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We continue our discussion about our experiences at the ISSTD virtual conference. Our medical doctor friend shares what she learned about addiction, emotions, and the drama triangle - and how all of that works to help internal teamwork (even persecutors). We also share the big research we learned about relational trauma being more damaging than even physical or sexual abuse. No details or examples of specific abuses discussed.
Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over:
Speaker 2:Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 2:You those same populations also can have such high addiction rates sometimes. And you went to the addiction session, and I went to a different one that time. Tell us about the addiction session.
Speaker 3:Oh, guys. That was so good. Oh, that was one of my favorite lectures, and it's really cool because I am actually considering working in addiction medicine. I I'm especially now that I'm kind of getting involved in the the whole I'm I'm going down my stumbling my stumbling route here. That that was an amazing lecture.
Speaker 3:So this lecture was done by Melise Melise. Hope I'm pronouncing that name right, e n g l e. And she is apparently a very seasoned woman. I I she sounded like she had tons of experience, and she's been doing this for thirty plus years. She's working in Texas at a some somewhat of a diction based kind of facility.
Speaker 3:I'm probably saying that wrong too, but my again, I don't understand all the linguistics of of these places. I don't have a lot of experience. But she talked about an integrated addiction model, and I loved it. Because I'm you know, she talks about the separation. You know, people tend to to separate.
Speaker 3:There's people with behavioral health and there's people with medical addiction problems, and they keep them very separated. And what she has done in Texas is she has used this new way of looking at addiction and combined the two so that you have people who have addictive processes going on. They have behavioral health processes. And when she did that because of her background in trauma, she was able to connect all of the dots. And it was so awesome.
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness. It was so awesome. I mean, some of this may be simple to you, and I apologize. But your listeners may be thinking, oh, this is like old stuff, but it was new stuff. It was really cool.
Speaker 3:So she talks about addiction, and she defined it differently than I have I mean, I guess on a certain level, I may have known, but I had never really talked and taught it this way. She said that addiction is a pervasive or pervasive pattern of avoiding unresolved pain or uncomfortable feelings. And there was a whole dialogue. It was so cool. There was a whole dialogue between other therapists because we could chat in and and other therapists were putting in their or therapists or doctors, I'm not sure who they were, but they would they would put in chats about how important that language was.
Speaker 3:And they talked about how not everybody views trauma as trauma. And they had this discussion about what trauma was. And when you looked at I mean, she gave this inclusive list. And, I mean, honestly, I feel really dumb, but I didn't even think about some of these things. I mean, they had she had the basics of physical sexual abuse, and I don't mean to to belittle any of these.
Speaker 3:I mean, these all are really horrible. But she put things like, infertility and miscarriage. I mean, that's huge. I've personally had issues with that, and I had not even thought of that as being a trauma. Birth defects, childbearing or parenting, psychiatric issues and hospitalizations over and over again, chronic relapse from an addiction, and then the consequences related to that addiction, learning disabilities.
Speaker 3:I mean and then oh, there was one more that I had not I really I I mean, honestly, I was like, wow. That's pretty cool. Not cool. It's really awful because it's very common. Parental alienation.
Speaker 3:So, like, I've seen this a lot in my practice. You'll have parents come with their children, and they're fighting because they're in the middle of a divorce. And the child, when they come in with one parent, will act one way, and when they come in with the other parent, will act a different way. And so there there was a whole discussion about how that is very traumatic to have two parents that are angry at each other and the fighting that ensues in the child has to take sides and then switch back and forth and how that could be traumatic. And I guess it makes sense on a cognitive level, but I had never connected the dots of how traumatic that could be and how that could cause problems later on.
Speaker 3:So anyway, they had this discussion about what trauma was, and then they discussed why you can't always just ask somebody, have you had trauma in your life? Because if you say the word trauma, people have different things that come to mind. And, they they talked about using words like unresolved pain, uncomfortable sensations, uncomfortable experiences. And because different words can mean different things to different people and that, you know, each of these therapists were talking about how they had different patients that would say, well, no. I've never had any of that happen.
Speaker 3:And then later on down the road, you know, when they they're in the middle of a conversation, they'll be like, oh, yeah. That happened. And they're like, but you said that you never had any type of abuse. And it turns out that this person would had had severe sexual trauma, and they didn't think of it as trauma. You know?
Speaker 3:So that was very educational for me. She talked about pervasive, and I've seen this in in my in my experience that it's a chronic pattern, and a loss of control so that the cognitive like like, I'll have patients, they know they're not supposed to do something. They feel bad that they keep doing it, that they don't have control over it. And, and she discussed how, it's pervasive because that that there's a disassociation between the behavior, the body, and the brain, the mind, the thinking brain, the cognition. And when that happens, you know that's an indicator that if there's dissociation, there's misattunement, there's, a lack of, feedback in the brain.
Speaker 3:And lots of times, not probably every time, but most of the time, that is a sign that there's been trauma because that's trauma does that, which you probably know this stuff. But I was like, wow. That was like a I my brain was like, woah. My light bulbs were going off. I'm like, oh my goodness.
Speaker 3:This happens in my office every day. You know? And then she talked about you could have a patient that will come in, and there's they're they're saying that, you know, they're having a problem with alcoholism. Right? But she says that that diagnosis isn't exclusive.
Speaker 3:And I think on some level, as a clinician, I know that. But I think even I find myself following the diagnosis and not looking for patterns that the patient is showing. And so this lecture has helped me remember to reflect on what am I noticing that that patient is experiencing. And yes, alcohol may be something that they're they're struggling with, but the diagnosis itself isn't exclusive. And there are many other levels that alcoholism is a symptom, not the focus.
Speaker 3:For some reason, I fall into and I and I know I'm not the only one. I think we all fall into a trap of going into following the the diagnosis of schizophrenia. And I'm looking back on patients that I've dealt with in multiple different situations, not just in a clinic, but in the hospital where I now wonder, was that schizophrenia? I mean, that's the diagnosis that was on the chart. But now that I'm I've been educated a little bit and just a tiny little bit because I've only been to one conference.
Speaker 3:I think, wow. I could have missed something. I could have missed signs because I wasn't I wasn't trying to notice the situation. I was just taking that diagnosis that was on the chart.
Speaker 2:I think that's wonderful because your effort at doing this work to learn is going to change so many lives. Like, you keep saying how big it was for you and how much it changed what your understanding was and how you treat people or interact with people in your office or at your work. But all of those people you interact with are real human beings that now their care is going to be completely different because of what you've learned. And I just I almost wanna cry because it's like watching in real time the whole point that we have ISSTD and everything survivors have been asking for. And it's just a beautiful maybe I'm overly emotional especially because right now in real life what's happening protest as well.
Speaker 2:And to me, this is a moment of that for survivors of learning, of seeing someone learn and change and the beautiful healing that comes from that. I think it's so powerful.
Speaker 3:It's it's cool how a conference just going this was supposed to be a CME. I was doing it because I had the interest, but it's cool how a conference, you know, three in three days, my eyes I feel like my eyes open. It's it is powerful. It is it's cool to be part of it. I hope you know, of course, there's there's parts of you know, that part of me that's like, oh, I just I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do it, or what if I miss it again or, you know, whatever.
Speaker 3:You always have those those worries that you're not gonna be the best you can be for your patients, but but at least I'm trying. Right? I'm trying to to be able to meet people where they are. There was something that I wanted to mention. She talked about there was a chart that was amazing, but this chart was it was so cool.
Speaker 3:It tied everything together for me. It is a chart about what how she sees emotions. So it's she called it a spectrum of emotions. Okay? This really stuck with me because this tie this one chart tied my whole thought processes between a medical diagnosis and a psychiatric diagnosis.
Speaker 3:Okay? So on this spectrum of emotions, she put in the mental, she has healthy fluid. Okay? So the healthy fluid emotions, mind body grounded, integrated, and connected. And I wanna be clear.
Speaker 3:This is not integrated as in no part you know, parts disappearing or whatever. Okay? This is integrated, meaning the mind and the body are now connected and working as a team. Right. Okay?
Speaker 3:And so she under that column, she has anger, sad, hurt, pain, vulnerable, happy, guilt, fear, and lonely. Okay? That's amazing. Now yeah. It's pretty cool.
Speaker 3:I mean, it was it she laid it out great. Right? Okay. Now off to the right, she has body behaviors, and this is an unhealthy stuck position. Okay?
Speaker 3:And clarifies this. She says dysfunctional patterns of disconnect through over responding. Okay? And for anger, it turns to rage. So that's an over response.
Speaker 3:Right? Sadness is depression. Hurt pain goes to despair and hopeless. Vulnerable turns into helpless. Happy turns into mania.
Speaker 3:Guilt turns into shame. Fear turns into terror and panic, and loneliness turns into abandonment. Okay?
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3:Isn't that cool?
Speaker 2:I'm going to have to look up this session and watch it.
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness. I wish I could tell you the slide. This is an amazing slide, and she actually goes through it. It is so cool. So so what's really cool is that connected some dots in my mind.
Speaker 3:She explained. And, of course, I understand like, I have some background on the window of tolerance because I've read, you know, like, the body keeps score and stuff. So the window of tolerance, you know that if you go above it, you become hypervigilant. Right? Well, what she's saying is when you are hypervigilant, your anger sadness turns into depression, which is totally different than the way I used to think of it.
Speaker 3:I used to think that if you become hypervigilant, you are depressed. But, actually, she explains that later on on the chart. Like, it's something different. It's it's way different than the way I used to think about it. It is so cool.
Speaker 3:Like, it opened my eyes. If
Speaker 4:if Sasha was here, I would say.
Speaker 5:I think it blew my brains out. That's funny.
Speaker 2:It was so awesome. That's funny.
Speaker 3:So so here's the deal. So psychiatric diagnosis is the next column over. And what she explains is you go from the healthy fluid model where the body and the mind are grounded and integrated and connected. You go to the over responded, disconnected emotion. And then because it's an acting outward, so it's going to the body, it becomes a psychiatric diagnosis.
Speaker 3:And these are not linked to the specific the specific emotions. These are just examples. Okay? But under psychiatric diagnoses, she explains there's depression, eating disorders, anxiety, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, PTSD, dissociative disorders, and process addictions. Wow.
Speaker 3:So these these are ways that people are acting outwards.
Speaker 5:It was so cool. I just
Speaker 3:I I I lost for words of how cool. It just helped me understand how understand how how what how these emotions are very much react directly related to what's going on with the body and how that ties into a diagnosis. Okay. So now we're gonna go back to the center of the chart, and there's healthy fluid mind body integrated and connected. Right?
Speaker 3:Okay. So we have the hang anger, the sadness, the hurt, the pain, etcetera. Right? Now if you move to the left on her chart, you move into an unhealthy stuck position, but this is a mind logic solution. And it's a dysfunctional patterns of disconnect through under responding.
Speaker 3:So it's hypo vigilant. Right? So it's the bottom of the window of tolerance. And every single one of those emotions that are in the healthy fluid integrated, if it turns inward and goes into mind logic, it goes from being anger to numbness, sadness to numbness, hurt pain to numbness. So, basically, all of the emotions disappear.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's pretty cool. I mean, it's bad, but it's cool how she put it. Right? And then when you're acting inward, you go from the unhealthy stuck, but the medical the the diagnosis that results from an unhealthy stuck mind logic pattern of under responding and acting inward turns into a medical diagnosis such as headache and migraines, fibromyalgia, high blood pressure, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, fertility issues, irritable bowel, just as some of them.
Speaker 3:I mean, I actually added my own because I was like, oh, dude. I can see how this all works. Right? Because you're acting inward. All of those emotions are stuffed.
Speaker 3:You become numb, and then the body acts out. Right? Because you're you're sucking it all in, the body shuts down or says no, like in Gabbard Mate's works. I don't even have words. I want to see this.
Speaker 3:It is so awesome. Maybe it might not help others, but it really tie things together that I was never able to understand. I mean, I'm not really, a super emotional I'm not I I don't understand this. Like, this whole conference was really out of my league because I the I understand basic emotions, but I don't I've never been trained in what I don't I haven't been trained in this stuff. And so it was cool to have it laid out in front of my eyes and to be able to see how it ties to diagnoses and what's actually happening and what's really stuck, and how that ties into into trauma.
Speaker 3:The other thing that I wanted to share that was really cool and very helpful to me as a clinician was it was actually discussed in several lectures, but never in the way that Melissa Ingle discussed it. She talked about they called the trauma triangle. Okay? And so and and she talked about how this happens within a person, but this could happen anytime you're dealing with relationships. So have you heard of the about this?
Speaker 2:Yes. But keep going.
Speaker 3:For people who like me who did not has never done this, this was really cool. So you have in any type of set of relationships, whether it's whether it's just a relationship between two people, three people, or a person with their own like, all of us, you know, kinda like internal family systems, all of us have parts. So she talked about that. And I can kinda see that. You know, all of us have different parts that we kind of have to play out in life.
Speaker 3:Well, she says that there's a victim role, a rescuer role, and a persecutor role. Okay? And she says that this is and I and, again, this was in several other lectures. You know, victim is gonna be the person who's hypervigilant because they're trying to protect themselves from a danger or unknown. So, they're going to be in a clinical setting, they're gonna be the one that this stuff happened, and I can't get out of it because this happened to me.
Speaker 3:And there there again, in the medical profession, I would I would say that I would be skeptic, and I'd be like, well, maybe they're just not motivated to change, which is shaming, and I need to change that perspective. That's, you know, why I'm so happy that I got to to learn about this. But they're doing that as a protection because whatever's happened in the past, they feel that they have to protect themselves from letting that happen again. What Melissa Ingle taught in this lecture is that somebody in the business world, and I I feel bad. I don't remember who she she gave credit to this person.
Speaker 3:But somebody in the business world taught her that in business, you can take those people that are playing the victim role or not playing the victim role, but are are living or experiencing the victim role, and you help them work towards becoming a creator. So you say, let's work to find a solution. Let's get creative. And so you can tell that person who's falling into that role move out of it by becoming a creator. And I thought that was really cool as a clinician, I have patients who come in and say, this, this, and this is going on.
Speaker 3:I give up. I can't fight against it. I can't fix this disease. I'm done for. And as a physician or I would say any clinician, you can then say, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Speaker 3:Yes, it sucks. What you're going through, ultimately, it's awful. I don't want to take that away from them. But while we can acknowledge that it really bites to be in your situation right now, let's look at ways that we can just lessen the suffering a little bit. And let's create let's create a way out of this.
Speaker 3:Right? And so I found that so powerful. And then for the rescuer role, she says the person focuses on helping others because they feel helpless. So if they can help others, this gives them a sense of control. And this hit home because I'm in medicine, and I love doing this job.
Speaker 3:Right? I love being in the rescuer mode. And she says she talked about how this is not a helpful thing because it's a way of avoiding when you feel out of control. And it's honestly I I didn't connect this until till just now. But earlier, you know how we were talking about how I think some of my colleagues get in a frustration mode because they can't fix the person.
Speaker 3:So they just want to get rid of the person. I think they're so stuck in that rescuer role that they feel helpless when that, gets taken away from them. So they can't fix the person, so they they kinda act out on that. So she says that if somebody's stuck in the rescuer role, sometimes pulling them back and helping them to become a coach. Because she was talking about if you have someone who's always out rescuing somebody and they can't balance that at all, then they actually can be detrimental to the to the team in a business setting.
Speaker 3:And she bridged this back to how it can be detrimental to a person. So if they're always in a rescuer role, like, say, in their family, they're taking they're taking on a lot of burdens that aren't theirs. They're taking on responsibility that isn't theirs, and, they're not having good boundaries usually. So she says that working with them in becoming a coach. So let's do our part, but keep boundaries because we can't do their work.
Speaker 3:And I see this being helpful because I have so many, and I I'm sure it happens with men, but at least in my practice, it seems like the women are the ones that come in, and they're just they're just struggling because they can't do it all. And I can start helping them by addressing or at least suggesting that maybe we could change it from they have to do it all to they can coach others to do their part. And so I felt I thought that was pretty cool because coaching still allows them to help, but they don't have the responsibility. And they're not they they don't have the accountability. They they're letting that boundary stay as the person's still in their own person, and they're they're they're not responsible for what that other person does.
Speaker 3:So I thought that was really cool. And I think that would be helpful for my colleagues and I to keep in mind that the person has to do their own work. If we prescribe a medication and they don't take it, we can discuss what's going on and coach them and and try to see if there's something else that they can be that can be done. But we don't we don't own the results of their choice. You know?
Speaker 3:We're just coaching. We're not really supposed to be rescuing. Right. So that was very powerful for me personally. And then for the persecutor role, the persecutor person playing the persecutor role will focus on knocking down and destroying others to make themselves look or feel better.
Speaker 3:And so what the business model said was instead of, like, getting on to them about you need to stop doing that is work on them becoming a challenger so that they can help improve the situation or help others become better. So instead of knocking people down, let's lift them up. And, I see in the business model how that would be helpful for an organization, but also in my own patients. I don't really see I mean, honestly, the per persecutor role, don't actually see, as as a physician. I mean, maybe I do, but I just don't recognize it, as much as the other two.
Speaker 3:But at least, you know, I I mean, I could I see this in my own family. I see this, you know, because this this is the stuff that happens in relationships. And so that whole the whole description and how to resolve it was very helpful both professionally and personally for me.
Speaker 2:What did you think about Simone's presentation of the MRIs and that research? It
Speaker 3:was so awesome.
Speaker 2:It was phenomenal, was it?
Speaker 3:It was awesome. Honestly, it would be something that if I were to have to educate my peers, I would, I would definitely look up and become more well versed in the research, so that I could present some of this because you cannot deny the presence of dissociation based on those studies. You just can't. I mean, it's black and white. Right?
Speaker 2:It's such a huge breakthrough to be able to document with the MRIs that DID is a thing, that dissociation is a thing and now even other diagnosis like borderline and different things that they're working on confirming and showing and to be able to have that as a diagnostic tool and as a piece of research and as scientific evidence of what we've all known all this time, but to be able to show it scientifically was just phenomenal.
Speaker 3:It was. I I was taken aback actually. Honestly, I was not expecting after seeing you know, this was in the middle of the conference, I think. And so I had been through a few lectures and went, woah. And this lecture was more like like what I was used to, where it was very scientific and very, you know, straightforward and bullet pointed.
Speaker 3:I think, you know, the struggle I had, there was a struggle with this lecture because I see something so beautiful and so great. And, actually, I know it's not there yet. I know it's I know I'm pre premature in this thinking, but I'm like, well, I wanna use it. I wanna do this. Right?
Speaker 3:And I can't because I look at my situation where I practice and how how insurance kind of rules the world. At least that's the way I feel. Of course, I'm probably playing a victim role there. But I just I just I guess I feel stuck that I don't think we're at the point where we could actually I at at least in my work, I don't think I could order an MRI and and justify it to anybody prove. I want to because I'm thinking, you know, I'd be so curious if I could be like, okay.
Speaker 3:So so I'm going to pretend and dream here for a minute. If I could do anything in I in in the world, what I would do in concerns to this study is I would do a study that would take somebody with a diagnosis of, say, fibromyalgia, pseudoseizures, chronic pain that nobody can really understand, but it doesn't classify as fibromyalgia. Oh gosh. There's so many diagnoses that nobody really completely understands. And I would love to do brain imaging on them because it would tell us so much.
Speaker 3:Right?
Speaker 2:I love I just thought it was so exciting as far as the breakthrough of it. And now that it started, that can become something more in the future and maybe that would even help with some of the fighting with insurance that we do because it is so quick and so simple but it's going to take some time for that to translate across the world and and into insurance for sure. But it it was exciting to see that it was happening. The other big thing that was a part of this conference and let me tell you, I have tried four times, four different episodes, I have tried to talk about this on the podcast. And every time I have said it wrong because it's so big and it's so powerful that it's that difficult for me to actually even say out loud, which obviously reveals a lot about what I'm dealing with myself.
Speaker 2:But the other big piece of this conference was that three different times, three different researchers pointed out and talked about how relational trauma I'm gonna try and say it correctly this time. Even when I interviewed Christine Forner I said it wrong and she corrected me and you can't hear it on the episode because I was still talking and so I want to say it correctly. Relational trauma is more damaging neurologically even than physical or sexual abuse?
Speaker 3:Yes, that was a hard one.
Speaker 2:It is so profound and it explains so many things and for them to show how that impacts all the way to the DNA was incredible. And again, like you said earlier, not at all minimizing physical or sexual abuse. We know those things are bad. But for them to show even at the DNA molecular level that relational trauma has a bigger impact and is worse, is more damaging even than what we know physical and sexual abuse to be blew me away and has changed changed everything about my understanding of myself and my patients and others. Just everything.
Speaker 2:And parenting, my children, oh my goodness. It has changed everything.
Speaker 3:I'm so glad you said that because I I'm not sure because I'm I'm I mean, I thought I was just having issues because I'm not well trained in this area, but I really struggled with that. And I was also aware that that came up multiple times, and it was it was statistics. Like, you saw huge studies that were done. There was a lecture that was done, I think it was, like, the second so this would have been Saturday. It was a lady.
Speaker 3:I don't I'm so sorry. I don't remember her name. But she talked about relation relational trauma. And, actually, you know what? I'm going to look it up because it's it was super important.
Speaker 3:She spoke about, and she actually I actually did I actually put the picture of the DNA epigenetic modification of DNA. I put that on here because it was so cool, but I don't have her name here. So, anyway, she actually had specific information about things that parents do and how that relates to the response of the child. Here it is. Here it is.
Speaker 3:It was Carlin Lyons Ruth. Or do you know which one I'm talking about? Yes. Okay. So this lecture, actually, I struggled with.
Speaker 3:And it wasn't after I looked back on it, the information was similar. Like you said, it was something that I had heard before. But I think what it was is I was very uncomfortable
Speaker 5:because I'm a parent.
Speaker 2:Yes. You know? And started For me, it was triggering in a whole completely different way that I never realized. It was like someone turned the lights on in a room I didn't even know was there. When you go into a conference like this, you're like, okay, self care for I know if we're gonna talk about some abuses mentioned or if abuse examples come up in case studies, I'm kind of braced for that.
Speaker 2:I know it's gonna be unpleasant. Here's my private personal plan for how to deal with this. And then this came out of left field and I was like, wait a minute. What is happening here? It was so much.
Speaker 5:It makes me feel so much better.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness. And and so I'm watching her present this, and I'm like, did she just say that? I cannot it's not even like, oh, we were switching or some big traumatic reaction. It was literally like amnesia. Boom.
Speaker 2:The whole session was gone. What just happened? And so I rewatched it again and it's like highway hypnosis. Like I'm watching the screen and it passes over me again. And three times on the podcast I have tried to just say that sentence, and it couldn't come out correctly because it's so big.
Speaker 2:And I don't know if the DID community understands yet the implications of this because it's so big. How many times have you, me with my patients or you with your patients even just in the medical setting, you've already talked about it. People say, oh no I haven't had trauma because they're like, it's not a Lifetime movie, it was on the news kind of trauma so it doesn't count. And this is relational trauma just in the attachment relationship and it has changed everything we understand about dissociation and that it is attachment disruptions and trauma in attachment and relationships that causes dissociation, not just what kind of trauma happens. Like here are the bad things.
Speaker 2:Those are still bad things. Those are still hurtful. They're terrible. Not at all dismissing or negating any of that, but the dissociation itself happens because of the relationship with the abuser. And then the second piece of that is what you said about parenting.
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh my goodness. I took a screenshot and sent it to the husband, and I was like, stop doing all of these things right now. Yeah.
Speaker 6:I'm so sorry to laugh,
Speaker 1:but I had this same reaction. I'm like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 7:I'm screaming at my kids.
Speaker 2:It seriously has changed everything internally and externally with our children. It has changed everything. Everything. Yeah. And I cannot emphasize this enough.
Speaker 2:We will be talking about it more on the podcast in the future, but it was huge. Absolutely. This conversation will continue in another episode. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2:Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.