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Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, and most importantly, find joy.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our
audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do here,
please give it a thumbs up,
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It really, really helps
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To find out about our certification
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books, and other courses,
please go to rupertisaacson.com.
So now let's jump in.
Welcome back.
I've got David Litchman here.
If you are somebody who has been involved
around the sort of natural horsemanship
world over the last ooh, few decades you
have almost certainly come across David
Litchman either by name or in person.
His work with horses sort of precedes him,
so I don't want to put words in his mouth.
Let's just say he, he's helped blaze
the trail for looking at how we work,
all of us as horse people in a more
compassionate, more cooperative way.
And a lot of things that we take for
granted now, I think in the horse world,
were things he couldn't take for granted
back when David was getting going.
And we owe a sort of bit of a debt
of gratitude to people like him for
having sort of shifted the paradigm.
So I'm not going to, yeah, I'm
gonna let David tell us about
what he does and how he's done it.
So seat belts on.
This is gonna be a good ride.
David, thank you for coming
on the show and tell us who
are you and what do you do?
David Lichman: Oh boy.
Well, first of all, I'm
a greater admirer of you.
Rupert Isaacson: That's kind.
David Lichman: And you know, when I when
I read your book I was just absolutely
blown away because I'd had experiences
with autistic kids in, in equine
therapy at the barn where I was working.
Every Thursday or something, they would
do something and I saw this kid who was
non-communicative and they put him on
the back of a horse and immediately he
started to look around and they would
toss him a ball and he could catch it.
And they got him doing stuff
like picking out the horse's feet
and doing stuff with the horse.
And they reported back after a couple
of weeks, he, if somebody came to their
house he would grab a screwdriver and
pick up their feet and pick up the
Rupert Isaacson: Really?
David Lichman: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: That's beautiful.
David Lichman: You know, so
reading your book I'm, I'm not,
I admit I'm not much of a reader.
My reader, my wife reads like the book
week and my sister used to read a book
a day, but I'm not much of a reader.
But I read your book and I was
really, really impressed, not only
with the content, but with the
imagery, the way that you described.
The feelings around what was going
on was really, really moving to me.
And when I saw the movie that you made
after that I realized that, you know,
you, you don't get all that behind
the scenes thinking that you can,
you put it in the book because you
just say, here's what was happening.
But you don't, you don't, in the
movie, you just see what's happening.
You don't get the thoughts inside.
So I missed that, but what I didn't
realize was how intense the, the
screaming and the, you know, just the,
the emotions going on that, that didn't,
that came through much clearer when
you could actually hear it and see it
Rupert Isaacson: when you
had to suffer along with us.
Yes.
David Lichman: Yeah.
Yeah.
So the, so the, you know, and the brown
alerts, and I mean this, the whole
thing for me was the combination of
the two was eye-opening experience.
And then of course, you know, years later
having met Rowan was was remarkable.
It's remarkable.
He must be in his twenties now.
Rupert Isaacson: He is 25 now.
Yeah.
And he's doing great.
He he spends his time
between Texas and Europe.
He, this is sort of how he's doing.
He sold his house last year.
He has his own car.
He has a couple of
volunteer jobs that he does.
He helps me a lot with trainings
explaining autism from the inside really.
And helping guide parents in.
How to approach their kids and what
it's like to go from that kind of,
he just, he describes it as a fog,
this nonverbal fog into this greater
clarity of cognition and how this
can play out, how this can happen.
So he's very articulate
this way and he still rides.
You know, so whenever he's with
me, he's, I've got a horse for him
and he, he he gets up and he rides.
So it's,
when I look at him, you know, there,
there was this, there was this day, I
remember when he was at his most severe
and I had this really irrational thought,
but I, I had this picture of coming to
an airport and being picked up by this
handsome young man, handsome, confident
young man getting in his car and sort
of driving off and that being my son.
And I had this vi, this vision clear
as day when he was at the height of
his, you know, most severe autism.
And I remember thinking,
that is so unrealistic, but
I wanna go in that direction.
Well, about 2021, I flew into Austin,
Texas and Rowan is there and he picks
me up in his car and we, we walk out
to the carpark where he is parked and.
He's carrying my bag and he throws my bag
in the boot and he hops in the driver's
seat and I hop in the passenger seat
and I realize, oh my God, it happened.
It happened.
Wow.
I, I remember I'd forgotten that vision
that I had, so it made me realize, yes,
you must always hold onto those visions.
And so that, that's where he's at.
And it's been quite a long road obviously.
But yeah, so, and you, so for the
viewers and the listeners to this,
'cause this will be on YouTube as well
as on the sort of podcast platforms.
David Litchman, rip very, very kindly
came and did a fundraiser clinic and
demo for us back in Texas back in 2012.
I think.
It really kind of helped put us on the
map a little bit because David was a,
a bit of a celeb and we were kind of
unknown and it gave us a shot in the arm.
So I was always very
grateful for that, David.
Yeah,
David Lichman: you're most welcome.
It was more for me than for you actually.
It was really great.
Rupert Isaacson: So listen tell
us about your career with horses.
How did it start?
Why did it start?
Why have you taken the particular
approach that you have?
And where has it led you?
David Lichman: Yeah, that's okay.
But three hours.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Guess.
David Lichman: I think this is every,
everything starts from inside, I think.
And you know, from, from the first
memories I have, there were horses.
Not on television basically mostly, but if
there was a pony ride at a fair or a trail
ride, when we went camping, I was there.
I was in a thousand percent.
Rupert Isaacson: And where was
this, where did, where were you?
David Lichman: I was, I
grew up in New England.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: Which part of,
I, I grew up north of Boston,
Marblehead, Massachusetts.
I, I recollect now that there were
I had seen hoof prints on the sand.
The beach was very close to our
house, and I had seen that, but
I had never seen any horses.
And and fast forward years later,
when I did the tour that I ended
up in Texas was my last stop.
I, the, my original goal for that
tour was to take my horses all the
way to that beach and put their
ho prints stand there, like the
prodigal sun returning or something.
And it, and it was a, it
was a tremendous journey.
I mean, in the second stop, one
of my horses kicked the other one
in the head and broke his skull.
And
Rupert Isaacson: a Yeah, yeah,
David Lichman: yeah.
I mean, it was just fractured.
He, he didn't have any, they were
gonna, you know, open him up and pull
all stuff out and, and I said, what.
You know, does he need that?
And they said, no, but
it'll be, he'll have a dent.
I said, thank you.
I'm fine with the dent.
You don't have to open him up.
You know, so he had a superhero
mask that he had to wear and, you
know, he did cameos on the, on the
tour stop Crazy for two tour stops.
And then he was back, interestingly
enough that the very next stop
we were, when he came out of the
hospital the horse that kicked him,
he, I had to keep him in a stall.
'cause they didn't want him running
around and creating a lot of air movement.
And, and he had his head out of
the stall and the horse that kicked
him in the head was outside the
stall with his head in there.
And they were grooming
each other and it's like,
Rupert Isaacson: oh,
David Lichman: this is really,
really something special.
But anyway, so the, we, we ended up
getting to put those footprints on the
beach and, and and we made a video with
a guy by the name of Rob Foley, who
was a veteran, who was on the verge of
killing himself, who was saved by horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
David Lichman: And he met
me on the beach there.
That was not planned.
My plan was just make the hook prints,
make a nice little pic, pretty picture.
And it was, that was also moving.
I had, I put him up on a horse and
and he and I, 'cause I thought he
had been riding and, and he was
a, he's a what do you call it?
A Navy Seal.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
David Lichman: You know that
he's gonna get on this horse.
It's no big deal.
Right?
And, and he wa he is, he was not.
He was, he had, you know, brain damage.
He was lost his balance.
And, and I got him on the horse
and I had him just, you know, put
his head back and his eyes closed.
And I have photographs of this.
It's so moving to me.
This thing that I had not planned at all.
He just called me outta the blue
and said, oh, you know, I saw
your video of horses on the beach.
I'd love to do that someday.
Where are you?
I'm in Maine.
Okay, can you be there in September?
So all these fascinating things happened
on this tour that were not by design.
And then right before I came to
Texas, I was in Tennessee doing
a benefit for kids in school who
did, there was not enough money for
their, you know, school supplies.
And the teachers were digging
in their own pockets to come up.
So I said, well, we can raise money
for these kids in the school and,
and we go to to Tennessee to do this.
And I said, oh, the kid's gonna
come to the show in the evening.
Oh, they can't go.
Most of their parents don't have cars.
I said, well, why don't we get a bus?
Let's in a bus, bring 'em.
I want them to see this.
And they, no, you need
hand, we need permission.
And the bus has to be reserved
three months in advance, and
then you have to hire a driver.
It's all that stuff.
So I said, okay, well why don't we just
do a little show for them at the school?
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, that's cool.
Yeah.
Great
David Lichman: idea.
So we go over there in the afternoon,
my son and I, and we set up on
the, like a playground area, and
I don't, playground grass is like
tough and the ground is super hard.
And I set up a little round pen and,
and and, and they were supposed to bring
up class by class, you know, for five
minutes, 10 minutes to look at the horses.
And they decided to bring all the
kids from kindergarten to sixth grade.
So I, you know, I'm trying to
find something that'll work for
them and keep their interests.
But the, mostly the younger ones
were only interested in the fact
that the horse pooped, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.
Naturally.
David Lichman: So I pick up the poop
in my hand and I say, you know, why
is this poop different than your poop?
You know, why is it that,
you know, this doesn't stink?
And, you know, you know, course he grass,
I'm trying to, so I was not, but I was not
making a great impression with this, this
group of, there were 600 kids, by the way.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: Around this tiny round pen.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: So I said to my son, go get
the balloon set up for the bow and arrow.
Shoot.
I'm gonna do a bear bag and bri list
bow and arrow balloon shoot for these
guys that'll, that'll impress 'em.
My son's going, this is a bad idea.
You know, arrow with
all these kids around.
I said, no, there's, there's one,
there's only one kid over by where
the target will be, who was a a
severely handicapped kid in a wagon.
And they, I said, just roll the
wagon around the other side.
It would be fine.
It'd be fine.
And it was fine.
I, I did the, you know, put
the music on and shut the look.
Great if everybody cheered.
And then my dismount is, I throw a
leg up over the neck and slide down.
This is, you know, we've been
warned, don't do this, but it's
the coolest way to get off.
And it's, it's the easiest way actually.
But I didn't realize in Tennessee it
was like 95 degrees, 95% humidity.
My pants had got so much sweat
that my, I went like this.
My leg didn't come.
And I went, I landed on
my arm and broke to ribs.
Hi.
So when I was
Rupert Isaacson: one, 600 kids.
Oh yeah.
David Lichman: When I was at your
event, I had two broken ribs.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh man.
You were stoic.
Okay.
Well, I had no idea that you
were suffering like that when
you came and did the gig for us.
And
David Lichman: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You were,
you know, that was heroic.
But listen let's get back.
Yeah.
So to you and your, yeah, so I take it you
didn't come from a horsey family, right?
David Lichman: No.
Right.
So, you, we started back in Marblehead
with the f footprints in the sand.
And then I, you know, any chance I had,
I would go, go to horses in junior high.
Why,
Rupert Isaacson: where was
this coming from, do you think?
Was there some genetic, did you have
like some great aunt or someone who was
David Lichman: No.
Well, back
Rupert Isaacson: in the
David Lichman: family, I can tell
you that my, my great grandfather in
Germany was retraining military horses
to pull plows for farmers in the, you
know, the end of the 19th century.
Okay.
So I, I only found this out later.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So that is a genetic line for you.
David Lichman: It's genetic.
Yes.
And also I think we share the
same name, actually, I think
is, I'm named after that.
But so, you know, that's the,
you know, the physical piece,
I, the emotional piece, I don't,
it, it's, it's in, it's inside.
The minute I saw the Lone Ranger, you know
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: Io Silverstein,
it was just, it grabbed me.
Years later I went to the the
Navajo Nation with my friend George
Hardeen, who is like great grand
nephew of the, of Houdini, the
Great Harden or something like that.
Okay.
He was running the newspaper for
the Navajo Nation, and he introduced
me to a guy by the name of Nevy
who was the, the, the healer leader
of the Navajo Nation at the time.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Guy, what, what, what year is this?
When are we,
David Lichman: oh, that had
to have been the nineties.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: And here's this guy,
and he's, you know, he's, he's bent
over like a question mark, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: You know, and then we find
out he started over like 3000 horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?
David Lichman: And and George says, you
know, would you like to have a blessing?
I said, yeah, you know, they have
some corn pollen, I think and mm-hmm.
Things that they're doing.
And I said, yeah.
And he said, well, he wants to talk to
you before he'll give you a blessing.
He said, okay.
He asked me, he says, horses, huh?
I said, yeah, why?
Oh boy.
I said, well, I think it's something
inside me that I could not ignore.
I had to, I, I could not, I had to
pay attention to this feeling inside
that the horses brought to me.
And he looked at me and he went, good.
Then he, we did the blessing
ceremony with the corn pollen and
off we went riding in the desert.
So it's in there, and
I, I can't explain that.
You know, pat Perelli, you mentioned him.
He, you know, he makes light of it.
He said, there's horse people and there's
people, there's the other kind, right?
Mm-hmm.
This is part of his pattern.
But, but it's true.
I think it's in there and you
can't, you can't let it go.
I think if you do let it go, it'll
come back and you'll, it'll, it'll
bounce on you with some point.
You'll see one.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It'll, it'll, it'll, it'll, yeah.
Surface.
David Lichman: It
Rupert Isaacson: doesn't let you go.
Yeah.
But, okay.
So you, you, you, you
were enamored of horses.
How did you get involved in
becoming a professional horseman?
What was the
David Lichman: Well, there's a very
long path, which I won't bore you
with the whole thing, but I took some
riding lessons when, when I found out
in college that you, instead of doing
pe you could do horseback riding.
So I went up to Gloucester, Massachusetts,
took these riding lessons, and
they made me post without stirrups
and I couldn't walk for two weeks.
And, you know, it's like,
Rupert Isaacson: almost stop.
Yeah.
David Lichman: You know, here, here's
a horse, you know, you're gonna
just jump him over this little jump.
And the horse would refuse and
cry was over on the other side.
He said, this, this is not so much
fun, but but beat doing PE in college.
So
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
David Lichman: I did that
and went to a couple of horse
camps, you know, but Really,
Rupert Isaacson: and what was
stunning at college, out of interest?
David Lichman: I studied, at that
time I was in computer science,
and then I switched to music.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: And then I, I went
to for a short time, I went to
Berkeley College of Music, which
is now a very famous jazz school.
Yeah.
And then and then I, after three semesters
in there, I, I hit the road and I
traveled playing music for a dozen years.
And I ended up in California.
And then in California I I got I
got a degree, I finished a degree
in computer science while I was
playing music to support myself.
And I got married to a veterinarian.
And all of a sudden the, the we, we
had with this thing dink, remember
this thing, dink dual income, no kids.
And we looked at each other and I said,
you know, I always wanted to have a horse.
And she goes, me too.
And we hadn't even discussed this.
Rupert Isaacson: How old
were you at this time?
David Lichman: 30.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: 30 ish.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: And and so we got our first
horses and we really didn't know anything.
I was trying to, and this
Rupert Isaacson: was out in California?
David Lichman: Yeah.
Where I was in Sacramento.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: I was trying
to remember, you know, like,
how do you, how do you clean?
I got had this horse
and I had a hoof pick.
And how do you clean it?
I was trying to remember,
oh, we hold it this way.
And, you know, I was trying to, all this
memories were not coming back so quickly,
but, you know, we had horses and we
started doing stuff with horses and and
I, I was working as a contractor for IBM,
and I found myself staring at the pictures
of the horses on the wall of my cubicle
more than I was looking at the screen and
I said, I gotta do something different.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: And at the time I had,
I had won a World Grand Championship
in Tennessee with my horse and
Rupert Isaacson: doing what?
David Lichman: It's just pleasure class,
you know, it was a Tennessee Western
Rupert Isaacson: pleasure,
David Lichman: English pleasure, I think.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: English.
I love how they call these things world.
And then they, they happen
in like these parts of the us
David Lichman: Well there aren't
many Tennessee walking and horses
in other parts of the world.
There are now, but there weren't then.
Yes.
But yeah, it was a big deal.
17,000 people.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
David Lichman: 17,000 people
watching me go around.
Rupert Isaacson: But hold, see that's a
big, that's a big jump to go from saying,
well, you know, my wife and I want to get,
get a horse and then of course, and then
boom, I'm winning this big competition.
David Lichman: Well it was, you know,
it was like eight years of, you know,
we start with the little shows and I'm
skipping all this stuff because it, you
Rupert Isaacson: know,
and why Tennessee Walkers?
David Lichman: Well,
that's a good question.
So I remembered when I was a kid at one
of these two week riding camps, they
had a horse there that was so smooth.
And, and what I know now is it was
just really smooth Western jog.
It was like just so much fun to ride
and tip off into a loop and whatnot.
So we went looking for that,
and I found this one Arabian,
believe it or not, who had that.
Okay.
And I said, well, this
is, I gotta have it.
And my wife took one look at
it was gray and he had massive
melanomas under his tail and she
says, you're not buying this horse.
I said, so people started telling me
when I said I can't find another one
that I didn't know to look for Quarter
horses that were Western pleasure horse.
I didn't know.
So, somebody said, you, you want
Smooth Drive Tennessee Walken horse.
So.
Then we got hooked with that and
I, I, I wrote a book and made
some videos about how to train
walking horses in a natural way.
Because it, the tendency in the
industry has been the opposite
and, and quite cruel in some cases.
So I, again,
Rupert Isaacson: that's a big jump
to say, oh, and then I, I wrote
a book and don't end up writing a
book and getting a book published
unless you are good and people come.
I self You're good.
David Lichman: I self-published.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Alright.
David Lichman: Yeah, I
mean, I sold a lot of them.
What I found was that especially,
so I'd already been doing some
pelli with horses at this point.
Okay, so
Rupert Isaacson: you found, found
the Pelli method at that point?
David Lichman: Yeah.
I mean, we could talk about
that some let's back up to that.
So, we'll, okay.
As I as I was watching horses and
learning about horses during this
period of eight years, I went to
the state fair and I saw Ray Hunt.
Mm-hmm.
And at the state fair in
California four o'clock in the
afternoon, they did a cold start.
It's like 106 degrees in August.
And, and they gave him 30 minutes to
get on a un started cold and Right.
They did 18 days in a
row, 18 different Colts.
So I watching Ray Hunt and he and
I, and sitting in a group of tour,
you know, normal citizens, they
not horse people, most of them just
watching this guy, and here, here
he, I'm watching him and he goes.
Pretty quick hair.
He is gonna, you're gonna see
him flick his ear over here
towards me or pretty quick hair.
He is gonna flick that fly off
his leg or something, you know?
And all of a sudden, you know,
in two minutes there was, is
following around like a puppy dog.
And I'm going, nobody sees the
miracle that's going on here.
You know, all the wrestling
people are doing with horses.
This is unbelievable.
So, and he, I, I don't know.
Did you ever get a chance to meet him?
No,
Rupert Isaacson: never did, never did.
David Lichman: I mean, he's, he was an
ornery old co I mean, he, they always
Rupert Isaacson: are these people.
Yeah.
David Lichman: But, but he had a love
for these horses and he was, he was
pretty well crippled at this point.
So day one, he started that horse.
Day two, he started the next horse from
the horse that he started the day before.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: Okay.
This is the kind of miracle worker he was.
Anyway, I watched him for 18 days and
then the next year I came back and
Pat Perelli was doing the demo and he
had actually, you know, I was already
trying the stuff I'd seen Ray Hunt do,
but Pat had like, you know, systematic
way of, of helping you to find these.
And then, so then I started,
you know, with that.
And when I won the World Grand
Championship, I then and I, and I said,
okay, I'm not gonna do IBM anymore.
I started teaching people how
to get better results with their
walking horses because mm-hmm.
I had a name in that field and I
found out they couldn't lead their
horses, they couldn't tie their horses,
they couldn't saddle their horses.
So I said, you guys need
a foundational element.
And I started teaching what Pat
was offering, and I called him one
day and I said, you know, I'm, you
know, I'm selling a lot of your
Hals and sticks and books and stuff.
What do I have to do to
get this stuff wholesale?
He said, become an instructor for me.
Mm-hmm.
I said,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
David Lichman: So that's
how that journey came about.
And so the idea of when, when I
started bringing this information to
the walking horse people, it was like
bringing water to the desert, right?
They were so thirsty for this.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting
David Lichman: that, that it
became very you know, satisfying.
I didn't, I didn't have to.
I didn't, I, I didn't
have to think too hard.
I, I knew what they
needed and they wanted it.
It's like, it's always can be the case.
I know what you need
and you don't want it.
I, how do I get you to want it?
You know, this is a motivation question.
And now I'm into marketing and Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: This, this was
like, bring water to the desert.
So, so we did this I did this for
many years and then I started moving
away from just the gated horses and
started my passion for Liberty Horses.
Okay.
Which was the other piece of the
inspiration from back in Boston, we used
to go to the Ringling Brothers Circus.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: So the Liberty
horses there, and I was
just fascinated with that.
Also in Boston Garden, I saw Ky.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: He was
the head rider of the
Rupert Isaacson: Spanish riding School
David Lichman: engineer.
Is that him on the
Rupert Isaacson: wall behind you?
David Lichman: No, but it is
the Spanish riding school.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And he good eye.
So, they had flown the horses from
Vienna and the, and all the riders, I
assume I have the program here somewhere.
And, and, you know, KLM was, they show the
horses getting on these big airplanes to
come and they hung a couple of chandeliers
over the, the ice hockey rink, basically.
Where In, in Boston Garden.
And they did a show there that just, you
know, oh my God, the horses are dancing
and they're so elegant and rhythmic and
everything was so phenomenal about these.
And I, I did not, you know, go that
dressage path, but it was in my head.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
David Lichman: this thing was possible.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: And, and many, many years
later, I, I started working with Joanna
Mendel Shaw dancing with horses, and I had
a horse that would do PF and Pass, and,
and we, I was able to do stuff with her.
And, and so some of that was, was
starting to, to come to fruition.
And then even more recently, I
started hanging on with Ben Brand
who has taken this, this whole
idea of lightness to a whole,
Rupert Isaacson: you guys
can have a mustache off.
David Lichman: Yes.
He does.
The he does the, he does this thing.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But, you know, I mean,
David Lichman: well, I, this is,
this for me is like, somebody asked
me why the mustache, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: ah,
David Lichman: I could tell
you a dirty story about this,
Rupert Isaacson: please.
David Lichman: I don't know if you
want to hear the dirties story.
Maybe the, the, the clean story is,
is it, you know, circus ringmaster.
This is, is my, my sort of persona thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you always
have that mustache or did that
come in with your horse thing?
David Lichman: Mm, before.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Well, yeah, I
David Lichman: didn't curl,
I didn't curl it until later.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
I just wanted tell not everyone who's
listening or watching will know who
bent brander appears, and some people
will, but he is the, sort of leading
light in what you would call the
northern Baroque system of dressage.
He's Danish and very
well known in that field.
Lots of books, lots of sort of training
methodologies, et cetera, but sort of
training in the manner of, say, the
17th century Northern Baroque way and
doing it very elegantly and very well.
So that's who Ben Brandup is.
He's quite a celeb in the, in the,
that end of the dressage world.
Yeah.
David Lichman: Yeah.
He, he calls it academic art of writing.
Indeed, he coin that phrase.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: And he's
Rupert Isaacson: well, he nicked that
phrase from the, from the old masters
who called it that, but yes, but or
let's say he, he has revived revived it.
Exactly.
David Lichman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He also revived the the knighthood.
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
David Lichman: And he has this, you know,
he's very pompous, you know, and so he
has this, you know, this knighthood and
you pass these night levels and stuff.
And, and, but he says in the beginning,
I, I, I lifted this from Nuno Olive
Oliveira, him and his buddies used to
have this organization night, and you had
to pass these tests in order to be able
to, you know, to keep up with each other.
And he said, you know, nobody can do
those, those are impossible tests.
So I decided to make
one that was accessible.
So I, I, I think everything he
does is as admirable in that way.
But what I love about him is he's,
he tells me that he's more of a
historian than he is a horse trainer.
And he has studied every single master
all the way from Sapone up to current.
And he has tested each of those methods
on horses and found which methods
were for which horses, which not.
And so he arrived at this place where,
where he, he thinks that, that he has
he, he has, he has gathered the best
of all of them for, you know, for the
ways to approach different horses.
And now he has these instructors
that have, have taken it and are
doing you know, them Christopher
Dahlgren and Marius Schneider.
Rupert Isaacson: Marius Schneider, yes.
Well, I, yeah, I, I do indeed.
And I haven't met them,
but I'm aware of them.
I'm aware of their great work.
Yes.
David Lichman: Right.
So what, you know, whereas he was, he
would, you know, all along he was pretty
strict and strong about you know, it has
to be done this way and this and that.
He, since he's incorporated them as
instructors, they have these instructor
meetings where it's all brainstorming
and Christopher will say, I think you
should do, maybe we should try this.
And he says, great, try it.
Lemme know how it works.
So they, it's, he's more he's
soliciting stuff, new stuff from these
guys that are in the field doing it.
And who are brilliant by the way.
Those guys are so brilliant.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
They're.
David Lichman: So anyway, so I don't
know how we got into Ben Brandup
Rupert Isaacson: mustache.
Well, interestingly, Ben Brandup
is very much a European thing, and
you're very much an American base.
So how does that marry up?
You're, you're doing,
you're doing the stuff
David Lichman: you, you're asking
program, you're asking me, you're
asking me questions that, that that
have miles of trails we could go, so,
Rupert Isaacson: okay, well that's
David Lichman: the,
Rupert Isaacson: isn't it?
David Lichman: Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess I don't know if, we'll, I know
if we'll get back to the brand up story
and the circus inspiration of the circus
horses to deliberate, but I'll, I'll
just, I'll close that chapter by saying
that he also worked in the circus bank.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: And he has got that,
that, that showman kind of an attitude.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: To, to, to carry on.
Which
Rupert Isaacson: circus did he work in?
David Lichman: He was in Germany,
but I don't know which one.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
There are
David Lichman: some
Rupert Isaacson: very good ones there.
David Lichman: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So let's go to the European thing.
So I grew up in, you know, well,
we had a, a Jewish household.
My grandparents barely
smoked book English.
They spoke Yiddish.
My grandmother came over on
the Lucita before it sunk.
And she came over two years
after my grandfather did.
He had to come and work on a farm to raise
enough money to call, get, send her over.
And at that time, she had a 2-year-old
baby that they had to, to say, was, was
a suckling infants for free passage.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: And so, I was
able to, to look up the, the,
the what do they call those?
The manifest ships manifests?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: There's a whole
organization at Ellis Island
and I, I found all their
records of when they came in.
Fascinating stuff.
So
Rupert Isaacson: when did they come in?
What year?
David Lichman: 1905 and seven.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: Those, and my, my
other grandparents on the other
side also came, I had to kind of
search research for them also.
So, we have this Jewish household
in, in Marblehead, Massachusetts.
And my sister was, and my aunt, so my
father's sister, who's also had the same,
the same parents as my grandparents that
came over fascinated with languages.
She taught Spanish,
Latin, Hebrew, and French.
She was a language teacher, and my
sister got that, and my sister was
learning all these languages and
fascinated with foreign culture.
And we always had foreign exchange
students at the house, so they address
Rupert Isaacson: me.
What did parents do?
What, what did they do for a living?
David Lichman: My, my mom was
a, a, a a stay-at-home mom, and
my dad was a chemical engineer.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: You know, side
note, side note, he worked for
Board and Chemical Corporation.
When they.
He invented the Borden's Elmer's
glue, all the white stuff.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: That came from my dad.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Never did.
David Lichman: So, so we had, you know,
you know, we had those, you know, people
from India and they would dress me up
in Asari and, and and we had people
from from Germany and from Spain.
And I had castanets and, and the,
the, the foreign culture was rampant.
And also my, my folks were
square dancers and folk dancers.
So New England Square dancing, not
quite like the stuff down in Texas.
But it is still call and and do
formations according to a called pattern.
And then they would do contra
dances, which were more the Celtic.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: And then and then.
Greek Macedonian, Turkish.
So the culture, the culture
started to flow in, into the dance.
So you were
Rupert Isaacson: exposed to all
kinds of cosmopolitan stuff.
Yeah.
David Lichman: Yeah.
And, and my sister when she retired from
teaching, she started writing books.
And the first book she wrote was
European Cultures, manners and
Traditions explained for Americans.
And basically she says to take
the, you know, the, the idiot
buffoon Americans stop them from
making full paws in business.
So, like she said, don't, you
know, don't talk business to the
Italians until you've had food.
You know, or don't be the
first one to bring up money.
You know, you wait, even if it
takes two days, you wait, don't be,
you know, she would have all these
cultural things that she would Yeah.
She had explored.
And then she went on to write a series
of five books about the Asia and
South America and, and and all these,
these, these cultural awareness books.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
David Lichman: And then, and I, I'll
never forget, there was she wrote
one, the one she wrote in Japan
was sh she would interview people.
She didn't necessarily go, but
she would, her best source was.
Foreign people who lived in America.
Mm-hmm.
Because they saw the cultural
differences firsthand.
They ran smack into 'em
like a truck, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: So she would interview
them and say, you know, what's different?
How can I help Americans not to
be so crass when they go over?
And so she talked to this guy
Shiga Teta, I remember his name.
He, he married a friend of hers.
And she, she, she would gave
her the stuff for the book.
And it says, when you, when you go to
the somebody's house, you present a,
a, a gift, and they will take the gift
and they will not open it because they
don't wanna embarrass you in case you
couldn't afford a, you know, a nice gift.
They, they, they would accept
graciously the gift and they
would put it away in another room.
So it was great.
So she puts this in the book, and
then years later she goes to Japan
and she goes to visit sheik's brother.
And she brings him the gift and presents
it to him, and he takes it, gets it open.
Wow.
Look at this.
And she goes, she came
home and she was furious.
She called up.
She, she, and she said, you gave
me wrong information for the book.
He grabbed a thing, he
didn't put it aside.
He said, oh, that's my brother.
He is an asshole.
That's funny.
Anyway, so there's a, there's, there's
a lot of European culture in my life.
Okay.
And I got to go to Germany and
visit the the, the town where
my, my grandparents grew up,
Rupert Isaacson: which is what.
David Lichman: Nun via in, in Baden-Baden.
Rupert Isaacson: Baden-Baden.
Okay.
David Lichman: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, and and we had to, you
know, the first time it was very
interesting because the Jewish
cemetery was not that well marked.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: And we, we, we
managed to find it and it was locked.
We had to climb the fence to get in.
And I found the gravestones and I, the,
after the war, the government had restored
the gravestones that had been desecrated.
So my great grandfather had a new plaque
and a new stone there, but there were only
two Jewish families and they, and they,
you know, all the, all the gravestones
had that name or the other name.
It was Haifu.
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
it's interesting too.
I mean, I'm, I'm half Jewish and I
know from experience that Jews are
not often found in the horse world.
And in fact, the horse world has been
a, you know, a famously and historically
antisemitic environment because
it, you know, for various reasons.
I have to laugh.
So you, you went in as a, as a
Jewish boy latecomer with a lot of
passion, obviously a lot of talent,
and then, you know, quickly went pro.
Did you encounter much antisemitism, even
if it was unconscious, anti-Semitism?
David Lichman: No.
Rupert Isaacson: On your path?
David Lichman: Well, I
encountered a lot of anti-Semitism
when I went to prep school.
'cause I was flunking outta high
school and they sent me to a
Protestant school and I, there was a.
Eye-opening experience.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: There it was uncomfortable.
I didn't like it.
But then we talked our way into the,
'cause there were three of us, they
had three token Jews in the school,
and we talked our way into having
Friday night religious services.
Okay.
In the crypt, in the basement of the
church, and they let us have wine.
Right.
But yeah, very important
to have wine on Shabbas.
Yeah.
Very important candles and wine.
Right.
But, but yeah, no, it, it, it's funny
you bring up this thing because I, I
was flying home from a clinic once,
and I'm sitting in the airplane
and there's woman sitting next to
me and a guy sitting next to her.
And I look, you know, she has the
ticket stub sticking out of her, out
of the seat pocket in front of her.
I see.
It's Debbie be LaMi you know,
ton light hands horsemanship?
Rupert Isaacson: No, no, no.
Okay.
David Lichman: Okay.
Well, they're, they're pretty, they, he
started a thing called cowboy dressage.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: So he's, he's the
guy and he, he's from up here.
So we happen to be on the same
plane coming to, I had never met
him, but I look over there and I
I see that, you know, I'm sitting.
So I started up a conversation
and you know Sure.
Where the book I'm reading,
which is probably yours.
That's may have been.
And we started talking and she, she
looks at me and she says, you know, I
don't know how many Jewish cowboys there
are in the world, but here I am sitting
right between probably the only two.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's funny.
But there you are.
You know, you find yourself in that world.
You start being successful in that world,
and now you're a, you become a Pelli
instructor and you, but you have your own
gig and you're doing the liberty stuff.
Talk us through how it goes from there
to, and, and, and sort of bring us up to
where you are now, and then we can talk
a bit more generally about where you're
going and you know, what, how things have
David Lichman: Well, well, I had an
epiphany around the, the Liberty stuff.
One of, one of the things that
happened was my sister had given
me tickets to go to the circus,
a big Apple circus in, in Boston.
And I, and I saw this woman the
start of the big Apple circus was
fa lights out smoke fog machine.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: Six gray Arabian
horses milling around and, you know,
interacting with each other, going
up in their hind legs and stuff.
And a figure comes out, hooded figure
walks out, and all of a sudden the
horse is just like, gather around her.
They stare in their hind legs and out.
Rupert Isaacson: This
David Lichman: is amazing.
And then when the actual Liberty
Act came during the show, they, you
know, they either had no side rains
or like extremely loose side reigns.
Mm-hmm.
And I said to somebody, I need to
meet, I need to learn about this.
So I sent her a note and and
I had already been back in
California when she called me.
And we started a, a friendship that has
gone now more than 20 years, and I've
learned so much about the choreography
and the way that horses the way that
the traditional way of training circus
horses, and I, I decided I wanted,
it all relies on the ring curb.
So the ring curb is like the
anchor for the behaviors.
And I said, well, my thing is
to do liberty on the beach.
So how, how, how can I create these
choreography moves without the
use of a ring curb or a round pen?
And that became my my
passion is to do that.
And I, I feel like I'm
pretty successful with that.
There are, since circus is dying in
America, there are, you know, some
super qualified liberty horse trainers
that are taking, going to horse expos
and whatnot, and they carry the, the,
the horses that learned in the ring to
the large arena, and it sort of works.
They could kind of egg shape,
but, you know, they're so, such
pattern learners that mm-hmm.
It sort of works for 'em.
But I sort of, my goal was to not,
was to teach it in a way that they
wanted to be in these patterns with me.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: So the epiphany came
when I found this woman named Casey
Ver, and she was teaching potbelly
pigs using positive reinforcement.
Bridge and target training.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: She thought she was going
to, because popular pigs were so popular
she thought she was gonna be able to make
a living helping these idiots that would
get them and not know how to train them.
Yeah.
And train them in a, in a, using
positive reinforcement in a great way.
And so I, I met her and she said
I'm coming out to California.
One of my students runs a sea
lion facility in, in Moss landing.
And we're gonna do a
horse and sea lion event.
And would you like to come and be a, you
know, a visiting specialist or something?
I don't know.
Think, yes.
Same me up.
So I, I learned so much from the
sea lion piece of this, all the,
the use of positive reinforcement
in the relationship building.
And then Casey went back to the East
Coast, Virginia, and I, I became
really fast friends with the Dr.
Jennifer Zeligs, who was the,
Rupert Isaacson: I was gonna, I was
just wondering if you had met her.
Yes.
David Lichman: Yeah.
So I met her for the
Rupert Isaacson: first time.
David Lichman: So I met her
when she was Jennifer Hurley.
She was married before.
And she took back her maiden name.
But this, this was eyeopening.
I, I sort of, I understood, you
know, sort of positive reinforcement
from an organic standpoint.
You know, when I was a kid, I,
you know, my neighbors had a dog.
I trained the dog.
I had cookies.
You know, it was, it was sort of innate.
But she opened me up to
the, to the art and science.
Of this and, and that my training in
Rupert Isaacson: a
nutshell, what did she do?
'cause I think I'm actually gonna have her
come on the show hopefully in a few weeks.
So this can act as a bit
of a, of an opener for her.
And that for, for the
viewers and listeners.
Jennifer Zeligs is an
extraordinary animal trainer.
She's also kind of a university
professor at Oxford now.
And, and she has worked in zoos with wild
animals of all kinds all over the world.
And you think, well, why
do they need training?
You think, well, what happens when
the veteran, you know, when you need
the vet to come and you need the lion
to let you do its teeth, or you need,
and you, and the lion has a heart
condition, so you can't put it under
a general anesthetic, so dah dah.
And she's like, she's that person who
then spends a month with that lion
or the sea lion or the tortoise, or
whatever it is getting them to be okay.
And it, what's so crazy about her, she's
like, across all these different species
such an interesting lady Buddhist.
Yeah.
Anyway, so, so yeah.
What, what was the nutshell she gave you?
She's a,
David Lichman: she's a secular Buddhist.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: And it's, it
has helped her a lot, you know,
with her, with her own things.
But, so in a nutshell, the, the, you know,
her train, because you mentioned it, her
training starts with the relationship.
So her, the number one.
I use this in every
lecture, every every class.
Number one rule of animal
training come bearing gifts.
Okay.
Be the person that the horse or the
animal looks forward to seeing every day.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: Right.
That's going to start you
off on the right path.
And these are unconditional gifts.
You have this one condition, you
can't be aggressive, you can't, you
know, can't mug me for the treats.
But the only, that's the only, and
even if they are, you can toss the
treats and the cookies over the fence
to them, into a bucket or something.
So you're, it's really unconditional.
And then you can once, once they
are realize that you are, you
know, kind of a, a, a good, a good
thing in their lives, you can start
asking 'em to, to make an exchange.
If you'll put your foot on
this, I'll give you some more
treats and this kind of thing.
So, but she calls it the
relationship bank account.
You wanna put more in than you take out
because the times when you take it out,
when the de equine dentist comes or
the, you know, the trail loading that
they have to go because there's a fire.
All those things, withdrawals from
the relationship bank account.
You want to have a giant.
Massive wealthy relationship bank account
that'll carry you through anything
that you need to do with your animal.
And you know, it's to say, bill
Gates you know, if, if you ask Bill
Gates to, to give you a thousand
dollars, it's like pocket lin, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: But if you ask somebody
who only has $10 for a thousand dollars,
it's life, life ending could be.
Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: You know, if you had to
save his life, he couldn't get it done.
10 thou a thousand dollars.
So the, the idea of building
this relationship bank account,
that was, that's number one.
Number two, is her focus even
stronger than mine because she was
using she was mostly dealing with
I'll say wild animals, let's say.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
David Lichman: Not non
domesticated animals.
That's, that's a better way of saying it,
is to take care of the husbandry first.
The first thing they need to learn
is, you know, how to weigh them.
How to take their temperature,
how to, you know, take blood
draws, how to examine their teeth,
everything that they are gonna need
in their life to be well cared for.
That's her training priority, brushing
their teeth, all these things.
I mean, you know, and when you
watch the young ones, all of
our animals came from rescues.
They, you know, they were beached
animals that, that couldn't be released
to the wild after they were healed.
And and, you know, they're, they're
aggressive and, you know, and I, I,
you know, I'd see them and she'd be
there, you know, with a brooms right.
To defend herself.
And I come back two
months later and she's.
Brushing their teeth and it's
like, oh my God, this woman is
a miracle worker in this area.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: So the, the mechanics of
using positive reinforcement and the other
piece of the puzzle, if you look at her
book, it's called Animal Training 1 0 1 6.
There's six opera condition conditioning
methodologies for training any animal.
And the, the point of the book is I'm
not, I, of course I have a preference
for positive reinforcement and target
training because it's the gentlest
and most cooperative way, but it's
not the best way in every situation.
So here's all the ways,
here's the drawbacks and
benefits of, of each of them.
You choose your own path.
This hit me, you know, smack in the face
because we have this whole horsemanship
tradition, which has value to the animal.
You know, negative reinforcement has a,
you know, terrible sounding name, but, you
know, pressure and release doesn't sound
so terrible, but it's the same thing.
Mm-hmm.
But we've been training
horses this way for.
You know, thousands of years
with extraordinary results
if you do it tactfully.
Mm.
So why, why is this?
It's because it's ethological.
It's, it's part of the way the
horses interact with each other.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: You know, whether you
want to call it hierarchy or pecking
order, it doesn't really matter.
It's about the relation
individual pair relationships.
You know, like one's gonna push the other
until the, you know, they find some common
ground and they, and if you are accepted
into the herd as non-threatening, most
likely because you came bearing gifts,
which is from the other side, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: You can now interact with
them in this way and, and, and, you know,
get results where people who are trying
to do it other ways are not successful.
So, here I am, I have this,
that's the whole foundation
for Pelli use is all that.
So I have all this foundation
and I'm doing great.
And now I have this, and,
and I just married them.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
David Lichman: The first person I saw
that married them was Alexander Kurland
clicker, clicker Train Your Horse.
And in her book, she says, go ahead
and play the Pelli games, wiggle
your rope, and when the horse backs
up, click and give him a cookie.
So she already was, had this
idea that you could do both.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: And I just,
I just ran with that.
So, you know, I, I can't thank Jennifer
enough, plus, you know, I got to go
hang out with sea lions, you know,
for all the time I was with her.
I never asked her if I could do something.
With a sea lion.
I, I, I, I always felt
like I wasn't qualified.
It was really, you know, I watched
her, you know, be so strict
with her trainees and stuff.
I said, I'm, I'm gonna go in
there, I'm gonna make a mistake.
I don't, I don't, I don't need to do it.
Mm-hmm.
And then right before she, in her last
year, I, I went ahead and she, she
let me go in and, and feed a fish.
That was the, that was the task.
Feed a fish in the proper way
from the outside of the fence.
I could do some targeting and stuff.
But it, it's this thing about balancing
using positive and negative reinforcement.
It's come kind of a catch phrase for me,
but I still run into it and it, and it, it
bothers me that there are people in both
camps that think the other one is wacko.
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm
an autism dad and we have a whole
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When my son, Rowan, was
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And she told me what to do.
And it's been working so
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That not only is my son basically
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Working in schools, working at
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If you would like to learn this
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We really want to know.
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live their best life, to live
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David Lichman: It's, it's,
it's, it's prevalent.
I don't want my horse
Rupert Isaacson: in, in the horse world,
David, really, I've never noticed this.
I've, I've, I, I've spent all these
decades in the horse world, never
have I encountered anything other
than people behaving a loving, an
open-hearted way to each other.
David Lichman: Okay.
Point taken.
But these are people who are trying
to do the right thing for the horse.
Right.
They're not, they're not, you know,
trying to get results so much as they are
trying to, they both say they're for the
horse, but the, these people will come to
me and they'll, they'll hire me knowing
what I do and say, well, I want my horse
to love me for me, not for the cookies.
Know, so you'll deny 'em cookies
to make the loving harder.
Right.
And my assistant, my assistant Betina,
she said, here's what you tell 'em.
He said food is nurturing.
Nurturing is love.
You wanna love your horse.
Just, yeah.
Say it simply like that.
So I, I sort of reverted to that.
So we get that side, and then we get
the other side that says, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: it's also worth be,
it is worth just pointing out there
that in the mammalian caregiving
system, what is the first thing
that a baby seeks from its mother?
Yeah, breast milk.
Yeah, breast and milk.
So it's.
Theft written into the DNA code.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Why, why fight it?
Yeah.
David Lichman: You know, and I, I wonder
why I have such a sweet tooth, right?
And then when I, when I finally had a
daughter and I go back to Marblehead and
my, and she's sitting in the backseat
with my mom and she's, you know, being
a little fussy and my mom reaches into
her purse and pulls out some, you know,
chocolate chips or M and msm, something
starts stuffing in, in her mouth.
I, huh.
Now it's all, it's all coming back to me.
Why?
She used to, to get me to drink milks.
She used to put chocolate chips
in the bottom of the milk.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
David Lichman: But yeah, so from the other
side, really perspective, absolutely this
natural horsemanship thing, you know,
there's a lot of, there's a lot more,
you know, aversives dis discomfort to
try to get the horse to, to find what
you're looking for, to be easy and, and
motivated to do it in a positive way.
Mm-hmm.
So it's, it's, you know, a little
more ruffled feathers could be,
but no way less than that you would
ever see them doing with each other.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
David Lichman: But, but, you know, the,
the, the best practitioners of this,
like Buck Brandman, I love Buck Brandman.
Have you read his book?
Oh my God,
Rupert Isaacson: no.
I have not.
Yeah,
David Lichman: you must Danny get
Rupert Isaacson: him on the show.
Yeah.
David Lichman: You, yeah.
You must read his book.
I don't know what he's doing now, but
his book, it, it, it tears your heart
out, what he went through as a kid.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: If anybody should
be beating horses to get them
to do stuff, it should be him.
And he just.
Pushed all that stuff that was done
to him as a child away and asking
to treat the horses the opposite.
So to me, you know, he can't do any
wrong, but he did say that anybody who
uses streets to train horses is an idiot.
So I don't think I'm an idiot,
but, but I understand where he
Rupert Isaacson: is going.
Yeah, it's an interesting one,
this, because people often
ask me, Ru do you use treats?
And you know, in, in, in the, what,
15 years or so since we last met for
reasons too complicated to explain,
we are now also classical dressage
trainers in the sort of bar rock style.
And that came through autism, not
through us particularly wanting
to, because we, we realized that
we, the horse was in collection.
The kids spoke if it was in the
saddle in front of you because of
oxytocin of the rocking of the hips.
And we all know how beautiful it feels.
Well that also that can, that bliss
hormone is also a communication
hormone and that's horse boy method.
And so because we had to start training
the horses more and more this way,
it was just a natural progression.
And anyway, so people come, we now
have a stable of school master horses.
People come from all over the world
and they, they learn with us whether
they're learning the therapeutic
side, the dressage side, or both.
Usually both.
And so, people often ask
me, do you use treats?
And what I always say is when I remember
to, and I wish I remember two more
often, but I'm distracted with stuff
and I don't, so I'm not like the dude
who walks around with the fanny pack,
with the, you know, blah, blah, blah.
And it's all really organized.
And no, because I just don't
operate that way in my life, period.
I, I get round to things
when I, when it occurs to me.
So sometimes I got treats
and sometimes I don't.
Yeah.
And I find, weirdly that works
for me very well because what will
often happen is when the horse.
Is being very generous.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I
don't have a Scooby snack.
I should go get you a Scooby snack.
And the horse knows the word Scooby snack,
you know, so, oh, I need a Scooby snack.
Yes, you do.
So you just hang out here and I'll
sort of run off to the feed room and
grab a Scooby snack and come back.
And there's some, sometimes that's
even more special in a weird way
because, and then sometimes I've
got the Scooby snacks on me.
And then like, you, my only
thing is look, don't mug me.
You know, I, I did a lot of early
trick training with Alan Pogue
because we were both in Texas.
He's an amazing dude.
I'm trying to get him to come on the show.
And his adage about always your mouth
to their hand, never the your hand,
your hand mouth, never, the mouth
to your hand is a very good one.
And I found that horses can discern.
It's really interesting once
you just say, Hey, listen,
please don't mug me, you know?
And then very occasionally when they
get a bit cheeky, like, cheeky eat,
and they're like, okay, fair enough.
You know, the, there isn't
this big deal about it.
Either way
David Lichman: to be, to be honest.
There can be, and, and I'm not
the greatest example because
I don't care if they muck me.
Right.
So.
Right.
I like it when they're nuzzling and, you
know, they're, they're begging and stuff,
but it's not really, Jennifer hates it.
She hates seeing my horses,
you know, what are they doing?
Yeah.
Because she, she draws the line
very hard and I understand why,
Rupert Isaacson: but also, I guess
we're also not dealing with, you know,
aggressive carnivores like she is, but,
David Lichman: and, and no one
else has to deal with my horses.
Like if you were to
Rupert Isaacson: therapy horse,
well, I think everything is,
everyone has to deal with mine.
See, that's the difference.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I can't count the number of people who
come and sit on my horses for pf massage,
flying changes, caprio oils, blah, blah.
You know, they do it and they'll do
it joyfully and happily for anybody in
their dog that comes through the door.
And
David Lichman: yeah,
so Jennifer, Jennifer's
Rupert Isaacson: so, so,
you know what I mean?
It's not, other people have to deal
with my horses daily and it's fine.
It's fine.
Yeah.
David Lichman: It's, it's apec
it's a, it's, it's one of the
cases where, or public performance
horses or therapy horses or horses
that are being used around kids.
These horses have to have
a, an extra level of of
Rupert Isaacson: they do,
David Lichman: Of discernment of,
of, of concern about being, be,
be about keeping those kids safe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, they can't be,
they can't be mugging.
It's, it's not, it's not appropriate.
So, so there's an extra level of, of
care and caution that goes into that,
and Jennifer does it with all our animals
because they're basically non domesticated
animals and they could take your head off.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
David Lichman: But, but the, the message,
the training message is the fastest path.
Yay.
The only path to the food
is through the behavior.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: So there, there's
no path to the food where that,
that you head towards the food
that that path doesn't exist.
Yeah.
But there are plenty of paths that you
can choose, and I will let you choose
them all the time if you go through
the behavior and behavior may be
standing quietly waiting for a treat.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: So this, yeah, exactly.
You know, this is, this is fun,
fundamental, and foundational to
the, the, to the use of treats.
But anyway, what bothers me is
only the ones I, I don't care if
you come to me and say, sometimes
I use treats, sometimes I don't.
I come, I don't care if you come
to me and say, I never use treats.
Some, or, or I, I might say to you,
would you be interested in trying see
if it makes a difference or, you know,
I might, might have a discussion.
Yeah.
But really, really the answer
is you do what you want.
Both of these systems work great.
I found that when I marry them,
I'm getting extraordinary results.
That's way more than twice as
good as one, one or the other.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: And I may never get
as good, you know, as Buck Brandman
is with horses with, with my way.
But I'm getting closer than if I
didn't, if I didn't use streets,
I would, I'm getting closer.
Rupert Isaacson: I think too, there's
also a thing of how you wanna live
your life as a horseman and how
you want to interact with nature.
Period.
As we know, horses sort of attract
a certain personality type that is
controlling and that can be a very
good thing in certain ways, and it can
be a very bad thing in certain ways.
And the other thing we have to allow
for is that the greater acts of
criminality of man to their fellow man
have either happened basically on the
backs of horses or on off, off ships.
It's unfortunate for the horse,
but we have, you know, used
them as vehicles for this.
And so there's a kind of a fierceness
that comes genetically down the line
of horse people from the step all the
way through, you know, the gothic lines
and the Ibero Celtic lines and the,
the middle Eastern lines and, you know.
The central Asian lines.
These are warlike people and
so those of us who carry those
genes tend to be a bit like that.
And I think that's why horse
people are so competitive.
They just can't help it.
But the, you know, at least we're
not actually chopping each other's
heads off with savers anymore, but,
you know, sort of metaphorically
all the time on Facebook.
But it's, it's, of course it's pointless.
But I do think, like you, my my feeling is
people have the right to interact with the
culture in the way that is right for them.
And I think this is just so often missed.
You know, like you, I go round, oh, you
know, I dunno how many trainings I do,
you know, yearly in 40 countries, right.
You know, and it's
different wherever I go.
But what I, what I always look out for
is the one thing that I feel is glaringly
missing from the training scale, you
know, the German training scale and
all of that and or any of the methods
is the fundamental thing that
we're all looking for and which
the horse is looking for is joy.
That's it.
It's the only reason any of us getting
involved with horses and we certainly
don't need them for transport.
You could argue in the therapy work
that I do, that there is a kind of
a necessity there, but for the most.
But even there, it's to feel good even
there, it's ultimately actually for joy.
'cause oxytocin is joy.
So, you know, the function of the, the
joyful brain is the learning brain.
The joyful brain is the functioning brain.
So it is still joy.
So to
approach the culture without
that as the primary thing,
almost negates it from the start.
And then joy becomes sort of an
accidental or spontaneous here and there
with an awful lot of grump in between.
Or we could like sideline the grump.
And so much of sidelining the grump
is often, you know, I used to be so
much more judgmental than I am now.
And now I go to all these different
bonds and I just notice the ones
that are really joyful and where
the horses are really joyful.
And I see that people can keep their
horses in all kinds of different ways.
And they might be very different to
the ways in which I keep my horses.
But is it joyful?
Is it a good vibe, a joyful
vibe among the monkeys?
And is it a good, joyful
vibe among the ponies?
If it is, I have nothing to say other
than, you know, here are some tools
that will make it even more joyful.
You know what I mean?
But to, to say it this or is it this?
It's just, it's just
David Lichman: Well, we, what's,
what's great about having a focus
on liberty training is that if it
ain't joyful, it ain't gonna happen.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
' David Lichman: cause the horse
is gonna leave now if you do it
in a stall, maybe in a stall.
I've seen people cannot catch
their horse in a horse trailer.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
David Lichman: You know, so, so the,
the everybody's, everybody that's,
you know, I'm surrounding myself with
people who are desirous of learning
something that you, you, you, you
can't get there the other way.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: So there's a,
there's a, you know, I, I'm giving
you, you know, maybe I'm, my, the
food as a motivator is a shortcut.
Right.
It helps to make it not so, time
consuming that you, you know.
Mm-hmm.
But I have so many students now that
are, are, are gaining these joyful
relationships with their horses from
doing nothing, from sitting out there.
Absolutely.
And, you know, and, and, and, and,
you know, pat, pat Pelli was the first
one to say this, you know, spend some
undemanding time with your horse.
It was like in the chapter one of, lesson
one in the beginning of the program.
Yeah.
But nobody listened.
Even I, even Warwick Schiller told me
one day, he said he was, I saw him out,
another thing, and he said, we should be,
you know, he's, we should be spending you.
This horse needs you to go
out and hang out with him.
Spend under many time with him.
He says, Linda Pley was telling
me this 10 years ago and I
didn't hear it till just now.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I couldn't agree more.
David Lichman: So with the,
with the Liberty focus, people
are very happy to do it.
And and it's making a huge difference.
And I don't, I don't
have to sell it really.
Yeah.
My, my new my newest assistant
her name is Gabriela, Adam Cheska.
She's from Poland.
And I say she's like the
queen of a demanding time.
I mean, and, and it's not, she
does, it's because she doesn't
have to force herself, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: She, she can't wait
to get to the barn and she can't wait
to just sit there and scratch 'em and
cuddle 'em for hours and, and the joy.
And you see her and I, and she'd go up for
walks in the woods and I said, you know,
you should be just, just turn 'em loose.
They're not gonna go anywhere.
No, I'm worried about the moose
and I'm worried about somebody
asshole coming with a car.
And, but those horses are
never going to leave her.
And Moose jumps out,
they're gonna run to her.
And just recently, the last couple
of, couple of videos she sent
me, she's got the rope around the
neck and she's jogging out there.
And then you see the road is like forever.
This, this pony could go, you
know, from Poland to to Germany.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: But it's not,
it's not going more than 50 feet.
Yeah.
It's, it's coming back.
So it's because, you know,
she has a hammock in the barn.
She has a coffee maker and a
hammock, and, and she's studying
to be an osteopath in Germany.
So she's reading her osteopath, uh mm-hmm.
Study material and it, it's and so I, I
have her help me with all of my students
as if nothing more than an example.
Rupert Isaacson: The difficulty, I
think, for a lot of people with this,
so, I think we have to be fair here
is, so I'm lucky I live with my ponies.
They're right outside my door right
here, and they live on a mountain.
So, and I can go trail riding with them
and they, they'll come with me as a herd.
If I go for a walk, they'll
come with me as a herd.
Hey, what's, what's, you know,
auntie dad up to you today?
And they're curious and
they just wanna hang.
And I will just go and answer emails
sitting on a rock in the field and
they'll come and they'll hang out with me.
And so, you know, and we make
videos about this telling people
to do it, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But we have that luxury
because this is how we live.
And I totally get the people who,
the large, vast majority of horse
owners do not have that luxury, sadly.
They have a job and they're battling
for the time to spend with their horse.
So after work, you know, they've gotta
get to the barn and they only have this
small window of time because maybe they
have family and you know, so and so on.
And maybe their husband isn't, you
know, into horses and doesn't want
her at the barn all night, you know,
even though she probably would.
And so there's a time pressure.
And then there's also peer pressure.
And then there's, oh, I can only be in the
arena 'cause it's after dark, you know?
And it's, you know, I get off work
after dark and I've gotta go in
the arena and the arena's, you
know, gonna be full of people.
So I've gotta make sure I'm in there
by six 30, you know, for my slot.
And I've only got this slot and
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And now we come along like assholes
and say, oh, you've got to go
and sit on a rock, you know, on
your mountain with your horses.
And I, I, I, you know, like you, I do an
awful lot of sort of equine symposiums
and I was listening to somebody, you know,
effectively shaming people for not having
the state of Wyoming as their backyard.
I'm like, come on.
No.
Surely what we should be doing
is giving people solutions.
So,
David Lichman: and so that's exactly
my point in this, is that you,
you okay, nobody is, I don't know
anyone else in the world that's
gonna do what Gabrielle is doing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: But here's, here's,
you see, you know how this is working.
Shave off 10 minutes.
Rupert Isaacson: That's it.
David Lichman: That's it.
You know, just, just, you know, and, and
Jen, you'll talk to Jennifer about this
when you've talked to Jennifer, she wrote
a, a new book called The Mindful Partners
and Copy floating around here somewhere.
No, that's a different book.
And, and I took her Mindful
Partners course online with her.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: And and everything
starts with 10 minutes of meditation.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
David Lichman: to get yourself to
the place where you can interact
with a horse without bringing all
that crap from the rest of your life.
So, and you know, and I didn't like it,
you know, I did not like that.
I didn't, I wanna sit, sit and do nothing.
I wanted to spend the time with my
horse because although I preached
on demanding time, I'm doing this
stuff and, you know, and now I've
started playing a lot of music.
This music takes hours of practice.
I'm not out there all that time.
But what I did learn from her was, so we
had to do, I was doing pigeon training.
I said, I'm gonna train
some my pigeon or chickens.
I was gonna train my why.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, in,
David Lichman: well, because I love,
because I love chickens and I love
pigeons, and I love training, and I didn't
want to, you know, my horses, I have
already have like this relationship with
the horses and I'm taking this course.
I want to try something fresh.
Right?
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: So I found that,
you know, by having the pigeons fly
to me and eat seeds out of a cup,
that was very meditative for me.
I
Rupert Isaacson: bet
David Lichman: I didn't have to, you
know, practice some kind of meditation.
I was just breathing and listening to
the, they make a little sound when they
eating, and it's like, it's fabulous.
So, so, yeah.
Shave off a piece.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: And then maybe the
most important thing, which I, maybe
she, you could ask her about it, is
the, is this thing she calls a reset.
So when you find that you're interacting
with the animal and you have lost that.
Place, turn around one minute,
just take one minute and find
that place and then come back.
And I have used that for myself
and students thousands of times
since I learned that from her.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
David Lichman: You don't need to be
out there for, for an hour now if
she does no meditate for an hour a
day or two hours a day or whatever.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
But again, she has the luxury of, of
that time because it, this is her job.
Yeah.
You know, I, I I hear you.
And it's, we, we found ourselves
in this interesting position
when we first moved to Germany.
So we, we put some horses on a plane and
we took 'em to Germany and we weren't
gonna show up in Germany and buy a farm.
And we were still running
the ranch in Texas.
And all that programming
was still going on.
I was actually commuting back
and forth and so we still
had horses in Texas as well.
And when we landed in Germany,
we were like, okay, young kids,
not, not a farm apartment board.
The horses find the best place, but
okay, you show up with six horses.
You, you, you beggars can't be choosers.
You've gotta find the barn
that will take six slots.
And so, alright, so, and
David Lichman: real, real estate
is a huge pro scarcity in, in,
in Germany and Switzerland.
And except when you is
Rupert Isaacson: sorry
David Lichman: barn that
there aren't big, huge fields.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, ironically there
are, but there's loads of them actually.
But there's a culture in the horse world
there where horses go out in the summer
and they don't go out in the winter.
Mm.
And they go out in the winter only in what
they call a paddock, which is like a sand
lock where they don't even put a, like
a round be, and they just kind of stand
around for two hours and then the rest of
the time they go back and they're stable.
And so we found ourselves in
that situation, and this was
really interesting for us.
So me and Iliana went, whoa,
like this is the, now we really
get what people are up against.
And we had this like super grumpy barn
owner who's like, it's this is the
way and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm like, okay, well you,
where else are we gonna go?
So what we did is we came up
with all these little strategies.
Now an obvious one for us was ride
one, lead two, ride, one lead.
You know, because big
forests, no gates, no fences.
Easy trail riding very easy to ride,
you know, exercise your whole hurt.
But you, you're not gonna
do that for eight hours.
Right.
You know?
And if a horse is gonna stand in a
stable, you, he needs to be moving
for a long time to be happy to chill.
And plus, where's he
getting that social time?
Where's he getting that touch?
So one thing we did do, we did, we
came up with two strategies that really
worked, which we now try to get people
to do, but we understand that the culture
of their barn may or may not allow it.
But the first one is what we
call crazy time, where we would
put our horses together in the
arena and, and put up fences.
And they all jump.
So we, we put these very wide, long fences
and we'd encourage them to just have fun.
I didn't care if they jumped.
I didn't care if they
didn't jump, you know?
And then every two minutes I'd change
the thing, make it a zigzag, make it
wonky, put a big butter in the middle,
you know, chuck a yoga ball at them as
they, you know, anything I could do.
And I came up with this idea of
I'm no longer a horse trainer.
I'm a horse entertainer.
And because you know, the
worst problem is boredom.
Mm-hmm.
And the in about 20 minutes of crazy
time, which is also social time.
And they'd stop and they'd roll and
they'd stop and groom each other,
and then they'd bugger off again.
And then, and I learned that there was
a lovely rhythm to this, and I realized
I could do this therapeutically.
I could bring autistic kids into
this and we could calculate.
The distance that they were going
down, the long side and how long
it took them, and how long it
takes me and how long it takes.
And then we get the cell phone out, we
do distance over time, and we get speed.
Wow.
And then we can calculate heights and
distances and weights and team building
and horsemanship and blah, blah, blah.
And suddenly I had like a whole
therapeutic program just with that
so I could do crazy time all day
with my horses and get paid for it.
But then I realized, oh, well not
all barn owners will let you do that.
Or what if you've only got one horse?
So then we also realized, ah,
and what if you're one person?
So in Germany they have this really good
tradition called a, which means somebody
who shares your horse, basically with
the idea that because horses are often
stabled and standing there bored, you get
other people to come in and ride them.
And as you know, in many horse cultures of
my culture, I, you can't touch my horse.
No one else can touch my horse.
But
David Lichman: we have
it, we have it here.
Half lease.
We call it a
Rupert Isaacson: half lease, right?
Exactly.
But not everybody does it.
And so what we did was we
encouraged, we created basically
a tribe around our horses.
And so we could be pretty sure
that in the course of a day, in the
winter, various people would come
in and do various things with them.
Pretty regularly.
So they, they were just
entertained someone.
Some of it was riding, some of
it was taking them for a walk.
Some of it was a scratch.
Some of it was crazy time.
Some it was in hand work.
Some of it was lunging, some of
it was this, some of it was that.
But someone was gonna show
up and do something nice.
And so now we train people how to
build these tribes and say, okay,
David, you've only got one horse.
And Sharon over there, she's got
one horse and you know, Walter over,
there's got two horses and a mini
and you're all in the same barn.
Why don't you get together
and do this tribally?
And the idea of non-demanding time,
you know, when I was in Mongolia,
hanging out with horse tribes
there, well, that's what you do.
'cause you're living in
a tent, a ga, a big yurt.
And the horses are just kind of there.
They're just all around you.
So of course you're spending
undemanding time with your horse.
'cause you walk out your daughter
to take a pee and there's a horse
standing there and you say, oh, hello.
And you go to get the water
from the, the river and there's
five horses standing there.
And you go to get firewood and
the horses come with you to
check out what you're doing.
And so just your daily chores,
just your daily, it's, it's just
you sit outside, strumming your
guitar, the horses are there.
Because that's your
culture, that's your life.
And realize, well, that's where the whole
thing began was with tribes and groups
of people just living with their horses.
And we've created these crazy
sort of artificial environments
based on old cavalry.
Old cavalry barracks.
Really?
That's sort of what those bonds are.
David Lichman: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, but
even those old cavalry barracks,
those horses moved all day.
That was the first thing.
So when you put them in the box at night,
they're like pretty happy to chill.
And they were doing stuff in formation,
so they had a lot of social time and they
went on field maneuvers all the time.
So they were out in nature.
There's
a
David Lichman: thing that,
there was a thing, like my first
horses that I saw tie stalls.
Yeah.
You know, they stood, they, they didn't
move at all, but, you know, they, they,
those, those were working horses that
those tie stalls were created from
horses that were grateful for the rest.
Right.
They, they've been working all day.
They just wanted Yeah.
Power
Rupert Isaacson: horses and all of that.
Yeah.
David Lichman: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: I think, you know, there's
a couple of things that happened, you
know, for, for better and for worse.
When, when the, when the horses
when the horses were needed
for work or transportation.
So let's say prior to 1900 Mm.
Yes, there was a lot of, you know, crap
being done to horses, but essentially.
The, there was, there was, there's,
there was an amount of connection
to the horses that was required
because you had to rely on them.
Absolutely.
You know, and there, you know, there
were all these military ways of doing
it with forest and all this stuff.
Th those, those bad things existed, but
the core of, of trying to find, have a
relationship with the animal that lives
with you, you know, next to the cow, but
pulls the plow, but also takes you to
church on Sunday, whatever the, these,
these things were there and then when the
horse became just you know, a, a pastime
and not required for construction, I
think that's the piece that got lost.
Yes.
So we end up with the horses in
the stalls and nobody caring and
showing up and take a lesson and
you and spurring 'em to go and just,
you, you know, you gotta do this.
Gotta only have an hour.
I think that culturally came when we,
we didn't have to have a relationship
with the horses because you know, it, it
didn't ma it without the relationship.
We weren't having so much fun.
But when we relied on the horse, we,
you know, he had to, we had to have
a certain amount of empathy within.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And if you think about it, if you, if you
have to ride from, you know, your house
to the local town, to the dry goods store.
Many, many hours you're spending
with your horse right there.
It's maybe gonna take you
two hours to get to town.
Then you're gonna do your rounds in town.
That's gonna take you two to three hours.
Then little visit to the saloon.
Okay.
Horses hanging out with some other horses.
Then you come out, or, or church
horses hang out with other
horses and then you come back and
then it's a couple hours home.
You've been with that horse all day.
All day.
Right.
And it's interesting too.
Yeah.
People make a lot of bones about, oh,
it was also bad back then, was it?
I'm sure there were bad people, but
that was where horsemanship was at.
Its apogee.
There was a lot of fantastic
horsemanship back then and a lot of
people who were genuinely loving and
attached to their horses, probably
more than they were to their children.
David Lichman: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, and
David Lichman: so that, so in this
century that's where, you know, Tom
Dorens and Ray Hunt and those people
were, they, they were bringing back.
That piece.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: That, that got,
that got eliminated by the culture.
And so that's, that's, you
know, I think we're lucky.
You know, Dr.
Miller wrote this book called
The Revolution in Horsemanship,
but it came, it, you know, hi.
His thing was that it
came out of three things.
One is the, that the the, the
population of horse is largely
women and women are not gonna put
up with the unempathetic approach.
The, the diss dissemination of the
information is now much easier to
see and, and to get the information
about how to have a relationship.
And the third is the prominence of these
few characters that, that, that had it
and were willing to share it, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Tom Lawrence and, and the, the
Dorrance brothers in general.
So, in the, in the current, in my, you
know, I feel like I'm luxury, luxury.
I, I have the luxury I'm floating on
the, on the work that they've done, and
on the, in the, I am in the right time
because people are hungry for this.
But you know, I just, for me, I just,
you know, I, I'm, I'm not I, I didn't, I,
there's a couple of things I invented very
couple of small things that are original
in thought, but I, I feel like I'm,
I'm shining, I'm reflecting the light.
Rupert Isaacson: What,
what are those things?
What are those things that you invented?
David Lichman: Oh, God.
I.
I can't think of it.
Probably haven't invented anything.
That's nice.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: Well, I mean,
the, the way that I, I mean, I
didn't even invent these things.
Every once in a while I'll be
teaching and I go, huh, you know what?
Nobody's doing that.
I figured that out myself.
Huh.
But I don't, I don't typically take
pride on it, but I, I noticed okay.
The, so the one thing that about
about circles, I, I kind of
changed the way that, that we teach
circles because they don't have
a round pen or, or a circus ring.
So the common way of teaching us a horse
to be with you on a circle at Liberty was
to teach him, you know, teach him about
the circle, teach him about moving his
hindquarters and when he, and, and use and
facing you with the hindquarters moving.
So what I noticed is that
people were doing something
called partial disengagement.
So the horse is thinking about leaving
you and you know, okay, you know,
you've, you've tuned up my quarter
yields, I'm I'll, I'm, I'm back.
I'm back.
And pretty, it doesn't take more
than like two laps before the horses
figure out, you know, there's nothing
behind this partial disengagement.
I might as well just go.
And they do, you know, not maliciously,
but there's nothing, nothing.
There's nothing holding them there.
So I said, let's change their mind.
Let's, let's make this thing that
is us the best place on earth.
So that when they arrive here,
we make a big deal out of it.
And when they think about leaving, make
it a little uncomfortable, but don't then
say, okay, don't think about leaving,
but keep going on this stupid circle.
They say, Hey, hey, remember me and then
bring them back to you and say this, you
know, why were, what were you thinking?
There's nothing out there.
Everything good is here.
So I changed the paradigm about these
partial disengagements and said, you're,
you're, you know, there is no try.
You are, you either do or do not, right?
Yeah.
I, you, you're, you're, you're
with me or you're not with me.
If you're not with me, you're
gonna come back here and
find out how good it is here.
Mm-hmm.
And if you're with me, I don't have
to, I don't have to keep nagging
you and partially disengaging you
and, and you, and you end up just
dulling them to that request.
So
Rupert Isaacson: that, can you now through
that do the liberty out on a beach?
David Lichman: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: And can you
do that with a group of horses?
David Lichman: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So, and is, I'll tell you that the
key that they're, that you get them
focused on you being now, okay,
so what happens if they're on that
beach and unforeseen circumstances?
A big spook or a,
yeah.
Let's, let's go with that one.
A big spook.
David Lichman: Okay.
So I'll tell you that for, for
10 years, I, I played with these
liberty horses and arenas and did
demonstrations and stuff, and, and I
never wanted to take him to the beach.
I just thought this is
an impossible thing.
So here, these horses have
been with me for 10 years.
They're doing all these
formations, all this liberty work.
They, they know these were the
horses that, that I took to Texas.
At your place, those three
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
David Lichman: And
Rupert Isaacson: they were great.
David Lichman: I decided I'm going to, I,
I'm gonna go to the beach and see, okay,
I just wanna see if it's, if it works.
I was too afraid to go.
So I said, so I hired, I, hi.
I got two friends to come as outriders.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: And, and, and I said, I'm
just gonna, you know, if, if they take
off, you have to go down and, you know,
round him up and bring him back to me.
And those horses never
thought about leaving.
I, I, I, it blew me away.
It wasn't like I, I felt
like I had trained something.
I just, they never thought about leaving.
And the, the outrider said,
you know, we're bored.
Can we go on a trail ride?
And I said, sure.
And they went down the beach and
my horses didn't follow them.
They stayed with me.
That's
Rupert Isaacson: interesting.
That's interesting.
David Lichman: And, and I didn't, you
know, yes I did all the things that I
said this would work for, but I, I sort of
didn't believe it until it happened to me.
It was like, they surprised me
with how good, how great it was.
Rupert Isaacson: That's interesting
that you said that they didn't follow
the other horses down the beach.
Now you of course, have built how
many years of relationship with these
horses by the time you did that?
David Lichman: 10 years.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
So you were a decade in right.
With this particular
David Lichman: group, but I,
but I did take my next group.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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David Lichman: So, so those
horses have passed and I go
the next group and I wasn't so
interested in doing the beach work.
I wasn't, I, you know, I, my focus had
changed a little bit, but I decided to
take 'em and just see what would happen.
And they didn't leave either.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: They didn't care.
I did, there was one instance where I,
where I had horses take off at the beach.
So my friend Meredith brought her
horse and she was gonna film me.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: So she filmed me.
Of
Rupert Isaacson: course,
that day they take off.
Yeah,
David Lichman: yeah.
No, they were, they
were fine with filming.
Yeah.
And we didn't get much good footage
because she was holding her horse,
and horse kept nudging her and
the camera's going like this.
And that wasn't so success.
So now I got my horses and they're,
they're at the beach grass.
They're sitting around me and I said,
okay, Meredith, now it's your turn.
I'll get the camera.
And she's playing with her horse.
I said, just turn 'em loose.
What's he gonna do?
He's not, where is he gonna go?
You know, enjoy this freedom.
And she, so, okay, so she turns
him loose and he runs over to me.
Okay, we'll try it again.
I send him back there.
He runs over to me.
Third time he runs over my horses and
they get a thing going and they're gone
over the sand dunes and I can't see 'em.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: Oh boy.
We, I have made a huge mistake.
'cause this goes to the parking
lot and then that goes to the
road and god knows where they are.
So we, where
Rupert Isaacson: is this by the way?
David Lichman: Is that in point Reyes?
In, in Oh, I
Rupert Isaacson: know, point Reyes.
Wow, that's beautiful
David Lichman: there.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: So we, so I climb
up the sand dunes and I see Scotty
there and and I have my stock whip.
They're trained to come to the sound of
the stock whip because it's very loud
and, you know, and, and I see Scotty
there eating and the others are like
wandering down towards the parking lot.
And I said, if I can get Scotty,
I think the others will come back.
So I called him and cracked the whip.
He came over, I put the
thing around his neck.
The others came back and
followed us back to the beach.
It was, it was not, not the panic
that I thought it would be, but, you
know, if you're worried, bring, bring
a couple of out riders, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: They're not gonna, they're
not gonna outrun the ridden horses.
I mean, eventually they'll,
they'll come to a stop.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, and I suppose choose
your, choose your environment.
So that Yeah.
The, the freeway isn't right there.
David Lichman: My, yeah.
My, my first experience with horses
on the beach, I did not do well.
I, I, there were people on the beach
and the horses get scared of the,
you know, they do get scared of the
waves coming in and they mm-hmm.
You know, so I have, I teach people how
to not be in the place where your horse
is gonna run when you get scared of the
waves and don't get knocked over and hurt.
But, you know, I made a lot of mistakes.
There were people bathing there.
It's like, oh my God, I killed somebody.
So we, I'll tell you a Mike Farney story.
Maybe, maybe this will be a good story
for the end of of our visit on the beach.
It's a, my very first clinic with Dr.
Zeligs on the beach.
I did after Casey, I did one
myself with horses and sea lions.
And so in preparation for going to
the beach, I told the students, okay,
we're gonna come up to the sand dunes,
and all I want you to do is just
stand there and have your horse relax.
At that point, you don't
have to go near the water.
You don't have to go in the water.
Just let them see it.
We have lots of time,
we have days to do this.
You don't have to get anything done.
Just be there and make sure
that they're okay with it.
'cause some of them are terrified.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
David Lichman: So I'm
gonna go in the water.
So I go to get a wetsuit on, and I'm not
experienced with this, and I'm stuck.
I don't have any talcom power.
I can't get the thing on.
And I come out, you know, 20
minutes later, and Mike Farney,
who was a brilliant instructor
at the time, he was helping me.
And Mike Farney is a
two time Olympic skier.
He's, he is doing the, the
real, the giant slalom.
He's like the adrenaline junkie.
He's, and
Rupert Isaacson: he's also
a big time Pelli instructor.
David Lichman: Yeah, he was.
Okay.
So Mike's there and I say,
Mike, just make sure they don't,
you know, don't do anything.
Just let 'em just sit on the dunes.
Well, I'm getting dressed.
I come out, Mike Farney is stripped down
to his skis in the water, jumping around
with all the students and their horses.
He's, he's a risk taker, right?
So, yeah, I was a little too cautious.
But yeah, Mike Farney later, he later
got a pilot's license and I said, you
are the last guy I wanna fly with.
But I, I think you know how the,
the beach is tough for some horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I mean, there's, there's a lot of things.
There's wind, there's the waves, there's,
as you say, people, dogs, flappy things.
David Lichman: And those waves in
Northern California are massive.
Rupert Isaacson: They're big.
Yeah.
I.
What, what's your way of getting
the horse used to the waves
and that kind of buffering wind
that you get there without them,
David Lichman: the wind not so
much, but the waves, you know,
it's like attacking their feet.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
David Lichman: And so the, the
biggest advice for this mm-hmm.
Is be prepared to get wet.
Because if that thing, if that wave
is coming up and you're trying to tell
the horse it's okay, just go in there.
But you don't wanna get your
shoes wet and you jump out.
You have just set the wrong example buddy.
He is not going in if you are bailing,
he said, you're trying to get me to go in
and you won't go in, so you're gonna get
your boots full of water if you, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: okay,
David Lichman: do this correctly.
Plus you'll be standing in the ocean side.
So if they do get scared by a
wave, they run away from you.
They don't knock you over.
'cause I have been knocked over
in the surf by horses trying
to get out of the wave, A wave.
So that's the message.
And, and you know, the simple answer,
just go sideways along the shore,
let the shore be like a fence.
And eventually they'll get tired
of, you know, backing up and
they'll see, oh, he lapped my foot.
And some horses go straight in.
Some, some horses you better have
a line on because they will go
from point Reyes and try to swim
to Japan, or at least Hawaii.
Okay.
I don't, I don't know what it
is, but they get in and they
just go, it really scares you.
Rupert Isaacson: And what, what
have you done in that situation?
David Lichman: Had a line.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: Thankfully I had a line.
It doesn't happen that
often, but just, you know.
Beware.
Most, most of the time your horse is
terrified of the wave coming up and
you're gonna spend all day trying
to get 'em to just be calm about the
water, splashing 'em on their legs.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: And there, there
are a few that dive in and wanna
roll, which is, which is fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
David Lichman: And if you have
horseshoes, make sure you rinse the
salt off because they will rust.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.
Good, good advice.
So David, what, where are you
heading to now with your horses?
What's the next stage in your
career, in your adventure?
David Lichman: Well, I
had this desire to perform
and I worked for a year to
go on America's Got Talent.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: And I worked
very hard every day, all day on
all aspects of the performance.
And I got people to help,
brilliant people to help me.
And on the day of the, the show,
they were the day before they said
we're gonna do the the B roll footage
and also the background story.
They, you know, they usually
play a little background story.
Mm-hmm.
So, Pinos back, because they'd seen my
it's mini horse, his thing for the act
was he was gonna, he wanted to meet
Heidi Klum and he wanted to give a kiss
to Heidi, give a kiss to Heidi Klum.
This was, and
Rupert Isaacson: you, you had Heidi
Klum on the end of your phone that
you could ask her to come and do this.
David Lichman: Well, she
was one of the judges.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, got it.
David Lichman: So I, we set it
up that he, he answers the phone.
So I picked up the phone,
oh, it's Heidi Klum.
She wants you to come, you know,
and he's all excited and the whole
big long 10 minute thing that I did.
And and so they set it up and, and they
said he's going day before, he's gonna
be looking for Heidi here at the, at
the facility where they filmed the show.
So they had him looking in, in
trunks, you know, lighting trunks
and sticking his head in curtains.
They put up a computer and it showed
pictures of her kissing other animals
so that he would be jealous, you
know, and he did everything perfectly.
And I, and then my friends from big
Horse Productions Eric Marinovich
he helped me and they were there
and I said, let's, let's practice.
They were holding a poop.
He jumped through a hoop with paper
and broke through the paper and even
practiced this in the, in the parking lot.
You know, I had to go find something
that he could land on and not slip,
and everything was going so well.
And then the next day and when I
went to pick him up, he was not
interested in taking any cookies.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh.
David Lichman: And this, and I
don't know what was wrong, I think
later found that the people in
the, in the stall next to her had
tossed a bunch of hay into his pen.
And, and he must have gotten sick
on the hay because he, unlike him.
To, I mean, the, the, the last
thing that will ever happen would
be that he would refuse a cookie.
He is, he is massively food motivated.
So I told the producers,
I said, I can't do it.
You know, we did the rehearsal.
I said, he's not, he's not doing anything.
And they said, oh, you know,
bad rehearsal, good show.
And he said, I'm not gonna do it.
But I will sit here and wait my turn.
And so you, you wait it's hurry
up and wait in the movie and tv.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So around about, you know, two
o'clock in the afternoon, he
started like asking for cookies
and he started to pick up his ball.
And I thought maybe, maybe it'll work.
And that was probably a mistake because
he really did not, he was not interested.
And
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
David Lichman: And it was quite,
I had to, you know, buffoon it.
I had to, you know, do the stuff
for him and make a thing out of it.
But it was quite embarrassing for me.
I don't care about being embarrassed.
I don't care about him not doing it.
What I care about is nobody got to
see how brilliant he actually is.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
David Lichman: You know, so
that, that so much effort.
If somebody asked me to do it again,
I would say, you know, I don't think
I could put that much effort into it.
It took so much effort and so I
sort of lost a desire to perform.
And that leaves me, you know, with kind of
a whole, which is why I started, you know,
maybe why I started doing more music.
And I've, and, and the
music is taking that.
Piece for me.
So the horses are not actually doing
that much at the moment, but the
teaching, the students are getting
better and better and better.
And the students are carrying this stuff.
So my horsemanship is, is coming alive.
And my legacy, if there is one, is coming
alive through the students, they're,
they're doing stuff that I can't do now.
Rupert Isaacson: Like what?
David Lichman: Well, just to certain
maneuvers and certain you know,
I'm teaching them how to do off
center circles, you know, where the
horse horse does a circle in his
own, but you're not in the middle.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
I,
David Lichman: I can't do that.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: I mean, I know how
to do it, but I don't, I I don't
have any horses that, that have
done it, and I've never done it.
I, I taught people how to do it.
So.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Well, I think by teaching people how
to do it, that is kind of doing it.
David Lichman: It is.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: I, I can just point to them
and say, look how good they're doing this.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So we haven't actually
talked about your musical career at all.
So just for viewers and listeners,
David Litman's also a pro
jazz guitarist as it happens.
'cause why not?
Why not add that to the list of things?
David Lichman: I
Rupert Isaacson: play
David Lichman: the bass guitar,
Rupert Isaacson: so if you are
looking for a bassist, you know.
David Lichman: No, no.
Don't call me.
I'm too busy.
So, so the, the music thing took
a turn a couple years ago for me.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah.
David Lichman: I decided I wanted
to play some more and I started
playing and doing different stuff.
But the, this gal that we've just been
talking about, Gabriela from Poland
I had no idea that she was a singer.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: And she, she, she
has extreme talent in singing jazz.
And we just started, you know,
fooling around with it at some point.
And I said, oh my God, this
is the missing piece for me.
So I've had to step up in
what I am playing to be able
to play for her, what she
Rupert Isaacson: can't sing.
David Lichman: And yeah.
And she doesn't like rehearsing.
She does, you know, when I,
I'm struggling, so I'll play a
piece like 10 times and she'll
be going, God, that one again.
I said, okay, you don't have to sing it.
I just have to play it.
You go in the other room or go play with
us, go play with Papino or something.
But, but, but what we came up with
was this idea about playing the bass
and singing with no other instruments.
Rupert Isaacson: Ooh.
David Lichman: So this, it's as open
and pure as you can get, puts tremendous
pressure on me to outline the harmonies,
because the bass player usually just
plunking wing, boom, boom, boom.
I have to be able to outline the harmonies
and played double stops and chords.
And I'm, I'm, it's, I'm growing
in ways that I never thought I, I
could even, and there are people
who can do it way better than me.
But I'm doing it.
Rupert Isaacson: That was
Lemi Kilminster, wasn't it?
Of Motorhead.
He, he, he basically reinvented the
bass guitar as a rhythm and lead guitar.
David Lichman: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
David Lichman: There's, there's tons
of people doing it way better than me.
Now.
There's tapping and there's all kinds of,
there's people doing it greater than me.
But I, but I have a purpose
for doing it because I have, I
have to provide acomp for her.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: And it's
and it's really fun.
So that's what we're doing.
I'm doing that,
Rupert Isaacson: that Do
we get to hear your music?
Where do we get to hear your music?
How do we hear your music?
David Lichman: I'll send you a clip.
You can put it on the
Rupert Isaacson: Is is, is it on YouTube?
Like, could people YouTube find it?
David Lichman: I hope not.
I'm embarrassed.
Rupert Isaacson: I'll tell you
what, then your music gets mine.
'Cause I've got a band.
And yeah.
All right, we'll, we'll
David Lichman: I'll send you a clip and
you can include it in the podcast if you
Rupert Isaacson: like.
Yeah, it'd be great.
That'd be great.
Love to meet Gabriela, making
David Lichman: sure.
Yeah.
Oh, you'll, I'm sure you will.
We are we're coming to Europe, actually.
But when are you gonna be here?
I'm gonna be there in end
of June through August.
But I don't think we're
gonna get to Spain.
We're getting close.
We're going to Avon.
We're gonna go see Fred Pinon.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: But I don't
Rupert Isaacson: think you're
just gonna go see him as a mate,
or you're gonna go see him as
a
Rupert Isaacson: professionally.
David Lichman: I don't know what
the difference is, but he invited
Rupert Isaacson: so well, are you gonna
go do a gig together or are you gonna
David Lichman: No, no, no, no.
Rupert Isaacson: All alright.
Alright.
David Lichman: We're gonna go.
I met him.
I met him when he first
started Caval here.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: And and they,
they were so nice to me, but I
didn't think he even remembered
because that's like 20 years ago.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
David Lichman: yeah, yeah.
And, and when and when we
connected they were so nice to me.
So, oh, come, we'll have lunch,
we'll play with the horses.
We'll spend the day.
I mean it
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
they are extremely nice.
Those two.
David Lichman: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I need to get them.
So I
David Lichman: don't know if it's still
there, but in Austin so when Jennifer
closed her facility in, in Moss landing
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
David Lichman: Or I think one
of her sea lions had already
gone to the zoo there, they were
putting in a massive new exhibit.
Mm-hmm.
And I think the other three went.
So there was four of her sea lions
from that are in the Houston Zoo.
And
Rupert Isaacson: are they
David Lichman: through a miracle?
Her top trainer got a job at the zoo.
So those animals, you know, her
training is different anyway.
If they had to go and endure somebody
else's, you know, weird training, it
wouldn't have been great for them.
But they have exactly the person that
they know and the training that they know
Rupert Isaacson: serendipitous.
David Lichman: And when you go and
when you're walking through the
Houston terminal, it's I forget
what's the name of that terminal?
It was
Rupert Isaacson: Bush probably
David Lichman: it's,
Rupert Isaacson: it's,
David Lichman: you're right,
Rupert Isaacson: yes.
David Lichman: There was this
massive wall advertising the zoo.
And I, one of those Sea Lion
is giving someone a kiss in
the, is on the wall at Houston.
When you go in, you, well we
Rupert Isaacson: actually, I go to Houston
Zoo quite often actually with Rowan.
Because the zoo's on thing,
David Lichman: they
still advertise it there.
You'll see that, you know,
that's one of Jennifer Sea Lion.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you
know, in the years that.
Have passed since you did that gig
for us, which was, we were so grateful
for, I dunno if you know much about
how the organization has grown, but
basically there's now three programs.
There's delivering this neuroscience
neuroplasticity thing, horse
boy method, mounted with a kid
movement method, no horse at all.
Do it in the home, do it in
a school, do it wherever.
And then something called takin
equine integration or the in hand
work, or the classical in hand work
as its own therapy for people with
trauma, adult autism, and so on.
And these all happened organically,
but suffice to say, now we work
in about 40 countries and we serve
probably about 300,000 families.
Wow.
So, not me personally, but the people
that we've trained to do what we do.
Yeah.
And in some cases, you know, governments
are getting on board and things.
I have to ask you this, would you do
another fundraiser for us at some point?
Sure.
Whatever, whatever it is.
David Lichman: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't have the, I never
have the entertaining horse.
I, I, I could bring you the mini horse.
Rupert Isaacson: I think
that would be fantastic
David Lichman: because I think he, he
he could, I was gonna go, I was gonna
bring all the horses to the International
Liberty Horse Association this fall.
But I, I just, well, I, I,
I backed myself off of it.
I just decided it's not, it's not
the right answer for me anymore.
And I don't think it's fair
to the horses to make them
travel for three, three weeks.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, 2, 2, 2 of
our best campuses for our programs
are actually in Northern California.
Square Peg Foundation in Half
Moon Bay, and then they have
a second campus in Sonoma.
And they do just sterling work.
They're a registered mental health
provider now for San Mateo County.
And, but bootstrapped up from nothing.
Yeah, woman, A woman called Joel Dunlap.
David Lichman: Yeah, I
could do something down
Rupert Isaacson: there.
Could we do something there for them?
David Lichman: Sure, sure.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: There's a beach.
You could do something on the beach.
David Lichman: Maybe
Rupert Isaacson: your mini
doesn't swim to Honolulu that
David Lichman: they I'm
going to Sonoma in two weeks.
Actually.
I, a woman that I know that I, you
know, used to help her with her
horses is living down there and
I'm just gonna go visit with her.
Rupert Isaacson: That would be fantastic.
If you, if you'd be willing, that
would be because they're, they're such
an amazing, because it's, 'cause it's
gone from, you know, us and our ranch
to now us more training people and
all these incredible facilities who
do what we do who are the real heroes.
And
David Lichman: I, that's
what I used to say.
I mean, I said it at your place.
I said, I'm not doing the hard work.
You know, t's doing the hard work.
I'm just bringing awareness and raising
a little money, but the, the day-to-day,
the hard work is being done by somebody.
Way more dedicated than me.
Yeah.
So this is, this is what I can do.
So I'm doing it.
But the idea is you know, I love it.
And I, and I'm especially drawn to
the work being done with veterans.
We have two organizations
that, that I raised money for.
When I came back from that tour,
I, I I did a mustache challenge.
I said, if I raise $10,000,
I'll shave off this mustache.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: And I raised
10,000 in the first day.
Well, this is Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: A lot of
people rose to that occasion.
Yeah.
David Lichman: You know,
well there was one very, one
very generous donor actually.
She said, my husband just sold
his antique car collection.
He was looking for something
to do with the money.
He's a veteran and he, you know, he
wants to put this, so, so all that
money got raised on the first day and I
said, well, what are we gonna do next?
So we, the guy that runs one of
the other organizations, he was a
Vietnam vet and he had a mustache.
And he said, I've kept this mustache
in honor of my buddy who was killed
next to me in the helicopter, was shot
and killed, and I've been wearing this
mustache commemoration event, but if
we get to 25,000, I'll shave mine too.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: So we got to 25,000
and we both shaved our mustaches
and I thought, I'm liberated.
I never have to wear this thing again.
And then three days later I said, I
can't look at myself in the mirror.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you
have to wear a merkin?
Like a little, A little?
David Lichman: No, I did not.
There's a word that not
many people know, by the
Rupert Isaacson: way.
Indeed, indeed, indeed.
And it doesn't actually mean that my
friends, but you can go look it up.
We won't tell you.
David Lichman: I know what it means.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
David Lichman: Why
Rupert Isaacson: the audience?
I know.
You know what it means.
Yeah.
David Lichman: I know what it
means because my British friend
told me that, that George W.
Bush used to say he was
proud to be American.
Rupert Isaacson: That's where I was going.
Yeah.
Every, every Brit that hears
that, me, American, you
American, is like, I don't know.
Are you wearing one?
Do you, are you buying them off Amazon?
I mean, what do you do?
They come in 24 packs.
I mean, yeah.
David Lichman: Can
Rupert Isaacson: I choose
different, different
David Lichman: colors?
Different colors?
Yeah.
So, so the, the veterans, the
thi the work I've seen done
with veterans is mind blowing.
Absolutely mind.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Oh yeah.
Without a doubt.
Without a doubt.
We, we fell into it.
We, and we work with, you
know, so many people with
different groups of trauma also.
So we work with the, the, the Bundes
Fair, the German army, the US Air
Force, the Dutch Defense Force with
a ex-Marine group in, in the uk.
But I find that also one of the
really unsung or underserved
populations for this is it's not just
so we, we don't just do veterans.
We do active duty and active duty
and their families, particularly
the Special forces guys.
'cause they're not allowed
to talk about what they did.
So they have to come home and not talk.
You can imagine that's a recipe for
massive success in a family, right?
So we run these camps in East Germany
aimed at putting that back together.
So work with the kids, work with
the, work with the, you know, service
people themselves and altogether,
but it's also first responders.
And our original ranch in Texas,
we kind of moved the operation
over to a friend's place, literally
two minutes down the road.
And they're still running with
one of our original horses,
actually still still rolling there.
And that happens to be run by a
couple where he is a very senior
fireman in the Austin Fire Department.
And I, you know, I didn't realize
he'd say, oh, they're firemen.
Yeah, they're all heroes, da
da da, police, great first
responders, paramedics.
But then you actually talk to them about
what they do and it's like, man, you are
just scraping brains off the freeway every
Saturday night and trying not to disappear
down into Avo, a vodka bottle, you know?
Okay, okay, we should be doing stuff here.
Mm-hmm.
And so that's, that's, that's a population
I want to start really looking to towards.
'cause we, we absolutely
rely on these people.
We, we sure, we rely on our
servicemen as, and women as well.
But the first responders, man, I mean,
if they're not there, you know, when
you need them, what are you gonna do?
So.
Yeah.
And I, I, I know that Joel in
California there at, with square
peg, she's starting to work in that.
So maybe, maybe we'll look, maybe
when we do something we should do,
should look at this a little bit.
Yeah,
David Lichman: yeah, yeah, yeah.
The, the people in California
we raised that we, how
Rupert Isaacson: much to
shave your mustache this time?
How much your mustache
David Lichman: This is, you know,
the, the only place so there's
a guy, there's probably the best
bass player in the entire world.
His name's Ron Carter.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: Plays upright bass.
I don't play the upright bass,
but somebody asked him to play the
opening line of So what or something
that he played on a record, and
he says, no, I already did that.
He, he, he won't do it again.
He said, I already did that.
I'm, I'm just, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
David Lichman: So, so
the only place where I,
Rupert Isaacson: okay,
this time I need you.
We, we'll shave some other part of you.
You knew that was coming,
then you may need the merkin.
David Lichman: Maybe it's,
maybe it's already done.
Rupert Isaacson: No comeback.
No comeback.
Yeah.
David Lichman: In, in the music
is the one place I can, I can keep
doing the same thing because I get
so much joy out of that one thing.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm not good enough
to say, okay, I did that.
I need to do something, I
need to do that one again.
'cause I get that feeling from that
same thing that I've been practicing.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm lucky in that way that
I don't always have to be
striving for new, but, you know,
mustache challenge, probably not.
I, I, you know, just, I, I want to
Rupert Isaacson: a different, a
different type of mustache maybe.
David Lichman: Yeah.
Prob probably, I would probably go again
and try to take it off again all the way.
What?
I mean it was
Rupert Isaacson: maybe for a hundred k
David Lichman: maybe it's, it's, it's
a I mean, it, it was a whole thing.
I, I have a friend who
Rupert Isaacson: it's a real
loss of identity though.
My dad has always had a mustache.
We always used to suggest
he looks like Saddam Hussein
and we suggest we're looking
David Lichman: for him.
Alright, so we'll say goodbye.
Thank you very much everybody.
Thank you.
Thank you all very much.
Okay, so, so, we go, now let me
make a pause so you can edit.
So I got, I got the call.
To take my miniature horse to do
a show called Stupid Pet Tricks.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: It, it was
based on the, the segment that
Dave Letterman did for years.
He'd bring a dog on and do, do
some stupid petrick, and then
they would play it in slow motion.
And so, so they hired this is where
it gets X-rated, by the way, they,
they, hi, they hired Sarah Silverman
to host it, you know Sarah Silverman?
Okay,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I do.
Yeah,
David Lichman: yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, so we get on the phone with the
producers and I'm, and I'm trying to
figure out, you know, like, what can we
do to really be, make it funny, you know?
And my, my assistant is on the
phone with me, and and I said,
you know, I said, I can train.
I, if you will you know, you, if
you, you will stand up on two blocks.
I'm gonna, I'll say, I'm going to have
Pepino go underneath your legs, but I'll
train him to stop and look up your skirt.
And then I'll ask him,
you like what you see?
And have him go, yes, right.
Dead silence.
The producer's dead silent, dead silent.
And, and Patina gets on the phone.
She says, you, you can't talk about this.
I said, and it's Sarah Silverman.
No, they're trying to make it family
friendly, and she's trying to turn
a new leaf, and she's trying to
give it a new image for herself,
and you can't keep doing that.
So I said, okay, so then, then
you're talking for a while.
And I said, I have another idea.
I said, you put your purse on the
ground and I'll train him to reach in
and pull out, you know, a vibrator or
dildo or something and bring it to you.
Right.
And she said, you cannot
do this in good behavior.
Rupert Isaacson: So he's
flip the red rag to the bull.
So now you double down.
Yeah.
David Lichman: Yes, exactly.
So we, we go for the, the
thing we're filming the pilot.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, so they do go for it?
They go for idea.
David Lichman: No, no.
They, they didn't, they
didn't tell me what to do.
I, I, he, he was gonna, he
puts on basketball sneakers
and he dunks a basketball.
That's the main goal.
And then he sits in a chair,
so she's gonna interview him.
So, okay.
We sit him in the chair and they do an
interview, which was from a training
perspective, I was not prepared.
I prepared for everything, but they
wanted me, didn't want me on camera, so
I had to be behind the camera, queuing
the horse to stay in the chair and wait.
Yes and no.
And it, it, it, that part of it was quite
funny because he's sitting in the chair
and, and and, and I worked my way back
and, you know, like six feet away, or two
meters away, and then three meters away.
And they say, no, no more, more.
And I says, I know he's gonna
get up and he's not getting up.
And she says to him, she says, you know,
wouldn't you rather be out running in
the fields, playing with your friends
and sitting here on some TV show?
And he gets up and walks.
It's been been better.
Right.
So anyway, so that, that's what I pitched.
So I, I, come on.
And and they said, you're gonna come
from, from behind the camera off stage.
When she calls you, you're gonna come out.
And I said, okay.
I said, can I ask him to, to you know,
walk fancy, walk in a Spanish walk in?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: And they said, yeah, sure.
So he comes in doing his Spanish walk,
and she looks at him and looks at me and
she goes, you taught him to Goose step?
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
David Lichman: I said, no, it's like
Rupert Isaacson: ballet.
Yes.
I a Jew taught my horse to Goose step.
David Lichman: Right.
And she, of course, the same.
Turns out she, she grew up in the same
town where my dad was born, where my
grandfather went to work on a farm.
Yeah.
Up in New Hampshire.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, interesting.
David Lichman: Anyway, so, so I said,
no, it's like ballet, it's Jean.
Be, it's you know this,
it's a beautiful thing.
And said, okay, so, so we, we, we, we,
she's interviewing me and talking to me,
and, and they give me no instructions.
And they, and they say, you know, she's,
you, you know, why are you looking at me?
You, you, the camera's over there,
you know, it's like giving me stage
directions, embarrassing, trying
to embarrass me, all this stuff.
And so she says, okay, let's you
know, why the miniature, why the
little horse when the obvious point of
attraction is right under your nose?
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: And I said.
Well, it's kind of a signature thing.
You know, circus, the circus
Ringmaster has curled, you know,
the big candle bar mustache.
And she said, well, that's interesting.
She said, so if, if I, if I wanted
to ride your, your little horse,
how how much would that cost?
I said, well, you know, he's,
you're too big to ride him.
I do have other horses to ride,
but, but if, you know, if you were,
if someone was small enough, you
know, you could ride him for free.
And she looked at me and she said,
well, how much for a mustache ride?
And I, and all this stuff going
through my head about the,
Rupert Isaacson: she
set that whole thing up.
Block, block, block, block.
Yeah.
David Lichman: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: That's the
writer's mind right there.
Yeah.
David Lichman: Right.
I, I, I had it all prepared
and I was told, no, squash it.
So I said, well, the
mustache rides are also free.
And she goes, I thought, we thought
that was the, they're always free.
And I thought that was a
very bad business model.
So it went downhill from there.
I mean, she just kept going.
She's one of
Rupert Isaacson: my heroes.
Yeah,
David Lichman: yeah.
She just kept going at me and she
said, you know, I'd say something.
She says, I'm doing the jokes here.
And she then she'd turned and
she'd say, you know, working
with you is like working with a
professional comedy writer from 1983.
So that's my dirty story.
You can publish it or not as you wish.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, just also
the fact that, that you, you did
it with Sarah Silverman hats off.
I'm not worthy.
Here I am.
David Lichman: I felt, I felt like,
oh, when I said the cucumber thing, she
looked at me and she said, nice one.
So I got a nice one.
That's a, the high, the rest of the
time she mopped the floor with me.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
David Lichman: We were
putting on Kainos shoes.
They wanted to do it on camera,
and it's really hard to do.
And my friend Jay and I are down
there trying to get these shoes on and
she's feeding the horse cookies and
she's, she's saying all this stuff.
She says, you know, I
wish I had a, a couple of.
Nearly elderly gentlemen
to put my shoes on for me.
Thank you for the nearly, we're down
there sweating bullets, trying to get
these little sneakers on the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: How long ago was that?
David Lichman: That was before
America's Got Talent before COVID.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: It, it was right
at the beginning of COVID.
Must have been 2020 because Oh my
God, the COVID tests to go on set.
They, they were sticking stuff
up my nose every 10 minutes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It seems like another world now.
Another time.
David Lichman: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: David,
this has been brilliant.
Look, we are at two hours, 10 minutes.
We could go on and we could go on.
So I think what we need to do
is actually have a second round.
David Lichman: You can
also make two outta this.
Rupert Isaacson: No, I like, I
like the long, the long format.
No, no.
There's just more.
There's just more to do.
So I think what, what we should, what we
should do is we should promise the, the
lads and the lasses watching this, that
listening to this, that we'll have David
on again for if, if he's willing to for
more dirty stories with Sarah Silverman.
I want another 10 of those.
David Lichman: I'll have to make those.
I'll have to go
Rupert Isaacson: find it.
You can, you can.
How will we know if they're true or not?
And, to maybe go into some, some,
some further detail on the training.
You know, what's, what, what was standing
out for me a lot in what you were saying
is the great thing about doing a podcast,
obviously it's just a brilliant excuse
to talk to loads of interesting people
who, whose work you like and admire.
Right?
And so
as you were talking and you're talking
about your curiosity and all these
different areas of life, which then
you bring into the horses, whether it's
different cultures or whether it's music
or whether it's showmanship or whether
it's history or whether it's certain
philosophical concepts or so forth.
As you know, if you read the great
Masters, the old masters which I
always encourage people to do, starting
with Xenophon, there are actually
masters before Xenophon, but we only
have clay fragments from this man
Kali in baby in Nineveh, in Babylon
in 1350 or 75 BC He's keeping the
the stable for the Hitite Kings.
But we've got a bit of his book, but
Zenon we know is the one who is the
progenitor of the European Western
horsemanship slash dressage tradition.
And he of course is a philosopher.
People in the horse world go, oh
yeah, Zenon, he was this horse guy.
It's like, well, actually he was a student
of Socrates and Best, well, I dunno if he
was best mates, but he was classmates with
Plato and they, he was also a soldier.
They were all soldiers actually,
including Socrates, that he had
to be in those Greek cities.
And he's also taught as the
master of the tactical withdrawal.
So if you go to West Point Academy or
Sandhurst Academy training to be an
officer, they will teach you Xenophon as
military technology for how to get your
army out of trouble intact without while
delivering, you know, as much damage
as possible to the guys pursuing you.
So he talks about how what this type of
three multi-dimensional horse training
requires of a human is emotional control,
emo control of your emotions, and
therefore it's very, very good for hot
blooded, young entitled aristocratic
men to do because it helps them to.
Keep their shit together.
And then of course, we see this
theme again and again, it comes
up in the Renaissance with the
academies and down in Naples.
And people like Elli Elle going back to
the French King and saying, you know what?
Our aristocracy are out control.
All they do is fight jewels with each
other and civil wars, and they don't
pay their taxes, you know, and we'll
never rival Spain, you know, until
we get control of our economy, which
is in the hands of these idiots.
I propose four riding academies
for the youth of these guys to
teach them emotional control.
And the king goes for it, which is
why we have all the French names
in dressage and why we even call
it dressage and so on and so on.
And this comes all the way down this
kind of philosophical, basically the
horses and the humanities together.
And I think, I wasn't expecting this
as, as part of the conversation, but
you've really brought all of that
together, but in such a human way.
And I love that you can go from basically,
you know, compassion to mustache ride with
Sarah Silverman, to jazz bass to liberty
training on the beach, to, you know,
exploring, you know, how we can perhaps
be better to each other as well as 12.
David Lichman: Yeah.
I think the one thing that the horses
are, that, that, that are, that
they are they, they will ensure.
You have some humility.
If you don't have humility, you're
not gonna, you're not gonna succeed.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that
they're certainly going to,
they're gonna hand it to you.
Yes.
Regardless.
David Lichman: Yeah.
So the people who have are two
arrogant are, are going to, they're
gonna fall down at some point.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Yeah, for
David Lichman: sure.
But you, just for clarity, Sarah Silverman
did not accept the mustache ride for free.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I think you should add yet to the, to the,
David Lichman: yet
Rupert Isaacson: we're
allowed to be optimistic.
I think the horses also
teach us to be optimistic.
Do they not?
David Lichman: Also, you know, you,
you're talking about the history
of Xenophon and all those yeah.
I didn't mention that Gabriela has a, a
a degree in classical philology, which
is something I didn't even know existed.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
David Lichman: But she had to learn
ancient Greece and ancient Latin to,
to complete her four years of studying.
What is
Rupert Isaacson: philology?
David Lichman: Yeah.
It's that classical hi history of
like ancient Greece and, and Roman.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's more
than just the history though.
Wouldn't that just be history?
What's philology?
David Lichman: Yeah.
I don't,
Rupert Isaacson: is it a bloat called,
is it like a bloke called Phil?
David Lichman: Phil?
No, I think it's Philos
meaning love, love of,
Rupert Isaacson: love of ah, right.
Ancient history.
She and I would definitely get along.
I I did my degree.
David Lichman: We can look it up here.
I'm gonna look up what is philology?
Rupert Isaacson: It makes you think
of this bloke down the pub called
Phil, who you got to know all about
him, and there's like a pub quiz and
you get tested on your philology.
David Lichman: The study of language
in historical, oral written sources,
combining literary criticism, history
and linguistics to analyze the
development structure and authenticity.
Authenticity of text often
described as the love of words.
Okay.
Okay.
Ah, we focus on interpreting
ancient or literary text with
their cultural context with strong
ties to etymology key examples.
Okay,
Rupert Isaacson: wonderful.
David Lichman: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I think
we need her run the show.
Maybe you should both come
on with Sarah Silverman
David Lichman: next time.
Next time.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
David Lichman: You, you let
me, Sarah Silverman, I'll,
I'll I'll buy you two beers.
Rupert Isaacson: If I, if I could
do that miraculously you would shave
off two mustaches or, or, or regrow
the, where it's already shaved.
Yeah.
David Lichman: Yeah, I will.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
David Lichman: You, you, the, the whole
key about animal training is motivation.
See, you now, you, now you've uncovered a
motivator and now you want to exploit it.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
I am the good place.
David Lichman: You learn.
Well, my son
Rupert Isaacson: David
does not leave the room.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, listen, thank you so much.
It's been brilliant.
Would you come on again?
David Lichman: Yes, absolutely.
And I'll try to hook
up with you in Sonoma.
Okay.
And may we'll see where I am in, in
I have like three days unaccounted
for when I'm before I go to Vienna.
So maybe, maybe I'll be.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Or maybe I can come to, you know, one of
your gigs, you know, let's, let's see what
David Lichman: we can do.
Oh, yeah, those are fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I'd love to,
David Lichman: I'll send you that.
I'll send you a video of some music.
I'll send you a video
of my horseplay music.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, please.
Maybe we can include that in the
in the intros, in the outros.
David Lichman: Yeah, I will I'll
send it all to you after we hang up.
Thank you so much.
It really has been as much
fun as I thought it would be,
because I remember the last time
we were together, it was fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
Till the next time.
David Lichman: Ciao.
Rupert Isaacson: Have a great
rest of the day, my friend.
All right.
Bye-bye.
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