From Integration to Genuine Inclusion

Show Notes

Let us know what's up

Discover the complexities and triumphs of educational inclusion as we navigate the unexpected chill of Southeast Georgia's weather, drawing us indoors for a reflective conversation. Learn how to transform educational spaces into inclusive environments that empower students with disabilities to learn alongside their peers. With insights from parents and teachers, we explore what true inclusion entails, going beyond mere integration to ensure students receive the tailored support they need through individualized education plans (IEPs).

We unravel the challenges of achieving genuine inclusion in education, emphasizing that it involves more than just placing students with disabilities in general classrooms. Our experiences in various educational roles highlight the necessity of personalized strategies, sharing tales of both success and failure. Balancing diverse educational needs within classrooms is no small feat, but finding effective solutions is pivotal for each student's academic journey. Collaboration is key, and we dive into the importance of early intervention, open communication among educators, and teacher training to foster successful inclusion.

Join us as we share practical tips for teachers and parents on fostering inclusive environments. Discover the power of teamwork between parents and schools, and the importance of keeping the student's needs at the forefront of every decision. Engaging in open dialogue and exploring every avenue for inclusion can make all the difference, echoing the belief that change is possible for everyone involved. With inspiration from an iconic moment in "Rocky IV," we underscore the potential for transformation and the shared goal of creating a world where every student can succeed.

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What is Life in the IEP Tribe?

Join us as we dive into the world of special education with two educators who have walked the same path as many of you. In addition to teaching in self-contained and collaborative settings, our hosts bring a unique perspective to the challenges and triumphs of raising a special needs child. From classroom strategies to heartfelt family moments, they offer practical advice, empathy, and a community of support. Discover how their personal experiences can shed light on your journey and gain valuable insights into navigating the complexities of special education both in and out of the classroom. Welcome to the tribe!

Speaker 1: at the time of this
recording.

We've been in this house for
days at least the sun's out

right now yeah, it's been cold
like silly cold.

So, for those that do not know,
we reside in southeast georgia

and you know, typically when I
tell people that we live in

Georgia, their response is oh,
near Atlanta, no, no, no, no, we

live closer to Jacksonville,
florida, and so we're right.

I think we're about like maybe
seven miles or so from the

border, so we are not used to
super cold.

Like we get a week of winter,
it seems like every year, where

we have to pull out the big
jackets and cover our hands and

all of that.

Speaker 2: It's usually not even
until February.

Speaker 1: Right, and so what
we've had in the past couple

days is, in some areas close to
us, there's been snow.

I've got friends that have
posted pictures of beaches

covered in snow.

I've got friends that have, you
know, posted pictures of

beaches covered in snow.

Now we didn't get snow as much
as we got ice everywhere, and I

haven't lived up north in a very
long time, and so I am

incredibly thin skinned.

My blood is.

Is is pretty.

Uh, what's the word I'm looking
for?

Speaker 2: Thin.

Speaker 1: Thin, it's watery
even, and so, yeah, so we're

kind of hiding out in the house
and figured, hey, this is a good

time to put together a
conversation about inclusion Now

, we've talked about inclusion
before a handful of episodes

back Now, we've talked about
inclusion before a handful of

episodes back.

But what we want to do today is
we want to approach inclusion

from the standpoint of a parent,
from the standpoint of a

teacher, and kind, probably a
really good idea to provide a

definition on what inclusion is.

Because what I've learned is
that as a society we have become

okay with minimizing
definitions, okay with allowing

it, and when I say allowing I
don't mean like controlling, but

kind of assuming that when we
go into conversations that

everybody uses the same
definitions as we do.

And here's a quick thing about
the American language.

I was in a.

I had a class, golly, years ago
in seminary when I had an

instructor talk to me about it
was one of the Greek classes.

So Greek is for those of you
that have done it, and get it

good on you.

It was a struggle for me.

Speaker 2: I think there's a
reason, there's a term that says

yeah, it's just, it's Greek to
me.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

So this instructor was talking
about context right, and reading

things in context and allowing
context to build what it is that

build the perspective that you
have, build the foundation for

your conversation.

And he told us a story about
meeting somebody that worked for

Merriam-Webster's dictionary.

And my instructor said to this
friend of his that must be

really cool having a job that
dictates how the entire country

defines words.

He said you'd be surprised that
it actually works the other way

, that usage of the word over
time and that usage of the word

over time shapes the definition.

And so what he was saying is
that as the years go on and

people use words, it will begin
to change its definition over

time and be something completely
different than it was 20 years

ago Now at a very like
surface-level conversation.

You know, when we were growing
up, there were certain words

that you know that we used as
kids, that adults looked at us

and thought that's crazy, like,
that doesn't even make sense.

And now, even today, we hear
kids use words and we find

ourselves trying to figure out
where in the world did that even

come from?

Right, right, no, cap, what,
like why would anybody say that?

But then, like we said things,
rad and Bad man.

That's bad.

That's bad.

What do you?

Speaker 2: mean it's bad.

No, it's not bad, it's good.

Speaker 1: No, no, no, mom bad.

Speaker 2: That's bad.

What do you mean?

It's bad?

No, it's not bad, it's good.

Speaker 1: No, no, no, mom Right
, they're so old, they just deal

with the times.

But anyway, I said all of that
to say for this conversation to

go forward, it's probably a
really good idea to lay out our

definition of what inclusion is,
is, and so that way, if anybody

were to listen to this you know
, anybody other than my mom and

had some questions or comments
or something they want to add to

the conversation we're moving
from, we're starting on that

same platform of the definition
of inclusion.

So, laura, yes, can you define
inclusion for this conversation?

Speaker 2: Yes, so according to
the National Education

Association, or the NEA, the
Individuals with Disabilities

Education Act, or IDEA, defines
inclusion in special education

as providing students with
disabilities access to general

education classrooms and
curriculum.

It's also known as a least
restrictive environment, or LRE

so, and it aims to create
learning environments where all

students can learn together.

And, as we've talked before,
these students with disabilities

, we're talking about students
that have an IEP.

We say it all the time the I is
individualized, so not only is

their plan individualized, so
should their inclusion be

individualized and not just be a
blanket.

Either they're all in or all
out.

Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad that
you added that second part,

because if we would have stopped
that access, that could cause

someone to believe that
inclusion is simply having a

child with a disability put in a
classroom with kids that may

not have a disability or maybe
you know their development is

typical, but we know that
inclusion is so much more than

just putting a kid in a
classroom, right, right.

So if it was just access, well
then shove them all in, and I've

heard stories of districts that
do that, that there are schools

that would take profoundly
disabled kids and put them in

the same classroom with kids
that are receiving more support

for, say, a learning disability,
and those that are typically

developing.

So you have all these kids just
crammed into one room with six,

seven adults, the idea being
that, well, you have all these.

The number game is very popular
, and so the thought is well, if

there's all these adults in a
classroom, if we've got nine

adults in a classroom with 30
kids, I mean that's a three to

one, that's not bad, and that's
what happens when we play the

number game.

Now, anybody that has ever been
in a classroom before knows that

the situation that I just
described is scary.

It'd drive anybody crazy
listening to soft, sweet music

in my ears while rocking back
and forth?

That would be horrible for me.

But again, inclusion is so much
more than just access.

It's so much more than just
being put into a classroom.

Speaker 2: You have to provide
those students with

accommodations and the support
needed for them to be successful

in that setting, whether that
means successful academically,

successful socially,
functionally they need to be.

These supports and
accommodations need to be

provided so they can have be as
successful as possible when

they're in that setting.

Speaker 1: We've had some pretty
interesting experiences.

We've been able to work
together, and this is our fifth

year working together, side by
side, and prior to that I had

three years in the co-teach
setting and I know that you, as

a para, you worked in a special
education classroom.

I know that you worked in the
general education classroom at a

kindergarten level, where you
saw students of all different

abilities even at that age, at
that early age of five.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: And so and so there's
been, we've had a good bit of

interaction with what are
supposed to be inclusion

opportunities and what we found
is like what you just said, is

that that individualized part is
huge.

Like I can think of one student
that I that I worked with and

they were.

I mean they struggled in the
general education classroom and

they were in the classroom
because the parent just nope, I

just want them in there, just
nope, I just want them in there.

Unfortunately, this student
couldn't read, couldn't write.

That classroom with the student
for 45 to 50 minutes for math

and 45 to 50 minutes for English
language arts.

This student was not set up for
success.

Speaker 2: And you're not
talking about a kindergarten

student.

Speaker 1: I am not talking
about a kindergarten student.

Yeah, this isn't an early grade
like a kindergarten first grade

.

This was an older student and
so that's sad, because while

this particular student was
engaging socially, they were

able to take advantage of that.

The extent of their education
was next to nothing.

And unfortunately we'll see
things like that happen and

students just be kind of pushed
along and really not engaging

academically where they need to.

And so then there's one picture.

Then we can flip that too to a
time when I had another student.

That was was when I first got
the student was pretty

aggressive, um, handled, handled
redirection and direction not

very well at all, but the
student had a pretty high

aptitude, like they could learn,
they were smart, and what kept

them from spending time in the
general education classroom was

this behavior.

And so you know I do everything
I can to help the student get

out into that general setting,
because in the settings that we

work in currently settings that
we work in currently it is very

hard for the students to get an
education that helps them to

progress academically, right?

So if we were to talk about,
like our current setting, having

the self-contained adaptive,
adaptive curriculum inside that

group, it is incredibly hard to
cover the full spectrum of

education, right?

Right, it's hard to have a
group of seven, eight, nine

students whose aptitude is, I
mean, they're just, you couldn't

get any further and try to
allow them access to the

standards and academically grow.

It's very, very difficult.

And so there's kind of this, I
don't know this kind of like

issue of what do we do with
these students.

And so go ahead and answer that
question, laura, what do we do

with the students?

Speaker 2: I just want to put a
little bit, a little

clarification there too.

And you're talking about, you
know, the students and their

ability to learn.

Of course, all our students are
able to learn, and when you

were talking about the students'
ability to learn, that they

could learn, you meant learning
at a grade level, right Learning

at their grade level, versus at
an adapted level.

I'm not saying they can't learn
at all, you're not saying that

the rest of our students can't
learn.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: The ones in our class
?

Well, no, they don't need to be
in here because they can't

learn.

Speaker 1: No, no, no no.

Speaker 2: Just wanted to
clarify that little bit right

there and then to answer that
question.

What do we do?

Is what we like to say?

We push them out, we try to our
goal and we say this in kind of

a kidding, not kidding our goal
is to get our kids out of our

rooms.

As much as we love our kids, if
we can get them out of our

rooms as much as possible and in
that inclusion setting, then

that means the world to us.

However, we also have found
that sometimes some of our

students that are higher
achieving achieving and more

functional in our rooms it can
be deceptive because we have

them in our rooms and oh well,
you know, maybe the student, and

then they get into that
classroom and it's difficult for

them to keep up.

Speaker 1: So it's you know it's
.

It's an affirmation that they
are functioning best in our

class, academically and socially
right, so that forcing them

into that setting is not going
to help both sides of that the

social, emotional and the
academic.

Speaker 2: Right, right, but
we're also firm believers in

trying it as as much as we can
and as early as we can.

That we've said just with about
everything in this industry.

This field is that early
intervention, early detection,

early intervention, intervention
and why not try, when you have

these little ones in
kindergarten, and try to have

them in kindergarten as much as
possible, because, one, they're

kindergarten and they're going
to be immature, they're going to

develop it in different ways,
because you have some kids that

go into kindergarten and turn
five in a matter of weeks and

then you have other ones that
are in kindergarten and aren't

going to turn five until later
on in the school year.

So you know, so those are kind
of our experiences that we just

push it out, and we've had great
, great teachers that have, um,

some of them seasoned, said yes,
give, give, give me them all,

just give them all to me, and
then other ones that are like,

okay, so how am I supposed to do
this with these students and

this, this student and, um, you
know, and so that all the

teachers' experiences are
different.

We also have teachers that are
willing.

However, their preparation
courses don't necessarily teach

them extensively on how to teach
students with disabilities.

They may have a course or two
on how to help the lower

achieving students in their
classroom with disabilities not

necessarily students that have
more challenging, more

challenges learning than their
typical developing peers.

So our experience has kind of
been all over with inclusion.

Speaker 1: So if our goal is to
see our students progress

academically and socially,
emotionally, to the fullest

extent right, we want to see
them become the best all-around

individual that they can, how do
we make that happen?

And I think that you really
made a point in what you were

just saying about the importance
of conversation, right.

So we've had, we've worked with
different teachers that, like

you said, I know what I want to
do with them, I know how I'll

include them, I know they
already have that, that

perspective, knowledge right.

But I think equally as important
is to have the teacher that

says I don't, I don't know
exactly what to do, I don't know

what to do with this student, I
don't know what the best

approach would be.

And that's hard to do.

That's hard to do as adults,
that's hard to do as teachers is

to say, especially if we've
been doing it for a while, to

say I don't know.

And so I think that it has to
start a conversation If we're

going to be successful in
serving the whole child, which

is what our goal should be.

Now, if you're a teacher and
your whole thing is I just want

to have a schedule that matches
my kids and not have to work in

the summer.

Go do something else, like for
real.

Just go do something else
because you're not doing

yourself any good, you're not
doing the kids any good.

Just find something else to do.

But I believe that I don't know
if I've met a teacher Let me

think about this I don't think
I've met a teacher that gave me

the impression they don't care
about the kids.

So if they're out there,
they're few and far between

Right.

And so if we can tie to that
goal of helping the child be

successful, I think step one is
conversations, again being

willing to say I don't know what
to do, and to collaborate with

each other to talk about ways to
best serve these kids.

But what are some other things
that need to happen for us to be

successful?

Speaker 2: Well, like I said,
this conversation, that

collaboration is key Because
we've had students that we share

with the gen ed teachers and
then they also possibly are in

the classroom when the co-lab
teacher comes in and serves.

So then the co-lab teacher has
questions and, look, I mean

we've worked with some great
co-lab teachers that are willing

to take on the responsibility
of working with students even

though they're not technically
their responsibility.

Speaker 1: Not necessarily on
their caseload that love the

students and want though they're
not technically their

responsibility Right.

Speaker 2: Not necessarily on
their caseload, that love the

students and want to see them
benefit and like, hey, if you

can help them and I can help
them and we all can help them.

And so the hard part there is
that collaboration time, because

okay, well, this teacher has.

Well, we had one teacher try to
schedule a meeting and say,

okay, can we talk first thing in
the morning?

And it's like, okay, well, they
get here at this time, but then

this one they have this amount
of time in the morning and then

you know, we start receiving
children earlier than this one,

and so it's like we can give you
five minutes or we can catch

each other in the hallway maybe.

So that's one of the things, at
least at a school level, that

those teachers need to be
provided with some time to talk.

And then the parents need to be
included as well.

And you know you've said before
that we're not assuming that

these parents don't know or
understand.

You know what is offered and we
know that we have parents that

you know research and look and
say, no, this is what I want for

my children or my child.

But you know, parents need to
be involved in those

conversations and I think
parents need to be aware that

their voice is important in this
.

I recently had parents tell me
so well, you know you're the

teacher, so whatever you think
is best we should do, and I told

absolutely not.

No, that's not how it should
work, because you're their

parent and your desires are
important, and parents need to

know that if you want a certain
setting for your child, then

these things should be done to
accommodate that to a I don't

know what word I'm looking for
there rational level.

I guess you would say You're
going to have team members that

disagree, but I think in the end
what needs to be looked at is

what is in the best interest of
the student.

Pulling them out just to pull
them out does them no good.

Push them in just to push them
in sometimes is more harmful.

But providing it goes back to
providing support support to the

teacher, support to the student
, support to the support staff

that might be working with them.

That's one of those things that
need to happen, for those are

some of the things that need to
happen for inclusion to be

successful.

As far as also training his
general education, teachers

aren't often equipped how to
instruct students with

disabilities.

Paraprofessionals aren't always
, don't always, receive training

in how to support students with
disabilities, how to modify

some of their work.

We're fortunate to have a
fantastic staff for some of our

children that go into the
general education classes and

that can say, okay, so they're
working on this.

And I was thinking that maybe
something like this do we have

anything that I can take with me
so they can still be working,

but not necessarily this level.

And, however, all support staff
haven't received that kind of

training or instruction or have
that knowledge.

Speaker 1: I know, as human
beings, it's not uncommon to not

be able to see past what you're
in the middle of at the time,

right, and so it's easy for a
teacher to, and it makes sense

to be focused on what is
happening between these hours at

school, right?

So this is what I see from the
student at this time and not

consider another perspective
outside.

I'm not saying you won't listen
to another perspective or

anything like that, but the
thought doesn't often even cross

the mind, because this is what
I'm dealing with right in front

of me, and I know that we just
recently realized that.

You know, we never asked
parents like where do you, where

do you see your child going?

What does it look like to you
based on your interactions with

your child, right?

What do you see for middle
school, high school, you know,

post-secondary?

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: What is it that,
based on your experience, based

on your time with your student
or your child, what do you see?

Because everything that we talk
about is going to be, from what

we experience in these walls,
our job.

We don't work in other settings
.

We're not like the ABA
therapist or the occupational

therapist or the speech and
language pathologist, who often

work outside of the school
system as well.

We just see them inside of our
walls, and so it's important to

be able to take those two
pictures and put them together,

because without doing that,
we're trying to solve a puzzle

without the box.

All right, we've got pieces.

I've got my puzzle piece in
school, parent, you've got your

puzzle piece at home and with
family, and when you go to the

grocery store and when you go to
Walmart and when you go to

church and whatever it is that
your life is built around.

But we have to be able to take
those things and put them

together, and that doesn't
happen unless we have

conversations teachers having
conversations with teachers, gen

Ed SPED, parents having
conversations with Gen Ed SPED

and really looking for what
needs to happen to help get that

student to where where,
collectively, we believe that

they can go or should go right
um yeah, dropping stuff, it's

all right.

Speaker 2: I, yeah, I agree 100
that the first step in

successful inclusion is
communication, and whether it be

emails or set up a meeting, and
, as we all know that our

schedules are different, our
times that we're serving kids

are different and our planning
is usually different, and so

just trying to find some common
time to meet and discuss these

things are important, and so I
mean there's some things that

we'll go.

You know, briefly, some tips,
just to get started.

If you go back to work next
week and you're a teacher and,

hey, guess what, the students
come into your class.

Speaker 1: Because it could
happen.

Speaker 2: Right, you know what
do you do.

Or a parent, you know you
decide that, okay, hey, I want

my child to be included more.

What do you do?

So a couple of things as far as
teachers, what they can do to

ensure that the students that
are coming into their class have

a space for them and I know
space is precious in these

classrooms.

There's a lot of things that
need to be in classrooms, but if

you can give these students a
place that's theirs you don't

understand how huge that is,
whether that's a desk, or if you

have tables you give them a
seat at the table with their

peers instead of okay, they can
sit at this back table, back

here, because that's really not
inclusion and invite them to

your parties, whether it be
class parties.

Ensure that the students coming
into your classroom get invited

to field trips and we've got
some teachers that do this

already.

We're fortunate to have them
and when they're on these field

trips, let them, you know, make
sure that they're not.

Let them make sure that they're
included in the groupings and

included in the pictures and the
lunches, because they're coming

into your classroom, they're
part of your class and help them

.

Speaker 1: Help them feel like
that they're part of your class

and help them feel like that.

So another thing that I would
want to add to that, as far as a

teacher goes that has the
inclusion setting and we've

already talked about asking
questions, but I would even go

as far as to you know, let me
push pause on that let's talk

about just for a second, the
inclusion teacher.

Like us, we should be having
conversations with those general

education and co-teach teachers
as well Because, like you said

earlier, you know we see our
kids operating in our setting

and there's oftentimes things
that we see that would help us

or cause us to believe that they
might work, might be able to

get some more inclusion time,
and so for those things to

happen, there's got to be that
connection with the excuse me

the adaptive teacher and the
inclusion teacher to talk about

those things.

What do you think the best way
to try this out would be and we

see more of that in elementary
school, because we're just

beginning to learn at this time
as students but what part of

your day do you think would be
best for a student?

That one, two, three, right,
that we academically don't know

that they're going to be able to
connect with it at all.

However, we want to see them
connect with students their age

and get some of that social time
.

How does that work for you?

When is best for you?

Instead of of we often just try
to like, force people into

places, and that's not.

I'm not saying just the
adaptive teachers, I'm saying

all teachers, because we have so
much to deal with.

It's one of those.

Well, here, just try it, tell
me how it goes right.

And then, from a teacher or
from a parent standpoint, if you

have a student that is in an
adaptive classroom and is

self-contained and you want to
see your kid get an opportunity,

go ahead and start talking to
your teacher.

Give it a shot, because you're
never going to know unless you

try.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: So we've been talking
for a little bit now, and I

think it's about time to wrap it
up.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 1: Do you have any
last-minute words of wisdom that

you would like to share with
our listener?

Speaker 2: I think, just
following up what you talked

about, the parents you know that
share these concerns with your

teachers your child's teacher
and or these desires for your

child's teacher and ask
questions and if there's

something that is important to
you, then do everything you can

do to ensure that you've
explored every option,

everything you can do to ensure
that you've explored every

option?

Speaker 1: Yeah, we got to be
willing to.

You know, leave our toes at
home.

Yes, don't worry about them
getting stepped on and remember

that it is the kid right, the
student.

Speaker 2: And it's a team.

It's not the school versus the
parent Right and parents.

If you've been led to believe
that whatever the school

proposes or whatever the school
thinks is final say, then I

apologize, because that's not
the case.

Your voice matters, your
opinion matters, you know you're

also.

You are one of the experts on
your child absolutely so we'll

wrap up with this.

Speaker 1: This entire time I've
had the like that last scene of

rocky four playing in my head,
after he just gets done beating

the russian, and they hand rocky
balboa the microphone and he

says, if I can change and you
can change, everybody can change

.

And then you know like all the
Russians are chaining his name

because that's what would happen
.

That's exactly what would
happen.

So, anyway, until next time
again, I'm Jared with my wife,

laura, and we'll see you later.

Take care.