The Art of Storytelling with Shaun Cassidy

In Episode 51 of "In the Interim…", Dr. Scott Berry interviews writer, producer, and performer Shaun Cassidy to examine the practical elements of storytelling that matter in scientific and statistical communication. Cassidy draws on his experience in television, music, and live performance—including his role as writer and Executive Producer of New Amsterdam—to present clear parallels between audience engagement in show business and in clinical research. The conversation prioritizes improving narrative precision, emotional resonance, and authenticity when conveying complex topics to varied audiences.

Key Highlights

• Cassidy demonstrates that audiences retain emotional impact over factual content, asserting that “people don’t remember what you say, but how you made them feel.”
• Emphasis on narrative specificity: personal, concrete details foster stronger audience connection than generalized statements, countering assumptions about broad relatability.
• Effective communication relies on reactive delivery—improvised response to audience cues—rather than rigid, memorized scripts; Cassidy notes this principle applies across disciplines.
• Role of authenticity and vulnerability: openly stating discomfort or introversion facilitates greater audience trust and personal connection, especially in technical or scientific fields.
• Anecdotes from Cassidy’s work in television, music, and teaching illustrate the central role of storytelling structure and audience feedback, with parallels drawn to professional scientific presentations.
• Alan Alda’s illustration of improv for scientists is discussed as an example of bridging technical expertise with adaptive communication skills.

For more, visit us at https://www.berryconsultants.com/

Creators and Guests

Host

Scott Berry

President and a Senior Statistical Scientist at Berry Consultants, LLC

What is In the Interim...?

A podcast on statistical science and clinical trials.

Explore the intricacies of Bayesian statistics and adaptive clinical trials. Uncover methods that push beyond conventional paradigms, ushering in data-driven insights that enhance trial outcomes while ensuring safety and efficacy. Join us as we dive into complex medical challenges and regulatory landscapes, offering innovative solutions tailored for pharma pioneers. Featuring expertise from industry leaders, each episode is crafted to provide clarity, foster debate, and challenge mainstream perspectives, ensuring you remain at the forefront of clinical trial excellence.

Judith: Welcome to Berry's In the
Interim podcast, where we explore the

cutting edge of innovative clinical
trial design for the pharmaceutical and

medical industries, and so much more.

Let's dive in.

Scott Berry: All right.

Welcome everybody back to, in the
Interim, I'm your host, Scott Berry.

And for those may be new to,
in the interim, uh, we explore

the world of clinical trial
science, statistical science.

Uh, we, we get in deep to that.

Today's episode may seem
a little bit different.

To that, we're gonna look at a
strange intersection of clinical

trial science and show b.

And we'll come back to what that
intersection means, uh, for that.

But, uh, I'm gonna start by
introducing today's guest

with how I met today's guest.

And I say met in quotes a little bit.

I don't know if he's heard this story, but
my son went off to college freshman year.

My, my fourth son, Cooper, who, uh,
has done one of these podcasts and he's

playing baseball at, uh, Pitzer College.

And of course we're very, very nervous.

He's our, our, our baby is headed off to
college and what's, you know, is he gonna

find friends and, and how this gonna work?

So he meets a, uh, somebody there.

All we know, his name is Caleb
and, uh, very good friend.

Cool guy.

He's on the baseball team.

And so we feel great about that,
that Cooper's got friends, uh, with

that and he tells us about Caleb.

He's from Southern California area.

He is actually from Santa Barbara.

Uh, we spend some time in Santa Barbara.

And he says, interestingly, in hindsight,
he says he plays the guitar and dad,

he, he does really well with the girls.

He tells me, uh, and so we, we find
out about this and then he's home

for Christmas, uh, middle of freshman
year, and we're playing a trivia game.

Which we, we, the Barrys play a lot
of, of board games, trivia games, uh,

a game called Mind the Gap of different
eras, and a trivia question comes up,

which is, what was the name of the
1977 Sean Cassidy, number one hit.

That starts, I met her on a
Monday and my heart stood still.

And my wife Tammy jumps up and starts
singing the song, completely dancing

around and Cooper looks at us and
say, oh, that's my friend Caleb's dad.

And ta we, we look at him like
he's, you know, got seven heads.

What are you, what are you talking about?

He, he's Sean Cassidy's son,
and we didn't believe him.

We end up googling this and turns
out Caleb is, uh, Sean's son

and that is how I met, uh, Sean.

And now we are baseball dads going to the
baseball game and Sean is wearing the, uh.

Pomona, Pitzer, Sage hens
jersey there sporting it.

Uh, wonderful.

So we, we hang around at the baseball
field doing what normal baseball dads do.

So, uh, this might be the first time,
Sean, you've ever been introduced

as Caleb's dad on a media thing.

Shaun Cassidy: I am thrilled to be
introduced as Caleb's dad, and I'm

thrilled to be here with you, Scott.

Thank you for having me.

I think my lifetime, uh,
work, uh, in, in statistics.

Certainly qualifies me to be here.

Scott Berry: Yes, that's right.

Uh, and we're gonna get to this,
the, this intersection, but I

think it's appropriate a little.

Um, this, this intersection of
show business and statistics,

uh, your, your history in show
business is just fascinating.

Um, so tell us a little bit about your
family, your parents, the show business.

Shaun Cassidy: Sure.

Um, my father was Jack Cassidy.

He was a Tony Award winner on Broadway.

and actor Emmy nominee for
his work in television.

Famous for playing villains
on shows like Colombo.

My mother is Shirley Jones Academy
Award winner for a film called

Elmer Gantry, star of three of the
most famous movie musicals ever.

Oklahoma Carousel in the music
man starred in a television series

called The Partridge Family.

With my brother, my half brother, David.

David, uh, had a big, uh, pop star career
as a young guy and as an actor and, uh.

Uh, you know, I, when I was 18, I
signed a recording contract and I ended

up getting a television show called
The Hardy Boys, and my first record

went to number one, and the good news
in my family is that was not unique.

So

I think one of the reasons I'm talking
to you, uh, is because I was able

to survive all that, uh, fairly,
uh, I don't wanna say easily, but

cleanly and, uh, more importantly.

I found my true calling while
working on the Hardy Boys.

Um, I fell in love with the writer's
room and I fell in love with

writing and storytelling, which
is what we're here to talk about.

And, uh, fortunately I
found out I could do it.

So I, uh, I ended up creating a
television show called American

Gothic and on the heels of American
Gothic, I created another show,

and another show, and another show.

And I've been a writer, producer,
consistently in TV till this day.

I just spent five years.

Writing and producing a medical show
called New Amsterdam, talking to a lot

of doctors and nurses, uh, who aren't
necessarily the best communicators.

Uh, getting back to the point of this
podcast, um, but to your Uber point

about the intersection of statistics
and show business, I actually

believe that all businesses now.

Uh, have had to interweave with
show business, um, because so

much of every business involves
sales, involves presentation,

involves good communication skills.

And when I say show business, that
doesn't necessarily mean it's inauthentic.

It doesn't have to be fraudulent.

I just think that you need to be able to
connect with your audience in an emotional

way as well as an intellectual way.

And where a lot of, uh, very smart people,
and I'm including writers in this often

fall down, is they miss that point.

They speak intellectually, they speak
from their head, but I've learned,

I, I'm on tour right now doing a show
that involves music and storytelling.

A lot of storytelling, and it's less
about what you say, but how you say it.

And people don't necessarily
remember what you say, but they

remember how you made them feel.

And that applies to every business.

Scott Berry: Yeah, so
we, we will get to that.

I, I, so Tammy, uh, Cooper and I.

We went to your show,
you're, you're now touring.

And, um, we went to the show
and it was surprisingly good.

Uh, which is sort of a tagline of
the show and it's, it's different

than any other concert I've been to.

It's as much about the history
storytelling, and I'll come back

to this because you, you, you.

Talk a lot about your family.

Uh, you get quite personal in that,
um, which I think adds to the story.

It adds to the authenticity of it.

Um, it, but you also play songs.

You've written songs I've never heard
before, but, um, uh, that aspect of it.

So it's as much a tail.

You know, you took us on a story.

For that, it intermingled
the, the do run, run.

And, uh, uh, that's rock and
roll and, and, and things that

take us back a little bit.

But even that part of it, very
much, you're telling us a story.

And so I I, I go to this and I'm watching,
he says, oh, Sean's a storyteller.

This is what he does.

It's, it's, it's a communicator
more so than somebody who's as,

as you say, wears satin pants
and sings a old seventies song.

Shaun Cassidy: Uh, well, thank you.

That was my goal.

And by the way, you know, my last
concert was at the Astrodome in

1980 for 55,000 people, and I didn't
do another concert until 2020.

I took 40 years off, and I was certain
I would never do another concert

because I didn't want to be that guy.

Trying to replicate the success
I had as a kid, and you know,

we've all seen those guys.

Fortunately, I didn't
have to do that again.

I've had this great career as a
storyteller, and what I finally

realized, because I missed a connection
with the audience, but I didn't know

how to do it again until I realized
that the storytelling was my pass key.

And going out and telling stories feels.

Incredibly authentic to
the life I'm living now.

I'm writing scripts still.

That's still my main job, right?

to go be able to go out and tell
stories and weave the stories into

songs that some people of a certain age
may know other, other people may not.

And our audience is fairly wide in terms
of the demographic, the bulk of the

people who were kids in the seventies
and eighties who bought my records, but

a lot of them bring their own kids now.

Or the Hardy Boys has been on television
like for the last five years on Peacock.

So there's a lot of.

Young people in their twenties
who come looking for Joe Hardy and

they see a guy looks like his dad.

That's fine.

They seem to be okay with

Scott Berry: Yeah.

Shaun Cassidy: Um, but the
storytelling is everything.

And to your point, the show
has a narrative arc, it has

a beginning, middle, and end.

And it's not completely scripted.

I mean, I go off, but I, I couldn't
have done it any other way.

So in a way it is like nothing I've
ever done and it feels like a full

circle 'cause I couldn't do this.

At the Astrodome, they were
screaming at me the whole time and

I could barely hear myself and

hardly say hello.

You know?

Uh, so this is a very different
experience for me and I think it's a very

unexpected experience for the audience.

And I suspect a lot of your audience
probably have no idea who I am because

I was gone so long and that's fine.

Um, but you know, if you go to any of my
social media and they say, what do you do?

It says, writer.

The rest of this stuff is just
part of it, but I'm a writer.

Scott Berry: Hmm.

So it's, uh, it's interesting
that your arc here is.

Uh, but, you know, playing this playing,
uh, uh, music number one hit song,

being a, a, a teen idol, a heartthrob,
whatever you want to describe that.

Um, before that, interestingly, I think,
and, and you tell me you were a magician

and I, I think you told the story that
you did a show for Jenner Jennifer

Aniston's 4-year-old birthday party.

But I imagine you're telling a story
as a magician at the same time.

Shaun Cassidy: Well, that's a,
that is my intro to doing this.

I was a magician doing kids' birthday
parties from like the age of 12 to 15.

And you know, I'd go to the Hollywood
Magic Shop and buy these tricks.

I was not a sleigh of hand guy.

I mean, I could do a little bit with a
quarter, but those people were like real

technicians and extraordinary magicians.

I was basically buying tricks.

That I could read the directions
on and then perform, but a big part

of the directions was the patter.

And they'd come with this sort
of hackneyed patter, which

always felt a little stiff.

Like also aimed probably at a much
older person than I was at the time.

So I'd end up writing my own patter
and I'd kind of read the room.

And depending on the audience,
the audience is four.

That's a specific, you know, kind

Scott Berry: Yeah.

Shaun Cassidy: the audience is 12

different, um.

But that was my training ground to get
up in front of people and actually talk

to them and look for a reaction, and
then respond honestly in the moment as

opposed to, and we've all seen these
people, the salesman that comes in

with their memorized shtick, right?

And this is how, again, often
a lot of people who are really

skilled in one area, but fall down
with their communication field.

That's the way you communicate.

It's, it's a, it's basically bad acting.

You've learned your lines.

And you're saying them in a vacuum
without actually allowing the other

person to react, reading their reaction
and responding honestly and accordingly.

Uh, I've worked with a lot of young actors
over the years and having produced and

written and directed a lot of television
shows, I feel I'm fairly qualified to help

them.

And what I often say is, yeah,
memorize the lines, but don't ever get

close to memorizing a line reading.

Your reading shouldn't
be a reading at all.

It should be an actual response
to what you're hearing, to

what's going on in the moment.

And that's what people need to get
comfortable doing in any business.

Communication And, and I'll give you
a great one, that was a gift to me

from a director when I was a young
actor working, I was working on a

Broadway show and I was very nervous
and this woman who had been an actress,

Geraldine Fitzgerald, had had done
weathering heights with Betty Davis and.

Been in Old Warner Brothers movies and
she was now like 80 and a director.

And she said, your problem is
you're coming out here wanting

something from the audience.

You're not here to get
something from them.

You're here to give them something.

You have a gift for them.

And I said, well, what's the gift you?

I'm the gift.

Yes.

That's it.

If you come in there trying to get
something, their love, their applause,

their attention, their praise.

They're gonna smell the
cologne of desperation on you.

And the cologne of desperation
is something people who are bad

communicators awkwardly often wear
because they want something they want.

And you have a beautiful skillset, right?

You have a lifetime.

You have two generations
of studying your field.

You have a gift.

You're giving it right
now in this podcast.

It's not about what do I get out of this?

It's what do I get to
share from my experience?

Right?

And that rule should apply
to everyone in every field.

Scott Berry: I it and it, it's
so true and it's so interesting.

Within our field, a very mathematical one.

We, we write proofs, we create formulas.

We're, we're doing this.

But it doesn't do any good if you can't
explain to somebody why it matters.

So we're communicating with FDA
regulators, we're communicating

with audiences, technical
audience, less technical audience.

We may be talking to a patient why
a clinical trial, uh, what it means

to them, uh, within that setting.

And so c communicating is
so incredibly important.

And it's interesting because a
lot of what you're describing, we.

I may go to a talk and somebody throws
out everything they know on a topic.

You know, it's a little bit like
what I did on my summer vacation.

It's a bunch of, you know, facts
and things, and there's no.

Why should the audience care?

What does it mean to them?

And it's almost what you described,
what am I providing to them?

And I think it's at the center
of communication and it's what

we, we struggle with at times
because we can always rely on

our formula math, our graph.

Shaun Cassidy: Well, that's probably
how many of you succeeded in school too.

They weren't asking you to
give me an emotional context

to this mathematical problem.

They were.

You were just asked to solve the problem,
and I'm sure you did it brilliantly,

but when you're talking to another
human being, especially one who may not

be schooled at all in your field, the
bridge is some emotional connection.

You talking to a, a client or a patient
about why the statistics on this

particular drug you're testing matter
in terms of actually potentially saving

their life, now they're in right?

That's an emotional reason to listen.

The math is not gonna do it.

Scott Berry: So this, the,
the emotional connection.

Um, I, this, this is a really,
you know, this is a hard thing

for me and it's, it's to do it.

You said something that, by the
way, there's a really nice podcast,

uh, that Shaun does with Keith
Saarloos It's called Chopping It Up.

He talks a lot about his
history, really great stories.

But you said something on there, you said
the more specific you are about your life.

The more it lands on other people.

Shaun Cassidy: So true.

And I learned it doing this
show when I first started I was

talking generally about my family.

I was talking kind of generally about me
thinking wrongly, that if I'm general,

it'll, it'll, uh, land on people.

because if I'm too specific, well
they, you know, they brush their

teeth with Colgate and I use
Pepsodent so how could they relate?

No, they wanna hear that you
brush your teeth with Pepsodent

It actually is the passkey.

The more specific you are,
the more it lands on them.

And it, again, it feels, it, it,
it, it feels counterintuitive

somehow, but it just

is that way.

So I started getting way more
personal with my storytelling.

Very honest, open about everything.

And then people are laughing and
crying and leaving the theater

going, he's talking about me.

He's talking about my life.

That's my father he's talking about.

That's even if the circumstances
are wildly different, even if I'm a

family, I come from a family that's
been in the public eye, irrelevant.

We're all not that unique and
that was a big discovery for me.

Scott Berry: Yeah, so I, I even, uh, so
I, I, it, it would say it's such an ironic

thing that I'm, I'm trying to plan out
the, this podcast and how this sort of

relates to people and how to go is I went
with the story of my family and Cooper

and the interactions of my wife doing
this, and I try to do this on this podcast

in a way to try to make it relatable.

Uh, in a way, and when I was
teaching, I would do the same things

and it, you, you said, people won't
necessarily remember what you said,

but, but how it made them feel.

When I was teaching and I told stories
about my father winning my allowance

in bets and how it taught me lessons
about statistics, I would see them

years later and they would remember
that story in the positive thing.

They didn't remember the.

The statistical idea I was
trying to get across to them.

Uh, but they remembered those parts
and so it's something I try to do.

It's hard, it's really hard for us,
especially in a scientific setting

to do that in a 20 minute talk and
all of that, but it, it was so, it

was so interesting when you provided
that, that aspect to, to you.

Shaun Cassidy: It's a class that someone
should be teaching at all of the colleges

where math or statistics or
science or anything that is on

the surface, purely intellectual.

It's a bridge.

It's such an important bridge.

I, I occasionally guess lecture
at USC and Chapman Universities

in Southern California.

And I speak with aspiring
actors, writers, directors, and.

first thing I say to them
is, what do you want to be?

Or what do you think you are?

And they'll, you know, I'm a
director, I'm an actor, I'm a

thing, I'm a, I said, well, let me
give you my first gift of the day.

Stop saying that about yourself.

Say you're a creative because you don't
know what lane you're gonna land in.

And I'm here to tell you from my own
experience, I've been in a lot of lanes

and if I decided that I was gonna buy into
you are a teen idol, which is what they

called me five minutes into my career.

The lifespan of a teen idol
is about eight seconds.

And if I'm a teen idol and
I'm no longer a teenager and

neither is my audience, I'm done.

So fortunately I didn't buy
that, but I'm saying this to you

because the, the most important
part of when I'm talking to those.

people is not only not branding
themself as a this, which mathematicians

and scientists are very good
at doing, they're very proud

of their doctor, uh, degree.

And, and, and I understand that
and, and rightfully so, but

I'll give you another example.

I, I do a class at USC musicians,
often composers for television often

do not know how to communicate.

With the writer, creators of the show,
and the writers about doing it too.

They're not musicians.

Musicians speak in a
very different language,

Scott Berry: Hmm.

Shaun Cassidy: and the place you can
meet in the middle with a musician and

a screenwriter talking together is how
is the scene supposed to make you feel?

Don't get into how many bars of what
instrument are gonna be underscoring

that moment that will confuse the writer.

Don't let the writer talk
about what the scene is about

intellectually, or what the lines are.

What do you want the scene to feel like?

That's where you can meet in the middle.

So how do you reach your audience?

How you have to connect
with them emotionally?

It's the only way then they'll, they'll
remember the statistics you offer

them because you set them in a context
where they're not gonna be bored.

And I even people I, I mean
you, this is your business,

not mine, but I would imagine.

Statisticians get bored talking
to other statisticians unless

they're engaging storytellers.

Scott Berry: Yes, yes, for sure.

Uh, it, it, it's a huge
part, uh, uh, of that.

The, um, you, you described this,
uh, the, the writers, some of them

are quite, um, uh, introverted.

And it, and it's interesting that aspect.

I mean, we can discuss what's an
introvert, what's an extrovert?

You're, I, I think you're
a card carrying introvert.

Uh, I,

Shaun Cassidy: am.

I'm I, I pretend to be an extrovert.

I've learned how to do it.

I do a very good extrovert impersonation,
but I need to, when I've been out doing

this in any form, I'm talking about
at a cocktail party or on the stage or

anywhere I need to go back to my office
and take a deep breath and be by myself.

That's how I recharge.

My wife is the opposite.

She charges from the party.

She loves the connection
to the people outward.

Uh, I'm the opposite.

And most writers are that way.

And as a result, most writers are
not good verbal communicators.

They're not good salespeople.

And one of the parts of very
important part of selling a

television show, you gotta go out
there and PT Barnum your work.

So they pay you to go and sit in a room
quietly for a month and write that script.

And that hurdle is, is
sometimes insurmountable for

a lot of very good writers.

They just, you know, they spent their high
school years not going to the football

games and, uh, dating the prettiest girls.

They were in the corner watching
and observing and thinking

and maybe writing stuff down.

Scott Berry: Yeah, it's, yeah, it's,
it's so interesting and it, it seems.

Um, uh, almost contradictory to people.

So I can, when I can create a talk,
I can go talk to in front of 500

people and I can present something
and I, I have no anxiety about that.

Um, I don't know if it's that I
can control it or I that, but then

if I sit down for dinner with two
people afterwards for an hour.

That's stressful for me.

I'm anxious about that.

That's hard for me.

And it's, it's a different
sort of skillset where my

wife is the same as your wife.

She, she loves that, uh, kind of thing.

She loves that part of it where

Shaun Cassidy: do you think
that anxiety comes from in you?

Scott Berry: Um, I, I, I.

And maybe a little bit of insecurity, um,
that when I'm having a discussion with

somebody, uh, that I'm not interesting
in, in part of that, that I, I, I, I don't

know how to have the right conversation.

So actually by my crutch in this, I have.

I have three brothers and one of
them is quite extroverted and is

really good in that situation.

He's funny, tells good stories.

He's the, the life of the party.

I'm never the life of the
party, but I try to play him.

I, I try to, I try to beat Tim,
uh, you know, sort of thing.

Now, I don't wanna, uh, I don't want to
jump the shark or I, I don't want to be

a, a jerk in that I want to be authentic
to who I am, but I try to try to do that.

And it's a little bit,
uh, it's interesting.

Statisticians can sit and be
silent and nobody's uncomfortable,

uh, in that at dinner.

That's an uncomfortable thing.

Silence.

Shaun Cassidy: It is funny that you use
the word authentic, and that's where I

have a problem too, because I often feel.

If I'm at a cocktail party and
people are doing the small talk,

I feel inauthentic doing it.

I feel like I'm acting and my
wife gets on me when I don't do it

because she says, you're being rude.

Why am I being rude?

'cause I'm being quiet.

Yes, because you're being quiet.

It makes people uncomfortable.

Okay, so I have to go and
role play and I can do it.

I have been an actor.

I can do it.

But it feels like, what am I taking away?

So when I meet someone like you and I
was that guy next to you at a dinner

when we first met, I was
fascinated by what you do.

I don't meet a lot of statisticians.

I don't want to hear
about your next pilot.

I can meet a hundred other guys that

can tell me that story.

I was fascinated, interesting world, a
world I'm not a part of, but I'm also

interested how does it affect my world?

are statisticians who judge
whether a television show

might be successful or not.

I know it goes through that process.

Um, it so, you know, and what
is the profit potential of this

television show and how much money
I'm in a business to make money.

Uh, so it's not why I do it, but it's
why the people who buy my scripts do.

Scott Berry: Yeah, I, I, on the, on
the Chopping It Up podcast you talked

about, um, where they show they, they
present the show to 10 people and

they tell that they say what they
think and your, your views on that.

Were not necessarily positive.

That's not what we do is.

Statisticians, but yes, I'm
sure statisticians do that.

Shaun Cassidy: Uh, understood and
I didn't, wasn't comparing the

two.

Those people are literally.

Off the street, come have a free pizza.

We're gonna give you a dial.

You watch the show and when you like
something, you turn the dial up.

When you don't like something, you turn
the dial down and FYI, uh, Seinfeld was

one of the lowest testing shows in history

Scott Berry: Wow.

Shaun Cassidy: and one of the biggest

Scott Berry: Yes, yes.

Okay, so now I, I spend a lot of time,
and maybe that's partially why I'm

comfortable getting in front of 500 people
is because I've spent a lot of time,

I've thought of what's my story, and, and
I, I, I love that you said this is not.

This is not, you know, I'm not
bullshitting people that, that's

not what I mean by story, but why
should you care in the audience

about what I'm gonna present?

And if I can set that up, first of all,
if I can make myself authentic talking

about my family, I think that that,
that, that's sort of a huge part of it.

And as once somebody once
told me, they said, remember.

Everybody in the audience
wants you to succeed.

They're spending their time on this.

They want you to succeed.

So they'll give you sort, sort of leave.

I'm creating this story.

So tell me about the, this creative
process where you are, you've got a

new idea for a show, uh, and I know
you, you, you ask lots of people

about things and you're looking for
these stories and all of that, but

then how do you create the tale?

You're going to tell and how
much do you mix in setting it up?

You know, how do you create your story?

Shaun Cassidy: You have to
bring the your audience in.

If that audience is one or that audience
is a thousand people, it doesn't matter.

It's why does this story matter to you?

The person I'm talking to, my show
by example is called The Road To Us.

It's not called the Road to me because
I want the show to resonate with the

audiences, uh, and be about them as much
as it is about me and my family, our

connection, this connection, when I go
into sell a television show, now it's

the, it's again what I learned as an
actor and what I learned auditioning.

Young actors often go in and they're
desperate and they're hungry and they

need the job and everybody in the
room, these producers who are often

way less comfortable than the actor,
'cause they didn't become actors.

They're, you know, people who sit behind
a desk and often can't communicate

all that well, but they're in there
judging the actor, and if they smell

the cologne of desperation on the actor,
they don't want that person around.

But if you go into that room.

Not wanting anything but a pleasurable
experience in the room right now.

Not trying to get the job, just have a
great half an hour or 20 minutes with

a person and you're interested in them.

How was your day?

And that's a superficial question,
but what do we have in common?

What's our common commonality?

And I say this to my audience, you know,
in such a divided time where politics

and religion and all kinds of stuff.

Have divided us so
dramatically in the country.

I would argue that that is 90, that that
is 2% of 98% of what we have in common.

And I say to the audience, I
don't care about your politics.

I don't whatever church
you go to, great for you.

And if you don't go, that's fine too.

I care about the shared humanity.

I care about the shared experience
of this evening, and I shared I

care about what we have in common,
which is 98% of everything I think.

That is what's so important when
you're addressing the audience.

Here we are together.

Here's an experience
that I bet you've had.

That I've had.

Oh, you have a father too?

Hey, me too.

Hey, my, my mother did this.

Yours too.

Wow.

Look at us now.

They're not talking to
someone, talking at them.

They're talking to a friend
or even like a family member.

Right.

And we're in this journey together.

This is our story.

I have nothing to sell you.

Best salesman in the world come with
nothing to sell you, and they end

up selling you all kinds of things.

Scott Berry: Yeah.

Shaun Cassidy: And again, I
don't think that's disingenuous.

You know, I, I think when you own
who you are and you, you can say,

look, I'm not good talking to people.

I'm a statistician.

That was not how I was trained.

Own it.

Vulnerability, self-deprecation.

You win every time.

I make jokes about myself
all through my show

Scott Berry: Hmm.

Shaun Cassidy: and people
are rooting for you.

They want you to succeed.

Scott Berry: Hmm.

I.

Shaun Cassidy: Sell me something.

Scott Berry: I was, I, I, I was able
to, at your show here that we went to in

Austin, you did a, uh, meet, I don't wanna
call a meet and greet, but you, you had

a certain number of VIPs that came in.

Um, and so we were a part of that
where you get asked questions and

you, you people are, are interested
in, you know, the 1977, Sean Cassidy,

your family, all kinds of things.

And I thought that that was actually.

Uh, I, I, and, and now I'm putting
thoughts in, in, uh, uh, about you,

but I thought you loved that actually.

It, it seemed like that was something,
because now you're getting feedback from

people, but a lot of the same things
you're saying, you were authentic in that

you responded to the questions, you were,
you had some humility to the responses.

It it for everybody that was
in that I'll bet they enjoyed

the show afterwards even more.

I did.

'cause now I know things about you.

And now all of a sudden this, this
new song you've written, uh, my

first crush meant more, uh, to me
from knowing a little bit of that

it, it, it made the story better.

It, I enjoyed it better and yeah, I'm
ready to, to to, to buy more things.

I'm ready to buy wine
from your my first crush.

Wine Wine Club.

Shaun Cassidy: Well, I'm glad.

I love that part of the show and
it's not part of the show, but it's

a warmup for the show and I was
reluctant to do it the traditional.

This, by the way, this is
all new since I was touring.

'cause there's no such thing
as a meet and greet in 1980.

Um, and when I first started going
out again, I did these meet and greets

where they, you meet people before
the show and it's like, you know,

it's like a line to see Santa Claus
and they come up, you take a fast

picture, shake their hand next, next.

And it felt, frankly,
quite impersonal to me.

And I didn't like the way it made me feel.

People got their picture.

But, so I suggested, why don't we do.

Like the VIP meet and greet,
but it's a q and a half an hour,

45 minutes before the show.

And then we take little mini group
pictures and so they get a picture.

But more importantly, they actually
get a real connection, which is

what we're talking about here.

They get to know me, I get
to know them a little bit.

I am now way warmed up for the show 'cause
I'm now half the audience will, not half,

but you know, a quarter of the audience
I've already met and they're there and.

We're all in this together.

So I think it's actually a win-win, win.

And I am also smart 'cause I get asked
things that I'm not necessarily asked, you

know, and, and the woman who sets up does
the, sort of, gets them into their seats.

She says, don't be shy.

Ask him challenging question.

Don't ask him about his favorite color,

or, you know, his favorite food.

Uh, and they, and they do.

And it's, it's great.

Um.

It's a high wire.

'cause sometimes I get asked
stuff that's wildly personal

and I don't shy away from it.

Scott Berry: Hmm.

Shaun Cassidy: I go and
they, they're grateful.

Scott Berry: Hmm.

Uh, that the, uh, is this tied to
something else you said on the podcast

I listened to and I, I'm interested in
how this is part of the communication.

You said the shows you
write are all about family.

What does that mean?

Shaun Cassidy: Well, Norman Lear,
who created All In the Family

and many other hit shows famously
said every show is about family.

Star Trek is about family.

They may not be blood, but Kirk and Spock
are brothers, and I didn't know it when

I first started writing, but everything
I've written has been about my family.

It's about what I've learned
in my family and how we inter

relate and react to one another.

And you change the names, you change the
circumstances, but this communication

thing, the model of it, for better
or for worse, is born in our family.

Scott Berry: Hmm.

Shaun Cassidy: Around the kitchen table.

And

unfortunately, a lot of people
come from a dysfunctional

Scott Berry: Hmm.

Shaun Cassidy: and that doesn't
necessarily help them when

they're out in the world.

Um, so, you know, this is a very
broad generalization, but I kind of

feel we get two lives if we're lucky.

We get the life we're born into
and we get the life we make.

And the life we make is ultimately
the really important one because we're

taking the good and the bad from our
childhood and hopefully running with

the good and putting the, the, the
bad to bed and then making choices

that are our own, not necessarily
Dad insisted you be a statistician.

So I am a statistician.

Look, I know so many lawyers
whose fathers were lawyers.

They went to law school,
they became lawyers.

They hated being a lawyer,
and now they're whatever.

To a certain extent that's true of me.

I wasn't pushed into show business.

My family in fact, didn't want me.

My parents didn't want me

in show business, but it's all I knew.

And you know, everybody's a plumber.

You go into plumbing and then you
find out if you really like plumbing.

And I went into plumbing and
I was a successful plumber,

but I didn't love plumbing.

So

I found my.

There were no writers in my family.

My father revered writers.

He, his closest friends were writers.

I mean that, he really admired that, and
obviously that went into me somewhere.

Oh, writers are cool.

They make up stuff and
they get paid to do it.

Scott Berry: Hmm.

Shaun Cassidy: Seems
like a pretty good job.

Scott Berry: Hmm.

You, you, you touched on a, a, a bit
back, the, the interaction with people and

understanding the audience a little bit.

Uh, interestingly, somebody
who does spend a bit of time

with scientists teaching them
communication is Alan Alda, uh, and I,

Shaun Cassidy: You talked about
him in a podcast I listened

to of yours.

Scott Berry: Yep.

So he spent, and he's written
books about this and all this.

He suggests that scientists do improv.

And it's kind of an interesting
thing and I, I went to my company,

so we have about 30 scientists here
at Barry, and I said, for our annual

retreat, we're gonna do improv.

And I almost had 30
people quit immediately.

Shaun Cassidy: I bet.

Scott Berry: Yeah.

Sort of thing.

So it's an interesting thing and you
almost sort of did that, that the,

and I think the notion of improv
is understanding your audience

and the interaction of that, and
you're presenting something, uh,

and thinking about that immediately
as a way to improve communication.

Uh, a good thing, bad thing.

Shaun Cassidy: I think it's
an extraordinary thing.

I think everyone should do it.

I mean it, what it does is it
connects you with the inner child.

That's what we did as kids.

It's play.

Right?

And someone in your field, I would
imagine, uh, one of the reasons

I asked you, why do you feel
uncomfortable in one-on-one at dinner?

I would imagine so much of your
professional life has been about getting

it right, getting the right answer.

Don't be wrong.

Well, when you're in just sort of
general communication with people,

maybe you're gonna look foolish.

Maybe you're gonna say the wrong thing.

That's so counter to what you've
been taught on the professional

field, right?

What I've learned, there's no
wrong when you get that, there's,

I'll just go further than that.

There's no failure.

Here's the failure.

Not trying only failure.

Going out there, I'm perfectly capable now
and comfortable even going out and making

an ass of myself on the stage because if
they're laughing at me, 'cause I fall down

or I say something stupid, I'll laugh too.

And not only that, they'll feel
closer to me for the experience

because, oh, I was just human.

Guess what?

I'm not this thing, this, you
know, Elvis entity, a human being.

Who can fall down and be stupid.

And that's endearing.

People like that, they root for you.

So, you know, I, the first thing I
would say to dinner party if I were

you is say, look, I'm a statistician.

I'm not the most comfortable in social
situations, so please forgive me.

Everybody at the table's gonna wanna

talk to you all night

Scott Berry: Yeah.

' Shaun Cassidy: cause they're
not gonna feel judged by you,

even though you may be smarter than
most of the people at the table.

Scott Berry: Uh, it's interesting because
I do have my wife that harasses me as

well, that, that, um, if I'm quiet.

She gets on me for that,
almost like I'm judging people

or that, that kind of thing.

And, uh, but it's hard.

It, it, it's hard for me to, to, to sort
of be vocal, to be, to, to, to do that.

It's something I work on.

I, I continually work on that.

Shaun Cassidy: Why do you think
your brother's good at it?

Because he's in the same field, right?

Scott Berry: He's in the same field and,
and maybe you've touched on this a little

bit of the, the, the sort of fear of
being wrong, kind, kind of aspect of it.

I do think there's a part of it of
having a connection with a person.

I, I really struggle when I get taken to
a cocktail party with my wife and I know

nobody and I will never see them again.

That, getting that connection with that
person and asking them real questions.

Uh, I try to do that of my kids.

I try to do that.

I I try to ask them questions
they've never been asked for,

just partly, you know, to get off
script and, and to do, that's hard

to do that at a cocktail party.

It's, how's the weather?

How are the Dodgers?

You, you know, sort of thing.

And that's, it's superficial, uh, uh,

Shaun Cassidy: And I'm doubt
at it too, as I said, and I

often deliberately don't do it.

It's, I, it's kind of a test
though, like if you're talking

superficially and then you say.

You know, how did your father treat
you when you were young or whatever?

Scott Berry: yeah,

Shaun Cassidy: People either
lean in because, wow, you

just asked me something that

really matters to me, and now,
okay, you've passed the test.

We actually can have a relationship
now 'cause I know I can talk to

you about stuff that matters and
we don't need to keep doing this.

How's the weather

business?

Right?

If they look at me like
Offput, then I know, well, that

relationship ain't going anywhere.

Scott Berry: Yeah.

Yeah.

I, it, it's interesting the description
of, of actors who are reading a

script or memorizing a script.

When I go to a talk and a statistician's
presenting, a clinician's presenting and

they read the bullets on their slides,
and it's, it, it, it's re very rehearsed.

It's rarely good.

Um, there are people that are
uniquely can do that and, and they

can accentuate the right parts
and it's, it's, it's really good.

But usually it's, it's dry, it's boring.

I can see the slide.

It, it, it's that, it's the,
um, uh, it's a little, it, it's

being able to do it without that.

And I've had to do that a couple times at,
uh, public advisory committee meetings.

I have seven minutes.

It's perfectly timed.

They don't want me taking
eight and I've had to do it.

I'm terrible at it.

Um, because I feel like I'm, uh,
I, I'm doing a different skill set.

I'm not actually thinking
about what I'm saying.

I'm not trying to provide
context to the audience.

I, I'm, I'm memorizing something.

Shaun Cassidy: Well, you know,
when I first put my show together

and I said I wanna do stories,
I wrote all these stories down.

'cause again, that's my job.

I write every day.

And then I started saying them
out loud and it sounded writerly.

It didn't sound real.

So I threw all that out and I put
up, you know, pulled up the tape

recorder and just started talking.

And that sounded conversational and real.

And then I wrote it all
down and I memorized it.

And I don't know how much of my show felt
like it was memorized to you, but the goal

is for all of it to feel like this is a
story I'm gonna tell, but I'm just telling

it to you off the cuff from memory.

Not scripted, even though
much of the show is scripted.

But I give myself the freedom to
veer off and people say things

at me and I'll run with that.

But I'll get back to the point, you
know, the songs end up being kind

of the intro and outro to the story.

And often the, the story is
setting up the song, or the

song is commenting on the story.

But the real art, I guess, is memorizing
everything and then forgetting what

you've memorized and feeling the force

trusting that you have enough.

Information in there.

That's how I pitch shows now.

I'll write out my pitch.

I write it down 'cause these are
the facts that are important.

I want to get that out there.

And I'll read it and read it and
listen to it often record it.

'cause I remember things better
orally than I do this way.

And then I leave the script at home and
I just go in and talk and I, oh, a lot of

that stuff I wrote down is coming out, but
it's coming out conversationally and it's

coming out honestly in a reactive way.

And maybe I don't get all the facts
out that would seem so important to

me in the room.

But what is more important is that
I'm doing this with the listener

Scott Berry: mm.

Shaun Cassidy: as opposed to coming in
and saying, this is my television show.

It's about, people are already
like, what am I doing for lunch?

They're gone.

Scott Berry: Yeah.

Yeah.

That's fascinating.

And this podcast has actually been
just a completely different thing

for me because every presentation
I've ever GI given for 30 years, I

have slides, I have a crutch, I have
figures, I have graphs, I have formulas,

and it sometimes that takes over.

As, oh, what am I supposed to say next?

But on the podcast, I,
I do the same thing.

I have sort of an outline of all of
this, and I then I try to forget it.

Uh, and all of that.

It's, it, it's almost like improv.

This, this sort of feels like

Shaun Cassidy: Well, it's conversation.

Scott Berry: yeah,

Shaun Cassidy: I'm saying something
and you're responding as opposed

to, oh, I have to do my note now.

Scott Berry: yeah.

Right,

Shaun Cassidy: You know,

like.

Scott Berry: And so I have another
audience in one week from today.

I have to give a toast
of my son at a wedding.

He's getting married, and so now
I, I am a little bit nervous of

this and I don't want to have notes
and I don't want to read them.

Uh, but I need a, I need a
script to follow and I need to

sort of play what's my story?

What's the point to this?

So it's amazing how it, it, I mean, it.

Interaction with everybody in life seems
to be this part of it, and part of being

an introvert is I spend a huge amount
of time thinking about it ahead of time.

My extroverted wife just jumps in
there and starts talking and knows

it's gonna end up in a good place.

And she's comfortable with that.

Yeah.

Up.

Shaun Cassidy: Yeah,
well, I'm in the middle.

I do what you do.

I, I do the research.

I'm doing a speech at a wedding
for my brother-in-law very soon,

and I, and the key word
to get rid of is speech.

I'm not doing a speech, I'm just
gonna get up and talk about what

he means to me and what his wife

means, and, and, but I'll have
thought a lot about it beforehand

and written stuff down beforehand.

It might even have cards in my
pocket that I look at before I get

up and then seem like I'm just Mr.

Conversation,

Scott Berry: Mm.

Shaun Cassidy: I'm just
making this up on the fly.

Scott Berry: Now when you do, I'm,
I'm sort of curious, this aspect,

when you're doing New Amsterdam,
um, and you've written a script.

Are the actors fully saying every
word that's in the script, or is this

guidelines and it, it, it's, it's
some ad lib during the course of it.

Shaun Cassidy: Um, for the
most part, I like the actors to

adhere to the script because.

I and the writing staff have
spent many, many hours of our

lives, uh, meticulously crafting
these words and these moments.

That said, if you have Robin Williams
in your cast, or someone who's

extraordinary at improv, you do both.

You let them do it as scripted,
and then you say, okay, you do one

for you let's see what happens.

And if they can beat the
writing staff, great, we'll take

Scott Berry: Hmm

Shaun Cassidy: Um, but.

Most actors aren't as good
as Robin Williams at doing

that.

So, you

know, and also it affects the other
actors that then you're getting into

improv in the scene and the other actor
has to be able to hit the ball back.

And if you're giving them the
wrong cue, they're gonna be at C.

So following the script is
important and then veering from it.

Or like in rehearsal, sometimes on
the set, they'll come in with the

scene that's written and they'll say,
Hey, could I say this here instead?

Or Can I invert this?

And.

Yeah, it sounds good.

And again, I'm more oral.

I hear scenes better than I read them,
so having it play on its feet with

good actors is really helpful for me.

Scott Berry: Uh, and it sounds a little
bit like where you went back and you

talked about the, the songwriters is
this is the mood I'm trying to get.

This is the message.

And if the actor knows that and it, it
stays with that, presumably that that's

a positive thing, but they also have
this skillset, I imagine, of a rehearsed

line being presented in a way that
doesn't feel rehearsed, that most of

Shaun Cassidy: actors don't.

the best actors don't
memorize line readings.

They just memorize the words

Scott Berry: Huh?

Shaun Cassidy: they can be in the moment,
in the scene and respond honestly.

Uh, if they have memorized
the lines with a line reading

attached, it's gonna feel totally

absurd, uh, as a reaction
to what's being given them.

You

know, uh, one of the, uh.

One of the other great things I, I
learned just watching actors is that

I can labor on a beautiful monologue
for like, you know, hours, write this

perfectly written monologue, and the
actor does it, but often they can

just do a look and they know what
the scene's about with that look.

That says everything that big
monologue said in a much more eloquent

way, brevity is the soul of witch,

Scott Berry: Hmm.

Shaun Cassidy: Less
words is always better.

Um, Aaron Sorkin a
great, uh, screenwriter.

I think it applies to
conversation too, by the way.

Um, and here I am going on and on,

but, uh, Aaron Sorkin tellingly.

If you read an Aaron Sorkin script,
he hardly ever has a character

ask a question because that's
sort of cheap and it's easy.

It's like, give me the information I need.

So I'll feed you a question.

How's the weather?

Well, let me tell you about the weather.

He writes ins, staccato, period
ending sentences almost all the

time, and it's much sharper.

Dialogue.

Statement, statement, statement,
statement, statement, monologue,

breath statements, musical,

right?

And I'm musical.

So dialogue matters To me, the
rhythm of a line is as important

as the content of the line.

And again, it's going back full
circle to what we're talking about.

How you say something

Scott Berry: Mm-hmm.

Shaun Cassidy: is almost as
important as what you're saying.

Maybe more.

Scott Berry: Yeah.

And comes back to this whole, how
do they feel receiving what you

Shaun Cassidy: How do they feel?

Scott Berry: Yeah.

Wow.

Fantastic.

So, uh, thank you for
joining us scientists.

Uh, it's incredibly valuable for us and.

Uh, something we, we, we keep striving
for here is to communicate the

fabulous things we're doing here.

Um, for, for the audience out
there, go to sean cassidy.com

and see if you can catch one of the shows.

I highly recommend it.

Go to the podcast, chopping it up, and,
and listen great stories about Sean

Cassidy, uh, in Walt Disney's office.

Um, you can hear that story.

A great story.

So Sean, very much appreciate this,
uh, uh, really, really cool stuff.

Shaun Cassidy: Much appreciated.

I, I, uh, I'm thrilled you're doing this.

I think it's, it's awesome.

Yeah.

Uh, say hello to all of the, the
doctors and statisticians out there.

Scott Berry: yeah.

Shaun Cassidy: Oh, here, I'll
give you one little parting shot.

Uh, I went to see a new doctor recently,
just a, a general practitioner,

and the first thing he said to me
when I walked in the office after

Hello, was, tell me your story.

Not how do you feel?

What's hurting you?

What?

Tell me your story.

Scott Berry: Wow.

Shaun Cassidy: dude.

That's fantastic.

And I said, that's the, I've never
heard a doctor say that to me before.

He said, well, we're learning.

He said, your story will inform
your health in a big way.

How can I treat you for your
health if I don't know your story?

That's a good one.

Scott Berry: Uh, so, so the question
is, how long did it take you to

tell the Shaun Cassidy story?

Shaun Cassidy: Well, I told
an abbreviated version, but.

I just, I, uh, really what I
said was, I'm thrilled you asked.

Scott Berry: Yeah,

yeah,

Shaun Cassidy: so

Scott Berry: yeah.

Shaun Cassidy: me yours.

I'll tell you mine.

Scott Berry: Hmm.

Awesome, awesome.

And.

Y Yes.

Uh, thank you for joining us here
until the, everybody else, to

the next time we will be here.

Uh, in the interim,