Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
What’s Your Why? The Authors Journey
Every writer has a story—long before the first word is written. "What's Your Why?" is the podcast where authors share the journeys, inspirations, and defining moments that shaped their craft. Whether you're a book lover, an aspiring writer, or simply fascinated by the creative process, this show takes you beyond the pages and into the minds of storytellers.
Join Emy diGrappa, Executive Producer, Wyoming Humanities, as we explore the passion, struggles, and triumphs that drive authors to write. Through in-depth interviews and solo reflections, we uncover the why behind the words—because behind every book, there’s a journey worth telling.
Tune in and get inspired by the voices behind the stories.
[00:00:00] Emy Digrappa: Welcome to What's Your Why? The Author's Journey, brought to you by Wyoming Humanities. I am your host, Emy Dig Grappa. My special guest today is Max Marshall, Max's writer living in Austin, Texas. His first book, which we'll discuss today, super excited about that is titled Among the Bros, A Fraternity Crime Story.
[00:00:23] And I learned by reading his bio actually that book is being worked on to turn into a movie. So that's super exciting as well. A feature film really. Is that what you'd call it, max? A feature film?
[00:00:38] Max Marshall: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A feature. Yeah. It's a standalone movie. I just finished the, the screenplay for, for Sony.
[00:00:46] About a month ago. So feeling excited.
[00:00:49] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh. So when you go through that process, are you kind of in a sense rewriting your book for the screen? Like you, you're having to look at it in a different, in a new way.
[00:01:02] Max Marshall: Definitely, I mean, you know, the whole, the old, uh, Marshall McLuhan quote, the medium is the message, you know, it's like, it's, it's such a different medium.
[00:01:09] Ultimately, well first of all, you know, it's, you know, 90 minutes to two hours and so you're ultimately cutting a lot. I think a lot of the time actually, short stories are novellas. Work better for movies than books. Just 'cause books. You know, you're sort of going off on all these different cul-de-sacs and you kind of build a whole world.
[00:01:28] It's almost in that sense, more like, I don't know, a season of a TV show or something, if you want to think in filmic terms. but yeah, there's that. But then of course there's just like, you can't go inside people's heads. You can't, you know, just come in as a narrator and explain here's what happened over the last summer, or something like that.
[00:01:45] There's, there's really only. Actions and, and dialogue. Um, and so it's, the constraints are very fun once you sort of give into them. but yeah, you have to give in to them. And then of course it goes from a true story to, based on a true story to, you know, inspired by a true story to, you know, a whisper of a true story
[00:02:08] Emy Digrappa: whisper.
[00:02:09] Yeah.
[00:02:10] Max Marshall: But, uh, it's fun. I mean, it's, it's something I had dreamed of doing since I was a kid and I never thought would get to do with this book. So yeah, it was, it was a great experience.
[00:02:21] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh. So are, are you done with that part of it? Is it now onto another level?
[00:02:26] Max Marshall: Yeah, so now the next phase is Sony sends it to directors and, you know, starts trying to develop it basically.
[00:02:34] Emy Digrappa: Okay. So,
[00:02:35] Max Marshall: it is, it is out of my hands.
[00:02:37] Emy Digrappa: Is that, oh my gosh. But is that, I don't know. Um, 'cause I've heard different things from writers. Um, whether or not it can be a frustrating or a satisfying journey.
[00:02:49] Max Marshall: You know, I think it's satisfying to learn a new form, and I love movies and I love thinking about, you know.
[00:02:57] You know, going and trying to watch movies that might be good comps for this, or, you know, try to mash up different movies in your head and think, you know, what could, what could work. I do think the frustrating part is, as a writer, a, you have a pretty clear pathway to people getting to experience your work and you get to share your work and that's just, you know, one of the best feelings.
[00:03:17] And with a movie, you write a screenplay and. Then you, it might be years, if at all, if anyone gets to see the, what you worked on. and yeah, I think the, the other thing of course is like going from total control and just sort of being the, the little dictator of the page to, you know, being part of this massive collaborative machine.
[00:03:37] But I think that's, that's, that can be good too. I mean, it's, it's obviously. Writing's a pretty solitary pursuit, but investigative journalism and the kind of journalism I do is, it's kind of a weird hot plunge, cold plunge where you go out in the field for a year or two years and you're just having all these conversations with people and really, you know, it's almost like I.
[00:03:57] Therapy sessions that you're recording. and then, but then you go into a cave and you write for a year or two. And so I think, uh, the movie is sort of, movie writing is sort of like that too, where it's like, there's parts of it. They're super collaborative and social and you know, a lot of people are throwing in ideas.
[00:04:15] and you're just one sort of, you know, stop on the, the assembly line, but another level, you still have the solitude of writing. So it's, it's a nice mix.
[00:04:25] Emy Digrappa: thinking about that, because I think it was Ernest Hemingway, we went to his house in Oh, nice West.
[00:04:34] Max Marshall: Yeah.
[00:04:34] Emy Digrappa: such an interesting story. Yeah.
[00:04:37] I think he was one of the first writers that, became part of the film industry. Where his, um, books were being turned into movies.
[00:04:50] Max Marshall: Definitely.
[00:04:51] Emy Digrappa: And it was just interesting his journey in that
[00:04:54] Max Marshall: a hundred percent. I mean, you know, that generation, of course Fitzgerald was spent a lot of time in Hollywood and you know, he wrote that famous essay, the Crack Up, basically about falling apart.
[00:05:04] And his journey to Hollywood went that badly. and you know, even people you don't think of as very. You know, sort of narrative nuts and bolts writers like Faulkner spent time in, in, uh, Hollywood and, and, and really the li the list goes on from, from then until now. I, I think, uh, Billy Wilder had a famous, uh, quote about Fitzgerald trying to be a screenwriter.
[00:05:26] And it was something like, uh, a master sculptor trying to learn how to do plumbing. Because screenwriting in a way, is, is much more plumbing. You gotta keep the water flowing and it's sort of, if you remove one pipe, then the water starts to spray everywhere or you know, you, you stop having flow and, and it's the sort of elegance of the construction is sort of secondary to just keeping things moving and having everything fit together.
[00:05:51] And I do think that is ultimately pretty different from writing a book, even from writing like a thriller. Kind of book. but for whatever reason, I mean, you can kind of guess why Hollywood continues to be the sort of, uh, sirens that writers can't help but getting off the boat and, and, you know, hopping on the island and seeing how they fare.
[00:06:12] Emy Digrappa: Yeah, true. I didn't, I didn't think about it like that, but I guess I just realized when I had never really thought about that era. You know, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, those, those great writers that when, I think cinematography was becoming a big thing. It had gone from like black and whites and there was becoming a new era of, of movie making.
[00:06:39] Max Marshall: Yeah, definitely. And, and, and also just moving from silent pictures to talkies and, you know, there's Yeah. And, and, yeah. And then all of a sudden the writer becomes, you think, in a very important part of the, the circus. Although, you know, I think writers find pretty quickly that Hollywood is not, a writer's town in that sense.
[00:06:58] You know, the ri it's. S I remember being reading early on, you know, filmmaking is a director's medium stage is the actor's medium, and TV's the writer's medium. 'cause you know, you have the TV show runner in the writer's room and they have to turn out so many episodes. And so in my mind I was like, oh, maybe.
[00:07:16] As a writer, you know, TV would be the dream. But I remember talking to a TV writer and I said, yeah, I heard, you know, film is a director's medium stage is an actor's medium, TV's the writer's medium. And he said they're all the medium of whoever's writing the checks. You know, and I think there's some, there's probably some truth to that.
[00:07:35] Emy Digrappa: Yep. Yep. I think so. Oh my gosh. So let's talk about you Max. 'cause I'm super excited about, um, hearing your journey where you grew up. Where you went to school and, um, kind of the inspiration behind the book you wrote.
[00:07:51] Max Marshall: Sure. So yeah, I grew up in Dallas, Texas. I, I think I'm a sixth or seventh generation Texan, but when people hear that, they imagine, you know, some, uh, old oil family or something.
[00:08:04] But my family were mostly, uh, cattle thiefs and, uh, I think I had one great. Uncle who died robbing a train or, or something and you know, bootleggers, that kind of thing. but I grew up in a pocket of Dallas that was very, uh, people call it the bubble or the fairway 'cause it kind of looks like a golf course, but it, you know, it's a very, Country clubby, private schooly kind of part of, uh, of Texas. And I went to an all boys school, that's, you know, a hundred years old and we all wear the same shorts no matter what the weather is. I, I actually really loved the school, um, but it definitely got me thinking about.
[00:08:47] A lot of the things that this book ultimately is about, you know, it was like this, kind of gilded bubble. It was all male. Uh, basically all of my friends, me included, went on to join fraternities. and that was just the world I was so seeped in that I almost didn't know the alternative. I guess the, the biggest formative experience that my childhood and, and sort of young adulthood was, one of the alums of my school was the, musician Steve Miller from the Steve Miller Band.
[00:09:16] and he came back. For my school's hundredth birthday, and I was a little blues guitar player and he heard me play. Um, and I guess kind of liked what he heard and invited me to play that concert. And after that started to kind of invite me to join him on the road, uh, and kind of tour with him. and yeah, that was all because of my, my school.
[00:09:36] But, uh, it was funny. He basically has enough greatest hits for a show minus about four songs. And so for those four songs, he's always looking for something interesting to keep the crowd going. And he, for, you know, some of his Texas tours or some shows in New York, the way he would keep it interesting is being like, here comes, you know, little Max Marshall to play some blue solos.
[00:09:56] And so I would come out and do that. but it was a, it was a very intense experience to play in front of these pretty, you know, I think, you know, one show there was maybe 15,000 people there. and that it was, it was just, it was an intense experience and I saw, I think the intensity with which he kind of attacked.
[00:10:14] Making music. and I think it, it very much fueled, uh, kind of how I wanted to approach writing once I got around to it, once I got to New York and, and kind of started college.
[00:10:25] Emy Digrappa: That is so interesting. And I always think about, the caste system or the caste society. Yeah. How it's very much alive and well in, in.
[00:10:37] The throughout the world,
[00:10:39] Max Marshall: absolutely.
[00:10:40] Emy Digrappa: You see it much more prevalent prevalently in like Mexico or um, Latin America. But it's interesting how the caste system, and I wish people knew more about the caste system because I happen to know a lot about it because I, had a dance company and we did, The whole journey of the Spaniard into Mexico and the Mestizo culture of course.
[00:11:09] And how, you know, um, if you were this class, you could wear this clothing if you were this class. You know, just going all the way back to the pure Indian who was on the lowest part of the totem pole.
[00:11:24] Max Marshall: Yeah.
[00:11:25] Emy Digrappa: but what you're explaining to me right now is a class system where you enter into a privilege based on where you go to school.
[00:11:35] Max Marshall: A hundred percent. And, and something that I, I thought was really interesting is, you know, so the book's called Among the Bros and it's about fraternity culture and, and one thing I felt that was missing. From writing about quote unquote bro culture and certainly writing about fraternities is a lot of the writing was very class blind.
[00:11:54] Like people really just talked about it in terms of masculinity, which is an interesting lens, but ultimately the fraternity system from the beginning, I. Has been about creating a separate campus for the elite. Before the sort of mid 18 or 18 hundreds, there wasn't even a need for fraternity system because basically all American students were elite students.
[00:12:18] Once you got to the college level. But sort of in the early to mid 1800's, all of a sudden you have, uh, middle class sort of farm kids showing up to want to be preachers, and all of a sudden all the guys from, you know, the equivalent of, you know, Greenwich, Connecticut sort of came together and said, you know, well, we don't want get drunk with these guys, so like, let's create our own club.
[00:12:38] And every time. US universities have become more inclusive, fraternities have become more exclusive. So like they didn't have language about excluding Jewish students until Jewish students of course show up. And, the racial language doesn't really pick up except for the, the most southern fraternities until the 20th century when schools start integrating.
[00:13:00] But getting back to what you're saying about Latin America, I think it's really interesting. It goes beyond fraternities, the idea of the bro. So like one of my friends, uh, who went to ut. UT and was in a fraternity at ut, he's a Venezuelan aristocrat, you know, cattle baron. And he went to the, the, the big sort of all boys private school, in Caracas.
[00:13:19] Now, of course, everyone was dispersed, so no one is, is still in Venezuela of his sort of cohort. They're all in Miami or Madrid or, you know, CDMX, but, uh, or in America. But he said that the like. The most socially dominant group of guys at his school in Caracas were called Los Bros. And so, you know, it's like, it's not just an American concept.
[00:13:44] I think it's exported from America, but I think it's, it really, yeah, that sort of cast system, can really take hold anywhere. Oh,
[00:13:52] Emy Digrappa: absolutely. so what made you, well, I, I did read in your bio that you consider yourself an investigative. Reporter, writer.
[00:14:03] Max Marshall: Yeah.
[00:14:04] Emy Digrappa: So tell me about that journey.
[00:14:06] Max Marshall: So, yeah, I mean, I wa I wasn't planning on doing investigative work.
[00:14:11] I basically, you know, as a musician, I thought I would kind of be doing music and culture writing. And, uh, after four years in New York for college, I, I moved to Hanoi, Vietnam to, you know, try to figure out, I was working as a journalist there, but I was, I was doing sort of cultural journalism and I had pitched a, a small web piece to GQ Magazine about a director who had made a King Kong movie filmed in Vietnam.
[00:14:42] The movie had done very well. Grossed like half a billion dollars. And he was in his early thirties and basically decided to leave la sell his house and move to Ho Chi Minh City and become the tourism ambassador. And I thought, okay, this is pretty interesting. I mean, that's worth at least, you know, like a sort of q and a.
[00:14:58] So I, I went out with him for Night Ho Chi Minh City took me to this nightclub we talked about Vietnam. I interviewed the author Viet Ngu about the, you know, cult cultural imperialism in, in Hollywood. And, you know, was gonna fold that together into a piece. And then right before the PE piece ran, he went back to that same nightclub and a dozen, uh, at the time, anonymous, sort of organized crime members.
[00:15:26] Uh, beat him almost to the point of death. They, they, basically destroyed this entire nightclub, flipped all the tables, destroyed a bunch of property, but then they started kicking him and sort of beating him into the ground. And then one of these, uh, organized criminals took a, a Hennessy bottle, uh, I think it was, and started smashing him in the, the head.
[00:15:44] And he had hemorrhages, contusions, internal bleeding, you know, all these things, but a really, really severe concussion to the point where he was out for about two weeks. And when he came to. the police told him, don't look into who did this. They're, they're sort of too connected. They're above our pay grade.
[00:16:01] And of course I was the only journalist he knew in Vietnam at the time. I was a, you know, a 22-year-old, uh, culture writer. But he called and asked, can you help me solve the case? And I didn't have anything going on. So I said, of of course. And so over the next year, I kind of learned, I. The tools, investigative journalism, you know, uh, everything from developing law enforcement sources, developing, you know, criminal world sources, finding the right primary documents, you know, building out a network of who to talk to.
[00:16:33] Just, you know, everything I, you I could figure out. And ultimately we did solve the case and it was, uh. these sort of Vietnamese Canadian, drug runners. I mean, they're connected to El Chapo, they're big time, drug, traffickers who, and one was wanted for murder in, in Canada and had fled to Vietnam.
[00:16:52] but, but yeah, that was kind of the beginning. I, I think.
[00:16:55] Emy Digrappa: Wow. Did you ever feel your life was in danger at all?
[00:17:00] Max Marshall: Yeah, I, I was, I was definitely in, in over my skis or, you know, whatever metaphor you wanna use. I was, uh, I was supposed to get escort scored outta the country by, like a, a little security team.
[00:17:14] I was talking to 'em and, and basically they said, okay, we're gonna have. Someone pick you up in this sort of armored vehicle and you're gonna lay low, we're gonna take you to the airport and you know, we're gonna talk on this encrypted cell phone or, you know, signal app. and at the end of the conversation I said, by the way, who are you investigating?
[00:17:30] And when I told them, they said, I'm sorry, that's too dangerous. We can't help you. Uh, but I suggest you, you take an Uber. And so, yeah, I took an Uber and, and every, you know, of course everyone was telling me to lay low, but I'm like a. White blonde, six, four guy. You know, like I, it was not, I, I just, I sort of felt like, you know, you go in with these sort of, uh, donkey hte fantasies of like, oh, I'm this like swashbuckling investigative journalist and this is like James Bond or something.
[00:17:59] And then pretty quickly realize, I am very afraid and please, you know, like I need to get outta here. and you know, I, you just, you, uh, your fantasies run into reality pretty quick of like, oh, they're actually very dangerous people out there who don't want these stories out there. and so you have to navigate that.
[00:18:18] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh. how fluent are you in Vietnamese?
[00:18:22] Max Marshall: Uh, not at all. I mean, so yeah, my year there I was, I was working for the, the English language. I. It was owned by the Vietnamese government, both the English language paper, and, uh, there's been a big push over the last 20 plus years to, uh, teach English there.
[00:18:37] Basically everyone takes English, and so I. Anytime I would talk to anyone, they all of course, wanted to practice their, their English, and so I, uh, and their, I think Vietnamese is a tonal language. It's, it, it has, I think even more tones than Cantonese. It's, it's, it, it, it's quite difficult. And so when I would try, people would just sort of scratch their head and then speak, you know, as.
[00:18:59] Very good English to me. So, but I did have some friends who definitely made fun of my, yeah, my lack of, of uh, Vietnamese ability, understandably.
[00:19:09] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh, that's so interesting. I can't, I can't imagine. My, my grandson is, um, adopted from Hong Kong. Oh,
[00:19:18] Max Marshall: wow.
[00:19:19] Emy Digrappa: And that's, yeah.
[00:19:21] Max Marshall: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. yeah, I mean, it's, uh, it's a absolutely beautiful place and I, I hope to go back, I think for a while I was afraid to after the, the piece came out.
[00:19:31] But, you know, I think it's been a long enough time and, also, I think as when you're young, you sort of overestimate the power of what investigative journalism could do and think, I thought like, oh, once this piece comes out, you know, everyone's gonna be on the run and like the police are gonna come in.
[00:19:44] But ultimately, the, the sort of head of this criminal group, uh, a year after the piece come out, opened his own nightclub and had a webcam running where you could see the nightclub at any time and you could just see him there, you know, getting bottle service and, yeah.
[00:20:00] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh. Well, so when you came back to the States and you had started your career in investigative journalism, is that when you decided to write the book?
[00:20:12] Max Marshall: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I, I think, uh, I had seen a lot of Xanax when I was in college. I was really surprised by just how much Xanax was a. A massively popular party drug. People were using it to just kind of black out on, you know, Thursday through Saturday nights. Um, and then also sort of an anxiety drug.
[00:20:36] People use it for their hangovers on, you know, Friday through Sunday mornings. I wanted to write about it somehow until when I was very young. I pitched Texas monthly. I just said there's a lot of Xanax in colleges. You can look at the overdose rates. They've actually. Outpaced opiate overdoses over the last 20 years, um, in terms of rate of increase.
[00:20:55] and my editor said, this sounds really interesting, but you need to find a specific story to write about. You know, you don't wanna just write a trend piece. And so after doing the, the GQ story and starting to learn about sort of international drug trafficking, I thought, okay, well what's the sort of crime story here?
[00:21:12] What's the supply side story? Because if I can write about where the supply is coming from, then you naturally work your way to getting to write about the demand. And I did the very investigative journalist thing of I, I literally just googled Xanax bust fraternity, and the first result I. It was about these guys at the College of Charleston who had been, uh, arrested with, they said 40,000 Xanax pills and a grenade launcher, uh, assault rifles, uh, you know, cocaine, LSD, uh, MDMA, a bunch of different things.
[00:21:47] And I was like, okay, this sounds interesting. I mean, 40,000 pills. That's more than I've ever seen in one place. Um, but then I called, uh, a defense lawyer. Who sort of let it slip on our first call that it was actually closer to 3 million pills and the police had never publicized, uh, just how much they found.
[00:22:10] And so then I realized there might be, you know, a book there.
[00:22:15] Emy Digrappa: Really good story. Yeah,
[00:22:16] Max Marshall: yeah.
[00:22:17] Emy Digrappa: Yeah. you know, as an investigative reporter, and thank God you were in the us, maybe not, thank God, because that sounds horrible, the whole. Like,
[00:22:25] Max Marshall: yeah.
[00:22:26] Emy Digrappa: Uh, when I was reading about your book, I thought, this is so surreal.
[00:22:29] Max Marshall: Yeah, definitely. Um, I think, yeah, surreal is definitely the right word. It's, it's, uh, it's sort of this absurdity that just like fractals further and further out of control the deeper you get into it.
[00:22:40] Emy Digrappa: I guess when I was reading about it, it just, and especially all the interviews you did about your book it with, you know, different, um, you know, the New York Times and.
[00:22:51] I can't remember all the places I read, but there were several interviews that were done with you about the book and
[00:22:57] it, it, I guess it just makes you sick to your stomach when,
[00:23:01] when you think about, especially one writer in one of your interviews I just recently read, said, these are our future politicians.
[00:23:12] Max Marshall: Yeah,
[00:23:13] Emy Digrappa: that's creepy.
[00:23:15] Max Marshall: it kind of gets back to the, the cast system thing. I mean the, uh, you know, when I was in college, a lot of fraternities would distribute these brochures that, you know, would have these statistics.
[00:23:25] And one I found on the Cornell website that we ended up reprinting in the book was something like All But For, and this was in 2016, but it was, or 2012, but it was all but before. Presidents since, uh, 1860, you know, something like 85% of Fortune 500 CEOs, over 70% of Supreme Court justices, and over 80% of senators, I'm paraphrasing the statistics, but it's in that ballpark.
[00:23:54] They were all fraternity alumni The way these brochures were sort of talking about is like, look what a great leadership, program fraternities are. It creates all of these future leaders. But I th and there might be some truth to that, but I think a lot of it's this sort of chicken and egg thing where it's like, well also fraternities are the group and Greek life more broadly are the sort of, uh, sorting house for the elite on American colleges.
[00:24:19] It's where the wealth goes because there's another statistic that fraternities don't publicize as much. Which is, well over, 50% of every dollar given to U US universities comes from Greek Life alumni, and you're talking about 3% of the population. So you're just seeing this sort of amount of wealth that's concentrated in this system and, yeah, so it's.
[00:24:44] It is, you know, future senators, future investment bankers. I mean, this is, that's the way the system works. And it's interesting, you know, like we live in, you know, sort of conspiratorial age and people like to think about secret societies and, you know, Illuminati or you know, a Knight's Templar or whatever it is.
[00:25:02] But really these things are hiding in plain sight. It's like, it's a, there are these sorting systems where, uh, country clubs are another one where like elite people get together in plain sight and there's a process where people apply and you kinda only get in if you're, if you're one of the, one of the boys.
[00:25:20] Emy Digrappa: So were you, were you also in a fraternity when you went to college?
[00:25:24] Max Marshall: I was, yeah. And, um, and my fraternity was, you know, I'm from Dallas, as we talked about. I think I was from the, the smallest town in my fraternity. It was all guys from like, uh, New York, la but also like, uh, Paris, Milan, London. But it was a lot of, but it was a lot of like boarding school, you know, Andover, Exeter or like prep school guys and, and yeah, it was very much.
[00:25:50] It was the, the sort of Columbia version. It wasn't, you know, southern, you know, SEC football, tailgates, it was like going clubbing and, you know, wearing, Todd's shoes or, you know, whatever. But like, it was, it, it was the same idea just in a different context.
[00:26:08] Emy Digrappa: Well, did they kind of, did you get ostracized or outed or, you know, were they, uh, um, upset that you wrote that, the story?
[00:26:17] Max Marshall: there were a few people maybe back home in Texas who were, who were upset, but I, I actually think, like, as I was writing the book, it was really important to me. It almost was guiding every sentence. I was thinking like, okay, well, I. Because, you know, I have family, uh, in small Texas towns, and then I have friends in, you know, uh, Bushwick, New York, who would never step foot in a, uh, anything having to do with Greek life.
[00:26:46] And I sort of would think with every sentence it was like, what's a sentence that. Both of these people can sort of meet under the tent and like either think is, uh, fair or will upset both of them, you know? But either way, that is sort of like, not just, I didn't want it to just be, uh, an outsider finger wagging account about Greek life.
[00:27:09] Almost everyone in my life was in Greek life, and I, and I was too, but I wanted it to be an insider's guide to like, okay, well what is it actually like in these things? I think so many people in my generation in fraternities have lost, almost everyone I know has lost a friend or watched a friend sort of go off the, the path they were on because of this sort of pharmaceutical crisis and Greek life.
[00:27:33] so I think people were, if anything, wanted some light shined on it.
[00:27:38] Emy Digrappa: I'm really always interested and curious about, how people drug other people in bars. I mean, yeah, it seems to be pretty prevalent. I mean, it's not, you know.
[00:27:49] Max Marshall: so, yeah. You know, the whole day rate phenomenon on college campuses and in, you know, the world at large is, is absolutely, if anything, it's probably an under-reported phenomenon because a lot of the time it, you know, it doesn't end up, in the news or it doesn't even end up in the arrest reports.
[00:28:05] 'cause people will just, you know, uh. go home the next day and, and you know, I, I know so many stories like that. something that fascinated me about Xanax dropping on college campuses. Mm-hmm. Was the amount a guys would do it to each other. So like in that sense it wasn't explicitly sexual, it was just sort of a prank.
[00:28:27] People called it, 'cause like a quarter bar of Xanax is called a QB by some guys 'cause Q Quarter bar. And so, you know, the football play QB sneak, it was a thing people would qb sneak each other and they would just drop a quarter bar of Xanax into, you know, your friend's Keystone light and next thing you know he feels like he had five keystone lights or you know, or more.
[00:28:46] And. and that was something people would do almost like a, you know, uh, like the Merry Pranksters and Tom Wolfs electric Kool-Aid acid tests, like spiking the punch almost kind of idea. But then they would also actually spike the punch with Xanax. and I. It was, they wouldn't tell sorority girls who were there, so they would drink and they would get blacked out.
[00:29:07] But what was fascinating is the guys would drink the punch too, so they would black out. And so they, it was this sort of collective blackout they were trying to stir up. And, but yeah, so many of the sorority alumni I spoke to for the book basically said, I knew I would just never drink the punch at a fraternity party for that reason.
[00:29:24] Emy Digrappa: God, and, Even outside of the fraternity. Um, just knowing a few, um, girlfriends of mine who have said, I don't remember going home. I don't remember what happened.
[00:29:39] Max Marshall: Yeah.
[00:29:40] Emy Digrappa: And it's like, okay, I live in Wyoming thinking. Yeah. Oh my God. You know?
[00:29:45] Max Marshall: Definitely, definitely. I think, and, and also, I mean just the, uh.
[00:29:49] The idea of the blackout right, is, is I think, pretty central to this book. And it's, uh, I think in my parents' generation, a lot of people, they still think blackout means passing out, but of course, blacking out means you're sort of a, uh, you're walking around, but the, the recorder light on the camcorder isn't on and you're just like, you don't remember anything.
[00:30:08] for a lot of guys when I was in school. blacking out was the goal. There was like sort of social prestige in like, getting that point of blacking out. You know, it showed just how little you cared or maybe it showed how much you could get away with. and I know that sounds ridiculous. I know like, saying that out loud, it's like, no, no one wants to black out, but like, truly I like, I, I really mean it.
[00:30:29] but also this idea of sort of a collective memory loss, like. In this book, you know, these tragedies would just sort of mount where it would be, you know, students were dying. you know, like at a pretty tragic clip. you know, one of the fraternities that was most involved in the drug ring they had, I.
[00:30:47] two students and one recent alumnus die in like a, you know, six month period. Two of them died the same weekend, and the parties just never stopped. Uh, and the, sometimes the craziest party was the funeral after party, but then like the next weekend you could bet there was gonna be another party. And one of the guys who had been to all these funerals and was, uh.
[00:31:11] Kind of tangent. You know, he knew a lot of the people in the drug ring. He was in this fraternity. he was like, the whole thing was almost like a Xanax blackout. It was like, you know, all right, we're sad. All right, we have our night, and then next day it's like he wasn't even there. and that, yeah, that really, it, it, that kind of haunted me while I was, was writing this.
[00:31:31] It was like trying to commit to memory something that people had really tried very hard to forget.
[00:31:36] Emy Digrappa: Gosh, max. That makes me even more sad because it just makes me, um, see how these people, whether they realize it or not, right now, they are like losing their soul. They're giving up a piece of themself that they will never have again.
[00:31:55] Max Marshall: yeah, I mean, I think yeah, losing those memories, definitely. But I do think on the. there, I, I did talk to so many guys who did, you know, sort of claw their way out of this and find, you know, it, it's not, uh, I'm not a, I'm not a total fatalist about this stuff. I think, you know, Xanax is, it's one of the two drugs that's so addictive you can die from withdrawals.
[00:32:18] and that's what we're up against. But at the same time, you know, like I talked to plenty of guys who did find a way. To sort of step out of that, uh, that hurricane and, and, and figure out what they wanted their lives to be. and, yeah, I don't, I don't, I do. One thing that's interesting is, you know, when I started reporting this book, I was, I.
[00:32:39] You know, I think the first time I looked up Xanax bus fraternity, I was maybe 24, and this book came out when I was 30. And so even in that time, I really went from seeing these guys as kind of my peers. I. To when you're 30 looking at a college student, you realize just how young a college student is, you know?
[00:33:01] Mm-hmm. They still have some like baby fat in their cheeks and like some, some hope in their eyes and like, and, and I, and I, it just, it's not to absolve them at all, but I think it is to, to say that It's not too late for anyone who loses their way when they're 18. It's not too late to, to figure something out.
[00:33:20] I think. I mean obviously there's,
[00:33:22] Emy Digrappa: I agree. I have kids. I.
[00:33:29] So tell me about your next book, 'cause that sounds pretty awesome as well.
[00:33:34] Max Marshall: Yeah, so I mean, in, in it's about, uh, electronic dance music and DJs. and it's a, in that sense, a pretty similar world. You know, it's like the kind of crazy party world of right raves and raves and festivals, but this is a much more first person book.
[00:33:49] Um, I was inspired by all these books of participatory journalism where journalists sort of set out to see if they can do a career. And so Harper Collins is sending me out basically to learn how to dj and so I'm starting by playing Bar Mitzvahs and weddings. But at the peak I'm hoping to, you know, travel Europe and sort of play clubs and you know, I've already been playing clubs around, around Austin.
[00:34:13] And yeah, it's sort of a, a way to immerse readers in the world of electronic dance music, which I think. No one is, I think a lot of people don't realize just how massive it's gotten. Las Vegas makes more money from DJs than they do from gambling now. it's, it's truly like, you know, in some sense is the dominant form of, uh, entertainment in the world, like live entertainment.
[00:34:35] But, uh, it's also something that everyone sort of secretly thinks is easy, that all you gotta do is push a button and, you know, and so I'm sort of going out to test, test just how easy or hard it is.
[00:34:46] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh, that's so interesting. 'cause I know, um, my son loves to make his own music and he's a sound engineer and Oh, nice.
[00:34:54] Yeah. And it is a big deal. Yeah. And I never knew how big of a deal it is until, you know, my son got involved in all of it and then,
[00:35:03] Max Marshall: is he dj?
[00:35:05] Emy Digrappa: No, but I, he's talked about it.
[00:35:09] Max Marshall: Nice.
[00:35:09] Emy Digrappa: Yeah. So that's, I He might call you, I don't know.
[00:35:13] Max Marshall: Yeah, yeah. I would love to talk to him. Sure. Yeah.
[00:35:16] Emy Digrappa: But, yeah, I just never realized, well, I think when I was going to school, uh, at Cal State Long Beach in California.
[00:35:23] Max Marshall: Okay.
[00:35:24] Emy Digrappa: A whole big thing. It was, it wasn't live bands, it was DJs, but it was like these underground clubs.
[00:35:31] Max Marshall: Yeah. And that, and that's what I fell in love with first, was sort of underground dance music. Well, actually no, that's a lie. When I was in high school, I was going to see a vichi and stuff, but then I, I moved to New York and kind of fell in love with, you know, more underground house and techno.
[00:35:45] But it's all, you know, the, even the distinction between underground and commercial is so blurred now where you'll have. You know, for instance, like Boiler Room was this YouTube channel that would play a lot of like very cool DJs from New York and London, but recently, like Rebecca Black who did, uh, that big YouTube hit Friday.
[00:36:05] Like she, you know, it's, it's like pop music and underground dance music are completely incestuous, for lack of a better word at this point. It's, it's, it's all these different like bubbles that overlap and it's, it's a very crazy world and I think, uh. And in one way it feels very different than the first book, but in another, it's like, I think, uh, there are these kind of party cultures that, you know, maybe good intellectual people, scare quotes, like don't take seriously or they won't sort of dismiss easily, but actually, uh, are fueling a lot of American culture.
[00:36:46] And actually, Might have a lot to say about the way we live now, if you're willing to sort of, uh, enter the party and deal with the strobe light and the hangover and the come down. and so yeah, throwing yourself into these sort of party situations, you can learn a lot. I think,
[00:37:02] Emy Digrappa: you know, that, that's so interesting.
[00:37:05] Um, and of course belonging to, you know, a big group of girls who just wanted to go out. We just wanted to go out and dance. Okay. We weren't about the drinking. We just wanna go out and dance and definitely dress up and, Have someone drive us there. You know, if we did drink and you know, but it was just about the party.
[00:37:26] It was just about,
[00:37:28] Max Marshall: yeah.
[00:37:28] Emy Digrappa: You know, ducking out and just having fun, you know?
[00:37:32] Max Marshall: Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's about as much fun as you can have. Like a great night of dancing I do think is, is. Maybe my favorite thing. and that's, and what's fascinating about the DJ world is in some ways it's this like total Barnum and Bailey sort of smoke and mirror circus where I.
[00:37:48] You know, some people aren't even, you know, they really do just press play and then jump around up there. But then at the same time, like a great DJ set at its best is like, can be kind of life changing. Honestly, not to be corny, but like it really can. and so, yeah, I think even that tension between like, everyone thinks they could do it, but the people who do it best are, you know, basically treated like deities.
[00:38:08] I think that's, that's interesting.
[00:38:10] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh. do you have, um, a club or clubs in, um, Las Vegas that, that I should visit? I'm so interested that Oh, that's interesting. I
[00:38:19] Max Marshall: was, I was actually interviewing a guy who plays, uh, live Beach, uh, last week and hopefully I'm gonna go out there and watch him play.
[00:38:26] Okay. Um, yeah, I mean, there's a bunch, there's like, there's all the Beast clubs like Encore and, uh, font and Blue, and. Um, and then there's the, you know, at night there's like, uh, tons of haw on and there's a bunch, but, uh,
[00:38:40] Emy Digrappa: I check it out. I didn't, I, yeah, yeah. It's fun.
[00:38:43] Max Marshall: I mean, it's, it's, it's a crazy that all that money comes from bottle service.
[00:38:47] 'cause you know, you can buy, somebody will spend a hundred thousand dollars on a table with some sparklers and you know, some gray goose. And so it's, uh, that's a pretty good profit margin.
[00:38:57] Emy Digrappa: Oh my God, yes. Oh, when you finish the book, you gotta get in touch with me and um, we'll do another interview. 'cause I wanna Yeah, I would love
[00:39:04] Max Marshall: that.
[00:39:04] That'd be a lot of fun.
[00:39:05] Emy Digrappa: Um, yeah, that'd be so much fun. Well, it has been so great talking to you. I need to know all the places that people can find you. Um, I'll put it in your description, when I launched the podcast. But also if you have any special places that, um, people can find you and talk to you, that'd be great.
[00:39:25] Max Marshall: So, yeah, I mean, my DJ name is no socials because I don't have any, uh, social media, but I do, uh, you can find my website is max marshall.com and my email's on there and anyone who, whoever wants to reach out, uh, can shoot me an email.
[00:39:41] Emy Digrappa: Very cool. All right, max, it has been so fun talking to you.
[00:39:45] Max Marshall: I really enjoyed it, Emy.
[00:39:46] Thank you so much.
[00:39:47] Emy Digrappa: Yeah, I learned a lot.
[00:39:48] Max Marshall: Yeah, me too, honestly. But thank you. Have a good one.