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From the subtleties of typography to the emotional impact of color, and the way everyday objects influence our lives, our guests share their unique perspectives on the power of design. Through candid interviews, we’ll get a closer look at the challenges they’ve faced, the breakthroughs they’ve had, and how design is not just about aesthetics, but about problem-solving, communication, and making an impact.
Join host Rae, as Type Speaks aims to inspire, inform, and showcase the voices behind the visuals.
This podcast is supported by WEGL 91.1 FM, Auburn University’s radio station. weglfm.com
Hello. Welcome in. You're now listening to TypeSpeaks. I'm of course one of your hosts, Ray, with my other host. Hey, I'm Emmy.
And we are joined today with a very special guest, Robert Finkel. Say hi. Hey, everybody. I have a little bit of an introduction for you. So if anything's wrong, please tell me.
I did Google you. Hi. So Google Google could be wrong. So you are a designer and educator at Auburn University where we are right now, WEGL, a one point one FM. You serve as the program chair and associate professor of graphic design.
You've taught courses in typography, graphic design history, and visual identity. You've also coauthored a book, the IBM poster program, visual memoranda. Mhmm. Is that how you say that word? Mhmm.
And have worked on other projects such as Alabama's Gulf State Park, signage, Lee County's remembrance project, and the Red Rock Trail System. And I was gonna list out some of the logos you've done, but that seemed a like a long list. So I just said I just wrote down as well as many, many logos. That's right. So anything else you'd like to say about yourself?
No. I'm thrilled to be here. This is wonderful. Awesome. So I'm glad the introduction worked well.
I get so nervous when I write things like that, because what if I get stuff wrong? Especially with you, like, right here in the room. And we're just Really? No. It was all accurate.
I was trying to think what projects did you forget. I'm not not not nah. And we should also say that you are one of our professors. That's true. I mean, because professors.
I actually I only had you for graphic design history, and I haven't had you for an actual studio. I know. Yeah. I I missed y'all's entire cohort. Yeah.
And I wanna have y'all senior project because I I won't be doing it next spring. So but y'all somehow survived. That's good. I wasn't supposed to IO you. Except for graphic design history.
And then you popped into my schedule. Design 1. Yeah. Yeah. Because of yeah.
Yeah. Well, you know, it worked out alright. It worked out. Class was great this semester, I thought. Yes.
I did too. I I think yeah. You know? Yeah. I I was quite pleased with a lot of the the aspects of class.
And, you know, teaching is one of those things where it's like, you're always kind of prototyping in, you know, real life. You know, it's like you don't you don't have a chance sometimes to, like, test something and then and then change it. You had to kinda do it on the fly. And and most of the stuff, we kinda keep consistent, but we're always looking to change things. And I changed a few things this semester, and some things worked and some things didn't.
Mhmm. That's the way it goes. I feel like I have this is a great segue because I'm gonna ask you about teaching. Okay. Let's hear it.
Because I feel like a good first episode is talking about teaching because I feel like with that, you can't really be a designer without learning design. Yes. Fun fact. Yeah. Yeah.
You have to learn it to do it. So one of the first questions I wanted to ask, because I'm always curious when I when I talk to professors or even as I think about them, I'm like, why why are you here? So what inspired you to pursue design? And especially, like, why did you wanna become, like, a professor and a teacher for design? Yes.
So I think there's, the answer has kind of 2 phases. I think I wanted to do design well, I wanted to do advertising. I kinda had this, I guess, kinda romantic notion of of advertising and and the kind of, you know, glory and riches and everything that may come with it and and the creativity and and the and the fun. And and it is a lot of that stuff, but but then I kind of discovered there's also a lot of stuff that it wasn't, and and I wasn't kind of being filled. So I, yeah, so I kinda came into design.
I have a a undergraduate degree in sociology and anthropology and kinda came to design in a really backward sort of way. One thing I really enjoyed, and I always had this kinda artistic inclination like so many of us did, but we didn't know what graphic design was maybe as kids. Mhmm. But stuff I would draw as kids were, like, football logos, like, in a grid, like, literally, and, like, real, you know, profiles of cars and things. Nothing, you know, and always because it was always that kind of design centric artistic expression.
I remember in undergraduate when I was studying anthropology, got really kinda interested in petroglyphs and and pictographs and all of of the Anasazi culture. And, you know, when you start looking at those, those are in some ways, you know, not to diminish them, but they're logos. Right? They're, like, you know, really kind of, they're icons. You know?
One in particular, out in a place called Chaco Canyon, we went to visit as as a class in in college. And there's this great combination of 3 symbols, a hand, a starburst, and a moon, if I'm remembering correctly. And it was the, the the culture kind of recorded that they saw this, like, supernova, you know, way back in, like, you know, 1000 of years ago. But it was just this, like, beautiful kind of set of icons that have this, like, very, very rich, expression of a collective experience. And so that's probably, like, what I like about designers.
Really, you know, maybe this gets a little heady, but but it's that kind of communication aspect. And so I was encouraged and and to, like, hey. Let's let's go to design school and actually learn how to do this stuff. And then, yeah, I practiced for several years, in Birmingham and was kind of within branding and identity design, and, really kinda cut my chops there for a couple of years. And, and then, honestly, the the economy of 2,008, you know, put a lot of, you know, designers and a lot of people out of work, myself included.
But, fortunately, I was kinda starting to look at going to graduate school to get a proper master's degree with the idea of going into higher education. Because some of the stuff I was getting more interested in regarding design was less about this kind of commercial practice. And and this was the era of early design blogs like Design Observer and Under Consideration. And then I was really interested in reading about, you know, design history and and hearing people's kind of, you know, discuss it and not argue it in a bad way, but just, you know, debate it. And I was like, oh, I'm kinda missing that in my commercial practice, and and that's that's why I'm here, I guess.
Yeah. Like, I've it's so funny because in high school, during COVID, it, like, reminded me, I learned the Mayan alphabet Oh, yeah. Which is basically glyphs or symbols Glyphs. They're symbols. Yeah.
Before I even knew I wanted to do graphic design. Yeah. I do. I don't know if that just reminded of that because I was like, I saw them in Tomb Raider, and I thought they looked cool, so I learned them. So that was a I was like, oh, it's not as common of an experience.
I just thought it was. Yeah. I yeah. Yeah. There was a a middle school or high school.
I remember I drew a alphabet made of knives. That's pretty awful, the idea. But yeah. No. You should you should put that on the font.
Yeah. That's where you'd find that. If I can find that that sketch or something. Yeah. It was funny.
Yeah. I, yeah, I feel like with with design teaching, it goes a lot into digging deeper than I think a lot of commercial design typically goes into, if that makes any sense. Yes. In in, like, in the fields of commercial design, I feel like it is something that I am a little bit nervous about going into because I'm it's kind of like, okay, finish this, make it look good, do it again, make it look good, finish it, make it look good, finish it. But I feel like when you transition to teaching, it goes more into, like, okay.
Why, and how does it how do you teach someone how to make something look good? Well so I would say looking good is not the end. Right? That's not the that's not the result, or that's not the the the the objective at all times. And I and I would say there's a couple of things, yeah, that I think I can kinda relate to that for sure.
Like, first off, I think the kind of deadline driven commercial practice and and budgets and other things, I mean, these are all aspects of reality that we do have to kinda conform to, can make your design become very formulaic and rote. Paul Sherwood call it, you become very solemn. Mhmm. And, you know, when you start becoming solemn and formulaic, then it starts becoming a chore. But, you gotta learn how to stay serious is the other thing that she says, how to be a serious designer, which means it could be serious play.
It could be serious research. It could be serious exploration, and that, you know, feeds the the kind of creative solutions to, you know, these kind of communication problems. And, yeah, sometimes it's gonna look really good, and that's gonna be the end result. But sometimes it's gonna also kind of, you know, hit you in a more, in a deeper way than just the aesthetics. And so, yeah, that's why we I think as an educator and and and hopefully, I've, you know, gotten better in my practice and we're teaching you guys and y'all's practice to, like, really do that research and really trust the process and kind of give yourself the time to explore and not think that you're you have to go in a very linear way, that it's just step 1 to 2 to 3 to 4.
It's it's just not like that. And the best design, I don't think, ever gets created that way. Mhmm. I had a question later on that I think will be a good task now, but it is for me. I don't know how I would.
So if you can't answer this, let me know. But how would you define good design, and are there, like, specific things you think student designers should consider to try to make good design? Yes. So, yeah. There's so many kind of ways of expressing this sentiment.
You hear from Tom Geismar, the identity designer, says good design or good logo design is about appropriateness, versatility, and distinctiveness. You know? So it's appropriate for the client or for whatever you're trying to communicate. It's distinctive and memorable so that our audience will, you know, remembers it. And it's versatile.
It can kinda be applied to a lot of different sort of, medias. So I think that's one way to look at it. I think, you know, Milton Glaser says, good design is when it informs and it delights. So it kinda hits both your left and right brains, I guess. It teaches you or tells you something, in a very kind of informational way, but it's also hitting you in a very emotional way.
That's where the artistic side of things come through. Paul Rand will call it beauty and utility, a kind of a a variation of, you know, form followed functions. So I'm not I don't know what my my answer is. I think all these other people who have said it so beautifully already, but I do think, I think kind of clarity of intent is very important for me, in judging a design or even my designer or a student's design or looking at other works that's out there. Clarity of intent, and I think kind of an aesthetic versatility, you know, that design is never just a logo, a book, a poster.
It connects to, like, maybe other, again, other medias or other forms of communications. And so it's gotta be versatile. And it's also maybe just summed up with the word smart. You know? It's it's conceptual, and it's clever, and it's, maybe has wit about it.
And it just I don't know. You kinda know it when you see it sometimes, and it just makes you kinda stop and say, that's nice. That's good design. You know? Yeah.
I I think for, like, when I was in high school, I, like, had no idea what I wanted to do. I thought I wanted to go into science, which is crazy thinking about it now because, like, why would I go into science? But, like, I grew up liking art a lot, but not really knowing where I fit into that and how how you define yourself as a student as a good as a good art student. Yeah. I think that's kind of I've con I've kinda continued that as a as a college student is, like, I think every student has this where it's like, where where do the where's the point where I can confidently say my work is good?
I think every student has that question where it's like, okay. Is it is it the grade that I get? Is that good? Is it that I like it? Is it that I finished it?
I think that was a question that I think everyone asks themselves at the end of the semester Yeah. When you're like, okay, I gotta finish this, but it looks kind of not great. But I kinda feel satisfied with it, but am I happy with it? Is it good? Is it bad?
And you kinda leave it up in the air because you want that grade. Is there a way you think students can, like, judge their work? This is a a weird question, but, like, unbiased. Yes. I yeah.
I think there yeah. There is. I mean, there's a quote that I love by, well, it's it's in a book by Jack Kerouac, called the Dharma Buns, and he's writing in the voice of a character named Joffe Ryder, who's inspired by the poet Gary Snyder. Long backstory. But his quote is that comparisons are odious.
Right? That we oftentimes kinda get in that traps of trying to compare ourselves our and and what I apply to is our work, to what other people are doing, and they can kind of create maybe our, you know, bad feelings about ourselves or about others. And and, so what I've kind of gotten to a point in, I think it comes with time because I still suffer from all those things that you said. Is my work good? What you know, how could I have done better?
I'm always beating myself up about every project I I turn in. But I think it's like is the did I just have fun doing the doing the project? I really have gotten it down to that point. I mean, did I spend my time the way I wanted to spend my time today or this week or this month? And most of the times, it is.
Yeah. I did kinda do what I wanted to do. I I like doing design. And I and I'm always hopeful that the work satisfies whatever sort of immediate kind of goal is to satisfy. And then I'm super thrilled when it might get recognized in some sort of, you know, reviewed way in in amongst my design peers.
And so yeah. I I don't know. Know, but I think it's what I've kinda more kind of come down to is, like, did I enjoy the process? Did I get a chance to learn about some stuff I didn't know before? That could be a technical, you know, process or or, you know, bit of kind of kind of computer, you know, technique, but it'd also just be about, like, the subject matter.
I've been doing a lot of collaborations with people from the public history department, and I just love it. Because I am just learning so much more about, well, in this case, this our state's history than I had before. And and it just so happens that I didn't get to do my design work on top of the content that they're helping me expose me to. So it's those are all days well spent. So that's what I would say.
Yeah. I was gonna I was gonna comment that I also feel like a lot of my school projects, at least, because that's basically what I've been doing now, I find a lot more pleasure and I enjoy working on it when it's something that I actually care about. So I'm really excited for my senior project coming up next semester because it's going to be something I care more about. So I was gonna ask you, with Auburn being a research institute and you having to do work outside of just teaching and, like, be actively in the workforce, what are some of the projects that you feel like you've had, like, a really, like, personal connection to that you're able to count towards that? Because I know you do a lot of work in, like, the political sector, but then you've also done the Lee County remembrance project, where I actually got to go see at that museum.
And I didn't realize it was you that made it. But I just, like, I really love the idea with, like, the dirt and everything, like, from those, historic places. And I was like, do you come up with a lot of these ideas? Like, where do you come up with your, where do you find your research and stuff? Because I know in this age I keep talking.
I know in this age, a lot of people often get or at least students are always getting their stuff just mainly online. But how do you try to push people to go out into the world and, like, do something that they're, like, passionate about for a better project? Yeah. Yeah. So so, first, that that that Lee County Remembers project, you know, that's part of a larger initiative by the equal justice, EGI, Eagle Justice Initiative.
And so Mhmm. I can't take credit for the concept of the of the soil and everything. That's part of what they were kind of charging local communities to to do. But but that was but but to use that project as an example, that was one of those cases where, you know, I kinda there I was kinda brought in a little bit late on it, but they had all this great content and research, and they've done all the the, you know, soil kind of ceremonies and gathering. And it was kind of delivered to me.
It was just, you know, it was just like, wow. I mean, this is like a history that's, you know, 80 years old, maybe. Some of those those racial terror lynchings weren't that far off. Mhmm. And, you know, I take it on as a like a very serious sort of project that I need to make sure I'm communicating this story kind of in a impactful way.
It goes back to the inform and delight. Now a story like that is not meant to be delightful, but it's meant to hit an emotion. Right? And so, yeah. So but your question was kinda about what maybe the the research side of things?
Yeah. The research and the inspiration side and, like, where does your process start with getting that information to build a project upon? Yeah. So oddly enough for me, it's more about writing, I think, than it is, say, sketching. I mean, it certainly is gonna be a sketching phase when I'm you know?
But I think I really I have to start with, like, writing and and, that sort of approach to kind of and and well, even before I start writing, I gotta read, you know, if I if I have copy that I'm supposed to be typesetting or or things like that. And as I'm reading that text, I'm, you know, making notes, you know, about a certain phrase or, you know, a certain visual that may come to mind. Sometimes they're very literal and sometimes it's like metaphorical. And, you know, I just kinda just keep jotting these things down. And slowly, a theme starts to get teased out.
You know, hopefully, a theme starts to get teased out. And it's oftentimes kind of a metaphorical theme. And then from there, I start kind of hammering on it as much as I can because, you know, you just kinda wanna you wanna communicate that, if it's a that metaphor, you know, as thoroughly as possible. And the metaphor is a great way for, you know, learning, right, and and and taking more creative approach to information. And, you know, it starts coming with visuals.
How do you how do you think of materials? And then when I kinda get to that point, then it's I start going out and searching for precedences. Right? I've I've really been more excited about that word, design precedences versus design inspiration. Yeah.
Because it's I think suggests is a process of research that's a little more rigorous. And so the precedents is where I'll, you know, maybe find some example of work that's you know, somebody else has done, and and I'll take note of it. But then I'll look up this individual or this firm and look at what else have they done because oftentimes, you know, they're not just one hit wonders. Mhmm. And then at that point, you know, you start going down the rabbit holes of other projects of of, you know, who are the to all the designers on their staff or or copywriters, I start, you know, I start looking them up, see what I mean is.
And it becomes like this almost investigation. You know? And and from there, then you, you know, you're off to the races. And then and then, you know, you take all that that stuff and you kind of say, alright. Not how can I do it better than the last guy, but how can I what can I learn from what they did?
How can I get in their minds? And how can I then apply what I think their process was to what I'm trying to do? And let's see if I can kind of achieve something that equal to to what I I find to be valuable. So yeah. I, like, find that part of, like, research and, like, finding the the main idea, the design, like, the most rewarding part of any project.
Oh, yeah. Because I feel like I spend at least at least for me, it's like I'll spend, like, a week when that I get introduced to a project where I'm just like, I have no idea what I'm doing. Like, I I don't have I don't I don't know what it's gonna look like. I don't know the color. I don't know anything about it, and it's, like, stresses me out.
But once I find that solid foundation, to me, it's like, I've gotten it. I can make a good project out of this. One of the things, you know, I know that I'm not alone in that struggle. I know a lot of students struggle with that, where it's like, how do I find something that can be rewarding for for me personally and I wanna work on, but also be successful based on, like, you know, you know, researching it and past things. I know I worked on that a lot with bio design, was we had to do a lot of research for that class, and it pushed me, you know, you know, farther than I ever ever had to research for a project before, because I had to be rooted in something that was, you know, scientific, and I just never ever had thought about that before with with design.
And I think that's like, the rewarding part is like that, like, the clicking of like, I can put this together and make it into something so much more communicable. Yeah. I had a question that was, like, what was the most rewarding part of teaching and the most challenging? At least for me, I know it's not teaching graphic design, but when I was when I help out with teaching over the summers with children, the most rewarding part for me is when I notice these 6 year olds, it clicks for them. Oh, yeah.
And I can like I'm like, oh my goodness. I just expanded that part of your mind, or now you can learn how to use scissors. Yeah. Yeah. I just taught you how to do that, and it just clicked for you.
Yeah. Are there, like, moments like that for you in, like, college for students of, like, hitting that rewarding part where you're like, I see it, and I see you learn? Oh, yeah. Yeah. All the time.
And, you know, sometimes it can happen within a single project, a single semester. Sometimes you see it over a year or 2 with a with a student. But, yeah, I think yeah. I share the same joy. I mean, I and I think that's that's probably one thing that links all, like, educators is, like, you're passionate about the subject, and you wanna convey that passion and get somebody else, you know, to kinda get excited about it.
And so, yeah, I remember one of my first teaching experiences, like, a graduate student trying to I can't remember the specific project or oh, no. I I I was trying to advise the student doing this poster. And so long, I can't remember. But she but I remember it. But the technical thing she overcame and that she learned was like blending modes, you know, in Photoshop, just layering.
And she was all excited about that. It was just this form, this technique. But I was like, what does the layering mean to you conceptually? You know, what's this sort of thread of of of message? And and again, I can't remember what exactly the poster was, but finally, she was able to articulate why she was blending all these colors together because it represents something.
And then I was like, good. Now you know what a concept is, a design concept. And she and she did. And I just remember that, like, I was like, yeah. That was that was cool.
That was great. You know? She she kinda got a click for her. So, yeah, those are really, like, the exciting parts of, of teaching. What was the other part of your question?
Oh, I asked. I was that was I asked what was the most, like, if if that's kind of the most rewarding part. Oh, yeah. Yeah. What's the most challenging part?
Yeah. Well, before I do the challenging part, because we don't have enough time. That's true. No. It's all a challenge.
The yeah. You can't talk about it with us here. Oh, yeah. I have to do that. You might be like, these 2 were the main challenge I've had.
No. I'm teasing. I, the the other rewarding part so if the if the first reward, I said turning the student on to something. The other reward that I'm definitely getting, this is gonna sound I mean, it does sound well, I'm not gonna make it sound cheesy, but, teaching has has been very clarifying for me in my process as a designer because, you know, what, you know, what do you guys what what do I ask? I've had heard more in studios, but with Ray in studios.
So what do I what's the first thing I ask when in critique somebody says I like it? Why do you like it? Exactly. And I have to ask myself that all the time. Now when I'm working especially I work on, you know, on on my own as a I have collaborators, but I'm the designer.
And I'm always having to ask myself, why do I think this is right? Or you know, so I've so critiques and the conversations I've had with you guys and me kind of pushing you all and trying to articulate how to improve your work has really made me a better designer because it's given me some kind of internal monologue processes to go through. And so that kind of clarification on my own kind of design, process has been a a great side effect of of teaching. Mhmm. So but now on to the challenges.
Well Well, there's 2 students. No. You know, honestly, I think the biggest challenge in teaching, it's not it's not the students. I mean, you you know, those it's not the any of the stuff that you you might think it is. I I it's the it's the technology, quite frankly.
I mean, it's it's hard to kind of keep up with it. It's hard to know what is being used in industry and how are we making sure we are preparing you guys for a marketplace that in 3 years might look drastically different than when you were a sophomore. Mhmm. And so so I I would say that's that's one of the most challenging things. Now, the way we can kind of, address that is that we, you know, our program has a professional advisory committee, and so we're constantly engaging with them to kind of understand what trends are they seeing, how is it relating to the work that that we show them, the student work, engaging with our alumni, asking them questions, the internship programs that we have, you guys kinda coming back from summers or or during semesters and and teaching us what you learned, you know, or telling us what you learned.
So, so but but the yeah. The the technology is the challenge. And I think that's probably with, you know, any any industry, any anything. Any job is is keeping up with it right now. So Yeah.
Which which is, I'll say, which is the why we try to teach the what we call foundations. Right? What are the things that will never change? The basic principles, the the the the rules, if you will, that are are kinda future proof, and don't get too bogged down in in a piece of software. Mhmm.
Because when I was going through design school, everybody's like, you have to use Adobe Flash. You know, we know what happened. I mean, that's That's us. And and I know my colleagues who teach web design, you know, started with Dreamweaver. And then the next year, they were teaching, it feels like a program called Fireworks maybe, and then Adobe XD, and then That's right.
Sigma, and then Webflow. And it's just like, gosh. Come on. So I remember, we had a a Zoom speaker one time, and he worked I don't even remember where he worked, but he was like, yeah. I use Figma, but next year, y'all could be using something totally different.
That's true. And I remember everyone being like, well, what's the point? What's the point of learning all this if next year, it's gonna be something totally different? Yeah. Well and that's the thing.
You know? I mean, the skills are definitely transferrable. Right? As long as you are, like, learning what the well, as long as you're learning what the transferrable skills are with those foundations, then the the technology is just a tool, and you just kind of with a little practice, you'll get up to speed fast. But yeah.
I think, like another transition to a question I had. Yeah. But, now it's comes back around. But I think this is a question that, like it came it came out to me when we had our day of design and it was centered around AI, and it kinda made me think about, you know, oh my goodness, there's so many technologies that I have no idea about. It's kind of scary because all my friends are computer science majors and they're talking about things that I couldn't even comprehend, but at least for design.
Because also they're always asking me questions about, oh my goodness. Are you afraid that AI is gonna take over design, Ray? Yeah. Oh, have you seen the new AI thing? And I just like, I need y'all to silence yourself for a second.
Slow down. We'll be okay. But Yeah. How to, like with, you know, being in teaching and just being a designer for so long, how do you kind of see the future of design evolving, especially because of, like, generative AI imagery that's coming up. I know we another one of our professors, Devon Ward, hasn't now included it in one of our classes because of just how it's being used professionally.
So how do you think that's going to evolve? I think Yeah. Not totally sure how it'll evolve, but but I'm not I'm not worried about it. I mean, it's, I think this to me, it it goes back to the content that you're dealing with and the people that you're working with. I think as long as those are are rich and and compelling and, you know, not just run of the mill.
You'll always be able to you'll always be valuable in the skills and everything. You won't be totally replaced. So, you know, I I don't know. I just I don't I just don't worry about it. Maybe this is me sticking my head in the sand.
I kinda like some of the things. You know, I use it very lightly for photo retouching and Mhmm. Not doing anything major like original artwork. Yeah. Because I'm not that's not my my I just don't need it yet.
I find it useful for some kind of presentation needs. Maybe I'm trying to show a concept that's, you know, not realized yet, especially, you know, if you have, like, large production work, you know, signage projects or things like this, whereas, you know, it's easier to, like, kinda get the impression of what you're trying to show kind of a as a maybe a visual stylescape or something like that. But, but at the end of the day, you know, the the product's gotta be produced in in real life, and, AI is not gonna replace, you know, that. Now the other side of it, I think some of the work I do is is print based, and it's signage based. And those deal with actual materials and the people, so it's not just on the Yeah.
But, yeah, I don't know. I I'm not gonna worry about it yet. I have a total sidebar. Please. But did you guys see the Pantone color of the year video?
The mocha mousse. The mocha mousse thing? It was so like, complete AI video. It was really bad. And then everyone in the comments were, like, complaining.
They're like, you make us spend, like, so much to buy one of those Pantone swatch books, and then you can't pay a designer to make a video about your color of the year. Yeah. But I just thought I was shocked and not shocked at the at the color and then the video. I was like, it's brown, and you're gonna use AI? Like, come on now.
Yeah. Why is this brown? I I saw the yeah. I saw the color. Like, what was the rationale behind it?
I isn't it, like, what's trending? Like, the colors that are trending? Yeah. But then last year was, like, some kinda, like, pinkish, like, fuchsia ish color, but I don't I don't really understand how it works. Seen it.
I don't yeah. If y'all I mean, y'all know me a little bit. Color is like my well, I I I'm really going to appreciate kinda color in my design, but I just black, white, and red. I'm just I like just high contrast That was typography. That was the thing in my our recent project.
We were looking around the room, and all of us were, like, making books. And everyone's either using blue or red or just black and white. And it was just the funniest thing because it would be, like, one wall, everyone was using blue. The other wall, it was all, like, black and white and red. I was like, oh, we like stuff, and we're we like black, white, white, and red.
Our the podcast logo is black, white, and red. You know, well, you know, it's it's for you know, for me, I what got me so excited about design in the in the turning point was typography. And and typography is about shape, and you need high contrast. And so black and white or, you know, black and maybe maybe a cream paper stock. We we don't and then, like, a warm, you know, a warm red.
Mhmm. That's like, oh, that just hits it every time. I I prefer a a cool red, personally. Ugh. Sorry.
What can I say? No. No. Putting a little bit of blue in there? No.
Yes. I want the warm red. I don't want any orange in my red. No. No.
No. That's crazy. Yeah. That's crazy. I like What do you mean it's crazy?
Orange is such a pretty color. It's so great. Yeah. I like me a cool red. Nah.
Oh, okay. Alright. Suit yourself. K. I've never used it in a project yet, so maybe I'm wrong.
But Hey. But on the AI, there's a big, Paul Scheer project that was AI this week. The job she, it was a government project performance.gov, and and and but all the illustrations were AI generated. But Oh, I think I did see this. Yeah.
It's been panned, and it's been celebrated as you would. And and for somebody, you know, at the kind of higher echelons of our industry, you know, she'll be up for all that criticism. But they were I mean, I feel like what they were attempting to do was create something by hand, scan it in, and then let AI do something to it. And then, what, maybe output it and mess it up and then yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I remember seeing that on LinkedIn. Yeah. So And people were complaining. And yeah.
So but I think when you use a tool like that as a collaborator, right, you know, you're not letting it totally dictate all your design decisions. It it can be very useful. And we've seen that with, like, every arts. I mean, there is if y'all if y'all ever watched the the documentary music video thing, Pink Floyd's Live at Pompeii, they're, like, they're being interviewed at Abbey Road Studios in, like, the cafeteria. And, you know, one of the comments in there this is when they're exploring with all these synthesizers and stuff.
And the comment is like, well, you can't let the machine control you. You have to control the machine. And, yeah, we're doing this kind of electronic music, but it's we're not we still have control of it. And that's that's the I always think about that quote when it comes to some of these things. Yeah.
I think that's what I personally see it moving into is, like, a little bit of a, like, a tool that we use. Yeah. And I I I like that. But I kind of this is like a little bit not a serious question, but I wanted to ask it because I've always, I just always wonder this as like any any because you know, we I all my English professors have said that like, please do not use Chat GPT on your writing. I can tell them I can tell immediately.
Has there been an instance of, like, a student using AI and trying to pass it off as their own work? I just I'm I'm just pure curiosity. Pure curiosity. Not that I know of. Okay.
But but, yeah, but now I, like, feel like I'm gonna be, like, right for being, taken advantage of. But I Don't do this. Yeah. Don't do this. But I I think but, you know, we certainly encourage, you know, be open about your use of AI, you know, because there is kinda some value in it on certain, you know, certain projects, certain parts of a project.
But I but, you know, what I've seen, like, the AI images that are kind of bunk are, you ever seen I mean, the AI doesn't know how to do typography. No. Mm-mm. Like, if you if you're trying to do, like, a a photo of, like, a main street, and you would imagine you would have these signs for different storefronts. It has no idea what it's doing with type, and that's been the thing that I've I've always kind of noticed first.
It's like Mhmm. That's not that's not true. Body copy. But yeah. That's not true.
It just makes it like it'll like, you can kinda tell it's trying to make it look words, but it's not. Or something. Yeah. And I feel like that has something to do, like, with, like, just symbols. Like, because typography is just symbols.
Mhmm. Yeah. And so it's just, like, certain shapes that we have come to have a meaning for. And so then it just doesn't understand that those Yeah. There's certain orders that they have to go in to make borders to make yeah.
It just throws in the patterns of how the shapes look like, and it's outputting that again Yeah. Yeah. Without understanding that it's a, like, a language that has rules. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So I think I think yeah. So that's the first thing I look at Mhmm. In in it if I'm questioning the image. I think with Peapod, there's a there's a commercial, for one of the, like, kind of hunger nonprofits.
I swear it looks like the the kids are AI because there's no, like when they talk, there's no, like, wrinkling of their face. It's just like they're perfectly smooth and talking. I'm like, those can't be real faces. I I don't know. It's you know?
I I get kinda paranoid now. I, like, see something on especially, like, advertisements. Yeah. I'll just be like, that person does not look real, and I don't know if I'm becoming, like, hyper paranoid. Yeah.
I'm like, oh, this person's not real. But it it's it's something where it's like, oh, like, I can count like, I can tell, but then I'm, like, scared that one day I won't be able to tell. Yeah. And so and then it probably will be. Right?
It's always it's gonna get better, presumably. So how do we combat that? My thinking is that you don't combat it with what you combat it with various detection detection sort of technologies, but I think you combat it with, like, ethics. Mhmm. Right?
I mean, you know, you combat it with education and, classes and courses that have these sort of sense of ethics instilled in them. Like, what are you doing with, you know, your talent? Is it ethical? Is it honest? Is it in the benefit of the world or your community or whatnot, and and it's not intentionally misleading or manipulating?
And so, I I don't know. Maybe that's kind of a romantic notion of Mhmm. Of teaching, certainly. But I think that's I don't know. That's where I I would I would start there.
Mhmm. You know? Responsible usage, which it just comes down to ethics moralities. My brother, who's a cybersecurity major, he had to sign, like, a I don't know if it was legally binding, but it was like a contract saying that he wouldn't be an evil hacker. Yeah.
He'd be an ethical like an ethical hacker. I know that all of the engineering majors have to take ethics because they all go into, like, missiles and stuff. Go into what? Missiles? Yeah.
Well, like, if you go into aerospace and stuff, you're gonna Defense. A lot of times you go into defense or a lot of engineering goes into that. So my sister is in engineering, and they have to take an ethics class, but we didn't for graphic design. Do you think we should have a graphic design ethics class? Yes.
Or we sign one where it says you won't be an evil designer? Yeah. I know. I think I mean, yeah, I think it'd be a really fascinating course. You know, I think it's because, although we may not be well, because we're putting messages out there.
Right? Are we putting messages that are, you know, true? Are we putting messages that are, you know, beneficial again to society? I mean, it's a it's a fine line between, you know, propaganda that's, you know, espousing, you know, bad information and and and we are the ones who have the control of putting that stuff out there. The other side of it is like, you know, you know, you do, like, kind of, you know if you were forced to do a logo for a company whose values you didn't, you don't it doesn't align with your values, but you needed it for the money, like, what would you do?
Mhmm. I don't know. These are, like, kinda heavy questions if you get down to it. And I remember I've I I almost said I remember, but I don't remember because it's a brand new thing I'm thinking about. But I've always, like, wanted to have a class on, like, just copyright law.
Yeah. That's true. Like, that to me is, like, ethics and, like, fair use and all that stuff because I feel like sometimes I question that. I'm like, okay. It's okay to use this song on Instagram and TikTok, but it's not okay to use on YouTube.
It's is it okay to put on my portfolio or all these other questions that I feel like also kinda lean into, like, ethics Yeah. And, like, law Yeah. Where it's like I feel like at this point, I'm just having to Google, and maybe that should be a class. I don't know. Yeah.
Oh, and then and then within design, right, there's the when does homage cross the line to plagiarism? That's always a fascinating one. Because we know there's tons of historical examples of clear design homages. Right? But why did some people get away with it and others can't?
I don't know. Yeah. That's I mean those shirts at the mall that are like it's like ACDC, but it's like, the I don't know. Like Really, like, 5 like a CADC. Okay.
Wait. That's bad bad tip, but we have that at CADC. That was an homage. It was an homage. It was a joke.
I've got it on my computer right now. But, like, when you're making those, like made it as an iron on shirt, and I and I, yeah. That's where I started. I was like, I just wanna make this, and I did it and wore it in, like, a big picture, which I forget. Yeah.
Anyways I just, like, I I see all these things where it's, like, a famous album cover, but it's, like, different faces in there or something like that. And I'm always like Yeah. How did they get away with this? Yeah. Yeah.
But then sometimes you don't get away with it. Yeah. So yeah. Sometimes you don't. Some yeah.
It's but it's, yeah. I don't know. Design ethics would be a fascinating class. Maybe a symposium or something. That would be cool.
I feel like we don't have enough of the symposiums. They're all, like, studios and stuff Yeah. For Yeah. Graphic. I think that'd be really cool.
I do like studios, but I think a symposium would be cool. Yeah. Yeah. This I guess it's also the same question as, like I'm just now I'm just curious because, like, have you ever, like I know there's I've always seen lots of, like, discussion about this on, like, on on, like, design Instagram or design Twitter. I guess design x or whatever it's called now.
I don't care. I'm not even on there anymore. But Yeah. No. It was like, what constitutes design plagiarism versus just like, these are just symbols plagiarism versus just like these are just symbols that are common?
You know? Like, how do you how do you how do you decipher these two things have the same concept but are executed differently or these two things have the same concept and are too similar to be like a an accident? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you I mean, that's it goes back to process.
You know? Showing your process. How did you get there? Because, yeah, we're dealing with, you know, circle, triangle, square. We're dealing with, you know, certain color palettes, and and we're dealing with certain expectations cultural kind of expectations for what things should look like.
And I really it I think it goes down to what your what your input is, not so much what your output is. Mhmm. Because, eventually, yeah, our outputs are gonna have some similarities, but it's the journey that got us there that's gonna be the the thing that makes it yours. Mhmm. Yeah.
I think that's the main thing is like and so I just I always see those kind of controversies pop up where it's like, this thing looks so similar to this thing, and this thing looks they use the same red, and they use the same blue, and it can't be an accident. And I'm sitting there thinking that it's like, there's so many people this is so such like a like a no brainer, but I feel like we forget about it where there's so many people on this earth and there's so many designs on this earth Yeah. Earth that there has to be overlap. A 100%. And I feel like we're always like, that person copied the other person.
Yeah. But, like, that just happens because we're have this we have all have human brains that see the same things Yes. Come up with the same things. And then some stuff is very kind of just subconscious. And, yeah, I yeah.
That's, I've I've kinda gotten away from a lot of those diatribes that certainly from x and all. Because I yeah. I think they were missing the point. I mean, it's easy to point out things that are common. I mean, that's that's the that's the simplest form of critique is saying, well, this looks like your work looks like something I've already seen.
Well, that we have to get immediately past that. That's such a a surface level sort of commentary. But to me, it's like, why is it looking that way? How did we get to this point? And and that's where then that's where we learn from it from it.
So and get and get better. But, you know, so, you know, you maybe you had a question about research and and this and, again, I keep talking about process and research and input. This is why I find it kinda, like, subversive these days to, like, go to the library to get your research. Yeah. To to go out and walk around and take photos of your own stuff to go like, that's when it's like because everybody else is just going to the same websites, getting fed the same algorithms.
So let's let's you know, it's print printed books of subversive forms of research for people. Scanned in something, and they're like, what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. It's that yeah. Instead of, like, downloading the scan off of Adobe Stock, like, make it yourself. So I, yeah, that's where I I think, things get really exciting. Yeah.
It's like counterculture to use old technology now. It is. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
But often you see that being the better projects if someone has gone out and done more research because they can see that it actually works in the world, and it's not just what what do you feel about those, like, design, like, content creators that don't have, like, anything necessarily? Like, you know, I mean, they You have to give me example. I don't even know what it's about. Like, they don't like, I'm I I kinda know what you're thinking. They don't really have real they don't really do real projects, but they just kind of do things for the aesthetic.
But they like, they're like Oh, yeah. How to be a good designer, but own they've only done content for social media. That what you're kind of Yeah. That's what I that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah.
That stuff yeah. That kinda sickens me. Because, again, it's it's such a, it's just not real. Right? Or at least maybe it's let me back up.
I mean, it's a different definition of what design is, where it's the design is the sort of end product that looks good. Right? And that's it. But it's but design for me is about more than what the the end product is. It's again, that's about the research.
It's about the communication. It's about the feedback with the client, and you don't know how many revisions you've gone through. I mean, I'm on, like, my 6th revision for a book cover right now in the last 3 weeks, and it's you know? And and and you you those design content creators, is that what you call them? Or influencers?
Influencers. I mean, that stuff is yeah. So in a vacuum and away from all that Mhmm. That stuff. So I yeah.
I mean, yeah, on the doom scroll of Instagram, I'll see those, and I'm just like, ugh. But it's it's kinda gotten me kinda sick in the stomach, actually. Yeah. I feel like I always it's weird. I don't know how I can tell, but I feel like I can always tell something was designed for social media versus not for social media.
Like, I think I thought about this a little bit during my recent project where we did the poster series and we had an online version. But I was thinking about when I like stuff, and I can immediately tell that it was never, like, never gonna be printed. It was never gonna be Yeah. It's kinda just they put it together in Photoshop or in in design, and they didn't really think about anything else besides that. That make any sense?
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally. Yeah. The and I think in our field, mock ups have really kind of, like, skewed us to believe design is supposed to look a certain way in this in these mock up presentations.
Again, they're they're useful for I think as you have to think as a non designer, if you see a mock up that we create, they're like, wow. This is beautiful. How did you do this? Mhmm. I was like, oh, it's just like a layer in Photoshop.
Yeah. But, but when the work stops at the mock up, then, yeah, you're ignoring so many much nuances. Again, a a a project I'm working right now, I mean, in my office, I have 6 different, paper cloths, like, book cover cloths that I'm comparing. Mhmm. You know, trying to and I'm comparing tactile aspects of it.
How, you know, the toothy or textured it is, how shiny it is, the new, you know, subtleties of different grays. And an influencer who's designing for Instagram is just not actually doing that. Exactly. And that's the real process is yeah. It's, like, the tactile and, like, what it does once it's, like, in In hand.
In hands and everything. Like, especially with, like, posters and stuff, you have to make sure that the type is, like, something you can see if you're up close or far away. Yeah. Or And yeah. So yeah.
Yeah. Mhmm. So, you know, I don't wanna get another tangent because we don't have that much time left. But I did have some long. I did had some I did have some fun questions I wanted to ask Yeah.
To kind of end this off because I feel like those are always silly and goofy. Alright. What is a design trend you secretly love or you secretly hate? I guess that kinda goes with what we were just asking. Yeah.
Because you just said like, come and create Instagram. So I guess so I see yeah. I guess now is not a secret that I hate the design influencers or or or find find them to be they don't feed feed me intellectually or or yeah. Yeah. The design trend that I secretly like and I knew you were gonna ask me this, and I thought of 1 today, and then I I forgot this.
Give me one second. It was or is For me, it's those Yeah. Give give me For me, I I mentioned this before to someone. They didn't really understand what I meant by it. I really like things that are unintentionally ugly.
I have a I have a Yeah. I have a fascination with, like, the, like, the local Mexican restaurant that has used word for their logo. I understand. And I can just tell that it was someone's cousin who was like, I can design your logo for you. Yeah.
And it's so authentic and Oh, absolutely. Like, I even if it looks it's not it's not thought through, and it's not designed. They just made it for this purpose. I'm just so much like, this is beautiful. Even though it's not beautiful to it's like something about the feel that I love, and I've taken photos of it in my Instagram before where, like, I'll see, like, some random restaurant that's like I found one recently when I was I went to Atlanta, and we stopped, and it was called just called feeling good.
And I was like, this is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that stuff too.
Like, the you know, we would call it low design. Mhmm. And and I love how it's such a counterpoint to high design, what we are, you know, trying to typically teach and everything and and how there's an honesty and just immediacy and, like, pure kind of practicality to it. And, yeah, I like the vernacular lettering. And I'm I I love, and it's really because it's just so antithetical to to my design education experience.
I mean, I can never get away doing a a logo in Word. Maybe I should try and see if I could get away doing a logo in Word. That'd be kind of a fun challenge. That was one of the first, like, logo things I designed. I had a friend, and they're like, we have a little basketball team.
We wanna design 1. So I made it in Google Docs. I don't even know how I did that. You just, like, go to the insert shapes. Yes.
Exactly. Make it oh, I like this blue. I'll make it 3 d. Give it a drop shadow. Oh my gosh.
Word art? Do you remember Word art? Word art. I loved using that. Yeah.
I mean, that's our that's our gateway. That's kids into this world. Right? It's art with this kind of little technology bent and and there's maybe a typography bent to it. And and then next thing you know, you know, we're we're starting to to be trained as graphic designers.
I still can't think what the what the trend was that I secretly like. You know, y'all I thought y'all would be kinda surprised to learn. Bright neon colors? I don't know. Oh, yeah.
It was. I'm actually highly in the I'm so good at this, guys. Yeah. You know what? I actually I secretly secretly love is, the the Memphis style design aesthetic.
Yeah. The you know? Oh, yeah. For the nondesigners on in the listening to I always call it Saved by the Bell, the 19 eighties aesthetic. Yeah.
I really, like, kinda love that. It's, like, so wacky and colorful, and the the neon color is great. You know, it's very colorful. It's very bright. It's the very the the geometrics and the patterning.
I like it more in the furniture kinda architectural side than the graphic design side, but I think it's, yeah, something I secretly really kinda kinda like. And maybe you picked on it. It's the kinda very opposite of me, I think, in a lot of ways. The the red, white, and black. Exactly.
Yeah. It's not red, white, black. Green. Yeah. Exactly.
Yellow. Squiggles everywhere. That's kinda like awesome. I I would love a a Memphis coffee table just to Oh my gosh. Yes.
Again, it's just this kinda counterpoint to, like, other aspects. And I I I always try to seek that out in in a lot of ways, like, opposites because I think it helps us understand both sides better of Mhmm. Yeah. Of whatever. So yeah.
Definitely. That's my that's my guilty pleasure, Memphis style. Do you have anything last to say, Emiko? Oh. Oh, I can say my.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, good. I didn't even ask you because we got mine and It's fine.
No. I'm asking you now. Sitting over here. I'm asking you now. I I think I really enjoy those, like, really badly I like bad drawings.
Like, if someone will draw, like like, doodles. I like the doodles that people put onto things. Like, if someone draws a bear, but then you can see that there's a part where they, like, whited it out or scribbled it out or something. I just I love those, like, quick drawings that are, like, supposed to be ugly, but then, like, somehow people are able to market them to being, like, high art and stuff. Those are kind of trending now, I feel like.
I've seen I've seen, like, a couple, like I've seen it in tattoos a lot. I love the little tattoos, but then I know I can't get it. Tattoos. Yeah. But on purpose?
But, like, it's like the it's like the little line drawing ones. It's not like, like someone's eyes are off if their tattooing. I don't like that. So, like, so so you like that. Right?
So that was my next question. Next question? What what am I gonna ask you? Why do you Why do you like the indigo? I think I okay.
Listen. I like it because it is so human. That is one thing that I love about design and everything is, like, how human it can be. And you can just see, like, all the little lines where, like, someone has, like, had a mistake, and then you can see them drawing it. That's why I like it.
Yeah. I think that's and, I mean, that's to the point of, like, what Zuri is saying with, like, the logo of a restaurant that's done in Word. It's just very you kinda almost understand how that person did it or got there Mhmm. And what they were yeah. It's the human nature.
I think that's a very great observation. You know, design is is is wonderful. It can be very precise and mechanical and and and have some sort of promise of, like, a well oiled machined utopia. But, of course, that's never true. And and I think when you have those human elements, it kinda brings us back down to this is that this is kind of a form of expression that's Yeah.
Mhmm. Very it has a broad spectrum of of what that really entails. So I think it's a great end to today's episode. Wonderful. So I wanna say thank you for being on.
Absolutely. This was a blast. I had a great time. Yeah. I love the time.
I love, like, learning because I haven't had you as a professor really. Yeah. And so it was really nice to get to know, like, your background and everything and Yes. And why I enjoy design history so much is because you were so passionate about it. Awesome.
It was it was just like like because you mentioned that earlier when you're learning from other people that are passionate. I think that that like, just learning more about you and your choices and everything have really, like, inspired other people too in our Yeah. In our program. Oh, well, that's great to hear. It's a it's a great we got a great community of and and of graphic designers, students, and faculty and all.
So glad you're all a part of it. It's been an amazing experience so far for me, so I'm very very happy I'm I'm here. Excellent. But thank you so much again, and thank you all for listening to TypeSpeaks. You can hear us here on Spotify or on Apple Apple Podcast, wherever you're listening, or on weglfm.com.
You can hear us there. Fun fact. But thank you for listening, and tune in next time for the next episode of Type Speaks.