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The iGaming Leader is hosted by Leo Judkins, founder of The iGaming Leader Mastermind.
Every other week, Leo sits down with Founders, C-suite executives, and VPs from across the iGaming industry for conversations you won't hear on a conference panel. The real decisions. The hard calls. What leadership actually looks like from the inside.
No keynote polish. No PR answers. Just honest conversations between people who know the industry.
New episodes every other Wednesday.
[00:00:00] I don't think I've ever said this publicly, but I'll say it to you now. M- my two partners wanted to do the deal. Quite frankly, I don't think that I did initially. If it was entirely and 100% my decision, I don't think we would've sold the company at that time. But I was outvoted, right? Had we waited a year or two years, as you see where M&A went, we would've gotten a much tidier sum for our asset.
It just- the value would've been enhanced had we hung onto it. A decision that we could get done in one day within the independent DawnBest ecosystem, within the big public multi-billion dollar market cap company, might take three months to get a decision that would take one day. If you'd go back to that time before you did the actual deal, something that you would advise your younger self?
To enjoy the moment and to enjoy the process, and to just appreciate that period of time and not take it for granted.
Leo: Welcome to The iGaming Leader Podcast. I'm your host, Leo Judkins, founder of the iGaming Leader Mastermind, and on this show, I sit down with some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry, diving [00:01:00] into real challenges, high-stakes decisions, and lessons that shape our industry. If you're a VP, director, or C-level executive in iGaming,
this podcast is built for you.
before we dive in, a quick thank you to our sponsors, Sumsub Bloomreach. Sumsub is the full-cycle verification platform trusted by top iGaming operators worldwide. Sumsub helps operators onboard players quickly, stay compliant, and prevent fraud, all without slowing growth. And Bloomreach is the AI platform for marketing automation used by leading iGaming operators, turning player data into real-time engagement that strengthens retention and loyalty.
More information on both in the show notes and in the description. Let's dive in.
Leo: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast. My guest today sold his company without bankers, without process, and says that if he'd waited a year, he'd got double or triple the price. ran Dombest, the odd screen that half the industry grew up staring at, and took it through its, sale to, [00:02:00] SG.
Since then, he's been investing through Avenue H Capital and sits on the board of Kambi. Today, we'regoing from odd screens to trading floors, the exit, the investments that worked, and of course, the ones that didn't. and who a CEO really answers to. Benji, welcome to the podcast. Super excited to have you here, man.
Benjie: Leo, that was, quite the intro. I love it. Let's jump into it
Leo: All right, cool. Hey, ob-obviously I wanna start with Don Best, if that's okay. It's a 20-year-old, odds screen when you came in. At some point you,decided to turn that into a live floor for American sportswhen, when nobody in US was really pricing in-play. what did that moment look like for you? and when were people around, you know, what were the people around you telling you?
Benjie: Well, I think you gotta remember also like the era that we're dealing with, right? You go back to two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, you know, in-play betting didn't really exist in the US. And the DawnBet screen at that point, you know, you go back two thousand and five, six, two thousand and seven, the company was just the DawnBet screen, which was kind of the original Bloomberg terminal for US sports betting.
[00:03:00] And the genesis of all this is that when I began going to the ICE conferences and meeting with all of these sports books out in Europe, I realized that they had not just one subscription to the DawnBet screen, but five, ten, fifteen, twenty subscriptions. And it became evident that they had multiple traders that were eyeing the screen on a very manual basis.
So the first thing we did is took all of that third-party data and automated it into XML feeds, which sounds very, very basic today because it is. But if you go back to two thousand and seven, it really wasn't all that basic. And, that allowed all of our global partners to automate a pre-match betting system for American sports, which we didn't have.
at that point, all of our customers kind of came to us and said, "Benji, our US pre-match product is fantastic, but what we really need now is US sports in-play, and can you provide that to us?" And the reality is, is that nobody was really doing it. it was big for soccer, and it was big for tennis.
But here in the US, [00:04:00] there was no in-play for basketball and hockey and baseball and football. There was halftime betting and,you know. So we endeavored to do that ourselves and went out and built the trading floor. So what the moment looked like is, we had customers that were kind of asking for it, and it became the natural progression for us.
I think we were, in my mind, really the first ones to go out there and create, an in-play betting product for what was initially for us NBA. I think that was maybe two thousand and nine or two thousand and ten. It began with one customer, right? We had one customer in, one jurisdiction out in Europe, and, we hired a guy named Craig Mucklow, who remains a friend of mine, and moved him and his family from Europe to the US, and he began building out our trading floor, if you wanna call it that.
And we had another gentleman who built out all of our models and algorithms, and we had four kids from UNLV that came on board as our traders, and that was the in-play trading team. And, we built out the NBA product, and it was a disaster in year one, a complete [00:05:00] catastrophe. the models weren't strong.
The traders themselves went to school at UNLV and would show up hungover on football Sundays and whatever else. But, we got through the first year, and by the end of the year, our client began actually making money, and then it kinda rolled over from there, and we began building out more clients and more products.
But the genesis is that we saw the void in the market, and we saw that our customers globally would be interested in a product like that for American sports.
Leo: just listening to you, you look back on that and you talk about it with a lot of nostalgia, right? is that still how it feels as well when you think back to those days of kinda kicking about and getting all these new kids on the products and all
Benjie: it just means that we're aging a little bit, I guess. But there's definitely a bit of a nostalgia when we think back to that era. And, you know, look, I was in the thick of it then. We were running a company and traveling the world and trying to build out clientele and building out a trading floor and managing our team and managing the injury reports and just doing everything that entailed running a company such as Don Best.
And we took a lot of pride in [00:06:00] our work, and there was certainly a camaraderie back then. do I miss it? I definitely miss parts of that, for sure. I think I miss all of it, if I'm being honest, but,
You can't turn back the clock. That was then, and this is now
Leo: It's funny, yeah, how weas we age, we kind of keep on looking back trying to find those moments again, and they're obviously gone because it's the first time and, it's all new. when you think back at that time, what's, what's your proudest moment, the one that still stands out that you think about?
Benjie: you and I were talking a little bit before we came on the air here about this being a relationship business, and I think it is that. I think it's the relationships and the comradery and the team building and, working along people that you got to know and that you got to spend a lot of time with that you cared for, and not just people that worked with me and alongside me, and not just my business partners at Don Best who were less visible than I was, but our clients and, people that I spent a lot of time with visiting and, going to the dinners with and that whole aspect of it.
And I think it's really the relationship component of... And, and the pride of doing your own thing and building something and feeling like you're building something that matters. So I [00:07:00] think those are, you know, when I look back at it, the nostalgia in me, those are things that I miss.
Leo: when we were speaking a few weeks ago, you said that great entrepreneur f-refuses to fail, but a great entrepreneur in the wrong box fails anyway. I always think about this with founders, right? when you think back about your best years, how did you tell the difference between kind of the stubbornness that any entrepreneur needs, right?
Being more stubborn when everybody else tells you that you're wrong. so the difference between stubbornness and foresight, how did you tell the difference between those two?
Benjie: you look at today's great entrepreneurs and that refusal to fail and thatsteadfast belief that what they're doing is going to work allows them to find a way to make it work. But at the same time, you have to have flexibility within that dynamic.
There were things that we tried in the Don Best days that failed, and I don't think it failed because they were bad ideas, but maybe we were too far ahead of our time. one of the things that we spent a lot of time on around the same time that we began building out our in-play division was something called Don Best TV, where we began doing all sorts of video clips and [00:08:00] short-form video.
And the videos were great, you know, and we actually started the careers of some people who became reasonably well-known personalities. People like Kelly in Vegas got her start with Don Best TV. a guy by the name of Todd Furman, who went on to do stuff with Fox and his own podcast and has had a great career.
He got his start on Don Best TV, and we also had a guy named Kenny White who was fantastic. And, we had some really good people and good personalities. we invested a fair bit of money into it. and for whatever reason, it just didn't resonate in that era at that time. Certainly, that type of short-form video and longer-form video found a home with companies like VSiN, who had a really nice exit to DraftKings.
And maybe had we stuck with it, it could have been something more interesting. But at the time, we were bouncing a few different balls at the same time, and the in-play trading stuff was really beginning to resonate. And as much as we believed and wanted to make the Don Best TV stuff work, the unit economics just weren't there at that point in time, in our life cycle as a company, and we had to [00:09:00] shelve it
Leo: Timing's such a big thing, isn't it? Like, you know, you can have the best idea, but timing,
Benjie: I think had we stuck with it and kind of found a way to make it work within our ecosystem without burning too much capital, it would've found its place in the ecosystem and created value for us. And, and I think for a lot of today's entrepreneurs, it's the same thing.
You have an idea, you start your company, and you have to have the flexibility to allow that idea to evolve to what's going to lead to the best outcome for you and your investors and what's going to find the sweet spot. And you see it with great entrepreneurs. they ebb and they flow, and they figure out the path, and they know where they're going, and they're not exactly sure how they're gonna get there, and they have to have some flexibility
Leo: That last piece I think I always find so crucial. I love that you said that.Don't quite know where they're going. You'll figure it out as you go, right? You just- it's the vision and that's the path and I love it. You, um,sold to SG in,in 2018. no bankers, no process.
and, uh, when we spoke a few weeks ago, you said if you'd waited a year, you would maybe got double or even triple the price. take me back [00:10:00] inside that decision, if you will. what did you know? What did you not know? And who did you actually trust to kind of talk through this stuff with?
Benjie: Well, so There's a couple of things here. you know, there was always inbound as it pertains to interest in the Don Best asset, the Don Best organization. You know, we danced with a couple of companies over the years, and fortunately, none of those conversations led to, to M&A.
And I say fortunately, because the numbers that we were discussing then, you know, were lower than where we ended up getting to when SG approached us. At the time that SG, I guess now, Light & Wonder approached us, it kind of felt right from a timing perspective. but I have to be honest with you, you know, I had two business partners at the time who were far less visible, but we worked very closely together, a guy by the name of Chris Cape and a guy by the name of Robbie Maness.
we got along famously throughout our tenure within Don Best and can't think of any major disagreements we ever had in terms of how to go about building the company. obviously, I was day to day, and they were a bit more in the background and, being, uh,the quarterback day to day, anything that I suggested [00:11:00] would generally get done and we would go with.
But if we disagreed on something, it was a two out of three, and that's just how it worked, right? And when it came time to sell the company, um, or the time to consider the deal that we did with SG, I don't think I've ever said this publicly, but I'll say it to you now. You know, my two partners wanted to do the deal.
Quite frankly, I don't think that I did initially. my vote was we stay with it. Why? You know, I loved running the company. I enjoyed it. I knew that the, quote-unquote, PASPA repeal was around the corner. We were kind of in the midst of that whole regime, and I felt that there was a lot of upside and value to be had from that.
and I was just in no hurry to, you know, uh,financially, I was in no hurry to, to, to, to get to an exit at that point in my life. by the end of the process once we went down the road, I was excited to sell the company. But at the beginning when they approached us, if it was entirely and 100% my decision, I don't think we would've sold the company at that time.
I think we would've just continued to play ball and figure it out as we go along, the way I suggest to some entrepreneurs to figure things out as they go along. but I was [00:12:00] outvoted, right? And, all- once I was all in on selling the thing, I was all in on it, and it turned out to be a great outcome, and I'm happy with the outcome.
I'm glad that we did what we did, right? but looking past that, yeah, I, I'm of the belief in retrospect, you know, that had we waited a year or two years as you see where M&A went, you know, we would've gotten a much tidier sum for our asset to just, the value would've been enhanced had we hung onto it.
that being said, had we hung onto it beyond that, we would've gotten into COVID, and I don't know how we would've survived COVID, right? So we probably would've figured something out, but a lot of unknowns within that. So the right time to sell your company is when you sell your company. You can always play the game looking back, should I wait longer?
There's no way to know what the future holds. So I, I don't have any regrets about it, but I admittedly would say that had we waited a year to two years, we would've gotten a much bigger sum. It is what it is.
Leo: Benji, we were talking about M&A. Actually you were talking about with or without a banker, and, tell me a little bit more about that for today's entrepreneur. What's, what are some of the pros and cons? What are some of the things that people should be considering in [00:13:00] that process on how they actually wanna execute it?
Benjie: I think a lot of it is kind of like, as I alluded to in our journey, we weren't proactively selling the company or looking to sell the company, but it was inbound, and when the inbound made sense, we got into it. In retrospect, would it have made sense to be more proactive and run a process?
Arguably. So for today's entrepreneur, I think it just depends a lot on their situation, right? If you're building a company and you feel the time is right to go to market, then you have to make a decision. Do you wanna go at it on your own or with your internal people or with some of your friendly advisors?
Or do you wanna bring in the bankers and start running a process and let them go out there and this is what they do for a living. And, they can scratch and find who the potential buyers are and potentially create a competitive situation, and represent your interests along the way.
And of course, they're gonna be paid well for that, as they should be. It's what they do for a living. but they can help guide you and have had experience in building out, relationships with these other companies that they're gonna help sell your company to, right? So I don't think there's a right or wrong within that.
Things to keep in mind [00:14:00] for sure, you know, isthat, if you're working with third parties and working with a banker, you need to be specific on who you wanna work with. And I think the right way to go about that is to interview those folks and, first of all, get a feel from them if they think you're the right fit and what would an M&A process with them look like and what do they feel the value of your company is.
Having those conversations with bankers will help you get a feel for what might be realistic or not realistic in this process. And yeah, there's a certain salesmanship in how they're gonna approach it, as there always is when you're providing a service and selling a service, there's also gonna be an authenticity to it within all that as well.
And you gotta try and find the banker that you feel will be the best fit for you and deliver the best outcome, and those things have to come together. or you go at it alone, right? And you go at it alone doesn't mean that you're on your own in an island, but it could be based on a relationship you have with a certain vendor or a certain client, or a relationship that you have with a company that is in B2C and likes your B2C asset, and you just begin having natural [00:15:00] conversations and see where those lead.
And/or work with your network to put the word out on a very confidential basis and begin having some conversations that way. And then if you get down the line into a meaningful conversation, you're probably gonna need to hire some lawyers to help you with the ins and outs of the process. You know, it'll be a lot cheaper than getting a banker.
There's no right or wrong to this, but I think both are viable options.
Leo: That must be such a difficult part of it, that there are no clear answers, right? just Like in the entire entrepreneurial journey, I suppose, they are all just judgment calls, right? based on best information and based on what you get from around you.
So yeah, how do you decide?
Benjie: I've seen really successful outcomes going both routes. I've seen companies have successful outcomes working with bankers, and I've, you know, worked alongside companies that have done... You know,I think generally speaking, the bigger you get, the more likely you are to work with a banker.
Whereas the smaller you are, the more realistic it becomes to be opportunistic. but if I look at companies that [00:16:00] I've been involved in in the last five, six years, that have had M&A outcomes that I've been intimately involved, I've seen both, and it works well in both scenarios. It's just a question of what's the right fit for you as a founder
Leo: I was talking to somebody from a boutique M&A the other day, and he was saying, " It's a good deal when both sides of it,actually feel a little bit screwed, you know?" And I think that's, you know, where,where you kind of meet in the middle. I don't know if that's true or not, but I love what you're saying about, look, the deal's done. we're not gonna... you can't change the past anyway. but how did you feel after that period, from actually running it to then through an earn-out, I suppose? Like, what did that look and feel like for
Benjie: Here's the first thing. when you sell a company for a reasonable sum of capital, it's a life-changing,
Leo: Yeah, of
Benjie: financial outcome. and it's a great feeling. Like it was announced, I think, at G2E two thousand and eighteen or the first day of G2E.
I, I'd have to look back. I don't remember which one it was, but when it was announced, like There's a certain pride to that. It's a great result, right? And you're the big man on campus for that day when the announcement's made, right? And everyone's asking questions, and they wanna talk to you and [00:17:00] this and that.
and financially, it's just great to see that money hit the bank. It's a great feeling, and I've since had the opportunity to work with some entrepreneurs and sit alongside them when I see their life-changing moment come and I see the money hit their bank accounts and assisting them in that journey, and there's a gratification with that as well.
but then you gotta deal with the reality that you're now, you no longer own the asset, and you're within somebody else's ecosystem, right? And, I was eyes wide open on that. we were coming into Scientific Games ecosystem, right?
They had just previously, maybe eight months earlier, acquired, Matt Davies' company, the OpenBet. I forget the name of the company, but it was primarily the OpenBet asset they were interested in. And, they were still going through the growing pains of integrating OpenBet into their ecosystem, right?
Both from an operational standpoint and from an administrative standpoint. And now they do the DawnBest acquisition, and you stack that on top of the OpenBet acquisition, and the OpenBet was the crown jewel, right? The DawnBest was the pricing that would be powered within [00:18:00] the crown jewel. So we were certainly a lower priority, as we should be, right?
But the whole thing led to, you know, some challenges. challenges administratively, challenges operationally. you know, I had to accept my role of reporting into certain people within the organization within OpenBet, and they were all good people, and they all had, the best of intentions.
But I also had to manage my team and keep people happy, and they were used to working for me. They were used to working in an environment where they would come to me, and things, decisions would get made within, fifteen minutes on some instances. And a decision that we could get done in one day within the independent DawnBest ecosystem, within the big public multi-billion dollar market cap company, you know, might take three months to get a decision that would take one day.
And that was a reality that I was eyes wide open on, and it was a huge challenge though to keep my staff on side and keep my staff motivated and keep my staff from walking 'adjusting to this new reality alongside me.
Leo: Yeah. and for [00:19:00] yourself that must have been difficult as well because, you know, from being an entrepreneurial spirit to even if you work well together, suddenly it's that approval process, right? It's not your, final decision anymore. So
Benjie: isn't unique to Benjii Cherniak. This is something that happens for everyone that gets acquired, right? but some acquisitions are a lot smoother than others, and I wouldn't say ours wasn't smooth, but there were certainly some significant challenges. There always are, right? I think it's something that when you're an entrepreneur and the time comes to consider M&A, you know, if you have multiple options, if you're running a process and looking at multiple options, you gotta consider the financial piece, which is probably the most important for most entrepreneurs.
But it shouldn't be the only factor. You should also consider what will this mean for you and for your employees in the short term, midterm, and long term going forward within the ecosystem of that company. How good a fit will it be? What are your objectives in terms of staying on? Is it six-month passover?
Is it a year? Is it two years? Is it multi years? So I think these are all things that you gotta [00:20:00] consider alongside just the financial piece when you're an entrepreneur if you have the privilege of having multiple suitors that are having conversations with you in regards to your asset
Leo: do you feel that, founders spend, enough time on kind of that part of the decision? Or do they hang too much on the carrot of the exit and potential earn-out and don't consider enough what it's like to now work for someone and what it's like to, have their baby all of a sudden be transformed into something that they don't control?
Benjie: Leo, look, you start a company, right? And you come up with an idea, and you get the thing going, and then you gotta bootstrap it. And then you gotta, at some point, figure out how to bring in some capital from guys like me that give you a hard time and, don't wanna write checks into every company.
And then you gotta deal with the VCs at some point, and they bring a whole other ball of wax. And then you gotta actually get through the day-to-day of building your B2C business and acquiring customers, or on the B2B side, finding a value chain within the iGaming ecosystem. And then you gotta find [00:21:00] clients, and you gotta sell to them, and you gotta travel to conferences, and you gotta shake hands and kiss babies and go to dinners.
And it's all fun, and it's all what you've signed up for, but it's a lot of work to get to the point where you've got revenue, right? And now you've got some revenue, and then finally you get to some profitability. And throughout all of this, somewhere along the line, you build up a company that's attractive enough that somebody or multiple suitors are interested in acquiring the asset.
It's a hell of a battle to get there, right? So top of mind isn't necessarily what will it feel like on a day-to-day basis within that new ecosystem. Top of mind might be, "Holy shit, I've been doing this this long, and now I've got an exit opportunity, and I can make life-changing money." And that should be the priority, right?
I think naturally, until you get to that point, considering what life would be like post-sale shouldn't be that much of a factor. Like, you're not there yet. Like, you're building. You gotta get there, right? And then when you get there and it feels right and you start looking at it, that's when you start thinking about it.
Should it be [00:22:00] thought about more? Probably. but there's a bigger fish to fry from day one entrepreneurship to selling the company than how are you gonna figure out life after the sale. Like that's, that's a... It's a huge fish to fry, but there's bigger fish to fry along the way.
Leo: How was that for you then, Benji? Because I can imagine for some people it's like an existential, gap that is now there. You know? Like I-my purpose has now gone. The thing that I've spent like so much blood, sweat, and tears on is gone, and so it could be an existential thing. It could be it's maybe refining your purpose. how did that kinda transform for you after that exit?
Benjie: That's a great question, and it's a great question to ask me, ' cause if I give you the honest answer, I don't know that I have. when I sold the company, I stayed on for a couple of years for the earn-out and my commitments to both my employees and to my new employer, and I wanted to live up to that to the maximum that I could, and I feel like I did.
And then it was time to move on from there, and now I'm a free agent, and, you know, what do I want to do? what I really wanted to do was kinda go down [00:23:00] to Miami for a bit and chill on the beach and not think about business as much, and that's kinda what I did. But then the phone begins to ring and, you know, "Hey, can you help me with this?"
Or, "Do you wanna look at that?" And, "Might you want to invest in this project?" And, "Might you want to help with that project?" "Do you want to join the board of this company?" And, in my case, I just began looking at some of these things, and that kinda led me into the path of getting involved with some startup companies and investing in some companies and advising some companies for equity and taking on some consulting gigs.
To be honest, it wasn't very strategic or well thought out, and we're now six years later or seven years later, and it's still kinda what I'm doing, right? I think what an exit looks like and what you do post-exit is different for every entrepreneur. Some are excited to jump back on the horse and start the next project and start their next company, and I think that's fantastic, right?
in my instance, I've just kinda gone with the flow. Like, I work hard, but I don't work as hard as I did when I was grinding, in the Don Best days. and I don't know that I want to go back [00:24:00] to that type of a startup my own, that type of an ecosystem where we're running a company and managing sixty employees or whatever it was, right?
So I don't know that I have a good answer for that question, but that is my answer.
Leo: I love it because it really ties into what you were saying before of, you know, you kinda go in the direction and then you kinda figure it out as it comes along, and that's what happened here in your case as well, right? You get a few calls and you go, "Ah, kinda like this, don't like that, I'll do more of this."
instead of kind of frantically looking for the thing that you're supposed to do, and there is no supposed to. There is just whatever it is that kinda works and you enjoy,
Benjie: I think that there are some individuals who, when they leave one phase of their career, they proactively create the next phase of the career based on a certain set of objectives, right? And in my case, I don't think I've done that. It's not a discredit to myself. It's just being honest, and it's just the reality.
I'm fine with it. Like I love the projects I'm involved in. I think it's great, and it's been great financially, and I think there's some great outcomes around the corner, and I've worked with some great entrepreneurs and made some great friends and overall I [00:25:00] enjoy it. But I do wonder sometimes, what if I were to take a more proactive approach to search for something specific?
I don't even know what that would be, right? So I continue to just go with the flow, assess projects as they come, and, there's no complaints. Life is good, right? So that's kinda where I'm at.
Leo: and do you think it's also a question of just, you know, as we grow older maybe we,we go at a different pace? I mean, obviously we see loads of entrepreneurs who still are still in that intensity. I know for myself for sure, right, as I get older, I've got kids.
Like, I think about, we were talking about conferences, how we could approach conferences differently. Do you think that's kind of an element for you as well?
Benjie: Maybe,
I also think that as you get older, you can work smarter and not harder and/or both, right? So, you know, the learnings of running a company, if you've done one or two or whatever number of exits, you kinda take those skill sets and bring it to the next project. I think that you can get a lot more done today with AI with a lot less.
A- any way you slice it, if you're getting into entrepreneurship and building something, you gotta work your ass off. There's no if, ands, or buts. And, and even in what I do today, it's not [00:26:00] as though I don't work hard. I do, right? But I'm trying to protect my free time and protect the projects that I'm involved in and, you know, just not get too scattered
Leo: you've said publicly that it's all about the founder, andmaybe we can go back to when that was a lesson for you. when was the first time you figured out that it was not about the fancy slides but it was about the, the founder itself?
Benjie: I think I've always known, and most of us know that the founder, you know, if you're investing or advising, the founder is super important. Like, I don't think that doesn't take rocket science to know that. But,
quoted saying it's all about the founder. I guess what I mean by that is it's what is the number one thing when you're looking at a company?
To me, it's the founder or the founding team and how they work together and how that founder approaches business and how that founder sees the world and how I mesh with that founder and how I feel I can add value to that founder, right? And, can't just take a founder in a vacuum and say there's A plus, A minus, B plus, B minus.
It's also how well you are the right fit for that particular founder and that particular project, [00:27:00] right? But just of the belief that the right founder is gonna figure out a path forward, right? And look, when I talk about the wrong founder, I don't wanna throw any of the people that I've worked with under the bus on a personal or a name basis.
I don't think that's right. But certainly, there's founders I've worked with that when the going gets tough, they don't get going, right? And that's the opposite of what I'm looking for. So I don't think I was anywhere near as stringent in terms of founder excellence in two thousand and twenty or two thousand and twenty-one.
And I know I'm not. Like, I'm so stringent in terms of the excellence that I'm looking for in a founder. They just gotta tick almost all the boxes in terms of their level of discipline, their level of enthusiasm, their level of professionalism, the way in which they communicate, the way in which they intend to communicate with the investors, as they go forward, whether things are going well or whether things aren't, right?
And look, I could point to a bunch of founders that do things the right way and that are, are great at it. I don't wanna point at the ones that aren't. but I've certainly had a couple of... Look, you get [00:28:00] involved in enough companies as I have. There's been founders who have been disappointing in the sense that, when the going gets tough, the true mettle of who they are, isn't what needs to be and, the way in which they communicate and, looking out for themselves as opposed to looking out for the stakeholders and the shareholders.
You know, those are things that I'm very cognizant of when I look at projects now.
And listen, you gotta have a few misses to get the hits, right? So I'm not, trying to belittle a founder who fails. you fail, you get back up, you ride the horse again. But there's ways in which you can fail versus ways in which you can succeed and, you know, it's the integrity of the individual, and those are things that I, you know, I'm very, very disciplined in evaluating as I look at, opportunities these days
Leo: Yeah. Well, in fact, the failure is just part of the process, right?
Benjie: Absolutely
Leo: you know, how... When somebody's riding a wave and maybe that's the first time you get in serious conversations with them, how do you do that due diligence? how do you figure out how somebody responds when the going gets tough, that they don't turn on you and turn in what, you know...
How do, how do you, how do you figure that out?
Benjie: Well, there's a couple of things, right? So I'm [00:29:00] much more apt today to invest in a second-time founder than a first-time founder because if I'm evaluating a second-time founder, I can see what the track record is and how they dealt with things the first time around, and I can reference check it, and I can speak to people that were involved in the other project and really get a feel for what type of founder it is.
And for that reason... Look, everyone that is a second-time founder was at some point a first-time founder, right? So it's a little bit unfair to make that statement, and there are first-time founders out there right now who are building incredible companies, and there's, seventeen-year-olds in their garage in their parents' house right now who are going to become entrepreneurs and build companies far beyond what you and I can envision.
So I'm not knocking the first-time founder, but it's easier for me to evaluate the things that you're alluding to when it's a second-time founder and also that second-time founder, has been through the wringer and probably had some sort of an outcome on the first exit or, just understands the processes of building a business a bit better.
so it makes it easier for me to evaluate what type of experience it's [00:30:00] going to be for me as someone who's supporting the journey.
Leo: do you feel founders should do the same thing, that same level of due diligence, if you will, in the relationship with the investor? And if so, how?
Benjie: Yeah, to the extent that they can, they absolutely should. You know, how you choose your investors and how you choose your advisors and how you build your cap table, these things all have massive ramifications down the line as you're building your company. And, you know, look, might be a founder and you're building something and you've been bootstrapping, and it's just difficult to get the money.
And at that point, if someone wants to get involved and the valuation is somewhat reasonable, I don't wanna call it a beggars can't be choosers situation, but it is what it is, right? But if you're a founder that has dotted I's and crossed T's all the way through and are in the fortunate position where you've got to-- are able to kinda choose and pick and choose who the people are that you want to align, then you wanna make those decisions and make them very strategically.
there's nothing wrong with a founder who's got some leverage interviewing the investor alongside the way the investor's interviewing them and making sure it's a two-way fit. It's very [00:31:00] much a two-way street. And listen, if there's a project I wanna get involved in and the founder feels that I'm not the right fit, somebody else is a better fit, I don't belittle that at all.
I think that's fantastic. the founder make that decision and should make that call. And, you know, if you're that founder, you really wanna surround yourself with people that are gonna be additive to your journey and that are gonna maybe disagree with you on things and challenge you on things, but in a way that's constructive.
And that in the big picture scenario, if you're in a rowboat, you're rowing with cohesion, and you're all rowing in the same direction, as opposed to being in a situation where you've given up too much to investors in terms of control and/or you don't have the right fit with the investors that are alongside you, and you're rowing one way and your investor's the other.
That's not a formula for success, or at least not for optimal success.
Leo: Yeah,
Benjie: not fun either, right? you wanna have fun with what you're doing, and it's more fun when everyone's having fun together
Leo: Yeah. Imagine turning up to meetings like that every time. Yeah. Awful. Um,last bit. You said that, CEOs in our industry don't talk enough about, [00:32:00] like, boards and board interactions. What are some of the things maybe that you in general see, you know, that CEOs get wrong about that relationship? You know, what, when it, when it comes to obligations to shareholders, all of that. What, what are some, some of the th- do's and don'ts you feel?
Benjie: Yeah, look, as with building companies, you know, there's no right or wrong when it comes to building your board and how you go about it It also depends if you're a public company or a private company. Like Candy obviously is a public company, and as a board member within a public company, our obligation is to our shareholders.
But I don't think it's that different for a private company. If you're on the board of a private company and, there's investors, the obligation of the board should be to the shareholders and the investors. And for the CEO of a company, it's the same obligation. Like you report to the board if you're a CEO, right?
in most structures, you report to the board. for some of these smaller startups, the CEO is usually on the board, so it's a bit of a different scenario, right? But for bigger companies that have grown, that hire a CEO and that CEO reports into the board, it's an interesting dynamic [00:33:00] because you report to the board and therefore you're looking out for the interests of the board and those shareholders.
But at the same time, you're running a company day-to-day and you've got the interests of all the employees in the company, and you wanna look out, As a leader, you wanna be in their corner, right? So there's a certain duality to it in terms of you report to a board and you're looking out for the interests of shareholders, be it public or private.
And at the same time, you wanna be a soldier that's leading by example with your people, and you wanna run through the walls alongside them and be the first one running through and having your people running behind you. And that requires a level of empathy and a level of, relationship building within the organization and a genuineness in terms of how you look out for their best interests.
And, you know, it's an interesting dynamic and not aneasy tightrope to walk.
Leo: Yeah
Benjie: the great CEOs out there are doing a fantastic job of it. And it's, I have all the respect in the world for CEOs that, can take on that role and that can make that work in the best interests of the organization as a [00:34:00] whole, the shareholders, the stakeholders, while building great careers for people within, their employees
Leo: Yeah, it must be so complex. There's so many relationships to manage like that, right? In that situation as a CEO. It's j- likea big spiderweb, isn't it? Public relationship, board, employees. Difficult.
Benjie: I think it gets more complicated the bigger the company is, right?
Leo: yeah.
Benjie: when you're a smaller company, I think it's a bit less complicated. But I think it's a lesson also for founders and CEOs that you wanna build the discipline of creating structure when you don't need to, right?
Leo: Mm. that structure when it's just you and your business partner and no employees. Start building out the structure, and start thinking in terms of where your company is going to be and how big you wanna get to, and plan for that success in the beginning as opposed to trying to retrofit structure into your organization and policies after the fact.
Benjie: Which is often the case, and it's not the end of the world, it can be done, but you wanna start thinking of those things from the beginning and from the outset. I think that's part of excellence within the journey for founders that are gonna build companies that become pillars [00:35:00] within our industry.
Leo: love it. comment about Kambi, by the way. I, have seen Werner in Marbella at the Power 50. Spoke to him there, and I saw him last week in Lisbon as well, and I'm always so impressed with how present he is. You know, he's not on his phone, he's making notes. And like I said, I think in a CEO position with so many things to manage, I'm always finding that super impressive because most of us would be all over the place trying to manage everything at the same time.
So I think it's super cool.
Benjie: Werner's a rock star. I think that from a Camby perspective, we're very fortunate to have Werner as CEO and, beyond that, he's just a great, great guy and, nothing but great things to say about Werner
Leo: Uh, last question for you, Abenji. if you'd go back to of that time that you were, uh,with the three of you before you, did the actual deal, the knowledge that you have now and, the role that you're in now, what's something that you would advise your younger self?
To do differently or to do better or to maybe not change
Benjie: I don't know that there's that, all that much that I would be changing in terms of the Don Best journey, right? Like, to enjoy the moment and [00:36:00] to enjoy the process and appreciate that time in the... You know, I guess that might be a bit of it, like to just appreciate that, that period of time and not take it for granted.
Appreciate it for what it was, appreciate the journey. I think I did appreciate it back then, but even looking back now more so with the nostalgia and being a little bit older and wiser or less wise perhaps, you know, knowing how much I enjoyed that journey and how much, meaning it has, maybe to just as you're an entrepreneur, to really be able to sit back sometimes and recognize that you're in a moment in time and appreciate what that moment in time is and what it means to you at that time
Leo: Benji, fantastic, episode. Thank you so much for your time.
Benjie: Leo, I gotta say I really enjoyed this. I enjoyed the conversation. I like the way that you go about doing what you do and asking questions and, you know, I think that, bright blue skies ahead for you and everything that you're doing
Leo: you very much, man. appreciate, uh, the chat.Speak to you soon.
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