# Swell AI Transcript: Creating Maximum Value - Meta Performance (First Edit).mp3
SPEAKER_00:
Welcome to the Beyond High Performance podcast featuring content and conversations from me, Jason Jaggard, along with our elite coaches at Novus Global, their high performing clients, and the faculty of the Metta Performance Institute for Coaching. On this podcast, you'll hear some of the world's best executive coaches and high performing leaders, artists and athletes discuss how they continue to go beyond high performance in their lives and businesses.
SPEAKER_05:
In today's episode of On Coaching, we explore one of the first questions we ask during a coaching session. How do we create maximum value for our time together today? I'm Joseph King-Barkley. I get to serve as the president of the Metta Performance Institute, and I'm joined by my fellow Novus Global executive coaches, Damore Barnes and Dr. Jennifer Tharp. In this conversation, we dive into how to extrapolate your maximum value from all of your internal desires and what can get in the way of that discovery. This includes a deep dive into the concept of full participation, important distinctions between consulting and coaching, what you can do when your answer to the question is, I don't know, how to avoid avoidance, and much, much more. We ask this question regarding maximum value so we can be fierce advocates for our clients' full participation in finding themselves, their goals, and their dreams. So, as you listen, start thinking about what it is that you want the most. We hope you enjoy the show.
SPEAKER_01:
Hi, my name is Mike Park, and I'm a proud graduate of the Metta Performance Institute for Coaching. The faculty of the Metta Performance Institute not only provided the training, tools, and experience to learn how to coach people toward powerful growth and thrilling results, but also advocated for that kind of growth and results in my own life. unique opportunity to have world-class executive coaches invest in my development both professionally and personally. It's a privilege to be part of a tribe of coaches fiercely committed to exploring what we are capable of together. If you're looking to become a coach or to set up your coaching practice to reach the next level, I highly recommend the certification from the Metta Performance Institute for Coaching. To fill out a free assessment of your abilities as a coach and to connect with someone to find out if the Metta Performance Institute is for you, check out www.mp.institute.
SPEAKER_05:
Well, I'm so excited to be with two of my colleagues today talking about a challenge that so many of us face, and you may be listening and you're considering hiring, partnering with an executive coach, or you may already be in a relationship with an executive coach and you're wondering if there's more available to you. Today, we want to talk about creating maximum value in so many areas of your life, including your coaching relationship. You know, there's probably somebody listening who has yet to invest in coaching and they're asking a really great question. Would I get something out of it? Would it be worth the time? Would it be worth the money? And so, as Meta Performance Executive Coaches, we will often talk about the idea of extracting, creating maximum value. Jennifer Damore, can you help us understand what we mean when we're exploring this idea of maximum value?
SPEAKER_07:
I think the idea of maximum value is meant to serve both the coach and the client in any given session and then over the course of the coaching partnership. And specifically, we start every conversation with our clients by asking, hey, what's max value for today? And that's intentional to help us get aligned to if we were going to create nothing else out of this time, what would it be? Or if there was going to be a return on investment for the time, the money that you or your company are investing in at this coaching partnership, then what would that be?
SPEAKER_03:
Yeah, I think of, Joseph, what you were saying about investment. I think oftentimes when we think of investment or when our clients or prospective clients are thinking of investment, We tend to think in too limited a way where we look at investment as being solely monetarily based, money based. How much money am I investing? And when we are exploring and talking about maximum value, we're not just talking about money, we're talking about what is it that individual wants? What is it that they long for? And I think even expanding on that, what is it that they are wanting to create that does not yet exist in the world, in their lives?
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, and asking me what I want, at least at first seems like, gosh, that's got to be an easy question for me to answer. Of course, I can tell you what I want. And yet sometimes I really wrestle with coming up with any answer to that question. What would be maximum value for this coaching relationship or for the session? I'm like, why do I get so stumped? Why do our clients get stumped? What do you think stands in the way of us being connected to something that we desire as a return on this time or this financial investment we're making?
SPEAKER_07:
You know, I can relate. I've been there. And it's funny, I've just started working with a couple of clients two months ago, and they're coming to mind specifically because this has come up week after week. Like, I'm not quite sure what max value is. Like, how do I figure that out? Tell me again, what is max value? And how do I get there?
SPEAKER_04:
And so... Yeah, could you please tell me what would be maximum value for me, please, coach? I don't even know.
SPEAKER_07:
Well, so what we've entertained is a couple of things. One, my curiosity there, reflect back to them, is that if they're not clear on what is max value for our session today, that it's possible that their outcomes Like the goals that we're aiming at over the course of coaching may not be clear enough that would serve them, or the clarity could be dialed up there in their outcome. So much so that then there's energy around like, this is what I want to get out of today. That's a theory. So I've thrown that around with a couple of clients. And then another that I think could be a work there, like why don't we know what we want is because actually I think that we don't always do a great job, especially as high achievers at considering what do I want? We do a lot of thinking about what do others want of me? or what's demanded of me, what's required of me to be the best, to get to the next step, work the plan. But we don't always think a lot about, what do I actually want? So in that way, max value is even, it's like going to the gym and doing the rower when you're, that's not a typical part of your rhythm up until now.
SPEAKER_05:
That's a really helpful metaphor because if I go to the gym and I'm just thinking, oh, there's a machine in front of me and here's how I succeed at that machine, that may have nothing to do with my actual goal. Like I want to be a power lifter, why would I spend 45 minutes on the treadmill running at top speed? Those are wildly different goals. And yet, that's really helpful, Jennifer. I'm thinking about a high achieving mindset often is what do I have to do to get an A in your class, whoever the U is, the teacher, the boss, maybe this picture of what you thought it meant to be successful in your field. And maybe I can become disconnected with, gosh, what is it that I want? What would it mean for me to have a massive wild win in a way that really matters to me and it may not matter in this context, it may not matter in this particular job. So, we're inviting them to get reacquainted with their own heart and their own mind, their own imagination before we get on any of the equipment in the gym. What is maximum value for you? Yeah, that occurs to me as quite a gift.
SPEAKER_03:
Yeah, I love where both of you are pointing. And one of the words that comes to mind that I haven't really quite ever thought of it this way is clarity. That max value has an intrinsic connection and relationship to clarity. And that when we talk about a goal or as we would say in coaching a vision, and we define vision as a picture of the future that produces passion, that we are often disconnected to what we are passionate about because we are unclear about our vision. And so there's a way in which I think we also and the individuals that we work with, sometimes it's conscious. Oftentimes, I believe it's subconscious in a way that we hide or the way that we avoid failure, we avoid missing the mark, we avoid looking bad, we avoid not being in control. These are different ways in which we end up distancing ourselves from an awareness of what it is that we truly want because of that lack of clarity and because of that avoidance that coincides with that.
SPEAKER_07:
You know, Demar, that makes me think about that. If I'm thinking about like a listener who perhaps isn't yet working with the Novus Global Coach, it might occur to them like, well, why does it matter what we want? You know, there are a lot of good people out there in the world doing really beautiful things. and they don't wake up every morning, perhaps, and think, what are my core desires? Like, what is it that I want? And I think the reason why we bring up, like, what is it that we want? What is it that we desire? What's max value out of anything? It could be out of a coaching session, out of date night, out of my trip to the grocery store. What's max value, right? The reason why we're thinking about what do I want is because we believe that we are actually more capable than we realize. And by getting clear to more like what you're saying, getting clear on what is it? What might it be that I want? What is it? that I really want, what might actually be a vision that compels me to explore that? And so there's a relationship there to the question, what do I want that we relate to in our Novus Global framework as both as a tool, we've used the metaphor of a gym, you know, it's like a warmup at the gym, something that we do regularly to make sure that the other things we're up to are effective.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, our brains are doing such a beautiful job of trying to protect us and sometimes doing that in ways that are not resourceful for our future. And I know in my own experience when I am resisting articulating what would be maximum value, one of the things that's going on for me is the moment I say it, I can't unhear it. I can't unhear myself say that I really want something that I don't currently have, which might mean I'm gonna try things I'm currently not trying. I'm gonna take risks I'm currently not taking.
SPEAKER_04:
My brain is like, warning, warning, warning. Let's save ourselves the disappointment ahead of time.
SPEAKER_05:
Let's save ourselves the looking like an idiot and let's just keep things as disappointingly normal as possible.
SPEAKER_07:
Disappointingly normal as possible.
SPEAKER_05:
At least that's one of the stories that I can live with unless a coach who – my coach so routinely invites me into this like, hold on, let's just play with it for a second. I want you to hear yourself say what's something you really want? What would be valuable for you in this space? Anything else come to mind when you think about reasons that it's so difficult for us or for our clients to answer the question, what would be maximum value for blank? The coaching session, my marriage, this next meeting I'm going into, what resistance is there to that?
SPEAKER_03:
I think oftentimes our clients, myself included, we have a tendency to be in relation to people and to concepts and to our world from a place of what we call disempowerment. We are relating to things that do not give us, we're relating to things in a way that do not allow us to access our power, to access our strength or our empowerment. And I think it's a quiet, it's one of the few or it's one of the many quiet epidemics that I think that afflict most of us, if not all of humanity, is that we have a tendency to be on our heels. rather than on our toes. We have a tendency to be playing not to lose rather than playing to win, guarding ourselves against the possibility of failure rather than leaping forward into what's possible for us. empowered versus disempowered. And I think in a lot of regards, we tend to find ourselves unwittingly and unaware that we are living and moving throughout our world and our relationships in a place of disempowerment. So I think that is another obstacle as well.
SPEAKER_07:
Yeah, related to that, Demar, I was thinking actually about in Novus Global, we relate creating maximum value, ownership. And so like when I think about going into my sessions with my coach, and I'm thinking about creating max value, It's in a posture, like we were saying, it's on our toes. It's taking ownership that not only is it possible for me to create value out of the time, but that I can choose to do so and just make it happen. That comes to mind. And then you also asked about like, what are the other things that might keep us from creating max value? And quite frankly, I think sometimes we can just be an avoidance. There can be a lot of stories going through our minds or our hearts. Like perhaps we took a big swing the week before and we got clear on the results and it wasn't what we wanted it to be. And so it requires courage. to go back to the conversation again and say, okay, what's max value now? I am still here. I am still here. This vision is so compelling to me that it is worth continuing in this exercise, this experiment of creating a life that I haven't lived yet, becoming a person I haven't been yet.
SPEAKER_03:
Yeah, and I love how you even just you're double clicking and highlighting the value and the importance of ownership. There's a way in which I think as well that one of the obstacles is that we have a tendency to gravitate towards what is comfortable, what is known, what is familiar. And oftentimes the thing that we long for, that one longs for, is in the land of what is unfamiliar and is unknown. And in that land of unknown, it requires us to step into not only the unknown, but into a place of discomfort. Because the individual that we are at this particular moment in time, where let's say we are most comfortable, maybe most in control, uh is something that we need to on a certain level we need to divorce ourselves from we need to move from uh in order to become the new individual that we need to become in order to inhabit that dream that longing that reality that goal that vision in the future and it can be scary terrifying at least at first
SPEAKER_05:
You know, that first step can be so intimidating because it does step into the unknown. We're adopting new risks potentially. There'll be new experiences if it doesn't go exactly the way we hoped it would go. We might save new learning opportunities but that is something again, our brains are trying to warn us against. You know, hey, why don't you just stay in the boat? don't create anything different than what you're already used to, because as challenging as what you're used to already is, at least you know it. It's the devil that you know, so to speak.
SPEAKER_07:
So one more thing about what gets in the way of us creating max value that comes to mind is that I have some clients who tend to relate to coaching, especially in the beginning, in a mindset of right or wrong, as though they're like, okay, we're doing this coaching thing. And then we're like halfway through the session and they're like, am I doing it right? I'm like, there's this self-awareness that they bring to our coaching calls, you know, particularly high achievers. So yes, there is a vision that's really compelling to them. And there's old framework, this old system that's still at work for them. So for those of you who are listening, who are considering partnering with the Novus Global Coach and you're thinking, you know, like, okay, man, I'm nervous. I hope I get this right. Like, just know that this is not a space in which we're not interested in a client getting it right or wrong. We're interested in transformation. And so it's a growth space that we're entering, where if there were a right or a wrong, we would only be interested in that to the extent that it supports growth.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah. So it's almost as though by saying what maximum value would be, it's It may be less about whether or not we create that in the next 40 minutes. And it may be more about who do we get to become in the next 40 minutes or what do we get to try on? What jacket, what coat, what hat, what persona do we just get to play with if that's what we're up to in this time together? And that creates its own value, its own creativity, its own new trains of thought. You're noticing different things because you're just deciding for a moment to play in a space of the kind of person who would create that kind of value.
SPEAKER_03:
I love what you're saying, the training, the trying on. I also remember a quote I heard first from you, Joseph. I don't know if it was yours originally, but you were talking about the notion of training and that in coaching in this space and speaking to the listener that in the space of coaching that it is a training space. And I remember Joseph, you'd said, how you train is how you fight. Show up in the ring on training day with the behaviors that you want to rely on when the moment comes. And so the moment is often not within the coaching conversation or within the coaching session. The moment is to come from the moment that potentially you hang up from that call or part ways from the meeting, but that you are trying on the viewer, the listener, the prospective client, our current clients, they are trying on, they're training, they're swinging, they're punching, they're kicking. They're leaping, they're jumping, they are experimenting in ways that they have a tendency not to in the real world so that when the moment comes, those behaviors can show up. That way of being and who they long to be and who they've trained to be can show up in those moments.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, they're like, I know these moves. I've been working on these moves session after session. And just to make sure we give credit where it's due, I got that from Will Smith's autobiography. And that was from his trainer that he employed for him as he was preparing for the Ali role. And that's a little nugget that he took with him into so many aspects of his life. And it becomes so true for us. In fact, I think that one of the distinctions of meta-performance coaching and a gift that if you're currently working with a coach and it's not a meta-performance coach, it's not a Novus Global coach, this already is a way that you can bring and create even more value in that coaching relationship is to walk into that space advocating for something that would be valuable for you. It is to us central in the way that we practice our partnerships with clients. But regardless of the relationship you currently have, bringing into your next session some sense, doesn't have to be perfect, doesn't have to be the one way that you create value, but a sense of what would be incredibly valuable for you to face, to overcome, to create when you're in that sacred place with your coach. Now, if I was a client and I was working with a coach like the two of you, and we got to a point early in the call where I said maximum value is this, I would figure out this million-dollar problem. I would know how to address this challenge I've got in my friendships. I would know what risk to take of the three in front of me. They got their maximum value. I know where I would go. to, at least at first, to find out where to find that value. And it would be, okay, coach, tell me how to do it.
SPEAKER_04:
I've articulated the maximum value. I know what I want. So, coach, you know, go ahead. This is your time to shine. Show off.
SPEAKER_05:
What book should I read? What, you know, what answers do you have for me? And have you noticed that is that one of the ways that clients have related to it? And I'm curious how you meet them in that space. It seems like a natural instinct, but how are you meeting clients in that space when they first say, okay, solve it, coach.
SPEAKER_07:
Yeah, I've been there before. I remember one time a client, you know, had a how question, which is really a strategy question, right? Like, how do I do X? And she was a small business owner. She was growing her business. She was on track for a banner year and she felt stuck. And so her max value for that day was, okay, how do I create? And it was a part of her pipeline, you know, that she was feeling stuck and frustrated and, you know, and so I was like, okay, great. Well, I've never been a book agent, so I am going to decidedly not consult you, consult for you right now, right? Which is, it's the temptation, especially as coaches, like, of course I care about my clients. And the best expression of that care can be inquiry, not advice, right? That's our belief at Novus Global. And so in that moment, how did I explore, you know, what was max value? I said, okay, great. Well, what would it get you? And so we explored, we went back to vision and we identified the gap. You know, one thing that also comes to mind, Josephine, what you're talking about is that we in Nova School say that maximum value, it comes from full participation. And so when we're, maximum value comes from full participation. And so when we are deciding what max value would be, yes, we'll co-create and coach and client will come in with 100% ownership of creating value in our own ways.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah. And I want to explore that more in just a minute. At first, that sounds like we're letting the coach off the hook. Like it is a way for us to, yeah. Like if maximum value is to solve this big problem. And then the coach is like, I don't have to do anything. I can just sit here and let you talk to yourself for 45 minutes and then charge you for the pleasure. But I know from our practice that even if Jennifer, you were the most believable person to answer that question, not answering it and still standing an inquiry is resourceful for that client. Even if you were the perfect person to solve that problem, to not take the bait and not give them an answer, but instead invite them into inquiry is its own transformation. So, Demore, Jennifer, I'm curious, why would inquiry be more resourceful for this client than giving them the answer even if you have it?
SPEAKER_03:
I initially think of a way that I wasn't expecting. I'm thinking of the other arena that I play in and have played in for many years, which is in Hollywood as an actor, as a series regular on many different series and guest starring in this place or that show or another. When I think of the greatest directors, the most enjoyable and engaging and talented directors that I've ever worked with, they were the directors who did less directing and who asked some of the most profound and powerful questions that were rooted in their knowledge of the piece, of the script, of the scene, of the characters involved, who is keenly aware of their own sense of what each character wants within the overarching storyline, but within the scene. But just some of the most delicious moments I've had as an actor is a director, he or she coming over in between a take and you know, kind of having a bit of a huddle. We huddle together and it's like, okay, well, towards the end of the scene, when you said X, Y, Z, what were you thinking? What was going through your mind? And I share what was going through my mind and them simply saying, well, I wonder what would happen if you thought about this. and then them seeing maybe a bit of a smile blooming the corners of my mouth, and then say, yes, that, that, I want to see that now. And so everyone, first position, let's go. Three, two, one, action. Doing it. And then cut, looking over at the director and seeing her face, her beaming and me beaming and being like, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was incredible. But that happened just from a question that blossomed from an inquiry that didn't blossom from her directing or telling me what to do or telling me what was needed. What that also invited me into was a greater sense, calling back to what, you know, Jen, you had mentioned, to that sense of ownership. That was a moment that I got to own. That was a moment where I got to connect with my own creativity, my own sense of resourcefulness. In that moment, the director is inviting me to step into and to really demonstrate the full extent of my capability so that I'm not limited to what she or he is directing me to do. because perhaps what I could create is even greater. It's bigger, it's fuller, more fulfilling, more fun. As you can tell, even just from my energy, it's just like, oh, I love that world as well. Get me back there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:
Yeah, I appreciate that, DeMoraine. I'm thinking from my lens of having studied thriving and success and that it stems from the positive psychology movement. So there's a lot of literature there around how humans work, how humans change, how we can optimize the way that humans work and change. Right. And so it's coming to mind that if we want lasting change, like real lasting change, it will come from an intrinsic source of motivation, not from an extrinsic source of motivation. And so really inquiry does provide that it provides the field of play. for intrinsic motivation, right? So it positions someone to go forth and explore, to run fast, to fall down, to get confused, to like really stumble over words. Or so many times clients will say, oh, I'm not saying it right. Or it feels this way, but I don't know how to articulate. And yet that very struggle is the client reaching the limit of what up until now they knew about themselves and their reality and their vision. And so there is a lasting change effect that we're interested in that inquiry serves. And in a really practical sense, I also just really love it when I come up with my own ideas. I think about counseling from time to time. I love my counselor. But from time to time, it's not coaching. And he'll say, hey, here's what I think you should think about. Here's what I think you should do. Like, think more about this in the next, you know, and we'll talk about it. And, you know, I have a choice to either like really own that and create max value and commit to it or given my, you know, because we can create max value anywhere we go, right? That's what we were saying earlier. So I do think there's also something to that when we come up with our own, with our own experiment, with our own solution, what feels like a solution the moment at hand, like that's so much more interesting to us as individuals, as humans. than receiving. Like, here you go. Try this strategy.
SPEAKER_02:
What if one call could change what you once thought was impossible into a reality? Novus Global is offering you an exploration call with one of their world-class coaches to explore what you as a leader and your team are capable of. Novus Global is an elite executive coaching firm that works with multi-billion dollar companies, professional athletes, nonprofit leaders and faith in government, all to create teams, companies and communities that go beyond high performance. Book your call right now. Just go to novice.global forward slash now.
SPEAKER_05:
I see it as a huge resource of confidence. So many times clients will say, I'll do that thing, that hard thing, that new thing when I have enough confidence to do it. And we will invite them to consider that the confidence they think they need to do the thing is gonna happen on the other side of doing the thing. what you're actually looking for is clarity and courage. Let's get clear on the thing that we're going to take a swing at and the courage to do it messily, to do it, to take a few stabs at it. And Damore, in your example from the creative, from the acting space, from the storytelling space, I imagine when directors have planted a new inquiry into your performance, you're both surprised with what comes out of that. If they'd come in prescribing, say it this way, then maybe they would get initially what they thought they wanted, but it would leave so much potential expanse off the table or even a sense of sincerity. I'm not sure that that particular character who's trying to answer that question would have done that thing. And yet by putting you in inquiry, you get to embody something that's going to create some beautiful surprises.
SPEAKER_03:
Beautiful surprises and then there is, it resonates so much with what you're saying, there is almost a co-collaboration or a co-invitation for full participation. in that dynamic where on one hand, you have the director in his or her expertise, their experience, their bodies of work, their proclivities, their sensitivities, all of that, and their preparation for scene A. And then you have the actor who has all of those same things and backgrounds and things that are intrinsic to who they are, that they are bringing in their preparation to scene A. And the best that happens within scene A is director and actor bringing the fullness of who they are to that scene in a way that is exemplifying maximum value and full participation where they are both pouring in and leaning in wholeheartedly into that space of the unknown where the aggregate of what they create together, like you said, becomes this really great and wonderful surprise where each individually, it's not a surprise because it's really in some ways, it's already formulated. But the magic happens in that chemical reaction of the two coming together, leaving nothing off the table, holding no cards, to themselves. I've seen in those dynamics, not only within film, but also within corporations and organizations where people are holding back, they're holding cards, they're withholding for maybe power or control or out of fear or anxiety or whatever it may be. It detracts from what is created within that space and in everyone's participation.
SPEAKER_05:
As we've mentioned so often, a principle that we found to be very fruitful is that maximum value equals full participation. And who would you need to become to create the kind of value that you've just stated you want to create? How would you participate in a way that may unlock that value? What do we mean? Flesh out a little bit more for our listeners what we mean when we invite them into something like full participation. What is that?
SPEAKER_07:
Yeah, we define full participation as becoming whoever it is you need to become to accomplish whatever it is you're committed to accomplishing. And so try that on even, you know, if you're walking down the street, you know, or if you're on your way to work, you know, who is it that you need to become in order to accomplish what it is you're committed to?
SPEAKER_03:
I was at dinner last night with a friend of mine who is a young composer and it's really first of a significant conversation about the work that he is doing and exploring. And he talked about one of his roles as a conductor within sort of the composer under the composer umbrella is when conducting is to inspire the orchestra. And so I asked him, you know, how do you inspire an orchestra? And he wasn't sure how to answer the question. And it wasn't like, Hey, guess what the teacher's saying? Cause I have no clue. It was sincerely a curious question. I was like, well, how do you do that? You know, you have the strings over here and you have the brass over here and you got like, how do you do that? And as as we dug into it, what became clear to him was that he was able to get more out of the orchestra. relative to what he put into his conducting. What he became clear on was that when he was calling for his strings to come in, that his level of connection with them in terms of, he's not on the material, he's not on the, I was gonna say the lines, but it's not a script, but on the music, When he's connected with them and looking at them and they engage, and he engages with enthusiasm and with energy in his face and in his body, he actually noted that there is an up level in their playing ability, in terms of their timing and even the exuberance that they are playing in, simply based on how he is engaging with them. And so that would be an example that comes to mind in terms of full participation is defined by becoming who you need to become in order to accomplish what you're committed to accomplishing. And so there was a way in which his way of being and how he was showing up, he was able to identify that, oh, there's an intrinsic connection between that energy, that being and how I'm embodying as a conductor actually will increase the level of the performance of the members in his orchestra.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, that idea of like playing full out and how that might enhance everybody's experience I even think about how our producers set us up for these podcasts. We've got some questions, we've done some preparation beforehand, and then right before we record, Steven and Matthew, our incredible team, they're like, shut every other window down, shut it all down, just be right here on this. And part of that's functional, you know, you don't want your computer bogged down by something. What a beautiful way of at least giving us the space to say, if I was full out right now, if I was just in the moment, if all the resource that we wanted to pour into the world through this podcast episode was just right here with the three of us, how would I show up? What questions would we be asking? When would I shut up and pay attention? So even that's an invitation to full participation, how it could create something for us and certainly for those who are on the receiving end of this conversation.
SPEAKER_07:
Yeah, I have a client that comes to mind who, you know, she is quite accomplished and, you know, what she she's told me before, I'm self-made, you know, and she's encountered challenge after challenge and has experienced growth in her career that she never expected. And she's been through two exits at this point. And what sounded really interesting to her was to create a company. like on the side, like to create her own company. And, and so we have been experimenting, you know, in the coaching space with a way of being, and who does she need to become to not only you know, meta-perform in the sense of, like, continue really creating value at work while also creating value for her family and for her new business. So that's an area, that's a plane on which we're getting curious about max value in each of those spaces that, by the way, shifts depending on what's a priority. maybe if you're a senior leader, or if you're a human juggling a number of things, maybe that resonates with you, that any given day, one responsibility will be a priority at any given time. And so, as we've been moving through her coaching contract, so creating max value in her coaching contract, in a grand sense, has also involved her getting curious about her relationship to what she has at times referred to as failure. So try and experiment and it doesn't work out the way that she wants the first time around. And so max value and full participation in that sense, full participation serves her max value through showing up with persistence, through showing up like, who does she need to become? She needs to become someone who's resilient, to use her word, resilient, who's creative, who is a problem solver, who's excited to solve problems, because on the other side, she's just going to learn, and then it gets her closer to her vision. So I'm seeing transformation happen. We often say, there are some questions, I think this is in the book, actually, Beyond High Performance, that there are some questions that we answer, and there are some questions we answer to.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, say more about that.
SPEAKER_07:
Yeah, well, some questions we answer to in the sense that, A, we may not have an answer right away, and that's okay. Sometimes we just don't know yet, and yet it's still worth sitting with the question to see what might come up, what might come up that's resourceful for my vision. Or it could be a question that calls us forward. So we might answer to a question in that sense. So for her, what does full participation looks like? What does full participation look like? That's been a question for her that she answers to again and again and again. And it's creating value for her.
SPEAKER_05:
Because there's not one answer to that. There's not one answer. Yeah. That's brilliant.
SPEAKER_03:
Yeah. Yeah. I think of a business owner that I recently began working with and she's done quite well for herself and within her company. It's not a large company, but they achieved about $2 million in revenue last year. And what she has discovered very quickly in the coaching is that who she was as a CEO and business owner in leading her company to achieve $2 million of revenue. It's not the same leader and CEO that she needs to be in order to double that in 2024. Specifically, as it relates to delegation, the leader she was in accomplishing and achieving $2 million in revenue was by her own admission, a leader who did not delegate. It was a leader who chose to do everything herself, who chose to, in her own words, madly micromanage everyone out of fear, out of some anxiety, some uncertainty, the unknown of it all. And then yet to her credit, in a way that I'm very excited for. She very quickly identified that the gap that she has is not only a financial gap of 2 million to 4 million, it's also a gap of becoming a leader who delegates And when we talk about full participation, becoming who you need to become in order to accomplish what you're committed to accomplishing, that is something that she's newly reckoning with, with this scary edge of the cliff that she and I together are going to, on some level, link arm in arm and jump off of together. in the exploration of what does that look like in a tangible way, what are the commitments and agreements that she is going to make with herself, but then also with those who directly report to her. to ensure that she's developing and growing in that way so that when we're having this conversation, even six months from now, she's able to look back and say, I'm not the same leader or individual or woman that I was six months prior to beginning this coaching journey.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, not only the increased revenue, but I am different as a result of going after big things and answering two powerful questions, not just answering important questions. And I make up in that story to more that you have participated in a way that is earning trust and she's also – as an act of courage and risk, she's placing trust with you. You're one of the people she's going to jump into that unknown with. I have noticed this has happened twice now with a client where at some point in the coaching relationship, they have shown up, this happened twice since last year, they've shown up with sort of their arms folded with a prove it to me energy when they came into the call because of something else going on maybe or because they were very scared about the outcome that they wanted to create in the months ahead. And so, at least at first, they felt it was comfortable or resourceful for them to say, okay, coach, prove it to me that we can get there. Prove it to me that this is gonna be worth the risk. Prove it to me that you're the right coach for the job, that you're the right person I can trust to jump into the unknown with. And even that is an opportunity I have found to explore maximum value with a person instead of judging it, judging that energy is to say, well, what value are you hoping to create with how you're participating right now? And at least in one of those cases, the client, leader of a large manufacturing company, got to the point where he said, I actually want value for me right now based on results is I want to be right about the fact that this is not going to work out, that I'm going to fail. And then by saying it, it reduced its, I'll say control over how he was showing up. Inviting him, is there something of even greater value that may be inviting you to show up differently, participate differently? And because he was open to exploring that and playing with this idea of maximum value, it not only increased the results that he was able to generate, but it changed how he experienced the entire thing.
SPEAKER_07:
Yeah, isn't that interesting that I think this practice of identifying what is max value and what might full participation look like to move me toward that? Who do I need to become to create that? That's a process that changes us. You know, like we, we talk about, we use the gym metaphor a lot. Like if I, if I go in and I'm committed and I run increasingly more every day, I'm eventually going to be able to run the half marathon, you know, over and over again, it's the repetition and it changes us.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, even in that with my limited experience in the gym and physical therapy, there is a connection between how we think about our body moving and how our body performs. And I know that's not going to be news to our listeners. I'm sure that they've experienced this before. They probably could talk circles around me in some cases with the somatic connection that we have. But there is a way to do a rep in a gym and get through it. And there's a way to be connected with your muscles that are firing as you do that movement in a way that accomplishes the same thing, at least visibly it'll look like the same thing, but the effects it will have on your body because of your presence with the movement is remarkably different. So world-class athletes stay very connected to the movement and the fundamentals of how they are lifting that weight or running that lap or stretching and that creates an athlete who is going to lift more and run further and probably compete longer than athletes who simply go through the motions. The way they participate in it changes who they become.
SPEAKER_06:
The wait is finally over. Our new book, Beyond High Performance, what great coaches know about how the best get better, is available for purchase wherever books are sold. This USA Today bestseller is more than 250 pages long. of expertise, anecdotes, and insights from Novus Global coaches, as well as faculty from the Metta Performance Institute for Coaching. We are so excited to put our proprietary framework that has helped thousands of leaders achieve more into your hands. And we can't wait to see how you'll use the book to enhance your life and leadership. To learn more and obtain this essential resource for yourself, visit novus.global.com.
SPEAKER_03:
Yeah, when I think of full participation, one of the things, stories that comes to mind is, again, from another arena that I have played in for many years, which is in Hollywood as an actor. And I think of a particular production that I was working on called Law and Order, SVU. I've heard of that. You've heard of that? Yeah. It's been around a quarter of a century. Longest running television drama in history. Oh, okay. That one. That law and order. That one, yeah. in some ways not completely material to what I'm saying, but yeah, no, it is fun. It was absolutely fun to be on this show. And in this particular scene, this scene happened to have Mariska Hargitay and Ice-T and myself in it. And we were doing the scene, the content of the scene is less important than that my character happened to be the point or the lead in that scene in terms of who was driving that particular scene. And we'd done it several times. And we shot the daylights out of it. We had all the coverage, which was to say we got all of Mariska's shots. We got all of Ice's shots, got all of my shots. And we were all feeling, you know, a bit lackluster, a bit disengaged, a bit like, yeah, I guess that scene is what it is. The director, then came out and said, you know, hey, Demore, how about, you know, you want to do another one for, you know, some giggles. So it always makes me giggle when they ask me that. And I'll always take another take. But basically, hey, this is the last one. We need to move on. We got it. Sort of with air quotes like, you know, good enough. We're safe. Exactly. So just have some fun with it. So counted us in three to one action off the scene went and off I went and. There was something that was magical that happened that we all had a contribution in. But I would say that started with my engaging and fully participating in a way that I was not aware that I had not on the prior 11 or 12 takes. So much so that my performance and engagement not only elevated, but so did Mariska's and so did Ice's. to the point of where when cut was cold, Mariska looked over at me and she laid a decree. She kind of declared a decree in the air. And she's like, OK, from something along the lines of from this day henceforth, any director who visits this set needs to tell D'Amour Barnes that this is his last take. And We all burst out laughing and the energy within the room among the, not only the cast, the crew, but also the director was one of, wow, where was that? What was that? And where was that? And so full participation, there's a way in which when we ask clients what max value is, we want them to explore and get clear on what max value is, even as a starting point, because the starting point may actually not be what max value is. But it becomes a starting point and a watermark by which they can then reference in the training session that coaching is to level up how they're showing up and delivering the results that they're wanting to deliver.
SPEAKER_05:
Yes. I even love that that director created a moment of like, listen, guys, we got it. Hey, I can think about with our clients like, listen, the bills are paid. Nobody's getting fired today. Hey, we've you got air in your lungs. Everything's OK. What if we just try this? Just play with it for a second. You know, what if in this session, we just imagine a world in which you do something nuts? What might that be? Yeah, yeah. You know, Damar, one of the things that I think is important to reinforce, and your story reminds me of this, is how full participation does in fact enhance the participation of others involved. So however qualified you feel your coach is, I can guarantee that if you were to participate in a way that might create maximum value for you, it influences how your coach is going to advocate and show up for you. I've been a keynote speaker for years, and I've spoken in front of audiences of thousands of people in a room just of three or four people. I've spoken to a room that would laugh at every single joke I tell, and they're on the edge of their seat with every point I'm making. And I've spoken at a maximum security juvenile detention center. So these were minors who had committed murder. And one of the rules in that context was that they could not make a sound while I was speaking. And so I was speaking to a room with no visible or audio response to it. And I can tell you it changed how I communicated to them. And so the way you participate does in fact enhance those who are enrolled in your success or enrolled in your future. So there may be a way that practicing full participation in a coaching session is also going to enhance how you show up with your team, how you show up with your kids, how you show up with your family or your faith community. So your participation has influence. It's not only for what you're going to get out of it, but what you might create in the world around you.
SPEAKER_07:
Yeah, it's coming to mind that we often say when one person in a system changes, the system changes. And I've mentioned that to clients when three months into coaching, they're experiencing transformation and they said, you know, oh, I got in an argument with my husband this morning because I'm starting to shift in my views on this or I advocated for my vision around something and that was unexpected because that was a change in the system. You know, so that we love it. I love it when the transformation that's happening in the coaching space has that ripple effect into other parts of life that are meaningful for our clients. And an example comes to mind of a client I was working with. She was a new chief of staff and she was responsible for coordinating a weekly, like all hands meeting, basically. And I'll say all hands among like those that were her colleagues. So it was the entire leadership team across divisions. And she had an explicit request out to them to please come with these key points ready. In fact, I think she might have asked them to email them in advance. But that didn't happen. So then she like pulled back, she like, decreased her expectation and eventually was like, okay. And so I'm learning about this afterward, right? When we're talking about the fact that everyone showed up at this meeting one day with no preparation. In fact, I think like half of them were late. And she and I were a few months into coaching and she had answered this question, what is max value? And we had thought about, okay, what does full participation look like? We thought about that so many times. that her immediate response was, OK, we're not clear as a team yet on what is max value for this meeting and what does full participation look like. And I've used that as an example again and again when working with a new CEO now, and one of his immediate takeaways is, wow, I really think we can create max value in our meetings by thinking differently about this. So all to say that when one person in the system changes, the system changes. And that can create a lot of value. Like thinking about, you know, someone who, if your company is paying for your coaching, and then let's say the team that reports to them is benefiting from that coaching, it's a generative effect. We've heard that time and again from our clients.
SPEAKER_05:
Okay, we've covered a lot of ground here. Maximum value, what is it? Why do we sometimes resist it or have a difficult time articulating it, but why it's so important to do that and how the way we participate increases the odds that we're going to get some of that value out of whatever we're experiencing. But let's just say that we've got some listeners who are feeling stuck in their coaching relationship. They might be working with a better performance coach. They may be working with a coach from, through some other modality or affiliation. I bet there's more value available to us, but I'm feeling stuck right now. Do you have any encouragement or invitation to somebody listening who wants more than they're currently experiencing in their coaching partnership?
SPEAKER_07:
My mind immediately goes to, great, what's more? Get specific. If you could have more, if you knew the answer was yes, what is that? And that serves as a breadcrumb then to, okay, what requests might you have of your coach? Or what requests might you have of yourself?
SPEAKER_03:
One of the things that I think about when you say stuck, something I've been tinkering with is that stuck is really just a way of avoiding making a decision. that through that lens question that I will often ask a client or invite them into is to explore the options that are available and to try on choosing one of them. That stuck is usually a result of neither option or the various options being appealing enough to make a choice on.
SPEAKER_05:
So they're feeling stuck, they're in a coaching relationship. If you have a client that's like, I'm just feeling so stuck, is there like an exercise you'd be inviting them into or a question that you feel kind of helps address that, that you've not already mentioned?
SPEAKER_03:
One of the things that I tend to do is I, you know, I beg, borrow and steal from my acting experience. And oftentimes from a somatic or an emotional standpoint, stuck has has a feeling within the body. The emotion clients are often when asked, they can actually feel where it exists within the body. Sometimes stuck is in the stomach. Sometimes it's in the upper chest. For some people, it might be just in their head. I just feel stuck in my head. I feel like it's in my head. There's often a posture or a stance that's stuck in the body. can be embodied. Maybe it's slouching, maybe it's one hand on the hip, but for that client it is something. And I will at times invite the client to embody stuck, to identify where stuck is, where does it live in their body, get really connected with it. And once they're really connected with it, I'll then invite them to take on a different embodiment. Like say, for instance, freedom. Where does freedom live within you? What does that feel like? where within your body is that. What's the posture of freedom that you would take on right now in this moment? And then get them connected with that. The really fun part of that is that I have yet to work with somebody who's not able to get resource from the exploration of a different posture just by changing their physical geography. who's able to get resource that is useful to them moving forward in a way that they weren't able to before, simply just by exploring the body and their emotions.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, and to connect some dots for our listeners, my sense of that, Damar, is you're inviting them into a different kind of participation than maybe they had practiced before or hadn't paid much attention to is, okay, what if your entire self was involved in the unstuckness here? And I can see where a client at first would say, oh, that feels superstitious or ooey-gooey, and yet there's so much incredible neuroscience to back up the idea of how your body sometimes gets to tell your mind that you're up to something. That there is a dance or a posture or like you said, the environment, how are you sitting, where are your shoulders at, where are you feeling it in your body? They get you acquainted with how you're choosing a stuckness. Good news, you can choose an unstuckness by participating in it and maybe out of the ordinary way. That's beautiful.
SPEAKER_03:
Yeah, because I got to tell you, there's times where I've gone into audition rooms, and I'm shaking in my boots, and I'm nervous, and I'm anxious, and even as I'm taking the elevator up, I can't remember the first line, and I'm just like, oh no, it's like the panic's coming out, I don't even remember the first line, I've been working on this for hours, and all these things are going through my mind, and I can't tell you the power there is when I connect to that, I catch myself in my awareness, and I notice how I'm standing, my posture, my breathing, and the opportunity that I then have to choose to stand in a different way, to actually widen my stance, to put my shoulders back, to stick my chest out, to not breathe from my chest, to breathe from my stomach, breathe from my diaphragm, and to walk into that audition room and see the competition, but in that posture, how in a matter of probably 90 seconds or two minutes, that my breathing, my anxiety, everything settles down. in a marked way, in a very measurable way just by changing the physical geography. So again, highlighting, I agree, participation, what does that look like even just within ourselves?
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, and for our clients, how might that change the way you walk into a boardroom, you walk into that conflict, you come home at night and open the front door, you are showing up with the volunteer work that you're doing. If you're just paying attention to like, huh, interesting, that's a message and a signal that my body is giving me and I could choose to go one direction with it, but I also have now agency to choose something different with how I'm moving through the world and what that might be opening up my brain to do in this moment. So it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_03:
Yes. Telling your brain it's safe. Sending the message the other way that, you know, there's a way in which the brain receives the message that like, oh, oh, he's really caught. He's in a really great situation out there. So everyone just chill out, relax. He's in control. Oh, he's in command. I can feel like he's really confident and he's in command. And meanwhile, it's like, no, I'm not. But the brain, the brain is getting the message. Like, oh, he's totally cool. He's got this.
SPEAKER_04:
It's beautiful. It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_07:
You know, in listening to you talk about the somatic markers and paying attention to those, what I hear in that that could be resourceful to listeners is actually that there is a belief that there's resource. So if I'm feeling stuck, if I believe that there is resource available to me, it might be like one, One indicator could be how I'm feeling in my body and how that, the shift that I could get creative, what shift might I want to create. Other resource that I might explore with a client is how are they relating to their vision in that moment? Is it actually creating passion for them? Is it so clear that it incites passion for them and compels them to move forward? Or even if there were blockers, to them getting where they wanna go, what might those be? And we might think creatively about designing, what are those blockers and how might they be disrupted? So I think the belief that resource is available, it's a bit of a step one there. And then creativity comes in. Creativity and the more your skill as a coach and our different experiences come in and we get to create out of stuckness.
SPEAKER_05:
I even love that reframing right there. Jennifer, that might've been a gift for somebody right now is what if your stuckness is a canvas of creativity? Like, huh, what if there's a innovative way? The stuckness is awakening an opportunity for innovation that otherwise we wouldn't be exploring. If you didn't feel stuck in this way or you weren't looking at this particular obstacle, who would we get to become? How would we participate? If we are the kind of person who overcomes this, we're the kind of person who leverages moments like this. Beautiful.
SPEAKER_07:
Yeah, that's good.
SPEAKER_03:
That imitation.
SPEAKER_07:
So we've talked about max value equals full participation. And I'm thinking of those of you listening and you might be thinking like, okay, great. How do I relate to that? And we encourage our clients and individuals, teams that we're working with to relate to that as a tool. It's a tool that you have available to you in a moment when you want to move forward. And you may or may not be clear on what you want to create out of something. So max value equals full participation is that tool that you would apply in that moment of aspiration where you have a hunch that there's something more here and I want to create it. So it's a tool for aspiration. And in a moment when we want to create something of value, let's say max value, in a moment we want to create max value, then we would pick up this tool to identify first, what is that max value? And then who do I need to become to make it happen? And it's a tool to create what doesn't yet exist toward vision. So like if my vision is to create a family trip, like no other trip we've ever had, I would get very clear on what are the words that we're saying by the end when we're like taking the flight home. What are the words we're saying? What are the memories that we're reminiscing on already? Like what are the photos that we are taking with us? Like what are those specific experiences that we've created and then work back from that fixed point that informs for me then what might full participation look like? And so max value equals full participation is actually an incubator for the life that we wanna live. That's why it's a tool that when we pick it up and when we use it, it actually changes our lives.
SPEAKER_03:
I love that. I love that. And it makes me think of, I think building on what you're saying, that max value, that at its heart, it's a tool for moving from what is aspirational in terms of the point on the horizon, that vision, that picture of the future that produces passion. What is it in this session, in this day, in this week, in this month, this year, moving from the aspirational down to full participation, to operational. What does it look like? Now, who do I need to become? What does this look like from an operational, from a tactical, from an active standpoint? What are the nuclear next steps in order to move from that aspirational max value into full participation where I'm not only achieving what I want, but I'm also becoming who I need to become in order to achieve what I want in the most fulfilling and satisfactory way.
SPEAKER_05:
I have loved having this conversation with you two. I'm humbled that I get to serve in this world with the both of you, knowing the results that you've gotten with clients. And I think even more importantly, knowing how you advocate for the people that we get to serve. Today we've had a conversation that I know is going to help a lot of people who are considering whether or not coaching would be the next right step for them, or they're in a current coaching relationship and wanting to create something else. Maybe something more, something different, wanting to get unstuck. And we've introduced a framework that they can use to make that decision, but also they can pull into an existing coaching relationship to get even more value. out of that partnership, which might produce results in their measurable vision, their finances, other things that they want to accomplish. But more importantly, I think that what we've explored today is who they get to become as a result of going after what they truly want. Thank you both so much for your time today.
SPEAKER_07:
My pleasure.
SPEAKER_03:
My pleasure. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:
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