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What if science and ceremony weren’t at odds, but deeply connected?
In this episode, we sit down with Amánda Efthimiou, a global speaker, systems thinker, and founder of INTEGRA, for a conversation that moves from brain science to ancestral wisdom, from personal growth to the future of AI.
Amánda shares her story of navigating anxiety, studying the brain, and discovering the power of presence, ritual, and deep listening. Together, we explore how the old stories we carry about ego, identity, and leadership are unraveling and what might emerge in their place.
This is about slowing down, tuning in, and asking: how do we show up for a world in transition with clarity, courage, and care?
In this episode, we sit down with Amánda Efthimiou, a global speaker, systems thinker, and founder of INTEGRA, for a conversation that moves from brain science to ancestral wisdom, from personal growth to the future of AI.
Amánda shares her story of navigating anxiety, studying the brain, and discovering the power of presence, ritual, and deep listening. Together, we explore how the old stories we carry about ego, identity, and leadership are unraveling and what might emerge in their place.
This is about slowing down, tuning in, and asking: how do we show up for a world in transition with clarity, courage, and care?
- (00:00) - Ritual, feathers & the universality of presence
- (03:00) - Amánda’s multicultural upbringing
- (06:00) - Healing through rituals & plant medicine
- (07:30) - From neuroscience to indigenous wisdom
- (10:00) - How nature guides decision-making
- (12:30) - The role of neuroscience in Amanda’s integration work
- (18:30) - Consciousness beyond the brain
- (20:00) - The sacred return of ritual in business & climate work
- (24:00) - Water rituals, ancestral reverence & universal elements
- (27:00) - On cultural appropriation, creating personal ritual
- (30:00) - Archetypes emerging in a shifting world
- (32:00) - Feminine intelligence & leading in the unknown
- (36:00) - Rituals in tech spaces & contemplative practices
- (40:00) - Embracing chaos, the cyclical feminine in business
- (43:00) - AI, consciousness & intercultural ethics
- (50:00) - Why community is essential in the age of technology
- (55:00) - Amánda’s closing seed: planting courage in uncertain times
Creators and Guests
Host
Host
Rudy De Waele
Rudy is a futurist, regenerative leadership guide, and ecosystem weaver with over two decades of experience at the intersection of technology, consciousness, and systems change. He co-founded Unconditional Men and RegenerateX, and brings deep presence and visionary clarity to the Voices of Emergence podcast.
What is Voices of Emergence?
Voices of Emergence is a podcast about what’s coming alive in a time between worlds. Hosted by Alex and Rudy, we hold mythic, soulful conversations with visionaries, culture-makers, and edge-walkers who are sensing into the future. From regenerative leadership to inner transformation, we explore how personal and collective emergence shape a more beautiful world—one honest, embodied conversation at a time.
These images of people dawning feathers
and putting on things because they are
connecting with a culture because this
is what they're learning and it's so
beautiful for them to have that exposure.
And at the end of the day, we
are all indigenous to some place.
We are not separate from any other person.
Though ritual is universal and even
the sitting around the circle around
a fire, everyone since the beginning
of time has been able to do that.
What I also teach is how we can instill
this curiosity to uncover and create your
own ritual, your own practice of presence.
Everyone has their own
different way of doing things.
Hi, I am Alex.
Welcome to Voices of Emergence,
where inner transformation
meets systemic regeneration.
In each episode, we journey with
courageous thinkers, creators, and
system shifters who are reimagining
leadership, business, and community from
the ground of consciousness and care.
How do we evolve beyond
extractive systems?
And how do we tend the literal
and symbolic soil of lives in
service to earth and one another?
Join us as we reclaim the wisdom of the
body and step into a living story of
emergence, integration and possibility.
I'm joined today by my dear friend and
co-host, Rudy de Waele, admire most
is the way he listens, not just with
his ears, but with his whole being.
He brings people together with
care and clarity, holding space
at the intersection of innovation,
inner work and cultural renewal.
So, hi Rudy.
Hi Alex.
Thank you for this lovely introduction
and, today we welcome Amanda Ft. Miu.
Do I pronounce that correctly, Amanda?
Yes, you did.
Okay.
So Amanda is a keynote speaker,
integration facilitator, and systems
thinker working at the intersection of
health, technology, and consciousness.
As the founder of Integra, she leads
interdisciplinary projects that blend
neuroscience, nature-based intelligence,
and inner development to guide
transformational work with leaders,
startups, and mission-driven teams.
With a background in neuroscience and
years of collaboration with indigenous
communities in the Amazon, Amanda brings
a rare synthesis of scientific rigor,
embodied wisdom, and regenerative insight.
So welcome, Amanda.
Oh, thank you.
The first question I want to ask is like,
when you hear the word emergence, what
images or sensations arise within you?
Emergence feels natural.
So a sensation that is natural in my
body actually, a feeling of an unfolding.
It's almost like the emergence is, a
great mystery that comes up naturally.
that's what comes to me
when I hear that word.
the sensation is actually quite grounding.
If I were to give it a more
embodied characteristic.
That's wonderful.
You know, I am a mix of cultures myself
as a Brazilian Finn, and you are a
mix of cultures as a Brazilian Greek.
So can you tell us more about your story
and how that has affected you and how
do you feel being between places and
cultures Do you long for your cultures
and how do you, integrate all of this?
Oh, thank you for the question.
I also wanna say how much I loved this
introduction to you have to this podcast,
all these words around integrity and
integration or just my love languages.
So I'm excited for the conversation.
a bit about my background.
So I am a third culture
kid, as you can call it.
someone who was raised in New York to
Brazilian and Greek parents, and I've.
Long been, a student of
life from the beginning.
I've been someone who's traveled
extensively from an early age to get
to know different cultures and the way
culture actually affects, all things
that happen in society and culture
and language is part of that culture.
So language is very important to me,
and the words that we use and how we
use them are also very important, across
culture and in different languages.
I've been on a very, interesting
personal development journey that has
led me to what I'm doing currently
for individuals and for companies.
someone who has long been advocating
for and interested in mental health,
I myself have gone through my own
mental health, and healing journey.
from an early age,
I went through a very traditional
medical system of healing my
mental health and mental illness.
I was suffering from
anxiety, as a teenager.
And, what helped me come out of
that was actually plant-based
medicines, psychedelic healing.
And that opened a big door to seeing
the world in a very different way, in
a way to sort of take that autonomy
and control back to my own self, my own
body, my own healing process, and to
do so in a very multidisciplinary way.
So I was exposing myself to many
different modalities of healing with
plant medicines, but also embodied
in healing practices, meditation.
connecting with different, cultures
that have a strong spiritual connection,
and also to nature, to the natural
world as my greatest healing teacher.
And so that gave me a lot of context
and awareness and how I can actually
start conversations with others
to support their healing process.
By no means did I have any answers.
Like, okay, you know, you're
suffering from something here.
Take a psychedelic medicine
and that's gonna fix you.
That is not at all the uncovering
and sort of the exploration I was on.
I was really interested in how
we integrate all the different
modalities for our inner world.
And how we can actually support
ourselves in that process.
So while I was going through my own
healing journey I decided I wanted to
return to university to study what was
actually happening to me when I was
working with these plant-based medicines.
And that's when I did a neuroscience
degree focusing on the effects of
fungi medicine psilocybin together with
psychotherapy for, mental health outcomes.
And I started to understand that
neuroscience and the sciences, we
have some answers, we have some
understanding, but not all of it.
And throughout my career, I've
worked within the VC space with
early stage startups in the nonprofit
sector and always in this area of.
Wellbeing, regeneration and how
we can mix the sciences with the
natural intelligences that we have.
and that kind of really just spun
out of my own personal desire to
understand the human condition a
little bit better and how to bridge
that to supporting others in a more
systemic way in the area of business.
So that's a little bit of fast story.
Very interesting.
journey.
Amanda, thank you for sharing.
So I wonder like what were the, or
perhaps if you want to dig deeper
a little bit in that, like, were
there any cathartic moments or like
moments that really that, were.
You got like really deep insights or
that actually where you decided to
take action, okay, I'm gonna move in
that space, or I'm gonna work in that
space, or move in that direction.
outside of basically your academic
background you went back to study,
which is also an interesting part.
And then also how did nature come
into, that, as an important part
in that, journey and the part
that you designed for yourself.
Can you say a bit more about that?
Absolutely.
So when asked like if there was this
particular moment, a very specific
catharsis, it's funny because my answer
is also a reflection of how I see sort
of the philosophy of these emergent.
Properties of healing and transformation.
It's this slow, natural,
organic unfolding.
Genuine because it was actually an
accumulation of different experiences.
And one day my body, this human
body I have is like, okay, what,
what can I possibly do with all of
these inputs and these insights?
I need to make sense of this for myself.
And that takes a lot of inner
excavation, a bit of the shadow
work, a bit of just talking with
others, sharing the experience.
So you're right.
I went back to university
because I wanted to.
Find a way and a lens to make sense
of something that happened to me.
I also made intentional effort
to, explore different perspectives
of an industry that was emerging,
specifically the psychedelic industry
at the time when I joined this VC firm.
What are the different
avenues for approaching a
singular problem or phenomena?
So I looked at it from a
neuroscientific perspective.
I looked at it from a highly
business transactional perspective.
What does it look like to invest
capital into an infrastructure
for psychedelic care?
What does that ecosystem look like
from a regulatory perspective?
I looked at it from the perspective
of, philanthropy, reciprocity,
nature-based wisdom, and indigenous
traditions by directing this
nonprofit called El Puente Foundation.
Which is supporting, biocultural
conservation and forest regeneration
of indigenous owned territories
in the Amazon basin in Brazil.
And these specific indigenous
communities are stewards of sacred plant
medicines and natural intelligences.
So I, over the years decided,
okay, what do I do about
something, how do I integrate
this profound personal experience?
It's to integrate myself into diverse
systems of knowledge, of care, of,
doing in order to find my own way.
And that's when I decided to immerse
myself in all these areas to then
come up with my own perspective and
way of applying that for others.
And in terms of the way nature plays that
role, it's been that common thread for me.
Because whenever I'm in doubt and I
don't understand a way to approach
a problem, I look to the systems
of the natural world, which is us.
We are inherently that natural phenomena.
Of course we are not separate from.
So if I look to what might be cues from
the outside that are easier to understand,
I can then inform how I make a decision.
And I learned a lot of that in the forest.
So I guess if there are some moments
of peak, understanding and integration,
it would be with communities that are
living and breathing this integration
with nature every single day.
And that was my biggest inspiration.
It's extraordinary how you bring
different fields of knowledge.
And integrate, them.
I feel that, through my own multicultural
experience and the experience of, living
in different countries by the age of
11, I had lived in six cities on five
continents and spoke five languages.
And I think one of the things that
kind of experience does to you is you
have an open mind to new cultures,
new tastes, new ways of thinking.
You have to adapt and be
flexible to new people.
I had to make new friends
in the new schools.
And so it's all different kinds
of information coming in at a
young age and then trying to make
sense of it and integrate it.
And, it feels like you're
doing the same kind of thing.
And especially your background
in neuroscience is pretty unique,
because you have the neuroscience,
but you have the indigenous and
all these other modalities as well.
I'm curious, how has the
neuroscience helped you?
In your journey and more specifically, the
default mode network, do you believe this
is where the ego lies, is in the default
mode, network and has this, how does this
relate to your understanding of reality?
Like a symbolic understanding of, reality.
So it's not just a material reality,
but there's like consciousness
going on all around this.
Okay, love this.
Okay, so the first question was around,
How neurosciences has shaped, my work.
Right?
So I see, so my background in neuroscience
was really to, I'm interested in
languages and story and how, how
different forms of perspective shape a
particular problem or trend or phenomena.
And for me, I was before working, you
know, going and, and doing research, I
understood from an embodied place like
what these big peak moments, what nature
intelligence, what plant medicine can
do for me and, and what I see in others.
And I value that.
I wanted to understand
what was actually going on.
If there was a, a way for
me to get a clearer picture.
By doing research, by essentially going
and digging through all the literature
that existed in this area of integrating
fungi medicine with psychotherapy.
What are the changes that
are happening in the brain?
Have we done enough research?
Is there still more to do?
And how that's more informed me
were than anything was actually how
to listen to read and understand.
Critically, a very scientific
perspective that essentially says the
same thing as the other perspectives.
What I basically learned is that we're
all saying the same thing in a different
language, and as you say, you learned
all these languages before the age of.
11 or five, five languages
before in an early age.
And, I do believe that that's the key
for regeneration and for emergence
is understanding different languages,
not literal languages, perhaps
spoken languages, but frameworks
and vocabulary for synthesizing
and analyzing a particular problem.
So that's actually of all things, how
neuroscience has actually helped my work.
I am not doing research anymore.
I did do a synthesis of music.
basically a comparative analysis of
indigenous based music traditions
that evoke certain, trance-like
states or, spiritual healing music
like during ayahuasca ceremonies
in Peru and how that compares with,
more generative music created in
clinical settings for psychedelic
assisted therapy in a clinical realm
and how we can make sense of the two.
So.
I also have this more like, you
know, a bit more geeking out on that
area, but more broadly how I use it,
my day to day is actually more just
for us to shape our conversations.
Now, that area of the default mode
network, which is so interesting
because that is, it's kind of become
famous in my world, you know, of
consciousness, of altered states,
psychedelic healing, all these sort of,
everyone's talking about the default
mode network, how it becomes disrupted.
You know, they say in the beginning
they would say it was actually
reduction in the default mode network,
but that's not actually the case.
It's within the default mode network.
You see a reduction in process,
but between networks is an increase
because there's actually an increase
in synaptic transmission and
conversation between brain regions.
It's very important.
But obviously when we're in a
peak state or we're activating
certain serotonin receptors with.
psychedelics, for example, we have a
change in the default mode network,
which is the seed of the ego, that
site of rumination of the eye, these
processes that when we're actually
in a depressed state or anxiety,
we are hyperactive in that realm.
And to calm it down actually allows us
to get bigger, to think bigger, to go
beyond that individual identity, right?
We identify so much
and then we get caught.
And so that's a little bit of that
to come to the idea of whether
in the non-material, right?
I think your questions around the non
materiality of the default mode network.
Yes.
And it occurs to me, and I know it
was a big question, but I'm so excited
that you're here to talk about this.
when the default mode network, reduces,
there is this greater connectivity and
I'm wondering whether that's what opens
up to the symbolic reality of the world.
In other words, we move away
from strict materialism into
more of a oneness or idealism.
Like non-duality.
Yeah, like unity.
If you talk to most neuroscientists
or other researchers in this realm
that are very much materialists,
they would not agree with this.
I was recently in New York at
a, what is consciousness kind
of panel, huge conversation
between materialists, physicists,
researchers, and a Zen Buddhist.
the differences in the
answer is very profound.
from my perspective now, I
believe that has a part to play.
I don't believe that is the.
Sort of trigger point or opening for
any form of the mind to conceive of
unity, consciousness and non-duality.
it's a supportive system.
However, if we just stick with the
default mode network, then we're also
just sticking with the mind as the
primary vehicle for achieving that
kind of consciousness relationship.
I believe consciousness is much
bigger than what can be described
through a mind based process.
It is, for me, more energetic.
More spiritual.
It is tangible even if we can get
to our sensitivity and our body to
be able to touch consciousness in a
way, in the, in the natural realm.
So yes, it's one of the many parts of what
can be conceived of as a tool for or a.
Or a gateway to this non-duality.
though I would by no means
limit it to that place.
yes, I love the way where this is
going because I think this is also
the whole, living system that we
are in, from the academic world,
the research, neuroscience, quantum
physics to, you know, what's we
can achieve with consciousness
or tapping into consciousness.
And then also, the world of the
indigenous wisdom that have been
carrying this type of wisdom, including
somatic wisdom that we took over
from, the Indian culture and all that.
But, what I want to go to is, I also.
You work with ritual, right?
or you work a lot with ritual in your
work and the importance of ritual.
Because in my own journey also, I think
what changed for me was literally to
sit in circles and in ceremony with
indigenous, people, you know, and the way
they, are so connected with nature and to
the higher realm or whatever we call it.
it feels so natural.
It's something that we
have basically forgotten.
Because we we're fully emerging in
the scientific world and the data
world, and I think, technology is
accelerating even, that limitation.
For us.
and so, I also believe a lot
in the importance of ritual.
So what I want to hear, like how
do you include ritual in your
work and also especially to the
business and entrepreneurial work
or startup world and all that,
I love talking about this.
Thank you for bringing it up.
Rudi ritual is, for me,
a way for us to remember.
It brings the sacred back to
our very sacred life that we
often, at least for me, forget.
It's so easy to forget who
we are and my, the simplicity
of what rituals can provide.
It doesn't have to be, this very
esoteric, inaccessible practice.
Rituals are our right to have, and
they've been going on for thousands
and thousands of years, and I was,
I knew of this, but what really did.
Become embodied and integrated for me.
When I also spend, like you've spent
time with communities that sit in circle.
The circle is one of the most powerful
shapes for community, for regeneration,
for emergence, all of these beautiful
words and practices that we care about.
And ritual for me is, a way to
remember that part of us and that
connection that we have, not just to
the environment, the current reality,
but to our ancestry, to our origin.
A big part of what I've learned and
what I think is important, especially
as we're looking at technology and
how we integrate new technologies like
AI into the future of business and of
work is to remember our origins, where
we come from, to remember that we in
rituals that honor ancestors, that
call in people that are no longer here.
If we don't actively practice the
fact that we've come from a place
and from other human beings that have
paved the way for us to do what we're
doing now, it is, a disservice to our
future as ancestors of the future.
So we carry on a lineage and align in
order to make this world a better place
because that is what we all as humans.
are trying to achieve.
And so I believe that it's about
also a remembrance of origin and to
bring presence to that and to our
physical body in any given moment.
So I've actually lit a
candle before our call?
So I have a candle right here next to me.
very simple ritual, right?
Working with the elements.
So how I bring this to my clients.
We are talking about the
elements of nature, right?
Water, earth, air, fire,
and the fifth element.
These elements make up everything, right?
And so rituals that I've learned
can be simple ways of acknowledging
and activating particular elements
in a particular moment in time.
So I have fire here as a candle
because we are talking about ideas.
We're igniting, we are, I'm
here on a podcast with you.
I wanna make sure that what I say is,
coming from this place of deep wisdom
that is ignited by This fire, this
passion of what it is that I wanna share.
what I bring a lot to are
rituals that also help.
Professionals, especially within climate
advocacy and in the climate sector, people
who are really focused on how we can make,
the earth, a better place, for us all is
to bring back, gratitude and awareness
for different elements like water,
So water ritual before drinking your first
cup of water in the morning to sit with
it and to acknowledge that this water
gives you life, this water is precious.
And to have a brief moment, just a brief
moment of pause before drinking the
water to bring attention and presence.
And so rituals can also look simple
from the outside, but when done with
intention, they completely transform.
Being outside, taking deep presence and
paying attention to, let's say your tree
or an element of nature that you see
every day in your neighborhood so that
you can watch it as the season goes by.
You can see how it changes.
That is also a ritual of presence, of
specific observation of an entity that
has a natural cycle that you aren't
part of, and that you observe that
wires a couple of little things in the
brain to then make you see and open
up more perspectives to other parts.
And then you start to hear more clearly
the sounds of the birds outside, which
you bring your presence and attention to.
rituals can be that kind
of more dynamic in nature.
Right.
Although I like to.
Circulate them around the elements,
because that is something we are
all part of and that we can all
understand and it's all universal.
For me, the, the most important part
of rituals is their universality.
you don't need to be, I think I come
from at least, in my days working with
this, you know, psychedelic ecosystem.
We are unaware of how we can,
make sense of all this history.
So we attach to other cultures and we
start to, even if it's unconsciously
appropriate, other cultures,
other stories, other traditions.
You see the famous.
You know, these images of people
donning feathers and putting on
things because they are connecting
with, a culture because this is what
they're learning and it's so beautiful
for them to have that exposure.
And at the end of the day, we
are all indigenous to some place.
We are not separate from any other person.
though ritual is universal and even
the sitting around the circle around
a fire, everyone since the beginning
of time has been able to do that.
And so really about connecting
to the universal principles that
connect us and guide us, and
to help people to have a way.
What I also teach is
how we can instill this.
Curiosity to uncover and create your own
ritual, your own practice of presence.
Everyone has their own
different way of doing things.
my candle lighting doesn't have
to work for everybody, right?
It can be another form, a morning
practice, something a little bit more
dynamic, a meditation and a journaling,
whatever it might be that brings
people to that state of, connection
with themselves and of course,
something larger than themselves.
what a beautiful description.
you bridge worlds.
You're like a bridge between different
worlds, between the scientific with
your neuroscience and the myth poetic
or the symbolic with these elements
and objects, like the fire and
water and feathers and the rituals.
And so you bring both together and
you see how one affects the other,
Carl Jung, a hundred years ago,
he was facing something similar.
He had the scientific background as
a psychologist, which at that time he
was trying to make into real science.
like Sigmund Freud.
It was a very respectable scientific
endeavor to figure out, psychology.
But Jung himself had this whole
mythical world that he didn't
show to the world at the time.
Because he was trying to be so serious.
So he put it all into the Red Book.
Yeah.
Which was published like
60, 70 years after, he died.
And when you open the
red book, it's like, wow.
All the images and his dreams
and everything he wrote
in there is all symbolic.
It's all myth poetic that all has this
other meaning, which psychologists
are still discovering today.
And so it's so interesting how,
bridging these different worlds, is
kind of a challenge because everyone
wants to be rational and scientific
but there's this whole other
understanding of the world that you just
described, which I think is beautiful.
So my question is how do you see
any myths or archetypes that are.
Emerging now, in this moment of
incredible change in the world.
do you see any kind of new
archetypes that are coming through
or new myths and how does this
affect, our relationship with ai?
you brought up AI and can we bring
this level of understanding to
our interactions with AI as well?
Oh, the myths and
archetypes that are coming.
I love Carl Jung and I, his
red book is fascinating, so
great that you brought it up.
and, you know, he really paved the
way, and I feel that now people today
who are in the sciences, or you know,
who are, let's say in psychology
or, the harder sciences can feel
more free to make these bridges.
the archetype that I see that's coming.
this is a tough question.
The first one I will come with what has
come intuitive, although maybe there's a
better, another one that will come after.
I do believe that the hero's journey is
being reimagined in this current, sort
of paradigm that we're in currently.
and specifically the relationship
with sort of our masculine, the
hero's journey for me is an inherently
masculine sort of storyline.
And what's really arising now is
this emergence of the feminine and
not the female, but the feminine.
And that as a sort of a carrier of
knowledge and who's sort of been
holding down the space for a long
time and hasn't really been given
that air to breathe and to emerge and
to really occupy its fullest power.
And so this feminine sort of
archetype that can counterbalance
all this journey that's going on.
we need to go through the muck and the
shadow and come out but the feminine does
it with a little bit more grace and poise
and natural with nature as sort of the
guide as opposed to maybe a more mind
and cognitive process, but more embodied.
We've been talking about embodiment,
and it's a, it's also I believe an
archetype of, or the feminine is giving
permission for other perspectives to come.
So we've been sort of.
And, you know, I will truthfully say
a big part of why I wanted to return
to and study the sciences is because
I thought that my ability to speak
about these subjects would be taken
with more credibility and seriousness
if I also did the research, if I
also went into that sort of masculine
paradigm and did the, and and was
able to focus fully on the mind.
So the feminine is integrating all the
pieces together to make whole, and it
carries it with a lot more, capacity and
for chaos and for mystery and for unknown.
And so tech with AI is a series of
processes of unknowns and we are literally
every day seeing what comes through from
a lot of these emergent, technologies.
The feminine is more comfortable
with this unknown, with the mystery.
And I'm seeing more of this now.
We are learning how to become
more aware of and attuned to an
unfolding that we cannot control.
and so yeah, that's a little bit of what's
coming through to answer your question.
Wow, this brings us exactly
where I wanted to go next.
so this is a perfect flow.
yeah, there's a lot to say about,
the feminine and the masculine
and, I think you also do work with,
feminine or feminine leadership
and circles or women's circles.
I do a lot of work and Alex as
well, with man circles and, I
think there are, you know, each.
Part or each work has their meaning,
you know, because men, they need to sit
together with men to get rid of their
shame and their guilt, and to actually
learn to trust again, the other men,
because we are in a, in a paradigm,
or we are in a belief system that we
cannot trust, trust the other man.
Yeah.
No, while from women, or a lot
more open and a lot more embracing.
And as, as you say, I, I really like
that the, the feminine gives permission
now for other worlds to, to emerge.
And, and I also feel that, you know,
it's, it's, there's a lot of work
done separately, you know, for men
and women, but there's also a need to
actually come together again, you know,
that we can learn from each other.
And I think especially in
leadership, because what we see
or what at, at least that's my
experience in the business world.
We see a lot of.
Feminine, or let's say women that
have a lot of masculine energy.
Yeah.
They express that masculine energy.
while, you know, part of the evolution
is that the feminine needs to return to,
you know, its natural feminine energy.
Also, to give that space for the
masculine to come back to its own,
form of healthy masculinity or divine
masculine or whatever you want to call it.
but both need each other to
reinforce each other, you know?
I also feel, I came to a point in my
man's work that, I really want to invite
the feminine again because without the
feminine, the man kind of stay stuck.
Their own masculinity or, you know,
without the feminine, it is not inspired.
I wanted to know from you, on
feminine leadership, how do you
live that feminine leadership?
And you work a lot on,
cyclicality, especially in a
linear world, an extractive world.
Like how does that feel?
How does that work?
You know, and how do you integrate that?
You know, like the seasonal,
cyclical, gestural rather, than the
gold driven, you know, very linear
type of dimensions that we are in.
So, and how do you bring that thought
in your work, you know, and especially
for female leadership and how do you
see that together with the masculine
leadership that needs to co-evolve?
Yeah.
I will say, you know, depending on
the context and the type of industry
and where I'm at in the world, it can
have different levels of challenge
to really, feel the full permission
to embody this feminine leadership.
In this current paradigm, we are evolving
it's interesting for what I'm seeing is
there are some spaces that are, different
levels of acceptance and awareness of
this evolving nature of leadership.
There are some rooms I walk into.
In business.
And I'm like, wow, this is
a, there's a long way to go.
How do I do my small little part in a
space where it's just masculine in the
sense that, look, there's decades and
decades of a system that has worked to
a point for now, and things have gotten
done and there's been a lot of success.
So how do you even approach a group
that is feeling and thinking in
this more, thinking in this way?
and then all of a sudden you have a woman
who has done so well in that paradigm, in
that way, and to say, oh, well, you know.
That a type, that boss type woman,
now, you know, she doesn't even
know how to approach coming back
to her a bit more of that energy.
That's actually much more powerful.
But that's been suppressed, right?
How do we even begin to approach?
I, if I had like the magic solution,
I would love to share it with you all.
but what I find to be the most
interesting in these spaces is finding
universalities and commonalities.
Where do we all agree or see the truth?
What parts of our own lives and how we
do business and how we carry ourselves.
Are we the same?
Because we are also focused on differences
and the differences are there, but we
are whole as if we are truly integrated.
We have both the masculine
and feminine inside of us.
Each, everyone.
We just find each other's common ground.
So more often than not in these
spaces, it's about more awareness
to the feminine because the
masculine's already quite developed.
And what does that look like?
That looks like gently integrating
in a very accessible way, practices
that get all men and women to look
at their feminine in the workplace.
it can, it starts with a little bit
more of the contemplative, like putting
presence to before a meeting, like a few
breaths before starting, asking everyone
to close their eyes and to come and
tap into their body for a quick moment.
You know, that's just a small
moment of bringing presence to
the body, to their attention.
I've done a lot of workshops, especially
in gathering spaces, conferences that are.
Usually with tons of talks, panels,
it's very cognitive in nature.
But then there's that moment of
integration, which I love that is
starting to become more of like the
feminine point where we connect,
we look at each other's eyes.
Eye gazing is a very, very intimate thing,
but when done a lot of respect and care,
you can really get to the universal,
the universal truth of the other.
And that for me evokes deep presence and
awareness of the other person's being.
And so you stop seeing the
other person as a sort of an
adversary, but as the same for me.
Those are like slight subtle forms of
integrating the feminine Now for women.
In terms of leadership,
you mentioned like cycles.
Obviously we have
different cycles than men.
We operate, on a 28 day
cycle, approximately.
We are not in the circadian.
Solar cycle.
I help women show that there's parts of
their cycle where they're obviously in
a phase when they're menstruating, when
they shouldn't be taking on big calls
or doing big meetings and they could
be resting and taking care of themself.
That's obviously an ideal situation, but
I gave a TEDx talk in Berlin last year.
I was bleeding that day.
Was I supposed to say, oh, you
know, I need to take care of myself.
I'm gonna cancel this huge
opportunity for me to go on stage
and there I had to do it anyway.
You know, fortunately or unfortunately,
we still need to operate and to be
sometimes public speaking, doing
a podcast when we're in a phase of
our life where maybe it's not ideal.
So I believe feminine leadership is
teaching, not just those are parts of
the cycle where it's important to be a
certain way, but to also give ourselves a
little more softness and permission to be
okay with just having to do what we need
to do and not putting so much pressure
on the fact that, it should be this way
and it's that way to be more comfortable.
I believe lead this type of leadership
is, I've said it before, comfortable with.
The chaos, the unknown, the
inability to control what happens.
We are not in control,
truly, I believe that.
And the more we are allowing life
to pass through us and to surrender
to it, this idea of surrendering
is of a more feminine concept.
it could profoundly change
how we see the world.
I dunno if you know the book or the
author, Michael Singer, have you
heard of the Surrender Experiment?
I just reread, I'm rereading it now.
I just almost finishing it.
I love this book.
This is an incredible story of a man
who has achieved so much success, who's
completely surrendered to his life.
And I believe that that in a way is an
activation of a feminine principle of, of.
The powers that be will happen
and it doesn't change or lower
the quality of your work.
It doesn't mean that you'll have less
value in a boardroom when you have
something to say, but it's really, a
different way of approaching a situation.
You also, I think Alex mentioned
that Rudy is a very good listener.
I will bring listening to this big
part of leadership, what I see is
the capacity to listen and to instill
in both men and women that feminine
aspect of listening, deep listening.
I don't know how many books tell us
that those, the best leaders are the
ones that listen more than they speak.
There is a truth to that.
There is a way to that.
That's something we learn
with indigenous communities.
the most powerful spiritual elder
leader in that room, in that circle
is the one who says very little.
He's there to hold that space to be.
Attuned to everybody.
And so whatever is spoken is very
strong, very articulate and resonant.
And so a way to balance like the loudest
voices in the room, especially with the
in vc, like this, need to speak louder
and to speak on top of one another,
make sure we have the last word.
And instead, and I've
suffered from this myself.
I would try and match that frequency
and that doesn't work for truly
embodied feminine leadership.
that's not what I've seen effective.
I love how you speak about that and
how, concrete it is when you speak
about the feminine archetype coming
into the world, like how it actually
really means certain things and
you speak about it so beautifully.
Sometimes I find that, talking with men
about the feminine, there's resistance and
it's like, no, we have to be men in the
world, and so we cannot, so I find that
finding another type of language to talk
about it is more productive, like more
of a structural language, like talking
about compression versus expansion, you
know, and so like there are times in life
where we have to kind of compress, we have
to control, we have to be very rational.
We have to dominate, you know,
we have to go out and do things.
But sometimes.
It's a cycle and sometimes it's a cycle of
expansion, of creativity, of intuition, of
allowing things to happen, of receiving.
And actually receiving is
its own type of strength.
It's not about going out and doing and
dominating, but it's about being open to
just being and receiving, what happens.
And so getting away from the masculine
feminine duality, which is difficult
for some and is very gendered to
talking about it in more, in different
vocabulary, to get at the same thing.
since we're close to the end here, I
wanted to get your views on AI and AI
and consciousness and, you know, what is
the relationship between the, like the
evolution of ai, which is very rapid.
And consciousness can it help
our spiritual development.
what is the role of, ai?
Are we getting into relationships
with chat, GPT and, what
is happening in this field?
AI technology in general, and
especially ai, it's a reflection
of our collective consciousness.
I believe it's a mirror.
It's accelerating, but it's a mirror
of what is happening in and around us.
And so it reflects what we value,
what we fear, what we ignore, what we
want to create, I've worked in spaces
where AI is shaping health outcomes.
I've been working with company
using AI to, support, for example,
therapists and coaches with their
clients that are undergoing big
peak transformational processes.
decision making processes.
Ai, I actually am very positive
about AI and what it can do for
us, but I do believe it comes
with a lot of responsibility and
care, from an ethical perspective.
what we do with AI is, is based on
our consciousness and the inputs
that we put into it is how it will
be received in all the systems that
are being created from that ai.
I'll give a story.
There's a woman who, I've met a few
times on this organization called
the House of Beautiful Business.
Her name is Wani Hoffman.
She's an indigenous knowledge scholar from
Kenya, and her work is actually very much
to bridge and distill indigenous values
and ethics and embed them into AI systems
so we can increase intercultural literacy.
So one story I think she mentioned at
a conference recently, similar to this,
and this is how I received it, you know,
you ask an AI currently, oh, my fence
bordering my neighbor's house is broken.
What do I do?
And then a traditional, chat will come out
and say, first, you know, call a lawyer.
Right then, you know, make sure that
you get all the documentation, the
photos you get everything fixed.
You get your insurance company,
there's a lot of process, of
course to get your fence fixed.
And then towards the end, it's like,
then you talk to your neighbor and you
tell them, you know, that we need to
get this fixed because the lawyer, you
know, they, they broke the law, whatever.
And then there's a system that
she's been training with this group,
one of an indigenous base through
some of the values from these
communities that she knows in Africa.
And the first answer is
like, call your neighbor.
You know, the same question is
posed, but the response is, call your
neighbor to go over to their home.
Have a conversation, right?
Like the very different way of
approaching the same problem.
The very last thing you do in that
list was to take any form of outside
action that would require hostility
in forming, you know, this more
of a transactional aggressive way.
So there's just, it's just to explain,
I just like to share that story because
I do believe that our consciousness is
very much related to how AI is going to
continue to shape how we see the world.
And it's important that we
embrace multiple perspectives
to inform the technology.
if we treat this AI with the same level
of high consciousness that we want
to see in our society, it will do us
that, but only if we do it in that way.
And we need to remember that
the ais are being trained by
specific groups of people.
With higher amounts of resources
at this moment in time.
And so we need to make an extra effort to
balance the skills to make sure that these
types of stories, worldviews, languages,
literal languages, are coded into this
technology so that it doesn't get lost.
And that people in the future who are
literally learning with AI, can also
learn all about these perspectives
in a more general and balanced way.
Yeah.
Good points.
Amanda, I'm also running a group on,
AI in the work where we actually work
with man that are using AI actually as a
personal growth tool and shadow work tool.
And it's very interesting because half
of the group is actually working with ai.
The other half is not, working with ai.
But then, every time also we check
with the collective intelligence
of the group and the circle.
And then AI hasn't matched that
intelligence yet, you know?
So, but yeah.
I also ask the question
like, who's behind the ai?
You know, and I think that's a very
important question and that we need
to, you know, be very aware of like
what is created and what is the
source of the AI in the future.
but I also believe at some point that
some of my, you know, AI can hallucinate,
some of my hallucinations is that, you
know, AI is now already has a lot of
students are using AI for their works
and their thesis a professor told
me that I think it's 60% already of.
Students using ai, but like more
than they are allowed to do.
they recognize that it's used more than
the quarter that they allow, which is
20% or something, but they haven't find a
real method yet to see what they go, how
are they gonna move forward with that.
But the vision is also that at a
certain point, these AI are talking
to each other, you know, and all
these AI start talking to each other.
And then what is the role of the human
then, you know, in our, you know,
intelligence or how that is gonna develop.
So I also believe that at a
certain point that there will be
a, an intuition from humanity.
And I truly hope so.
Also, that we are gonna return to
our own intuitive intelligence, you
know, and our own intelligence of,
you know, the body, the mind, the
spirit, the heart, you know, the soul.
I also believe that, you know, together
we can come to probably the next
paradigm shift, that is emerging already
in our networks, in our communities.
But we don't often see this
in the world right now.
I think now we are facing the shadow, a
huge shadow that has been accelerated by
the algorithms that we haven't been, you
know, especially the masculine has been
dealing with for, you know, you mentioned
decades, but it's centuries basically.
Yeah.
And that now it's like, I think it was in
another podcast that we did, was it with
Js Hutchings, Alex that he mentioned.
It's a huge rites of passage that
we are going through as a humanity.
But my question, before we go to the end
was like, what is the role of community
to you in all this development of like,
where are we evolving as humanity?
You know, with leadership, with
entrepreneurs, with startups that are
working in technology and the role of
community and, you know, sitting together.
I believe community is needed
now more than ever before.
We are in a really critical, state
of a shadow around our relationship
with technology and community.
when we have one another, we have
more nodes of data to understand
and to remember who we are.
If we only have our own lives, in our own
rooms, we don't have the opportunities
for the mirror in the other to reflect
back our own inner nature and community
helps us accelerate that and do that.
And the more people, human
bodies and I intuitive beings,
creative beings that are not.
We need each other to, to keep
remembering, to keep exchanging,
to keep that alive, so that we
can be in better service to all
that's unfolding with technology.
So that's now more than ever in
all aspects, the communities, the
professional communities between.
different areas of interest.
and there is a rise of that.
I'm seeing so many communities happening,
but what, you know, we're still in the
early days of what that actually means.
What is the governance around a community?
how deep does the community go?
Because there are some communities
that have a shared value system that's
inherently quite surface, or even in
inner development communities that
can bypass the actual real development
that needs to happen on the inside.
And then there are communities that really
are in the grind doing the real thing.
They're even learning how to
live together, how to plant,
grow food together, how to
educate their children together.
There's also that too.
So there's different levels of community,
but absolutely more than ever necessary.
yeah, for this, for this very
uncertain world that we're in.
I totally resonate with that.
Community is so important right now.
Amanda, I would ask you
what is next for you?
What is emerging through you and
where can people find you online?
is there anything else we haven't
asked that you would like to say?
what's next for me?
In the very immediate term, I will
share, in my pursuit of honoring diverse
perspectives and how we see the world
through different knowledge systems.
I've been, integrating, contemplative
practice, eastern based traditions in.
Different regenerative
systems in leadership.
And I'm going to pay a visit to
India to meet the Dalai Lama,
the leader of Tibetan Buddhism.
to learn how, the Tibetans, see the world.
I've drawn so much, wisdom and
inspiration from the forest and from
my indigenous friends in South America,
and I feel that the east has a lot of
knowledge and care and connection to
nature that I have yet to discover.
So what's next for me is to keep
cultivating that curiosity to understand.
and, continuing it with some projects.
So I'm working on a project
with a Brazilian friend of
mine, called Brazilian woman.
We're developing a global oracle of
words, that supports regeneration.
So we're amassing voices of people from
different industries who have words that
have been very powerful for them, that
they want to share, and to create our
own form of intuition and knowing and
conversation through an Oracle deck,
which is something that has been used,
from back until, the Oracles of Delphi,
let's say, could be the origins in
ancient Greece to this divination, but
to kind of bring it to a professional
contemporary context that still brings
ritual, but in a more, accessible way.
So I have this sort of words projects,
'cause language and words have
been very important on my journey.
And, to follow along a bit more of
what I'm doing in general, they can
find me on my website, amanda fio.com.
Quiet, if you can spell my last
name, it's quite easy to find.
and I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram,
and I'm very happy to talk to anyone
who wants to jam on any of the
things that I've spoken about around
integration, regeneration, traditional
knowledge systems, somatic intelligence,
all of these wonderful things that
the world needs more and more of.
Thank you, Amanda.
This has been a wonderful,
lovely conversation.
I really loved all the depth and the
diversity of all the topics that.
You bring together into one
hour, And, remind me, I need to
connect you to Thomas Mansfield.
You know Tom?
Yes, I do.
Yeah.
He's actually working with
regeneration and literature and a
lot of words, he's actually one of
our next, people in the podcast.
he's great.
So, I wanted to ask
you as a last question.
If there's one seed that you could
plant into this world, what would it be?
Yeah, I would love to plant the
seed of courage into this world.
More courage for people to, feel safe and
have permission to take authorship and
ownership of their lives, of their words,
of their truth, with a lot of uncertainty,
literally, so much happening right
now that can be quite challenging for.
For most to bear witness to,
the war, grief, everything.
economic collapse, political unrest.
we need to have a lot of courage
to show a lot of bravery to make
sense of these trying times.
And courage also for me implies
that it's not the absence of fear.
Courage for me is not the absence of fear.
Courage is the willingness to do
something despite all that, all that
might be coming because it's in integrity
with one's heart and one's truth.
if we all did that, the world
can be a very special place.
And so that is my seed.
Beautiful.
Thank you Amanda for this,
spending this hour with us.
And Alex, I leave the last word to you.
No, thank you so much.
I really enjoyed this conversation and
so good to meet you and get to know you.
thanks for your time.
Thank you.
Thank you, Alex.
Bye.