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Work like you’re not a parent.
Parent like you don’t work.
What if that whole system is wrong?
This is Full Stack Moms, and we are Mallory Lee and Shannon Curran, two working moms navigating tech careers, parenting, and everything in between. We talk about why the traditional rules of work don’t fit modern parents and how women in tech are doing things differently. Through honest conversations and behind-the-scenes stories, this show explores careers, caregiving, ambition, and the messy reality of having it all, just not all at once.
Connect with Mallory: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallorylee/
Connect with Shannon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannon-sweeny-curran/
Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com
[00:00:00] Barbara Nicholas: Obviously in a leadership position you have to think about the economic impact. Sometimes it's really hard when key- Yeah ... employees are gonna be gone for a long time, but you figure it out. Like, that is the responsibility, that is the job of anyone in a leadership position, whether you're, you know, C-suite, VP, directors, whatever, manager.
[00:00:14] Like, push for the policies. Everything is figure-out-able.
[00:00:20] Mallory Lee: This is Full Stack Moms.
[00:00:22] Shannon Curran: This is not a parenting podcast, nor a business podcast, but a place where we talk building careers in tech, raising kids at home, and making it work in public.
[00:00:31] So Barbara, the way that we start is we ask folks, I don't know if you've lis- listened to other episodes, but we ask folks about how many kids do you have, and what does your home structure look like, and then what is your job?
[00:00:41] Just to give people some context.
[00:00:43] Barbara Nicholas: I have two daughters. Uh, one is 22 and one is 14. She's going to be entering high school. Uh, my home structure in terms of how we make all that work is my husband and I both fortunately work remote. Before COVID, it was hybrid, so he was, you know, in the office three days a week, away t- you know, at home two days a week, and we made that work when the girls were younger.
[00:01:05] Um, and I worked in office at that time. But ever since COVID, he's been 100% remote ever since. They kind of, like, gave you a choice of, like, do you want to permanently stay home when they started some of the return to work stuff, and he chose that, and we're incredibly fortunate for it because it gives us a lot of flexibility.
[00:01:19] I have always had some version of hybrid or remote, but lots of travel at different periods of my career, and that's, you know, you figure it out. In terms of my role, I'm CEO at Polly, you know, B2B SaaS, you know, software tool. I think if anyone has Slack, you know our little parrot- Yes ... that, like, sits, that sits in the corner, right?
[00:01:37] So I don't, I don't e- know if it needs much of an introduction, but we are your participation infrastructure, is how I like to think about it. We do polls, surveys, fun moments inside Slack, Teams, Zoom, and we're making the workplace more engaging. Where we've moved over the past year is that we're really trying to be, you know, the, the infrastructure layer for participation in, like, a remote and hybrid workplace, right?
[00:02:00] So anything from Q and As, suggestion boxes, hosting your events, adding in quizzes, you know, all of these modalities of, like, delivering messaging and, you know, the push and pull of, of communication between, um, employers and their employees. We're trying to do that in a way that people like and makes it suck a little less.
[00:02:19] Shannon Curran: Perfect tagline. Make remote work a little more connected and suck a little less. I love it. Yeah. So Barbara, when we originally talked, I was, like, pretty blown away by your story in the sense of we talk about full stack moms, and you've been a mom your whole career, really. And I would love to hear the story of your first daughter and how you navigated, uh, building your career alongside mothering her, and then your choice to expand your family, um, while you were continuing to grow your career.
[00:02:47] It's an amazing story. I'm really excited for you to tell it.
[00:02:49] Barbara Nicholas: You know, my story I think is like a lot of women, um, that come from backgrounds that I come from and, and maybe some different backgrounds, right? So I grew up very low income in the US in Phoenix, Arizona. A mom that was kind of at home, sometimes worked part-time.
[00:03:03] my father's a welder, um, and I became a mom really young. I was 18 when I had my daughter. And, you know, so I've always known navigating my work life and just my life, um, truly as an adult, as, as also being a mom and, and the prioritization of that. And so, you know, very early career, uh, candidly was just, you know, was just staying above water, right?
[00:03:28] And getting my first, like, big girl job, right? I'll skip all the serving jobs and the double shifts and the weekends and all those things, like, to get to where I was. But, you know, when I got my first, you know, kind of corporate job, it was in convenience stores, supply chain and logistics. I worked, um, in the front office of a warehousing and manufacturing facility and was doing, like, operations and, you know, different things, and was helping them, you know, start, start up that part of their business in Arizona.
[00:03:51] And I loved it, and I felt super proud. You know, I had my first cubicle. One of the things that was really cool, though, at that time about that role was that I-- it's funny that I thought it was as cool as it was, is I worked four 10s, and so I had three days off a week. Um, but those four 10s turned into four 12s or four 15s.
[00:04:06] Ugh. I know. You know, you know, you know what I mean. Um, and I had childcare. My daughter was a toddler at the time, and it was hard. Uh, at the end of the day, of just juggling it all and having policies that were in place of, like, you know, like late policies, right? Where at that time, if you were late more than three times in a rolling day period, it was a fireable offense.
[00:04:27] I think about that now, and I shudder for, like, a mom-- um, like myself as that young mom of, like, what happens in the morning where the kid just isn't with it, right? It was definitely, um, an environment where it wasn't suited to the realities of parenting. I was still working there when I chose to have my second daughter, and I took time off.
[00:04:49] Uh, we all know how it works in the US. It was as bad as back then as it is now in terms of figuring f- out the mix of I'm gonna save all my PTO, I'm gonna use every drop of FMLA I can, you know, all of these things to, to eke out, you know, my, my 12 weeks off. I had done all the, the planning with them, uh, about the fact that I would be returning to work, when I'd be returning.
[00:05:12] And at that time, and you know, this, this also ages me a little bit, uh, is the laws had just changed that you had to have a space that was not a bathroom for, um, pumping and breastfeeding. Like, that was the year that it had changed, and I was pumped. I was like, "Okay, cool. I'm gonna figure this out. I'm gonna be able to break at work now," right?
[00:05:30] And I came back and they had not found a place, and they were asking me to use the bathroom and, um, have the lock on the bathroom door, and that was supposed to be sufficient. And, you know, all of my personal challenges with pumping combined with the anxiety of coming back to work, like, I was not, I was not blessed by the pumping gods that that was an easy experience for me at all.
[00:05:54] Um, it was incredibly difficult. Oh, what a nightmare it is. I already struggled with it functionally and, you know, I went back and I was gonna try and make it work because economically I needed to... I, I wanted to make it work. I had also advanced my career with them. I'd been with them for over five years.
[00:06:08] You know, but I'm sitting in a bathroom and someone is, like, knocking on the door and I am just like n- it's, like, not working. I'm stressed. I'm like, you know, and I'm, like, in tears, right? And it's, um, it wasn't worth it, and I ultimately gave my notice. And, you know, also having a strong partner that was just like, "We'll figure it out."
[00:06:23] Like, you know, I, I shouldn't have to make choices about how I feed my child based on, like, my workplace not getting with it. The biggest career lesson in, in all of that was, you know, I remember deeply how it felt. I remember feeling like I was Failing as a mother because I then had low supply, and then I started supplementing and, you know, and none of that is wrong, but I felt it, and it was not a choice that I'd made for myself.
[00:06:51] I felt like my agency was taken away in being able to make these choices, and I just, you know, it, um, I very much was, you know, never again in my mindset, right? Of feeling like I'm going to partner with an organization that doesn't also have my best interests in mind, that also helped me be good at my job, right?
[00:07:09] And I was not going to do my best work if I am incredibly uncomfortable because I'm a- unable to successfully pump in the workplace for the next year. I think that's really formed all of my next steps because I quit, and then we moved to Colorado. Like, it gave me also agency and freedom to be like, "Okay, well, I'm not anchored to this organization anymore," that I had saw myself with this trajectory.
[00:07:31] I really did back then. I was like, okay, I was... I, I had like drank the Kool-Aid, honestly. Like, it was, like, a lot of their stuff was really great. You know, they, they did this big company, we're a family thing, and they would have like Santa come at Christmas for the kids. Like, all these things, right? I saw the path and like was in the development and all of that stuff, and it was like, F it, essentially.
[00:07:50] Like, this does not actually work and you're not actually, like, you're not mother-forward. This way of being, you know, family-forward in your values as an organization, but women in the workforce was not something that you were figuring out. So it's framed all of the choices I made after, all the jobs I accepted after, the conversations I had in any, every interview process after of, you know, being a lot more bold and saying like, "Okay, you know, what truly are your policies?
[00:08:15] How are those in practice? I do have a small child." You know, when I came to Colorado, I started working for, um, kind of a high-end restaurant group that was taking historic buildings and converting them into individualized concepts. And a big part of that conversation that I had with them in the process of joining them was like, "Okay, I have a toddler.
[00:08:32] I won't be in to work before this time ever. I won't stay after this time ever. How does that work for you?" And I just felt much more empowered to do it because I had already quit something I wanted previously. Like, I wanted that with that company. I just couldn't make it work.
[00:08:47] Mallory Lee: I think being honest about that upfront is just so incredibly helpful.
[00:08:51] And I know some people get nervous about it because You know, maybe they really need that job or really want that job. But if you're not upfront and then it's a surprise later and then it doesn't work later, maybe the whole thing falls apart anyway. And so I think being very clear with what you need as early as you can is, is really helpful.
[00:09:13] Even though I know sometimes it's not that easy for everybody, I think that it's always been really helpful for me when I talk about flexibility that I want for my family.
[00:09:21] Barbara Nicholas: It's interesting when I talk in these spaces, right? 'Cause I come from one demographic and I lived so much of my life in, and I started my life in my work and mothering in, in that exact space, right?
[00:09:33] Of, I, I think it's somewhere like 40% of the women in the workspace are also, like, the sole income providers in their home structure, right? And so, like, we don't all have those same opportunities. My mother didn't have those same opportunities. My grandmother didn't have those same opportunities to say, like, "Hey, this is what I need and this is how it works for my life."
[00:09:52] And so what I, you know, hope for for myself is I con- I continue to do that. And I think of my mother, and I think of my grandmother, and I think of the women that I watched in my community have to make the choices that they had to make. And then I look at my daughters and I hope that they're even more bold about it, because I just...
[00:10:07] It's, um, such a shame that women are such a huge part of this economy, and we have not kept up or kept pace with, like, making the workspace, like, foundations actually function for the reality of being a working mother. And, and I say, you know, working parents, yes, men are absolutely impacted by, like, all the policies that, that are put out, and women are impacted as well.
[00:10:30] But I recognize how disconnected some of the advice you can give from executive level is about like, oh, you know, just, just don't take that job. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you just have to take the job and the shitty schedule, and you're gonna figure it out because moms figure it out. Yep. Yeah. And this is
[00:10:47] Shannon Curran: why I think we feel so strongly, I can only speak for myself, but I think Mallory does too, about having these conversations and using our privilege to force companies to think about these things, right?
[00:10:58] And I was saying the other day, um, so I work for myself and I work fully remotely, and I am around for my kids. And I make, you know, more money than I ever did, right? Like, that's the other thing that I think is really important for me to remember that, like, it doesn't get better than what I have. It just doesn't.
[00:11:19] And I had this thought the other day when I was stressed, I was like, "Do I need another client? Like, how is my company gonna grow?" Like, all this. I'm like, are you kidding me? You know, like, this is truly so Because I've been very bullish about the choices I've made, I, I ... It's important for me to continue to be loud about the fact that more people should have access to make these choices, right?
[00:11:38] Like, there's ... I'm still providing a ton of economic, uh, value. You know what I mean? Like, there's no, there's no question there. But I think there is ... It is really important to continue to talk about how can we make the ... Margaret said this on an episode that we, that just came out recently. It's, you know, she wanted to be a working mom because she really wanted to work, right?
[00:11:58] But it's just a shame if anyone feels like they can't or they have to. Like, we shouldn't ... Like, we wanna create a system where people don't feel like they have to, to be able to ... Just same thing for you. Like, you wanted to be able to breastfeed your, your daughter, so you should've been able to, right? Like, if you're not saying there's anything wrong with formula feeding, it's like, but you didn't wanna do that, so, like, you should have felt supported.
[00:12:20] We all come from mothers, as a reminder. Like, the ... I saw this thing the other day that was like, "The only people in the workforce are mothers and children of mothers." Like, that's how this works. You know, let's make it a little easier. Like, if we could make it just a little bit easier.
[00:12:35] Barbara Nicholas: I personally... I didn't talk about it with my daughters, right?
[00:12:37] So now I have a, you know, I have a 22-year-old daughter. She's not thinking about children anytime soon. Actually, both of them are like, "I don't know about kids." You raise young women with agency and choice and, you know, when you're young, they're like, "Whoa, that's a wild choice to, to have that level of responsibility," right?
[00:12:50] But even when I talk about, you know, my, my choices around motherhood and my career and what I've wanted and, and how I've, I've built my life and all of these things, you know, one of the things I share with my daughters a lot is that motherhood really is... Like, while, while it's this, like, deeply meaningful thing and you're going to do it for a number of reasons, right, that are very individualized, it is truly one of, like, just the biggest economic bets that you're gonna take on, like, your life as a woman as to how that pans out, right?
[00:13:21] Um, you are now even more likely to experience pay gaps, promotion gaps, like, all of these things. And not to say that that's a reason not to have children, but I think we just need to be more eyes wide open about what that actually looks like and how it impacts us. And, you know, when I think about it from now I get the opportunity and have for a number of years to be setting policies inside organizations, like, we need to be setting policies that helps to reduce or eliminate those gaps so it's not a part of the equation.
[00:13:53] Like, I would be lying if I didn't say there was part of me that questioned having my second child at that particular time in my career 'cause I had been working so hard to have more opportunities. I knew I wanted this. I always knew I wanted this for myself. Like, I was a very young girl, you know, riding my bike to the libraries before the internet.
[00:14:13] I just always pictured, like, this life. And to minimize how young women can think about what their life might look like if they choose to be mothers is such a shame. But we also can't ignore the fact that it does in some ways because of the economic impacts of it. Like, if I envision my life living big and traveling and doing all these things, well, how do you afford that, right?
[00:14:37] At the end of the day, like, how do you economically make all of this happen for both your children and the way you wanna raise them, and also what you want for yourself?
[00:14:44] Mallory Lee: I mean, you went and got everything that you wanted So I just think that that is, that's so badass. I am curious, you know, you, you mentioned that you're in a place now where you can set some policies to try to counteract these trends.
[00:15:00] What does that look like at Polly? What are you doing about that?
[00:15:03] Barbara Nicholas: We're still kind of startup mode and a smaller team, but even with that and the reality of the impacts if you have multiple people out on leave is, is challenging to navigate. You know, we offer 16 weeks paid leave for both partners for them to use over the course of the first year.
[00:15:18] I, I don't think you can successfully have family leave without being very equitable for their partners, whether, you know, in both situations, right? Shirin says that all the time. Yeah. Preach. Yeah. I mean, I get to do what I do because I also have a really strong partner at home, and they have also deserved to experience fatherhood and, you know, bond with their child, all of those warm and fuzzy things as well.
[00:15:47] But there is just the reality, again, I go back to, like, the economic impact of it... If I were to have a child now, like, how incredible would it be to take you know, a month off together or six weeks off together, and then my husband maybe goes back and then I, you know, am home, and then he trades off, and my child's not in childcare for the first eight to nine months of their life.
[00:16:11] Like, that would be beautiful. I didn't have that, and I want everyone else to have that. And so when I think about, you know, what's possible, that's how, you know, the human lens. Obviously, in a leadership position you have to think about the economic impact. Sometimes it's really hard when key- Yeah
[00:16:25] employees are gonna be gone for a long time. But you figure it out. Like, that is the responsibility, that is the job of anyone in a leadership position, whether you're, you know, C-suite, VP, directors, whatever, manager. Like, push for the policies. Everything is figureoutable. And it's true. We also have generous policies around other things in life.
[00:16:41] Like, um, we have a couple of team members that are, um, going to Hajj this year, which is, like, a pilgrimage journey. You know, real- all of these, like, once in a lifetime, like, moments in someone's life. Like, we're employing humans and, you know, all of these moments are once in a lifetime and we support s- should support people through them.
[00:17:00] You know, the other piece is that we offer really great benefits, and it's expensive, and we pay 95% for employer, employee and family. Wow. And I never have to change that because I think, you know, Shannon, you mentioned it when we were first getting on here of, like, you know, you have a, a really great health benefit situation.
[00:17:17] We felt trapped as a fam- family sometimes in the loop of which one of us gets to take big swings at any given time in our career because who has the best health insurance, right? And my partner has worked at, uh, in a corporate entity that had really, really great healthcare, and I didn't have to worry about providing that for my family.
[00:17:36] And so I could take big swings. I could try the startup. I could go to the small business that I didn't know how it was gonna pan out and not worry about how I was gonna provide, um, healthcare for my children. So those are two of, you know, the top things for me that I think are no-brainers. And, you know, once you budget it in, it's budgeted in, right?
[00:17:54] I, I think there's this really unfortunate trend that you're starting to see pop up. And I hope it's not a trend. I actually need to not put that into the universe.
[00:18:02] Shannon Curran: Yeah, I always joke too, behind every successful entrepreneur is a spouse with excellent healthcare. That is my, like, I only felt like I could be brave enough to go out on my own 'cause, you know, my, uh, my healthcare from the startup wasn't really h- living up to the union package, that's for sure.
[00:18:17] Um, so what's happening in the world right now is specifically Deloitte, um, has pulled back a lot of their parental leave policies, as well as Zoom earlier in the year. And you're also seeing, what was the most recent one? There was also a massive return-to-work, um, mandate happening with some of these larger corporations that feels a little like, we used to call it quiet quitting.
[00:18:42] This feels like quiet firing, um, of families, right? Like of parents, of working moms are the ones that are impacted the most. And it feels cowardly to me, especially from a company at the size of Deloitte, who ... The management consulting firms are struggling right now. I have lots of opinions about that, that I won't share here.
[00:19:02] Um, but I, they're certainly, um, not seeing the revenue that they historically had seen. And it feels very insidious that one of the first things to go is the support of working families, right? Which is, you know, actually what we should do is just remove time that you have with your children. That's really what's gonna help us hit, like, reach the bottom line, right?
[00:19:25] It's gross. You know? It really is. It's like, it's ... And it's really disappointing. One of those things that we fought so hard for is now, it just, it feels very replaceable. Which is terrible. Really terrible. If Polly can do it, what are you guys, series A? Like- Yeah ... I think they can do it.
[00:19:43] Barbara Nicholas: I think the, the notion of disappointing is, like, what I resonate with most, right?
[00:19:47] Like, I, I do, I do feel that in not just this area of existence right now as a woman and a mother in, in our climate. I don't know what their earnings postings were. I don't know what conversations they would have when it came out to these decisions. And I also recognize, like, at the end of the day, Deloitte, I think, had something like 24 weeks leave.
[00:20:07] Incredible, right? It was a reason to attract talent, and you attract smart, capable women that saw an opportunity to grow themselves and their families within your organization, which is a benefit to your organization. And I think it's just really shortsighted to look at the short-term economic gain of reducing leave or reducing some sort of policy versus the long-term impact of losing talent if we don't even wanna be warm and fuzzy about it, right?
[00:20:35] Like, what is that long-term drag on your business to lose top talent? Because, you know, women that have choice will make a different choice, and I hope that they see that, right? I hope that anyone who's making these decisions see that they're not going to be an employer of choice when it comes to women that are in these eras of their lives.
[00:20:51] Like, this is incredibly important when you also then couple it with what's just happening, especially in the US, right? Like, I, I talk very US-centric because that's my lived experience of what's also happening with, like, the childcare cost crisis. So now you're having people come back to work sooner where it's astronomically expensive to put children into, into care, and you're doing return to work mandates at the same time, so the level and extension of that care...
[00:21:15] Like, when I was putting my children into childcare and I was in the office, like, that was not 9:00 to 5:00 for them. That was, like, 6:30 AM to 6:00 PM for them.
[00:21:24] Mallory Lee: I do think it's really just a way of forcing some people to opt out. Yep. And that's the unfortunate part because, you know, kind of what you were saying, Barbara, the people who will choose to opt out are the top performers who are confident that they can go find something better And so they might just be looking at the number of full-time employees and trying to really cut it back.
[00:21:48] But which employees are you losing? You know, you're, you're losing the ones that have the most choice available to them to, you know, freely go find somewhere else to work. And it might not even be that they find a different employer with 24 weeks of leave. It's just that they're gonna find an employer that's more supportive in whatever way they're capable of being supportive.
[00:22:10] And so it, it is really sad. And I don't know anyone personally that's been impacted by this at Deloitte, but, you know, I've just like scrolled LinkedIn and, and looked at things a little bit, and the sentiment's not good. You know? Like, not a good look for, for Deloitte. And like you said, I don't think that we wanna call this a trend.
[00:22:30] I think that hopefully it's a blip on the radar. But as a business owner, I think it's, it's gotta be very difficult either way to decide how you make that work financially. And when you start to see some tough choices, you know, how you choose to step up and handle that.
[00:22:48] Barbara Nicholas: You're deciding on the level of profitability that you're projecting.
[00:22:50] And again, like I said, I've not, I've not looked at their books. I don't know what they were ch- projecting and, and what different story this tells, 'cause I understand and recognize the complicated nature of saying... You know, making choices that are also hard calls sometimes to say, well, this is how you stabilize a business and you make sure that everybody can stay employed and, and have a level of benefits.
[00:23:10] But that's much more... Like, that is much more typical in, like, the startup world or these places, right? Where we're really having to figure these things out of like, what's, what's the best of, of two challenging choices. You know, I like to hope that the folks that were in the room that were making that decision were also trying to make employee-forward decisions of retaining other benefits or a reduction, you know, reducing, you know, the potential of a layoff or those types of things.
[00:23:36] But like you said, Mallory, it's like incredibly telling that this was the first place that we went to, to carve out, um, additional budget, including, you know, I, I saw some, and I, I, I don't wanna say which one it was. I don't, I don't wanna misspeak, but we're like also rolling back like coverage for IVF benefits.
[00:23:51] That's like such a slap in the face to like these young women that have bet their consulting careers to like go hard. I have known women that part of their decisions around, um, employers of choice has been the opportunity to have, um, fertility treatments, you know, egg banking, IVF services. Because they are picturing having their, their family later in life because they're building their careers.
[00:24:12] And so it feels a little bit like, hey, we're, we're pulling the rug out from under you of like, "Hey, you could have it all," right? Um, you know, i- if, if you come and work for these big, big companies, um, and, and we're dialing that back, and it's, uh, it's really unfortunate.
[00:24:26] Mallory Lee: It does make you wonder what the other options on the table are.
[00:24:30] Like, is it a layoff because now we have AI and we don't need as many people? Is it, you know... It's not the remote work. I mean, we're seeing the opposite of people needing to get back into the office. But man, real estate's expensive. You know? Like, do you really need 25 offices? Maybe you only need 20. Stuff like that I think is very interesting.
[00:24:54] And if I put myself in maybe a expecting mom's shoes that works at Deloitte, I do ask myself, like, okay, would I rather have a little bit shorter leave, or would I rather not have a job at all? And it is really tough, right? I think that there are probably some people who would say, you know, "Oh, well, at least it's saving jobs."
[00:25:17] And I see that part of it, but it just, it makes you wonder, like, what else was on that chopping block that was considered.
[00:25:24] Shannon Curran: Yeah, I don't think I'm as, uh, empathetic. It's like, I think there's... Like, these are, like, tens of millionaires that are running companies like this, right? Like, I think there's consultants, management consultants specifically are, are still some of the highest paid folks in, in the workforce, right?
[00:25:42] So I think that there's this discussion around if we're, we're building something bigger than companies, right? We're building like a... You have a lot of influence if you work at companies that are this big. Zoom too, right? Like, huge companies that are setting the standard for what we expect of employers to be able to grow careers.
[00:26:02] Yeah, I don't think my empathy is as high. But I also sit in boardrooms every single week with startups that are making real trade-offs, right? Which is like, Barbara, it's exactly what you're saying. It's like the cost of healthcare for a startup and we're putting all this pressure on these small businesses to make these decisions when the big ones are, have clearly aligned their values to certain things, right?
[00:26:22] And I think that's why, like, I'm willing to be really loud about it publicly is like, get it together. Like, that is not, we're not doing this anymore. Like, we're just not, like, we're not. You were talking earlier, Barbara, about the ability for fathers to actually father, right? And I think there's... You know, I'm in a, you know, heteronormative relationship.
[00:26:41] My husband is very, like, involved in my kids' lives, and he always talks about how special it was that he got multiple months, like exclusively with my fir- with our firstborn to raise him. And it's now I think ha- has created such a wonderful dynamic in our relationship of my kids being like really, really connected to both of their parents, right?
[00:27:02] And I think that's really important, right? So I'm glad we talked about it on this episode actually, Mallory, 'cause then we can get Barbara's take. Yeah. Because I think this- Mm ... is something that's felt really important to talk about, um, is that all we do is talk to working parents, right? And moms that have big jobs.
[00:27:17] Like every, every woman that's been on this show has a big job that is like high-pressure. There's a lot of economics tied to it, and we're trying to all make it work. Like, don't make it harder, world. Yeah. We're trying to provide ac- shareholder value, okay? Like, don't make it harder.
[00:27:36] Barbara Nicholas: Yeah, I mean, the whole bit, right, of like, stop, stop pulling up the ladder behind you, right?
[00:27:42] I, I feel like just a lot of that is happening and not, and not just when it comes to the benefits and, and policies around parenting and leave and all this stuff. I mean, just, it, it just feels like a lot of that is happening broadly, right, of this, this ge- my generation. Like I'm, I'm technically a millennial.
[00:28:01] I have hope that we're not the ones that continue to pull those ladders up behind us, right? And that that tide will change because I think of it in that way. Like I've experienced, you know, Shannon, you mentioned how beautiful it was to see that your, your partner could, um, have that time to, to be a father and connect with your children and the dynamic that, that that builds in your family.
[00:28:20] I've experienced both sides of that coin. Mm-hmm. And I think about who I was back when we had our first daughter. So, you know, my husband and I were, we were, we were children in our tiny little apartment and, um, I went to the hospital and I had my daughter, Isra. She's wonderful. And I came home, and then that next day he went to work.
[00:28:39] Like, there wasn't, there wasn't a, a, a choice in any of that, and that's just where we were because we were both- You know, I was working restaurant jobs and he was like his first like IT job, you know what I mean? And he's now an engineer and very successful in his own right. And he didn't get that. And I also didn't get that 'cause as soon as I was physically able, I was back to working in restaurants like three weeks after I had my child to make things happen.
[00:29:01] And you do what you need to do. So, you know, I, I recognize that in this corporate world, we're not living in any of those extremes, but there are many corporate entities that also are living in those extremes. Like when I talk about the, the logistics and supply chain facility that I worked in, like yeah, I worked in the office, but we had how many hundreds of employees that were in the warehouse doing all of these things, and I saw women coming back to work, you know, after six weeks working a very physical job, right?
[00:29:28] So we can do better, and it just depends on where we put our profits. But then on the other side of that, when we had Penelope, who's now 14, you know, and we were in this other station in life, you know, I took my 12 weeks off. He took his 12 weeks off. He got to see his child and be a part of it. He got to experience helping our older daughter become a big sister.
[00:29:48] You know, all of those things, and it's, it's such a shame people at the top of these organizations, and it is still very disparate. It's still-- You know, we haven't broke the 30% mark of women in CEO seats, and I, I keep feeling like that's the momentum that, you know, will help change this. We see more of ourselves in leadership.
[00:30:05] But like there's only fathers in leadership, right? Like I would hope that they also want that for the men coming up behind them. Maybe you didn't have that. Maybe that's the generation that you came from, that you were the provider. This was the main thing. You're gonna take that minimal time off, and you're gonna go back to work, and everyone's gonna congratulate you, and you're gonna get a, a pay raise and a promotion.
[00:30:23] I like to think that you would want better and more for the men coming up behind you as well, the same way that I feel like most of us in these positions want better for the women coming up behind us.
[00:30:32] Mallory Lee: Yeah I do think it comes down to that talent pool and the way that that plays out for the business.
[00:30:38] And I think you're a really good example of this, Barbara, because you chose to leave an employer that was not supporting you as a new mom, you know, trying to feed your child in the way that you needed to. And you were a top performer destined to literally become a CEO. And they could have had you as the CEO of that company if they had just gotten their sh*t together.
[00:31:02] But now they don't have Barbara. They've got, you know, somebody else, and they're probably not as well off for it. I just think it's an excellent story about, you know, inspiring people who, who hopefully will have some choice to make the choices that are gonna help support the future that we want for our own kids and our own daughters and our own employees.
[00:31:25] And I just love the, the story of your, you know, bravery to do that. And there's a lot of people just like you that are gonna be the one that gets away, you know, from employers that are not supporting them.
[00:31:38] Barbara Nicholas: Great talent comes from a lot of places, and that's one of the things. Again, I go back to just, like, where I came from and the women I watched.
[00:31:45] My mom didn't have this big career, and not because she didn't want something like that for herself. Like, genuinely she did. And that's just not how it panned out. It wasn't the choices that she had. You know, when your starting line is already Back here. And then you layer in what it was like. You know, I was-- You know, she had my brother when she was young.
[00:32:07] She had me. You know, all these things. And I watched how that impacted her as, as a woman. And now I can look back at it with a full lens. You know, she's, she's no longer, no longer with us. We, we lost her when she was, like, 46. So I think about that. You know, I'm-- I turned 40 this past year. And it's like, whoa, if I felt like I had, you know, six more years on this clock and I hadn't had the opportunities to accomplish the things that I wanted to accomplish as an individual woman, not just as a mom, right?
[00:32:34] That's the big thing with how I am with my girls is I want them to see me as this, like, whole flawed woman that's doing the best things that I can for them, but also for myself because I come from, like, a, a generational legacy of women that just didn't have a lot of choice for a number of factors, economics being a big one in that.
[00:32:53] I think societal norms at different times was a big thing in that. You know, all the way back to my grandmothers. Like, I'm named Barbara Asanashia after both of my grandmothers. My grandmother on my father's side immigrated over from Greece by herself on a boat at, like, 14 years old and figured it out.
[00:33:09] Wow. Um, and is a badass. And she's still with us, and she's what I think about all the time. But, you know, I talk to her now that she's in her 80s, and there's, like, all these stories she tells around how, you know, she didn't have agency. Like, she couldn't go to the bank and do this, or she couldn't do that, but she worked her whole life.
[00:33:26] Like, she worked alongside her husband to build that life. Um, my nana, Barbara, my, you know, my namesake, um, she was a woman who, you know, air quotes, like, had it all in, on-- in New England of, like, the husband and the kids and stuff, and he was mean and not nice, and she was brave and got a divorce when, like, you didn't get divorces.
[00:33:46] But that also meant really challenging economic situations. And I just look at how we think about building all of this, and how do we build for all of these demographics and opportunities? Like, I don't come from an Ivy League background. I didn't have a network. I didn't have a seat at a table. And there are so many talented people that come from everywhere, but these policies impact you being able to find that talent.
[00:34:09] Like, if a woman cannot come into the workplace and feel like they can also pick their kid up from after-school care without, you know, having issues or being late or being able to afford that, the affordability of after-school care or whatever, you're gonna miss out on someone who's, like, really incredible for your organization.
[00:34:25] And so it feels like a no-brainer to me, but that's my lived experience, right? So that's why it feels like it's a no-brainer. But I could, yeah, I could go on for probably, like, five podcast episodes about mothers. We love our children. I think there is a part of both societal norms as well as the deep love that we have for these little tiny humans that we've made that we'll sacrifice a lot, including our careers, to make sure they have everything that they need.
[00:34:49] And I experienced that from the women who brought me up, right? I'm here because of their sacrifices. We shouldn't have to make so many sacrificial choices to build a career. Well said. Love it.
[00:35:00] Shannon Curran: I know you're the best. Ugh. So the, the last segment that we do is we call it our save of the week. So this is something people, process, product that saved you as a working parent this week.
[00:35:12] So we like to share this with our audience. Um, Mallory, do you have one? Do you wanna go first?
[00:35:18] Mallory Lee: Well, today, I joked earlier with Shannon, I'm sponsored by DayQuil. She said
[00:35:26] Shannon Curran: Oh, she looks real good for a sick person. I
[00:35:29] Mallory Lee: know. So maybe DayQuil is my save this week. Yeah, I traveled last week and the weather's been up and down.
[00:35:35] And any time I get on an airplane and the weather is doing this, you know, up and down, I think it's inevitable there's gonna be some germs. So not feeling the best, but the DayQuil is, uh, is working today, so I'll call that my save.
[00:35:50] Barbara Nicholas: I don't know if I have a, a save of the week. Um, I can't think of any- anything in that ve- I have a
[00:35:55] So my 14-year-old is going on the end of the year Costa Rica trip, um- Ooh ... with her school. You know, finishing 8th grade, and so they're gonna go to Costa Rica, and we've traveled a ton. Like, that has been a priority over experiences over, over, um, presence has been our family values. But I'm having real big feelings about her going off without me, which I didn't expect to have, and it feels really strange and weird and all of those things, but teenagers do what teenagers are gonna do, and we're currently locked into a battle around, um, what footwear she would go to Costa Rica.
[00:36:29] 'Cause water shoes are incredibly embarrassing apparently. Like, if you were to wear water shoes, you should probably just not finish the zip line in Costa Rica. It would be social death. I think my save of this week is even though I'm away from home is that, um, I am going to be able to continue the heated debate on shoes remotely, and I will be able to get those delivered in time.
[00:36:51] Likely I'm just gonna end up ordering some Tevas because she refused to pick twice, and get those delivered to my house, and then we will no longer be in conflict over footwear for Costa Rica.
[00:36:59] Mallory Lee: Nice. Yeah, here in the new echelon. So modern conveniences is what it sounds like.
[00:37:05] Shannon Curran: Willa did come home from her second day of daycare with green snot, so I was like, "Well, that's a new, that is, that is a new record."
[00:37:12] Um, but hey, um, we have ... It was really funny to hear my husband say, "I'm gonna go pick up the kids." I was like, "We have kids. Like, we have two of them and they both go to school." And, like, it's been ... Yeah, talk about a blessing, right? Like, there's ... We have our, our dayca- We love our daycare. I talk about this on, like, every episode.
[00:37:30] We're finishing up our second week of both kids full time, and my daughter's doing great. Uh, they're affirming the fact that I think she's a nut. Uh, they're like, "She was on the table. I turned around and she was on the ta-" I'm like, "Yep. Yep, she was. Yeah, that is true." Um, but it's really been crazy to watch, like, my ability to focus on work for a few, like, actual focused hours in the middle of the day and how different I feel, how, like, different I feel with the ability to exercise, like, with the ability to do, like, just
[00:38:02] I don't think I realized how much lo- like how much mental load I was really carrying. Like, I would talk about it a lot, but you don't know until it's gone, right? And I'm still feeling like I get really wonderful focused time with them now when they get home. Like, I can actually, like, spend time with them.
[00:38:15] So daycare, save of the week. Now hopefully every week. Mm-hmm. So grateful.
[00:38:22] Mallory Lee: I'm so happy for you.
[00:38:23] Shannon Curran: Oh, thanks. So happy for you. Yeah, Mallory's been ... She's been on the ride with me on this one. This has been, yeah.
[00:38:28] Mallory Lee: I picked the kids up from afterschool care a little early yesterday, because even though they go to the afterschool care, every single day they beg me to come get them early.
[00:38:37] They're like, "Can we please just come home early?" I'm like, "The whole point of you going to the afterschool care is because I have meetings until, like, 5:30," you know? But yesterday I gave in and I went and got them, and they were playing at the neighbor's house. And it was actually an unfamiliar feeling of being, you know, sitting here at my desk on a call, looking out the front window, trying to see where they were.
[00:38:58] I was like, man, I haven't had to, like, deal with this for quite a while. It really does free your mind. Free mind. Mind-blowing.
[00:39:07] Shannon Curran: Yeah, for sure. Well, Barbara, thank you so much for coming on to talk with us today. Ugh, I loved this episode so much. Um, and if, uh, folks want to follow you or to p- follow Polly, where's the best place?
[00:39:20] I assume it's LinkedIn, but feel free if there's any
[00:39:22] Barbara Nicholas: others. Yeah, yeah. LinkedIn for me, Barbara Nicholas. CEO of Polly, you'll find it. Search bar. Uh, polly.ai if you need some help making, like, your workface- workplace culture a little more fun, a little more engaging. You know, um, I still take demos, so maybe we could hang out.
[00:39:38] Shannon Curran: Oh my God. Ooh.
[00:39:39] Barbara Nicholas: That is so nice.
[00:39:41] Shannon Curran: A woman of the people. A woman of the people. I love it. Um. If
[00:39:45] Mallory Lee: you use the code FULLSTACKMOM, Barbara will personally give you a demo.
[00:39:52] Barbara Nicholas: Put FULLSTACKMOM in the notes of the request. That'll come straight over to me.
[00:39:57] Shannon Curran: I love it. Well, Mallory, you're good. The demo's gonna be full of people asking for advice.
[00:40:01] Well, I do. Like, so what shoes did you choose?
[00:40:05] Barbara Nicholas: Yeah, I ... I mean, hey, new market, right? We're just ... There's a, there's a hotline for mom advice. Oh. I love it. That's awesome.
[00:40:14] Mallory Lee: Well, thank you so much. Wonderful to meet you, wonderful to chat, and hopefully we'll talk again soon.
[00:40:20] Barbara Nicholas: Yeah, thank you both. I love what you're doing.
[00:40:22] Um, I, I'm excited to hear more. Um, yeah, really great time. Thanks for listening to Full Stack Moms.
[00:40:29] Mallory Lee: We'll be back with more episodes that help you see you're not crazy and you're not alone. If we might be your people, please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Mal, I
[00:40:40] Shannon Curran: love
[00:40:41] Mallory Lee: this dress.
[00:40:41] Shannon Curran: You look
[00:40:43] Mallory Lee: fabulous.
[00:40:43] Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. It's freezing here, so it's not the right thing to be wearing, but we're here.
[00:40:49] Shannon Curran: I'm in- We're just here ... I'm in sweatpants, so that's good. Different vibe.