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A weekly show from the folks at East Lansing Info breaking down all the news and happenings in East Lansing, Michigan.
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the East Lansing insider podcast. I'm East Lansing Info's city government reporter, Ayah Imran. And before we start this episode, a trigger warning is advised this conversation discusses sexual assault, including gang rape and drugging. This week, we'll be talking about college and university sexual violence, including hookup culture and sexual media use.
Ayah Imran:Joining with me today is doctor Sarah Prior, an associate professor at MSU whose research broadly focuses on issues and... Of gendered violence with an emphasis in areas including campus sexual violence and the institutional action or inaction of colleges and universities. Sarah, it is so lovely to have you here.
Sarah Prior:I'm happy to be here. Great.
Ayah Imran:Okay. So, recently, there have been two cases that have served larger conversations online about sexual assault, one involving a former Michigan State University physician and a second involving seven Cornell University students. Rather than discussing the specific details of the cases, I would like to focus on the broader context of how pervasive sexual violence is. Can you explain how rape culture manifests at universities?
Sarah Prior:Oh, definitely. I'm happy to. So I would say that this is not one specific university problem. This is a cultural problem on college campuses. What we see in the broader societal data is that relationship violence, sexual violence is decreasing, but what we see on comp...
Sarah Prior:College campuses is that largely it is either staying the same or it is increasing. So we noticed that there is something that's happening on college and university campuses that is creating an environment that maybe not outwardly, but socially violence against women in particular and sexual minorities is pervasive.
Ayah Imran:Interesting that it has decreased but not on universities. I did not Know that piece. Can you tell me a little bit about, like, why
Sarah Prior:that is? Yeah. So I think that there are, some assumptions that we make about things that are happening on college and university campuses. Some of it has to do with drinking culture. We see that, you know, for many young people, they are coming to college for the first time.
Sarah Prior:They are drinking and in social situations that they have not found their self in previously, so that I think drinking and drinking culture on college campuses is one piece of it. The consolidation of young people in one place is another piece of this with young people engaging in all kinds of behaviors all in the same place. Media plays a role in this, in the ways in which we think about what college is supposed to be and what it's supposed to look like. We can talk a little bit about that if we talk about hookup culture. But, also, I would suggest that Greek life has a lot to do with it as well.
Sarah Prior:And Cornell is not the first of cases to to deal with, issues wherein violence is perpetuated within the Greek life system, and it is often either swept under the rug, hidden for brand management, or, not really grappled with, and there are very few consequences that, the Greek system experiences. Yeah.
Ayah Imran:One of my questions is actually about how dating apps and the culture around pornography impact hookup culture. If you can speak to that.
Sarah Prior:Yeah. So I think... I mean, I'm old enough to where dating apps were not a thing when I was young. I think I'm very thankful for that. But I...
Sarah Prior:But dating apps, and especially a variety of kinds of dating apps and the the purpose that people aren't going to dating apps for. Right? I think historically when dating apps started, it was much more about I'm trying to find my soulmate, my partner in life. Mhmm. That is not how dating apps are, often utilized today.
Sarah Prior:And so we see young people engaging with dating apps for the sole purpose, for sexual encounter, or for other things, but it typically is not looking for a life partner, that I think influences... Just our our constant engagement with media, I think influences the ways in which we may feel more or less willing to share explicit and illicit photos, pornographic images. So I think all of those things intertwined play out in that. I'd also say, you know, The United States is fascinating because we have overall a fairly puritanical understanding about sex. We don't like to talk about it a lot.
Sarah Prior:We don't do a great job of educating young people about it, and yet we have this enormous porn industry. Yeah. And so it's it's sort of conflicting perspectives about how we understand how young people are supposed to be engaging in sex. Mhmm. But, yeah, I'd say dating apps, not all of them, obviously, and I don't even know all of them, but they are, I think, very much related to the ways in which we think about hookup culture.
Sarah Prior:And pornography, I think, saturates itself in all kinds of different things, not just hookup culture, but a lot of different ways in which young people engage with each other.
Ayah Imran:Early education piece is so interesting because I think a lot of the times when we'll talk about sex, it's often, like, the act itself rather than, you know, talking about consent and all the early foundations that go into bodily autonomy and establishing that.
Sarah Prior:Yeah. We don't... We do our young people a disservice by not thinking about all of the ways that consent plays out in relationships, not just with, yes. I wanna have sex with you, or no. I don't wanna have sex with you.
Sarah Prior:Oftentimes, sex education in The United States is sparse at best. Right? There's a lot of, programs that are still, abstinence only sex ed programs. There are very few programs that are really looking at an inclusive perspective on how we understand human sexuality, how we understand bodily autonomy, sexual citizenship, all these things. Do our young people a service by teaching them much younger what consent can look like for a whole host of different things.
Sarah Prior:I do see that shifting. Right? There's a lot of parents out there who no longer are forcing their children to have contact with other people that they don't want. Right? You don't have to hug that person anymore.
Sarah Prior:You don't have to, like, sit on that weird uncle's lap. We are, I think, moving in a better direction with that. But the ways in which we think about the word consent is so frequently just tied up with sex that we're missing the opportunity to help young people learn how to have conversations about when you can and can't consent, what consent can mean, what verbal consent looks like, what enthusiastic consent looks like. I work with wonderful colleagues in Ireland who who look at consent from a a whole host of perspectives, thinking about it from how do we have this conversation starting with really young kids about, yes. I want this.
Sarah Prior:No. I don't want that. And and we miss that, I think, here in The United States. And and it's playing out on college campuses all over. And and hookup culture, I think, too, is related to that understanding of consent and the ways in which young people are feeling compelled to engage in activities that they may not want, but they feel like that's what college is supposed to be about.
Ayah Imran:I think it's really interesting when you, you know, when you do get to college, there is this huge emphasis on, like, party, especially at MSU where we're a party school.
Sarah Prior:Mhmm. And
Ayah Imran:feeling the need to sort of fit in, but also not knowing where your own personal boundaries are and, you know, maybe not even having that experience with establishing those boundaries Extreme. Layering on, you know, drugs or if you're under the influence of alcohol or any So I'm curious through your research, have you noticed a difference between, like, verbal consent and nonverbal consent and how people perceive the two?
Sarah Prior:I mean, consent itself is so interesting to me as somebody who looks at this. Right? We, young people in general, don't necessarily feel comfortable having just a totally sober, clear conversation about what they want. Yeah. Right?
Sarah Prior:What kinds of sex do they want? What kinds of sex don't they want? What kinds of contact do they want? What is grade one? We tend to think that consent isn't very sexy in The United States.
Sarah Prior:And because of that, we haven't equipped young people with the skills to have those conversations. And so often when decisions about sexual activity are happening, they're happening under the influence, which makes it illegal. Right? You can't consent to, anything when you are under the influence of something. But we haven't equipped young people with the the ways in which to talk about that and the ways in which to have those conversations.
Sarah Prior:Nonverbal consent is a is a thing. Right? In relationships, oftentimes, you can... You you and your partner... You and your sexual partner might be...
Sarah Prior:Might have great understandings of that nonverbal consent. But if you're with a stranger, it's really hard when there isn't verbal consent to know what nonverbal consent is. Because, you know, a piece of this is about power and and who has power to assume consent and who doesn't. Who has power in a situation to express consent. Right?
Sarah Prior:If you're super uncomfortable and you fear for your safety, it's a lot harder to engage in in consent, in a voluntary way than than we might see otherwise. Yeah. So I think that there's... It's it's really layered of, like, all of the things that are happening. And because we're not giving that foundation to young people of how to do this, they're left to sort of, like, figure it out on their own.
Sarah Prior:And then we see ways in which some people feel like they are entitled to other people's bodies Mhmm. Without having to get consent or with assuming that consent that may or may not be given under the influence is real consent. I think that
Ayah Imran:can also lead a lot of people into feeling an immense amount of shame Okay. And confusion between, you know, this isn't something I wanted, but now I'm feeling really pressured, and I'm not Mhmm. Sure what's going on. Yeah. I mean,
Sarah Prior:you can't give consent if you are coerced. Yeah. And I think that we just don't... We don't talk about it enough, and we don't educate enough about how to navigate those situations and those power dynamics that play out. And so then we have young people who are feeling coerced into engaging in activities that they do not want and they do not consent to.
Sarah Prior:But we also are teaching oftentimes young men that all they're looking for is the no. Right? As long as there is not a verbalized no, everything's fine. And so we're not teaching people how to recognize, oh, this person looks super uncomfortable. They didn't say no, but their body language is telling me not yes.
Sarah Prior:Mhmm. And so how do we how do we get people to understand other people's both verbalized ideas, but also how their bodies are responding to things and reacting to things, which, again, just gets more complicated when alcohol and drugs are involved.
Ayah Imran:Absolutely. Yeah. The lawsuit that was filed by the former Cornell student who identified herself as Jane Doe alleged that seven fraternity members of the kai phi fraternity fraternity gang raped her and drugged her, and one of the members sent a vulgar message in the fraternity group chat suggesting that a woman was available for sex upstairs. There were over dozens of people in this group chat, and yet nobody reported it. How does this happen?
Sarah Prior:So I wanna start by saying that this is a repugnant situation. It's horrific. Like, it is so horrific. And my... I am heartbroken and appalled for Jane Doe.
Sarah Prior:I am so disgusted by all of the people who could have stopped it. Right? 57 people in a Snapchat thread, seven people engaging in the act, 50 other people, no one intervened. No one decided to see if this was something that needed to be investigated or someone needed help. And I think that that structurally is really problematic.
Sarah Prior:And we can see this. There's lots of literature that has investigated male dominated spheres. We can see this in these spaces. I think pieces of it are about hypermasculinity. I think pieces of it are about what used to be a legal, entitlement to women's bodies, but now is more of a social entitlement to women's bodies.
Sarah Prior:And we don't often see that behavior punished. We don't often see individuals who perpetrate this kind of violence be held accountable because we're seeing it in every institution of our of our lives right now. We're seeing it. And so I think it's... The the lack of bystander intervention is just so horrific, let alone all of the institutional things that happened.
Sarah Prior:But the fact that 50 other people could have done something and didn't, it's really just awful in my mind.
Ayah Imran:It is extremely egregious. A lot of
Sarah Prior:it is this entitlement. Right? This way in which we have we have sexualized sexual violence, and we see it in the media, and we see it in the ways that boys chat with each other in their group chats and in their locker rooms, and they hear public officials say the same sorts of things, we have excused that kind of behavior. And it... It's just so reprehensible to think that that...
Sarah Prior:I mean, this is a person. This is a human being, and we've really distanced ourselves from that, I think.
Ayah Imran:Do you think there is a lack of accountability regarding sexual assault in specifically male circles, and how do you think the patriarchy influences is this?
Sarah Prior:Yeah. I would say we just greatly devalue women in in society. It's terrible. I mean, I'm I'm raising young women humans, and, it's it's terrible for me to think about the ways in which we just broadly devalue women. And I think if we look historically, that was legal.
Sarah Prior:Right? The ways in which we have, made women property, and the historical legacy of that, right, the historical legacy of that patriarchal peace where men have power and privilege and women do not, still infiltrates itself into our very basic institutions. Mhmm. And we see that in a variety of different ways right now. Right?
Sarah Prior:I mean, yeah, I feel like I can't turn on any social media or the news and not hear about yet another person who has felt entitled to someone else's body and and has very few consequences for that behavior. So, I think a lot of it has to do just with the historical system in The United States wherein we devalue women and we privilege men. And I and I wanna caveat that with the fact that women are not the only victims of sexual violence. We see high rates of victimization amongst sexual minority groups, and we see higher... And we see increasing rates of sexual victimization of men.
Sarah Prior:So it is not just women. But, overall, proportionally, we see more women be victims of violence from men than any other group.
Ayah Imran:And in what ways do you think that men and women are socialized differently that influences their ideas of consent? You've already sort of touched on it.
Sarah Prior:Well, yeah. I mean, if we think about the ways that we teach our young women to to go about their lives. Right? There's there's research that talks about this in the way that it's the safety work. We socialize girls to think of themselves as potential victims.
Sarah Prior:And so we tell them how to behave, what to wear, and what not to wear. We tell them how they can engage, and we don't do the same for men. And we also don't do them the inverse of saying, men, you shouldn't be doing this. We might broadly say that. Right?
Sarah Prior:But but in practice, what we're not seeing is, a constant reinforcement for young men in the same way that we see the constant reinforcement for young women. Right? We have nail polish that's created to see if you've been date raped, like, rape drugs. Yeah. The fact that that even exists, the...
Sarah Prior:We don't teach men to, censor themselves in the world in the same way. Now... So I will say that this is particularly thinking about sexual violence. Mhmm. We teach particularly men of color color to censor themselves in all kinds of other ways.
Sarah Prior:But, like, for this particular thing, thinking about we do not teach... We do not constantly reinforce for young men the same kinds of behavior we constantly reinforce for young women. Young women are trained to think about the potential for violence all the time, from very, very young ages, and it is it is a social... It is the way we have socialized them as potential victims.
Ayah Imran:Shifting towards the university side, do you think that universities do an adequate job at supporting victims of sexual assault? No.
Sarah Prior:Yeah. And it and it isn't just to point fingers just at universities, but I would say that broadly... And the work that I do is looking at institutional accountability and institutional culpability in creating and maintaining and reinforcing these, this culture on campus. Right? Some call it rape culture.
Sarah Prior:Others just the ways in which we think about, the permissiveness of this kind of behavior on college campuses. And so I would say that some institutions do better than others. But on the whole, institutionally, we are not seeing the kinds of dramatic shifts in accountability, in policy, in practice, in creating safer environments for young people that if we cared about this issue, we would see. And so... No.
Sarah Prior:And I would say, what I talk about in my book is is looking at the ways in which universities have been pushed to a business model that's very neoliberal. It's very much about profits and brand management. And so we're not seeing the kinds of accountability happen because they are worried about the bottom line. And we see this especially in cases that involve athletes and in cases that involve, fraternity systems. And so I think that if universities truly wanted spaces where where students were safe, that the priority would shift.
Sarah Prior:I would also say that then we would see more from universities trying to engage with, say, high schools or junior highs on how do we get young people different messages before they even get to us. How do we engage with the community to ensure that the students who are coming here are prepared to engage in, you know, sexual seditionship and bodily autonomy? But we don't see that on the whole.
Ayah Imran:Mentioned that shifting their priorities is one way that, you know, change can happen. I'm wondering what a few other ways are or how university... Universities could better show up for victims of sexual assault.
Sarah Prior:Yeah. Jennifer Fried and the Courage Institute has done some really fascinating work on how do we shift institutions from a model of institutional betrayal, which is what we see... Like, Cornell is a classic example of institutional betrayal. Sometimes MSU is a classic example of institutional betrayal. How do we shift that to have courageous institutions?
Sarah Prior:Institutions who put resources to this, not just because they're trying to protect their brand, but because they're trying to protect their students. They collect data, and they translate that data and transmit it to to the populations that know what's happening. They value the whistleblower when people say things. So there's 11 steps to a courageous institution. But if institutions truly wanted this to be their priority and something they are known for, it would be engaging, I think, in those steps Mhmm.
Sarah Prior:Would be one step that they could take to ensure that we are having institutions who care about all stakeholders in their in their populations, not just those that bring in revenue.
Ayah Imran:What steps do you think could be taken at the personal level that moves the needle towards creating lasting social change?
Sarah Prior:Yeah. I mean, I think people need to be... I think this is true for everything that I say to my students is that you need to be curious to start. You need to want to know other people and other people's experiences. You need to hold each other accountable.
Sarah Prior:The lack... I mean, I think particularly in this Cornell story, the lack of bystander intervention when there were so many other people who could have helped and didn't. I think being able to, at an individual level, think about how you respond to situations and how do you stand up for yourself and for others. Mhmm. I think the ways in which we talk about this is important.
Sarah Prior:So for students to be talking about it with each other, what are they, what is the kinds of things that they're prioritizing in the way that they talk about it and helping them think through what are some of the the ways in which we can have specific policies or practices that we can advocate for as students, but also how are we holding ourselves and each other accountable in the spaces that we're in? Because rape culture exists on a variety of fronts. And sometimes it is blatant and egregious, and sometimes it is so subtle that it's become normalized, and we almost don't even recognize it. And so how do we as individuals navigate the world while recognizing that all of these things exist? I'm wondering from the reporting and assault aspect
Ayah Imran:of officers who, let's say, maybe don't have the most... That aren't the most informed on how to conduct, like, a trauma informed interviewer.
Sarah Prior:How do you think that piece plays into university? So... And I'm specifically thinking of campus police or university police. Yeah. And, I mean, we can think about this as of police police too because not everybody is trauma informed on how to take, a trauma informed disclosure.
Sarah Prior:So I think one thing for all of us to recognize is that trauma manifests itself in a variety of different ways. And so often what we hear in these sorts of scenarios and situations is, well, why didn't they come forward sooner? Well, because trauma has all kinds of ways that it manifests in the body. And oftentimes, not everyone is believes that the system is going to protect them and believe them. And, unfortunately, we have so many examples where it doesn't that it's really hard to convince yourself or others to put yourself through that, not knowing if the system's gonna protect you.
Sarah Prior:But I also think that if we cared about this issue, we would ensure that every single police unit in every single college, in every single department had people who knew how to do this, had trauma informed individuals who know how to take disclosures, who know how to empathize and respect, who know how to ask questions, who know how to read body language. Like, all of these things, if we cared about this, because we know it's an issue, if we cared about it, we would put the resources towards it because that's how we shift it. That's how we change the model that currently exists of oftentimes more secondary victimization and secondary harm that happens once somebody comes forward with a disclosure. And so I think we could do a lot in that area of putting resources towards ensuring that our response units Mhmm. Whoever is taking disclosures is able to take a trauma informed disclosure and knows what to ask and what to look for and how to care for the person who is giving a disclosure, and it then go a long way.
Sarah Prior:See this in the Cornell case where we really see a misstep. We see a misstep in the way that it was taken, but also a misstep, in just the ways that we broadly understand how the system works. I think that that's another piece here. We don't, as a as a general public who doesn't investigate this stuff all the time Mhmm. We don't have a great sense of how the process works, and so we often think it's gonna be just like law and order SVU, and this is...
Sarah Prior:Everyone's gonna get their day in court, and this is how it's gonna go. Yeah. And so rarely does the process actually go
Ayah Imran:like that. Yes. It's a very long and tedious process
Sarah Prior:Mhmm. That retraumatizes victims. Yeah. And and, you know, universities have title nine processes, but these are administrative processes. They're not legal processes.
Sarah Prior:And so I think also... Right? So when you tell your university that something happens, especially if you're telling your university police that something happened, there is an assumption to be made that that is a legal process that will then go someplace else. And that doesn't happen. And so I think that there's a lot of misunderstanding with what the process actually looks like, which then leads to further trauma and, overall, you know, harm from the process.
Sarah Prior:Yes. Yes. And I think that's a really important distinction to make. I wanna I wanna make clear that title nine offices are... The way that I describe them are like the public defenders of the institution.
Sarah Prior:They are overworked and under resourced. So starting there, recognizing that their load is ridiculous. They do not have enough staff. There are high rates of burnout. It is not great.
Sarah Prior:Yeah. But administrative processes, the way the title nine is at universities, it is an administrative process that is often, decisions about hearings and and decision making bodies are often people who are not experts. They are not experts in the field. They do not, they are not necessarily experts in trauma. They are, they are not legal experts.
Sarah Prior:And so you have individuals on a hearing board who are making really important decisions who may not have the kinds of expertise in that area that I think we all would hope that they have since they're making such big decisions. And so the university piece, because it is administrative and not legal, has lots of ramifications in ways that I I think the vast majority of students would have no idea about. Right? They don't. Again, when most of our understanding of these processes is through the media and the media is showing us a legal perspective, we don't understand that the process that we go through at a university is not that.
Sarah Prior:Yeah.
Ayah Imran:Do you think there's anything important, though, that is... Should be mentioned?
Sarah Prior:For me, I would say two things. One, I think we need to hold our institutions more accountable. I think that there has to be a recognition of... In all of these cases, and it isn't just Cornell or the MSU doctor most recently or what's happening at LSU or what's... I mean, the the list goes on and on.
Sarah Prior:Yeah. Institutions need to be held accountable for the ways in which they are, making an environment that is permissive to sexual violence. And students have a great hour in helping at... In helping institutions recognize that. And so I would hope that the outrage from this, because this is outrageous, I would hope that students are very much paying attention to and being aware of what is going on on their campuses.
Sarah Prior:And I would say the the other piece is... That I think is so important is how do we reconcile understanding that people had the ability to stop harm and didn't. And what do we do with that, and how do we move forward and ensure that that's not us. That's not us in that group chat. That's not somebody I know in that group chat.
Sarah Prior:That's not... That that group chat doesn't even exist because we've already said that this kind of behavior is absolutely unacceptable. K. So I'm hopeful for that, but, ultimately, I'm heartsick for what is happening. And the fact that it keeps happening.
Sarah Prior:Right? The ways in which we keep having these issues on campuses, and how is it that we have not learned how to create spaces where people respect other people's bodily autonomy Yeah. And their own sexual citizenship, and how have we not how have we not figured that out yet?
Ayah Imran:Yeah. A friend says, like, an sexually explicit comment that falls under the realm of sexual assault. How can a friend hold them accountable in a situation like that?
Sarah Prior:Yeah. It's hard. I just wanna preface that. Like, especially if there are power dynamics in... Amongst the friends, that that can be really hard.
Sarah Prior:But I also think that we we sometimes feel like we're the only one who's thinking that. Like, oh, I'm the only one who thinks that that was inappropriate because everybody laughed, but we're usually not. And so being brave enough to say something in a way of, like, calling that person of, like, hey. Did you mean it to sound like this? Because this is how I heard it is a way to open the door to calling out the behavior without explicitly shunning the person for the thing.
Sarah Prior:So I think learning some ways in which you can call people in of, hey. Maybe you didn't mean it like this, but this is how I heard it. Or, woah. I'm not sure that we wanna, like, say that kind of stuff because this is what it can mean or, you know, whatever it is. Yeah.
Sarah Prior:I think social dynamics are tough, especially when, you have lots of particularly male group, bonding over sexist comments, because that is that is often a way that male groups bond.
Ayah Imran:And
Sarah Prior:so helping our... The men in our life learn how to intervene in those situations and call that behavior out, I think will go a long way. It's it's hard, and it is uncomfortable. And not everybody likes to be in conflictual situations, but I think it's necessary. We see it right now in real time, how not calling out that behavior, the the kinds of terrible consequences can come from it.
Ayah Imran:Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining me, Sarah. I really appreciate it.
Sarah Prior:Oh, thank you so much for having me, Ayah. I appreciate it.