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Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
I wish I wouldn't have tried to fix so much. Mhmm. As we got older, as we got a little wiser in our parenting, we did let them feel some disappointment. Because if they can't solve a disappointment or bring that disappointment to Christ, how how are they gonna do it when they leave our home?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's not like they are not gonna happen when they're alone.
Paul Karos:We don't ignore them in their disappointment, but if we can just come alongside them, and we would... We wish we would have done that
Michelle Moujaes:earlier. Earlier.
Paul Karos:Instead of fix everything because we felt their pain, and we didn't want them to feel pain. And the truth is is that suffering brings endurance, and endurance brings character, and character brings hope, Saint Paul says.
Michelle Moujaes:Today is a big day, and not just because Paul and Cindy Karos are back with us, but because today is the day their brand new book, Raising Orthodox Christians, focusing on what matters most when everything's competing for your children officially opens for preorder. Now if you've listened to this podcast for any length of time, you already know that Paul and Cindy are not just guests to me. They are mentors, like real ones, to both myself and to my husband, Moujaes. So when I tell you that this book did not come from a stack of parenting theories, It actually came from their own searching, from their own mistakes or years of conversations with each other and with other Orthodox families, and also from a deep study of scripture and the fathers and the saints. And I mean it.
Michelle Moujaes:Years ago, Paul and Cindy started asking one question that eventually became the heart of this whole book, which is what do we need to do now while our children are young to help them love Christ and his church when they're grown? That question is the reason that we're all here today. Now I wanna level with you. Okay? I'm gonna tell you something.
Michelle Moujaes:This book covers a lot of ground, way more than we'll get to in just one episode. So instead of trying to just summarize the whole thing, which you would feel like we were, you know, handing you a book report, we're just gonna go deep on a few of the biggest ideas that are inside this book. And my hope is that when you walk away, you won't be overwhelmed with, you know, too much information, but rather that you'd have two or three things that can actually carry you into your world this week. And here's the other thing I want you to know before we start. This is not a book that hands you a script for perfect parenting.
Michelle Moujaes:You do not need to get it all right. If Walid and I learned anything from Paul and Cindy, it was that. There are no perfect parents. You just need to know where you're going and keep turning back toward Christ and just begin exactly where you are. So here we go.
Michelle Moujaes:And as always, welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring the church's timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Magiaes, and I'm so glad that you're here. Paul and Cindy Karos are two of the most beloved voices that we've ever had on this show. They live in Minneapolis, Minnesota. They have spent decades as leaders in Orthodox family ministry, and they've raised three children, now all adults, who remain deeply engaged in the life of the church.
Michelle Moujaes:My husband and I count them as personal mentors, dear friends, And because Cindy and I work together at Faith Tree Resources, I get to talk to both of them pretty much multiple times every day. And I will tell you, I have learned more from my conversations with them than I could ever put into just one bio. Today, they are back to talk about their new book, Raising Orthodox Christians, which opens for preorder today. And we're gonna hold it up and dig into a few of its biggest ideas, and we are not gonna try and cover all of it because some things just deserve more than one episode. Paul and Cindy, welcome back.
Cindy Karos:Thanks, Michelle. It's great to here. To be here.
Paul Karos:It's great
Michelle Moujaes:to be here. I wanna just start us off. I have the privilege of knowing you all, but I want you to tell our audience a little bit maybe about who you are, but also maybe more importantly is how you began this journey. Because I know that when your children were young, you started asking the question, kind of what do we need to do right now so that our children love Christ and his church when they're grown. Is that fair?
Paul Karos:Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes. And that kind of started you on the journey of figuring out, like, what it looked like to raise Orthodox Christians. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about that.
Paul Karos:You know, the first thing is that we we realize how important the Lord was and the church was in our life. And, you know, for all human beings, you know, not just for us, but so, therefore, we wanted to make sure our kids, when they get older and they're gonna have their challenges and their suffering and their difficulties to navigate the world and be a light in the world Mhmm. We really wanted to do everything we could to introduce him to Christ in his church so that out of their freedom, when they get older, that that that they would consider pursuing it themselves for their own hearts and their own lives.
Cindy Karos:Well, and to be honest, we just wanted somebody to tell us, do these 10 things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Your kids will stay in the church.
Cindy Karos:And we began to realize that that wasn't the case. And so we set out to ask people what they did. You know? Were those whose
Michelle Moujaes:kids were in the church.
Cindy Karos:Yes. And what we found is we were already doing some of those things, coming to liturgy regularly, doing all the church activities, youth group, camps. But we did find a few things that were unexpected. One was that many of them were spending social time together with other Orthodox families. And while we had surrounded ourselves with really wonderful Christian families, We really hadn't been doing that.
Cindy Karos:We were just doing that on the weekends, you know, at church or whatever. Mhmm. And we came to really realize why that mattered, and that's some of what we put in the book.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Another piece that you put in the book that I love so much is you say every family is climbing towards something.
Paul Karos:Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:And you really did this evaluation to say, are we climbing towards summit that the church invites us into? So just give me a high level, like, what is the summit, and how do we know what we're climbing to? Just speak to that for a second, Paul.
Paul Karos:You know, Saint Simeon, the new theologian who who was born in nine forty nine AD, he he used this analogy, and he he talked about the summit being the kingdom of heaven. Theosis, as we call it in Greek, union with God, to be transformed by Christ, to become Christ like. That's the summit. And, course, we don't get there in this life. But then he talks about this path to holiness.
Paul Karos:And so that climb becomes the analogy of growing in Christ, sanctification, following God's commandments, and all these things. So as a family, we started to realize, well, where are we climbing? You know, that's the first question we do have to ask ourselves as families because all of us as families, we are climbing somewhere. Whether we know it or not. Right?
Paul Karos:We are pursuing something, and we're we're climbing somewhere. Right?
Cindy Karos:Yes. Yes. Well, we we live in a very goal oriented world. Mhmm. But yet we aren't spending much time talking about the goal of where we wanna go with our children.
Cindy Karos:In the meanwhile, we're we're focusing on whether or not the permission slips are signed or if, you know, one of our kids has outgrown their shoes. Yeah. You know? I mean, there are so many things in a parent's life. But what we realized was if you have an idea where you're going, all those daily decisions can kind of tie into that.
Michelle Moujaes:I like that.
Paul Karos:Yeah. It gives you a framework. It really gives you a framework. And so many times, like we saw in our own life, we were we were every day, if you will, climbing. We were climbing somewhere, but we really didn't know where we were climbing.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. Right.
Paul Karos:Right. And we had to wake up and kinda say, okay. Let's step back here. And what's our goal? Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. So I'm just gonna say it back to you. Yeah. So you're basically saying that the church offers us the invitation to climb, to quote Saint Simeon Yeah. Toward Christ, to be like him, and to think like him, and act in love and, you know, forgive like him.
Michelle Moujaes:And the more that we do that, that's theosis where we're becoming more like him. K? So is that right so far?
Paul Karos:Yep. Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. And then as parents, if we know that's the goal, every other decision kind of aligns with that or it doesn't.
Paul Karos:That's right.
Cindy Karos:Okay.
Paul Karos:It's a framework to be able to navigate the modern culture in a way that, you know, allows you to stay on that path up to that summit and yet be in this world and a light to this world, but not of this world.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Yeah. One one of the things you talk about in the book that I love so much is the summit. Sometimes good things can become the summit. Things that are important, whether it's school or work or sports or things that are really beautiful and kind of the reason this book kinda came into your world, tell me if I'm right, well, not necessarily the book, but the concepts of...
Michelle Moujaes:Around it for parents was this idea that we wanna keep those things in the... In their place. But we wanna just find a way to keep our family only towards the one summit, which is Christ likeness. Is that right?
Cindy Karos:Yes. And and we should make it pretty clear. The arena of living our life, heading on that path includes all those good things. Okay. Like sports, like school, like all music, whatever those activities are, those are on our path to the summit.
Cindy Karos:It's how we focus on them and whether or not we allow those things become their own summit.
Michelle Moujaes:To become the thing. Yeah. To become the thing. Right. I like that.
Paul Karos:And if we just do what the culture says today, there's a pretty good chance we might make that a separate summit with a different path to a different direction. And that that... Because the world is so intense on a lot of these things. So we look as Orthodox Christians at, you know, what's good, noble, and lovely in Christ's eyes about these activities. Because there's a lot of great virtues that our kids can and will learn by being involved in all these elements as Cindy says, the arena of family life.
Paul Karos:And we wanna keep it to to those things and become aware when we're being tempted to make some activity or element of our life its own summit on a different path to a different direction.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Well, the
Cindy Karos:reason we thought this was so important is that we struggle ourselves. We know how hard it is to keep our eye on Christ when the world is pulling us in so many different directions, and particularly our kids. Mhmm. So we spent a lot of time in our lives, whether it's through family camps or Paul's one on one ministry, with parents, really watching our beautiful young friends struggle with this too. And so what we wanted to do was to encourage them Mhmm.
Cindy Karos:And give them some inspiration to know that this climb is so worth it, but we just need to keep focused on it.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it.
Paul Karos:In fact, what we started to do, Michelle, is we actually, wrote, as you know, we wrote a four part workshop.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Paul Karos:And we got 10, couples together, and we did in different churches, then we did at different parish retreats. And the feedback was very, very positive. And that's why we brought this whole kind of workshop thing to you at Faith Tree to ask you to take it, do your faith tree policy, and make it a really good small group workshop that could be spread out. And I know you had a... You came up with a different research, and that's why we ultimately wrote the book.
Michelle Moujaes:Wrote the book. So the way that it the way that it started was you all ran the course. You did it, in different places in your arena. And then we said, okay. Well, let's do it.
Michelle Moujaes:I mean, I know that the parents that I'm in the midst of it with or parents in generations right behind us are desperate for someone to just tell us what to do so that our kids will stay in the church forever. So we ran the course here in Los Angeles as well. And then we said, okay. There's definitely something to the... These ideas.
Michelle Moujaes:And we hired a researcher who went across the country and parents told us, we want a podcast, we want a book, we wanna learn in the margins, and then we wanna be together. So ultimately, that's what I get really excited about because we have the podcast, we have the book, and now we also have opportunities, to help parents launch kind of parenting groups, Orthodox Christian Parenting groups and community groups in the church, which is so exciting to me.
Paul Karos:The part the part that really was nice in... When you talked to us about writing the book is, it really forced you, Cindy and I, the two of us, to kinda go deeper. And because you're writing a book, it's gotta be deeper than a, you know, hour and a half workshop. Right?
Cindy Karos:Mhmm.
Paul Karos:Or, you know, it was a four part workshop. So it was four different months, you know, two hours a night for four different months. But this really allowed us to get much deeper with examples and kinda make it come alive.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Let me ask you. So one of the things that we talked about in the course and in the book for sure is kind of the benefit. I mean, why do we want our kids to stay engaged in the church forever? Like, what is it that's so important for them that we would be willing to do this work and start now?
Michelle Moujaes:What's the payoff, Paul?
Paul Karos:Yeah. The payoff is that we'll never be at peace in our life unless we're pursuing Christ. And even then, it's an ongoing marathon lifelong struggle. Mhmm. But the only piece that goes beyond understanding is Christ himself, his transformation, his heart, his his changing our hearts over time, and that allows our children to become who they're meant to be in Christ.
Paul Karos:And so the payoff is that we can then watch our kids be on their own journey, their own climb with their future families, God willing, and bear fruit to the people around them in their homes, at their workplaces, with their friendships, in their schools. And and this is this is the payoff That then all of us in some way bear fruit to the world and be a light to this world. I think that's the ultimate.
Michelle Moujaes:I'm gonna... Oh, go ahead, Cindy.
Cindy Karos:Our goal is really to be like Christ. The virtues that he that he holds, that he shows all of us. And we... If we focus on that, we can really develop those, like, patience and kindness and and love. So it's important that we have a little focus or we aren't gonna be able to do that as well.
Cindy Karos:Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:K. I'm gonna say it back. Yep. You both know I'm not the sharpest tack in the box, so I'm gonna try again. So we're saying that there is freedom if we live a life in Christ, in the church, connected to him.
Michelle Moujaes:There is exhale. There is maybe joy, or there is just that peace that that that everybody's searching for and hustling for in, you know, this culture that we live in. But the only place you're really gonna find it, where really you can have the the, I don't know, joy or the hope that can only be found in that is if we live a life in Christ in the church. That's what that all means.
Paul Karos:And we know that because we're beginning to experience in our own lives as as adults. Our kids don't yet know that, and our job is to inspire them to experience that in everyday living, everyday part of family life, whatever whatever it might be. Because using that climb analogy, the world's got, I mean, constant distractions. We're gonna look left. We're gonna look right.
Paul Karos:We're gonna... It's gonna pull us and and promise that these other paths are more pleasurable. You know? It's gonna be more enjoyable. You're gonna have, I don't know, you'll belong more.
Paul Karos:There's all kinds of different lies the world will give where if we stay on the path toward Christ and struggle to stand, and when we fall, turn around and come back, that's a life of repentance, which is Orthodoxy, that in that, the Lord will change us. He'll sanctify us. Mhmm. And we will grow in whatever way he wants to grow us, and then we'll bear fruit and be a light.
Cindy Karos:Okay. Go. I was just gonna say, and what people don't realize is that the Orthodox Church gives a parent everything they need to raise their kids to follow Christ. I mean, it's it's really a beautiful thing. And, you know, the work we've done, the asking questions, the deep dive in the church fathers, mean, I it's amazing the gifts that the church has given us.
Michelle Moujaes:So if we establish that this is beneficial, that we, of course, want this for our children, like we're sitting on a treasure chest and we wanna hand it to our children, then the next obvious, I guess, point is, which I learned in this book, is you gotta start because it's not optimal. Well, of course, we can always... You know, that's what's so beautiful about faith. People can come even in the eleventh hour. Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:But it is best for our children if we start that early and now. Just kinda like the way I think about it when I read this is like, okay. If you want optimal optimal health when you're 80, you probably don't wanna start taking care of what you eat and how you move or exercise when you're 79. Like, much better to start earlier so that you can really enjoy what's possible. Is that a fair analogy?
Paul Karos:Yeah. Yeah. It's analogy. And the fathers, you know, use physical human body analogies with spiritual soul because we're so integrated body. So so absolutely, it's a great analogy.
Michelle Moujaes:So you're saying that if we wanna give our kids the freedom that's found in this summit, like, let's start early.
Paul Karos:Let's start early. And if we haven't, it's okay. Just turn around and start wherever we are on getting back on this path. Talk with your priest, strategize as a couple or with a loved one if you're a single parent, and just get started. You know, a great story I heard on Monothos in this analogy of the climb, it was that actually this analogy was there were two people, and we we tell the story in the book actually.
Paul Karos:There were two people on this climb. One made much progress, you know, had become very holy. I don't know. Maybe they're like, say, Paisios way toward the top of the summit, although you don't ever get to the summit in this life. Another person was toward the bottom and kept falling off the path, but would say, oh, Lord, forgive me and come back and try again.
Paul Karos:Okay? And then they fall off, forgive me, Lord, and come back and try again. And both people died at the same time. Mhmm. And the story is, will they both not be taken instantly to the summit to be with the Lord?
Paul Karos:The one that, you know, struggled mightily and made much progress and the one who struggled mightily and made very little progress. Yes. They will. Because, you know, it's not about how far we grow, but are we in the battle? That doesn't matter.
Paul Karos:That does... Are we trying?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I love that.
Cindy Karos:I love that. We just took our kids to the Boundary Waters, which is a very, very remote part of Minnesota, kinda touches the Canadian border. And there are no cell towers. I mean, you go there with canoes, a pack, and a compass. Oh, wow.
Cindy Karos:And you are on your own. It's awesome, actually. And, you know, if you're gonna do something like this or for us to do something like this, you you have to consult with a guide. And the guide, the outfitter, whatever, he tells you what you need. You need a pack to throw up into the trees so that the bears don't get your food.
Cindy Karos:You need a hatchet in case you have to cut down some wood or something like that. There are a variety of things. So when I think about it, we could take his advice, or we could do our own thing. Right? Mhmm.
Cindy Karos:Well, who wouldn't wanna take the advice? The same with what the church gives us. The church... Our our church gives us beautiful tools. Now some people think of them as rules, but they couldn't be wrong...
Cindy Karos:More wrong. You know? They're tools. Confession, communion, prayer, fasting. That's a good thing.
Cindy Karos:All of those things are tools to help us get to that summit. Now we have a choice. We can either try and use them, or we could just do it on our own. And I guess part of this book was, hey, everyone. Mhmm.
Cindy Karos:Take a look at these tools. They're beautiful. And they help us when we get off the path because let me tell you, every day, we're off the path. Mhmm. Yeah.
Cindy Karos:And we just need to get back on.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. I love that. Okay. So if if a parent, just to close that thought out that we started with, hears this or gets the book and thinks, oh, I'm way behind. What would be the next right step for them to do?
Paul Karos:Well, you know, one of the things we say in the book is to find out where are you climbing. K. That... That's the first step. But we have a little exercise in there, some reflection to be able to say, okay, as a family, where are we climbing?
Paul Karos:Let's just be honest. No shame. Just where are we climbing? Yeah. We did that and we were climbing some, you know, not great places.
Michelle Moujaes:And then Your family did that? Like, you inventoried, like, what's our priority?
Cindy Karos:We didn't have the book, but we asked ourselves the questions. Yeah. You know, and kind of woke up and realized we could be doing this differently.
Paul Karos:We're too anxious about, you know, what sports teams we're gonna make. And we're too anxious about, you know, are they gonna get to the right group of friends at school or... And those things are all good things, but they became consuming for us.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. Right.
Paul Karos:Right. That's a different climb.
Michelle Moujaes:What school will they get into? Will they write a
Cindy Karos:job? Exactly. Right.
Paul Karos:Yeah. So I would just say for that family, first of all, do not panic. K. And if you do have any hard feelings about it like a wake up, you know, just go have confession and and get clean as white as white as snow. Yeah.
Paul Karos:Okay. And just start. Yeah. One step. Take it slowly slowly.
Paul Karos:This is a life long marathon.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Karos:Okay? It's a it's a lifelong
Cindy Karos:race. One step.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. One of the things you guys always tell Moulet and I is like, that's okay. That's alright. You're probably doing better than you think. That is...
Michelle Moujaes:That's one of my favorite things like, don't beat yourself up. Just take stock, figure out where you are, and then you adjust. Pivot.
Paul Karos:We're just meeting one family and they're feeling so overwhelmed, so busy. And sometimes you make commitments. Right? You're in all these extracurricular activities. You got dance, you got sports, you got music, all these things, and they're just way overwhelmed.
Paul Karos:And, you know, once you realize you're over over committed, let's say, you kinda panic. Just take your time. Mhmm. Fix it for next year. I mean, you can't, like, just back out of everything with you got all these commitments, but doesn't mean you have to stay that way long term.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Paul Karos:So this is the slowly slowly part, but yet become aware and we can tweak and
Cindy Karos:change it. Adjust.
Paul Karos:Adjust. Adjust. Adjust.
Michelle Moujaes:I like it. Okay. So the subtitle of this book, which is focusing on what matters most when everything's competing for your children. Tell us a little bit about that. What do you mean everything's competing for your children?
Cindy Karos:Everything is good for our kids. We need to have them in this group or in that. I mean, if if we just did everything that the world told us, there would be no room for Christ Yeah. 100%. His church.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. So all of those things are good, but we were kinda talking about it. I mean, the same things are competing for our children when we were raising our kids as they are today. I mean, getting into the right this or being on the right team or making sure that you have the right, you know, clothes
Michelle Moujaes:or Yeah.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. All the things that the world is trying to tell us. And so it it was a hard struggle for us, and we just wanna inspire young families. But we would say
Paul Karos:Yeah. I was gonna say that we would say the two different ones we we are thinking that are new compared to twenty five years ago are technology use Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:Difference. Huge. Huge.
Paul Karos:Social media intensity is so... We we did not have that when our kids were very young, and that's a big deal. It happens. And, you know, Michelle, Faithrie, you guys have done great work on that digital tsunami. That is excellent work.
Paul Karos:I would highly recommend parents Thank you. Reading that. It's a... It... It's becoming aware of the society now.
Paul Karos:It is coming aware, so this is a good thing. The society is is saying we got a problem.
Michelle Moujaes:Hold on, everyone. Right. 911.
Cindy Karos:Well... And that digital tsunami is a great thing. If you've just started... Your children are just starting to look at technology, read it first because there are some really good tips and advice. That's actually one of
Michelle Moujaes:the things I like that you guys give is this freedom of, you don't have to do it the way everyone else does it. You don't
Paul Karos:have to
Cindy Karos:do it the
Michelle Moujaes:way the world does it. Like, okay. Like, let's think it through. And in the book, you give a lot of different, there's a concept called the middle way, which is, you know, I... Let's be honest, tend to be an extremist.
Michelle Moujaes:So I'm like, my kids are never getting tech, which they really didn't till they went to college. I mean, if we're fair.
Cindy Karos:It's amazing.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Well, it's a little extreme. I get it. So... But then you have other people who are like, have at it.
Michelle Moujaes:Do your thing. And what you guys have taught in the book and to us personally and to so many parents in your family ministries is you've kind of taught this idea that there is a way to take anything that is on the path towards Christ likeness and use it for God's glory. Yeah. You know? It's just the middle way.
Michelle Moujaes:It can't be all in on either side quite so extreme.
Paul Karos:Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Right? So talk to me about that a little bit.
Paul Karos:Yeah. So that middle way is another analogy of the fathers. That virtue is the middle way between two extremes, what what we call in the book overzealous Mhmm. Or apathetic. Okay.
Paul Karos:So schoolwork. Alright. So you could say overzealous would be, if my kid doesn't get a's, they're a failure, we're a failure, his future is doomed, her future is doomed. Okay. And it's all about straight a's.
Paul Karos:Okay? Of course, getting a's is very good if you've done the work and you're blessed that way. That's beautiful. Apathetic would be, who cares about school? I mean, I'm not gonna help my kids study out.
Paul Karos:You know, they can figure it out. And, you know, whatever it is, it is, and it doesn't matter at all. The middle way is, hey. We're gonna teach excellence of excellence of work, preparing, self discipline of study. Right?
Paul Karos:Preparing for a test, for example. Being kind to schoolmates, listening to your teachers. These are all beautiful, godly virtues, and that's the middle way. So what we did in the book is really, I think parents will find really, really fun and challenging is that middle section has these different elements of like, like schoolwork, like extracurricular activities, like friendships, and we give some brainstorming for them to talk about, okay, in their lives, for their family, as a group, talk about what is the middle way
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Paul Karos:Of these things.
Michelle Moujaes:I I think it causes you to think.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. Right? Well, and to be clear, the middle way isn't something we invented. It's something that the church fathers gave us. Okay.
Cindy Karos:And, I mean, if you think about that path, if you think looking right or looking left, the the right way is to go down the middle. Right? And that the distractions are on the right and on the left. That's right. They tell us to stay in the middle way.
Cindy Karos:But the thing is the church fathers weren't around to kind of tell us a little about technology
Michelle Moujaes:You're or
Cindy Karos:you know, about sports. They didn't have like activities. Yeah. So we need to take what the church fathers has... Have given us and apply it and see how we can do that.
Cindy Karos:And we've given a variety of different examples, and that's exactly what they are, examples.
Paul Karos:They're just examples.
Cindy Karos:And we hope that parents will be able to have some fun with those sections. Yeah. Yeah. Either together or with a group.
Michelle Moujaes:Well, what I love... Okay. Here's one of my favorite parts, is that there is freedom as a parent reading them. It's... You guys offer frameworks, which is you don't say do this or you're wrong or do this and you're right.
Michelle Moujaes:You're like, it's a framework. How can we think about... Like, I've had this conversation with you. Is it public school, private school, homeschooling? Anything of those can be used to glorify God.
Michelle Moujaes:How do you give yourself a framework to think about if I choose this, here are some considerations. If I choose this, here are some considerations. And, I mean, I think it's so helpful. You know what? What analogy keeps coming to my mind?
Michelle Moujaes:This is horrible. Michelle's therapy time. Yesterday, I was in coffee hour. This is way too much information, but I'll just tell you. I was in coffee hour at church, and one of our friends brought these beautiful donuts.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. I've been on a no carb diet for six years, and I looked and I was like, I'm totally having that donut. So I got this big fat donut on my plate, and my goddaughter was standing there, and she's like, you don't have to eat the whole thing. You could just have half. I was like, what?
Michelle Moujaes:Is that even possible?
Paul Karos:The middle way?
Michelle Moujaes:It was
Cindy Karos:the middle way.
Michelle Moujaes:That's what I was thinking about. It was like, why couldn't you without eating the whole thing? And that's one of the things that I love that you guys offer, which is like a whole just a new way of looking at things because I do think what the world offers us is so extreme. Yes. And it's painful that way.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. You know?
Paul Karos:And, you know, and every family has got us kinda struggle with this. They have different children, different, you know, situations, different dynamics, and there's great freedom in the church.
Michelle Moujaes:But
Paul Karos:this concept the fathers give on middle way, I I don't... We have to hold the presses and go back and put in carbs on the middle.
Michelle Moujaes:I know. I don't
Cindy Karos:know. I don't know.
Michelle Moujaes:Anyway, the the bottom line is Yeah. I do think it's a kindness to parents, which is what I love about this book, which is you are probably doing better than you think. It's not all or nothing. Let's just take a second, take a breath, and recalibrate.
Cindy Karos:Right. Well... And I think one of the things we try to do in the book is to help people realize that as you're on this journey, on this path, those distractions can kind of take us away from where we're heading. And I I... We use an example of a highway.
Cindy Karos:And I'm the driver in the family, so I am very for
Paul Karos:those of you that don't know, so
Cindy Karos:I don't have
Michelle Moujaes:to glad you're
Paul Karos:not the driver in the who loves to drive, by the
Cindy Karos:That's good. Happened to me more than I'd like to think. But you know how sometimes you're on a highway, and another highway jumps in, and now you Emerges in. Yeah. You're now driving together on two highways.
Cindy Karos:And then eventually, the new highway veers off.
Paul Karos:K.
Cindy Karos:Well, sometimes if you're not paying attention, you're on the wrong path, and you were really planning to go this direction. Well, that's the same with all the things in our lives, in our kids' lives, our own lives. Right? And the idea is that we need to realize if we are heading down the wrong path to a different summit or a different destination, it's okay to just jump back on. So you're saying, Cindy, if, for example, work.
Cindy Karos:It's a good thing to work. Yeah. It's a
Michelle Moujaes:good thing to provide for your family. It's a good thing to, like, pursue the next level of excellence perhaps, you know, or raise or a job promotion. But if you notice that that's trying to become the summit and you're way far from the path towards Christ, then you gotta recalibrate and come back. Exactly. Yeah.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. And one of the best ways to find that out is is Christ in your life.
Michelle Moujaes:Can you tell me what you mean by that?
Cindy Karos:Your life. Are you praying? Are you going to church? Are you, are you fasting? All the things that would help us stay on that path.
Cindy Karos:And if the answer is no, you realize, oh, all of a sudden, without realizing it, I'm on a completely different track.
Paul Karos:And that that happened to me in work years ago in the in the nineties... Eighties and nineties when I was on Wall Street, and I didn't realize that double road that Cindy's talking about. I was working hard, and work is good, providing for your family and using your talents. This is all very virtuous. But it got so intense, and I was so...
Paul Karos:It became everything for me. It was a separate destination to a different summit, and, it was not good. It was really not good for my body and soul. So I did have to come back. That's the only way.
Paul Karos:And that's the great news with the Lord and with the church. We just turn around. Just... It's repentance.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
Paul Karos:It's a life of repentance, and that's a lifelong thing. We're we're gonna hopefully just keep repenting till we're gonna meet the Lord someday. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Alright. So I want you to tell us. Your kids are all adults now.
Cindy Karos:Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:Two of them are married. One of them is about to be married. They've all stayed close to the church. Tell us what would you say you're so glad you prioritized and what if anything would you do differently?
Paul Karos:Wow.
Michelle Moujaes:I know. Not to
Paul Karos:put you on One thing I would say is talking about the Lord and the church in the home on a regular basis about everyday things, about virtues, about gifts of the Holy Spirit, just about what what are we trying to do here. Right. That I would say what was something that I think was we feel very blessed we were doing because I think it had a big impact. It makes the the the relationship with Christ and the relationship with the... With his church real.
Paul Karos:Instead of just being a Sunday thing and we don't really talk about God much at all.
Michelle Moujaes:I agree with that, actually. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. And I think, building a community, making sure that we had both, friends outside of the church who love the Lord and friends inside of the church that we could raise our kids with because, in both cases, it really made a difference for our kids. And as it related to the the Orthodox community, it was much easier when you're teaching fasting or going to confession or maybe I had to skip a few baseball games to go to camp. I mean, those kinds of things where the world is really trying to grab our kids, it became a little easier if you had a team of people doing it together.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. And it was kind of the norm. Yeah. This is what we do. This is what our community does.
Paul Karos:And it and it helps grow you and it helps, you know, heal you. The the... Our faith is the faith of healing. That's what our faith is. You know?
Paul Karos:And that part about confession that Cindy that you just made, I think that's a really powerful one. A monk on Manathos told me he's like the guest master, so he sees people from all over the world. And he told me as he has met all these men from all over the world, if he could give one piece of advice to parents would be to start with confession when the kids are young. Okay. And I would say...
Paul Karos:And and the reason he said that, he said because then they learn how to go to the spiritual father for little things that might even be silly things that we know are kinda of silly. I hit my sister, I punched my brother, you know, whatever. But he said then when they get older, they'll know that they can go safely to the to the to their priest, have confession, and start anew. And so I think that is... And if we aren't going to confession when the kids are young or if you aren't going to confession as a parent, it's okay.
Paul Karos:Just start. Start with yourself first so the kids can see you going to confession. And then depending how old the kids are, it's gotta be freedom if they're much older, if they're like high school because at that point, you wanna make... You don't wanna force anything. But through your example, god willing, they'll be inspired to begin it because we all need it.
Paul Karos:It's the therapy of the soul.
Cindy Karos:There's so much anxiety and stress. I mean, to have to carry that around, carry it around, and to be able to just let go of that. That's a gift. That is a gift. No one really sees as a
Michelle Moujaes:gift. No. We see it as, like, a thing we have to do that's really
Cindy Karos:uncomfortable and scary. It's one of those tools.
Michelle Moujaes:It's one
Cindy Karos:of those tools that help us let go of the stuff that we're carrying. I love that. It's it's beautiful.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we don't really think about those tools Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:All the time as we should. Okay. Is there anything you wish you worried about less with your kids? Oh gosh. Didn't matter as much as you thought
Paul Karos:it would?
Cindy Karos:Sure. Like, team they were gonna make when Yeah. Yeah. In ten minutes, they were tired of the sport. We were more invested than they were.
Cindy Karos:Or, you know, actually, disappointments is another one. I wish I wouldn't have tried to fix so much. Mhmm. I wish I would have. And as as we got older, as we got a little wiser in our parenting, we did let them feel some disappointment.
Cindy Karos:Because if they can't solve a disappointment or bring that disappointment to Christ, how are they gonna do it when they leave our home? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So...
Michelle Moujaes:Because it's not like they are not gonna happen when they're alone.
Paul Karos:We don't ignore them when they're disappointed, but if we can just come alongside them, and we would... We wish we would have done that
Michelle Moujaes:earlier. Earlier.
Paul Karos:Instead of fix everything because we felt their pain, and we didn't want them to feel pain. And the truth is is that suffering brings endurance and endurance brings character and character brings hope, Saint Paul says. And so to let them have that and then just come alongside them, they'll become resilient just from that alone.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. I wish we would have done this earlier. We did toward the end of our kids' lives. But, you know, when they came into the door with a bad experience with a friend, I mean, sometimes we were good at, let's just ask God for some help in that. Let's let's pray for that person.
Cindy Karos:You know? It took us a while to get there, but if we can help them see that when they have one of those issues, let's bring it right to Christ. And sometimes it takes... You know, you have to wait until later
Paul Karos:in evening. Night.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. Yeah. Let them calm down or whatever the case is. But Or have the feelings for that faster or better, you know, along the way. But I like that.
Cindy Karos:Figured it out by the end.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. I like that. So if a parent really does want to see what summit they're climbing towards, where where would they figure that out? Is it like their calendar or their bank account?
Michelle Moujaes:Like, what is it that would tell them this is really what we... What they worry about most? Like, what would that look like?
Paul Karos:Yeah. Those are good things to take a look at our calendars, definitely. What what are we doing, socially? Who are we socializing with? Is there any Orthodox Christians in that group?
Paul Karos:Okay. For us, there there really is very few that we are socializing with outside of Sunday liturgy. Okay. So you're
Cindy Karos:Interesting thing about that is when we pay for a sport or, I don't know, music lessons or whatever, those things are right on our calendar. Mhmm. But maybe when the church calendar comes out with all the youth group stuff or whatever, maybe we're just not putting that on the calendar. So... Or maybe it's on the calendar, but we're skipping it because it didn't cost $500, like music, you know, whatever it might be.
Paul Karos:So And one other thing on the calendar might be if it's so... If we're so busy, we'll know it because we're feeling overwhelmed. Then it's time to look at the calendar. Just, you know, tweak it and tone it down a little bit so there's low margin in the family. In the pocketbook, you know, the biggest thing that we see with young families that people we've worked with is the temptation and it's really hard is to spend money on extracurriculars that then leave the family under enormous financial stress.
Paul Karos:Mhmm. Because it... You know, we don't wanna disappoint our kids. We don't want them to feel left out. If if we can't afford extracurriculars, let's just get creative on other things for now until we can.
Paul Karos:Because if we put a lot of financial stress on the family because of kind of going over the edge of our skis on what we can really afford, it shows up in other ways in the home with that kind of stress. Mhmm. So that... That's another big temptation of the culture that no matter what, do it for your kids because they're gonna fall behind or be left behind. No.
Paul Karos:Are we developing their character? That that matters. Are we... Are they getting to know Christ? That matters.
Paul Karos:You know? And we'll do all these things to the extent we can. But if we can't, then we we have a conversation. The kids understand. If it's done with love, they're gonna understand.
Paul Karos:Okay? And the last one would probably be our worries. You know? Look for our worries. Because where we're worried, where we're anxious, we would say, looking back when we were anxious, it's really okay, Lord.
Paul Karos:Is this a fear that's on the path? In other words, we're we're worried about this thing. Let's say the kid... Our son's not gonna make a certain team. Is that critical to the path of Christ?
Paul Karos:No. Probably not. No. Are we worried that he isn't really knowing that the Lord loves him? That's a good thing for us to get anxious.
Paul Karos:Saint Piuses calls it good restlessness. Ah. That's good restlessness to, you know, to do something that's on the path. That's good restlessness. So sometimes just looking at our worries can help.
Cindy Karos:We we found that when we were worried about things like that, it it showed up in our parenting negatively. You know, we're barking more or yelling more or impatient with something else. So, you know true. It's it's important. It's important to think about that.
Cindy Karos:But but the good news is any of those things get right back on the path. Mhmm. I mean, none of it's bad stuff.
Michelle Moujaes:I mean, you're gonna blow it. Like, you're not gonna nail it every
Paul Karos:You got the real perfection here.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. And then... And sometimes when you're blessed to have a partner, you know, the other one will say, hey, you know, you're a little on the Right. Right. Deep end on that.
Cindy Karos:You might chill out a little. Or Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's helpful. I like it.
Paul Karos:Cindy would say it to me at, like, the end of the night sometimes, you know, and she would... Wouldn't do it in front of the kids, but that night she's... We'd get into bed and just say, you know, that was a little too intense. And then, ugh, you're right.
Cindy Karos:It's interesting having a blind husband who can't give eye contact.
Paul Karos:Yeah. Right. No. You can't,
Michelle Moujaes:like, glare him down like, what
Paul Karos:are you
Michelle Moujaes:saying, Paul?
Paul Karos:She has started kicking me off the table, She'll
Cindy Karos:never try
Michelle Moujaes:to kick
Paul Karos:me off the table because I can't see her eyes and say, what are you doing?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. I love it so much. I love it so much. Okay.
Michelle Moujaes:Last question, and then maybe you'll have time for a few, listener questions? Sure. Okay. So when an Orthodox parent is reading this book and they flip that final page in this beautiful book, what do you hope has changed for them?
Paul Karos:I think the first thing would be that they know where they're climbing k. Today, and that, God willing, we've inspired them to choose the summit of Christ, eternal life, salvation. That would probably be the the biggest thing.
Cindy Karos:And I would add just to pick one thing. Don't get overwhelmed. I mean, we tried to provide so many different ideas. You aren't supposed to do all of those ideas. We didn't by any means nor would we ever say that.
Cindy Karos:Pick one thing. Pick one thing and try it. And, you know, if that helps you,
Michelle Moujaes:give it a shot. I love it. I love it so much. Before we get to listener questions, I just wanna thank you, you, authors, board chair at the time of this recording of Faith Tree, and people who have given relentlessly and time and resources have taken a step further. And you've said that all the proceeds of this book are going back to Faith Tree, which is so helpful and such an encouragement.
Michelle Moujaes:So I just wanna thank you for that.
Cindy Karos:We so believe in the work that you're doing.
Michelle Moujaes:Thank you.
Cindy Karos:I mean, no matter where we go, we're hearing from parents who are hearing a podcast. An old one, a new one, can't wait for the next one. I mean, really is
Paul Karos:making a groups or teen groups or college groups going through the relationship project or the the the liturgy project or the lion's heart with the men. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we we hope and pray that the book is bought a lot so that faith where you can keep doing that great work for families, for parishes. It's it's wonderful, Michelle.
Michelle Moujaes:Glory to god. And love doing it with both of you. Alright. Jonathan from Richmond, Virginia is the father of two boys, and he writes, my younger son, age 10, has a real shot at a travel baseball team, but it means missing liturgy most Sundays for at least half the year. I know you talk about the middle way, and I don't even know what it looks like here.
Michelle Moujaes:Is there a version of yes that could still keep us on the path? Oh, that's a good
Paul Karos:Oh, that is such a hard... You got a talented young player there. And it's very difficult to be in the middle way if you're not gonna be able to attend the Lord's Supper, the the divine liturgy on a regular regular basis. So I would maybe consider talking to the league, find out what does that actually look like because sometimes they are afternoon tournaments a lot of the time. But do your homework.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Paul Karos:And part of being on the middle way is to actually think through what it is. But if it turns out that in fact it's all that boy, you know, that's a big sacrifice. And for for our family, we would have probably said we just can't do that. Yeah. Okay?
Paul Karos:And we're not gonna tell any other family what to do for themselves. Okay? There's other ways. You can go to Vespers the night before. There's...
Paul Karos:But that I think for for our family, probably would have been tough to do.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. Yeah. But we we were really creative. I mean, we tried to find out when all the other Orthodox services were in the Twin Cities. The the OCA had one at 08:30 in the morning, one at eleven.
Cindy Karos:So we tried to do that so that our kids would really see that we feel it's important. That's right. So that they are more important.
Paul Karos:This is the challenge of our modern day... You know, we have such a drive for excellence in America, which is a good thing. Right? The drive for excellence is actually a virtue excellence. The challenge is is when the excellence, is leading to a goal that really is disconnected from Christ in his church.
Paul Karos:And so this is where we have to struggle and, you know, instead of saying exactly what to do, we would just say as a family, sit down and talk about it. That's a big deal. That's a very
Michelle Moujaes:good deal.
Cindy Karos:And I would
Michelle Moujaes:call out that there are creative ways that we just don't think all the time to explore. I know I've heard stories of Troy Palomalo, who is an Orthodox gentleman who played for Pittsburgh Steelers. That's right. But he still made liturgy every week Wow. Even on the road.
Michelle Moujaes:So I haven't heard that from him directly, but I
Paul Karos:think they're creative and do it. Yeah. Get creative, and maybe you can find the middle way there
Michelle Moujaes:and do that. Yeah.
Paul Karos:Yeah. Know? So that... That's that's a great point,
Cindy Karos:Michelle. We've... We know parents whose children, actually did miss church and got to maybe the freshman level of college and didn't make a team. And at that point, their kids really weren't connected because it wasn't important.
Paul Karos:Freshman year
Cindy Karos:of high school.
Paul Karos:Oh, college.
Cindy Karos:Oh. College.
Paul Karos:Oh, college.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. So Oh, it
Paul Karos:didn't make a college team.
Cindy Karos:Right. That's true. Yeah. So it's... You you really have to to recognize that it's a a risk that you take.
Michelle Moujaes:Would you guys say this? I kind of feel like there's this lie that we're told that you can have it all. But I don't really feel like that's true.
Paul Karos:Yeah. Yeah. You know, so for us Orthodox Christians, what does it mean to
Michelle Moujaes:have all Christians? Yeah. That's what
Paul Karos:I did.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. What does it mean, Paul?
Paul Karos:It means really that... You're right. It means that we have Christ in our heart and that we're growing and that we're repenting and that we're getting back up and that that we're starting to bear fruit to those around us. That's having it all.
Cindy Karos:We're content.
Paul Karos:Okay. We
Cindy Karos:have joy. We know that God's got our back.
Michelle Moujaes:I mean,
Cindy Karos:those kinds of things is, in my opinion, is having it all.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. Right. Right.
Cindy Karos:And maybe... You know, I mean, one of the things we've talked about a lot is that we had kids who were involved in multiple sports at high levels. But in the end, they didn't continue on with those. The the virtues they learned by being in those sports continued on in our life. They were great team players.
Cindy Karos:They knew when they lost how to be a good loser. They were
Paul Karos:They're happy for teammates.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. They... If they had jealousy toward a teammate or whatever, they had to work through that. Yeah. Yeah.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. And, you know, so it's important that we know that those things are helpful. The key is, you know, the more you get off on that path Right. Right. Right.
Cindy Karos:Harder it is to come back. That's right.
Paul Karos:And and then the last thing to your question there, though. I mean, as you work hard in life and if you have good work virtues, which we talk about in the middle way on work in the book, you know, it's kind of ironic. Good Christ like work virtues tend to lead to, advancement in jobs because character still does matter. And employers still do see excellence or commitment or the way you treat your workmates. That stuff does matter and it does tend to lead to advancement even from a worldly perspective.
Paul Karos:It's just we don't make that the goal. It will just happen naturally. Right. It'll happen.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. Right. Right. I love it. Alright.
Michelle Moujaes:Last question, and it's not from a listener. It's from me. Okay. Why is it so important or at least I know it's your preference, that people who read this beautiful book would do it in a group? Why can't we just read it?
Cindy Karos:Well, you should just read it. Okay. So if someone doesn't have a group, we really hope they read it because it is a really helpful tool. But I think we would say no one has all the answers. We certainly don't.
Cindy Karos:Okay. There's so much learning that can happen in a group. Okay. Everybody's going through the same thing. So even the reinforcement of, oh my gosh.
Cindy Karos:I'm in the middle of that too.
Paul Karos:Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Cindy Karos:That's a great feeling.
Michelle Moujaes:That actually is a great feeling to help people just take exhale and be like, oh, I'm not the only one.
Paul Karos:I'm not doing... I'm not the only one that's struggling with Our prayer night is a disaster. People are all over the place, and kids are, you know, impatient. And, oh, oh, we're not the only family that's struggling with that. And so I think that part is huge.
Paul Karos:And, you know, I look back some of the things we learned from our other families. Oh my gosh. We learned so much from other
Michelle Moujaes:Orthodox families. Tell them about your Kenonia groups? Tell them. Because I know that they're a large part of what inspired the course that this book came out of, and god willing, what we will be able at Faith Tree to continue to create for parents. So can you just quickly tell them about that?
Paul Karos:You bet.
Cindy Karos:Well, our church was trying to, help a very large parish, you know, have community. And so they they decided to come up with this idea of kenonia groups. And
Paul Karos:Kenonia means fellowship in Greek.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. So, it was a once a month project, and we took it on. We thought, why not? It was right about the time when we decided, hey. We're not spending very much time outside of our church Sunday with other Orthodox people.
Cindy Karos:So, we invited eight couples... Seven couples.
Paul Karos:Families, actually.
Cindy Karos:Families, yes, to come and join us. They had like aged children. And once a month for probably twelve to fourteen years Yeah. We got together on a Thursday, and it started with a a light dinner. It was potluck.
Cindy Karos:And then
Paul Karos:We'd have the dressage in prayer?
Cindy Karos:Right. We started with some prayers, had this potluck, and then we split the children and the parents. And I facilitated the parents and Paul, the children, and we talked about some topic. And it might have been the upcoming
Paul Karos:Gospel of the week.
Cindy Karos:Right? Or it could have been a feast day or whatever the case. Was very light conversation.
Paul Karos:We called Orthodox light.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. Oh, good. And then afterwards, we would have, as long as anybody could stay, we'd have some dessert, coffee, whatever the case was. But what would happen in those times is maybe we had set out to talk about a particular topic, and one of our friends was falling apart about something. And we were all there to have
Paul Karos:Some a parenting issues. Some... You know?
Cindy Karos:Some them. Even a family issue or whatever. And we just stopped talking about what we had planned to talk about, but we built real community. And in those groups, we had sort of decided, well, maybe we should do this with our kids. And they all agreed, so we were all sort of on the same path about going to an evening liturgy or, you know, things like
Michelle Moujaes:a big difference.
Cindy Karos:And to be honest with you... Yeah. I hate to say this, but when your friends... When your kids' friends are going to an evening liturgy, they may not be inspired yet to go to an evening liturgy. But when they know their friends are gonna be there Much different.
Cindy Karos:Hey. It works. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Cindy Karos:They looked forward to going.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. I love that.
Cindy Karos:Types of things. And we would hope that people might consider doing something similar, maybe even without the kids. We've also done it in a date night fashion. Yeah. Yeah.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. Whereas no kids, and they have an opportunity to have, like, a date night with four other parents, four other sets of parents, five sets of parents, whatever it might be. And they get together once a month, and maybe they take a part of the book. It some wine and have a conversation.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. It makes me think of, that concept when you're a business owner or you have a small business that there are times where you're working in the business, but you gotta come outside of that and work on the business at some point. Make sure, are the systems right? Are the margins... Like, are we doing the right things to yield the result that we want?
Michelle Moujaes:But I think for parents, if you don't ever remove yourself... And date night, I think, is really important because that's one of the first things that can go is to really work on the business of parenting and really think about not just doing the hustle of carpool and meals and getting everybody's, you know, homework folder out the door and sign all the things, but really making sure that you and your spouse or if you're a single parent, you and your trusted friend or a godparent or whatever it is can think about like, am I going in the right direction? Like, super important.
Paul Karos:You know, Michelle, the the workshop that we brought to you, that is what we did it as a date night for the... So four months, two hours, once a month. And it it was really nice having just the parents that could be free to bond with each other.
Cindy Karos:Hosted in a home.
Paul Karos:Hosted in a home.
Cindy Karos:And what was really interesting is is we'd have a young parent come up and say, we haven't taken time to talk about our kids in ages. Yep. I mean, we're worried about the furnace going out or
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Cindy Karos:You know, having to go out and mow the lawn. Yeah. I mean, this was really great. And also at that workshop... Those workshops, we made sure that there was a segment where you spoke with your own spouse.
Cindy Karos:Yes. And then we also split people up. Integrates. That's where the reinforcement stuff happened.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it.
Cindy Karos:And everybody walked away feeling better
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. Than worse. You know?
Michelle Moujaes:Or at least having some really good new ideas.
Paul Karos:Yeah. That's right.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Cindy Karos:That's right.
Paul Karos:Yeah. We're in
Michelle Moujaes:this together.
Paul Karos:We're in this together.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, you guys, always the biggest joy to have you here. We're so grateful for your ministries and all the work that you do in the church and especially for the work that you've done for Faith Tree and now for parents.
Cindy Karos:God bless making God bless it. Thank you. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Will you
Cindy Karos:come back? Absolutely. Sure.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Great. Paul and Cindy's new book, Raising Orthodox Christians, is available for preorder starting today. So we'll put all the links in the show notes along with all the details on all sorts of preorder bonuses that we have for you. So go out and grab it before you do anything else.
Michelle Moujaes:And if you're listening today and feeling behind in any way, hear this clearly. You do not have to have it all figured out. I mean, I certainly don't. You don't have to be able to explain the summit perfectly to your six year old tonight. You don't have to talk about the middle way.
Michelle Moujaes:You just have to know where you're headed, and you have to take one honest step back toward it over and over and over for the rest of your life. That's the whole point. Don't forget to download your free digital parent discussion guide linked in the show notes so that you and your spouse or a friend or a godparent can talk through today's conversation together. And if the episode moved you even a little, please consider sharing it with another parent in your parish. That's how more families like yours can find the show.
Michelle Moujaes:As always, thank you for joining us, and we will see you next time.