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Join former CBC radio host Mark Connolly as he sits down with real estate insiders to bring you behind-the-scenes perspectives that answer your questions about home ownership.
With topics that matter whether you’re buying, selling, or staying put, this is the place to get the latest market updates for the Edmonton housing market, hear conversations about housing affordability, learn about mortgage options, and so much more.
Join us twice a month for episodes that cover local trends with context you won’t find in the national news, and get actionable insights that give you confidence for your next move.
The RAEdio podcast is presented by the REALTORS® Association of Edmonton.
Welcome to the RAEdio Podcast brought to you by RAE, the Realtors Association of Edmonton. So that's the RAEdio Podcast. We deliver easy to understand market insights, some homeowner tips, perspectives from industry experts so that you can feel informed and empowered wherever you are in your homeownership journey. Because better decisions start with better information.
Mark:Joining us on today's podcast is Kelly Keehn, financial educator and CEO of the Moneywise Institute, which focuses on financial education and homeownership. Hello, Kelly, and welcome.
Kelly:Hi, Mark. Great to be with you.
Mark:Yeah. It's good to see you again. We've known each other for a long time, talked about finances for a long time. But I think when it comes to homeownership, I mean, that's such a big investment for people and such a big part of their life. I'm sure in some ways, it's very complicated when you look at all the different financial implications of it.
Kelly:Yeah. Absolutely, Mark. And and we have known each other for a long time. I always love having conversation with you. Homeownership.
Kelly:My goodness. It is, you know, complex financially. It takes a lot of, you know, thought and planning, but it's really emotional as well because do you want homeownership for yourself? Is your family forcing you into it? Are you, maybe, you know, navigating a divorce or a death of of a spouse, and now homeownership has changed for you.
Kelly:So it's it's fluid too. Right? What what worked for you in in your younger years might not in your mid career, might not in your later years. So, you know, really glad to be having this conversation with you.
Mark:So when it comes to saving for a home, because that's where you really have to start. Right? And how many people have, you know, ready to pay cash for a house? They think about it. They start saving.
Mark:They're putting it away. Are there different strategies that you recommend, you know, based on the stage of life that you're in?
Kelly:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that that down payment can be really difficult. So now there's some some simple things that probably most experts and educators would suggest, which is, you know, the FHSA, which is a wonderful vehicle to look at. That is kind of a nice hybrid between the RSP.
Kelly:You're getting the tax deduction like you do with the RSP, but you get to take it out tax free, like your tax free savings account.
Mark:Right. What you know? What does that stand for? FH?
Kelly:The first home savings account. Thank you. Yes. The first home savings account. Fairly new.
Kelly:Just a couple years old, maybe three years old in Canada here. And interestingly enough, just about a half a million Canadians invested in the very first year. So definitely popular. You know, you can also augment with your tax free savings account, your TFSA. And you actually can use your RSP, your registered, you know, savings plan if you're a first time home buyer.
Kelly:You also there's a provision that you can take that money out of your RSP. Now we're getting into all kinds of acronym soup here. Yeah. Use CHAT GPT if if you need to kind of navigate all these tax, vehicles. But the the RSP, have to pay back to yourself.
Kelly:The FHSA, you do not. Same with the TFSA. So if this is all a little complex, that's where your mortgage broker, your banker, your financial planner can definitely help you. But I guess the message mark is is that there's a lot of different vehicles out there that you wanna check out that can help you with, you know, tax savings and grow that down payment a lot quicker.
Mark:So your individual situation might dictate which of those vehicles you might wanna use. Right? Because they're not all equal. There's differences.
Kelly:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It all depends. It depends to how long it's going to take you to save up for that down payment.
Kelly:Now remember, if you're looking at any of these vehicles as we sometimes call them tax shelters, think of it like a garage. Right? If it's the FHSA, if it's the, TFSA or the RSP, you still need to put cars in your garage. So what are what are those cars? Is it gonna be a GIC?
Kelly:Is it gonna be a high yield interest account? Is it gonna be a mutual fund, a TF or a a ETF, like something you're investing in the stock market? Just like you would outside of these vehicles, you can invest within them. Now generally speaking, if you're saving for a down payment, you probably don't wanna go into Bitcoin and the stock market and think but you may. It may take you a while.
Kelly:So this too is where you probably want a professional on your side to not just help you navigate what garage do I put my money into, but then what cars are going to most efficiently maximize your earnings while you're saving up for your down payment.
Mark:Alright. So let's talk about somebody who's thinking about buying a home, and they've gotta decide, is it worth it? Is it worth it for me to buy a house? Should I continue to rent? What are some financial signs they may be ready to purchase a home?
Mark:What kind of things should they think about?
Kelly:Yeah. You know, you need to step back. There's so many things to think about. Number one, I mean, I I'm biased to homeownership. I I bought my first little condo in Edmonton when I was 18.
Kelly:I could not afford it. 18. I had I mean, prices were a lot cheaper back then. I'm I'm 50 one but I couldn't afford it. But I had some help from family.
Kelly:I I actually bounced my first condo fee check because my legal fees were were not factored into my mortgage payment. And so when I, you know, borrowed the money from the bank, the legal fees were thousands of dollars afterwards and I I couldn't afford that. So it kind of led on this journey of being a little bit house poor in my twenties. So that's something too. You need to understand, you know, opportunity costs.
Kelly:If I'm putting money out for homeownership, what can I not do now? Maybe you can't take the family trips. Maybe you're not going to the concerts. You can't shop as much. Will you be able to afford your vehicle?
Kelly:Now so there's there's also you know, do you want homeownership? Some people are so desperate for homeownership, or they have that family pressure to get into a home, and mom and dad are actually helping with the down payment. Can you afford it right now? So if, Mark, you, you know, you've ticked all the boxes saying, I want to be a homeowner, Now you have to figure out is now the right time to be a homeowner? Is the right spot are you in the right spot?
Kelly:Are you like, well, you might live in Leduc, but you work in Saint Albert. And, you know, it's it's maybe more affordable to get a home in Leduc, but how happy are you gonna be in the middle of winter driving all the way to Saint Albert? You know? Right. Maybe you might wanna save up a little bit more to afford to be closer to where your work is.
Kelly:So there's so many factors that go into play. But, you know, also I look at, you know, especially during COVID, such an awful time none of us wanna go back to, but and and this is very different in different provinces, by the way. But depending on what province you're listening to this from, and probably from Alberta, you know, you have different rights as a homeowner that you don't as a renter. Now I'm not saying anyone would default or go into homeownership saying, well, what if I can't afford my mortgage payment? But what we learned during COVID is the banks and the financial institutions, if they're they're schedule one banks, not if it's private, that's very different.
Kelly:But if it's, you know, the big banks, generally they're gonna work with you if you've missed a few payments, especially if you've built up some equity. So you kinda actually have a little bit of buffer being a homeowner that you don't as a renter. A renter, now in Ontario, it's very different. Renters actually have a lot of rates here. But generally speaking, a renter, you know, if you can't come up with your rent payment, you you probably don't have a lot of options month two, and maybe even month one.
Kelly:So you're building equity, you're building wealth, it's for savings, you often feel different, but but the reality mark too for some younger folks that really don't know where they wanna live, what they wanna do, you know, where their career is going to take them, they might wanna take a little bit more time before they actually get into purchasing a home.
Mark:Right. I mean, if you're expecting that you might be moving somewhere in the next couple of years, that might not be a great time to buy. Because I would think that, you know, that those first few years when you got your house, you're trying to solidify everything, you're trying to I don't know, if you can, pay down your down payment as fast as you can. That's not a great it doesn't give you a lot of mobility.
Kelly:Yeah. It really doesn't. So if you're thinking that, you know, my nieces are both surgeons. They've moved to Australia. That wasn't really in their plan.
Kelly:My one niece has her her first property in Calgary that she's been lucky to have really good renters. When I sold my when I when I left, I couldn't sell my condo when I bought my house in my my twenties, and I did not have good renters. And I was not able to sell for a decent price. So, you know, some people will say, oh, you can always rent it. You can always sell a home.
Kelly:Yes and no. It depends where you are. That too is about choosing, you know, a home that has that resalability as well. That might be a little bit more expensive in a better neighborhood. Are you better to save up for that?
Kelly:But, yes, to your point, if you're not entirely sure, you know, can you come up with some creative things like co ownership with friends, with family where you're you don't know your situation, but you really maybe if that is something that's important to you is to get into the market, maybe that's something that you can figure out where you have someone to lean on that could pay the rent, that you could bring a roomie in with, that you wouldn't be forced to sell. So I think too, we have to dispel a lot of misconceptions that a lot of people, you know, especially a lot of young folks. Right? I'm never gonna be able to get in the housing market. It was so much more affordable for people like you and I, Mark.
Kelly:Well, actually really wasn't affordable for us. Yes. The affordability is is is quite terrible right now, but it was really tough back then too, remember. And and and people older than us were dealing with, you know, 18% mortgages. So, you know, that was a really difficult time and they and some people still made home ownership happen.
Kelly:So it can happen absolutely in any market. It's just, are you getting creative? Are you willing to sacrifice? And like I said, those opportunity costs, giving up things over here for home ownership, you you can't have it all.
Mark:You kinda touched on this at the beginning about how there's a certain psychology beyond just the numbers. Right? You're educator, but I'm sure when you're talking to people about these these finances, psychology does come into it. Right? And
Kelly:it's Yeah.
Mark:So when you're talking about a house, a house can be an investment, but it's also a home. So there's a lot going on there. Right?
Kelly:Absolutely. And I can speak from from current experience. So I have I I I work in Toronto, and I have my house and and my family in Edmonton. Now I'm renting in Toronto, and I'm waiting to buy. And this is the very first time in my life I've ever been a renter because I moved out when I was 18, and I bought a place, and I've always owned a home.
Kelly:And I thought, renting is fine. Like, I don't know what I'm doing here. I do wanna buy a place. It was number one. It was harder to rent than it was to approve for a mortgage.
Kelly:Wow. My credit score was phenomenal. My landlord was just like, he wanted to know my LinkedIn profile. He wanted to know who I was as a person, that I wasn't a drug dealer. Because in Ontario, it there's like some squatters rates, and it's hard to get renters out if if they're, you know, not paying their rent.
Kelly:So I get it. But also, you know, I'm month to month now because he didn't wanna renew the the lease, but it makes me nervous. Like, it makes me nervous at any point, my rent can go up. I could be displaced. I have to move.
Kelly:So I'm I'm accelerating my, shopping for a new home here and buying a place. And I mean, I'm still gonna be respectful to my place, but yes. Am I gonna repaint it? No. Because it's not my place, and I'm not gonna be here for probably another year.
Kelly:So there is something to, I guess, if that's been a family value of yours. A lot of my friends here in Toronto have immigrant roots, and it's essential for them and their kids to own a home because they've been displaced from their country.
Mark:Right.
Kelly:Right? So they need a piece of land. They need to know that when they're in Canada, they can't be kicked out. Now you still have taxes and you still have other things, you know, you defaulting on your mortgage. But there is a psychology to homeownership.
Kelly:But on the flip side, Mark, for the younger people I'm talking to, they see it as, you know, a dead horse dragging them behind them and potentially holding them back. So different cultures, different demographics, different family values, it is a very sensitive topic. And for some people, there's still the stigma of renting, you know. And and and then very lastly, putting on my financial hat, will you force yourself to save outside of your rent like you are forced to pay your mortgage? That is the question.
Kelly:That is where a lot of wealth has been built in for the average Canadian over the last twenty years has been built in their home equity. So are we gonna see prices increase like that over the next twenty years? Nobody has that crystal ball. But regardless if your home appreciates or not, it is for savings. So that is very helpful for a lot of Canadians.
Mark:Alright. Let's go back to somebody who has decided they do wanna buy a home. So they start by probably going to the bank and finding out, you know, maybe what they can afford. So what should they think about when the bank says they can afford this versus what they should actually spend?
Kelly:Absolutely. And and we can touch on it if you want. Some people are so desperate for homeownership that they're even willing to do the private lending, which is so much more expensive than the bank. And so first of all, if the bank says no, take that as you can't afford it yet. Right?
Kelly:That is don't I I would highly, you know, strongly urge you to be careful with a private lender. Not to say they're all bad. There's wonderful private lenders out there, but they don't have the stringency that the banks do to to take your home away. They can do it a lot quicker, like within a month or two. The banks cannot foreclose that quickly.
Kelly:So if the bank is giving you oodles of money and you're like, this seems like a lot more than I logically can afford regardless of what the numbers say, heed that. Because, you know, back in my days when I was a find in the financial industry and I I, you know, served very, very wealthy people in Edmonton. I remember being quite young at the bank and going to their homes. They lived in these big palatial mansions, not all of them, but some of them. And I would come in, Mark, and there was no furniture because they couldn't even afford to furnish it.
Kelly:So it looked amazing to their friends. They had the BMW. They had the luxury vehicles outside. They had the gorgeous address, and there was nothing in the house. So, you know, it it's all about those trade offs.
Kelly:And then what are you really willing to give up for that big of a house? You know, it's it it it so, yes, just because the bank is giving you that amount of money, if they are, you know, you need to use some common sense as well of what you're gonna have to give up, and and if it's worth it to to give those things up.
Mark:I know you often talk to people about, you know, the plans they might have, or you're you're trying to give them sort of the background of good financial habits that would lead to you being in good shape when you buy a home. What are some red flags that someone may be overextending themselves, and maybe they're not ready for home ownership, or they haven't really got to the true cost of everything?
Kelly:Yeah. Great question. I mean, maybe not red flags, but some some, you know, orange orange, you know, caution signs.
Mark:Caution.
Kelly:Yeah. Would be if you've got a lot of credit card debt, I'd be worried about that, especially if it's at twenty, twenty five, 29%, if you're missing any credit card payments, if you're using credit cards to get by, even if mom and dad have helped you with a big juicy down payment. And and that too, you know, when when we say, Mark, like, how would the bank give your last question, how would the bank give you more money than you could afford? Well, if your family's helping you out with that down payment to to get the affordability, you know, more favorable, you still might be struggling as an individual even though the bank's like, yeah, that looks great. Your parents came up with the 20% down and and you can get more of a house.
Kelly:You've gotta really figure that out. So the credit card debt, missing any payment, using credit cards or personal loans to get by, you know, what else would be some some red flags? Really having to give everything up. Like, if you literally are not gonna be able to do anything, no trips, no concerts, no lifestyle, everything is going to be poured into your home. Not a red flag, but a caution.
Kelly:I'd really, you know, caution you to think about it. As I said earlier, if you're having to move so far away from your friends and your work to a part of your city or a suburb to be able to afford a home, think about the lifestyle that you're going to have. And there's so many studies that show your commute and the shorter it is is definitely a predictor of happiness in your daily life. I think that's why so many people love working virtually as well. Right?
Kelly:There's no commute. So that long commute can be a real kiss of death for the happiness quotient. So those would be some of the the more obvious ones.
Mark:So if someone does get into a home, and once they own it, how should they think about home equity as part of their overall long term financial plan? And I'm thinking, you probably don't wanna think that's all you're doing, is putting everything into your house, but it is a part of I think as you think about the future, this is my biggest asset.
Kelly:Yeah. Absolutely. Such a great question. So because it's an asset, you know, in the financial planning world, usually the your principal residence is not an asset in the sense that you would sell it to fund your retirement. So you're always going to need to live somewhere.
Kelly:But it's also an asset because it's going to appreciate. So you might think of things like, what can I do to increase my asset? Renovate the kitchen, look at the landscaping. These are things you might need to save up for to increase your asset that then if later you're going to sell and downscale could really help. I was the host of a show years ago on the w network called Burn My Mortgage.
Kelly:And, Mark, I would be on the lawn telling these people, you know, you've got a $892,000 mortgage, and it's this interest rate, and it's, you know, a thirty five year amortization. You're gonna pay this much in interest. They'd be like, oh my god. Are you kidding me? And then they'd be like, could you be quiet?
Kelly:The neighbors are gonna find out. And I'm like, this is national TV. They are gonna find out. But what was shocking to me by the thirteenth episode and, you know, the crew would be grumbling like, you know, these banks and and they're like hoodwinking everyone and and these people don't even and I'm like, guys, they would have signed the mortgage document that showed exactly how much they would pay in interest. And then they initialed beside it, like, the banks didn't hoodwink them.
Kelly:They went in fully knowing this, but the reality is you're just so happy you got approved for the mortgage. You're so excited to get into your new home. You throw the mortgage document in a drawer and you never look at it again. So usually there's two different types of people, Mark. There's the person that says, I have to pay down the house no matter what.
Kelly:That is just instilled in them from their family, and you just pay it down, pay it down, pay it down. And what happens to that person a lot of times is they wake up and they're 50 or 60 or 70 and they're totally house poor. They have no RSPs. They have no investments. So now they either have to sell the house or do a reverse mortgage or something like that.
Kelly:Then there's the the people generally that are just oblivious and they just pay what their bank tells them is their monthly payment, and that's it. And they don't see that, oh, wow. They do calculation if I, like, did the lump sum payments once a year or I increased, you know, even just 10% a month. Like, I could I could take my twenty five year amortization down to fifteen years. Like, it's a working living kind of tool.
Kelly:And then just very lastly, I would like to say there's some that kind of abuse it a little bit, and the banks are a bit complicit in this, which are called, you know, readvanceable mortgages, where you've got a traditional mortgage, you're paying principal and interest, and then the bank has given you a line of credit, which is wonderful because now you can access some of the equity, you know, that you've got banked up. But if you are, you know, having that payment, every time you make a payment, it bumps up your line of credit more. You're allowed to take out more and more. Where some people and and I've done a lot of work with the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada, was warning people ten years ago, please don't use your house like an ATM.
Mark:Right.
Kelly:So as you're paying down the principal, but you're bumping up that line of credit, that is not serving you. You're actually in the same spot. So you don't wanna fool yourself with like, I'm paying down my mortgage, but your line of credit's going up. So you wanna make sure that you're in a tool and a mortgage and you and you've got, you know, yes, you've got that line of credit for an emergency, but that you're using it as an emergency, not to renovate the kitchen, not to go on holidays. I'm not saying I'm not judging you if you do that.
Kelly:But I'm just saying it's not a good financial strategy. That's all.
Mark:Well, leads us in really well into our next topic. And you covered a little bit of this, because I know when you look at your mortgage documents, it tells you on there what you can do, that you can, you know, double up a payment, or you can make a lump sum every certain amount of time, usually once a year. So where where do you land on strategies to pay off your mortgage early?
Kelly:Well, this is where you really wanna sit down with a qualified financial professional. It may be a fee only financial planner. So they don't charge you with, like, they don't, you don't need assets to go and see them. Right? Because a lot of people are like, well, maybe you just have a mortgage.
Kelly:You don't have any investment. So you pay these folks either an hourly fee or per plan, and they crunch all the numbers for you. They look at you and your spouse. They look at your income. Like, would you be better to go into an RSP, get the tax deduction, and then use the tax deduction to pay down on the mortgage?
Kelly:Or if you have other debt, you know, you gotta get that paid down because it's at 25%, maybe credit card debt, then here's a plan for paying down the mortgage. So there's no hard and fast. You should absolutely pay it down. You should absolutely increase the monthly amount. And again, your lifestyle mark.
Kelly:Maybe you're just like, I'm so happy to be in a house. I'm comfortable with the twenty five year amortization, and I still wanna have a life. Okay. Cool. Right?
Kelly:Like, you know, what makes financial sense doesn't necessarily make financial sense for your life. So you need to but you need to crunch the numbers. Your banker can do that for you too. You might wanna look at your pension. You might wanna just have a holistic view, like at least as a homeowner, at least once every five or ten years.
Kelly:It really, I am not one, so I'm not promoting them, but it really does make sense every five or ten years to sit down with a fee only financial planner or a planner you really trust or a banker or an adviser, someone who can crunch the numbers and get really detailed and doesn't have a bias towards what you do because it's that balance of paying down the house, but as I said, not being house poor and also living as we wanna do. So, you know, you you you've gotta see what makes most financial sense and then digest that and see where that makes sense for you and then revisit it. Maybe you have kids and now that's totally changed everything that you planned for a couple years ago. Maybe your parents are aging and you've gotta help them out with some some care. That's changed your financial plan.
Kelly:So remember, every time there's an event in your life, that definitely changes what you're doing. So if you're fast tracking the mortgage and all of a sudden you're feeling really stressed out about it, maybe it's time to adjust and come back in a few years when things have settled down. Kids are a little bit older, parents are taking care of, things of that sort.
Mark:Yeah. And I think all the things you talked about there, you know, when you consult with a financial planner, whether you're talking about your mortgage, might wanna do with it, invest in RRSPs, invest in something, vehicles outside your RSP to, you know, build your net worth and that sort of thing to make yourself more comfortable. All of this, I would think, comes down to what are you comfortable with, and how are you not being stretched? Because that that's the feeling people I think hate about money is they feel like, oh, I'm on the edge.
Kelly:Yeah. Absolutely. And I can I've seen it, Mark, where Yeah. You know, even things like they've got 50,000 in credit card debt, but they don't wanna take a line of credit because it affects the house. But they're gonna get it at prime or prime plus one.
Kelly:Right. And you're gonna have your credit card debt paid off, and they're like, but now I've got a line of credit against my house. And it's like, but and then I'll ask them, but so what is the problem here? And they're like, well, I'm terrified if I pay the credit cards off, I'll just rack them up again.
Mark:Right.
Kelly:So we play these games too with numbers. We play these games where we don't do the rational thing even though the numbers might dictate it. But it it is very personal.
Mark:Mhmm. And that's where financial education, the stuff that you do comes in so handy for people. Think, Kelly, you're really giving them a a sort of a something to lean on. When they understand it better, I think people will feel more comfortable with it and probably make the right decision for themselves.
Kelly:Yeah. Thanks, Mark. But you also gotta give yourself a break. You know? It's like Yeah.
Kelly:I I've got a lot of colleagues and friends that are bankruptcy trustees. And, you know, when I talk to them about why people are coming in to see them, you know, they're like, it's not always what people think. It's not that they were just spending like crazy, and they were irresponsible with their money. Something often happened in their life. There was a job loss, a sustained job loss that they couldn't find new work.
Kelly:Like I was mentioning, looking after family, there was, you know, a health diagnosis. Now they had to go and spend a $100,000 on on some kind of special cancer treatment for their kids. Like he said, it's so heartbreaking because most of the time, it's good people that were doing all the right things and just life happened. So Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly:If you're feeling stretched, give yourself a break. You know? Like, first of all, you're probably comparing yourself to the wrong people. They're probably not doing as well as you think. So please stop comparing yourself.
Kelly:And, yeah, if you're we're hey. It's like health. Right? Nobody just like rationally goes, I should do this much exercise. This is the food I should eat.
Kelly:This is and then like, you know, an economist, a rational person, we make the rational choice every day. We don't. We're fighting every day for our health, and we're fighting every day to make good financial decisions with the best information and education and knowledge that we have. And even when we have that mark, we're not making the best decisions. So if you're feeling stretched, give yourself a break.
Kelly:Get out of guilt and shame. Call someone up who's a professional to get some help because there's always a blind spot that you haven't thought of. Right? Like Right. Oh my god.
Kelly:Maybe, like, you've missed three months of mortgage payments and you think you have to go bankrupt. Maybe maybe an insolvency trap. Maybe you can rent out your basement. Maybe you can bring a roommate in. Maybe the bank will work with you and like, there's always some option.
Kelly:But my message and and and all of the time I've talked with you over the years is please don't suffer in silence if you owe money to CRA, if you can't make your payment on your mortgage. It whatever it is, being silent never solves anything. You don't need to go tell your friends. You don't need engage with professionals that can give you advice, tell you what the blind spots are, and now you've got information that you can act on.
Mark:Well, that's that's great advice I think that people can act on as well. So Kelly, we like to wrap up these interviews with this question, and you're kind of a special case because you have owned a number of different homes that are houses, and apartments, condos, that you made your home. So for you, what makes a house a home?
Kelly:Oh, that's a good question. Mark, I've been other than getting this place in Toronto the last eighteen months, I have literally been living in hotel rooms for twenty years on the road. So I what makes a place a home? You know, just I I know it sounds cliche, but just like little things. Right?
Kelly:Like, I I was just so happy to have a picture of my mom and my husband on the road that I would take out of my suitcase and little, you know, things that were familiar to me if it was a candle or or no, I don't I don't travel carry on because I I like little mementos and things like that. And it also teaches you that you don't need as much stuff as you think you do. You really don't. You can live on a lot less. But now that I do have my place in Toronto, what makes a house a home?
Kelly:Like, I I mean, my spices. I'm so grateful to have spices and to be able to cook here. Because, I mean, I didn't just travel to Toronto all over, but, you know, there there is something to having a place that you enter the door. You you know that it's yours if it's if it's rented or owned. And sometimes we forget how lucky we are to have a roof over our head and and to call it our own regardless if we own it or not.
Kelly:So, I think just the gratitude and and and the music that fills it and the people that we love that get to enjoy it and the food that we get to consume. I think all of that makes a home, but it can be very, very modest. It can be a a 400 square foot, hotel room, or it can be a a palatial mansion. It's it's where do you feel comfortable? And I challenge people, you know, to challenge their spaces because, you know, if you've always lived in a small space, go and see what big ones are.
Kelly:Maybe you're thinking too small. And if you've always been in a big space, you know, maybe try out one of these days living in something a little bit smaller and and seeing how that feels. Shake it up a little bit.
Mark:Oh, that's a great answer. No one's ever come up with the spices before, so I like that one. That's good. So we've been lucky to have Kelly Keehn with us. She's a financial educator and CEO of the Moneywise Institute.
Mark:Kelly, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate your time.
Kelly:Thank you, Mark. Great questions. Really enjoyed the conversation.
Mark:Doctor. KELLY: