just left it a
little bit big on the
muzzle end to ensure
that there's no growth.
Beauty.
Now we've got a
Troycifer_tron
asks any plans on a
barrel in 6.5 PRC.
Well, we had a lot of
plans on those about
eight months ago.
So you're about
eight months behind.
We've been making 6.5
PRC barrels for ages now.
There you go.
I figured you were
already on it.
Yeah, it's a pretty
cool calibre too.
That and the 300 PRC
are both pretty neat.
I might actually have
to build a gun on that.
But yes we can, we can
spin you a seven and
a half twist, which is
good for all the big
bullets, but it'll still
spin 130's+ no problem.
But if you go to a
bigger 65 bullet,
the seven and a half
twists will spin it.
No problem.
So, yup.
Okay.
65 PRC's are already
in the cooker so.
Beauty.
Give us a holler.
Dane-Atello.
Dane-Atello.
Dane-Atello asks, is
there any accuracy
or other differences
between the number of
grooves a barrel has?
Hmm.
Well, I think if
you asked probably a
hundred people that
question, you'd probably
get about a hundred
different answers.
I agree.
Yeah.
But I haven't
really seen any.
We cut most of our
barrels, with 5R
as the standard.
The only one that
we don't cut in 5R
yet is the 6 mills.
And I get asked the
question, how come you
don't do the 6mils in 5R?
And the answer is because
I'd only ever shot a four
group before and I needed
to sort of base it, the
accuracy on something
that I had already
kind of dealt with.
So I just went with four
groove and it works good.
We'll probably going
to get a 5R going
here pretty soon
for some testing and
see how that works.
As far as accuracy goes,
no, the answer is it's
no, basically I haven't
seen any differences as
far as accuracy goes.
Where I do see a bit of a
differences in cleaning.
The 5R style rifling
seems to clean up a
little easier and that's
just, I think because of
the shape of the lands
and grooves, they're a
little bit different,
they're more trapezoidal
than square on the edges
so there's less places
for stuff to hide.
That makes sense.
Yep.
And I think, one thing
that I've noticed is
a lot of people say,
Hey, I know you guys
are little bit faster
than what I'm used to.
I reached the same
velocities I was
trying to get, trying
to find a note at,
with less powder.
So I have a feeling
that the 5R rifling
because of its design,
maybe a little bit
faster as well.
Interesting.
Overall.
Interesting.
Maybe a bit yeah.
All right.
That's a Dane-Atello.
Yep.
Oh here you go.
H3llfir3pho3nix and all
the E's are three's.
Yeah.
Asks, is there any
truth at all to
barrel break-in?
It always struck me as
an extreme fudd lore,
but if there's actual
science behind it,
I'd love to hear that.
Okay.
I think there's a
lot of lore around
barrel break-in.
I think a lot of it
was started by barrel
manufacturers back in
the day, to get you to
burn up a lot of barrel
life, trying to make
the thing, you know,
do all this mythical,
shoot one, clean one.
Yeah, yeah.
And shoot five, clean
five and blah, blah,
and on and on before,
you know it, you got a
hundred rounds through
the thing and you
have never even fired
one at a target yet.
Yeah.
So that takes away
from your actual
barrel life use.
So I think there
is some of that.
There may also have
been somewhere, maybe
you need some examples
where you need a bit of
a break in because the
tooling used to cut the
chamber might not have
been as sharp or as good
as it could have been
and there might've been
some edges or something
along those lines.
I've tried both ways
on a multitude of
different barrels from
different manufacturers.
And I personally
have never seen any
difference, in the just
take it out and shoot
a crowd or the shoot
one clean one for a
hundred kind of thing.
And I've done
it both ways.
I think the reality of
that is, whatever gives
you the mental confidence
to be happy with , your
barrel so that you're
not thinking about that
as a possible reason
why you can't shoot.
I think you should fill
your boots, whatever way,
blows your hair back.
But for me, I just go
by what I see and if you
look at all the pictures
and stuff on the user
page that people send
us, like I just had one
the other day and it
was, this is the first
five shots out of this
barrel, period and they
all went into like 0.5.
Right.
So, I mean, you know,
with no load development,
factory ammo, if
you're shooting 0.5 on
the first five shots
out of the barrel.
You're doing okay.
You're doing fine.
So for, people ask
all the time, this
is a question we get
asked a lot and my
answer is generally
don't worry about it.
Just take it out,
shoot it, shoot your 30
rounds or 40 rounds or
whatever you're shooting
the first day range,
don't worry about it.
Then take it home and
give it a good scrub out.
Use some Wipe Out,
scrub it down to the
you know, to the bare
metal and then carry
on after that and then.
You know, I think
you nailed it.
I think you nailed
it on the head there.
You hit the head, hit
the nail on the head,
hammered on the head.
Hammer, hammer
the nail on the.
I knew, I knew
where you're goin.
You nailed it.
On the confidence thing.
Bout the confidence.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
Yeah.
I'm a very big
believer in that.
If you believe that
your gun's going to do
what it's got to do.
Exactly.
That's a huge part
of the battle.
Well, not only that, I
mean, if you're having
issues and you're trying
to iron out those issues,
the last bloody thing
is, you don't need to be
wondering if you should
have cleaned it a certain
way in the beginning.
Right.
In order to extract
more accuracy out of it.
So whatever works for
you the best, if you
want to clean the crap
out of it for the first
150 shots, fill your
boots, that's good,
I'll sell you another
barrel afterwards.
But for me, it's not
really even a thing
I don't even bother.
Is there any more, right?
Yeah.
So next question.
Okay.
User
leadpoisonedbrad asks
I hope not.
No kidding.
He says, exactly how
"international" is IBI?
I see.
I expect most of your
business is with Canada
and US, d'all have
much business in other
markets, Europe / Asia?
So International Barrels
surprisingly enough,
is quite international.
We have a huge presence
in Australia and we are
gaining a lot of presence
in, probably the second
biggest place after
Canada, well, maybe in
Australia is Scandinavia.
Right.
So we've caught on like
fire over there and
it's going gangbusters.
We have probably a couple
of gunsmiths in Sweden,
we have the top guy
was using our barrels.
We have a couple of big
companies and one of the
top gunsmiths in Norway,
that's using our stuff.
We've sent barrels
to Finland.
Wow.
Denmark I've
sent barrels to.
Yeah, I think, I think
that's pretty much it.
So the answer
is, yeah, we send
barrels all the time.
I would say Scandinavia
is probably the
third biggest.
Australia, we send a
lot to, we deal with
Cleaver firearms down
there and they pumped
through barrels like
there's no tomorrow.
And then they catch
on really well.
So believe it or
not at the moment,
probably our smallest
market is the US.
Really?
Yeah.
Which is kind
of a weird one.
So just export reg's or?
No, nope, it's
not even that.
They're just set
in their ways.
Yeah, there's
some of that.
I mean, there are
some awesome barrel
makers down in the US.
Sure.
And so, getting people
to switch to an unknown,
somewhat unknown brand
from shooting the
barrel from the company
they've been using for
the last 30 years and
getting good results
from is difficult.
Right.
In places where there are
less barrel makers and
you can produce something
that's awesome and get
it to them in a short
period of time, that
kind of rules of ruse.
So Scandinavia and
Australia are two
perfect examples of that.
That's a no brainer.
Yeah.
It's pretty much a no
brainer over there,
but in the US it's,
people are more,
hesitant to try.
But we're starting
to make inroads
there, which is good.
And I fully understand
why people don't
automatically pick up
another barrel user or
another barrel company.
I was the same way, you
know, I was shooting
Krieger's before and
I'm like, nah, these
things shoot so awesome.
Right.
Unless our own barrel
shoot is good, you
know, I don't want to,
I want to make our own
barrels shoot as good
as what that does.
So that was part
of the process.
So the answer to that
is yes, we're fairly.
You're fairly
international.
Fairly international
at this point.
I mean, we've sent
barrels to South Africa
all over the place.
Pete down in South Africa
shoots our barrels.
There's Pete
again, hey Pete.
Pete.
Asia, not so much yet.
Asian countries, I
find have a lot more
harsh restrictions
on firearms usage.
Right.
There are places like
the Philippines and
I've had some inquiries,
but there's always
some interesting stuff
going on in places like
that, that you really
have to sort of vet
who you're sending to
and quite often we'll
get requests and it
just seems sketchy.
Right.
So I get requests
to send stuff to
Pakistan all the time.
You're in it for
the long haul.
And yeah, I just, you
know, even if it is a
valid request, I just
don't know if us, as
a company really want
to sort of go there.
When there's human
rights abuses and all
kinds of crazy stuff
going on over there.
I didn't really
want to be sending
them a gun parts.
Agreed.
They can figure out
their own stuff.
Yeah.
So we got the next
one, user canadaboi,
B-O-I, asks what's
up with "seasoning"
a barrel for rimfire?
I've heard all about
fouling up a barrel, but
is there any truth to it?
Yeah, I think there
totally is truth to it.
I think when you're
shooting lead projectiles
through rimfire, it
takes a certain amount
of shots in order to sort
of lay down that layer
of lead and fouling.
And why it's different
than, than copper, it
seems with a rimfire led
fouling, to a certain
degree seems to make
the barrel shoot bette.
Copper on the other hand,
not so much, you get
lots of copper fouling
in there, usually your
accuracy goes to crap.
Right.
So there's, there's
definitely something
to have the barrel
seasoned with ours,
I'm finding that it is
probably going to take
at least 500 rounds to
sort of get it there.
There may also be
something to do
with the lube that's
on most 22 ammo.
Right.
Whether that lays
down a layer in the
barrel or not I'm not
a hundred percent sure.
I will tell you this,
that at the beginning
of this stupid virus
thing that we got going
on, I started shooting
my 22 and between then
and now I've put over
10,000 rounds through
it in a few months.
And I went to a match in
Kamloops, the CRPS match,
and I figured, Oh, you
know, I should, I was
cleaning out the action
and the bolt and all
that stuff and I figured,
yeah, maybe I'll pull the
thing through and cause
you know, I probably put
like six or 7,000 rounds
through it at that point.
And I figured maybe I
should pull it through.
So I get up to Kamloops
and I shoot on the zero
target and it's like
five inches off and
I'm like, oh, damn it.
I knew I shouldn't
have pulled it through.
Yep.
So it will change your
accuracy, your point
of impact the more
you pull it through.
I think as the day went
on and I put more and
more rounds through it,
it went back to where
it should have been.
But you know, when
you're at a match, that's
probably not a good idea.
If you want to clean
it, clean it, and then
take it to the range
and re-season it and
re-zero so that you
know you're not going
to get any shifts again.
Do you know what the
coating is that they
put on the bullets?
It's a combination.
It really depends on the
company like Lapua and
SK is like a really oily.
Right.
Lubricant.
But if you go to Eley,
the top end Eley's are
actually, it's some
sort of combination.
I believe it, it
has beeswax in it.
That's wat I was.
Yeah.
It's a different, it's
a much thicker lube on
the Eley top end, Eley
ammo than the other ones.
What about, let's
say Moly, molybdenum.
Molybdenum disulfide.
Yeah.
So I've never seen
that on 22 ammo.
No.
But on centrefire
ammo I have.
Yeah.
There's a couple of
different coatings.
The Moly is one of them.
It's a bit messy, I
think and it takes a
bit to get it on there.
And then the other one
was a hexagonal boron.
Right.
Which I tried and yeah
it's slippery, but
did it extend barrel
life or anything?
I don't really think so.
Right.
You're still, it monkey's
with your velocities
because you have to use
more powder to get the
same velocity as you
do, because you have a
slipperier projectile.
Interesting.
So you have to up your
powder charge to get
the same velocity.
So in my opinion, if
you're upping in your
powder charge, what
you're probably saving
in barrel life from the
projectile going down the
barrel, you're probably
killing in throat wear.
Right.
Anyways right.
Throat erosion.
Yeah, it doesn't
really make any sense
to me, which is kind
of why I think both
of those have slowly
faded away over the
last 10 years probably.
Right.
I know the odd guy
that still uses Moly,
but it's one of those
things where they've
been doing it fo 25
years and it works good.
So I'm not going to stop.
Why change it?
Yeah, why change?
So user
DrinkLuckyGetLucky.
Oh boy.
Asks, how as a
manufacturer do you
make sure your barrels
shoot well enough
to be competitive at
the highest levels.
Gotcha.
Well, that's an
easy question.
Yep.
Well, I dunno easy,
but there's a couple
answers there.
Pixie dust and.
Pixie dust and
unicorn farts.
Uh...no.
So basically the
first thing we do is
we make sure that we
totally control all the
processes, when we're
making the barrels.
So I've talked about
mental management
before, we use that
sort of process in
making the barrels.
So each step along
the way, beit pulling
the button, drilling
the stress relieving,
lapping, running it
on the hone, any of
that kind of stuff.
We make sure that after
that's done the barrel
is a hundred percent the
way we want it to come
out from that process.
And we took a lot of
time and effort to
make sure that when
we are operating
those processes, that
it gives us what we
require in end result.
So when you stack all
those things together
you get the end
result that you want.
In mental management,
you pay attention to the
steps of whatever you're
doing, and you focus on
the performance of those
and then you get the end
result that you want.
Well, it's the same
in barrel making.
So all of the steps
that we take, we pay
a lot of attention to,
and we make sure that
we're good at them.
Then in the end we take
it out and we shoot it.
Yeah.
And we do a
lot of testing.
And in the beginning
there were times
when I took stuff out
and I shot it and it
wasn't satisfactory.
So it's back to the
drawing board at that
point, whether it was
a slightly different
bore size or a different
rifling configuration
or different diameter on
the lands and grooves or
whatever the case may be.
That's what you gotta do.
So I guess I'll just
be a lot of trial
and error at first.
Yeah.
In the beginning there
was trial and error.
I mean, we're pretty
good at it now, so we
know what combinations
and what sort of
algorithm works when
you put it all together.
Right.
You're going to get the
end result you want.
So there's a lot less
testing now, but I will
tell you that nothing
leaves our shop that's
new, that doesn't get
tested to the nth degree
to make sure that it
does what we claim
that it'll do, and then
what we need it to do.
So at the highest level,
I mean, part of it also
is getting into it in
the hands of people that
shoot at that level.
So, I mean, the first
thing that we probably
had shot at up at
a high level was an
AR15 barrels because
it was me that was.
Right.
Shooting them at a
national championship.
And they clearly compete
with anything else
out there from any
other manufacturer.
They perform.
And I've shot them
all, so I will tell
you straight up that
our AR15 barrels shoot
as good or better
than anybody else's.
So there you are.
I love it.
Yep.
Next question user,
Striker-of-Life asks,
with modern barrels
is there any point
in choosing, say a
varmint / bull barrel
or standard barrel for
long range shooting?
Well, I mean, there's
always a point, right?
Like again, it kind of
comes down to what kind
of long range shooting
you're doing and what
you're trying to achieve.
If you're shooting
long range from a
prone position and
you're shooting like
2000 metres, then it's
going to be one type
of barrel clearly.
I mean, you could
slap a hunting barrel
on there, but are
you doing yourself
any kind of favors?
Probably not.
So you kind of just
have to go off of what
you're trying to achieve.
I guess one of the ones
that I get asked a lot
about is, guys that want
a barrel to hunt with,
but they want something
super accurate as well.
Right.
So we have a couple of
profiles that I recommend
that are sort of halfway
in between the reality
is, is if you want
something, that's gonna
shoot a half MOA group
at a thousand meters,
it's not going to be any
of the hunting barrels.
It's going to weigh seven
or eight pounds probably,
so be prepared for that.
but on the other hand,
if you're looking
for light and you're
shooting long range,
you may want something
that is a bit heavier.
And light may not be the
way to go, or maybe you
want something that's
sorta light, but maybe
fluted to take a bit
more weight off there.
So, I mean, there
is actually a lot of
point in choosing the
barrel in relation
to what you're doing.
Mhmm.
So you kinda just have
to be real with yourself.
Like I get guys that
are like, yeah, I
want this for hunting.
Okay, good.
How long, how
far do you shoot?
Oh, you know, probably
I shoot to 800 metres
and I'm like, yeah, but
have you ever actually
shot 800 metres?
Right.
Well, no.
All my shots have
been in within 200.
Okay.
Well you just want
something that maybe
you can shoot to
800 metres with.
Sure.
Well, yeah, okay.
All right, okay.
Here's what you
need basically.
You brought up something
about fluting as well.
I did.
And fluting was an
interesting one because
I remember there
there's a point in
time when everyone says
you got to get your
barrel fluted, cause
it's going to increase
rigidity on your.
Oh god.
barrel.
And it doesn't!
No.
But I still hear
people saying that.
No.
For the same way barrel,
you're going to have
better rigidity, I think
is a common school of
thought on that one.
I think it depends
on how you flute.
And how you flute.
Yep.
Right.
Yeah.
So we pretty much only
spiral flute and we
could straight flute,
providing the flutes were
relatively thin, I think
we'd probably be okay.
But you see on some
barrels, like I think
the Remington, maybe
like the SPS had these
really wide flutes.
Yeah, they're kind
of flat like they
use a Woodruff
cutter or something.
Yeah something, yeah.
I don't know what the
deal was with that, but
anyways they got these
big wide flutes on it.
So if you look at the
barrel head on, you're
going to notice that the
diameter of the barrel
is actually pretty
much cut down by the
width of the flutes.
So if you take a
spiral fluted barrel,
and you look at that,
that's done with fairly
narrow flutes, the
diameter of the barrel
is probably not much
different than what it
is before it's fluted.
So in my opinion, you
retain a lot of that
rigidity with, a little
bit better with a
spiral fluted barrel,
than with a straight
fluted barrel, a wide
straight fluted barrel.
You could probably get
the same thing with
narrow straight flutes,
and I had a guy, I
think it was, was it
yesterday or the day
before asking me if we're
going to straight flute.
And I basically said
we could, but you know,
the reality of it is,
is that I would have
to add probably about
1500 sku's into my
computer system so it's.
So probably not.
It's probably not
going to happen.
We've had really,
really wicked results
that have been
verified by companies
like PGW Defense.
And they shot barrels
before they were
fluted and they spiral
fluted them and then
they shot them again.
And there was no change
in group size, no change
in accuracy, no shift
of impact, none of
that kind of stuff so.
Are you really
losing much weight
when you spiral?
You can.
Yeah.
Believe it or not on
like an MTU, you're
almost losing a pound
out of the barrel.
That's significant.
Which is
significant yeah.
Why you would want
to do that on a match
heavy, super heavy
barrel anyways, why
you would want slightly
lighter I'm not sure.
But I mean, there might
be something to be said
for some of the F class
guys that want, in FTR
in particular, where
you're your gun weight
is I think 18 pounds,
to have the thickest
possible barrel with
the thickest diameter
that's the lightest.
So spiral fluting on
something like that might
be a bit of a thing and
I know that we've had
a couple already, that
guys have done super
well with the spiral
fluted barrel down at
US nationals last year.
Nice.
Yeah.
So that could be a thing.
User Juno7 asks, I'm
trying to find a good
reload using solid
copper bullets, such
as Barnes TTSX, Nosler
e-tip, etc, in a Tikka
with a 1 in 11 twist.
I'm seeing lots of
articles suggesting
that you don't go by the
weight of the bullet,
but rather the length.
Why is that?
And is that the true
way to find a good
bullet for a barrel?
Well, I think you can't
pay too much attention
to that stuff in general
because everything you
read on the internet
is not necessarily
true and people will
tell you different
things depending on
who you're reading.
But there is some
truth to solid copper
bullets being a little
different than lead
cup and core bullets.
And the reason is
because they don't weigh
as much for the same.
So if you have a copper
one, you're going to
get a much longer bullet
for the same weight.
So if you compare,
let's take Barnes
TTSX, cause that's
what I'm familiar with.
Right.
That's what I
use for hunting.
I shoot the 150 TTSX.
And if you compare it
side by side with a
175 Sierra Match King
or one of those match
type bullets, the
155 or the 150 TTSX
is actually longer.
Right.
By quite a bit.
Right.
So you have a, obviously
a longer driving band and
longer contact surface
area in the barrel.
Now Barnes sort of puts
those little can lures
around there, so they
try and minimize that
extra contact, but I've
always found that a 1
in 11 twist, even a 1
in 10 twist faster with
a TTSX and a 155, is
probably gonna work good.
I dunno if he's talking
about a 308 here, I'm
guessing with a 1 in
11 twist it's a 308
is probably would be.
So, I mean, as far as
the examples of, I've
shot in Nosler e-tip's
before, they shoot
pretty good, but the
Barnes TTSX is kind of
my go-to for hunting.
The e-tip is actually
looks like just a regular
jacketed bullet, so
it doesn't have any of
those can lures so that
one may not shoot as
well as the TTSX, but
I would probably monkey
around with different
grain weight bullets
before I sort of threw
them in the garbage
saying they don't shoot.
Right.
Like for me the solid
coppers generally need to
be driven a little harder
than some of the other
bullets out, the lead
cup and core bullets,
in order to expand.
So quite often guys
will go to a, like in
a 308 for hunting guys,
we'll be shooting like
180's, something like
that with solid copper.
The 150 or even the 130
that Barnes makes are
probably pretty good
choices for a 308 and
you can ramp up the speed
a bit and then get them
to blossom when they.
Yeah.
Impact the meat they're
supposed to blossom in.
Well I think you, you
know, one of the things
you said was you don't
always believe what
you're reading on the
internet, or watching,
reading on the internet.
And I think a big part
of this is go out there
and try it yourself.
Yeah, for sure.
Because it's all an
experimentation process.
Yep.
What kind of, your bullet
weight, your bullet
length, your powder.
Absolutely.
Your, and see what
works in your firemen.
I think most people
kind of want to shortcut
that and they say,
Oh, I'll just buy
this and then we'll
buy that one, and the
internet told me that.
Yeah, there's a lot
of the reading off the
internet and how come it
doesn't work in my gun.
Yeah.
Kind of thing and it's
like, because it doesn't
work in everybody's gun.
Right.
Just because it's,
one guy has it
workin' doesn't
mean the other guy.
Then they got the
analysis paralysis and.
Oh man, you know, the
one I get as well, quite
often, this sort of on
the topic here is, guys
that they'll buy let's
use 308 for example.
There is an absolute
metric shit ton
of data out on the
internet right?
And most of it is
pretty verified because
308 has been around
for a long time.
You put 44 and a
half grains of Vargit
over a 175 or a 168
and with a federal
210 match or a BR2.
Yep.
And you shoot it and
it's probably going
to be three quarters
or less, at a hundred.
So the one that I get
quite often is, Hey,
I bought one of your
barrels and the load I
want to use is well,
first of all, I'm pulling
147 bullets out of some
old machine gun ammo, and
I'm going to use those.
They have this black
tar on them, but
it should be fine.
And, I'm going to use
a Norinco brass steel,
and I'm going to use
primers from Russia.
As one does.
Yep.
And I'm gonna use a
powder that, I'm not sure
where it came from, but
I got it at garage sale.
Yep.
So I've been shooting
this in my other gun and
it shoots awesome, but I
put it in your barrel and
I can't get it to shoot.
So I wanna know how to
fix this, or I want to
send the barrel back
because I think there's
something wrong with it.
Yeah.
And it's literally like,
Why are you trying to
reinvent the wheel here?
Yeah.
I mean, experimentation
is cool and fun.
And what works in one gun
might well, I mean, if
you're putting that combo
together, you'd probably
be lucky if you got it
to shoot in any gun.
Yeah, no kidding.
But yeah, I literally
had a guy somewhere in
the prairies there that
was he was shooting a
Stag 10 when they were
legal and and it was a
light barrel, it was a
hunting oriented barrel.
And he had this crazy
load and he was cramping
necks and all this and
I'm like, Oh my God,
no wonder this thing
doesn't shoot you're
lucky you haven't
blown yourself up.
That's funny.
So my advice is just go
with the standard stuff,
the proven stuff, and
shoot that if you want
good results, because
those are all pretty
much proven loads.
You know, thousands
and millions of people
have probably gone
over that and verified
that it works good.
And if you have a
question, just email
me and I'll give
you a load that.
Beauty.
Is probably going to
be somewhere in the
zone of what you're
looking for, but.
You heard it here.
Don't use the
garage sale powder.
All right, let's get
off of Reddit and
go over to Facebook.
Oh my God.
Let's see if there's
going to be a difference
in the type of questions.
I can see right
off the bat here,
I think it will be.
So Ian Thompson
wants to know.
Good ol' Ian.
Why are you so GQ?
Yeah.
Well, Ian knows.
I know Ian, and he
knows that I'm about
as far from GQ as you
could ever want to be.
So I think that
was more just a.
I think it was based
off that picture
you got there.
Which one?
The black background
that Graham took.
That was Graham yeah.
Yeah.
That turned out good.
Yeah, it did.
Didn't it?
Yep.
Yeah.
He's quite the artist
with that camera.
Yeah, he's pretty good.
Yep.
Let's go over to Martin.
Martin, ganon, how do
you pronounce that?
Gan-yon.
Martin Gagnon asks, for
my hunting rig, with
weight saving in mind,
should I go with a pencil
barrel or a carbon fiber
wrap of the same length?
Yeah, okay.
That's a good question.
I mean, again, it kind
of comes down to, is
qualifying what you want
to do with it right?
The reality is that
Pencil barrels are
great for weight but
after a few shots, they
tend to open up and it
doesn't really seem to
matter what you do with
the stress-relieving.
You know, really light
pencil barrels are kind
of designed for one
or two shots in the
same hole, and then
it starts to open up.
So if you're going to
bang a string of 15
through it and wonder
why it doesn't all go
through the same hole
at a hundred metres,
you need to rearrange
your thought process
on why you got this.
Right.
Okay.
So with carbon fiber
barrels, you're going to
get a light steel liner
on the inside, which
may be about the same
size as just a straight
steel pencil barrel.
I know for ours,
the internal liners
about 63 I think.
Which at the muzzle
is about the same size
as our medium hunter.
So the medium hunters
shoot really well.
So if we can increase
the stiffness a bit
by adding some carbon
fiber, which only really
adds a few ounces to
the barrel, then you'll
probably prevent it
from opening up a little
bit, by having the
carbon fiber on there.
You'll prevent it from
opening up over a longer
period ring of shots.
Right.
So you'll probably get,
well, I mean, we've
seen guys with a carbon
fiber barrel shoot, 10
shot strings all into,
you know, the size of
a dime or a nickel or
whatever the case may be.
Right.
You probably aren't
going to get a string
of 10 shots out of
a medium hunter that
all go through the
same hole, although
I have seen it done.
It's, I probably wouldn't
recommend buying that
style of barrel if that's
what you want to do.
Maybe get something
a little bit heavier,
get the carbon fiber
version cause we can
add stiffness to it
with minimal weight with
the carbon fiber so.
Beauty.
Martin, I would say
probably the carbon
fiber would be the way
to go if you're hunting
sheep or something along
those lines and it's a
one or a two shot go you
know, you might want to
think about maybe just
the straight medium
hunter or even a fluted
medium hunter, which will
bang a few more ounces
off for you if you're
really trying to save.
But I think for rigidity
over the same sort
of weight, you're,
the carbon fiber is
going to win pretty
much every time.
Okay, next one,
John Gingrich.
John, good ol' John.
Asks fast twist
22 barrels.
Yeah.
It's kind of funny
cause I actually had
a phone conversation
with John about fast
twist 22 barrels
about two days ago.
And the answer is
yes, there will be
some coming shortly.
Nice.
Yeah.
So right now our
22 barrels are
all 1 in 16 twist.
We are experimenting,
we will be
experimenting shortly.
The barrels should
be getting pulled
this week actually,
in 1 in 12 twists
and 1 in nine twist.
So the fast twist barrels
are going to give us a
little more stability.
Right.
At longer ranges.
So the idea is that,
probably the 16, we
know those shoot really
well, out to 100, we've
seen some groups that
are around the half
minute at a hundred.
And I'm sure the 12 and
the nine will also shoot
really well out to a
hundred, probably even
a little further than
that, 150, maybe 180,
something like that.
But once you start
getting past that sort
of 200 metre mark,
which is really common
today with the rimfire
PRS type matches where
you're trying to bang
steel anywhere out
to, well I mean, back
East, they shoot them
out in 500 metres.
Right.
With a 22 long
rifle, so once.
500 hundred metres, 22?
I know it's crazy, right.
The furthest I've
shot is 436, I think.
That's impressive.
To a piece of steal.
Yeah, that was good yep.
And that was
crappy ammo too.
Mmm.
So what they're looking
for is a little more
rotational stability
past that sort of
200 metre mark.
So what you'll notice
if you've shot rimfire
is that you start to
get more fliers the
further out you go.
And that's probably
a combination of a
couple of things.
22 rimfire bullets,
their ballistic
coefficient is terrible
so that doesn't help.
But also your well,
two things can happen,
you can go through the
transonic zone if you're
shooting supersonic
stuff, which I've seen
personally at about
the 300 metre mark.
The vast majority of
your shots will go where
they're aimed, but you'll
get the odd one here
and there that catches
the wrong something,
and it goes two feet
lower, two feet higher.
You get a weird
flyer and.
Right.
It's like, I didn't
call that, why's
it way over there.
So the idea with the
faster twist rates
is to eliminate a
lot of that transonic
zone D stability.
Now guys, that shoot.
And for people who
don't know what a
transonic zone is.
Well, so it's the zone
in between where the
bullet is supersonic
and going to subsonic.
Right.
So it's this area where
all kinds of wacky stuff
can happen to the bullet.
And when it's slowing
down, it hits this zone
and then it becomes,
can become unstable.
So it doesn't happen
all the time, but
you get those weird
fliers every now and
again, in my opinion,
I think it's probably
because the supersonic
stuff is going through
that transonic zone.
Now there are guys that
shoot subsonic like
myself because I saw
those weird wacky flyers
and I thought, Hmm,
I wonder if I stayed
subsonic all the way out
there, whether that would
eliminate a lot of that.
And for the most
part, it did,
depending on the ammo.
But you still get
the odd flyer and
when you're subsonic,
you're also dealing
with more wind and.
Right.
More dope and all
that kind of stuff.
So you have to
deal with that.
So if we can add a little
more rotational stability
to these projectiles,
we may eliminate some
of those weird fliers.
Beauty.
That guys are seeing
past that sort of
200 metre mark.
So we're going to
be testing that
here shortly.
And I would probably
imagine that we
will have barrels
available, providing
the testing does what
we think it will do.
Hopefully we'll do some
videos on it so guys can
actually watch it, which
would be kinda neat.
And it will probably
have barrels available
probably January,
I would think.
Nice!
Yeah.
I need some testing
over the winter here.
Get a few things done.
Well that's exciting.
Yeah.
It's kind of cool
because, I don't think
there's too many other
companies, well I know
there's nobody else in
Canada that does it.
But even in the States,
I don't think the fast
twist 22 barrels are
really super common yet.
Right.
So we're hoping to
jump on that one.
That'd be pretty cool.
Yep.
Okay.
So we've got a number of,
there's no names attached
to these questions.
Alright.
And some of them
I'm looking at them.
They're already
repeat, so we'll just
bang through them.
Sure.
Quickly.
Cold bore vs.
Clean bore.
Yup.
So first round shot,
and any deviation that
you might find, there's
people that talk about
cold bore shot and
other people say nah,
nah, nah, it's because
it's a clean bore shot.
Okay.
So cold bore, I think
honestly is morelikely
cold shooter shot.
Right.
I don't really
believe in the whole
cold bore thing.
Now clean bore is
completely different
kind of topic.
The two are kind of
apples and oranges.
Clean bore,
yes, definitely.
Things are gonna change
as you put some fouling
through the barrel.
So as far as cold bore
goes, I'm not really
much of a believer.
I know that in my case,
when I've got up to the
line and I've fired the
first shot of the day
and it's not gone where
I wanted it to, I usually
generally can eliminate
that by dry firing a
few times, and sort of
getting back into the
rhythm of what firing a
perfect shot feels like.
Right.
So for me, I've basically
dry fired a few times
before, and generally
speaking, those rounds
that you fire on the
cold bore, go where
you want them to.
So in my opinion, for
me, there's no such thing
as a cold bore for me,
it's more of a cold me
than it is a cold bore.
Yeah, I agree with that.
Now, clean shooting.
There's definitely
something
there, for sure.
I mean, if you look at
the bench rest guys,
they'll clean after a 10
shot string and then fire
a couple more sighters,
or fowlers through
it to get it back.
Right.
And so I think there's
something to be
said there for sure.
Clean bore and foul
bore are, are different.
So next question.
How often do you
clean your barrel?
Well, hmm.
It depends on the barrel.
Like the rimfire
barrel, like I said,
I got 10,000 rounds
through it and I pull
it once and I was sorry
that I pulled it so.
Yeah, yeah.
I'd probably
just leave it.
As far as rimfire goes,
I clean the chamber a
lot and the action to
make sure that all the
gunge that comes out
of there is taken out.
And with rimfire in
particular, one of
the downsides we're
figuring out is the lube,
especially in winter
conditions, can cause
all kinds of extraction
issues in the cold.
Right.
Because that lube
is instantaneously
hot and then
instantaneously frozen,
if it's below zero.
Right.
So that can cause all
kinds of shenanigans.
As far as centerfire
goes, I used to be
of the opinion that
just clean it until
it stops shooting.
Well.
Sorry, clean
it until stops?
Pardon me.
Or clean it
when it stops?
Clean it when it
stops shooting.
Right.
Just shoot it until its
not shooting anymore.
Right.
So I think my.
You've changed
that have ya?
I have, yeah, my
realization recently
has been that, I think
you should pay a little
bit more attention
to it because it may
stop shooting and
you may not realize
that it's shooting.
Like I've run, well I
think I've the most I've
done is about six or 700
rounds without cleaning.
Right.
Still again, paying more
attention to the chamber
than anything else, but
not pulling the bore.
That'd be like
in a 223 or?
No, that was my
competition 6mil.
Okay.
Yep.
Trying to push the limits
and see what I could do.
Yeah, yeah.
And so, you know, I'd
take it to a competition
and it had three or
400 rounds through it.
And then maybe not have
quite the results that
you were kind of hoping
for and then come back
after the competition
and put it on paper.
And, Oh, look at that,
it's shooting like
an inch at a hundred
or an inch and a
half at a hundred.
And then put a borescope
in there and go, wow,
there's a lot of copper
and stuff in there.
So then you strip all
that out and take the
Wipe Out and put it
in there and drain
it and clean it out.
Take it back to the
range, and lo and behold,
it's back to shooting,
you know, 0.3 or 0.4
or whatever the case.
Right.
So I think for me, now,
I'm going to definitely,
probably clean and
completely stripped
to copper probably
a lot faster now.
Probably every four or
500 rounds I'll probably
take it down to the bare
steel and then refoul
and then go again.
But you know.
Fouling a couple
of rounds.
Yeah.
If you do it like a
deep strip with out
and you get all the
copper out, it might
take you more than that.
It could take you
20, 30 rounds to sort
of get it back on
track, but it really
depends on the rifle.
It's hard to say.
Well this, is bleeds
into the next question.
Now you've mentioned
Wipe Out a few times.
Yeah I have.
Okay so.
It's my go to.
Best practices
for cleaning.
Best practices
for cleaning.
Okay well.
And that's going
to change for
whoever you talk to.
I mean, you know, you
got guys that are still
using hop's number nine.
With the nitro
benzene it in.
Yes, nitro benzene,
and they swear by it.
And you know, in the
barrel industry I get to
clean lots of stuff after
testing and whatnot and
the reason I mentioned
Wipe Out is simply
because I will clean
or I have clean stuff
with other things in
the past and hmm, still
not doing what I thought
it would be doing.
And then I take the
Wipe Out in there and
guess what comes out.
Right.
A metric shit ton
of copper comes
out with Wipe Out.
And it was all stuff
that had been cleaned out
previously before with
other types of cleaner
and I can verify it all,
but with a borescope.
Yep.
So I can just look
in there and see what
happens after you
clean with some stuff.
And then I mean, I don't
own stocks in Wipe Out
or anything, but I'll
tell you what it, it
cleans very, very well.
That's the ammonia
based, whatever in
there that you can
smell, it's really.
You can.
Attacking the copper.
Yeah.
And I think the foaming
bore cleaner type
style is really good
for getting into all
the nooks and crannies
and whatnot as well.
And just letting it
sort of sit on the
bore and really get
into the copper.
So you'd use forming as
opposed to the patch out?
I've used them both.
Yeah.
Usually what I'll do is
I will take my barrel
and take the bolt out
and lean it up against
the wall, barrel a muzzle
down and just squirt
the foaming bore cleaner
in there and make sure
you put a paper towel
or something under the
muzzle, because you'll
get a whole pile of blue
Smurf snot that comes out
of there, and that's all
the copper draining out.
So I'll do that
and then I will run
some wet patches.
Isn't that why they
sell those oilcan.
Oh yeah.
Wish.com, right?
That's right.
Yeah, solvent trap.
Solvent trap.
Solvent trap.
Yeah, get those.
Not.
Yeah, there you go.
Yeah, if you want
to end up in jail,
don't do that.
That's right.
Yeah, so all the
blue stuff comes out.
So then I'll push
a couple of wet
patches through and
see how that looks.
And then usually I'll
lean it up against
the wall again, and
squirt the foaming
stuff in there and
just let it sit.
You know and I may
have to squirt the
foaming stuff in there
five or six times,
just to make sure.
And you'll know because
none of the blue stuff
comes out in the end
when you just let it
sit in there and then
some dry patches.
And then, I mean, if
you want to put oil in
your barrel, I guess
that's fine, but make
sure you dry patch
it before you shoot.
A lot of brushing?
Nope.
No brush, no nylon?
No brush.
No copper, just patch?
No, don't need it.
The Wipe Out takes
out everything
without a brush.
I mean, if you had a
really stubborn copper
issue, you could probably
you could probably use
a brush if you want.
Just be aware that copper
brushes or brass brushes
seem to be effected
by Wipe Out as well.
They will yep.
So it will eat your
brush bristles.
And if it's a copper
brush, it might
even leave false
readings on your
patches and whatnot.
So I don't even
really find any need
to brush it out.
You had one person
say, he says, Oh no,
I always use nylon
because it won't
won't harm the bore.
And then somebody else
says, well, have you
ever looked at the
eyelits on a fishing rod?
And they got the nylon
going through and then
over time it eats away.
Yeah.
You know, it all
does something.
Yeah.
The other one I get
is a bore snakes.
Right.
This seems to be
an ongoing saga
of the bore snake.
And so I try to explain
it a few times and I'm
not a guy that would
ever run a bore snake
through a precision gun.
No.
Would I carry one in
my pocket for hunting
in case I lawn dart
my rifle into the
dirt when I trip?
Sure.
Yeah.
Why not?
That would be good
to get all the crap
out of the barrel.
It's fine in an emergency
case, but as a regular
cleaning thing, I
would never run bore
snakes through my gun
simply because it's
very easy to wear the
edge off of the crown.
Right.
With a bore snake.
You might think you're
pulling it out straight
and you might pull it
out straight sometime,
but you might not.
And all it takes to
affect your accuracy at
the nth level, is just
to take the edge off
of the crown somewhere.
And then things
start eroding even
faster after that.
So for me, I always,
like a plastic coated
steel rod and that
works the best.
And are using
a bore guide?
No.
No?
I don't, but I know
lots of people do.
Okay.
But I don't know.
You can, if you want.
Just be careful.
Yeah, just put
it in straight.
Like don't jam
it in like a.
Like a flicka.
Like a monkey.
There ya go.
And with the Wipe Out
as well, I'm told that
you get that on your
dining room table and
it can attack the.
You're told that?
This is what I.
Who told you that?
This is what I hear.
I think somebody that
lives with you might've
told you that maybe.
So word on the street is.
Figured out
via experience.
Fire lapping.
Oh my God.
Fire lapping.
Okay.
So we had somebody askin
about fire lapping.
Yeah, I don't,
I've tried.
Maximize throat errosion?
I've tried it.
I think what fire lapping
is, is simply a way to
take your throat errosion
down a couple of notches.
To take the rough edges
off of fire cracking,
right in the throat.
I've shot some of the
little kits that you can
get that are fire lapping
kits through 308's
that have had like six,
7,000 rounds through it.
Did I see any
difference in accuracy?
Nope.
That doesn't mean
it wouldn't work
for somebody else.
On a new gun, I would
definitely not fire lap.
I would leave the, if
it's a quality barrel,
I would not fire lap.
Right.
You might have a,
maybe a factory barrel
that's having some
real bad issues.
Anything, you know, maybe
you borescope and you
know, something's funky
in the throat there.
Maybe you might want
to try fire lapping
something there.
Be aware that
you'll probably
void your warranty.
If you fire lap it
because it'd probably be
very easy to see the fire
lapping on the inside.
Right.
Yeah, with a borescope.
So for me, not
really thing, I shoot
6mils, so they fire
crack very easily.
You'd look at a brand
new barrel after two or
300 rounds and you've got
fire cracking in there.
So for me, I just use
a little bit of JB bore
paste, which is a very,
very fine abrasive and
I just run it into the
throat and like 20,
30 strokes in there,
just in the throat
area, back and forth
on little felt pellets.
You could do it
on a patch too,
if you needed to.
And that just takes the
edge off of the fire
cracking, and that's
generally all you need.
Yeah.
What about a carbon ring?
A carbon ring.
Oh my favorite,
carbon ring.
Maybe we tell 'em
what it is and.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So on these new
high-speed calibres,
they are, especially the
6mils and even the 65's,
to a degree, and some of
the smaller ones, like
a 22 Creedmoor, you'll
probably see it as well.
So when you fire, you get
a bit of a carbon ring
that goes back underneath
the edge of the neck
of the casing and it
forms right where the
chamber basically starts,
err not the chamber,
the throat starts.
So just back from your
case mouth is where
you'd be looking and
you get this carbon ring
that goes all the way
around the case mouth.
So what happens is that
carbon ring starts to
build up the more you
fire and the signs
of it is that your
velocity started to go
crazy because you're
actually pinching the
case mouth around it.
So you're adding neck
tension basically.
Right.
To the case mouth.
And so when you fire
your, you don't get
the same velocity, not
a consistent velocity.
So the sign of it is a
decreasing accuracy and
creeping velocities.
And so the idea is that
you want to get rid of
that carbon ring that
forms around there so
that you're getting
consistent neck tensions.
So how do you get
rid of the carbon?
Well, I first realized
that this was an
issue on my 6mil on
my competition gun.
I shoot a six comp
match, which is
basically a 243 AI.
So lots of powder,
big velocities
on small bullets.
And after, I think it
was probably about four
or 500 rounds, I started
getting the sort of weird
creeping velocities and
the expanding groups from
where it had been only a
few hundred rounds ago.
So I'm like what
the heck's going on
here and not being
very well-schooled
in the 6mils at
that point in time.
I didn't, you know, I'd
been shooting through
308's basically, so
it's not really a
thing in 308 right.
And so I went and looked
and I'm like, Holy
crap, I have this carbon
ring thing in here.
So, how do I get
this out of here?
So I thought, well,
I'll just clean it
and it'll be fine.
Sure.
Wrong.
Yeah.
Even Wipe Out
doesn't take it out.
So I was trying to figure
out how the heck to get
this stupid carbon ring
out of there cause I
suspected that it was
causing issues with the
accuracy and velocity.
So I tried every
cleaner known to man
and even some cleaners
not known to man.
I tried some
miscellaneous
industrial products.
Sure.
Nope.
Where did I go?
I went on a, I think
it was a US high power
board and these old
high power shooters
had these recipes for,
I don't even remember,
something, somebody
red juice or something.
It was.
Right.
Called, I can't remember.
I made that stuff
!
Yeah.
So, and it had like,
10 ingredients in
it and they're all
highly toxic stuff.
Yeah.
Right.
I still got a bucket
of that stuff.
Yeah, this shit is
going to be awesome.
It's gonna peal this
right out of here.
Nope.
Anggg, wrong.
Didn't even touch it.
So I'm like, Holy
crap, this is resilient
burnt on carbon.
Okay, so what I'm going
to do is I'm going to
just take the reamer and
I'll run the reamer in
and I'll just cut it out.
Okay.
Nope.
Reamer, didn't
take it out either.
Really?
Yeah.
So I was like, Holy
smokes, this is insane.
So, I can't remember
how it came about, but
a buddy of mine,a guy
shoot with, and he's
like, maybe you should
just try some like floor
cleaner or something.
And I'm like
floor cleaner?
And he's like, yeah,
why don't you try that
CLR shit from Walmart,
it's the stuff that
you can, that mold
mildew and rust stuff.
And I'm like, I don't
know if that works
on carbon, but you
know, it's like six
bucks at Walmart.
So I'll go over
there and try it.
So sure enough.
It worked.
Like 10 minutes later,
I had no carbon ring.
I'm like, you've
gotta be kidding.
So yeah.
So that's how we get the
carbon rings out now.
CLR.
CLR.
Calcium, Lime, Rust.
Yep.
This stuff that comes in
the gray bottle with the
orange and green label.
Yeah.
And so the method that
I use now is, I will
soak an oversized brush.
So if you're shooting a 6
mm, I'll use a six and a
half or seven mil brush,
and I wrap a patch around
it, dip it in the CLR and
just stuff it into the
throat and let it sit.
So let it sit for 10
to 20 minutes somewhere
in there, you can
let it sit longer.
And then once you have
that, then give the
brush a few twists
and that will sort of
dislodge the carbon ring
from the chamber wall
and then pull it out.
You'll see it on the
patch and then do it
again until you get
nothing coming out.
Or you can verify it
with a borescope or
a camera or whatever,
if you have it.
I will tell you that the
carbon ring does not look
like much in there, but
it has lots of effect.
So I've had guys that are
like, no, I've cleaned
it, I've looked in there
where the borescope,
there's no carbon ring.
I'm like, okay
send it to me.
And my buddy, Alex
is one of them.
Yeah.
Love you, buddy, you
proved me right he's
like, yeah, it's clean.
So I got in there and
I'm like, there's a
carbon ring in here.
And he's like, Oh,
there is, I cleaned
it like crazy.
I'm like, dude,
it doesn't come
out with cleaning.
So we stuck the CLR
in there and sure
enough, big black
smudge came out.
Beauty.
Even though when you
look in there, it
doesn't look like there's
much, but it doesn't
take much to start
effecting your velocities
and whatnot so.
That's awesome to know.
So anyway, yep.
His went, his went
right back to normal
once we got the carbon
ring out of there
and he had a bit of a
copper issue as well.
He was doing the
same thing as me, he
wasn't cleaning for
long periods of time.
How many rounds was
he firing in order to
develop a carbon ring?
I don't think it takes
much, like for me,
I'll CLR every 200.
Okay.
Yep.
Take that carbon
ring out of there.
And that will probably
be less as you go up in
bore diameter because
you're having less
pressure in there.
Right.
So the more overboard
the cartridges, like
at 22 Creedmoor or a 22
to 50, where you have a
22 calibre bullet and a
huge ass 308 sized case.
Right.
That's probably going
to start a carbon
ring pretty quick.
Right.
The one that we talked
a little bit about it
before we started, was
the 6 dasher and there
was sort of a thing,
where guys were having
lots of issues with 6
dashers right around
the 500 round mark.
And I think probably a
lot of that was related
to carbon rings back in
the day when the 6 dasher
was new and people didn't
really understand what
was going on with that
casing and that carbon
rings were a thing.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
All right.
So, we'd done
on carbon ring?
I think so.
Okay.
We've got, does an 11
degree target crown make
a difference over, let's
say a 90 degree or other?
I think if you think
it does, it does.
Yeah.
That's, that's
what I found.
Yeah.
You ever chopping
one down and.
Oh yeah.
Just see how it works.
Done all kinds of funky
stuff to the crown.
As long as the edges
are sharp, we've even
cut them on angle.
Yeah.
And as long as
it's sharp, it
seems to be okay.
You'll get.
Accuracy wise.
Precision and your
accuracy, your point
of impact will change.
Yeah.
But yeah.
Yeah, so the only thing
that I would suggest
on a crown is to have
some sort of a recess
crown just in the off
chance that you ding it
somehow on something,
if it's recess crown,
whether it's 11 degree
or whether it's just a
like slightly set back.
If something hits the
end of your muzzle, who
knows you might ding
your crown, which is bad.
And if it's reset,
you may not have that
issue a little bit.
Okay.
As much.
Barrel or stock.
What makes the most
noticeable difference
to accuracy?
Well, again, I think
on a mechanical
point, probably the
barrel, for sure.
But it all comes back
to how you're thinking
about, you're shooting.
So if you're shooting a
stock, you might have the
best barrel in the world,
but if you're shooting
a stock that's not
comfortable, it doesn't
fit you properly or you
just don't like it, or I
have a problem with this
stock because of that.
You're probably already
affecting the way your
mental state, the way
you're going to shoot so.
Good point.
But mechanically, as
far as gaining the
most out of accuracy,
I think honestly
barrel ammunition and
glass are probably the
three top ones that
will get you there as
far as accuracy goes.
Yeah, make sure you're
shooting good ammo.
If you'r shootin'
freedom bucket and
you're probably not.
Bedding vs.
Vblocks.
That's not really a
barrel thing, but some
people will bed their
entire barrel length.
Yeah and I mean, I've
gone to the extent
where I've bedded
aluminum chassies.
Yeah?
Just to see if it
made a difference.
And?
Didn't.
Yeah.
No, I saw no
difference in bedding
an aluminum chassis.
Now I have seen
differences in bedding
other things like wood
stock's, some fiberglass
stocks as well, a little
bit of betting helps.
But as far as a Vblock
aluminum chassis
kind of deal, I
don't think there's
any need to bed it.
But again, if it makes
you feel like you're
going to be more accurate
than okay, go for it.
So a free floated barrel
or pressure points?
Ahh, yes, yes, yes.
Well, I think for
the most part, my
experience would be
that a free floated
barrels are probably a
better option than some
with pressure points.
I mean, some of the
older rifles back in the
day all had a pressure
point right at the very
front of the fore end.
Right.
And that seemed to
work okay, but I dunno.
I think if you look
at the people that are
trying to exact the most
amount of accuracy out
of their guns, there
aren't any guns that
are like that they're
all free floated.
Right.
Yeah.
I think there's something
to be said on heavy
profile barrels to
have an inch, inch
and a half, maybe
two inches of bedding
in front of the lug.
Right.
And just touching the
barrel, but after that.
Just in the chamber area?
Yep, yeah, just give it
a little more support
in front of the recoil
lug, especially when
you're hanging like
MTUS or kind of the
trend now is to these
125 straight barrels
that are like 27 inches
long, 26 inches long.
Right.
That's like nine pound
barrel or more right.
Yeah.
It's crazy.
So to hang all that off
your action, I think
it's probably a good idea
to have a little bit of
bedding in front of the
lug to help support that.
Okay.
How about
torque settings?
Are they all that
they're cracked up to be?
Well, that is a very
interesting thing.
I think torque settings
or something else
that you have to
experiment a bit with,
especially with aluminum
chassies I've found.
Well, you know,
honestly I've never
really experimented
with them, with like
stocks and stuff, but
I would imagine it
probably has a similar
effect, but the torque
settings can affect your
accuracy, absolutely.
On a couple levels, I
think number one, make
sure that the chassis
actually fits your
action a hundred percent,
because if it doesn't
and there's slight
differences in there
even a little bit, you
can torque your action
to the point where you
might not even be able
to operate the bolt if
you're cranking down
on it, like crazy.
Right.
I've seen that before.
I think probably the
other thing is that,
what I've noticed
is, okay, let me
go back a bit here.
So I started shooting
aluminum chassies with
MDT and they got me into
a couple of chassies.
And so I'm monkeyed
around a bit with
different torque values.
And I talked to a
couple of target shooter
rifle guys, target
rifle shooter guys
that shoot at a very
high level for Canada.
And they said, Oh yeah,
you got to play with
your torque settings
because those guys
were really shooting
aluminum chassies way
before anybody else
on the RPA's and the
actions that you could
fit into get aluminum
chassies made for back
in the day before MDT
and some of the other
companies came around.
Right.
And they said, yeah,
you don't necessarily
want to go super tight.
You almost kind of
want to have it loose
in there, not loose,
but just snugged in.
Right.
And that might help
you with any of
the inaccuracies
in the chassis.
So I thought, Hmm, well,
MDT is pretty good.
I will play around with
it a bit and, in their
chassies I didn't really
see much of a difference
between like 60, 65
pounds down to around 35.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's a big difference.
Yeah.
But I have seen another
chassies differences
where looser, down to
the 35 pounds sort of
zone actually made the
rifle group better.
Interesting.
Yeah.
And so I just run all
my chassies around
35 now anyway, be it
MDT or anybody else.
Okay.
And my stocks, snd
stocks that that would
be a different thing
because you're looking
at a different type
of bedding in there.
So that would be
something to experiment
with a bit, plus usually
on a stock, you're trying
to hold your bottom
metal in with the action
screws and whatnot.
What about torque
settings on your scope?
On the scope?
On the rings, bases.
I mean, there's guys that
go to the nth degree on
all kinds of crazy stuff.
Sure, if it makes
you feel better, if
you want to lap your
scope rings, okay.
Put rosin in there.
I don't know.
You know, I've seen
old off the rack
Weaver rings and
bases just do awesome.
Yeah.
And I've always figured
the torque settings,
at least in that
respect, was more of
a solution to a problem
that never existed.
Yeah, that's kinda
how I feel too.
Other than maybe to
prevent people from
over-torquing it,
people who didn't have
the feel, they didn't
know, is this too tight?
Am I going to
crush things?
How tight is
tight, right?
Right.
Yeah.
I mean with mine, I just
use a Torx screw driver.
I don't have any torque
settings on mine, I
just snug 'em down until
they're nice and snug and
I don't overcrank them.
Right.
Don't put Loctite
on your scope rings.
That's the next question
that we had here.
Is there a question?
Yeah.
Is Loctite overused?
Hey, look at that!
That's hilarious.
I think in certain ways,
Loctite is overused yeah.
Scope rings for sure.
Don't Loctite, your
base to your action.
If you have a 20 MOA
rail, please don't
because if I'm trying
to spin a new barrel on
there and I can't get
your scope base off, I'm
not really too sure what
I'm going to do at that
point or what you're
going to do, because
I'm going to send it
back to you probably.
But yeah, don't
Loctite it on there.
Don't Loctite your
scope rings down.
Yeah, I think Loctite is
a little bit overused.
It's again, something
that I've often, if
it's properly tightened
up, how often do you.
I'll tell you one place
I do use Loctite and it's
a little bit of a secret.
Okay.
I'll tell you a secret.
Just you and me
though, right?
Just you and me.
Okay.
So you know that I
shoot ARS or I used
to shoot AR's at a
fairly high level.
I've heard this.
Yes.
Fairly high level.
So one of the places
I use Loctite is when
I am putting an AR15
barrel into the action.
So I will put Loctite
around the extension
and slide it in there
and then tighten
the barrel nut down.
Interesting.
Yeah.
A lot of guys think
that you have to put
lubricant in there.
Wrong.
Do not put
lubricant in there.
If anything, you
want to take up any
of that extra little
slop and the Loctite
seems to work good.
Now I don't use red
Loctite and I don't use
a blue Loctite, I use.
The green stuff.
I use the green stuff.
Okay.
Yeah, which you can
break free pretty easily.
Yeah.
But it takes enough
of the slop up because
aluminum receivers are
not necessarily milled.
They're milled
to mill spec.
Right.
Which isn't really all
that great for accuracy.
So there you go, I
just gave you AR 15
championship winning
tip right there.
Beauty, now that's worth
listening to, what are
we at, an hour and a
half into this podcast?
Are we already?
We are.
Oh my God.
I've only got a couple
more here for those who
stuck around this long.
Yeah.
There ya go.
Yeah.
Thanks.
I hope there's
something good you
can take out of this.
Barrel tuners.
Barrel tuners.
Do they work?
I think they do.
Okay.
Maybe we'll let the
people know what
a barrel tuner is.
Yeah.
So barrel tuner is this
thing that you either
screw onto the end of
the barrel or clamp onto
the barrel, and it can
change basically the
harmonics of the barrel.
Generally they're a two
piece thing that you can
screw in or screw out.
And it just moves, I
think the way it works
mainly is it moves
your leverage point a
little further out or
a little further back.
It may also dampen any
kind of vibration a
little bit, but you can
basically sort of change
that note a little bit.
So where we're sort of
seeing these really take
off right now is in the
22 PRS sort of end of it.
Right.
So guys are doing a lot
of testing with the tuner
because 22 ammunition
at this point in time
cannot be reloaded.
So you have to go off the
factory ammo and you have
to find ammo that shoots
reasonably well for your
barrel, for your gun.
And so putting a tuner
on there can actually
help quite a bit really
fine tune that sort of,
know that you might've
been almost on with
the ammunition itself,
but not quite there.
It could shoot a little
bit better if it was
just a slightly different
frequency at the end of
the different harmonic
at the end of the barrel.
Just change
that sweet spot.
Yep, and basically
that's what it does.
And so the guys are able
to fine tune the groups
and, you know, there's
lots of anecdotal target
evidence on the net.
We get guys that are
testing barrels for
us that are shooting
the tuna can, I think
is a red knob one
that's out right now.
And yeah, it can be, it
can help quite a bit,
change your group size.
Now on a centrefire
gun, is it a thing?
I don't know.
You can tune your ammo
on a centrefire gun.
So whether you actually
need that or not is
another question.
Right.
It might work maybe
for bench rest you'd
see the guys doing it.
For PRS, where you're
trying to whack a four
MOA piece of steel.
Right.
I mean, you know, what's
the point really I guess.
If you want to
run it sure.
Do you need it?
Maybe not.
There might be one
coming from IBI and
in the near future.
I like that.
Might, maybe.
Perhaps, maybe.
Shortly.
Test it out.
See how it goes.
Yeah.
You never know
anything could happen.
Will the optimal load
for a barrel change over
the barrels lifespan?
I don't think the optimal
load would probably
change over lifespan,
providing you're
not really changing
anything in the barrel.
What will change
is probably the
throat erosion.
So you may or may not
have to monkey around
with the load a little
bit to, not the load,
but the seeding depth
to get it, to do what
it was doing previously.
Like if you have a barrel
that shoots and it needs
to be 23 off to lands.
Sure.
If you shoot a thousand
rounds through it and
your throat erroads
20 thou, you may have
to push that bullet
out a bit more to get
those same results.
But you might not, I
mean, there's guys like
Eric Kortina down the
States and he doesn't
chase the lands at all.
He doesn't care.
Okay.
I'm not quite
there yet, I'm not.
And I have to do a bit
more experimenting, but
yeah, it's possible.
So, I dunno if you're
looking at my sheet here,
but you're talking about
things that are just
leading into the next.
What else do I got here?
Well throat erosion.
What's throat erosion and
how can it be prevented?
You can't prevent it.
If you want to prevent
throat erosion, shoot
a 22 long rifle.
Yeah.
All the low pressure
cartridges have a lot
less throat erosion.
What is it?
Basically is, when
you ignite a case or
you ignite around,
you instantly create
hot fiery gas with the
gunpowder exploding
inside the case and
that all gets forced
out through the case
mouth and that's what
pushes the projectile.
All that expanding gas
pushes the projectile
down, but also right
at the case mouth that
also tends to cook
the steel pretty badly
right at the throat.
So we see throat
erosion on high
pressure cartridges.
So like I mentioned
previously, anything
that's overbore that has
a big case size, but a
small bullet diameter
tends to get throat
erosion super quickly.
That's one of the reasons
why he can shoot a 308
for, you know, 6,000
rounds and not really
see much in the way of
throat erosion, or you
can shoot you know, 6
creedmoor and have throat
erosion of like 10 thou
in like 500 rounds.
Right.
So the more of that hot
gas, you're trying to
force through a very
small opening of the
case mouth, the more
throat erosion you're
probably gonna get.
So if you're shooting
a big straight wall
cartridges, like 30
Whelan or something like
that, where you have a
big bullet and a big case
mouth it's not really
too much different than
the size of the case,
then you're probably
going to have a lot less
throat erosion than you
would if you have a big
case in a small bullet.
And we're getting
into our final
stretch here, one of
them you've already
basically answered.
Will moly coated bullets
increase the barrel life?
Yeah.
And the answer is.
Maybe.
Maybe.
I don't know.
Who knows.
There's other issues
that come along
with moly coating.
Especially out here
in the West coast,
moly coating is a
super hydrophilic, so
it attracts water so.
Right.
If you have a moly coated
barrel, have to make sure
it's really dry when you
store it, because if
it's a chromoly steel
barrel, you may come back
and it'll be full rust.
Right.
So you gotta be
pretty careful there.
And again, you have to
increase your powder
charge with coated
bullets, be it moly, or
hexagonal boron because
they're so slippery
that you require more
powder to actually push
it at the same velocity.
So we go back to the
throat erosion question
again and you know,
when you're increasing
your powder charge is
probably a pretty good
chance that you're
gonna cook your throat
a little bit more as the
powder charge increases.
Yeah.
Talk about rusty barrels
reminds me of a going
back on the Wipe Out.
Yep.
And another fellow
we'll just call him
Bill S, we'll just
leave it at that.
Interesting.
And he's always trying to
save a buck and he says,
Oh, this got ammonia
in it, I can smell it.
And it's like yeah, I
think that's the active
ingredient in it, it's
kind of attacking the
copper here, the fouling.
And so he thought,
I know what I'll do,
rather than buying this
expensive Wipe Out,
I'll just get a big
jug of ammonia already,
and I'll just run some
of this down my bore.
Oh boy, good idea.
Man, if you looked
down this guy's
barrel afterwards.
He brought it in, he
says, you told me this
should be fine, Travis!
I said, I never
said that.
Whoa, hang on a second.
I said it smelled
like ammonia and
I agree with you.
It looked like
you're looking
down a sewer pipe.
It was so rusty.
Yeah.
Was probably a
chromoly steel barrel
and it all corroded.
That's one thing about
CLR that you have to be
careful with as well.
I didn't mention in the
carbon ring question
there is that it needs
more experimentation
with chromoly barrels.
It's fine in stainless
steel, but I have
seen some corrosion
if you don't wipe it
all out of there in a
chromoly steel barrels.
I have seen guys
that want to clean
their muzzle breaks
in it, and the muzzle
breaks are chromoly
and they're coded in
cerakote or something
along those lines.
And they put it in
there and it's black
and they pull it
out and it's gray.
Right.
So you gotta be careful
because I think the CLR
has some issues with
the chromoly steel.
So I would just be
careful as far as that
goes a corrosion and
I wouldn't put 'em
straight ammonia down
your barrel either.
Well, it didn't work out
too well for this guy.
No, no, definitely not.
And here's the
last question.
Yep.
And we can always fill
in more afterwards
if you think that
anything's been missed,
but man, we've got a
lot of things here.
Yeah, that was a lot.
Yeah.
What gives a
premium barrel, a
better lifespan?
I don't know if it does.
Right.
I think the lifespan
of the barrel really
depends on how hard
that you're, how hard
you're pushing it.
So if you're shooting
just a soft factory
loads through it,
well it depends on
a few things, right?
Like soft factory loads
will probably give you
more barrel life than
you running a really
hot hand loads out
of the same barrel.
You'll get more
barrel life out of the
factory loads for sure.
And also the
calibre as well.
If you're shooting a
308, you're going to
probably going to get
5,000 rounds out of it,
of accurate barrel life.
But if you're shooting
a 6 creedmoor,
you're probably
going to get 2000.
Right.
2200 or whatever, right.
Now, I guess steel
has a lot to do
with that as well.
It all depends on the,
partly on the hardness
of your steel as well.
Right.
So the harder the steel,
the more barrel life
you're probably going
to get out of it as far
as like stainless goes,
I think Bartlein line
just came out with some
different type of steel
that said increases
their barrel life a bit.
I think it's only a
few Brownell hardness
points harder than
their previous steel.
Okay.
So whether that's
actually a change in
the steel or whether
it's a change in
their stress-relieving
processes, I don't know.
Because stress-relieving,
it can, it can change
your hardness as well.
What about cryo-treating?
I know we were on
our last question.
Yeah, no it's all good.
I'm not really too
familiar with the
cryo-treating to be
honest with you, I've
heard good things and
I've heard bad things.
Some guys think that
cryo-treating will
do the same thing as
that's stress-relieving
and I have no
practical experiences
to whether it does.
Fair enough.
Yeah, unfortunately.
So well, I mean, premium
barrel life, it's
probably going to help
in a couple of ways.
If you've got a premium
barrel more than likely,
you're also getting it
cut by somebody with
decent reamers and
you're having somebody
do it that cares
about what's going on.
Not necessarily a
factory barrel, that's
pumped out by the
thousands and they just.
Care about
getting it done.
It might not even be
a sharp reamer right.
Right.
So I think all of those
factors sort of rolled
into one, providing
you're not running it
super hot, is going
to give you a better
accuracy for sure and
yeah, probably a little
bit better barrel life.
It's hard to say.
Well, after all of these
questions that we've had
from Instagram, Facebook,
Reddit, and emailed and
all different places
they got coming in here.
Is there anything
that you think we
should be talking
about that was missed?
I don't know
anything I missed.
That was, that
was pretty.
That was exhaustive.
That was pretty hardcore.
You did good.
Did I?
Yeah, ya did.
I probably screwed
a few of them up.
Probably, but.
Oh well, mental
management.
Ryan, thank you very
much for being on The
Silvercore Podcast.
Yeah, anytime.
Thanks.
If there's anything in
here that listeners are
listening to and they
have different thoughts
on, Hey, we want to
hear 'em, put them up.
If they think that
maybe we're off base,
let us know why and
check out IBI barrels.
I mean, give them an
email, give them a
phone call, go on their
Instagram, Facebook.
Yep.
There's people all the
time posting pictures,
asking questions, getting
the answers there.
Yeah, lots of
pictures on Instagram.
And if you're on Facebook
and you want to check
out what the barrels
are capable of, probably
the best place to go
is the International
Barrels user page.
And that's pretty much,
I run it, but it's all
mainly the vast majority
of the posts are people
that are shooting the
barrels already, it's
unbiased information
that comes directly from
them, not through us.
So it's not us cherry
picking a bunch of groups
or whatever, whatever
people want to send.
It's just straight up
results that people are
getting with the barrels
so that you can sort
of see for yourself.
And there's some
beautiful guns on there.
Yeah there are.
That guys post pictures
of, and you know, the
paint jobs and the way
they put them together.
Just make you drool.
Yeah, it does.
And the groups too, like,
you know, people post
stuff and I'm like, you
shot that with a pre fit.
Like how, like I can't
believe that it's crazy
now what you're doing
with it, you know?
So yeah, it's good.
It makes me
happy every day.
Check out all this stuff.
Well, Ryan,
thanks very much.