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Welcome to The B2B CMO Podcast, a show for marketing executives who are redefining what it means to be a strategic leader. Join Jon Miller and Sydney Sloan every week as they talk with the very best Chief Marketing Officers who are navigating the modern marketing playbook and positioning themselves as strategic leaders.
Each episode, we unpack what it really takes to lead through complexity, earn trust at the strategy table, and shape the future of growth.
We’re building the community, research, and frameworks CMOs need to reclaim their strategic role and drive sustainable growth.
For more marketing leadership resources, visit [b2bcmoproject.com](http://b2bcmoproject.com/).
B2B CMO - 005 - Karl Van den Bergh
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[00:00:00]
Jon Miller: [00:00:05] [00:00:10] [00:00:15] [00:00:20] Welcome again to the B2B [00:00:25] CMO podcast. This is Jon Miller, and today I'm joined by my always [00:00:30] co-host Sydney Sloan, as well as our special guest, Karl Van den Bergh, who is the [00:00:35] CMO over at Illumio, uh, known as the world's first breach containment [00:00:40] platform, which we will talk about, uh, over the course of more than 25 years, Karl has held leadership [00:00:45] roles in marketing product as a GM in the cloud, analytics and cybersecurity businesses, [00:00:50] including SAP, Gigamon, Datastax, and TibCo to name a few. Karl, welcome. So [00:00:55] glad to have you here.
Karl Van den Bergh: Great to be here, Jon, and great to spend time with you and Sydney. Looking forward [00:01:00] to it.
Sydney Sloan: Excellent. Well, we'll just dive right in. Um, and it's a question that [00:01:05] we'd like to start with and getting to know you a little bit better. Um, and I, [00:01:10] when doing research was so excited to ask you this question 'cause you have such a unique story. [00:01:15] Um, so you grew up in Ireland, went to Trinity College and Physics, and then you got your [00:01:20] master's degree in computer science from Imperial College in London, and then a [00:01:25] humanities degree from the Uni University in Florence.
Sydney Sloan: And so. [00:01:30] We usually like to say, you know, tell your origin story, but I'm like, I want you to hit on all of those [00:01:35] parts
Sydney Sloan: of, uh, where did you come from?
Karl Van den Bergh: Yeah, exactly. I am a bit of a [00:01:40] mongrel as well. Growing up in Ireland with a last name Vandenberg at the time was [00:01:45] pretty unusual. Uh, so, and my first name is German, so I really have the worst Irish [00:01:50] name possible. Uh, but I am indeed Irish. I grew up in, in Dublin. Uh, my [00:01:55] dad was from Belgium. He moved over and met my mom, hence, uh, kind of growing up in [00:02:00] Ireland, but with a Flemish last name. Uh, and then, uh, as [00:02:05] you, as you just outlined, um, I do. Would love to travel. Uh, I still [00:02:10] do. Um, but I spent most of my life kind of working and [00:02:15] studying in different countries. And so the hard part for me was not moving and, [00:02:20] you know, discovering a new culture and make my way a new culture and, and, [00:02:25] and doing new things.
Karl Van den Bergh: The hard part for me is actually staying still. And so I have [00:02:30] now stayed still here in California for 20 plus years 'cause I have kids and they [00:02:35] keep you, you know, one place. Uh, and I'm loving it. But, uh, yeah, my [00:02:40] origin and, and kind of the, the, uh, the studies, uh, I am a [00:02:45] lifelong learner. Um, I think Jon and I have physics in common.
Karl Van den Bergh: I think it's a [00:02:50] fascinating science kind of between philosophy and, [00:02:55] and, and science sort of brings these things together. Um, and then, [00:03:00] um, but you know. Being a physicist wasn't my thing. And so I did [00:03:05] computer science, uh, and then just because I love learning, I went to Florence and did [00:03:10] humanities. Um, and we could talk a little bit more about that later.
Karl Van den Bergh: But yeah, that's, that's it. And then [00:03:15] I kinda moved over here to Silicon Valley, I said about 20 years ago, and being in tech and different [00:03:20] functions. Um, and now the CMO at limbo.
Jon Miller: [00:03:25] What do you think physics has taught you about marketing?
Sydney Sloan: [00:03:30] Or humanity? Just
Karl Van den Bergh: Yeah. All of all.
Karl Van den Bergh: So, uh, so look, I, [00:03:35] I, I, uh, and even at the other functions that, that I've run, I, I, I think [00:03:40] marketing is just a fascinating function. Um, it, it, it is so [00:03:45] broad and requires so many different disciplines from, again, like philosophy or [00:03:50] like understanding people to, to the math of it. Obviously the mechanics of it now, [00:03:55] the sort of, it is one of the most tech forward functions. Um, you have to [00:04:00] understand numbers of course. Uh, you have to, you have to be strategic. And so I think [00:04:05] physics for me was it, it definitely. Requires you to think deeply and we [00:04:10] were, you know, I was deep into quantum mechanics at the time and just makes you understand that [00:04:15] the world is not as you see it. It is, you know, very different from what your senses tell [00:04:20] you it is. And I think that kind of broadens the perspective on how [00:04:25] and, and living in different countries too, how you see other people, how you understand, [00:04:30] um, how they operate and they think is not how you necessarily operate and think, [00:04:35] um, especially learning in language, uh, gives you that like extra [00:04:40] dimension. Um, but yeah, I just look, I. I, I, I [00:04:45] loved the fact that physics really makes you think deeply, and I think I've applied that in, [00:04:50] in how I market.
Sydney Sloan: I've, I've often referred to it as, uh, as a head of marketing [00:04:55] or mark market, it tickles all parts of your brain, right? Like you go from one meeting where you're creative to the [00:05:00] next meeting where
Sydney Sloan: you're deeply analytical to then a messaging
Sydney Sloan: and then a
Sydney Sloan: strategy session, and then no [00:05:05] two days are ever the same.
Karl Van den Bergh: Which makes it really tough.
Karl Van den Bergh: So, which is why, you know, Jon and I talked about this [00:05:10] ratio. I, it's a ratio I use a lot to kind of help people understand why [00:05:15] CMO tenure is so low and, uh, and, [00:05:20] and you know, on the lowest of the functions because of the complexity of the role to the [00:05:25] appreciation and the appreciation in the sense of recognition. 'cause it [00:05:30] kind of falls between the cracks of product and sales often. And the understanding and the [00:05:35] understanding bit in particular. 'cause you know, we've all heard this and said this many times [00:05:40] before that because we're all exposed to marketing as consumers, we [00:05:45] think, or a lot of people think they understand marketing and in B2B tech [00:05:50] marketing is so broad and so complicated and evolving [00:05:55] so fast. That it makes it a really hard job to do. You have to be, as you said, Sydney, [00:06:00] left brain, right brain, which is not easy for any one person to do.
Sydney Sloan: [00:06:05] And I think, um, what we're trying to accomplish in the [00:06:10] B2B CMO project is to share these learnings of like, how do we remain [00:06:15] strategic? And I, I noticed that you call yourself a chief market officer. [00:06:20] Yay. I believe I share the same title. Um, and, and because I believe that [00:06:25] it is, um. You know, a different perspective, not the [00:06:30] act of marketing, but actually the impact of being a market leader. And I [00:06:35] would love for you to explain to our audience why, why do you have that title [00:06:40] and, and how do you define the role and your responsibility because it's not a chief [00:06:45] marketing role.
Karl Van den Bergh: Yeah, so. I, I, you know, I hope [00:06:50] and expect that more CMOs will, will adapt the, the market [00:06:55] versus marketing. Um, I think, you know, marketing obviously is the function, but really what is the [00:07:00] function or what are we trying to do? It is to shape the market and it's also to communicate [00:07:05] the needs of the market to the company.
Karl Van den Bergh: So it kind of goes bidirectionally and I [00:07:10] think shaping the market and shaping obviously, the company's [00:07:15] perception or positioning of the product positioning and offering in the market is the [00:07:20] primary responsibility. And so you have to operate at a [00:07:25] strategic level, and that means that you have to deploy all of the aspects of marketing from [00:07:30] brand and, you know, the awareness component all the way through to demand and enablement. [00:07:35] And so, um, yeah, for me it's, it's, uh, it's [00:07:40] also, you know, the unfortunate thing about being some, sometimes being the [00:07:45] kind of the marketing guy or gal is that customers [00:07:50] don't really want to meet with the marketing person. They wanna meet with the product [00:07:55] person. They have to know, meet with the sales person.
Karl Van den Bergh: So I find sometimes marketing gets [00:08:00] in the way of being able to, you know, get close to customers. [00:08:05] And so, um, you know, being chief market or chief strategy [00:08:10] officer often enables closer contact with the market.
Sydney Sloan: Hmm. Oh, that's [00:08:15] interesting. Uh, um, that's really interesting. I mean, 'cause my last two [00:08:20] stints have been in rev tech, so I, I ha I, that's why I've enjoyed it. And I also [00:08:25] did a stint in security where, you know, I didn't have much to say to a CISO I could listen, [00:08:30] um, because I wasn't yet an expert in that area.
Sydney Sloan: I know you've gone deeply in cyber, so I can [00:08:35] imagine your level of expertise. Um, but one, one of the other questions I kind of wanted to touch [00:08:40] on before Jon picks up it was, it is The first finding in our research, which [00:08:45] was this ability to have influence was a direct correlation to [00:08:50] how you develop relationships across the C-suite. And in the idea of [00:08:55] this chief market officer role, do you think it changes how [00:09:00] you build relationships with the C-Suite or do you do it the same way as you've done before? [00:09:05] Um,
Sydney Sloan: just
Karl Van den Bergh: I, I started as Chief Marketing Officer and I was one, Hey, I, [00:09:10] I need to change a title. So, so that was the thing that we, we [00:09:15] started, uh, when, you know, during my tenure here, but, , the C-suite and building [00:09:20] those relationships and the understanding of marketing, uh, and the function, [00:09:25] uh, and value of marketing is one of the primary responsibilities of the CMO. I [00:09:30] call it the CMO tax. Uh, simply because it's not just [00:09:35] obviously the peers and the board, but it is something that we have to understand because of [00:09:40] that low RA ratio that I, I talked about high ratio because of the complexity depreciation. [00:09:45] A lot of what we need to do in order to be effective [00:09:50] ultimately is to educate, evangelize, and to kind of bring the C-suite and the board along the, [00:09:55] uh, the journey. And so, you know, the things that, uh, [00:10:00] and you know, a little bit of a playbook I've developed that, that I've found helpful in, in [00:10:05] doing that is, is one, you know, speak in a language. They understand and they do [00:10:10] understand numbers, they understand sales. I mean, you know, generally speaking. [00:10:15] And so often what I will, I will do is I will start [00:10:20] with the things they understand.
Karl Van den Bergh: So they care about pipeline, the contribution to bookings and how all [00:10:25] of that, you know, um, the kind of the, the very [00:10:30] practical, ROI, right? Our invested dollar here. Here's the, [00:10:35] the, the pipeline and here's the bookings. You know, I don't get into top of the funnel too much because [00:10:40] again, that's sort of can be vanity metrics or it can be something that really. They [00:10:45] don't appreciate. So it's more about pipeline bookings. And then once you've [00:10:50] built a and, and we, the way I run marketing and the way I [00:10:55] talk about marketing with the, the executive team and the board is off is very [00:11:00] like sales, which is, I say we have a target, I have an over assignment of [00:11:05] target to my team.
Karl Van den Bergh: So my team's targeted just like sales over signs. And then [00:11:10] we obviously have, I have a forecast too, so I forecast, [00:11:15] uh, and then, you know, we obviously report out. So, and then in order to be able [00:11:20] to go and do the other things that are very strategic and important to marketing. [00:11:25] I need to build a little bit of predictability that I'm gonna deliver on what I've committed [00:11:30] to.
Karl Van den Bergh: And so we do, we do this and there's, there's ways to do that, um, that we could talk about, but [00:11:35] basically build that predictability. They understand the numbers, [00:11:40] they understand I'm delivering. And then I can talk about the bigger picture, and [00:11:45] that's super important to me. The bigger picture. I know, Jon, you're, you're all over this one, but [00:11:50] the bigger picture, the story, the awareness, you know, marketing [00:11:55] to all those people who are not currently in market, which is most of 'em, is super, [00:12:00] super important.
Jon Miller: Well, and they just go say so hand in hand, right? You, you can't really [00:12:05] generate the pipeline if you haven't built the category and the brand position
Karl Van den Bergh: [00:12:10] correct.
Jon Miller: that kinda stuff. And like, I think that's something that you've done that to me is really [00:12:15] interesting at Illumio. So, you know, you, I'll let you tell a story, but you were [00:12:20] very methodical about defining the category, uh, that you're going in [00:12:25] and, and, and why you're going after that category and how you are [00:12:30] evangelizing the category, not just your position. Um, [00:12:35] and then ultimately how you're measuring that. So I, it was really insightful. So maybe you [00:12:40]
Jon Miller: tell us about
Karl Van den Bergh: first of all, advice to all CMOs out there do not create a category [00:12:45] unless you absolutely have to because
Karl Van den Bergh: it,
Sydney Sloan: So
Karl Van den Bergh: it is [00:12:50] so hard.
Karl Van den Bergh: It, and it's not just about the character. It's like, it's like now [00:12:55] we've gone through a couple of evolutions, uh as a company, I've been here for a year plus, [00:13:00] but the company has, has, you know, been around for, for 10 years and I believe [00:13:05] this is one of those companies where it's such an inflection point that's gonna be the overnight [00:13:10] success that took 10 years, which many great things do. Um. But for [00:13:15] the, for the category, for the, for length of the company, it really was kind of the microsegmentation or zero trust [00:13:20] segmentation company. And, and that was a long, hard slog [00:13:25] because again, back in the day, no one was like, what's microsegmentation? What's [00:13:30] segmentation? Why do I need it? I have all of these firewalls.
Karl Van den Bergh: Why do I need this other thing? Right? And it's [00:13:35] getting the hardest thing to change. Inside a [00:13:40] company in the market, in any endeavor, as you note, are human beings, humans, [00:13:45] we take a long time to change our minds, and that's essentially what defining a category is. You've [00:13:50] got to get, like you've gotta squeeze in your. [00:13:55] Category or your product or your offering or a solution [00:14:00] into the way that they normally do business. And so that's really hard. But the, the [00:14:05] change that we went through over the last year was, whereas that first part was really about defining the [00:14:10] technology, which any start startup will do, right? They'll anchor their positioning to a [00:14:15] technology. Or a new way of doing things, which was segmentation and microsegmentation. And [00:14:20] for the audience that maybe doesn't know what that means, it basically just means when you've got your network, you [00:14:25] wanna break up your network, segment it so that when you have a [00:14:30] cyber attack and they are successful in getting in, which by the way now. [00:14:35] Absolutely guaranteed. With ai, they're gonna get in. You need to [00:14:40] basically segment off your high value assets, your customer data, et cetera, so that they can't get to those [00:14:45] assets. It's like basically having a safe in your house. Yes, you wanna have locks in your doors and windows, your [00:14:50] perimeter security, but once they get in, you want to have your jewelry and a safe, and that's what [00:14:55] we are.
Karl Van den Bergh: We're kind of the safe for your. Your high value assets inside an organization, so they [00:15:00] can't do any damage. But that was where the company was positioned. What we've done [00:15:05] now, 'cause that's, I would say a technology-based definition of the market in category. [00:15:10] What we've done now is moved to a value-based, so we are now the Breach containment [00:15:15] company. So our value is, whereas most of the industry, I'd say [00:15:20] 99% of cyber is about stopping breaches. [00:15:25] Our positioning is breaches are inevitable. They will happen. Mythos, [00:15:30] if you've heard about the whole debacle about mythos, makes that very clear [00:15:35] that they will happen. They cyber, uh, attacks will, uh, be [00:15:40] successful.
Karl Van den Bergh: They will get in and we are the ones that are focusing on containing the [00:15:45] breach so it doesn't become a disaster. And that breach containment, [00:15:50] contain the breach, which is kind of our, our tagline, has provided [00:15:55] tremendous benefit 'cause it really crystallizes the value and the differentiation very quickly [00:16:00] for what we do versus the 500 other cyber vendors out there.
Jon Miller: [00:16:05] Can you talk, like, can you talk about how did you kind of bring the company along to [00:16:10] get to that outcome? You know, how did you convince your fellow peers? Then how did you make [00:16:15] the investments to actually start to communicate this?
Karl Van den Bergh: [00:16:20] So, you know, some of this work is already, I would say, underway as a, as a [00:16:25] campaign. There was a, uh, uh, some, the, the, the corporate marketing team [00:16:30] had started, uh, an effort when I was on board, uh, to think [00:16:35] about how do we, what's a campaign that we can. You know, [00:16:40] show the value of what we do. Right. So, um, so some of this is already [00:16:45] underway, and when, when, uh, I, I, I had felt [00:16:50] coming to Illumio, I knew about the company for some time.
Karl Van den Bergh: I felt it was a, a [00:16:55] diamond in the rough. I felt that we weren't yet communicating clearly to the market what [00:17:00] is the real impact of this technology. And so. [00:17:05] What we did was we tested out this, you know, campaign, um, [00:17:10] and it was really an awareness campaign. We did some stuff in Forbes and some other [00:17:15] venues, and we started to see, you know, positive feedback or [00:17:20] hear positive feedback.
Karl Van den Bergh: So it was kind of a test at first. And then, um, [00:17:25] internally, you know, obviously talking with the CEO, we we're, we're lucky that we [00:17:30] have a founder who's still in seat as the CEO. So CEO founder, [00:17:35] um, understood the value and, and that the [00:17:40] time is right to change the positioning. Um, so there was very, actually [00:17:45] not a lot of resistance.
Karl Van den Bergh: Jon, I think it was a pretty seamless [00:17:50] because. He understood that this was a great way [00:17:55] to crystallize the value of what we do. Um, and so yeah, so [00:18:00] that was it. We launched it. We, we have a brand awareness tracker, [00:18:05] um, that we started, I guess probably I've been here coming up on [00:18:10] one and a half years, so about six months before I started.
Karl Van den Bergh: So it was great to have this [00:18:15] baseline before we started. Uh, and we, we survey about a [00:18:20] thousand. We have, uh, an agency does this, uh, a thousand security [00:18:25] professionals in different geos where we operate around the globe. [00:18:30] And, um, we had that as a baseline. We put in place these, [00:18:35] this new positioning, we push it out, RSAC, which is a big cybersecurity conference in San [00:18:40] Francisco. And then we, we've seen an incredible [00:18:45] growth, and I wouldn't put it down just to this obviously, but it's this of many things. [00:18:50] In 18, 24 months, now, we just did our last one. [00:18:55] We have grown nearly four x in unaided awareness. Unaided awareness [00:19:00] means, who do you think of when you think of, you know, segmentation, which is unheard of [00:19:05] and I think it's a function of yes, how well the team is, is operating, but it's [00:19:10] also, as I mentioned, that the market is coming to us.
Karl Van den Bergh: The market really has kind of hit an [00:19:15] inflection point. So both of those things
Karl Van den Bergh: have come together.
Jon Miller: How have, how have you been able [00:19:20] to convince the CFO that that [00:19:25] metric matters as much as the pipeline metric does and is therefore worthy [00:19:30] of investment?
Karl Van den Bergh: Yes. And in fact, um, and I'll give credit, shout out to my [00:19:35] CFO and CEO. Uh. That is, uh, Anup, [00:19:40] our CFO and Andrew, our CEO, um, I, I wanna say they're pretty enlightened, [00:19:45] uh, uh, C-level executives. Um, I actually went back, [00:19:50] we had closed our a OP, you know, and we have a healthy marketing budget at, [00:19:55] um, at Illumio. Um, and I actually went back and I said at the beginning of the year, I think we [00:20:00] need to double down and do even more on awareness. So this is when we kind [00:20:05] of closed the books and I came back and basically asked for a 50%, five 0% [00:20:10] increase in awareness. Um, because I, I said, I feel like the time is [00:20:15] right for us to double down and it, it, it, you know, we could talk about. [00:20:20] The Mythos thing and what we had already in place, and it was nearly like we had [00:20:25] anticipated that happening. But, um, so how, how, [00:20:30] how do I convince the CFO? Um, it comes down to, and I've used this [00:20:35] concept and written about this concept before, um, uh, a return on [00:20:40] objectives as opposed to ROI return on investment. And, [00:20:45] um, all that means is that yes, ultimately I believe as [00:20:50] you do, Jon, this thing translates to pipeline and to bookings. Uh, [00:20:55] and the, the sellers, you know, always. Appreciate the fact that we're a [00:21:00] known entity when they're going into prospect. Um, but beyond that, how do you [00:21:05] measure the impact? Well, we have shorter term metrics, which is, I will [00:21:10] say, for this particular investment, whether it be, I don't know, um. [00:21:15] Like an ABX, digital ABM to, to our target, um, uh, [00:21:20] our target accounts.
Karl Van den Bergh: So we obviously wanna target as much as we can. Uh, the goal [00:21:25] is to raise awareness within a certain persona within those target [00:21:30] accounts. And then we have metrics that tell us, you know, are they engaging? Are they coming to our [00:21:35] website? Are they downloading material? So these are not ultimately [00:21:40] pipeline, they are awareness, but at least we understand the investment we're making.
Karl Van den Bergh: And I [00:21:45] want to know how you're doing relative to industry benchmark. Because, you [00:21:50] know, in, in, in isolation it's hard to know is this good or bad? So I always show, here's how [00:21:55] we do, here's how our we're performing relative to, to benchmark, and then [00:22:00] helping understand the strategy for me is explain the strategy of awareness [00:22:05] and the strategy.
Karl Van den Bergh: Awareness is, as you know, you said, uh, Jon many times, which is [00:22:10] at any one time you've got 5% that are in market. Great. [00:22:15] Okay, those 95% that don't yet aren't yet thinking about your [00:22:20] problem space. What you want to make sure is that when they do come around to thinking about your [00:22:25] problem space, that you are top of mind. 'cause you wanna be on a shortlist. Because by the [00:22:30] time you actually, 'cause if you're not on the shortlist, you're basically [00:22:35] screwed. if for some reason they get into you, you get into a sales cycle, but you're, you weren't on the [00:22:40] original shortlist, you might be just there for, I dunno, price compression with their [00:22:45] existing, um, highest prospect or, uh, top vendor. [00:22:50] You wanna be on the short list. And so my goal is to [00:22:55] generate, get us on the short list, always top of mind when they're ready, number one. [00:23:00] Number two, I want to generate more segmentation projects. [00:23:05] So hence you talked about earlier, Jon, it's not just about Illumio [00:23:10] Illumio, it's about why do you need segmentation in a post Mythos world? [00:23:15] Why do you need breach containment in a post Mythos world? Nothing to do with illumio, right? I [00:23:20] do generally believe it is absolutely critical to get a breach containment [00:23:25] strategy and platform in place. If it's not illumio, I'm okay with that. [00:23:30] But I, I've a, we've a pretty good shot at being on that short [00:23:35] list just given where we are in the market.
Sydney Sloan: how much of, in the last year and a half. So you started [00:23:40] this before the rapid change of buyer research [00:23:45] on LLMs. Um, I I am, I am pretty self-assured that your [00:23:50] personas are on LLMs
Sydney Sloan: researching, uh, their breach strategy. So [00:23:55] how have you tackled that as it relates to AEO-GEO and what measurement are you [00:24:00] using?
Sydney Sloan: Is that in the same metrics conversation as awareness or are you treating it [00:24:05] differently?
Karl Van den Bergh: I'm very, very focused on this one. Uh, but it, it doesn't make it all the way up to, [00:24:10] you know, the executive team or, or the board, but, um, uh, obviously, [00:24:15] um, that is, that is the world that we live in and that's where you want to be showing [00:24:20] up. So we've, we've in invested in a number of tools that help us track [00:24:25] where we show up in terms of people, what are people searching for in the [00:24:30] LLMs and how do you rank, you know, relative to the things that we care about? Um, [00:24:35] and, what we know, at least what I know and, you know, would love to know additional [00:24:40] thoughts here because, you know, definitely still learning is, [00:24:45] um. The importance of, back to what we said about [00:24:50] awareness, uh, the important in order to show up well on LLM, you've gotta be on [00:24:55] credible sites, third party, you know, you gotta be in peer [00:25:00] reviews sites. So the community is an important source. So whether it be, you know, [00:25:05] Reddit or G2, that's I think where you were Sydney, right? Um, [00:25:10] or Gartner Peer Insights or your own community, right? So that's one important source. [00:25:15] The other is, if you are on, are in, you know, credible, [00:25:20] uh, online publications like Forbes or Wall Street Journal or wherever your, you know, [00:25:25] your, uh, your audience hangs out. Um, and then obviously having [00:25:30] very high value content, uh, that's available and credible. All of that [00:25:35] feeds into where you get positioned in the LLM. So the, I I told, [00:25:40] this is a while back, I told the PR team, the AR team, [00:25:45] um, and, the community team. You guys need to all [00:25:50] work really closely with your our AEO-SEO person [00:25:55] um, uh, to make sure that, uh, you guys are all [00:26:00] coordinated because this thing is gonna have a huge impact on how we show up.
Sydney Sloan: And I think that, um, 'cause [00:26:05] I do talk about AEO a lot. The, the key. Which you touched on a little bit is [00:26:10] understanding all the questions your personas are asking, not just when they're in the buying cycle. And that's how you build [00:26:15] brand in the LLM era is like, as you, you, you said it, I'm just calling it [00:26:20] back out,
Sydney Sloan: for our audiences, I wanna be the answer. I actually don't care if, you [00:26:25] know, if they pick Illumio, I want them to get the right answer. So if you're focused on those questions, [00:26:30] then you become that brand influence.
Karl Van den Bergh: and there's some really cool tools out there now. We have like a whole [00:26:35] bunch of tools that, um, that we, we've acquired that now,
Sydney Sloan: You can shout em out if you [00:26:40] want. I'm like, we're all in this learning together. This is the, the point of this community and the podcast. Like, what's working [00:26:45] for you?
Karl Van den Bergh: the traditional ones we had like SEMrush, uh, which, uh, [00:26:50] you know, we, we've been used as, as being very good tool. There's a new one, Profound. I [00:26:55] think that's awesome. That tool, right? It's at least
Karl Van den Bergh: it's, it's it
Sydney Sloan: Yeah, that's, it. Shows you all your [00:27:00] prompt citation, source, share of
Sydney Sloan: answer,
Karl Van den Bergh: Yeah. And then it generates content for you. It shows where [00:27:05] you're relative to your competitors.
Karl Van den Bergh: So, uh,
Sydney Sloan: They're a leader on G2. So you're, you picked the [00:27:10] right one. Yeah,
Karl Van den Bergh: Oh, okay. All right. There. You're team did a good job. I had nothing to do with the pick of it. They said, [00:27:15] here we have this new tool. I said, awesome. Show me
Karl Van den Bergh: how it works. And I was like, wow, this is really [00:27:20] cool. Yeah.
Jon Miller: Illumio often picks, uh, good tools. I know this. [00:27:25] Um,
Karl Van den Bergh: biased, Jon, I think. Yeah.
Jon Miller: um, [00:27:30] before we, before we wrap up, I think, you know, I know from our, from our prior conversations [00:27:35] that another one of the changes you've brought to the team is sort of a move towards account based metrics [00:27:40] and, and really trying to evolve your marketing that way.
Jon Miller: Any lessons learned from that?
Karl Van den Bergh: [00:27:45] I, Jon, I, we've talked for some time about this one. [00:27:50] This one is super important, but boy is it hard. Uh, and simply because [00:27:55] our whole systems, tools, [00:28:00] methodology, mindset has been, you know, lead based for so long and like trying to [00:28:05] move to true account based marketing. Um, [00:28:10] is, is a long, long journey. Um. I think the bits that [00:28:15] we, the bit, the bits that, um, that I think we've gotten right [00:28:20] and have been very effective is, is the account-based tiering model. Um, [00:28:25] my last company, we built it with our in-house data scientists and ml, [00:28:30] um, uh, this, this, this go round. We've, we've [00:28:35] largely derived it worked up with six sense to build it. Um, [00:28:40] but the, the goal is always the same is using the data. To determine, you know, [00:28:45] what are the accounts that the sales team should be focused on. And, um, that [00:28:50] has been super effective in that we are religious about this, which is I [00:28:55] will. Look, we'll look to the data. We'll tier the accounts and we [00:29:00] use, you know, all dimensions from, uh, ideal customer profile to intent [00:29:05] to engagement, right? Mix all those together. Um, and we have [00:29:10] systematically seen that, you know, the tier one or [00:29:15] tier top tier. Outperform in terms of conversion to bookings, [00:29:20] conversion to opportunities, deal size, and so I've been absolutely [00:29:25] religious about we are not going to fund, we're, we're like [00:29:30] marketing. We're gonna focus on these tiers. And I want, I need sales [00:29:35] and partners, everyone to be aligned on the same accounts because [00:29:40] otherwise we're just, there's no point in marketing spending money on an account that sales is not gonna be focused on [00:29:45] right now. There could be accounts outside of what we're focused on, but set. I need 70% [00:29:50] plus overlap between the three Go-To-Market functions, and that has been very, very effective. [00:29:55] That piece. Yes. What I don't have yet, and Jon, I'm looking to you [00:30:00] to fix this. Uh, what I don't have yet is being able to, within [00:30:05] accounts, identify the buying groups easily. We, [00:30:10] we've got a kind of way that we are doing it now, uh, with, um, [00:30:15] you know, we have a methodology with six sense to, we kind of do, it's a little [00:30:20] bit manual, but what I want is I want to be able to see. Like within one [00:30:25] account, a lot of our customers are large. We have maybe four buying groups. There are different [00:30:30] stages. I wanna color code them different. I want different tactics applied to different buying groups. [00:30:35] That's the Nirvana that I'm looking for, and we're not quite there yet.
Jon Miller: It's hard to, it's hard to [00:30:40] get there with the legacy technology. No doubt about
Karl Van den Bergh: Very hard. Yeah.
Jon Miller: Yeah. So let's, uh, let, let's [00:30:45] wrap up with some fun facts.
Sydney Sloan: yeah, so we, we, you know, like this is [00:30:50] hard these days, you know, like our jobs have
Sydney Sloan: not gotten
Sydney Sloan: easier. They definitely have [00:30:55] gotten
Karl Van den Bergh: I love my job, by the way. I, it's, I think it, it's, I, I think it's, [00:31:00] it can be the worst job in the world and it can be the best job in the
Sydney Sloan: Okay. So, uh, we [00:31:05] like to end with fun inspiring questions and I would love for you, like [00:31:10] we talk about, like what do you do outside of work, but even, I wanna take that one step further with you. It's like, where do you [00:31:15] find your inspiration
Sydney Sloan: as well? You have such a interesting, diverse kind of [00:31:20] background, so not just your five to nine, but like, what, what is, where is the inspiration [00:31:25] also where you
Sydney Sloan: tap into.
Karl Van den Bergh: Yeah. Look, I, I, goodness, [00:31:30] I'd say at heart I'm a philosopher. That's probably so [00:31:35] one thing I, it's not on my resume, but I was. Uh, a monk [00:31:40] for five years.
Karl Van den Bergh: So that was, that was part of my, [00:31:45] my trip in Italy. Uh, I kind of went down that path, which is [00:31:50] fantastic. I was part of the Catholic church and I was, I was a monk. Um, [00:31:55] and so I I said, I like, I like to think deeply. [00:32:00] I love beauty in all its forms, you know, whether it be art. I have lots of art in my house. I [00:32:05] love amazing food. I love to travel. Um, I, I, [00:32:10] I, I told you I'm kind of a lifelong learner [00:32:15] and, um, my inspiration comes from. [00:32:20] Yeah, just, just finding, uh, the, [00:32:25] and working on happiness. Uh, uh, finding joy in life. I [00:32:30] wasn't always, uh, as, as happy, I must say, very, [00:32:35] uh, doing very well today, but I wasn't always this way. One of the side effects of [00:32:40] having, uh, you know, doing a lot of thinking is you can sometimes work yourself, [00:32:45] work yourself into, into a bit of a mess, which, which I did quite, uh, [00:32:50] successfully when I was younger. But fortunately, I've kind of, uh, figured things out. [00:32:55] Um, so yeah, I, I, I get inspired. I, I have now also a [00:33:00] 4-year-old and she definitely inspires me every day. Uh, and, [00:33:05] uh, just seeing her quotes graduate from preschool yesterday, it was [00:33:10] hilarious. But they did ion for, from preschool, so lots of different places.[00:33:15]
Karl Van den Bergh: Sydney, I guess, uh.
Sydney Sloan: Well, I, it, it's, you know, the childhood [00:33:20] joy maybe is connecting to the joy that you're also feeling as, as being a parent as well. And you can [00:33:25] like tap into that and just look at this, the joy from the simplest, uh, and most pure. Pure [00:33:30] part, which is our children. Um, the the last thing that we like to, to give you the opportunity to [00:33:35] do is share gratitude.
Sydney Sloan: They, we don't get here on our own. Um, and so if you wanted [00:33:40] to, uh, shout out, uh, a couple folks that have helped you along the way, we'll we'll be sure to [00:33:45] mention that in the
Sydney Sloan: notes. Yeah.
Karl Van den Bergh: I'll start with my dad. He's no longer with us, but [00:33:50] definitely an inspiration. Tough man. When I was growing up, I kind of left Ireland apart to get [00:33:55] away from him. We became very close friends over the last 10 years. Uh, he was [00:34:00] alive and, um, he, uh, uh, he was an [00:34:05] entrepreneur, obviously came from a different country, uh, as we talked about, and, um, [00:34:10] was very, very, uh kind of driven, [00:34:15] high integrity, uh, and very, very, uh, [00:34:20] wise at, at the end of his life, man. So, definitely huge influence. Um, in terms [00:34:25] of bosses, I guess I'll put a boss on there. Uh, I, [00:34:30] I, my, uh, uh, Brian Gentile, who is the CEO [00:34:35] of Jaspersoft, where, where I was, uh, for a while, fantastic [00:34:40] individual, great human being.
Karl Van den Bergh: He got me really focused on. [00:34:45] Organizational and the importance of people and management and Patrick Lencioni's [00:34:50] kind of books. Um, and, uh, he was, he was fantastic. [00:34:55] And then I, I have to do a shout out to my current team. I think we [00:35:00] just had our QBR yesterday. This team is on fire and so I, I'll [00:35:05] name my leaders 'cause they, they listen to these podcasts sometimes. Uh, Ryan Ragu [00:35:10] and Rick. Uh, the three Rs, uh, um, uh, [00:35:15] are doing a fantastic job.
Sydney Sloan: Excellent. Excellent. Well, uh, this has been a [00:35:20] power packed podcast. I will say, um, we covered a lot of ground and [00:35:25] it touches a lot on the research and findings, but for me, what I took away here [00:35:30] in in your playbook as you, as you mentioned, is the first, the first thing that we need to [00:35:35] do to be strategic CMOs is to speak in the language that your board and leadership understands.
Sydney Sloan: [00:35:40] So starting with pipeline ROI and bookings and not really talking about the [00:35:45] metrics that marketing manages around top of the funnel and some of things that could be perceived as vanity. [00:35:50] We, we know it's important, but, um, but we can keep that amongst ourselves. Um, I [00:35:55] liked, and I haven't heard a lot of, um, you know, you were talking about [00:36:00] predictability, so you talk about your target plus over assignment.
Sydney Sloan: I don't think a lot of CMOs [00:36:05] actually play the same way sales does. And actually over assigning the quotas with our pipeline [00:36:10] numbers as well, and, and having that forecast and managing it like sales does to [00:36:15] get the predictability, which ultimately gets the trust. Uh, and so [00:36:20] once you have that and you're predictable, then you can work on the bigger picture.
Sydney Sloan: Things like the story awareness and brand [00:36:25] building, which you've done a phenomenal job of doing highlighting. You went back after the fact [00:36:30] and asked for 50% more. And delivered four x growth on [00:36:35] your awareness, which you track, um, on. Just awesome. Just wow. 'cause people [00:36:40] need to listen to that. And then the last thing I took away is this idea of return on objective [00:36:45] versus return on investment. And, you know, how do you make sure that you're a known entity? [00:36:50] That you have engagement metrics and you're tracking those against industry benchmarks to show the [00:36:55] proof of the value of that investment, which the objective is to be known. [00:37:00] So when your salespeople engage with an account, they already know who Illumio is.
Sydney Sloan: And that's, that's the job [00:37:05] of our teams as marketing teams. So I just wanna thank you for those [00:37:10] amazing tidbits, uh, and getting to know you too as a
Sydney Sloan: person. It was joyful.
Karl Van den Bergh: Great to meet [00:37:15] you Sydney. And uh, great to reconnect Jon as always. And. [00:37:20] Um, yeah, so happy to do this any other time. I know you got lots of, uh, guests I'm [00:37:25] sure lining up. But, uh, and I'm, I, I look forward to continuing this important mission [00:37:30] of helping B2B CMOs and, and forgotten [00:37:35] population sometimes.
Karl Van den Bergh: So I'm glad we're putting a,
Karl Van den Bergh: uh, something [00:37:40] together to help.
Sydney Sloan: Awesome. Thank you. Well, if you like what you heard today, please make sure that [00:37:45] you, uh, come over to the b2b CMO project.com. You can [00:37:50] find our research, our podcasts, more like these conversations with Karl. Um, [00:37:55] and, uh, get involved in the community. If you're an enterprise, B2B CMO, we want you to be [00:38:00] involved.
Sydney Sloan: We wanna learn together, share together, and, uh, this is our mission. So [00:38:05] thanks everybody. Have a fantastic day.
Thanks for listening to the [00:38:10] B2B CMO podcast. Head on over to b2b CMO project.com for [00:38:15] more episodes, plus the latest research and framework CMOs need, not [00:38:20] just to survive but actually thrive as AI in the new playbook reshape how we Go-To-Market. [00:38:25] And if this episode sparks something for you, please follow the show.
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