Build and Learn

This week we dig into "unlimited" PTO and taking take off from work.

Show Notes

- PTO & Taking Time Off
  - Self-care
  - Accrual caps
  - Burnout
- Unlimited time off - good or bad?
  - Trap of not taking enough, personal guilt, fear of letting team down
  - Brad Feld’s 1 week a quarter - completely off grid, no work (= 4 weeks a year)
- Why taking time off is good for your team / company
  - Marathon / not a sprint, you need to be able to take time off
  - Ensures you are not the blocker for things
  - Encourages better docs, better socializing of concepts and ownership of the code

- Tips for taking time off
  - Github Away Feature
  - Delete or disable Slack
  - Create a list of things that you are responsible for and who will help cover those things

- Other Time Off
  - Parental Leave
  - Sick Leave
  - Company-wide holidays: Refuel Week

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Creators & Guests

CJ Avilla
Developer Advocate @StripeDev. Veteran. 📽 Building with Ruby, Rails, JavaScript
Colin Loretz
I like to build software and communities. Building software at @orbitmodel 🪐 Coworking at @renocollective 🎙Sharing software learnings on @buildandlearn_

What is Build and Learn?

A podcast about software development and developing ourselves as software engineers. Hosted by CJ Avilla and Colin Loretz.

Colin: Welcome to build and learn.

My name is Colin.

CJ Avilla: and I'm CJ.

And today we're talking about PTO
taking time off and trying to relax.

I don't know, vacation a little
bit, so yeah, it'll be, this is,

this is an interesting topic because
I think especially in tech and

especially as software engineers,
We're we're bad at taking time off.

I don't know.

At least I am.

What about you?

Colin: Yeah, this is a double edged sword
one because you know, tech workers, you

hear that have these amazing benefits.

But I think it's like a self-fulfilling
prophecy where it's like, we're gonna give

you in some cases, unlimited PTO or more
PTO than most jobs have even, you know,

four, six weeks, something like that.

And yet people still don't take it.

So, you know, or if they do, they're
like still on slack and still checking

in cuz they feel like they're the
lifeblood of either a project or a team.

And we're gonna break down a little
bit about how to avoid that because I

think you should take some time off.

And I think you're taking some time
off, which is a good segue into this.

CJ Avilla: Yeah.

So today I'm technically off

Colin: Well, we don't get paid for this.


So this isn't work.

CJ Avilla: Yeah.

So it's a, it's a Thursday.

So I'm taking Thursday,
Friday off this week.

We're if you're listening in the
future right now, it is the middle

of July and our kids are having
their last few days of summer camp.

This week, and then they're
gonna be sort of at home until

school starts in late August.

So I'm taking today and tomorrow
and hanging out with Nicole.

So we're, we're kind of just like gonna
spend some time with like free daycare.

I So that's yeah, that's the
how I'm wrapping up this this week

and having a long weekend, but,

Colin: Nice.

Do you, do you usually do like
long weekends when you take time

off have, or do you like to take
like a week off all at once?

We have a lot of Europeans in our company
that take off like three weeks to a month.

It's, you know, in some cities.

August is when the city shuts down.

you're a local and it's just, you
know, cultural and you see the jokes

about how, like, you know, someone's
taking time off to go get a suntan.

And then in America they're taking time
off to go get a surgery or something like


And it's, it's a stark reality that
people are using that, you know, instead

of sick days and things like that.

But yeah.

What does that look like for you?

Do you prefer to like use 'em
for lots of long weekends?

Or do you end up taking like a
long week when you need to longer?

If, if necess.

CJ Avilla: So I think for most of my
career, I've done the long weekend.

. And also maybe we should like sort of Pret
preface or like prefix all of this entire

discussion with like, we are incredibly
privileged to have any paid time off.

like the fact that we work jobs, where
we get paid money to like, not go to

work for some set of time, as a benefit
of tech is like incredibly awesome.

But yeah.

So back back, back back to
the main question, right?

Like, yeah.

I take time.

Either in the form of a long weekend.

Recently I guess in June I took, I did
take a full week off, which was amazing.

And so yeah.

I don't know,

Colin: More of that, more of that CJ

CJ Avilla: yes, I know.

I know I've got at one week
coming in, in October, we're

gonna go to Dominican Republic.

Never been I'm super, super excited.

And I think I'm actually gonna take
a week plus like a couple of days,

Colin: Yeah, you're gonna need to, well,
I guess it's closer for you to fly to

now, but for me it was a gnarly flight.

We went literally a week
before the pandemic happened,

so you're gonna like it.

I think it's a fun

CJ Avilla: Yeah, it's we're
super excited to go.

We planned it months and months ago.

But what was, what I was
thinking of was like, okay.

One of the main reasons for PTO in general
is to like avoid burning out right into

like actually recharge and whatever.


I am kind of like questioning how long
is the minimum amount of time that

you need to be out of the office or
offline or unplugged or off the grid

in order to actually feel recharged
and to avoid burnout successfully.

And so I think a week is great,
but also it seems like burnout

is one of those things that
sort of just accumulates, right.

It kind of just builds up and has this
residual effect where, you know, for a

long time, There were years where I went
without taking any significant time off,

like maybe long weekend, but no, there
was no way that I took an entire week off.

Colin: Why was that?

CJ Avilla: yeah.

So I guess if we we could talk

Colin: gonna have a little
therapy session here.

CJ Avilla: Yeah, we're gonna have
a little bit of, we're gonna have

a little bit of a conversation
here about unlimited time off.


And so in my experience, the
companies that I have worked for that

had an unlimited time off policy,
I never took any time off ever.

So this

Colin: And the statistics
would back you up on


Like there's been a lot of reports
that prove that, and there's a lot

of debating about whether it's good
or bad to have unlimited time off.

There's a little bit of a
weird nuance here where.

I don't think it's being done in a
mischievous way, but there's this thing

in the United States where if you don't
accrue PTO like a normal, like you get a

certain number of hours per pay period,
then the company doesn't have to pay

you back for unused time when you leave.

A little, I don't think that companies
are like being that nefarious about this.

It's more of, they wanna just
not have to worry about it.

Like I still have to record when
I'm going to just so we have a

record of it, but it's more of like,
we have a minimum, not a maximum

And that might be a perk for a company
that they don't have to pay it off back.

I'm not sure, but the problem there is,
then you need to make sure you use it.

And so if you were going and not using
your PTO, like, I guess what were the

reasons why you didn't do it then if you
technically had it, the whole team had

it, but then no one was taking time off.

CJ Avilla: So it also like, it, it
wasn't, there were some people on

the team that did take time off, but
I was absolutely like, I felt, I, I

think I felt a lot of guilt around
like leaving the team kind of, you

know, shorthanded and short staffed.

I would feel guilty about
taking a significant chunk.

So I felt more comfortable
being like, oh yeah, we have

an unlimited time off policy.

Let me take three long weekends this year.

, you know, like that felt

Colin: generous, how
generous of you yourself?

CJ Avilla: Yeah.

And so there were several companies
that I worked for all startups too,

where it was kind of like everyone
was working way more than 40 hours.

Everyone was just kind of like working
super, super hard to try to make this

company a success and in order to do so,
we were all hustling and it felt, yeah,

it felt like you were leaving the team.

Letting the team down, if you took time
off, which was just it's, it's horrible.

And I don't recommend it.

Colin: Yeah.

CJ Avilla: yeah, I mean, if you

Colin: that's a cultural problem.

I think like startups need
a sense of urgency for sure.

But you need to be rest
like a rested racehorse.

Like you need to be able to go, but
then you need to rest, like you're not

running the racehorse into the ground.

And I know we can get into like, there's a
lot of privilege, like you mentioned here

of being able to race in the first place.


But if we keep the race metaphor up,
like it's a marathon, not a sprint.

And you need to be able to take time
off so that when you are on work,

you're not completely undone by small
inconvenience that you're stressed.

And so some small thing happens in
your life that then, or maybe lots

of big things happen in your life.

And it completely, you know, GLS you,
which I has happened to me when I've

been a freelancer, cuz time off in a
Lance world is like a whole nother.

Thing, because you get paid by the time
that you work and worse is a salaried

job where PTO is an amazing convenience,
because you're still paid to take

that time off and you don't have to
be doing the work during that time.

So like when some of your
teammates would take off, was there

anything that you guys had to do?

Like, were there repercussions
of like, did you feel it, that

they were taking time off?

And so then you didn't want to do that
to somebody else or was it in your head?

And, you know, the company was
fine when those people took.

CJ Avilla: I think part
of it was in my head.

A lot of it was in my head and.

One of the things that I think we'll get
into is that when you actually take time

off, it is a good forcing function to have
really great things that are in place

so that you can safely take time off.

So that your team can do all of the
things that you were doing without you.


I know there's like the,
the bus factor, right?

Like if you're the only who knows how
to do X, Y, or Z, like that's a bad

thing because maybe on your one day of
PTO that year you get hit by a bus and

then no one knows how to restart some
weird service or something, you know or

Colin: Even if you don't
get hit by a bus, right.

You might be completely off grid

and the server's down and no one
knows how to restart it by you.


That, that, that would be a problem.

And so I even say like, what happens
if this employee leaves, right?

It's more of it.

It's gonna shine a light on all the
things that whether culturally, or

even literally technically like better
docs, better socializing of concepts.

I am guilty of this too.

Like I would do the
long weekend thing and.

Just, you know, make sure that every, like
I might even stay up late the night before

I leave, which is like the worst thing.

And I will even say like, usually
I used to do PTO for trips.

I'm now all about the PTO where I
stay home and just take care of life.

CJ Avilla: Totally.


I think like my manager has been
really good at kind of mentoring and

advising in terms of taking time off
to, for a family, like for your family.

And so self-care is
super important, right?

You want to be firing on
all cylinders, but also.

Especially when you're in this startup,
like really scrappy mode, it can be

easy to let your relationships maybe
like, yeah, like your, with your

spouse or maybe your relationships
with your children kind of go

on the back burner a little bit.

And so taking pay time off where they
are, the focus can be really valuable

in terms of just like maintaining your
own sort of family life and parental

and marriage and all of those things.

So like there's definitely benefits to.

Yeah, like just taking time off.

Where you don't go somewhere fancy, like
you said, but like instead, just hanging

out at home and playing games with the
kids and, you know, going out on dates

with your spouse or whatever, like those
kinds of things can also be really, really

valuable and also recharging because
spending time with your loved ones is

definitely shown to like, increase your,
your gratitude, increase, your positivity

increase like your overall happiness.

And that is like a really important,
like part of being a whole person too.

Colin: Totally.


And we're going a little outta
order and kind of touching on

things as they come up here.

But I think we should definitely come
back to making sure that you're not

the blocker for things like things you
can do to make sure you take time off.

I think there's a way to celebrate people
taking time off instead of dreading it.

we have a slack channel where when
people either are come back or are

taking time off, it's almost like a, you
know, a celebration that they were gone.

And what did they do?

And it's like pictures of their trip or.

Pictures of their garden.

They worked on whatever it might be.

But I really liked this and I can't
remember what if it was a book

or a talk that he gave, but Brad
Feld, who's been in startup land

and investing for a long time.

He does this thing.

That's like essential for his mental
health and work life balance, which

is, he works super hard all the time.

And then he takes off a week,
a quarter, which in the grand

scheme of things is four weeks.

CJ Avilla: Mm.

Colin: And he goes completely off grid.

Only his assistant knows where he is only
that they can reach out to him if there's

like a true fire, no work and one week.

And you brought this up,
like is a week enough?

I think if you can go completely off
grid, you're literally, you know, can't

go into slack, can't go into GitHub.

Can't do all that stuff.

It feels good around the, for me,
the four, five day mark is when

you're like start to like relax.

And if you're not again, doing
like full combat travel in

Europe or something like that.

Where you actually can
relax you're at home.

It does take that many days.

So like, what does it look
like to take two weeks off?

I don't know, what's better here.

Is it better to take, you know, lots of
long weekends, if that fits your lifestyle

and you're doing lots of like camping
and backpacking trips or something,

it better to take four, one weeks?

Is it better to take two
two-weeks and like have more

longer lasting type of thing?

And again, if you have the ability
to have unlimited time off.

What is that, I guess, at what point
do, does it not feel unlimited anymore?

Like you're starting to use up a
culturally acceptable upper bound.

CJ Avilla: Yeah.

Those are all like, really
important habits too.

I think.

And the other, another thing that you
can do as a team and as a company is

making sure that leadership is visibly
out of office for like a similar

amount of time, at least, right.

If leadership is always on and
never takes time off, then like

that's setting the wrong message too.


Yeah, visibility celebration of it.

I'd be curious for us to do
this as a little experiment.

I'm happy to volunteer.

Colin: You know, I've never to my
knowledge taken two weeks off, so


CJ Avilla: was gonna ask what's

Colin: yeah.

CJ Avilla: taken off.

Colin: Yeah, like intentionally, right.

We haven't took it on the show,
but when I got COVID, that was

not intentional taking time off.

That was sick days.

Plus a work trip.

So it felt like a vacation, but
it ended up being a lot more.

Extended than I thought it was gonna be.

So like intentional PTO, probably
a week in a, in a weekend.


Like the weekend on
either end of that week.

I think doing it two weeks
would be pretty amazing.

So I guess that puts me in that mindset
of okay, if I'm gonna be gone for

two weeks, what can I do to set up
my team now that they don't feel bad?

We, we men or not feel bad, but
like they're set up for success.

They don't need to come ask me for
things or if they do, they're gonna re

like hold onto them until I get back.

CJ Avilla: Yeah.

Is it, is there, are there things that
you intentionally hand off or make

sure that other people are involved?

Before you leave for a week.

I mean, the other thing is like
a week is just a week, right?


Maybe if a server goes down or
whatever, like some servers, it doesn't

matter if they're down for a week.

And like when you get back, you can
just kick it and, you know, whatever

background jobs will catch back up.

But like, yeah.

Colin: Thankfully, I'm not worried.

I'm not, I don't have
to touch the servers.

Like I do deploys.

So it's like more.

This is a good lesson of, is there
something that's actively being worked on?

And I think maybe leading up to you
going on, on vacation, talking to your

manager, talking to your team and figuring
out if you're gonna be a blocker before

you leave and not doing this outside
of your working hours, but part of

your job before you leave during your
working day, not an additional amount

of work or labor is to like, just look
ahead, work with engineering manager.

If you have one.

To see how to pull things off your plate.

Maybe even a few days before
you leave can use those days to

socialize concepts or ownership of
the code, if it needs to happen.

I've taken to starting a list of things
that I'm like if this like, okay, I'm

the only one who knows how this works.

Why is that the case?

How do we fix that?

And also, do I need to be the one
who now needs to do that work?

Not before I leave, but like, Why is it?

Why do I have that thought that I'm
the only one who can do that work?

And I think this probably resonates
with a lot of developers you might be

the only one who knows how it works.

CJ Avilla: Yeah.


I think that also, so we're starting
to head into territory around just

good habits and best practices
for when you take time off.

So it sounds like as you're
heading into time off, making

sure that you have good docs.

Some really clear ownership of who's
going to take over while you're away.


What I guess, going back to the,
the idea of having a list of the

stuff that you're doing, one of the
cultural norms that I've seen work

really successfully is having a doc.

That is just a list of all the stuff
you're working on and who is going

to cover that while you're out.

So that's been kind of like a cool thing.

Are there other, yeah.

What are the other sort of best practices
you've seen or like tools and tips and

technology you can use to make sure that
you have a successful out of office.

Colin: Yeah.

I mean, I think the, if you're
not truly off grid, the thing

that is hard to Dodge is the slack
notifications and things like that.

So setting in away message is great,
going away, going in and turning

off all the notifications on all
your devices is, is necessary.

We teased this on a past episode
when I was going outta town, but

the GitHub away feature is amazing
because with slack, if you message me

it doesn't, I mean, it has a status,
but it doesn't say anything to you.

It's just like, You have to go hover
over my status to see that I'm out.

I gotta pick an emoji that I think
is gonna be either, you know, Palm

trees or something like an X or
something that makes it evocative.

So people know if you mention me in an
issue, a PR or commit any of these things,

GitHub will tell you that I am out.

CJ Avilla: mm-hmm

Colin: And it's act proactive.

They're like, you get to
set what the message is.

You can set a status down GitHub.

I don't know that many people do that,
but there's setting a status and then

there's this like full on I am away.

And I think it was maybe
designed for like open source

contributors and things like that.

CJ Avilla: I mean, it's funny that
we're talking about this again.

I am away and right now, like
since we started this call, I

have four new unreads in slack.

which I should not even have
opened right now, but like

Colin: Yeah.

So do you set your away

CJ Avilla: I set it.


It says out of office
and still I have four


Colin: do, but is,
I guess, cuz there's the

setting of and then
there's set away or active?


CJ Avilla: Yeah.

My dot shows active.

I would send that to a
way still doesn't help.

So now let's just say it's been
a week and you've been gone.

What is your process for when
you come back for triaging?

What is likely to be a million
messages in email, slack, whatever

internal tools that you have.

I always start with slack because

I assume that the real time
communication is gonna be something

that's someone needed more urgently.

Then I go to email and if you don't
already have this turned on, you can

go into the E like the Gmail labs
feature and enable keyboard shortcuts,

which I think is a killer feature.

So you can kind of just use.

you know, J K to move up and down
and then you can mark things.

I don't even remember.

I just like have the muscle memory right.

But the key there's keyboard shortcuts
to just like plow through your email

super quickly finding all the ones
that don't matter, deleting those

and then replying quickly to others.

But yeah, I think I took, when I
took a week in June, it took me at

least a week to catch back up from.

Email notifications, slack notifications,
GitHub notifications, et cetera.

Track 1: I'm curious about is whether
or not those were even important, right?

Cause I'm in a lot of slack channels.

And so they're all lit
up when I come back.

So now it's up to me to triage what
was important and that's, that's

where I think the GitHub away feature
thing would be kind of interesting.

Colin: And again, I'm free
idea for an app here, right?

CJ Avilla: Mm.

Colin: imagine if you had a
true away status in slack, every

message that's sent to you get.

maybe they even say like, Hey, CJ's out.

Do you want me to remind him
when he comes back or something?


I don't love this.

Like, was this important, let me
build context for all these things

that there's, there's a meme
out there about PTO, you pay for

taking time off when you come back.

I don't know if GitHub does like
a little, like here's everything

you missed since you were out
type thing, but that's for you.

How you can have that one for free too.

CJ Avilla: The one feature I would
call out in slack is that if I am,

if I'm supposed to be away, but I'm
actually online, whether that's in

slack, on my phone, or I'm just doing
other things on my computer, then.

I, if something is sort of
on fire, then I'll probably

respond to the slack message.

But if it's not urgent and it can be dealt
with, when I get back, then I'll right.

Click on the message and
say, remind me next week.

And then I'll get like a
slack bot reminder next week.

And then try to plow through all of those.

I think the other thing is it's
probably good hygiene to actually

just delete the slack app from
your phone while you're out.

And then you won't see that
badge counting up as your yeah.

My manager's like really adamant.

He's like delete slack and.

Then if something urgent
comes up, he'll just text me.

Which is I mean, that's like fine, right?

Like having an emergency way to go around.

Colin: Like your pager PagerDuty.


CJ Avilla: exactly.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

So I, I added the topic paternity
maternity leave that I think we can

just spend a, a short amount of time on.

The reason why I wanted to talk about this
was because when I was thinking about what

is the longest time I've taken off, it was
when my second son was born and that was,

I took one month off and that was paid.

But for my first child, I had just
started a job and I didn't have any.

Paid time off accrued.

And so I took seven days unpaid
leave for like, that was my

whole paternity leave for,

Colin: they assume they
didn't have paternity leave.

CJ Avilla: no.

Yeah, it was like, I don't, I
don't even remember if they had

paternity leave, but if they did,
it was just, it was atrocious.

So yeah, I think.

The bigger tech companies, you
will find pretty generous paternity

and maternity leave situation.

Sometimes you can split it up and
take part of it when the baby's first

born and then take another part of it
later when one of the partners goes

back to work or whatever like that is.


So that's, that's definitely something
like that feels like a benefit

that more people take advantage
of at bigger companies than at

startups, just in my experience.

Colin: Yeah.

And it's unfortunate that people
have to make that like calculus

of am I gonna go unpaid for a week
to even a week is not enough time.


When you're talking about adding to your
family and all the things that come up

with that, and you shouldn't have to
use traditional PTO for that either.

But we we li at least we live
in America and that's what it is.


Good call out.

You know, it is part of, I guess, of
all the things that you could take time

off, you have usually paid time off.

You might have paternity or
maternity leave, parental leave.


When I broke my ankle
in January I remember.

Feeling well, after I had sort of pain
meds and whatever I was, I was just laying

in bed, like doing literally nothing.

And I felt so like, yeah.

So useless and I was like,
I need to be useful somehow.

And I can be useful if I have my
computer and I'm just like doing stuff.

CJ Avilla: But then I had like one
call with my manager and he was

like, dude, you, there's no way that
you should be at work right now.


Colin: right?


Like how many pain drugs have you

CJ Avilla: Exactly.


Pain medication and whatever he is
like, no, just shut it down and like,

or like watch a movie or something.

And so, yeah.

It's gosh.


I think it's, it's so hard.

Colin: Yeah.

So in addition to sick leave we have this
thing and some others might, but right.

You've got holidays in
addition to those days


And then we.

At orbit, we had a summer and a winter,
what we call Refuel week, which was

a week off in the summer, a week off
between Christmas and new year's.

You know, that kind of lull
period of people aren't really

getting a lot done anyway.

So let's just give it off.

We've also experimented with something
called like Rocket Days, which was

more of we're still working, but
we're working on all the process

and stuff that you know, you should
incrementally improve every day, but

we don't always get to those things.

It's some tech debt pay downs, some
process development, some reflection,

and like retro it's like a retro week
or a process improvement type week.

And so refuel is like truly
refuel rest, you know, reenergized

come back, you know, strong.

Hard to do with support and

uptime and stuff like that.

So we tend to try to like, have some
sort of like you're off, but this

person's watching the queue this
day, this day, this day, so forth.

CJ Avilla: Yeah.

When I.

First joined this company, I was
in the support function and during

the sort of holiday shutdown where
many people were out of office, we

did that thing where it was kind
of just like on a volunteer basis.

Get coverage to make sure that
we could still have people online

to meet our SLAs for anyone who
might be writing into support or

chatting with us on IRC or discord.

And then when I transitioned from
support into developer advocacy,

I remember being like, oh, this
is like, no one has to be around

technically during this short period.

And so it's nice that everyone can
go and recharge at the same time.


Colin: Yeah.

If you're in that boat and you can
volunteer even a few hours to relieve

a support, you know, function, I
think that's helpful cuz unfortunately

if you're full-time support.

You, it feels like another day sometimes

like hopefully ticket volume's gonna
be lower, but it'll also just be great

to have a buddy during that time.

And ideally, you know, we've done things
where we, we explicitly post on our blog

and in communities that we have Refuel
week, there'll be a little bit of a

longer response time go, please enjoy
the time off as well, type of thing.

Like let's put it back on you.

Like, why why are you working this week?

CJ Avilla: I mean, like back to
your point earlier about like,

okay, you know, leading up to taking
time off, you shouldn't work extra.

I think this is another bad habit
that I've had that people might

also have where, you know, okay.


I know that I'm taking Thursday,
Friday off, so let me work three extra

hours on Monday and and Wednesday.

So that


Colin: toxic personality trait.

CJ Avilla: Exactly.

well, I mean, yeah, like it's, but
if someone, maybe it's possible in

that unlimited scenario that someone
just works like insane amounts.

They're doing 90 hour weeks for three
weeks a month, and then they do take

a week off and maybe that's okay.

But maybe it's not like, I don't know.

Colin: I think some companies even
go as far as you have to take this

much time off and we're gonna pay
for your vacation up to a certain

CJ Avilla: Oh, wow.

never heard of that.

That's that's super


Colin: think Zapier does this.

CJ Avilla: Oh, wow.

That's that is a great, that
is a great perk right there.

I like

Colin: Yeah.

Cuz when I think about it, you're
gonna go to the Dominican, right?

So you're like, okay, I'm taking time off.

I'm getting paid.

I'm basically using a good
amount of that money to go there.

CJ Avilla: Yes.

Colin: so you're probably not using all of
your salary for that time to go there, but

it depends on what you're getting paid and
it depends on how baller of a room you're

gonna get when you go to the Dominicans.


CJ Avilla: Yeah, sidebar.

Did you see the I'm gonna call it a
marketing stunt, cuz that's what it

is that topple is doing right now.

Track 1: Yes.

CJ Avilla: So you like nominate
an open source developer.

It might be closed.

I don't know when it ends,

So yeah., or app, whatever
is it, is it tuple?

They're doing this marketing stunt
where you can nominate your favorite

open source dev and whoever wins.

They're paying for like
an all inclusive vacation.

Colin: So this is that idea that,
you know, open source is hard.

There is no unlimited paid
time off in open source.

CJ Avilla: mm.

Colin: We're not talking any vacation.

We're talking serious vacations.

Here are actual pictures
from actual destinations.

We'll book, the hotel
we'll buy the flights.

We'll give them a prepaid card for meals,
adventures, and daquiris by the pool.

They will get up to $10,000
to spend on their vacation.

Plus ones are welcome or you can
spend the whole thing on yourself.

So, yeah.

And they dive into why, I think
we'll put this in the show, cuz

they're talking about all the
things that we just did right on.

How do you give these open
source contributors, a break?

How do you reward them for
their service in a way, right?

Or honor them for that service because
you probably rely on their gems,

their libraries, their tools, and.

You can go and vote.

There's 437 people that
have been nominated.

And so you can go vote on 'em,
maybe even nominate somebody or

yourself, if you aren't on the list,

CJ Avilla: yep.

Go for it is.

So it's still open.

When does

Colin: like it.

CJ Avilla: close?

Colin: That's a good question.

CJ Avilla: It might be closed
by the time this episode

Colin: It might, but

if not keep an eye out on
this, I think it'll be fun to

mostly see the end of this,


I think that is probably all the different
avenues of this that we could beat.

I'd love to hear, like, if you have
a really good tactic at like how to

turn off and how to take good PTO,
whether it's at home or a vacation,

definitely send us your tips.

We're Recovering workaholics ourselves.

And this topic came up because we
know we're not always good at it,

and we want to get better at it.

I want my team to feel
like they can do it.

I want them to take time off without
worrying about putting me an lurch.

All right.

Where can people find notes for the show?

CJ Avilla: You can find the
show notes at

Colin: Awesome.

And you can find us online.

I am at @colinloretz on twitter

CJ Avilla: I'm at @cjav_dev

on Twitter.

Track 1: we will see you in two weeks.

Thanks everybody.

Bye friends.