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The Be The Church Podcast is for spiritual leaders who want to be challenged to lead like Jesus in everyday places—at home, in your church, at school, and in the workplace. Hosted by Be The Church founder Joel Wayne and Chapel Pointe pastor Luke Bilberry, each episode features bold, authentic conversations with business and ministry leaders that are rooted in Scripture. You'll learn how to expand your spiritual influence and leverage your leadership to advance the Kingdom of God. Let's be the church together! For more information, visit bethechurch.org/podcast.
So I would say don't confuse correlation with causation. And I'm gonna unpack that a little bit. Yeah, please. I think what happens is we we think that we can actually cause a move of God when we cannot. Mhmm.
Michael Rubino:Or we say since we can't cause anything, we don't
Luke Bilberry:do anything. When we begin to compare, we're actually elevating we're claiming rights. Yeah. I should. I put in the work.
Larry Mayberry:Get out of your study on a regular rhythm and be in the streets. Go with your people and with nonbelievers in your community. So if you don't have friends who are nonbelievers in your community, you need to go make them now.
Luke Bilberry:If you are not placing yourself in places where you're engaging with non Christians, then you probably need to check your identity and where you're finding your security because that that is a really important thing because what you're saying, Larry, and what I'm hearing you, it's exactly what God himself has done. Well, hey, thanks for joining us. My name is Luke, we're excited to have a conversation with pastor Larry and pastor Michael Rubino. These brothers from New York have been leading a ministry, and we get to have a very real, practical, honest conversation about how do we make sure our identity is rooted in the right thing. We can find our identity in so many things and what we do, but we wanna make sure our identity is rooted in Christ, to be the spiritual leaders God has called us to be.
Luke Bilberry:And so we're glad you joined us, and we're gonna jump into this conversation. So I heard this quote one time, this conversation between John Tyson and Tim Keller, and he says, You have to realize that New York City, it's bigger than you. And if you're gonna move and try to plant a church and to have a massive impact, the city's always gonna be bigger than you. But yet sometimes in our work in ministry, can actually We can think we're Jesus. We can think that we're the answer and the solution to our neighborhood or to our borough or whatever.
Luke Bilberry:Larry, in your experience, what would you say, like stepping in into hard places to do ministry work, how do you navigate the call, this huge call of God, and the reality of who you are in Christ?
Larry Mayberry:I think for Lindsay and I, my wife, as we stepped into the animal that is New York City, we had really good advice early on to be present in our neighborhood. So New York City is a big animal, no doubt about But New York City on a neighborhood level functions a lot like a small town. And it's very neighborhood centric. So in that sense, there are about 400 tiny little expressions of New York City all across the five boroughs. About 400 neighborhoods.
Larry Mayberry:And also about 400 subway stops too, which is not Those two are synonymous.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, right.
Larry Mayberry:And so for us, I think one of the things that really helped was practicing the art of presence in our neighborhood, and that's actually become part of the identity of who we are as a church too. Our church is present in our neighborhood, and it helps you in some ways as a person to know that what I'm doing, I struggle to say it's not that important because we are in the business of people and people are important. What I mean is I don't want to get too caught up that like, as a church planter in New York City, people call me their missionary, pastors call me their hero. Like it's some silly stuff that I know is also not true. They don't know what heroes are.
Larry Mayberry:They just say that, you
Michael Rubino:know? Right.
Larry Mayberry:What they mean is like, I would have never done that. That's what they mean. Yeah, they're trying to be encouraging. But it reminds you when you're present in the neighborhood, when you focus on the people whom God has called you to reach in a smaller section, it helps you not to think too highly of yourself, which is a scriptural method.
Luke Bilberry:Right.
Larry Mayberry:That we do not think too highly of ourselves. And so that is one way that we've tried to handle the animal that is New York City. I will say, moving to my new position as executive director of the MYBA, that's going to be a new challenge because now, instead of where we're church planting, it's like when you're sitting at a table with friends having dinner, and sometimes you get an important text, you take your mind off the conversation for a few minutes, and you look at the text, and then everybody starts laughing, you're trying to finish. You finish up your text, you look up, and everyone's talking, and they've moved on. And you're like, Wait, wait, where were you guys?
Larry Mayberry:That kind of thing. I feel like that's how church planting was for us. We've had our head down for the past fifteen years doing our neighborhood. You're Doing our block. And now at this role, look up and I'm like, have you seen what's going on around this city?
Larry Mayberry:So it's harder to stay super present in our neighborhood, which is why I like pastoring too while I'm doing this job. But that's one way we've tried to deal with the animal of it being so big. You just got to focus in your neighborhood, which is why we need hundreds more churches in the city, because there are some neighborhoods in New York City that don't have English speaking gospel Center churches. Yeah. That's not what this podcast is about,
Luke Bilberry:but yeah. No, but that's exciting work too, of again, how do we help leaders live into those spaces? How do we help encourage? That's what Be the Church is all about, right? We want to empower spiritual leadership, see folks like that raised up, and so we're excited that you're getting help lead that charge with the MNYBA, and really excited to see how God is going to use that ministry and those relationships, especially, know, God's on the move.
Luke Bilberry:Everything I'm seeing and hearing about what God's doing in the New York area, and the reality is God's moving all across the world. That's true. And I know we could have this conversation with you guys, and y'all have this focus on Long Island and then in the city, and now you're thinking about all the boroughs, what God's doing across the metro area.
Larry Mayberry:And you can switch out these seats with people you know, from Detroit, and they can tell you the same
Luke Bilberry:thing that's going
Michael Rubino:on in Detroit,
Larry Mayberry:you know, and cities all over the world.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. So when we think about that work that God has called us to, and I love that you said, you know, to not think more highly of ourselves as the scripture calls us to. It reminds me too of like John three thirty, that He must increase and I must decrease. Michael, like what's been your experience and where, maybe we start with where we get it wrong, and then we can try to reverse engineer ways so that we don't make this, put our insecurities or our identity in Where the wrong do you see ministry leaders put their identity in the wrong things where they try to increase their name instead of the name of Jesus? Where are seeing some of those moments?
Michael Rubino:First of want say, by and large, I don't think that it's intentional or malicious, Right? There's always a few bad apples in any job or career or whatever your vocation. But I think by and large, most pastors desire to be humble and most start out seeking the lower seat. And then they think through a confluence of circumstances and how they're interacted with, it starts to shift inside. Right.
Michael Rubino:So, part of it is internal. And so part of it is like we live for the attaboys. Uh-huh. Right? And so we find out what gets us that, and then we start repeating that as opposed to letting the spirit lead.
Michael Rubino:Yeah. And then when we have an off Sunday, we have I ask myself this question all the time. If I preach a sermon that I think completely bombed, but like three people got saved that day in church, would I consider it a bad day? Yeah. It's a heart check question.
Larry Mayberry:It is our question.
Michael Rubino:Who's it about? And the truth is I live in a tension where sometimes I'm not sure how I want to answer that. And so I just kind of wrestle with that. Then part of it is just being a man in our culture, right? So if you notice, what do men ask each other when they meet?
Michael Rubino:What do you do for a living? So let me determine how I value you as a person based on what you do for a living. So, let's just zoom out and say that's the air we breathe.
Larry Mayberry:Yep.
Michael Rubino:Okay? Now, you get in the zero into pastors. Where do you pastor? How big is your church? Right?
Michael Rubino:And so we judge how effective you are based on things that have nothing to do with spiritual effectiveness. Right. So, I think part of it is this internal thing that we have to We want to lead well. We want to be And the other part of it is this cultural pressure to somehow justify what we do for Jesus.
Larry Mayberry:And
Michael Rubino:so that, it's not easy to live in that tension all the time. As long as we fail and we start considering ourselves, our worth is what we do for God, not who we are in God. And that's always like a gut check for me every three to five years. I don't think I have to It's coming again. I'm sure it'll come back around.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Yeah. Hey, am I walking instead of the spirit? You know, and you know the passage talks about, are we walking in a manner worthy of our calling, right? Are stepping into that, taking those next steps, making sure we're dialed into, and there's that constant, because, you know, we've talked about this before, but transformation's that continual process.
Luke Bilberry:God's continually refining the process and sanctifications that the book of Romans talks about.
Michael Rubino:Me just be really real. I'm going have a vulnerable moment. Oh, please. Okay? And so there's a particular church that I know some staff members, I'll be really, really honest.
Michael Rubino:I don't care for them. Now, I got to really check my heart even now. Yeah. And recently, and I've been wrestling with this now for weeks, I talked to somebody who goes to that church and they're exploding. And I was ticked.
Michael Rubino:And then I was just internally humiliated with my lack of spiritual maturity. It's about as raw as I can get. I don't know who's watching this, but I'm just a sinner saved by grace. And I went home and told my wife and I said, I'm a complete failure. Like, I wasn't excited.
Michael Rubino:People are getting saved. And because I don't believe in the person leading the movement, God could hit a straight shot with a crooked stick. It's not my place to judge anyone else. And I've been wrestling with this now for two to three weeks. To this moment, saying it going, I don't know if I have the right spirit yet.
Larry Mayberry:Yeah. That's why he invited the pastor of that church, me on this trip with Larry.
Michael Rubino:It is not Larry Bainberry.
Luke Bilberry:Oh, I love it. But when I think about that, one, man, thank you for your honesty and vulnerability because that's something that I think can lack sometimes in conversations with spiritual leaders is we feel like we have to have the answers, right? We feel like our identity is the thing. We have to have our act together. We have to look the part, play the part, talk the part.
Luke Bilberry:So one thing's for vulnerability and the honesty in that, that hey, there may be tensions. We see Scripture, there's tensions where Paul and John Mark, and there's conversations and tensions in how ministry operates, but the reality is your church is a small part of God's bigger church.
Michael Rubino:That's right.
Luke Bilberry:So that No matter
Larry Mayberry:how big your church is.
Michael Rubino:Yeah. No matter
Luke Bilberry:how small part. That's exactly right. For all history, all of eternity, it's His church, His kingdom, His people, and we just get to play small parts of that body, that local expression. Right? I appreciate that.
Luke Bilberry:Just even how do we make sure our identity is anchored in Jesus Christ and not in our securities? It's calling out the sin and repenting of that.
Michael Rubino:I've got to be honest. Confess your faults one to another so that you may be healed. Not forgiven. I know I'm forgiven. Right.
Michael Rubino:Yeah. But I still need to be healed. Yep. You know, I didn't think, am I okay? Like, am I doing a great job if the church is not consistently growing?
Michael Rubino:Do I feel like, is my victory in the obedience or is it only in the outcome? Because the truth is the outcome is above my pay grade. Right. Right? That's a God thing?
Luke Bilberry:Yes. Yes.
Michael Rubino:My only responsibility when we get down to it is to be obedient.
Luke Bilberry:Right. It reminds me of Psalm, you know, one where it talks about that a tree planted by streams of living water will yield its fruit in season. And sometimes, the pastors, we get to experience that fruit in the season, and man, what a joy to be a part of that or to be a part of seeing someone hear the gospel and then coming to know the Lord in that moment. But maybe for some of us, we may not see the fruit, right? We think about Jeremiah the prophet, like, he didn't see the fruit of his word, but here we are still learning from those moments.
Michael Rubino:Or like David and Solomon. Like David gets all the stuff together for the temple, but Solomon gets to build it. Always just wonder like, was David a little bit like, God? Really?
Larry Mayberry:Moses and Joshua, same thing. Am I going to be I had that one moment.
Michael Rubino:More than one, but
Larry Mayberry:you know.
Michael Rubino:Am I okay if my job is to gather all this foundational stuff, and the next guy takes Cornerstone to where God wants it to go? Am I celebrating that vociferously as if I did it as well? Is it all about him or is it about me? That's what we're kind of
Larry Mayberry:Right.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Is the name of Jesus, is his kingdom come, his will being done, his name being increased, or are we continuing to decrease around that? What would you say, Larry, like in some of that kind of where are we seeing us as spiritual leaders? Where are we putting our identity in the wrong things? What are you seeing around churches that you're getting to network and work with?
Larry Mayberry:Yeah. Two things that Mike mentioned that I think should be repeated, and I can use them to answer my question. The first was that he said, We need to confess our sins one to another so that we may be healed. We do know that we're forgiven, but as pastors and leaders in the church, we must also know that it is our spiritual responsibility to confess our sins.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah.
Larry Mayberry:So you brought up Tim Keller earlier. Tim Keller asked us when we were in church planting cohort together before he died. He asked, Do you have a time set into your spiritual rhythms where you are confessing your sins to the Lord? Because as a pastor, you can get really into praying for the people, preparing for sermons, loving people, intercessory prayer, and you might even do your quiet time and all that stuff. But he said, When do you confess your sin?
Larry Mayberry:Because if you're not confessing your sin, then you're assuming that you are not sinning. And that is not the truth. You are sinning. We are all sinning. Right.
Larry Mayberry:And so I think it is so vital that we are men who confess our sins, not only to God, but also one to another. And imagine the veils being like lowered from everyone's eyes if we were confessing our sins to one another. Because I guarantee I don't guarantee you, but I would have a hunch that that other pastor at that church, if, you know, Mike took him to breakfast or whatever and said, just want to confess a sin to you.
Michael Rubino:Yeah. I've been If holding
Larry Mayberry:he told him what he just told us, if you told him what you just told us, my prayer, my trust in the office of pastor as you described it, which is I think, you know, there might be a few bad asses, most of get in for the right reasons, is that he would just in tears be like, brother, I forgive you, and I'm, let's move forward. How can we break down these walls? Know what I mean?
Luke Bilberry:Yeah.
Larry Mayberry:But it takes that vulnerable moment of confessing sin. The other thing he said was that you tie your success to your obedience, not to the outcomes. And that is how identity gets completely
Luke Bilberry:Totally distorted.
Larry Mayberry:So my wife used to do this ministry in our neighborhood. Right up the street from us is a strip club. And she called the strip club one time because the women in our church baked cookies for local businesses. She was like, I'm going to take them to the strip club. So she calls, she tells the guy that she wants to bring them.
Larry Mayberry:He agrees. And she goes on a Sunday night before the shift starts, and they start this ministry. Every single month, they start taking cookies from our church, the women, to go, and they get welcomed into the
Michael Rubino:dressing I appreciate that you delineated that the women brought
Larry Mayberry:the cookies. The women did bring the cookies.
Michael Rubino:Right. Not that the demons going, I'll do it. The men
Larry Mayberry:were only praying in the background at home with usually with the kids, but they would take them, and it started a monthly thing. And they would get to go down into the the dressing room, and they'd be praying with these women. And some some men actually who were down there as, like, hairdressers and stuff, they got to know their stories, they got to know their names, their kids' names, they're And praying for them, walking with after about a year of that, a woman who knew of the ministry asked in a public setting, my wife, How's it been going? How many people have gotten saved far? And she said, Oh, it's been going great.
Larry Mayberry:She told a couple of stories of the way they got to pray for people, but she said, We haven't had any She doubled down, like, How many people have gotten saved? And she said, No one's gotten saved yet, but we're really just loving these women. And she interrupted my wife and said, Oh, honey, you need to stop casting your pearls before swine. Oh, You need to dust off your feet and walk away from that ministry because God is not blessing it. And it publicly humiliated my wife, and she didn't know what to say, and some other people came to her defense, but then it destroyed her on the inside.
Larry Mayberry:So like the next couple of weeks, something off, something's off. And finally we drill down and she tells me that she's battling that. Like the lady opened up a question to her mind, Am I following God? Is this successful? And that's when she said, almost pervading the line you just said, and we learned it in our marriage, and now we've implemented it in our home and our church, which is, I am successful if I obey what the Holy Spirit tells me to do.
Luke Bilberry:Doug, that's it. Full stop. Amen.
Michael Rubino:Anything else after is God's work. All I can control. Right. We're
Luke Bilberry:called to obedience. Call to faithfulness, right?
Larry Mayberry:Yep. So my success is in my obedience. And that's what we repeat and we remember that, and I think that's so crucial as pastors to our identities. My father has been pastoring since 1988, faithfully, small churches. Why did his church never grow to more than 100 until recently?
Larry Mayberry:Actually, one of his churches is growing. But why? Well, it's not about if your church didn't grow big, you were not successful. Right. He's successful in his obedience.
Larry Mayberry:And like you've mentioned on this podcast before, 70 to 100 is the average church size. So he's pastoring those churches. Yeah. Sometimes those guys, like me, that's the size of my church, we can start to think, I mean, my church isn't growing, you know, like Chapel Point or like FBC, whatever, But you that's such a terrible way to view our identity because that's not how God
Michael Rubino:chooses Comparison kills contentment.
Luke Bilberry:Thank you for saying that because that's exactly what I was just sitting here in my heart, in my mind, I was thinking about. Man, comparisons lower our own standards. And the reality is one of the mentors in my life, he always says this, Everyone is insecure. At the end of the day, every person's insecure because we're working from a place of brokenness. We're working from a place of we're not whole because our identity, we began to put it in ourselves, and that's part of the redemptive work of God redeeming and restoring us and all creation is one day we will be whole.
Luke Bilberry:We will be in that identity that we are meant to and created to walk deeply, intimately with the Lord, but when I think about those moments, comparisons lower our own standards. Mean, that's a dangerous game to play when we begin to look at those things. And you said it earlier too, we're not thinking more highly of ourselves. When we begin to compare, we're actually elevating. We're claiming rights.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. I should. I've put in the work. I've done the time. And again, we're We'll
Larry Mayberry:talk trash about athletes who act like they're entitled, but we realize that as pastors, we
Michael Rubino:have some issues. Our own sphere, we the same way. We just
Larry Mayberry:don't have press conferences to talk about
Michael Rubino:it. Nobody cares. Cares.
Larry Mayberry:I guess we do. We start our
Michael Rubino:own podcast to talk
Larry Mayberry:about it.
Michael Rubino:This is our press conference. It's nice to
Luke Bilberry:meet you. With that, Ben, I think the vulnerability and authenticity of this conversation I hope is helpful because the question would be, so what would you say So you're saying, make sure you're confessing your sins, you're calling things out, you're repenting in these moments.
Larry Mayberry:And I do want to say, before you even go, don't forget what you're going say, but this still has been a You guys do this. I want to say, like you said, I try to practice this with my family. I try to apologize to my children when I
Luke Bilberry:approve them. Yeah, absolutely.
Larry Mayberry:If I wrong So if I wrong someone publicly, like a staff member, I speak to them in a way that I shouldn't have in a staff meeting or something like that, I don't go apologize to them privately. I apologize to them in front of the staff. 100. If I have something that's going on in my life, I want to talk about it on stage in an appropriate way to let people know that their pastor is not perfect, and they should not expect perfection from
Luke Bilberry:Christ. Jesus,
Larry Mayberry:We're all in more yielded in Him. So I want to practice that too, and not just say like, Oh, we need to confess our sins, but I want to do that, and we should be doing that.
Luke Bilberry:I love that. What would be some other things? And you guys can just kind of just throw it in as you have it, not to anyone in particular, talking to spiritual leaders, people taking next steps, people growing in their faith, people beginning to lead Bible studies or discipleship groups, or maybe stepping into the ministry of the pastor for the first time, seminary folks that are learning and growing, and they're excited to be a part of this work. They've given a lot of time and energy. What are some other things outside of confession and this idea of repentance and seeking forgiveness?
Luke Bilberry:What are some other things that we can do to practically make sure that we are not putting our identity in the wrong things? Let's begin to try to build the body up.
Michael Rubino:We've kind
Luke Bilberry:of identified a few issues, but how can we build up and take steps towards Christ and towards humility? You know, even what is Philippians two tells us, right? That Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ, says He didn't hold His God as something to be held onto, emptied Himself, taking on the form of a servant. How can we practically live that out in our context? What would you guys encourage us with?
Larry Mayberry:I have a hot take. Go. Spend less time in study and more time in the streets.
Luke Bilberry:Give us some more
Michael Rubino:of that.
Larry Mayberry:Studying for twenty or thirty or forty hours a week for your sermons is not a biblical practice. I understand that at the larger
Michael Rubino:your speech, three more times, let's get some mail going. Paul said, Paul Paul
Larry Mayberry:always be prepared to give reason for the whole I'm not saying that you don't prepare for your sermons. I do prepare for my sermons, but oftentimes pastors hide in their studies because they're a safer place with the Holy
Michael Rubino:Spirit and
Luke Bilberry:with God. Because my identity is found. I'm safe in my knowledge.
Larry Mayberry:Yep. So I would say get out of your study on a regular rhythm and be in the streets. Go with your people and with nonbelievers in your community. So if you don't have friends who are nonbelievers in your community, you need to go make them now. Yeah.
Larry Mayberry:Immediately. Get rid of the church people. So don't get rid of the church people. Go away from your church people and interact with non believers. These things will help your identity because they will remind you of the lostness.
Larry Mayberry:They will remind you of the ways that other people are viewing their identities, and it can help humble you in a way that church people who will dote on you and say, great, great job, pastor, or only complain at you, and so you get frustrations. It'll remove the identity of pastor from your identity as a Christian, and it will remind you that you're called to be a Christian first and a pastor second. Yeah. So you've got to get out of the study and into the streets, and then I would say also you need to have non Christian friends. Every pastor needs to have some non Christian friends.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, can we just double down on that question? I just want to call it out again. If you are not placing yourself in places where you're engaging with non Christians, you probably need to check your identity and where you're finding your security because that that is a really important thing because what you're saying, Larry, and what I'm hearing you, it's exactly what God himself has done. Jesus didn't stay in heaven. He stepped into human story.
Luke Bilberry:He stepped into brokenness. He became friends of sinners. He always stayed holy. He didn't compromise who he was, but that's a really important man, I just I can't thank you enough for that because I think that is one of the things as our culture has grown in information and knowledge, I think that we've built our identity around that, having the right answer, the right statement, the right, I don't know, feels in a service or a style of church or the buildings, and at the end of the day, Jesus came for people.
Larry Mayberry:And your staff, the larger staff that you lead, the more people you are helping stay insulated. In other words, the staff is usually going to follow the lead or senior pastor. So if you're in the office all the time, you'll expect them to be in the office all the time. They will be in the office all time. If you're out playing pickleball with non believers, they'll know this is a thing I should do.
Larry Mayberry:So you will reverse engineer your staff to be more lost people facing as well, and help them feel free to do that. So anyway, I think there's endless benefits to pastors having lost friends. You have to go make a lost friend.
Luke Bilberry:Yep, absolutely. It's one of the reasons, and it's like weird even just saying it, but it's one of the reasons why I love helping coach my boy in Little League, because it's putting in Exactly, a
Larry Mayberry:coaching a perfect way to
Michael Rubino:do it.
Luke Bilberry:And it's something we're doing together as a family. I love baseball, but honestly, I love talking to the parents. I love talking to the kids and just encouraging them. And I'm not laying out a three point sermon or whatever. I'm living life.
Luke Bilberry:I'm encouraging them so that whenever life happens, whenever the hard road comes, and we can say, my hope is found in Jesus, and how can I walk alongside you? Right? Yeah. What would you Throw some more in here. How can we practically step towards our identity in Christ and not in our in the things that are wrong?
Michael Rubino:So, would say don't confuse correlation with causation. And I'm going unpack that a little bit.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah,
Michael Rubino:please. I think what happens is we think that we can actually cause a move of God when we cannot. Or we say, since we can't cause anything, we don't do anything. Right? So like, there is a correlation to how we carry ourselves and doing ministry with excellence and how we structure ourselves and how we are forward facing in the community.
Michael Rubino:There's a correlation between that and a healthier church and a gospel movement. It is not a causation. There's a move of the spirit. God is always the cause, but there are some things we can do that can correlate. So free yourself, once again, it kind of goes back to the same principle, Free yourself from the outcome piece.
Michael Rubino:Right. You can't cause anything. Right. Let that go for a minute. Right.
Michael Rubino:Right? Be obedient. Do things with excellence. All scriptural principles that will correlate to some things that will happen in a good way. Right.
Michael Rubino:And then let God just do what He does and have the long view. So, like, we're short term nature people.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah.
Michael Rubino:Right? Like, we dice up every facet of our life. Now, like, one thing that drives me crazy, totally off topic, is young adults. Like, dude, how old? I'm 35.
Michael Rubino:I'm a young adult. No, you're not. You're middle age. What do mean you're 35? We have all these different phases of life.
Michael Rubino:We're always like, we have this short term view of everything.
Larry Mayberry:Yeah.
Michael Rubino:But God has his eternal view. The kingdom's a long time. If Jesus doesn't come back in my lifetime, someone else will pastor this church.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, exactly.
Michael Rubino:Right? So, it's not all hanging on me. Like, so I can't have myself worth be based on this sliver of a season in this one church in a small corner of the kingdom. Right. God still wins.
Michael Rubino:The kingdom will always grow. And there'll be seasons of growth in my church, and there'll be seasons of pruning. There are times I'm going break it. There are times I'm going be the one to help fix it. Like, man, it just feels good to live that way because when it was all on me, it was suffocating.
Luke Bilberry:Right. Yeah. Well, I love that. And when I think about these things, like in what you're talking about there, Pastor Marco, it's the conversation of Mary and Martha. Jesus is in their house, right?
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And Martha's working in the kitchen. She's doing good things. She's preparing food. She's helping to try to take care of these guests in her house.
Luke Bilberry:But Jesus tells Martha, Mary shows them the good portion. She's sitting in my presence. She's hearing from me. She's drawing near to me. In this moment, in this part of time, this is the right portion.
Luke Bilberry:And I wonder for us sometimes as ministry leaders, as spiritual leaders, we're putting our attention in the work. Because when we like you said earlier, what do you do versus who are you? And who are? And more importantly, whose are you? Whose are you?
Luke Bilberry:And so my encouragement for us is as we kind of wrap up this conversation for any spiritual leader is this, I want you to read Ephesians chapter one. Ephesians chapter one is this beautiful passage that 15 times there's some level of in Christ, in Him, in Jesus. And our hope and our prayer is this, that you would find your identity in Jesus Christ alone. And if there's any way that we can help you as spiritual leader, wherever you are in the world, wherever you are in your journey with Jesus Christ, we wanna help you. These brothers, we we will help you make connections, whatever it looks like for you to make sure your identity is rooted in the love and the grace.
Luke Bilberry:And even as the scripture tells us that you would begin to fathom the height and the depth and the width and the breadth of the love of God because he loves you, he's redeemed you, and he's calling you to be a spiritual leader to help take next steps. It's not what you do, it's who he is, and it's all about him. And so we just can't wait to continue the conversation with you, walk alongside you as God builds his kingdom, as he does his work in and through us. Thanks for joining us. We'll talk to you guys real soon.