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The Healthy Project Podcast is your go-to source for thought-provoking conversations on health equity, public health, and social determinants of health. Hosted by Corey Dion Lewis, each episode explores the intersection of community health, policy, and innovation, offering insights from experts and changemakers who are leading the charge in creating healthier, more equitable communities. Whether you're a healthcare professional, public health advocate, or simply passionate about making a difference, this podcast equips you with the knowledge and inspiration to drive meaningful change. Join us on the journey to build a healthier, more just world—one conversation at a time.
Corey Dion Lewis (00:01.014)
Hello everybody. Thank you for listening to the healthy project podcast. I'm your host, Corey Dion Lewis. Uh, I have a great guest with me today. Uh, Jennifer Wolf is in the building, Jennifer. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.
Jennifer Wolf (00:16.086)
Thank you for having me. Hello, my name is Maginidog. Jennifer Wolf, my name is Nishnukas. I am from Gijugunkwa, my name is Ojibwa. I am from Waswagening, I am from Konakoni, I am from Nindujuba. I am from Wabasheshe, I am from Nindudum. I am Jennifer Wolf. I am from Lac du Flambeau, Wisconsin. I'm, but that's my Ojibwa side. But I'm also an enrolled member of the Ponca tribe. My...
So quote unquote Indian name is edge of sky woman, which is that little sliver of light that happens at dusk or dawn that represents a time of change. And I do embrace my role in this world as a change maker. And finally, my family clan is the Martin clan. And traditionally those clans are handed down through your mother, but because of, you know,
marriages and whatnot. That is actually my great grandmother's clan that we have just kind of embraced as a whole family unit. So thank you for having me here today. That is a traditional Ojibwe greeting.
Corey Dion Lewis (01:21.526)
Wow, that's so beautiful. That's so cool.
Corey Dion Lewis (01:26.83)
Ojibwa. Did I say that right? Okay. That's Chippewa. Okay.
Jennifer Wolf (01:28.871)
Yes, and it's also known as Chippewa. We also call ourselves Anishinaabe. So yep.
Corey Dion Lewis (01:34.694)
Okay, that's the first and last time through this conversation. I'm gonna try to say that because I'm not trying to be disrespectful. So again, thank you so much. Before we get started into the conversation, can you tell the people a little bit more about yourself and what gets you up in the morning?
Jennifer Wolf (01:41.074)
No problem.
Jennifer Wolf (01:54.19)
Gosh, what gets me up in the morning? I embrace my role as a mother, an indigenous person, a cisgender female. My pronouns are she, her, and hers, although my tribe doesn't use pronouns. So, you know, traditionally, that's not part of my traditional greeting and introduction. But yes, I do wanna be inclusive in the way I introduce myself, so.
Those are my pronouns. So I do greet the world with that positionality. I was raised biculturally between reservation setting and an urban setting. So that also influences the way I greet the world. And somebody is now trimming weeds right outside my window. I might have to change locations. Can we put this on pause? You can't hear it? OK, great.
Corey Dion Lewis (02:46.493)
I can't hear it so no we're good
Jennifer Wolf (02:49.874)
Okay, good, because he is right outside my window.
Jennifer Wolf (02:56.622)
So yeah, typically every morning, I do put my, as my mother has recommended for me, I put my feet on the ground. Some days during when it's snowy, I ask for forgiveness not to do that. But I do try to spend part of my morning with actually connecting my body to the earth and remembering that I'm connected to everything and everyone.
Corey Dion Lewis (03:11.787)
I'm sorry.
Corey Dion Lewis (03:23.702)
That's awesome. That's awesome. You know, there's something so, you know, beautiful about that, about those traditions and that you're carrying them on, you know, you know what I mean? And still doing your thing there. Can you tell us a little bit more about your journey? Like what influenced you? I know you're the founder of Project Mosaic, so I would like to talk a little bit more about that. What influenced that journey for you?
Jennifer Wolf (03:52.002)
Yeah, I initially started my college journey thinking I was gonna be a physician and then heard a doctor named Lois Steele who is from North Dakota talk about her journey as a healer and how she always had that calling to be a healer. And I had to reflect, I'm not a healer.
I didn't have that secret calling, but yet I was still really good at science. So she was the keynote speaker at a conference I was attending. And as soon as she walked off the stage, I grabbed her and we went out into the hall and I cried on her shoulder and told her that I didn't have the sacred calling, but I didn't know what to do about being a scientist. And she said, be a scientist. That's easy. You can.
Corey Dion Lewis (04:18.203)
Hahaha
Jennifer Wolf (04:47.55)
you know, your family will be just as proud of you if you become a scientist as if you were a doctor. And so I was a chemist for the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. I did research on herbal compounds, and I always tried to find a way to bring my Indigenous culture into whatever I was doing, even my role as a scientist. So, you know, I had these various chapters of my life where I
in sales and then I worked in public health and diabetes prevention and it just felt like I was assembling all these puzzle pieces to who I am that I didn't when I started thinking about what sort of business I wanted to do and what skills I had I felt like I am a mosaic in and of myself. And
then I started thinking about communities as being a mosaic as well and how, gosh, there used to be this schoolhouse rock episode that would play during Sunday morning cartoons called, it was about the Great American Melting Pot. And I always just thought that was such a gross concept to have like this people soup that was just all blended together. Everyone's beautiful differences were being melted away. And I thought how-
Corey Dion Lewis (06:09.247)
Right.
Jennifer Wolf (06:11.978)
much more beautiful is a mosaic, where we think about each person as being a different color that adds to the beauty of the whole mosaic. And we think about different ways that we can piece together and complement one another. So that's kind of what inspired me to start Project Mosaic, to maybe do diversity, equity and inclusion training in schools and hospitals about
Corey Dion Lewis (06:18.646)
Word, yeah.
Jennifer Wolf (06:40.086)
what do doctors or teachers need to know about their stakeholders who are of different colors.
Corey Dion Lewis (06:47.562)
Right, no, that's real. And you know, just for me and for a lot of people, when we think disparities or the social determinants, it's, you know, for me, it's the African American or black community, but there are disparities in all communities, you know? And so from your perspective, you know, what do you see?
Jennifer Wolf (07:02.658)
Mm-hmm.
Corey Dion Lewis (07:13.434)
as some of the major disparities for Indigenous Americans.
Jennifer Wolf (07:17.91)
You know, when it comes to disparities, Native Americans and Indigenous Americans, and I use those terms interchangeably, although Indigenous people can apply to people from lots of different cultures, Maori's from New Zealand, you know, different tribal folks from Africa or, you know, all sorts of different places. You can be Indigenous to wherever you live. But when I do say Native American and Indigenous American, I kind of use those.
interchangeably because we are living in the U.S. But, you know, there's the Sami tribe people from the Scandinavian countries. So anyway, just wanted to clarify that before I move on. But yeah, Indigenous Americans, unfortunately, have some of the greatest health disparities. In fact, that impacts us according to the Indian Health Services, that we have a life expectancy that is five and a half years less than all.
Corey Dion Lewis (08:01.091)
Yeah.
Jennifer Wolf (08:16.806)
US race populations together 73 years compared to 78 and a half. So we have super high rates of diabetes and heart disease and some of those are connected to our drastic changes from our traditional diets. We didn't have processed sugars and processed flour and all of these different things.
Jennifer Wolf (08:46.086)
have one or two grains in our lives. We had dozens of grains that we brought into our diets. 150 years ago, these are very fast changes for us. And then you add on top of that educational disparities, disproportionate poverty, access to health care issues, discrimination and delivery of health services. My family has certainly experienced that. And then
Corey Dion Lewis (08:51.586)
Right.
Jennifer Wolf (09:12.77)
generally cultural differences, and that all piles up on adding to that difference in life expectancy and those differences in diseases. And one of the most concerning to me is suicide. Suicide is the second leading cause of death for Native American youth ages 10 to 24. And the Native youth teen suicide rates are about 3.0.
five times higher than the national average, according to the Center for Native American Youth. So that is one of those heartbreaking statistics that I don't think a lot of people are aware of, but certainly has impacted my family and a lot of people that I'm really close to.
Corey Dion Lewis (09:57.898)
Yeah, and it's something you said to me when we first spoke, just connecting and talking about the, just hoping you would be on the podcast is the, the lack of accurate data around some of these things. And, you know, so you kind of touched on it a little bit, but you know, how does the lack of accurate data affect the ability to address health and social issues when, with these communities?
Jennifer Wolf (10:24.841)
Oh yeah.
Jennifer Wolf (10:28.222)
Absolutely. Oftentimes we are aggregated with other populations, asterisks as quote-unquote other, or left out of data altogether because oftentimes researchers want to show statistically significant differences before or after an intervention or between categories and that because we have such low numbers, you know, anywhere from, you know, one to three percent of the population, that it's often easier for them to just, you know, aggregate us or
asterisk us or leave us out. So that really renders us invisible, which is a huge problem because erasure is the modern form of racism for Native Americans when we're just ignored altogether. You know, a lot of educational curriculum doesn't cover Native Americans. Past 1800s, if you ask a lot of Native Americans to, or a lot of Americans across the US to name a famous Native American, they'll usually...
start rattling off some chiefs from the 1800s and then double erasure for Native American women. So I think, fortunately we have folks like and leaders contemporary society, such as Deb Haaland, our US secretary of the interior, but our visibility is definitely a problem that affects us and including in health data, which affects how
Corey Dion Lewis (11:35.235)
Mmm.
Jennifer Wolf (11:56.034)
health care is delivered because if you take away our ability to make the case that there's even a crisis happening, you know, you can sweep these crises under the rug. And that takes away our ability to make the case for funding, for research, for program planning, and it just affects us in every way. So I really encourage
researchers to, you know, ignore the, your ability to, to show statistically significant results in every single category. Yes, we're small. Make that your asterisk that this was a small number, we're reporting raw data. Disaggregate. Make statistical adjustments, such as age adjustments. And then also, you know, look at ways to perform meta-analysis to look at data across many studies so that you can pool together some of that data.
Corey Dion Lewis (12:51.306)
Yeah, it just, it sounds like just lumping a group of people into one is just the easier thing to do. Yeah.
Jennifer Wolf (13:01.386)
Yeah, it's such a problem. And it's a problem for my colleagues in my PhD program at the University of North Dakota, Indigenous Health PhD program, who are native Hawaiian, because often Asian and Pacific Islanders are lumped together. So when you're in Hawaii, you've got a lot of Asian-Americans who have high socioeconomic status, and you've got the Indigenous Hawaiians who have very different struggles and very different health and...
in a situation. So when they're all pooled together in data, that's a huge problem. And then in terms of data sovereignty and governance, that's another issue. You know, so many researchers have come into Indigenous communities and been so extractive in their relationship with research where they've wanted to study us because, you know, we do have all these huge health disparities and so they want to...
test the worst of the worst. But then they don't give us access to our own data. So, we're unable to see the backend of a lot of these studies so that we can plan our own interventions. And honestly, some of these solutions could best come from within. So if any research is happening in tribal communities or urban native communities, the folks that helped.
Corey Dion Lewis (14:02.946)
Hmm.
Jennifer Wolf (14:28.958)
you get that data should be partial owners of it and part of its governance as well.
Corey Dion Lewis (14:34.85)
So are they just going into these communities with their own thoughts and ideas on what's going to happen and what they're looking for with no regard for the cultural aspect or some of those things that play a role in someone's experience?
Jennifer Wolf (14:51.466)
Absolutely, and really just leaving without giving any solutions or, you know, now what? So that's traditionally been how it's been, but slowly, slowly we're moving the needle as more natives are becoming researchers.
Corey Dion Lewis (14:58.359)
Right.
Corey Dion Lewis (15:06.734)
Oh, that's, that's good. It's, it's unfortunate that you got to be in the role to see that happen, I guess, for me, but at least, you know, you're, you're doing what you can and, and you'll.
You know, staying within kind of that, I'm really into cultural competency, especially within healthcare and someone's healthcare experience. Can you share your thoughts on the cultural barriers that exist for indigenous or Native Americans in healthcare? And what steps can be taken to rebuild that trust while respecting cultural heritage?
Jennifer Wolf (15:43.818)
Yeah, that mistrust is a huge one. And we saw that really play out during the COVID pandemic where you had a lot of attitudes of Native Americans saying, well, they're probably just doing research on us. And I'm sure that was the case in African-American communities. We're not just gonna do things just because the CDC or the government tells us to, because our relationship with the government has been fractured and harmful to us.
Corey Dion Lewis (15:46.05)
Mmm.
Jennifer Wolf (16:12.574)
And we've had a lot of similar things to the African American community where you all have the Tuskegee experiments. We have a lot of experiments that were conducted on children in boarding and residential schools where children were deliberately malnourished. We also have a lot of incidences of forced sterilization. So those natural misgivings that we have for the government and health care in general.
is well founded. So we have to, if we want to address and make communication strategies or interventions geared towards Native American, we have to acknowledge that and not belittle and paint Native Americans as being anti-science because we're very pro-science. We are some of the, you know, world's premier scientists who gave the world agricultural gifts, who gave the world, you know, a lot of...
innovation and know-how in almost every aspect of society. So respecting that indigenous knowledge and our ability to find our own solutions is gonna help rebuild that trust and also acknowledging the harms of the past. And then also realizing that sometimes the messengers are gonna come from within.
Corey Dion Lewis (17:13.526)
Right.
Jennifer Wolf (17:36.106)
we're gonna listen to our own community members. If it's our own elders asking us to get vaccinated or whatever the case may be to get healthy, then we're probably gonna listen to that person more than just someone in a white coat. And then also just being patient with indigenous patients. Relationships take time. So, you know, often when healthcare providers come and meet a new native patient, they...
Corey Dion Lewis (17:39.882)
Right.
Jennifer Wolf (18:03.03)
Don't take the time to talk about where they came from and who they are. And that positionality is so important to build trust because we all have families, we all have culture. Whether that's from Germany or whatever. And if you take some time to talk about who your people are and where you're coming from, then that helps build that trust and because we can see that you are someone that.
Corey Dion Lewis (18:18.75)
Right.
Jennifer Wolf (18:29.462)
that's coming into this relationship with a desire for reciprocity.
Corey Dion Lewis (18:34.078)
Right. So, you know, given your, your background in public health and also the Native American yourself, you know, being that's your community, you find it easy or is it difficult to, to navigate? You know, I'm sure people see, see you or you're saying, hey,
This is what the data says. And is it hard for you to get through to your community or do you find that, is that easier for your community because it's coming from you?
Jennifer Wolf (19:06.85)
Gosh, you know, I have found such a great solace in my cohort and my PhD program. We're all going through similar struggles. And yeah, I do feel like it's easier for me to connect as someone who's coming from public health from being in the indigenous community, because I understand the struggles. I have the patience and the desire to build those relationships. And I also come with a...
deep heartfelt belief that we have incredible strengths to build upon. I think any of the health communication strategies that I've worked on or interventions have been strengths and asset-based because we faced all these 500 years of hardships of oppression, of war, of epidemics, but we've survived those. We have the ability to...
to lean on one another, to lean on our communities, to look for our cultural connections, to look for our connections with the natural environment. And we have a lot of tools. Our, yeah, our family structures are so beautiful and our stories and our other cultural ways. And that just adds to our resilience. And so I think that respect
and understanding really does help me connect with a lot of my indigenous public health stakeholders.
Corey Dion Lewis (20:42.282)
No, I love that. I love that. As you're, are there any new things as you're going through this program, getting your PhD and just doing really great things, are there things that you're learning that you're like, man, I didn't know this about, coming from your background and from your experiences, what are some new...
new things you're learning, are there challenges that you're now realizing that are big challenges for your community that you never really recognized before?
Jennifer Wolf (21:14.562)
Well, I think I'm really excited going through this program because I do recognize that now more than ever there's such this movement and this desire for research not to just be done on Native communities or with Native communities but by Natives, by Native researchers and I'm just part of this whole scene that I knew was there but I didn't really know.
Corey Dion Lewis (21:29.358)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Wolf (21:40.178)
all the different areas of influence that native researchers are having. And it's just really exciting. But I think one thing we all share is this demand for data sovereignty and this demand for data governance. So, you know, all of us researchers can't do what we do without data. And so I think we need to really partner with Western scientists to make sure they understand the importance of that. Some of the other exciting.
developments that I'm learning about is integrated care, where it is this blend in this, what we hear a lot about in my program is two-eyed seeing, where we're, you know, seeing our traditional and our cultural ways of knowing and ways of being and scientific insights blended with the Western way. And I think that healthcare
is starting to embrace that integrated care as well. There's a lot of curiosity about it and learning that's happening. The South Central Foundation in Alaska is developing a lot of policies and best practices in their NUCCA system of care and UKA. And I work with a lot of native health institutions who are interested in our actually
headed up to Alaska to do site visits and learn about that and think about how they can bring that back to their own communities. So that's something that's really exciting in the future of indigenous health.
Corey Dion Lewis (23:17.066)
No, that's very, very cool. And actually that was my next question talking about the future of indigenous health. If we can talk a little bit more about the data aspect of, because from what I hear is if we don't have the right data, how can we take care of our people? So what are there things that are currently happening that you're seeing are getting better
improving that research and that data or is there still a ways to go?
Jennifer Wolf (23:52.246)
You know, one of the exciting movements that is happening as well is several tribes are establishing their own internal institutional review boards. So some of the IRBs are being established with the cooperation of not only the tribe, but sometimes that's managed by the tribal college that may be in that community. So I think us setting our boundaries that you will not come in here, researcher, and work with our people.
without us being involved with it from the get-go and making sure that the whole principles of do no harm and protecting the interests of the subjects. There's a movement to call, the NUCCA system of care refers to the patients as actually customers. And then there's also a movement to call patients and research subjects relatives.
Corey Dion Lewis (24:30.002)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Wolf (24:50.494)
So if we see patients and research subjects as relatives, then we're gonna naturally treat them with respect.
Corey Dion Lewis (24:51.022)
Hmm.
Corey Dion Lewis (24:59.338)
Yeah, I always thought calling patients, patients was just very cold. I never liked it, but that's just, that's the language that's at the hospital, you know, that people use. I've never liked it, but I'm glad there's, I'm gonna start that trend here. Just, I got that from Jennifer. We're gonna start some. Yeah.
Jennifer Wolf (25:18.854)
We're going to start calling relatives. Make sure it's a relative you like, not that one. Don't have that one relative in mind when you're saying that word. Your favorite auntie.
Corey Dion Lewis (25:22.186)
Yeah.
Corey Dion Lewis (25:27.586)
Yeah, somebody that I rock with. Exactly. Yes, yes. That is it. So it sounds like the future of Native health is on the rise and there are great people doing great things. Are there disparities? What are some of the current disparities that you're working on? Are some things that people...
um, need to know, or are there, are there certain health issues that, um, you're working on currently with the people that you, that you support.
Jennifer Wolf (26:02.83)
Gosh, I'm working on health communications in general, trying to determine who are these, who do Native Americans trust? There's a principle of homophily, being able to see yourself in, like whether it's a piece of art or a health message or whatever, we respond better when we see ourselves in what we're looking at or what we're hearing. So how can we establish that homophily and health messages?
And, but some of my cohorts, our cohort members are studying things like substance abuse and ways to integrate traditional healing and practices into treating substance abuse. I think that's really exciting. And then also different ways of looking at suicide. But as I mentioned with the Native American youth.
experiencing such a high rate, three and a half times higher than the national average, that is just, you know, that's a crisis. But are there ways that we can look back at our culture to think about what is happening with Native Americans who are, you know, have suicidal ideation? Might that be, you know, as I've heard from somebody from a different tribe, they in their cultural tradition.
when someone's going through that change of life and that big transition and adolescence, that is a time when they are hearing things from possibly the spirit world or hearing things back from their ancestors. And that may be scary for them. And that may make them think about maybe their places in that other world. So if we looked at...
adolescence as that sacred time in a teen's life and help them understand that if they're feeling depressed, if they're feeling hopeless, it's a natural time in their life because they're starting to think about their path forward. And it's difficult to think about embracing your role as a leader, but helping them understand traditionally how those change of life and coming of age
Jennifer Wolf (28:21.89)
ceremonies happen where we acknowledge that sacred time in their life and how it's natural for them to have these strong feelings and fear that fear is a natural partner to bravery and you know thinking about different cultural ways to view this stage of their life and where they're going and maybe possibly giving them
Corey Dion Lewis (28:46.582)
Awesome, that's amazing, that's amazing. Jennifer, thank you so much for your time and being on the podcast with me today. I really appreciated it. For those that are listening, that want to learn more about you, learn more about the Mosaic Project, where can they find you and where can they reach out?
Jennifer Wolf (29:07.018)
Yeah, Project Mosaic LLC.com is my website. I'm also on Twitter on Project Mosaic CO and Instagram on Project Mosaic LLC. Oh, the other thing I did wanna mention, I don't know if you wanna shoehorn it in the end here or edit it back in, but the other exciting movement that is happening is that of the food sovereignty movement, making sure that people have access to their traditional.
Corey Dion Lewis (29:23.202)
Yeah, let's do it.
Jennifer Wolf (29:35.454)
foods and medicines in their own community and sharing those resources and bringing that back because I, you know, as I mentioned, we've had such drastic changes from our traditional diet that have led to heart disease and diabetes and all of these other sorts of diseases. And so if we can look back to the way we were meant to eat and increase our access to those foods where, you know, some of these reservation communities are food deserts.
Corey Dion Lewis (29:38.434)
No.
Jennifer Wolf (30:04.464)
then we can improve our health.
Corey Dion Lewis (30:06.61)
Yeah, so how does that work? Like, is that through an organization or how is that working?
Jennifer Wolf (30:12.05)
It is sparking up in clusters across the country, but First Nations Development Institute has a program called NATIFS, and it's Native American traditional, I don't know, something or other, NATIFS with an F though. And they are doing grants and to community-led programs, but there are some really exciting things going on. There's a group called Fast Blackfeet that I've worked with before.
Corey Dion Lewis (30:24.402)
Yeah. Okay.
Jennifer Wolf (30:42.178)
in the Blackfeet community in Montana. There is Dream of Wild Health that's happening in the Twin Cities. They have a 30 acre farm and they grow foods and they distribute food boxes to elders and schools where there's a lot of Native Americans in the Twin Cities and just doing some job training. And it's amazing. They are doing really cool things in the Twin Cities.
Corey Dion Lewis (31:08.646)
Oh, very cool, very cool. Yeah, and I'll definitely make sure that I put a link to that native, you said, with an F. First Nations Development, okay.
Jennifer Wolf (31:16.158)
It's First Nations Development Institute and I can email it to you later. Sure. Yeah, yeah. And then the other one of the couple of the programs to take a look at are Fast Black Feet and Dream of Wild Health. Those are both two of my favorites.
Corey Dion Lewis (31:23.242)
Yeah, I'll make sure I put the link in the description.
Corey Dion Lewis (31:38.01)
Oh, very cool. Very cool. I'll make sure I have those linked. It sounds like people can connect with you at your website or any other places where people, if they wanted to connect with you, where can they reach you?
Jennifer Wolf (31:50.438)
Oh gosh, yeah, Instagram, Twitter are probably the best ways or my website. My website has a contact form.
Corey Dion Lewis (31:57.222)
Awesome. Perfect. Jennifer, again, thank you so much for your time. And everybody, thank you for listening to the Healthy Project podcast. I'll highlight you next time.
Jennifer Wolf (32:08.106)
Yeah, oh, and just it's it is called the Native American traditional indigenous food systems.
Corey Dion Lewis (32:18.67)
Oh, perfect, perfect. I will make sure everybody has access to that. Awesome, thank you. All right, that's a wrap.
Jennifer Wolf (32:24.162)
Great, thank you so much.