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Welcome to The Pilot Project Podcast, your premier source for stories and insights from pilots in the RCAF and mission aviation - brought to you by Skies Magazine! Whether you're an aspiring aviator, navigating flight training, or simply fascinated by the world of military and mission aviation, this podcast is your guide. We sit down with pilots and aviation professionals to hear their thrilling experiences, lessons learned, and expert advice on resilience, training, and the skills needed to succeed in this exciting field. Strap in - we’re ready for departure!
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Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at The Pilot Project Podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and Mission Aviation Pilots brought to you by Skies Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. And once again, I'm joined by lieutenant colonel retired, Maryse Carmichael. Maryse, it is great to have you back on the show.
Bryan:Welcome back.
Maryse:Thank you.
Bryan:Listeners can check out part one to hear about Maryse's journey through air cadets, military flight training, operational flying, and eventually commanding the Snowbirds. In this part, we're going to focus on the Snowbirds themselves, what makes the organization unique, the transition from the tutor to the Siskin, and the current discussion surrounding the planned pause in performance. So let's start out by talking about some of the things that Canadians don't see when it comes to the Snowbirds. Obviously, the thing that people are most familiar with is the Snowbirds performing, the Snowbirds interacting with the public. When the Canadians see the snowbirds perform for forty five minutes at an air show, what percentage of the story are they actually seeing?
Maryse:I think when Canadians see the snowbirds perform at an air show or perhaps even at a flight pass over Canada, it is the result of months of training, of a greater team than just the nine pilots that you see, that works throughout the year to be able to put those nine airplanes in front of the public. It is truly demonstration of what the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces can do. And that's really the mission of the Snowbirds, is to really demonstrate that, and to really connect with Canadians. So, when Canadians see that, I hope that it's a true reflection of what all the men and women of the Canadian military do.
Bryan:Mhmm. When we talk about, like, a forty five minute show, how much time of that day goes into that mission? Like, how much prep time is there? What happens after? How long is that day?
Maryse:So the day typically and and I'll give you a couple different ones because depending if you're a pilot or a technician or the on the support function.
Bryan:For
Maryse:sure. As a pilot, typically, preparing for the day you arrive two and a half, three hours before the show, depending on the show site. And typically on show days, it is reserved for strictly that. So, a lot of the public appearances will happen the day prior, and interviews with the media, but certainly there will be very little before a performance. Before every mission, there's a briefing for the pilots.
Maryse:And typically, the briefing will be about thirty to forty minutes. Following the briefing, the all pilots will meet with the technicians, go over the airplane, and if there's any work that was done and all that, and then go ahead with the performance. Following the performance is probably an hour and a half, maybe two hours of signing autographs. A full debrief, which will include watching the performance that they just flew on a tape, and analyzing the errors. So the the debrief can be anywhere from forty five minutes to two hours.
Maryse:It really depends on the mission, the day, how it went, and if there's lots of errors to discuss or not. So, overall, if the show is thirty five, forty five minutes, it's probably about a six hour evolution total for the pilots on that day. For the technicians, they arrive much earlier, do all the maintenance on the aeroplanes, ensure that they're ready for the show, and then they remain on-site to ensure that the airplanes are ready, fix anything that might need to be fixed on the airplane, so that the airplanes are ready for the next day.
Bryan:Six hour day, it's not the longest day, but it sounds like those six hours are quite intense.
Maryse:They are quite intense. And there, I just talked about the show because oftentimes, there'll be a function at night. Mhmm. So there'll be a reception with perhaps the airshow organizers, fans, and all that. One saying that we had on the team is every night is a Friday night, and every morning is a Monday morning with the snowbirds.
Bryan:Which is a tough combination.
Maryse:It is a tough combination, and but we understand it well because every time you arrive at a new location for an airshow, the crowd is excited. Mhmm. Organizers are excited, and it's it's show business a little bit. A portion of it is show business. So we want to ensure that everyone enjoys the show and enjoys what the KN forces members can bring to those air shows.
Maryse:So then, yes, every Friday night, everyone is excited. Every night is a little bit like a Friday night, but then the next day, you have to be ready to fly again.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that makes sense. Right? Because, you know, for these people, to get a chance to interact with the snowbirds is, you know, for a lot of them, this is a dream come true.
Bryan:This is something they've watched and admired for probably their whole lives. And to spend an evening with you folks is probably something very, very special to them. So if you, the snowbirds, were to show up, you know, tired, not enthusiastic, not really wanting to do that stuff, that'd be pretty disappointing for them.
Maryse:Very disappointing. And every member of the Snowbirds is fully aware of their work and their job. And and we know it. We are there, and the Snowbirds are there to represent all members of the the military and to connect with Canadians. You know, as we speak, you and I, there's Canadian Forces members deployed in some 60 countries around the world.
Maryse:Canadians don't get to interact with these Canadian Forces members because they are deployed. But the Snowbirds are there to really be the link between the fans, between Canadians, and the Canadian Forces members to demonstrate, you know, the skills, the professionalism, the teamwork that all men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces have.
Bryan:You know, one thing I really wanted to ask you about was what was it like flying your first Snowbirds show in your hometown of Quebec City?
Maryse:So, you know, for me, I made the team in November 2000, did all the training over the winter, and then finally started flying shows at the end of April, early May on the show circuit in The US. And and finally, we came to Quebec City on the ninth and tenth of June, I still remember the dates, June 2001, for a show in my hometown. And I was beyond excited to be able to fly there in my first year on the Snowbirds, to be able to fly in front of my friends, family, and the crowd that was there. The Blue Angels were also there with us.
Bryan:Oh, cool.
Maryse:So, those show sites where we are able to interact with another air demonstration team, it's very special because it's unique work that the Snowbirds do, and we don't have colleagues that we can interact with very often. But now, of course, on that show that weekend, we had the Blue Angels there with us, and we had great conversations with them. But, you know, unknowingly, that weekend, there was a little girl in the crowd, and she was 10 years old. She had just broken her femur. So she was there on crutches watching a show.
Maryse:And that day, she decided she wanted to join the military and be a military pilot. And you know what? So she joined the air cadets not long after. She came to Mooja as a student, and her name is Sarah Dallaire, and she became the second woman on the Snowbirds. And I had the great fortune of being here in Mooja and being there when she was selected as number two, my old number, and on the snowbirds.
Maryse:But you know what? It all started unknowingly, I inspired her to join the military. She saw me. She was there. She was sad.
Maryse:She had broken her femur. But she saw this, and it inspired her to join the military, and then and then she became a snowbird pilot. So it's just it's such a great story that, Sarah and I share, but it's the power of the snowbirds. Mhmm. And that's what the snowbirds are all about.
Bryan:Oh, that's that's so amazing. I can hear you getting emotional as you tell this story.
Maryse:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Bryan:What a special thing. And for that to come full circle is just so cool. And Sarah is an amazing person. I was fortunate enough to be in Apache flight, now Apollo flight in Moose Jaw
Maryse:Yes.
Bryan:With her in 2011, I believe it was, as a student. And she was just great energy, very likable. You could see that she was going places. So that's that's really, really cool that that was her.
Maryse:But and and she was inspired just like I was inspired too going to an air show.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Maryse:And and that's what the snowbirds are all about. It's sometimes hard to quantify inspiration, but especially at a time like this for Canada, I think it's a strategic advantage. Because this inspiration, especially with everything we see internationally and with the KN forces being shortened personnel, you need that group as ambassadors to Canada.
Bryan:What do you think Canadians most commonly misunderstand about the Snowbirds?
Maryse:That's a great question. What do they miss sometimes, and I've been asked that before, some people think that it's computerized. That that the snowbird show is that somehow on in the airplanes, we have computers or autopilot and that it's that it's done automatically.
Bryan:Really?
Maryse:No. It is not because the tutor doesn't have that kind of technology. No. It's the hands and feet of the pilot. So that's certainly something that I've heard before and I thought, uh-uh.
Maryse:Oh, no.
Bryan:That's funny.
Maryse:Yes. Yeah. That's a misconception for sure.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. Autopilot of that level until recently, there was very few aircraft in in the RCAF that have any kind of sophisticated autopilot. So certainly not not in the Tutor.
Maryse:I guess with drones, they kinda do that now with drones, but it's not the same speed, the same type of flying. But they do have the drones kind of information.
Bryan:Who who knows what the future may hold in in terms of the ability to do that kind of stuff? I think in the next ten to twenty years, with the advances in technology of both in aviation and AI and all these different things
Maryse:Yeah.
Bryan:I think it could look very, very different. But certainly, right now, there are no AI or autopilot driven air demonstration teams.
Maryse:And it's actually just to give you a little insight on the flying with the snowbirds. I mean, it's really the hands and feet, and everything is done visually. Mhmm. It's really looking at the plane right beside you, and staying in formation right beside throughout this entire show, thirty five, forty minute show.
Bryan:I'm sure it's the same well, not the same, but I'm sure it's similar as a student in Moose Jaw learning formation that there are sight pictures and references and, you know, line the tail up with this and that's how you know you're in the right position.
Maryse:Absolutely. Absolutely. The one major difference is that you have a little piece of the sky or a box that you have to stay in. So as an inner pilot, because I had another airplane flying outside of me, my margin of error was about a foot and a half by a foot and a half by a foot and a half. So it it so it is the same thing as you said.
Maryse:It's those references, but of course, to a different level.
Bryan:I just thought of this, but just to give people kind of a little insight into the level of training and preparation you folks have to do, like, not only do you have to learn the show, learn how to fly that tightly, you also have to, I would think, plan for and train for emergencies happening, midway through shows and in tight formations and stuff. What would you do if somebody, let's say, in the center of the formation had a control issue or an engine flame out or something like that? Like, what does the team do?
Maryse:And that's an excellent question, because when I came to the team, I was I had fifteen hundred hours on the airplane. I was an instructor, a two level standards officer. And even with all this experience on the airplane, I had another six months of training, flying twice a day every day, sometimes three times, because we would do a third mission during a day. To learn to really fly in this group of nine jets. And some of the basics of flying formation are different when you're in a ninth ship.
Maryse:Formation integrity is very important, and you just mentioned, what happens if the aeroplane that's right in the middle has an engine failure? And we all learn the basics of handling emergencies and you react first and then you do what you need to do. In this case, formation integrity is important. You cannot just depart this formation because it could completely fall apart. So, integrity, maintaining formation and then handling all the emergencies differently, depending on what the emergency is.
Maryse:Flying this dynamic the dynamic maneuvers 300 feet from the ground, flying formation inverted at 300 feet from the ground. So I'm sure you remember from your training if you have an engine failure, typically, you'll zoom out, you know, of the formation. Well, of course, if you're flying formation inverted, you're not gonna do that. How are you gonna do it if you have an airplane that's stacked up from you or below you? So all those things are really, really important.
Bryan:Mhmm. And those are all scenarios that you consider and run through. And you running daily emergencies in the squadron like you do in as a student in Moose Jaw?
Maryse:It's actually before each and every flight.
Bryan:Okay.
Maryse:There's an emergency. There's a ground abort that's brief. Because again, if you have nine airplanes taking off when I was on the team back in 2001, we still did the nine plane takeoff and landing. So nine there's a lot of metal going down the runway. And it's not a big Aurora that's going down the runway.
Maryse:It's nine individual airplanes. So so there's a ground abort, brief before every mission. There's also an airborne emergency brief before every mission.
Bryan:Okay. So that's kind of some of the behind the scenes of what's going on. We've talked about this a bit, but beyond entertainment, what is the mission of the Snowbirds?
Maryse:So the full mission of the Snowbirds is to demonstrate the skills, the professionalism, the teamwork of the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces. So that's the true mission of the squadron, to be there as a group of people that connect with Canadians, and that are able to display all those skills the work that the men and women are doing. So, that's the important thing, to be there, to meet with little kids, to meet and that's, I think, probably the biggest part of the work, is to to see those kids, to inspire them, to really, display what teamwork is all about, what trust is all about, and the professionalism that's part of, of the work that we do every day.
Bryan:So you've spoken about connecting with these kids. You talked about inspiring Sarah Delaire. Over the years, how many pilots have told you that the Snowbirds were the reason they got interested in aviation?
Maryse:It's it's hard to keep track. And there's countless stories of people being inspired by the snowbirds. Over the fifty five years of existence, the snowbirds have performed in front of a 150,000,000 spectators. That's only spectators at air shows. That's not people that just saw them on TV during Canada Day festivities in Ottawa.
Maryse:It's not people that saw them on social media. It's strictly like in person at Inner Show. So really difficult to keep track, but I certainly know, and we hear it especially now as it is in the news, and we have a lot of people that that are coming forward and telling those stories. Countless people have been inspired by the Snowbirds.
Bryan:Why is it do you think that Canadians connect so strongly with the Snowbirds? Like, they're an icon of Canada, I would say. And why do you think the team has remained so relevant for more than fifty years?
Maryse:I think the Snowbirds over the years are really a national institution. I mean, the red and white jets. You connect directly with them. One of the greatest honors of my life is to fly over Parmouth Hill on the July 1. To be able to be, to be there, to be Canadian ambassadors, to fly in The US as well, and to be recognized internationally, is certainly this disconnection.
Maryse:The snowbirds, we did it all the time, we went to hospitals, we went to schools, and to different functions to really connect with those Canadians and talk to them. Because they want to see the members of the KN Armed Forces, and snowbirds are fortunate to be able to do that.
Bryan:I'd like to talk a bit about what goes into building a snowbird. What makes a great snowbird pilot?
Maryse:My answer, to that the question of what makes a good, snowbird pilot, I think is is I will preface this by saying it depends the position. What your number is and what the position is within within the formation.
Bryan:That's fair. I guess there's a bunch of different skills.
Maryse:There is a bunch of different skills for the non, aviation enthusiasts. It might be a little bit more difficult to understand, but I would say the first quality is to be a team player. And to be trustworthy, and to be part of a team that can accomplish a mission and to be fully committed. That's on the personality side. On the flying side, it really depends on the position that you are in.
Maryse:I was an inner pilot, you need someone that's very stable because you have people flying on your wing. The solos, the outer pilots, they need to be a bit more aggressive to be able to stay in that formation. Know, as an example, if you're on outside of of a turn, you feel it and you know that you need bigger correction. So very different qualities when it comes to flying depending on your position.
Bryan:Do people get assigned to different positions based on their personality and skill sets?
Maryse:A 100%. Absolutely. Yes. It does come out. Really, the personality comes out in the in the position for sure.
Bryan:So would you say, like, solo pilots tend to you know, if you get a group of solo pilots altogether, like, they're gonna be similar kinds of people and that kind of thing?
Maryse:Absolutely. Yeah. It's been proven over the years. But yes. So yeah.
Maryse:Because and, you know, when you're on the outside of this formation, and when you do the solo maneuvers, need to be certainly a bit more aggressive Mhmm. In your corrections and the way you fly. For me, as an inner pilot, where I had number eight flying on my wing as when I was number two, You know, if I was over controlling or having a bad day flying, number eight suffers from that. Because they are flying and looking through me to look at the lead to take their cues for flying. So certainly, the best quality for an inner pilot for number two, three, and four is to be very stable.
Maryse:If you have to correct, it's small corrections to stay in in position. So very different.
Bryan:How long would you say it takes to truly build a snowbird pilot?
Maryse:I would say it takes six to nine months to become a true snowbird pilot. When I first joined, having flown the aeroplane considerably before being on the snowbirds, it was a six month process. Now it's slightly longer, because it's a bit more rare to have pilots with experience on the Tutor.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Maryse:A lot of the pilots that come to the Snowbirds now don't have that experience, so it takes a little bit longer. But between six months to a year to build a proficient and safe pilot for the snowbirds.
Bryan:What skills do you think are the hardest to teach a prospective snowbird?
Maryse:I think flying in formation and and understanding the role that you have within that formation is probably the most important factor. Of course, we all know the basics of formation flying as military pilots. All pilots that come to Snowbirds are seasoned and experienced pilots. But now it's to integrate all this experience into one group so that the entire formation is safe and they are able to fly the full mission. So, that's really the shift that needs to happen with the Snowbirds.
Maryse:The Snowbirds do not fly Yes, it is jet team, and the Tutor is a jet airplane. Well, doesn't fly, and you don't have the same rules and the same standard operating procedures as the F-eighteen's, let's say. While the F-eighteen's and the fighter force do some flying in formation, it's not the same thing. The snowbirds is very different. The way you rejoin after a split, The way everyone comes back in formation is very specific to the snowbirds.
Maryse:Mhmm. And you would think you have pilots one through nine that you would rejoin one, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. It's not. It depends on the position and the formation and where you are. And most rejoins, you'll have number one, then two, three will come in, and then you may have four, six, seven, and then five, eight, and nine will come at the end.
Maryse:So it's very different, And that's the training that you have to do. And that's some of the changes that need to happen for, as an example, reacting to emergencies. Mhmm.
Bryan:You talked a little bit there about the difference between, say, fighter pilot formation and the Snowbirds formation. I guess, like, the biggest difference there is that, you know, there's a massive difference between formation when you're supporting each other in combat versus air demonstration formation, which has obviously flown much tighter. You know, the purpose is not just to be close together to help each other out, it's to get within a few feet of each other to impress a crowd.
Maryse:Absolutely. And and to demonstrate and it is to get as close as you can to, yes, impress the crowd as as you mentioned, but it's also a way to fly because the further apart you are, it's actually more difficult to fly some of the maneuvers. Because then you're further away from the center of the formation, therefore you need the power if you're on the outside.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Maryse:And you need to slow down if you're on the inside, it's actually easier to fly closer. So it's a balance between being too far apart and too close.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. And and any air cadets listening will know exactly what you're talking about from all the wheeling they do and drill.
Maryse:That's exactly. Yes.
Bryan:When you're on the inside and you're almost marking time and you're on the outside and you're 12 years old, you know, trying to take a meter long pace to keep up with everybody else. So it's, it's essentially the same concept.
Maryse:And that's exactly it. And the maneuvers, depending if you're a pilot on the right side of the formation or on the left side of the formation, you fly it very differently. And that's why the training is done with your opposite pilot in the in the formation, and they're the ones that train you because they understand that position.
Bryan:So in episode one, we talked about how important trust is amongst the Snowbirds. How is trust built inside the team? I would think that obviously a lot of it would develop throughout the selection process, the training process. Does the Snowbirds do specific like trust building activities as a team?
Maryse:The Snowbirds absolutely do, although it is not labeled as that. I believe trust is built in the small everyday gestures that happen from one day to the other, and you build trust. It takes time to build trust. One example that the snowbirds of a small gesture that they do is after each and every mission, pilots and technicians shake hands. No matter what happens during a flight, you go and you face the other person, you shake hands, and then you continue.
Maryse:Trust is also built in the briefs and debriefs, in correcting your errors, analysing your errors, doing what you say you're gonna do, and showing up and being fully committed. So there are many small gestures, and it also happens after the work day, when you're just relaxing and talking. That's also part of building trust.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Maryse:It's it's about knowing who you are. And and we are doing it today. You and I have never met. But by talking, understanding what you've done in your career, what I've done in my career, you start building trusts. Mhmm.
Maryse:And and that's that's how you do it. So there's no magical formula to that, in my opinion.
Bryan:Okay. Yeah. And I agree with you, you know, as you talk and and you mentioned that a little bit in part one. It is about the little things. You know, I I asked about trust building activities.
Bryan:It's like mentorship or parenting or any of these things. You don't do it in a couple flashy big events a month. You're doing it all day every day slowly building it.
Maryse:That's it. It's it is absolutely that. It is showing up and being there every day. And we we quickly mentioned that in in part one as well. But once trust is broken, that's a really difficult situation to be in and one that's nearly impossible to retract.
Bryan:Mhmm. Mhmm. So we'll talk a little more about when you took command of the squadron. First of all, as a CO, how do you balance safety with delivering an exciting show?
Maryse:Safety is always there. First and foremost, for all of us military aviators and in aviation in general, we understand how safety needs to be the most important factor in what we do. And I would say even more with the snowbirds, as they are flying in front of a crowd, in front of fans, All these nine aeroplanes together in formation. So, it's really about balance. It's really understanding what part of the show is there for entertainment purposes.
Maryse:Which part of the show is there for safety and really balancing all that? And really understanding what the public wants to see as well. There's some manoeuvres that are extremely easy to fly, that are some of the most recognized and enjoyed maneuvers that the crowds really really like. As an example, and and you might know this fighting wing, is just basically following each other in formation three to 600 feet behind the each other, is something that the crowd really really enjoy. Yet for pilots, it's very simple.
Maryse:And the opposite is also true. Some of the most difficult maneuvers I talked about formation flying in in episode one. Formation flying inverted is extremely difficult and challenging, and think sometimes the crowd doesn't fully appreciate how difficult some of those maneuvers are.
Bryan:How tricky is this is like one of the most famous things that snowbirds do. How tricky is it to get that heart in the air and make it look just right?
Maryse:Sometimes the heart looks like a tomato. And I've and I've flown my share of tomatoes, sadly. But so it is not especially challenging. But sometimes depending on the weather, depending on the wind, depending on on where you are, it should be fairly simple and it's a matter of matching the altitude on the height. And every show, every practice is filmed.
Maryse:We have technicians that film the show, So then you can make sure that we look at the heart after every mission and and look at whether it was a a beautiful heart or a little bit of a tomato, and then we correct for the next show.
Bryan:We were just talking about balancing safety and an exciting show. As a CEO of a demonstration team, what keeps a Snowbirds CEO awake at night during show season?
Maryse:For the entire time, for the three years that I was commanding officer, I was really aware of the Swiss cheese.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Maryse:And I don't know how much you you know about the Swiss cheese, and maybe I can take thirty seconds to explain to your listeners the Swiss cheese theory, is that accidents happen. It's not only in aviation, but it's at home. It's in in any situation. Is that accidents happen when the different layers in the Swiss cheese and the holes all align so that you end up having an accident and the arrow that goes through it. As an example, you know, on the morning you're delayed at home for some reason, you end up going in your car, you're at a red light.
Maryse:Those are all factors that are such that you end up in this one place in time where you may be the victim of an accident or you might miss it by a second or two seconds, depending if you were delayed at home or at a red light. Same thing happens flying, of course. So, I knew that I had a big piece of the Swiss cheese as the commanding officer, And certainly, I had a chance to stop an accident from happening, or ensure that my decisions were really important. And all the decisions of every member of the squadron was important, you know. It could be on the maintenance side that they're able to prevent an accident.
Maryse:So certainly, this was always on my mind. And what kept me up at night, would say, is oftentimes the distractions. Because that's when a pilot is distracted, they're doing their walk around before going flying, something happens or distracted, someone talks to them, they start to walk around again but they miss, you know, something. Or they're flying and something distracts them, and therefore there's an accident. A technician changes a tyre, and they're distracted.
Maryse:So often times, that's what happens for those accidents, and that kept me up at night for sure, a portion of that, because especially at an air show, there's a lot of distractions. So, you want to ensure that everyone is focused, and especially right now at a time where there's so much talk about the snowbirds, my number one concern is to ensure that those nine pilots and the technicians and everyone on the road is fully focused on their mission.
Bryan:Mhmm. For sure. There is so much going on right now in the news and it reminds me of your last mission when you're flying in a combat zone that you have to treat it like every other mission. Yes. Be just as thorough, you know, don't think about don't think about going home, you know.
Bryan:For the snowbirds, you know, they can't think about, oh, this is the last season. We have to make it extra special or worry about that stuff. Like, they just have to treat it like another season and and do the job.
Maryse:That's it. Yeah. My team lead that in the second year, oftentimes when we were at a show site with, let's say, the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds or he would always say, we are not trying to impress anyone here.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Maryse:We're gonna do our show the way we need to do it, and we know how to do it, and be safe. There's no there's nothing new today. We continue what we what we know how to do it. Yeah.
Bryan:Mhmm. So let's shift over to talking about the Tutor itself and the changes that are coming. Recently, it was announced that the Tutor will be retired from the Snowbirds. But first of all, what made the Tutor such an effective demonstration aircraft for so long?
Maryse:You know, the Tutor is I'm very biased, of course. I have lots of hours on the airplane, and I love the airplane. And to me, it almost reminds me of a little MGB. You know, those little convertible cars? Very simple.
Bryan:It's my dad's favorite car.
Maryse:Oh, is it? When you go one day, I'll have one. But, you know, very simple, very agile, very maneuverable, has a range of speed that is such that with nine airplanes in formation, it's not just a quick pass in front of the crowd. It is, you know, that aerial ballet that that the snowbirds do that are able to wow the crowds and and be right there. I mean, it was also a fantastic trainer.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Maryse:I trained on the Tutor, and it's a Canadian airplane. So all of this together makes it a really excellent platform to display what Canadians can do. That's for sure.
Bryan:Mhmm. And now the Tutor is from about the nineteen sixties. Did anyone ever expect the tutor would still be flying this long in this role?
Maryse:The tutor is indeed 63 years old. Yeah. So we knew, I mean, we've known for a long time that the tutor wasn't gonna be around for many more decades. So, of course, we know that. And you know what?
Maryse:For me, from the announcement that was made a few weeks back, I'm tremendously happy that the government has decided to go ahead and replace the platform. It needs to be replaced. No question. That's for sure. After sixty three years, it is time.
Maryse:And fifty five, so sixty three total, 55 with the snowbirds. So that's important and that's welcome, absolutely. The pause is the concern for many of us. Mhmm. This indefinite pause of three, four, five, six years, that's certainly a concern.
Bryan:Definitely. And and we'll get to that.
Maryse:Mhmm.
Bryan:So this announcement comes out. What emotions come with seeing the Tutor era come to an end? I I know that you alumni must be very emotionally attached to this aircraft.
Maryse:We are. But again, at the same you know, as I just mentioned, we all knew. Like, it's inevitable that the tutor would be replaced. Mhmm. And that's absolutely okay.
Maryse:It it needs to be the snowbirds need to operate with a different airplane.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Maryse:We know that. And and that's that's all good. And and as I mentioned, it is a welcome news that there's a new platform coming. The tutor will always have a special place in our hearts. That's for sure.
Maryse:But they'll be I mean, the Snowbirds will continue on a different platform.
Bryan:And I think most people who are somewhat familiar with the Snowbirds, with the Tutor, with aviation, We all love the Tutor. It's iconic. As you say, it's Canadian, and it's just it is the symbol of the Snowbirds at this point. Mhmm. But it is older.
Bryan:They are running out of aircraft parts, all these different things. It has a very old ejection seat compared to modern aircraft. So there's a bunch of things that will carry less risk with a new aircraft.
Maryse:And, you know, the Snowbirds are not gonna be the first aerobatic team in the world to change airplane. Mhmm. The Blue Angels have done it. And at the end of the day, the Blue Angels are still called the Blue Angels. Their show, yes, is on a different platform, But they remain.
Maryse:The color scheme is there. And so the snowbirds will be the same. The snowbirds are gonna be on new platform. They're still gonna be red and white. They're still gonna be called the snowbirds.
Maryse:And they will continue this proud legacy that's been built over the last fifty five years and will continue to represent Canada extremely well. I know I know that for sure.
Bryan:Mhmm. We mentioned that we're transitioning from the Tutor to the new training aircraft, which is the Siskin. What do you think the public underestimates about transitioning a demonstration team to a new aircraft?
Maryse:I think that the transition, depending on how it's planned, can happen fairly seamlessly. You know, at the end of the day, the type of flying will remain the same. Yes, it's a new platform, perhaps the speeds are going to be somewhat different. Some of the maneuvers might be different. And so for the fans, the really the fans that know the Snowbirds really well, they might see a difference, of course, between the Tutor and the PC 21, or the Siskins two as we will call it in Canada.
Maryse:It's not a jet aeroplane, it's a turboprop. So, the sound will be different for sure. But the manoeuvring, the two aeroplanes are fairly close in terms of how they can manoeuvre and their speeds and the envelope at which they operate. So, think it will be a very seamless transition, I think, for fans. Now, the hard part is the real flying, the real getting this entire team to transition to the new airplane.
Bryan:Right. Because it's more complicated than just simply painting a new airplane and carrying on. Right?
Maryse:Absolutely. It's understanding how this new airplane performs, how it performs in formation, in a large formation as well, and ensuring that the pilots and the technicians can transition seamlessly.
Bryan:You mentioned that the Snowbirds are not the first team to transition to a new aircraft. What lessons can Canada learn from other demonstration teams around the world?
Maryse:I think the biggest lesson is that it can be done fairly well, safely, and and at fairly low cost as they are transitioning. I think we just saw two weeks ago an example of The United Kingdom's Royal Air Force team, the Red Arrows, that have announced that they are transitioning, they will transition to a new over the next few years. And because of this, they are actually reducing the size of their team. So, Redarrows are very similar to the Snowbirds, they also have nine aeroplanes. But for this season and on for the next few years, as they're transitioning, they are reducing the size of the formation in order to be able to start this transition.
Maryse:So what a great comparison to what Canada is gonna do. Canada is doing it differently for now, and that's really what the Snowbirds and Online Association is advocating for. We're advocating to not have a pause Mhmm. Because we think it could be very detrimental for Canada.
Bryan:Mhmm. And let's get into that topic now. So this is kind of what this whole set of interviews has been building towards is discussing the latest announcement that this season will be the not only the final season on the tutor, but that the Siskin is not here yet.
Maryse:Mhmm.
Bryan:And it was only recently selected as the replacement for the tutor. So we're talking about basically a pause of it's twenty twenty six. They're talking about perhaps 2030.
Maryse:Mhmm.
Bryan:So we're talking about perhaps a four year or longer pause, and we all are familiar with timelines and acquisitions and all those different things. You know, hopefully, it goes well. Sometimes we actually manage to do it on time or faster, but more often than not, we we run into unforeseen issues. So we're gonna get into what the alumni association's position is on the pause. But before that, I'd actually like you to play devil's advocate against yourself.
Maryse:Yeah.
Bryan:And tell me, what do you think is the strongest argument you've heard in favor of a pause?
Maryse:From the the press conference and from what I've heard, there are different factors into this decision. We know that the Canaan Armed Forces is short on personnel. There's there's certainly the international situation and the shortage of personnel in the military is certainly an issue. Mhmm. And that's something that they've said that they want to reallocate the pilots and the technicians that are currently on squad into the various operational unit.
Maryse:We understand the sustainability of the aeroplane. It is 63 years old, so yes, there are parts that are difficult to procure. There are parts, as you just mentioned, the ejection seat is not the latest generation of ejection seats. So there are some parts of the aeroplanes that are more difficult to maintain than they were a long time ago. That's for sure.
Maryse:So this is what I hear or I heard from from the government, some of the main reasons why there's there's a pause now between the current show that we see with the small grids to what will be in the future.
Bryan:Okay. Now I have to admit, when I heard this announcement, first of all, I as I said, I was very happy. I think that the snowbirds fly in a very, I'll say, a very high risk environment. And, obviously, the risk is managed and and there's many things that that go into that. But compared to flying straight and level somewhere by yourself, it's much higher risk.
Bryan:And I think they deserve the safest possible, most modern aircraft. I'm a hugely an advocate that they deserve a better ejection seat, especially. Yeah. And so when I heard this announcement and I started seeing a lot of political posts and things and we'll keep the politics out of it, but I thought, man, like, you know, everyone's acting so upset all of a sudden. I think this is a great thing.
Bryan:The pause is unfortunate, but, you know, it makes sense to me. What are we missing? What are people missing that are supporting the idea of a pause?
Maryse:I think what they're missing, certainly by advocating for a pause is twofold. The first one is now the pause you mentioned, it's indefinite. We don't know, four, five, six years perhaps. So, now we have a generation, we talked lots about inspiration earlier, and what the snowbirds do. So now at a time where Canada needs to be strong, internationally, and in Canada, we need proud Canadians, we need people that will fly the flag, the snowbirds are tremendous ambassadors for the country.
Maryse:So, to me, now it's a generation of young kids that will not grow up saying the snowbirds. So that's first and foremost why we're deeply concerned about this pause is that you will not see the Snowbirds of Reparment Hill now on
Bryan:the July 1.
Maryse:You will not see those red and white jets at different air shows across Canada or fly past. So that's that's the number one concern. The second one that I think very few people understand, and as a former pilot and commanding officer of the squadron, is really an important factor for me with this pause, is the loss of the operational expertise. We talked about how specific it is to fly with the snowbirds. Even as a fifteen hundred hour pilot, two instructor, I still had to train for another six months to be able to fly a show and to be safe.
Maryse:Fifty five years of flying with the snowbirds, where we've accumulated the lessons learned, where the standard practices for the snowbirds have been fine tuned over those fifty five years. We can't put this experience on a shelf.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Maryse:And then in five years from now, pick it up and and continue to fly. You know, you mentioned that flying it's dynamic flying at 300 feet from the ground, 300 and some knots, and in close formation. So losing this operational expertise is a is a big concern. Can we have a different transition and maintain some of that expertise? We see the red arrows are doing it.
Maryse:So perhaps Canada can do the same.
Bryan:So let's say the Snowbirds disappeared tomorrow Mhmm. And they don't come back until the early twenty thirties. What do you think would be the hardest thing to rebuild?
Maryse:To me, it's gonna be riskier and more costly to do it that way. One, we all know when you integrate a new platform or a new airplane in the inventory of the Royal Canadian Air Force, it's always risky. Because you're learning to operate this new airplane. You don't quite know the edge of the envelope. We always have a good idea from all the test flights, but to really fly it operationally, we've seen it when the CF 18 was introduced in Canada.
Maryse:There were a number of accidents right at the beginning. So now you're introducing a new platform in four, five, six years, will be one one portion, and then you don't have the operational experience of just flying that type of mission. So as an example, I think you flew Aurora. So what if we stop totally flying the Auroras now, and wait for its replacement in five years, and now you've lost all the corporate knowledge of hunting subs, doing those coastal patrol missions, doing all the work at low level over the, the Atlantic in middle of January.
Bryan:You know, it's very interesting that you give me that example because when the RAF got rid of their ASW platform, which was the Nimrod Yep. They sent their ASW people here because they were afraid of that very thing of losing that skill set.
Maryse:Yes.
Bryan:So they actually, under a program called Seedcorn, sent their ASW aviators, pilots, back end crew, all that stuff to Canada and I believe other countries to keep those skills alive. And actually now, still under Seed Corn, they're training Canadians, on the p eight.
Maryse:That's
Bryan:it. To get us ready for that, which we did an episode on just a little while ago. Yes. So, I mean, that's actually a very interesting point to make. And, you know, this is sort of just an idea that popped into my head, but I wonder if there are creative options out there.
Bryan:We'll talk about what you guys hope how this looks, but I wonder if they've even thought about, okay. Well, could we embed Canadian pilots to keep that skill alive on foreign teams if if that would be something other teams would consider? Obviously, there's a lot of questions and things to hash out there.
Maryse:But perhaps, I mean, the Australians fly the PC 21 for their aerobatic team, the roulette. So perhaps that's that's a great option that we need to look at. But certainly, you know, when you talk about in terms of pure flying, no one else does what the snowbirds do across the air force. So it is very unique set of skills that are required. So that's really as a former pilot and defending officer, that's my number one concern.
Bryan:Would you say if you had to sort of categorize what the primary concern that the Alumni Association has? Would it be about familiarity with aircraft? Would it be losing those people, the culture, the expertise, or is it just all of it?
Maryse:Two main points. It's the loss of inspiration and pride in our country. The snowbirds are a national institution. We are as recognizable as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and some of our really important I mean, there's the flag and all that, but the snowbirds are recognised internationally. So that's certainly the number one concern, especially at this time in our history.
Maryse:And then the the loss of operational expertise. Absolutely. So
Bryan:what outcome would the alumni association ideally like to see?
Maryse:Well, I think that we should really look at what The UK is doing in the RAF red arrows because I think they were showing us certainly an alternative, A reduction from nine to perhaps seven airplanes or six. Right away, you're reducing the number of training hours, number of pilots and personnel required. Reducing the length of the show. We talked about you know, the show is about thirty five minutes, thirty five, forty minutes from year to year. Why not reduce the length and the complexity of the show?
Maryse:But to be able to retain some of the basics of this large formation aerobatic flying. Using our Canadian aerospace industry as true partners, providing aircraft maintenance technicians to the snowbirds, Even pilots on the standard side, on the training side for the snowbirds is also an option. So, I think if you're looking at all these different options, you can easily have a reduced burden on the air force. You could, you know, have some of the pilots and technicians go to operational units, supplemented by the aerospace industry, and reduce the fatigue and the training hours on the aeroplane, but still maintain that inspiration for the young generation, still maintain the Snowbirds over Parmament Hill on the first of July, and still continue to have that strategic advantage with the inspiration.
Bryan:Yeah. And then you you maintain a core cadre of people who keep that corporate knowledge and those aerobatic demonstration skills alive.
Maryse:Absolutely. Because it's something we know will come back. The minister of national defense did mention, yes, the Snowbirds will come back. Yes, the Snowbirds will be based in Muzdah, and they'll be on the PC 21, the Siskins too. So then excellent.
Maryse:We need to keep those core competence.
Bryan:Yeah. And it's interesting. You're talking about a few different creative solutions. And as I said, we recently had Jamie Spicer Blanchet on the show, commander of the RCAF. And one of the things she mentioned is that moving forward, as we try to address the shortcomings we have in staffing levels and trying to bring a whole bunch of platforms online and all these different things, we're going to have to approach things differently.
Bryan:We're gonna have to think outside the box. We're going to have to reimagine how we train and all these different challenges. So it sounds quite similar to what you're saying, actually.
Maryse:And, you know, one important factor, typically when the decisions are made with the leadership, we have those capability advisory groups within the Royal Canadian Air Force where it's really subject matter experts in either maritime patrol or tactical aviation. And with those generals, they get to make the decisions. Did you know that there is not one general in the Air Force currently that has experience on the snowbirds? That was either part of the team or either a coordinator or a pilot or So, to me, that's an important factor. The fact that we don't have a senior leader in the Royal Canadian Air Force that has that pure experience and understands the impact of this loss of reparational expertise.
Maryse:And I've seen firsthand how you can inspire a generation. We need to keep that.
Bryan:If you were speaking directly with decision makers right now, and I am I don't know. Maybe you folks are talking to them through this process. What would you hope they would consider as this transition moves forward?
Maryse:I would hope that they consider the impact of this decision. I truly understand that the Air Force is going through unprecedented changes. The modernisation of several fleets over the next twenty years is welcome, but a tremendous amount of work over the next few years as the air force is renewing a lot of their fleet. But how do we get people to the recruiting center? How do we get people interested in the Canaan Armed Forces?
Maryse:How do we get people to support the military? My argument is that the Snowbirds do the brunt of that work, and that's why we need to keep them, especially, again, as I was saying, at this time in our history for our country.
Bryan:So we're getting close to wrapping up this interview. I'd like to go through a few final thoughts with you. First of all, you've had a long career. You've had a long association with the Snowbirds from childhood to now. What do the Snowbirds mean to you personally?
Maryse:I concluded, I think, the first part of the podcast when you asked me, you know, what my greatest accomplishment was and and what I feel proud, first and foremost, and I talked about being Canadian. And to me, the snowbirds are all about our country. And we really the snowbirds really show what Canadians can do from coast to coast to coast. You know, the snowbirds make it all the way to Nunavut on on their shows, and and to me, that's what the snowbirds mean. It's dreams, and that if you work hard, you're disciplined, and you believe in that dream, it can it can come true.
Maryse:And that's what I want the young generation to see. And that's why I want the snowbirds to continue flying so that young Canadians can be inspired.
Bryan:When Canadians look up and see nine red and white aircraft overhead, is that what you hope they're seeing?
Maryse:Yes. I hope they're seeing a portion of this plus the precision, the teamwork, the skills that go into, making this show a reality.
Bryan:When you think about the next generation of Snowbird pilots, what do you hope that they inherit?
Maryse:I hope they inherit a lot of the work that's been already done, and then to adapt that situation to the new reality of the new technology and where the world is currently. I see it in my young daughters that are in the air cadets in university, that they will have a solid foundation. Those new Snowbird pilots can have that solid foundation of what the Snowbirds have built here on the for fifty five years on the Tutor, and then build on that and create something even greater for our country. Awesome.
Bryan:Okay, Maryse. That is going to do it for this two part series. It has been such a pleasure to sit here and get to know you, hear about your thoughts on this really big current event. I really, really wanna thank you again for taking the time to share your career story with us, especially last minute as it was. I kind of explained it at the end of part one, but, this all came together over the course of probably four hours from flash to bang today, which is fantastic.
Bryan:I didn't know I could do interviews that quick. I should do it that way from now on. So I just wanna thank you so much for your story, for your perspective on the Snowbirds, and your thoughts on this important moment in the team's history. Thank you so much for being on the show today.
Maryse:Well, thank you for having me. Thanks for the flexibility and and for making it happen. I really appreciate it.
Bryan:Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Alright. That wraps up our two part chat with Maryse Carmichael, the first female jet demonstration team pilot in the world and the first female Snowbird pilot.
Bryan:As for next week, we have a quick programming note. We're experiencing a slight delay getting approvals for an upcoming episode on special operations aviation in Canada with lieutenant colonel Chris Bray. We're hopeful it will be ready for next week, but regardless, we'll have another great aviation story waiting for you right here on The Pilot Project Podcast. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?
Bryan:You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilotproject. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and Mission Aviation aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.
Bryan:Thanks for listening. Keep the blue sign up. See you. Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.