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A really warm welcome to you to this month's episode of the Building Women Podcast. Today, I meet the brilliant Dipalee Jukes, co founder of Ground and Water. She's an engineer entrepreneur whose candid story spans cultural identity, breaking barriers, and starting a business in a recession. We talk about grit, growth and building sustainable places. This is a fascinating, energising episode packed with insight and inspiration that you definitely won't want to miss.
Speaker 1:Dipalee, hi. Welcome to Building Women. Thank you very much for agreeing to take part. It's great to meet you.
Speaker 2:Hi Julia, it's great to be here.
Speaker 1:Fab. Shall we dive straight in? Would you like to tell us about who you are and maybe a bit about where you grew up, your parents perhaps, and maybe what you were like when you were small.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah a lot to unpack there Julia. Well currently I am a mum of three and I reside in South East London. But growing up, I grew up on the other side of London. I didn't travel very far, so South West. I grew up in a very sort of suburban London in the 80s and 90s, but it was sort of a very white community and my parents were first generation immigrants.
Speaker 2:So we stuck out a little bit like a sore thumb. So that kind of outlines a little bit about my upbringing. So it was very much I often refer to it as a sort of an in between life. We're kind of second generation children. We live two lives.
Speaker 2:It was very culturally at home. It was a very patriarchal Hindu household. And outside I went to a Baptist school. So it was very conflicting, trying to integrate and fit into a white society, but then also literally switching as soon as I walked through the door at home. But it was a happy childhood.
Speaker 2:And I think the main thing that my parents sort of instilled in me, entrepreneurs and business owners and worked very, very hard. And it was that value of hard work and grit and perseverance I think which has definitely sort of followed through I think.
Speaker 1:Did you find that confusing as a child or was it just how it was and it was your normal?
Speaker 2:Yeah I mean it was my normal and I didn't question it because I didn't have anything else to compare it to. I did used to get frustrated at sort of my white friends being able to do things and I wasn't, but it just culturally it wasn't what they were used to. I think now I have an understanding of it and making sure that I sort of honour with my own children now as we are doing a bit of everything and we're honouring both cultures and making sure that they don't miss out on anything.
Speaker 1:So what was it like in your household growing up? So you said your parents were entrepreneurs and had their own businesses and worked very hard on that kind of the you know grit element. Is that what you're like now? Did you sort of how has that made you into who you are today seeing that growing up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, mean, I think subconsciously it was probably baked into me that entrepreneurial spirit because my parents are part of the huge Indian diaspora that because of the British Empire, won't go into history too much. From India, a lot of them went to Africa and then the East African Indians got booted out in the 60s and 70s and then a lot of them came to The UK. And my father was part of that wave and they literally came with nothing. And a lot of them set up businesses. They were very good business owners.
Speaker 2:And I think through that and just working seven days a week and just being really determined because they'd had their whole livelihood taken away from them. And I think growing up with that mentality and seeing them work and the children were expected to sort of help out the family business after school and at weekends and so we all mucked in and that was just the way of life. And I think that's kind of made me realise that if you want something you're going to have to roll your sleeves up and get on with it. So I'm very much of that attitude I think with work and life. If you want something you're going to have to work hard, there's no easy route.
Speaker 1:Yeah and so that kind of work ethic was instilled in you from a really young And I guess with that, were you expected to work really hard at school and get a really good education? But then it sounds like you were working in your spare time for your parents for their business as well. You were juggling at a young age.
Speaker 2:Juggling both and I think growing up in that Indian household there is a cultural expectation that your children will do really well academically and that was across the board, that was with my cousins and because the parents had emigrated over and had sacrificed so much, we had a lot of pressure to do well because they were doing it so that we could have a better future. And so I think I felt that pressure and put it on myself. I probably pushed myself more than I was pushed to do well.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and did you do well in school? What you like as a child? Were interested in, because obviously ground and water and where you are today, how did that come about?
Speaker 2:I must say I was a proper sort of geek when I was younger. Used to do extra homework. Mean, but I had a fascination for geography from a really young age. Seem to remember sort of looking at maps for hours on end, probably from as young as the age of eight. I just found them fascinating.
Speaker 2:Then geography in secondary school, I had a fantastic teacher who just inspired me. And then I loved the physical geography side with the earthquakes and the plate tectonics and that sort of thing. I just got more and more curious about the natural world, I think. And it never sort of disappeared. Then I remember really vividly, it was one Christmas, I was 15, sort of flicking the TV channels.
Speaker 2:And it was the Geological Society of London's Christmas lectures were televised and they were on the TV and I was watching them and instantly I was like, oh geology, that's a different side of geography and taking that physical geography side a bit further. And it was then that I realised actually I really want to have a look at this area and study it. I went on to do geology at university, spent four years there doing a degree and a master's. And then I came out actually with not much idea of what I wanted to do, which I think is a really important point, especially for younger people listening to this podcast, you don't have to have it all figured out. I was aged 22, still not having a clue what career I'd go into.
Speaker 2:And I sort of fell into it, I suppose.
Speaker 1:It's funny because that theme comes up pretty much on every episode and that all you sort of amazing women who have made your way in construction and the built environment and got to where you are, actually nobody set out on that journey when they were 18 knowing exactly what they want to do and going down that road. Know, most of you guys and me as well in my career, kind of fallen into it or just pick something because it sounded quite good degree wise or just pick something you're interested in. But actually maybe without sort of putting words into your mouth, maybe your success in what you do has come from that passion for it at a young age do you think? And kind of choosing it?
Speaker 2:I think so. I've never focused on the money and what job I would get, but it was what am I interested in? What am I curious about that I'm going go and study for four years in real depth at university? And I don't know if that's the right way or not, but I chose something that was really fascinating to me and I enjoyed the field trips and the practical side and sort of the theory of the classroom but also going out and seeing it in life. For me that was really important and so it ticked all the boxes.
Speaker 1:Did you, as part of your degree, were you out sort of on the field? And first question, where did you go to university? And then were there any elements of your degree that kind of led to your next steps?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I went to the University of Southampton, which was fantastic. I was down in Southampton for four years and yeah, the field trip side sort of from the first year you're out, the typical ones where you go to South Wales and Denby. I think that was my first field trip. Then you get you go to Yorkshire and doing some work there. Isle Of Wight has a fantastic looking at the Jurassic Coast.
Speaker 2:Field trips abroad were really fun as well, like a couple of ones to Spain and to Cyprus. For our third year dissertation project we had six weeks out in the Pyrenees. So actually a big achievement of mine is I managed to camp for six weeks, never having camped before in my life. I had six weeks of mapping so we were working every day pretty much. But it was really interesting and I think at that point I was like no I really do enjoy this sort of practical aspect of problem solving.
Speaker 1:And how supportive were your parents in your choice of degree and things? I guess with you not knowing where it was going to lead, was that ever an issue?
Speaker 2:I know a lot of Indian parents do have quite an opinion about this. I think definitely when I was younger I felt the pressure, but I think as I got older and a little bit more stubborn and determined, I think it was just my mum at that point. She did let me get on with it actually and not get in the way too much by that point. She never pressurised me when I said I'm going to do this for a degree. So I was very lucky in that respect.
Speaker 2:I think I put the pressure on myself and I know other people and other cousins and things who really felt the pressure of doing a traditional degree and career path that's suitable for an Indian girl.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of why I asked because I've had conversations with other people who felt that I I need to be a lawyer or a doctor and those are my only two options kind
Speaker 2:of different family. Think culturally there was a wider expectation from the wider family luckily it all worked out at the end.
Speaker 1:And so where did that take you then? So you came out with your degree and then how did you get into the built environment?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I basically came out of university with a degree and a Masters. I ended up temping and applying for every job I could find at that point and I remember then it was sending off your CV and handwritten application forms and posting them. And I did that for months on end until an old university friend of mine, we'd on the same course together, Francis, he said, oh, I'm at this consultancy down in Southampton. There's an opening. It was a geotechnical consultancy and I was like, oh, okay, that sounds interesting' and aligns a little bit with what I've studied.
Speaker 2:And I knew him so I went along for the job and I got it. But it wasn't even a graduate position, it was a site technician. So I was literally in this Ford Fiesta van driving around the whole of England and Wales for at least six months, just going and doing site works from site to site every day. And that was my foot in the door into the industry. Was just like I'll take it.
Speaker 2:Within six months I got promoted to a graduate engineer and I just worked my way up in that business until I got to a senior engineer after five years. And by this point I was in my late 20s and firstly I'd always wanted to go travelling so I needed a career break at some point I thought before I had kids. And secondly I was also in an engineering firm where I was the only female engineer. I was starting to think how am I going to make this work in a few years if I decide I want children and get to that next phase of my life? It was all these questions that I needed answering and sort of the culture was very different to workplaces these days.
Speaker 2:It was run by middle aged white men, which there's nothing wrong with middle aged white men, but me being the only person of colour and the only woman on the team. There were other barriers that I was faced with and I knew that some of my colleagues who were doing the same work were paid more than me. It was all those frustrations, I think, built up. And eventually it was the two thousand and eight recession. I had decided I was going off travelling, which was brilliant timing.
Speaker 2:Went off for a year, came back with clarity that actually I was going to try it by myself. And if it didn't work out, I'd go and get a proper job was my mentality. So they say ignorance is bliss and I managed to convince my friend Francis, who was also at the firm. We'd had lots of chats and I was like it's now or never because I have no job to come back to, I'm unemployed, the industry is in a recession, it's probably a really good time to just test the water and I'll kick start things and see how they go. And then you can come and join me once I've set it up and things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so within three weeks landing back in The UK after travelling, I was at my mum's dining room table incorporating the company.
Speaker 1:Do you think the confidence to do that came from seeing how your parents managed things? Or I'm just interested as to like how did you even know where to begin?
Speaker 2:I don't know. Probably a little bit of madness probably runs through my veins. I think the confidence of my parents had done it and they ran tea businesses and I thought, well, it can't be that we'll just figure it out. It's just a series of steps and if it really doesn't work out then I know I can go and get another job. And at the moment, at that time, I was like, don't have a family, don't have dependents, I can take a little bit more risk and a bit more gamble.
Speaker 2:So it was a calculated risk. That question is quite difficult to answer actually because I do sit with it and I do get asked it and I'm kind of I'm not sure what possessed me but maybe it was kind of a now or never of you get one life, let's give it a shot.
Speaker 1:It's amazing and is that when you set up Grounds and Water?
Speaker 2:Yeah so I was 29 and that was nearly sixteen years ago in two weeks. How
Speaker 1:did you find it in those early days? Did you have to go out you must have had to go out and promote the company and how did you go about doing that and growing the business as a woman of color as well in the industry, right?
Speaker 2:I mean I was petrified of networking and it wasn't as prevalent as it is now I don't think. And there weren't any women who were going to those things. You walk in and it's a sea of white men and pastel coloured shirts. I still get that at some events, I'm less daunted by it these days. Yeah, networking was really difficult and we also didn't come with a little black book.
Speaker 2:We had to pick up the telephone and cold call and win over prospects to start getting customers in through the door. I'd say the first twelve months were incredibly hard. It took us about three months to get our first customer and to set the
Speaker 1:Not actually very long. I'm sure it felt it.
Speaker 2:It did and we didn't really do any marketing at all. Were marketing, it was just us picking up the phone and talking to people and going seeing people and then doing a good job and then they come back and that repeat customer. Was a referral based business, so we do a good job for one customer, they refer us to somebody else and they keep coming back and it sort of just grew very organically like that. Funny because we were good engineers so we thought we could run a business, but little did I know that running a business is such a different skill set to actually just doing the work. So I had to become a marketeer and a salesperson and a finance manager and all the other 20 hats that you have to wear.
Speaker 1:Because you can't in those early days, there's no budget for an accountant or a head of HR or know There's absolutely nothing.
Speaker 2:No, we bootstrapped the business so we put in some savings each and said right that's our pot of money, we've got to see how far that stretches and we have to make money as soon as possible so that we can live. We didn't pay ourselves for the first six months And then even when we did it was such a menial sort of salary that you couldn't live off it at all. But we did put those sacrifices in.
Speaker 1:Were you living at home with your mum at this point still? So is that how you were able to do this? Or how did you do that? No, no. Because at that
Speaker 2:point I was 29, we had actually bought a house. Me and my it was my fiance at the time, now my husband but we had a mortgage to pay and so did Francis. So we were both financially we had debt to repay and to live and things. Thankfully our spouses did support us in those early days.
Speaker 1:Yeah and it's so important isn't it that you know how you have that support network around you because I think most of the women I've interviewed have had that either somebody who sort of mentored them or championed them early on in their career and you've mentioned your job, you know wonderful geography and there's always someone who sort of starts the inspiration to go into a certain area. And then just the importance of having a supportive partner. Because, know, when you said you didn't have commitments and you could do it and take that risk, actually you did because you had a mortgage so it wasn't entirely risk free what you were doing. So it must have been really important to have that support from your partner and that encouragement. Is that kind of is that how your relationship is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Think without his support and in the background actually both of our partners were there to muck in. It's basically a family affair. We've all put in the hours and the graft and my husband is in IT so he set up all the IT infrastructure for us. He built our first website and this is all just because he was supporting me.
Speaker 1:Amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's great.
Speaker 1:Question but do you think the years working for your parents, I mean I don't know what sort of business they had, but that kind of the customer side of things and the having to put yourself and go out and sell yourself, did any of your early sort of work experiences help towards that?
Speaker 2:I guess it did actually. I've never really reflected on that bit. My parents had a news agent. When I was really little I'd be stacking shelves and cleaning and sweeping the shop floor and then as I got older I was serving customers and I was pretty good at it. And in those days the till was pretty old school so it didn't work out the change for you either.
Speaker 2:So you had to I know it would add things up but you'd have to work out the change yourself. So I got pretty good at the numbers too and stock taking and all of those things. But I think yeah the customer facing stuff probably get used to dealing with people you don't know.
Speaker 1:And so where are you at today as a business? How has it changed I guess on different levels? So how has the industry changed around you and how it you know the ways in which it's different today? How have you changed maybe as a person in those sixteen years?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I've changed massively. I was a very I was still quite a scared, introverted, not confident person. I was very happy hiding behind a spreadsheet when I first started and I knew I was good at the engineering, but all the other business side of things where you have to be the spokesperson and you have to go out and talk to people and do the networking and all of those things I just really didn't enjoy at all and sort of tried to avoid them as much as I could. In terms of personal development, I mean, have found that grounded confidence to go out and do those things. Even if it feels daunting, I'll still sort of find the courage to put myself out there.
Speaker 1:How do you do that for anyone listening and feeling the same way? Because we have a lot of people listening who are early on in their career or still students and thinking about getting into construction. So yeah, how did you do that?
Speaker 2:I've done a lot of work on myself and some of it was not pretty, but it's kind of really sitting with yourself and doing the boring repetitive things and building daily habits and rituals and the self compassion. I journal every day which I am very religious about. It's my self therapy of processing my emotions, my thoughts, but also clarifying goals and ambitions and dreams. I use that as a real tool actually to help my own development and confidence. Journaling is one thing.
Speaker 2:Meditation, so creating that stillness, I think is super important as well in this world that's just too fast paced I think at times and you kind of and sort of being very disciplined social media of when you're on and when you're not and not comparing your journey to someone else's which is so easy to do. But I think sitting with yourself and spending that time with yourself with journaling and meditation for me has been a real game changer I think in sort of helping me realise my potential and getting out of my own way. I think often our self talk is so sabotaging that we sort of talk ourselves out of things and down before we've even given ourselves a shot at trying it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I suppose what you've shown by the way that you've shaped your own career, you know, at mere age twenty eight, twenty nine, when you just decided to start your own company, is you don't need to know 100% of how to do it. You just need to have that kind of want to do it. And I guess you knew you were a good engineer, you knew what you were doing there and the rest you can kind of figure out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always say take the bold action and then you can figure it out. But I think if you don't take that bold action, we're natural procrastinators as human beings and we will just sit on things. And I do love planning and organising things, but I think sometimes if your gut is even over, you get over that 51% 'yes, I think I can do this' it's going be really scary and hard and I'm going to have to go off and work out how to do it. But actually listen to that gut feeling a bit more and then back yourself because no one else is going to be your cheerleader as much as you can.
Speaker 1:What are your aspirations for the business now? Are you happy with where you've got it to? Have you got a five year plan? That type of thing. I
Speaker 2:went out on a run this morning and contemplating I my five year plan, to be fair. But yeah, I think we're coming up sixteen years, team of 20, and I'm probably more ambitious now than I've ever been about where I want to get the business, which is quite exciting. We want to get to B Corp status. We're sort of in that process. We want to grow the business, want to open up regional offices and be UK wide at least.
Speaker 2:We want to double our revenue. So there's lots of financial goals and things, but also developing our people, which is lovely because we get our graduates in and then we build them up. Some of our graduates are now senior or lead engineers in the business who are really leading on the innovation on things. It's really lovely to see. So yes, building our people but also making an impact in the industry as well and doing more outreach.
Speaker 2:I'd like to structure it a bit more. So we do go into schools and colleges and universities and do talks and things, but how can we make that impact bigger? How can we reach more people? How can we talk to more students? And talk about sort of the things that we do because I don't think as an industry people really understand what we do or know that we even exist.
Speaker 1:No, and that's yeah, it's kind of one of the things behind doing this podcast is just a bit of education around the jobs that are actually available in the industry. Because I think when we talk about construction, I think most people just see a man in a hard hat sitting behind some construction vehicle and you just think of being on-site, don't you? And nobody realises all the different roles that are actually at play behind the scenes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean there are so many different roles and probably more than we have time for. But I think there's something for everybody And it's just seeing, I mean for us and our engineers, it's the work we do on construction sites. At the end of it, we're helping buildings stay upright. We're keeping buildings safe and people who are going to live there safe eventually, and cleaning up brownfield sites
Speaker 1:and
Speaker 2:creating a more sustainable future. So I think they get a real buzz out of the legacy that they're leaving.
Speaker 1:Yeah and coming to sort of gender equity and that angle, are you seeing more women coming forward into what you do now or is there still do you think a lot of work to be done?
Speaker 2:I'll start on a positive. There are a lot more women generally in engineering than there were twenty years ago when I came in or '23. But there aren't so many coming through in ground engineering specifically, which is the area we're in. There's a lot more in civil and structural engineering. See lots more in architecture, which is sort of, I guess, just on the edge of engineering.
Speaker 2:But in ground engineering itself, not enough women. Most of the CVs that land on our desk are still men. And if you're thinking of people of colour as well, when you look at that demographic, that's still very low. So there is work to be done.
Speaker 1:Turning to my kind of final question that I always end on, and thank you everything you've shared with us today and for being so open and honest. It's just fascinating hearing all these different journeys that people have taken and such a massive step to take in your 20s. But yeah, is there particular book or a post? So I should say actually, we were connected, weren't we, through Faye Allen, who has written an amazing book that I'm still working my way through but nearly finished called Building Women, which is the same as the name of the podcast. But I wondered if apart from Facebook, is there any book or podcast which has really inspired you or maybe just one that you listen to and find really interesting, use to relax?
Speaker 1:I don't
Speaker 2:know. Yeah I mean that this is a really hard question because I'm an avid reader and I've got Building Women by Faye. I bought it, I need to read it. I actually spotted my name in it which is lovely, it's very kind of Faye, she's a big advocate, she's a brilliant ally. One book actually can I name two?
Speaker 2:Is that cheap?
Speaker 1:Yeah go for it. No it's fine.
Speaker 2:So I think more generic for just building confidence and finding that inner lion is a book called Wolfpack by Abi Wombach. It's a brilliant book. It's a very quick read. You could read it in an hour or two. But Wolfpack, if you Google that, it's fantastic and I read it once a year.
Speaker 2:It's such a good powerful book. And the other one I've reread a few times is the Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Again, I think these are more they're not engineering books, they're not industry specific, but it's very much working on yourself because I think if you actually focus inwards and work on that confidence and your own thoughts and mindset, then anything is possible. And Mel Robbins' podcast is also very, very good that I listen to regularly.
Speaker 1:Thank you and thank you so much for today and for giving us your time. Been fascinating speaking to you and hearing about your upbringing and your journey. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much Julia, it's been wonderful to be here.