Former Acting ICE Director Tom Homan

FAIR's Preston Huennekens, Matthew Tragesser, and Immigration Reform Law Institute senior fellow Tom Homan, former acting director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), discuss immigration policy in the Joe Biden era.

Show Notes

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The Federation for American Immigration Reform's podcast bringing you the most important updates about U.S. immigration. Featuring special guests including members of Congress, journalists, and experts in the field.

Intro:
Today on Understanding Immigration, an interview with former ICE director Tom Homan.

Matthew:
All right welcome back to another episode of FAIR’s Understanding Immigration podcast this is Matthew Tragesser FAIR’s press secretary and I’m joined as always by Preston Huennekens from our lobbying department Spencer Raley FAIR’s director of research will not be joining us this week but we have a very special episode today. Today we have the honor to interview someone who is the former acting director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement otherwise known as ICE who is now a Fox News contributor and also a senior fellow at the Immigration Reform Law Institute. You most likely have heard of him before Tom Homan is with us, welcome to today's show, tom. (thanks guys) Tom has an extensive background in law enforcement and leadership and is just about well-versed on the immigration issue as anyone in this entire country. Now Preston and I are going to be asking tom a few questions regarding his recent trips to the border, President Biden’s new pick to head ICE, and also what the current president has done to impact immigration enforcement. All right so Tom let's start off with your recent trips to the border under the Biden administration I know you and I went down together to McAllen, Texas in late March and it was a mess to say at least you know there were hundreds of unaccompanied minors and family units who were crossing the Rio Grande river way after midnight and it really just seemed like a border crisis on all levels I know since then you've gone back down to the border a couple of times and just from your initial observations have conditions improved since we've been down there have they stayed the same or what exactly are you seeing right now?

Tom:
Well the conditions haven't improved at all that's why it's kind of disheartening to see the president saying they got some better control of this now he said that on national media today and the secretary said it too when they're talking about when they say they got better control which means they're getting better at releasing people right so that's not control that is just further uncontrol when you got to release people because you don't have the space to hold them that tells you got a crisis right so when you got a plan to release people faster so there's no overcrowding that's not control gentlemen that is out of control so bottom line is more people coming across instead of concentrating on securing the border, detaining making people… and as far as the whole message of these are asylum seekers, how do they know that? Because they're not even doing initial asylum interviews, they're processing people and trying real fast to get them released as soon as possible to go to a you know an NGO facility stay in the hotel room for a couple days to get released with a brand new iPhone a brand new cell phone at taxpayer expense so it's the whole messaging on this is flawed it's not by accidents flawed. I think they're misleading the American people what's going on in the border.

Preston:
And so Tom you've just described some of certainly the pull factors from the perspective of the United States where the blind administration has completely blown up some of these agreements such as the migrant protection protocols such as the asylum agreements with the northern triangle countries that were preventing a lot of this mess but you know for and you mentioned too the Biden administration talking points they are really hitting on the push factors from Central America you know and I wanted to get your sense of which of those two really is it? Is it really that conditions in Central America are so bad that all of these people are legitimate asylum seekers or is it because of the policies of the Biden administration that many of these people now believe they have a better chance of getting into the U.S. by claiming asylum?

Tom:
Look I’ve been I’ve been to El Salvador I’ve been to Guatemala I’ve been Honduras bottom line (and Mexico many times) the United States is a better country we're the best we're the best country on the face of the earth so that that's never going to change the issue is it isn't about conditions in the Central American countries all you got to do is look at the court data if you go to DOJ website an immigration court, EOIR website it clearly says that 84 to 89 percent of Central Americans who claim fear at the border never get relief from the U.S. courts they don't win their case because either they don't show up in court or they don't qualify so you know I like to stick to the legal terminology so if nine out of ten don't qualify and you look at the Homeland Security and life cycle report out of the hundreds of thousands of these people who lost their case that ninety percent, less than three percent leave so President Trump got it right he saw the data he knows that… why would you continue to release people United States when they clearly commit some sort of immigration fraud claiming asylum when they don't qualify at all but they do it because they know they're going to be released and they never have to show up and never have to leave. Trump got it right so he said you know what I’m going to have the Remain in Mexico program so these people aren't being released you know never to show up in court, never to leave. President Biden has access to the same data and he chose okay ninety percent don't qualify, three percent never leave, all right let's let them go it's ridiculous so I said this isn't mismanagement, this is by design, they want these people here and they know they're never going to leave. So, the Trump administration gave us the most secure border I’ve seen in my career, illegal immigration was down between 60 and 80 percent depending what month you look at, children, UAC coming across the border was down over 70 percent and within two weeks Biden tore down everything Trump and he went from 33,000 apprehensions in March of last year to 172,000 apprehensions this year. So this is about pull factors, this is about promises president Biden made during a campaign, the promises he kept by signing executive orders and so this is his words, his actions have caused this crisis and they can go down to Central America all they want to tell people now is not time to come, don't come now, actions speak louder than words, these people aren’t stupid when a family unit gets released from a hotel room with a brand new iPhone they get to their final destination you don't think they're calling their relatives and friends and telling hey I was in a hotel room for two days, they fed me really good food for a couple days, they gave me this brand new iPhone, now I’m in Chicago, my husband has been here illegally forever. No, actions speak louder than words they can say anything they want, their actions their words… it started with their words during the campaign but their actions since he's been in the White House is driving this crisis.

Matthew:
Tom I got to ask you regarding the Donna facility, there was an article by Fox News yesterday saying that the facility has gone from holding 5,000 migrants to about just a couple hundred and the White House right now is saying that these migrants have been transferred to HHS facilities and that's where they all are now, do you truly believe that all these migrants are at HHS or is the reason why the Donna facility is so empty is because of the Biden administration's catch and release policy and so people aren't even being placed in detention anymore they're just being released and never really seen again?

Tom:
It's a little bit of both, when they say they're in HHS custody that's kind of a play on words they're in that they're in the custody of you know these NGOs who got multi-million dollar contracts like Endeavors to stay in hotel rooms, Donna is more or less a processing site to get into an NGO or one of these contracts, but we know a lot are being released or being released quicker and what's really concerning is that during the Trump administration we had the one surge, we did DNA testing with the family units to make sure they're actually families we found as high as 30% of families weren't really families, it was children being trafficking the other thing is these children is when they get released to their sponsors the vetting that was done during the Trump administration was very extensive but people complain it's taking too long to release the kids well because we're making sure these kids aren't being released to someone that's number one it isn't a child predator, isn't someone that's going to you know abuse this child make sure they're being released to a safe environment they've cut that vetting down a lot because they’re in such a hurry to release people it concerns me who these children are being released to so I think a little bit of both I think they're getting better at releasing kids quickly which again they call success I call a problem and I think they're moving quickly out of Donna to these NGO facilities you know this administration would be why you have someone at Donna, they'd be in a hotel room at $374 a night at taxpayer expense.

Matthew:
Right and for our listeners out there the Donna facility is located in the southern tip of Texas and it's in the Rio Grande valley so the Rio Grande valley is really a hot spot right now for illegal migration especially with the family and unaccompanied minors when we were down there we kind of drove by it…

Tom
Don't forget now it's the same facility that Democrats in the Trump administration Democrats’ catch was it was a caging facility where kids were caged you don't hear that now they're using the same exact facility but you don't hear that word cage anymore that's kind of weird and not I mean again that shows the politicization you don't have AOC down there finding an empty parking lot next to a chain link fence claiming she's outside the facility she was never outside of either. It's a whole new different dynamic now

Matthew:
Right so I want to ask you kind of changing gears a bit you know as someone who was the acting director of immigration and customs enforcement under the Trump administration what are your initial thoughts of this new appointed head to lead the agency for listeners out there the new head of ICE is named Ed Gonzalez who previously served as the sheriff of Harris County in Texas you know Tom can he get the job done right now?

Tom:
I think he's a perfect choice for this administration so they want somebody that's not going to enforce immigration law they want somebody who doesn't… look when he was the sheriff one of the first things he did when he became sheriff is stop all cooperation with ICE and now he's their director?? I mean could you find a better pick for this administration? you know so I think he's exactly what they're looking for because they want ICE to be crippled, they're already crippled the numbers came out yesterday they had the lowest number of arrests and removals in the last month of the history of the agency so you know yeah they got the right guy to continue tearing down immigration enforcement in this country and you know and you look at the numbers 90% of the criminals they arrested last year and removed last year they can't arrest this year. I’m at an event here I was here I gave a speech here today at an event in Brownsville by the Nightlight Group, is a bunch of ladies who got together and they're fighting child trafficking on the border, I came down to give a speech to them so and I also gave a speech to the Remembrance Project right afterwards this Remembrance Project right afterwards, this Remembrance Project are those who represent Angel moms and dads. Criminals are walking out of jails across this country every day, criminals! Public safety threats. So and when the borders… so number one you got criminals going back into the community, in the very communities which was an immigrant community, which puts our immigrant communities at a greater risk of crime, you got the borders out of control we all know on average 20 percent of everybody apprehended by Border Patrol has a criminal history, but there's 1500 a day not being arrested, so there's going to be more victims of alien crime, there's going to be more angel dads and angel moms because of these open borders policies. So, this new guy running ICE, I mean for a guy whose first action as a sheriff was to stop cooperation with ICE, he'd be my last choice, but for this administration who wants to tear down the agency he's a perfect choice.

Preston:
And Tom I’ve got to ask you on that point there's been some talk among House Democrats about using the power of the purse to defund the 287(g) program within ICE and hearing you talk about in this case Gonzalez being a perfect pick as you know the ICE director, is this something that he would be able to do without Congress just as the director of ICE? Is there a way that if and when he's confirmed by the Senate he could come in and just say look we're going to stop these programs, we don't even need Congress to do it for us?

Tom:
I don't think you do look I’m not an attorney but when I when we had 287(g) program, I signed a lot of 287(g) agreements, I did. So it's up to the judgment the ICE director who he wants to enter an agreement with so I think yeah I think he he'll be in a programming position to kill them and which again you got you got the President of the United States saying public safety threats, the priorities remain for ICE to arrest public safety threats, you got the Democrats already saying ICE should concentrate on criminals and not everybody else and so they say they’re concentrating on criminals then they lock you out of jail. Another thing about the Biden administration they’ve done, don't forget a few weeks ago he dropped the sanctuary cities lawsuit that President Trump started so don't tell me you want ICE to arrest public safety threats and criminals when you lock us out of jail, you support the sanctuary city movement, and you want to end the 287(g) program! They're, again actions speak louder than words, I hope the American people… they need to watch the actions of this administration more than the words because they're lying to the American people.

Preston:
And I want to follow up on this as well I’m not sure if you've had a chance to follow up with this at all but what does the nomination of someone like a Gonzalez what does that do for morale within an agency like ICE I mean is this seemingly is would be a slap in the face for many of the career officials there who are you know they're there for the mission, they believe in what they're doing and then the president turns around and nominates someone who has actively worked against what ICE has tried to do in local communities with the 287(g) program. I just wanted to see if you had any thoughts on that at all?

Tom:
Well I think it's the final stab in the back of ICE agents, their morale is already at an all-time low they're not allowed to do their job, they're not allowed to uphold the oath they took to enforce the laws of this country. They’ve got to watch criminals walk out of the jails every day and not be allowed to touch them, they gotta watch child predators walk out of courthouses every day not allowed to touch them now with a new courthouse rule I said when they when they nominate somebody who everybody knows that the first thing he did was stop cooperation with ICE when he was a sheriff, I mean it's just the final dig at the ICE agents. I mean I feel bad for these guys and morale's at an all-time low and they just you know they're killed they killed their morale. And it's much more liberating when President Trump nominated me as ICE director, morale was at an all-time high per the federal employee viewpoint survey the feds report I said the highest morale they ever had, why? Because one of their own who did the job was nominated and you know and I’ve said it I said in my speech today my biggest honor I had 20,000 men and women under my command, I never asked them to do a single thing that I didn't do as an agent ‘cause I came up through the ranks. And it's meaningful when you come up through the ranks because you know the system, you know what works, you know what doesn't, you know how the job is carried out you know the difficulties you know the strengths and now you got a share of coming in look. I respect the man that he served in law enforcement, I respect that because I love cops and they put themselves in harm's way, but when you're going to run a federal law enforcement agency that enforces immigration law and you absolutely don't believe in the enforcement of that law, you shouldn't be their director. It's that simple.

Matthew:
So Tom what do you think the end goal of all this is because obviously there's been a lot of inaction at the southern border, you know Kamala Harris hasn't visited the border yet, President Biden hasn't visited the border yet, apprehensions keep soaring, I mean obviously there has to be some kind of end goal…

Tom:
It’s borders open borders, this is their plan, this is by design. And the reason I say this is a plan because number one not only do you undo everything Trump did that was a success and they know it they caused this border surge they wanted this border surge this is about bringing more people into the United States and what else they do when they open the borders is several other things number one they they're out the sanctuary city lawsuit they support sanctuary cities number two they crippled ICE so ICE can't arrest people in the interior now think about this now then they overturn the Census rules so these people can be counted in the Census. This is all these things they've done is part of a major plan and they they're not very good at hiding it to create an open borders agenda, welcome more people into this country who they believe is going to be future Democratic voters. This is what open borders looks like and there is you got to give them credit they're executing their plan pretty brilliantly this is about open borders look elections has consequences, President Trump tried to warn them what would happen, and look I wrote an op-ed back in July last year saying this would happen if Joe Biden became president just based of the promises, he made so again this… their plan is coming together this is open border you know. To the people who listen to your show, this is what open borders looks like, this is what some American people voted for so hopefully now they see what a travesty this is for our sovereignty and our safety of American people maybe they'll think differently in the next election I don't know what to tell you.

Matthew:
Now I also got to ask you kind of shifting more to Mexico and the northern triangle countries I’ve seen recently that the president of Mexico the president of El Salvador and the president of Guatemala have all said that Biden's mixed messaging have created this border crisis and they're kind of becoming frustrated with the administration and how they're handling the southern border do you think that the relationship between the northern triangle countries and Mexico and our country is fractured under the Biden administration's leadership?

Tom:
No I don't you know I think that's I think that's a political game I think it's smoke and mirrors bottom line is all these countries benefit from the United States having unlawful illegal immigration last year alone Mexico received 40 billion dollars that's with a b 40 billion dollars of remits payments from those in the country here illegally they're sending money back home that's 40 billion dollars of free money for Mexico to go to families that they don't have to take care of they don't have to provide social services for billions of dollars a year since these countries in remittance payments the more illegal immigration this country, the better off these countries are, they're getting rid of people that you know aren't working in their country they're coming here and sending free money back to the country I truly believe that and I know but I think you know the president of Mexico said that President Biden's promises caused this crisis they're telling the truth but do they really want to fix a problem that serves them billions of dollars a year and free money from U.S. I don't see it.

Matthew:
All right it looks like all the time that we have today we'd like to thank Tom Homan for joining us today it's been a true pleasure and an honor to speak to someone who has served under this country for many years and who served as the acting director of ICE under the Trump administration.

Tom:
All right thanks guys I appreciate you having me.

Matthew:
All right so that was definitely a very interesting interview there Preston you know I want to get your initial thoughts you know what struck out most to you from Tom?

Preston:
I think one of the most striking things that he said was when he said that the nomination of Ed Gonzalez to be the ICE director was perfect for this administration and at first I was kind of thinking to myself is he really about to support this guy but then he went into explaining how, for a president like Joe Biden who is committed to eviscerating immigration enforcement in this country, someone like Sheriff Gonzalez is a perfect fit and I think that Tom really did a great job of explaining how bad this guy would be as the director of ICE and I’m glad that I was able to ask him a question about morale in the agency because it really seems like they just get every single time they get the short stick and so you know it was it was interesting to hear him say that about that he shares our concerns with Gonzalez being tapped to lead ICE.

Matthew:
No I would definitely agree and you know for our listeners out there this guy is as bad of a pick as it sounds you know he has no federal leadership experience, he has no federal government experience whatsoever and he has demonstrated on Twitter in 2018 and 2019 literally vehemently opposing ICE’s enforcement missions he called out its enforcement operations in 2019 he also called for in 2018 on Twitter that certain classes of legal aliens should not be held in detention and now this guy is running ICE I mean it's really concerning to say the least and I’m glad that Tom you know showed his opinions about Sheriff Gonzales but you know just for listeners out there this is not the right guy to lead this agency especially as our southern border continues to see apprehensions we've never seen before on record.

Preston:
Yeah I think one other thing that I just was reminded of thinking about the interview we did was him talking about you know the authority the ICE director has in approving 287(g) agreements and while tom said he didn't think that the ICE director could unilaterally just stop all of them he did say that you know there's a good chance that there will not be a single new 287(g) agreement signed under the tenure of President Joe Biden and under the tenure of you know presumptive ICE director Gonzales which is really startling it's very disappointing because these are agreements that are forced multipliers for ICE they keep dangerous criminals off of the streets and it allows the United States to remove criminal illegal aliens from the U.S. and it's just really disappointing that we have a president and we have people leading ICE that don't want to utilize this tool at all.

Matthew:
No I totally agree I think 287(g) is definitely a game changer and it really helps you know secure our borders but it doesn't have to be used in border stage board of communities it can be used anywhere in the interior of the country and it helps you know kind of facilitate cooperation between ICE and the local law enforcement in these communities it's just head scratching to see why someone would want this to be removed why it's not being fully implemented more but changing gears a bit you know I think another startling not startling thing but just very interesting thing that Tom said during this interview was that the Biden administration and these Biden officials know full well that what's happening at the southern border is intentional they want as many people to come to the country as possible even illegally and there really are a lot of political implications with this so it's kind of like a longer term strategy and I think I have to agree with that you know I think this is definitely coordinated you know exactly what's going on it's you know it's sad that they're doing it in this way but no this is definitely kind of political warfare at this point. All right well that's all the time that we have today unfortunately we hope that you've enjoyed today's episode and perhaps learned something new about the Biden border crisis from someone who has seen it from their own eyes multiple times in the past few months and who has worked directly with the immigration issue for decades we'd like to thank Tom for making time to join us today and as a reminder we'll be releasing a new episode every other Monday our episodes are available on most platforms including Spotify, Apple podcasts and Google podcasts. You can also visit our website at fairus.org to access these episodes and also on our Twitter we post them frequently and our twitter handle is @FAIRImmigration so please visit our Twitter feed to access these episodes and we hope each and every one of you are continuing to stay safe and sound and until next time this has been Understanding Immigration presented by FAIR.