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In this episode of Hospitable, Rob Napoli chats with Olaf van Heperen, senior technology partner at Eversheds Sutherland, a global top 10 law practice, to discuss the use of AI in the hospitality industry and its impact on customer profiling and facial recognition and how it will continue to shape the industry.
We also discuss the EU AI Act and its implications for AI regulation worldwide. Join us as we explore the opportunities and challenges that AI presents in creating more human experiences in hospitality.
We also discuss the EU AI Act and its implications for AI regulation worldwide. Join us as we explore the opportunities and challenges that AI presents in creating more human experiences in hospitality.
Tune in to learn more about the intersection of technology and hospitality.
Don't forget to subscribe and review!
Timestamps:
[00:00:00] AI in the hospitality industry.
[00:05:41] Technology-driven changes in hospitality.
[00:09:02] Cross-continent data flow challenges.
[00:15:37] Human connection in hospitality.
[00:17:19] The human element of creativity.
[00:21:18] The worst travel story.
[00:24:47] Jumping on the pod.
Shownotes:
00:05:09 Hospitality industry becoming technology-driven.
00:06:43 Data and AI impact hospitality.
00:16:23 AI enhances, but cannot replace, human creativity.
00:18:36 Human connection is irreplaceable.
00:24:35 Connect with Olaf for more information.
Connect:
Olaf van Haperen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olaf-van-haperen-260321/
Omniboost: www.omniboost.com
Rob Napoli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robnap/
Show Produced by: Niranjan Deshpande (Nick), Broken Frames Studio, www.brokenframesstudio.com
Creators & Guests
Host
What is Hospitable?
Hospitable is a podcast that discusses how to make hospitality MORE human through technology.
Hospitable focuses on discussing the leading challenges facing the hospitality industry and to explore the latest trends, technologies, and best practices that are shaping the industry. Each episode features interviews with hoteliers, restaurateurs, chefs, industry analysts, and other experts who share their insights and experiences on topics such as customer experience, sustainability, innovation, staffing, and more.
Hosted by Rob Napoli
OmniBoost_EP 09_Olaf Van Haperen_Video Podcast Transcript
00:00:00:09 - 00:00:24:23
Olaf Van Haperen
I think to take one step back, a lot of people don't see how AI is now already used. I mean, you can't do facial recognition with it without AI. You can't do the customer profiling without AI. So it's already used, but it's now becoming with degenerative AI and all the publicity around getting to be it's now really all over the place.
00:00:24:24 - 00:00:34:23
Olaf Van Haperen
And and it will continue. Right.
00:00:35:00 - 00:00:55:14
Rob Napoli
Hi, how are you doing? We're back for another episode of Hospitable. Hospitable as a podcast or the hospitality industry where we discuss and we discover how to be more human through technology, with technology in the hospitality space. And today my guest is Olaf Van Haperen
00:00:55:14 - 00:00:56:23
Olaf Van Haperen
And their story.
00:00:57:02 - 00:01:12:23
Rob Napoli
Plus, that's not so. He's a senior technology partner at Eversheds Sutherland, and it's a global top ten law practice and he does a lot of legal advice and work in the hospitality industry. And so I wanted to bring him on and kind of speak to that today. So thank you so much for joining the podcast.
00:01:12:23 - 00:01:14:22
Olaf Van Haperen
Yeah, my pleasure.
00:01:14:24 - 00:01:24:24
Rob Napoli
Yes. So excited to have you on and Kees has told me a lot about you, mostly, mostly good stories and well.
00:01:25:01 - 00:01:27:13
Olaf Van Haperen
I've known them for a long time. So. Yeah.
00:01:27:15 - 00:01:38:15
Rob Napoli
Yeah. So tell me a little bit how did you find your way into law? Is this something you knew you wanted to early? Talk to me a little bit. How you got your way into the legal side of things?
00:01:38:19 - 00:02:02:02
Olaf Van Haperen
Well, it's actually started when I went to university. I went to study with study biology, which is completely different. But after about a year, I thought my career perspective is like being in front of a classroom the rest of my life or in a lab coat. So I then thought what else is well, what else can you do that will open up the world for you?
00:02:02:02 - 00:02:27:10
Olaf Van Haperen
And then I thought, Well, law, it's both easy to study because it's like a course in reading and writing. So that sort of set me up studying law. And when I finished getting my law degree, I started at law firm and they said, Well, you did some years at biology as well. So you probably know technology, so you do that.
00:02:27:12 - 00:02:47:07
Olaf Van Haperen
So that's how I ended up in law and, and in the technology space. And to be honest, it does help sometimes because you've got a different way of thinking if you've got a technology background or a better a more scientific background. So yeah, it helped me a lot.
00:02:47:09 - 00:03:04:11
Rob Napoli
Yeah. Of that and say and I have known Kees for a long time and what people don't realize, a lot of people I don't know Kees well yet realized that he actually has a law degree himself. So how did you and Kees meet like what was the origin story of you and Kees
00:03:04:16 - 00:03:23:22
Olaf Van Haperen
Well I think I met Kees about 20 years ago when he was a junior legal counsel at a financial institution. And while we came in contact, he became our client. Then at least the company you worked for. And that's how we met. Yeah.
00:03:23:22 - 00:03:32:02
Rob Napoli
So the story goes. And now, 20 years later, still I'm still kicking. It's joining the podcast and all that good stuff, right?
00:03:32:03 - 00:03:36:07
Olaf Van Haperen
Yeah, exactly. So.
00:03:36:09 - 00:04:06:04
Rob Napoli
when we look at this podcast about hospitality and working and legal now you've worked with a lot of hospitality companies and probably a fair share of the tech side of things. When you think about hospitality, what is that word mean to you? Like personally, and what are some of the things that you have just noticed is kind of interesting trends from your own world, from a legal view that has happened in the hospitality space over the last few years?
00:04:06:06 - 00:04:44:15
Olaf Van Haperen
Well, hospitality for me personally is about feeling welcome, warm, being seen as a guest, being treated as a guest, maybe as part of the family. And if you look at law, then I think about five years ago, eight years ago, the only thing I really did was involved with in technology and hospitality was implementations gone wrong as a piece, implementations that went out of scope and people were arguing.
00:04:44:15 - 00:05:13:22
Olaf Van Haperen
So it was always either on from an I.T. perspective, getting into a fight or but over the last few years, it's become so data driven that the I know. So the CEO of Microsoft said I think five or six years ago, everybody's becoming a technology company. And I think that applies to the hospitality for hospitality as well.
00:05:13:22 - 00:05:45:20
Olaf Van Haperen
It's so technology and data driven now that that now when five or ten years ago in this firm, the lead partner for our Dallas company would be either somebody doing employment or somebody doing corporate. And now often the lead partners are the commercial partners because it's the technology. So yeah, it's massive change.
00:05:45:22 - 00:06:08:00
Rob Napoli
Yeah. And talk about has had a kind of companies becoming technology companies and now we look at you do a lot with data. How is the industry is as we are more digital right there's OTAs there's all these other companies, there's companies like Omniboost right. And there's a flow of data, customer data.
00:06:08:00 - 00:06:25:20
Rob Napoli
We talked about your definition of hospitality coming in and being felt like one of the family. How should or what are the changes that have happened with the flow of that data? Because we now have more data on each customer that walks in, because you have a social profile, you have a company profile, all these things.
00:06:25:22 - 00:06:35:16
Rob Napoli
How has that affected and affected or effected the hospitality industry for the better? And what are some of the things that from a legal space are like for we got to be careful here?
00:06:35:18 - 00:07:04:20
Olaf Van Haperen
Well, I think, it's a knife that cuts both ways. It opens up any so much possibilities on. Well, I'm profiling clients on getting your data, not only personal data, but data on the use of products and services. So there's a whole world of opportunities. On the other hand, as the knowledge cuts both ways, it's it's also dangerous to be too aggressive.
00:07:04:20 - 00:07:36:22
Olaf Van Haperen
What you do with data and now, especially in these times of cyber security hacks breaches, while if you look at what happened to Marriott, the Marriott Hotel chain several years ago, which was quite a well known case where they took over a software company and they didn't really put do their due diligence right. So they overlooked a breach and they got a fine and it was not a small fine.
00:07:36:22 - 00:08:00:14
Olaf Van Haperen
It was a multi, multi million pounds fine they got because they they were breached and didn't report it. And while the Marriott chain itself was utterly innocent, but they bought the company so they were responsible for it. So yeah. Yeah. It, it has upped the stakes, the use of so much data.
00:08:00:16 - 00:08:22:11
Rob Napoli
And it's interesting because you can track so much about a person and know what to push at the right time in the right place. But with that comes more opportunities for, for breaches to happen, etc. it's really interesting of hospitality industry, right? Hospitality, it's global. You've got airlines and hotels and all these things that are global, but you have so much uniqueness.
00:08:22:12 - 00:08:48:19
Rob Napoli
So Europe to the US, to the Middle East, to Asia PAC all have different legal requirements and issues. What do you see with kind of the flow of that data as is if I travel across the world to other parts of the world, like how does that affect for a marriott or somebody to to be paying to be to be smart about that data depending on where the location is?
00:08:48:21 - 00:09:26:14
Olaf Van Haperen
Well, it's basically it's a huge challenge. So airlines have specific carve outs in legislation to exchange information. But for example, hotel chains don't. So being able to well, send your data, your the personal data of guests, for example, from the European continent into the US is challenging and constantly changing because two weeks ago we had the EU, the new EU U.S. adequacy.
00:09:26:16 - 00:10:01:02
Olaf Van Haperen
but a certain Mr. Schrems has already announced that he's going to fight that, that the European courts as well. So we might end up with a ban on cross continent data flows US EU in a year or two again. So it's and I think one of the biggest challenges for all the all the legal people active in the hospitality industry such as the legal councils and the legal departments of the big chains and of course is staying on top of things there.
00:10:01:02 - 00:10:28:03
Olaf Van Haperen
So there's so much happening. And we've got NAS 2 which is a cybersecurity directive coming up which will apply, you need to be ready. There's going to be notification obligations. You need to have your internal processes right. And that's even not to speak of all the stuff that's coming. So, yeah, it's a challenging legal landscape for, for the industry.
00:10:28:05 - 00:10:52:08
Rob Napoli
Yeah. And as so I find that so fascinating because growing up I'm a I'm an elder millennial so I knew time before internet and then when dial up came and after it Internet right. But we have so many digital natives coming up and they're so used to having their data collected and slowed and moved and being able to show up in different places and have all that accessible.
00:10:52:08 - 00:11:07:02
Rob Napoli
So I think these legislations make it really interesting for especially digital natives as, as they travel and start exploring the world more and being more involved in, in the travel space or hospitality or being guest is going to be really interesting to see how that plays out.
00:11:07:07 - 00:11:07:14
Olaf Van Haperen
Yeah.
00:11:07:20 - 00:11:28:14
Rob Napoli
Then you mentioned AI as a huge topic for everything and I'm a huge proponent of Chat GPT and leveraging some of the things, but how do you see that affecting? I would just say the hospitality space, but the space in general from a data perspective, from a data legal perspective, I'm sure this is got to be something that keeps you up at night, doesn't keep you up at night.
00:11:28:14 - 00:11:30:16
Rob Napoli
What what's your thoughts on that? Well.
00:11:30:18 - 00:12:05:05
Olaf Van Haperen
Not being a digital native, it's sometimes hard to keep up. But we try and we do. Some of our clients are the leading parties in the world on AI, so we were supposed to be on top of it. The EU has announced the UHI Act, which is going to be the first piece of regulatory law that's that that will probably come into place worldwide, even banning certain forms of AI.
00:12:05:07 - 00:12:32:18
Olaf Van Haperen
But it's so I think to take one step back, a lot of people don't see how AI is now already used. I mean you can do facial recognition without AI.You can't do customer profiling without. So it's already used, but it's now becoming with the generative AI and all the all the publicity around GTP, it's now really all over the place.
00:12:32:19 - 00:13:08:10
Olaf Van Haperen
And and it will continue. I mean, Microsoft will some simple for Microsoft will be building chatty copy in PowerPoint, in words, in Outlook. You know, you send this and send Rob an email on this and this and you need to have that content giving you a draft. And so it will be a digital responsive environment all around us, and that will probably apply for the hospitality industry as well.
00:13:08:10 - 00:13:22:10
Olaf Van Haperen
So, whether you're in a hotel room or traveling or need to book a book, a journey or a stay, whatever it's going to be, well, it's yeah, it's going to be bigger than the Internet, basically.
00:13:22:12 - 00:13:43:06
Rob Napoli
Yeah. I think it's really interesting because, I know that there's already some different apps and things that you could do to get charge tied into Syria on your phone and ask it have to do like, hey, you know what? This type of I need something to take to a party that is gluten free, blah blah and come up with a recipe and he has to go to the store and buy like there's so much that could happen.
00:13:43:06 - 00:14:02:02
Rob Napoli
But think about that from the hospitality industry, right? Earlier this year, I was in Cabo and we were looking at all the different things that we wanted to do and build an itinerary. And I've seen some of my friends who've gone to like Lisbon in London, and they put in a chat with you about like, give me an itinerary of the best things to do in Lisbon, food.
00:14:02:02 - 00:14:02:21
Olaf Van Haperen
00:14:02:23 - 00:14:06:06
Rob Napoli
Hiking, food, drink, whatever. And then they built an itinerary.
00:14:06:11 - 00:14:07:15
Olaf Van Haperen
Yeah.
00:14:07:17 - 00:14:22:18
Rob Napoli
As a guest of the hotel, you can get you could build that in your hotel room, and then you can go downstairs and talk to the agent to get everything booked. Like it changed the game. On how you experience experiences and get those things booked and interact with it with the hotel staff etc..
00:14:22:20 - 00:14:58:06
Olaf Van Haperen
Yeah, and again, this also works well. What we see in our practice is that it's sort of either companies are looking at it from, you know, creating new services, new value, but they're also allows companies to look at it from a cost cutting perspective. I was talking to a software development company a month ago, and they had been doing all proof of concept studies with code rates for and code pilots from GitHub, which is smart and Amazon.
00:14:58:08 - 00:15:16:08
Olaf Van Haperen
And they're thinking of hiring 30% less junior software developers because there are these items. So you can look at it from a cost cutting perspective but also new services and well, it's game changing in that regard.
00:15:16:10 - 00:15:34:18
Rob Napoli
Yeah, I think that is interesting is that yes, it may everyone's like, oh, as they take those jobs, it may take some jobs to open up new jobs, new services, new opportunities, because the end of the day, especially in hospitality, right. When you think about hospitable, what that means, we want to see all seen. We want to feel warmth.
00:15:34:18 - 00:15:52:06
Rob Napoli
We want to feel connected in that space. So there's still nothing that's going to take away the fact that we are humans and we crave human connection. I think we saw that with the world sit down. A lot of people didn't realize how much they needed that human connection. It just changes the way that human connection happens.
00:15:52:08 - 00:16:44:05
Olaf Van Haperen
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Go through this. Told us that, real face to face time, human interaction is vital. I mean, I see it in our firm. I see it in my clients that working from home is slowly changing, at least going forward to a large extent back to the office for that interaction. And the other thing is that the nature of an AI isn't creative, and I'll get into a lot of discussions with a lot of technology people, but as we see creativity and I mean an AI has had a learning database and if it's depending on the type of AI, it's constantly learning, but it can't think out of the box
00:16:44:07 - 00:17:15:13
Olaf Van Haperen
And when you in hospitality where you want to, go above and beyond for your customer, for your clients, you will need creativity and basically more or less the same as in law. without within our profession, you've got a lot of discussions about air will take over the legal profession. But in the end, if you look at a case law at at re Creative solutions, there's no learning database with that solution.
00:17:15:13 - 00:17:21:07
Olaf Van Haperen
So yeah, the human factor will always be decisive. Yeah.
00:17:21:09 - 00:17:36:24
Rob Napoli
I love how you use the word creativity because you can argue that it can be creative and how it pulls data and that's up at the end of the day. Can't be creative in the fact that our human brain, a human element, there's something to it that is creative and the way we interact, the way problem solve, the way we be human.
00:17:36:24 - 00:18:00:07
Rob Napoli
Because sometimes creativity comes from a rational database, a rational thought. Yeah, Sometimes creativity comes from an irrational, subconscious experiential thing that just naturally happens that you're not actually even sure how you came up with that, but that creativity is there. It sparked something. So I love that you share that because that really resonates with me. I was like, Why the human element?
00:18:00:07 - 00:18:18:13
Rob Napoli
And now we're both here on a Friday afternoon and me in the morning working from home that I hate working from home. And I know a lot of people are like work from home, but now I'm I'm opposite. I live in New York City for a reason. Yeah, right. I want to feel the hustle, the bustle. I want to feel that energy.
00:18:18:13 - 00:18:34:05
Rob Napoli
When you walk into the city and say, I have been to New York a couple of times. When you walk here just walking, you feel that energy. You can be tired, it gets tired and you walk into the city. You feel the energy for everybody else. And I feed off that, which is why I live in a city like this.
00:18:34:05 - 00:18:54:08
Rob Napoli
I'm not. Everyone's like that. But I do think that, we realize that human connectivity, human creativity, human emotion, human connection is such a big piece that while AI as amazing, is going to do so much for us as as the industry changes and evolves, I don't think it's ever going to take away this. And I love being able to talk on a screen.
00:18:54:08 - 00:19:03:19
Rob Napoli
I would love if you don't do that, I'd love to go to this more person, right? Like so then so much more fun about just being in that same room together and feeding off each other in a way that you can't always do on a screen.
00:19:03:21 - 00:19:23:14
Olaf Van Haperen
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, studies show that, if people communicate, only 23% is actually the sound that you make, the words that you did, you speak and the rest is all nonverbal. That relays the message. So yeah, yeah. You see a lot of that loss.
00:19:23:16 - 00:19:44:01
Rob Napoli
Yeah, it does. And I truly believe in this, this flow of energy from humans. And when you're in that room with somebody that your, your, your, your natural bodies are just connecting on different levels because of, of, of all of that. And I think that creates such a unique, palpable experience in itself and that gets lost. So I love that.
00:19:44:03 - 00:19:45:19
Rob Napoli
so as we kind of close out, I really want to.
00:19:45:20 - 00:19:51:04
Olaf Van Haperen
Always be traveling there for And so exactly like hospitality.
00:19:51:06 - 00:20:13:05
Rob Napoli
Exactly right. And that's what's so unique. Right. And I know that it's amazing what we can do to provide people who do not have the ability to travel experiences. Right. But I think there's something about stepping out and stepping onto that beach or stepping onto the cliffs. The more or visiting some small town in Southeast Asia and experiencing the food and the culture and all that.
00:20:13:05 - 00:20:32:07
Rob Napoli
Right? And so we're always going to be out moving. That being said, I love to ask this question. I know that you you got into law because you wanted to travel. You wanted a job that can allow you to go across the world. Give me your best travel story, the one time that you just like when somebody says, what's your best travel story?
00:20:32:07 - 00:20:38:13
Rob Napoli
What's your best memory and your worst travel story? The time that you're like that sucked
00:20:38:15 - 00:20:58:11
Olaf Van Haperen
why I think the best is, well, it's a bit corny, but it's my honeymoon. So we went to Bali and we food together. We dive to join with the big manta rays that was way beyond last year. I had the privilege to dive with with a whale shark. But six years.
00:20:58:13 - 00:20:59:06
Rob Napoli
Ago in Mexico, where.
00:20:59:06 - 00:21:01:05
Olaf Van Haperen
Were you? And I was down here.
00:21:01:08 - 00:21:01:15
Rob Napoli
In La.
00:21:01:15 - 00:21:02:22
Olaf Van Haperen
Paz. Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:03:03 - 00:21:06:24
Rob Napoli
So I did that. I did that this year, January one. The best experiences ever.
00:21:07:00 - 00:21:39:22
Olaf Van Haperen
Absolutely. But the but the meant to dive together with that new life with manta rays that top date, that was really incredible. And I think the worst travel story was so we have this this this thing in our family that once one of our kids goes to high school, it gets to travel Europe in the city and I go with in this case with my son.
00:21:39:24 - 00:22:03:24
Olaf Van Haperen
And I asked him, where do you want to go? And he said, well, I don't really mind city, but I want to visit a game, a football game of major city. So I, I booked a hotel. I went online to see why Manchester City would be playing and it will be playing cards on a certain date.
00:22:03:24 - 00:22:26:08
Olaf Van Haperen
So I booked a flight, I booked hotel, I got me two tickets, and then I didn't know two months prior to the game, the game was canceled. So I went online and I said, Well, there's another game. Manchester United, Manchester City was playing Brighton Hove Albion. So I thought, Well, great, buy tickets for that game. And we were leaving on a Friday.
00:22:26:08 - 00:22:49:12
Olaf Van Haperen
And on Thursday evening I came home late and I thought, You know what? I'm going to print out the boarding passes and the tickets to the game. And I don't know if you know anything about football, but so I printed out the tickets for the game and it says Manchester City, Brighton Hove Albion. So I said, okay, good.
00:22:49:14 - 00:23:18:01
Olaf Van Haperen
But something caught my eye. And then I looked again and it said Wembley Stadium and I thought, Shit, Wembley Stadium is in London and I've got tickets to fly to, to Manchester, I've got a hotel in Manchester. So I spent half the night rebooking my flights and getting in a hotel in London. And when I picked up my son after school on Friday, I said, I've good news and bad news.
00:23:18:01 - 00:23:35:05
Olaf Van Haperen
The bad news is we're not going to Manchester City. The good news is that we're going to Wembley Stadium to see the essay Cup semifinal because that why that was why the game wasn't in Wembley. So yeah, that was my worst rival. Sorry.
00:23:35:07 - 00:23:41:02
Rob Napoli
That had been. I bet that was like sheer panic. Oh, yeah, let's go. I'm like, Oh shit.
00:23:41:04 - 00:23:41:14
Olaf Van Haperen
That gives.
00:23:41:14 - 00:23:43:13
Rob Napoli
You had to figure it out.
00:23:43:15 - 00:23:44:13
Olaf Van Haperen
Exactly.
00:23:44:15 - 00:24:02:09
Rob Napoli
Yeah. Oh, man, I love it off. And I appreciate you very for jumping on the pod and sharing and really chatting. I was really excited because I know that is your background, so I really wanted to talk about, how it's going to impact the hospitality space and appreciate it for just, you know, spending a Friday afternoon.
00:24:02:09 - 00:24:19:23
Rob Napoli
I know it's a summer Friday weather's probably nice and wanting to get outside and enjoy the weekend. So I appreciate you taking some time with me here of how can you know for the listeners out there how can they follow along with what you're doing. I get in touch if they ever have questions or things of that nature.
00:24:20:00 - 00:24:34:11
Olaf Van Haperen
Well, I got a pretty good profile on the Internet. So if you look at my name and you connect connected to either lawyer or data or eversheds, then for sure you'll find me.
00:24:34:13 - 00:24:53:22
Rob Napoli
Well, I'm actually I have that also put in your LinkedIn just they have a starting point in the show notes. If you want to get in touch with all of please just click the show notes. You can find that off. Thank you again for being a part of the Omniverse family. And I know you a case go way back and for jump on the pod and finish some time with me.
00:24:53:22 - 00:24:56:13
Rob Napoli
I'm really excited. It was a lot of fun. So appreciate you, my guys.
00:24:56:13 - 00:24:58:00
Olaf Van Haperen
My pleasure. Thank you.