Cheers & Tiers: Design Leadership Tales Retold

Before they were design royalty, Debbie Millman and Michael Bierut both remember what it felt like to be on the outside. Debbie got kicked out of an AIGA special interest group for doing work that was “too commercial.” Michael, working at one of design’s most prestigious studios, felt like a dinosaur compared to the experimental West Coast crowd.

In the late 1990s, before you could connect with designers online, AIGA was the only game in town. And getting seated next to the right person at a leadership dinner could change everything.

This is the story of how two people who didn’t quite fit in helped transform AIGA from an exclusive club into something more like a real community—one email, one dinner, one “yes” at a time.

Key Takeaways
  • AIGA retreats were the only channel: Before digital, sitting next to the right person at dinner could change your career.
  • Both sides felt excluded: Too experimental and too commercial designers have been shut out by AIGA—sometimes at the same time
  • Getting kicked out taught inclusion: Being told her work was too commercial shaped how Debbie led as president.
  • Leadership means making space: Especially for people who feel like outsiders.
  • Saying yes builds community: To emails, invitations, and people who aren’t in the club.
  • AIGA survived by embracing change: Desktop publishing, the internet, social media—every threat became an evolution.

Key Moments in This Episode

03:08 – The dinner that changed everything: Debbie sits next to Michael at the Baltimore leadership retreat
11:06 – Why that first dinner mattered: AIGA felt elitist, and the warmth of one conversation shifted everything
12:33 – The evolution question: Milton Glaser voices what democratizing AIGA will mean for the organization's identity
18:46 – Getting kicked out: Debbie is removed from the brand experience group for being too commercial
27:59 – AIGA’s impact on career: Both credit the organization as essential to their success
30:12 – Before digital connection existed: AIGA was the only way designers could meet each other
49:23 – Leadership advice: When in doubt, say yes
52:58 – Making people feel seen: Why Michael still answers every email he receives

About Our Guests

Debbie Millman is one of the most influential voices in contemporary design. Her podcast Design Matters is celebrating 20 years of documenting design culture with over 500 episodes, while her leadership at AIGA and SVA has helped democratize access to design education and community. A prolific author, brand consultant, and artist, she's built a career on the belief that design should be inclusive, intellectually rigorous, and deeply human.

Michael Bierut is a designer's designer—a Pentagram partner for 35 years (now semi-retired) whose client work is matched by his contributions to design discourse and education. From co-founding Design Observer to serving as AIGA President during a pivotal era of digital transformation, he's helped shape how designers think about their profession. For over three decades, he's taught at Yale School of Art, where his influence extends far beyond any single project or logo.

Featuring
Guest Debbie Millman, connect on LinkedIn
Guest Michael Beirut, connect on LinkedIn
Host Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedIn
Host Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn 

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Creators and Guests

Host
Erik Cargill
Product Design and Branding Consultant Erik Cargill's journey spans from crafting early mobile interfaces in the '90s to transforming global shipping logistics software. As Art Director at Handmark, he led a creative team to capture 38% of the mobile software market, and during his 15-year tenure at Tideworks Technology, he proved that even the most complex systems can become user-friendly. Now, as founder of 32FramesPerSecond in Seattle, Erik helps companies create intuitive digital experiences, bringing his philosophy of "embracing change and failing gracefully" to every project. His unique blend of technical expertise and authentic approach makes him an engaging co-host of ’Cheers & Tiers: Design Leadership Tales Retold,’ where he helps uncover the stories that shaped our design community.
Host
Rachel Elnar
Rachel Elnar believes the magic happens when design meets community. As a Senior Creative Producer at Adobe, she's mastered the art of turning webinars into wonderlands where over 45,000 creatives annually connect, learn, and grow together. As an AIGA National Board Member and content producer, Rachel continues to weave her magic, producing engaging live-streaming shows and video content to reach thousands more while advocating for inclusivity in the creative industry. Now, as an AIGA National Board Member and co-host of “Cheers & Tiers: Design Leadership Tales Retold,” Rachel continues to weave her magic, creating experiences that don’t just look good—they feel right.
Guest
Debbie Millman
Debbie Millman is a designer, author, artist, and educator best known for hosting Design Matters, the award-winning podcast featuring 500+ conversations with creative luminaries. She chairs the Masters in Branding program at SVA, has authored six books, and her artwork has been exhibited at venues including the Boston Biennale. She also served as AIGA President twice.
Guest
Michael Bierut

What is Cheers & Tiers: Design Leadership Tales Retold?

Cheers & Tiers welcomes you into a circle of design leaders whose bonds were forged during iconic AIGA design leadership retreats and conferences. These gatherings were more than just strategic sessions with the nation’s chapter leaders—they were moments of shared growth, laughter, and camaraderie that shaped careers and lives, blending organizational development with celebratory toasts and even the occasional human pyramid.

Fellow design leaders Erik and Rachel as they reconnect with friends about shared experiences, memorable lessons, and transformative moments gleaned that defined this extraordinary group. Join us as we honor the relationships and memories that continue to shape design and leadership today.

Rachel Elnar:

Chapter Two.

Erik Cargill:

I'm Erik Cargill.

Rachel Elnar:

And I'm Rachel Elnar. And this is Cheers and Tiers.

Erik Cargill:

Design leadership tales retold.

Rachel Elnar:

Erik, the other week, I had a wonderful conversation with Debbie Millman and Michael Beirut. I'm so sad that you could not join us, but it was a great conversation. Both of these two people need no introduction, but Debbie Millman, she's a writer, designer, educator, artist, brand consultant, and host of the podcast, Design Matters. And Michael Beirut, he's a graphic designer, writer, teacher, design critic, and a partner at Pentagram Design. You know, just like regular old designers.

Erik Cargill:

You know, just regular folks. Just just like all of us. Yeah. Oh, I I'm so sad that I had to miss that, but, I'm glad you got to you got to interview them.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah. And,

Erik Cargill:

yeah, I'm excited for everybody to see this. Just, you know, in talking about, you know, these people are just like everybody else, and they and they really are. And they talk about the people that they considered rock stars and how nervous they were to be sitting next to their rock stars, which are, you know, which are, you know, well known names. There were a lot of gems in this one, a lot of really good gems. I know this podcast is about AIGA retreats, and they do touch on that and, you know, a little fuzzy on some details, but, you know.

Rachel Elnar:

I'm I'm excited for everyone to listen to it. So, guys, listen to it right now and hope you enjoy it.

Erik Cargill:

Yes. Enjoy it.

Rachel Elnar:

Hi, Debbie. Hi, Michael. I just wanna thank you both for being here. You've both talked about design and branding, culture, politics, all the greatest hits on all the biggest stages. But today, we get to talk about design leadership community and something very few people ever hear about, AIGA Design Leadership Retreats.

Rachel Elnar:

The stories that stuck and the moments that shaped how you both eventually led in the design world. So let's start with a moment that we know for sure, the nineteen ninety nine retreat, I think. That's where you first met. Is that correct?

Michael Beirut:

So says Debbie.

Debbie Millman:

Yeah. Well, I knew Michael. I knew of Michael before then, of course.

Rachel Elnar:

Well, I probably I I would have known of you as well, I think. Right?

Debbie Millman:

No. Not '99. No. Not from

Michael Beirut:

Speak Up or any online stuff?

Debbie Millman:

Speak Up didn't start until 2003.

Michael Beirut:

Okay. There you go.

Debbie Millman:

Yeah. 2003. And no. Of course, I knew you, and I was there. I had just joined the brand experience special interest group that I was then actually very unceremoniously disinvited from at the time the next year.

Debbie Millman:

But I was invited to join the leadership retreat. And I think Rick Raffet at the time had high hopes for what I might be able to do with AIG, so he invited me to come to this. And so I was invited to a dinner, and then just by the grace of God, I was seated next to Michael, and my life was changed.

Michael Beirut:

Oh, there you go. And I would have been there because I was I assume it was 99, so I was president of AIGA next to all at that point.

Debbie Millman:

You were president. I was sitting next to the president.

Michael Beirut:

And was this dinner where was this dinner? In New York? Was it

Debbie Millman:

It was dinner, and I believe it was either someplace in Pennsylvania or Boston. Don't remember which.

Michael Beirut:

Rachel, do you have some sort of, like, a dossier of, like, where every leadership retreat was?

Rachel Elnar:

I do, and it is community built on LinkedIn. So right now, I have 1999 is listed as Baltimore. We don't have any confirmation.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. It's It's Somewhere Yeah. No. It was, very much Amtrak. It was the Acela route.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. So it was either Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, or Boston. We narrowed it down, and Rachel brought it home. Thanks, Rachel.

Debbie Millman:

It was Baltimore.

Michael Beirut:

Thank you. That sounds about right. Yeah.

Rachel Elnar:

So what was the vibe of the retreat overall? Was, Can you tell me a little bit about the people and the energy, the tone of the conversations? How many people were at the retreat?

Debbie Millman:

I don't I think there were several 100 because it was all the AIGA chapter presidents and This was my first ever. This was my first ever retreat. I had never been to an AIGA sort of national retreat before. I saw Michael and met Michael, but you know who else I saw from a distance who I'd never met who was also just, like, personal hero was Emily Oberman. She was there.

Debbie Millman:

I saw her some morning, and she still had wet hair. And I thought she was, like, the sexiest woman I'd ever seen in my life. And now, you know, twenty I don't know. Almost thirty years later, she's my ride or die. So there you go.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. Me me too. Me too. Yep. Yeah.

Michael Beirut:

So it's so this probably would have been I had I went to the, you know, ten plus years before I was at the very first leadership retreat. I'm not sure if it was so called then, but the very first time they convened representatives from all the chapters was in 1988 in Minnesota. Yes. And I I would have gone there because I believe I was, I was probably the new president of AIGA's New York chapter at that point. When that I was I was, I think, maybe the third president of the chapter, third or fourth president of the chapter, I think.

Michael Beirut:

Because the chapter had just started in the early eighties. So it was it was like one of the first chapters that was put in place. And I remember that one I remember extremely well, because it was just so unprecedented, and it was, you know, Rick Raffaes' predecessor Carolyn Hightower. It had a lot of national board members there who at that point included, like, Milt Glaser. They were, like, you know, real you know, it just I mean, I'm a little bit older than you, Debbie, but I was having the same, oh my god, sort of, you know, breathing the same air as my design heroes in those days.

Debbie Millman:

Exactly.

Michael Beirut:

You know? And and all of this, you know, I mean, '88 to '99 saw, you know, sort of the invention of the Internet and sort of this kind of weaving together of culture online that, you know, that in the eighties was like, you know, it wasn't possible at all. The only contact you would have with the with people like this were were gonna be basically analog face to face encounters like, you know, like, you know, in those days, you know, I think design culture was built on things like judging competitions, design conferences, you know, speaking engagements, you know, and to the degree you have the energy to get involved with those things, you can go out and meet people. But then otherwise, you know, in the '70 in the seventies or when I was in college into the eighties when I was first working in a real job, it was all just basically, you know, plastic cups of white wine and kind of, you know, that sort of thing. Right?

Michael Beirut:

So even though, I mean, I I think I may have spoken to Milton Glaser before that in some in some kind of encounter in New York City at, like, what would have been AIGA's national headquarters up on 3rd Avenue at that point. But, you know, to kind of, like, feel like you were in this, you know, remote place in snowbound Minnesota. I wonder how snowbound it would have been at that time of year, but, but in remote Minnesota, Spring Hill, Minnesota, it was sort of, you know, it was quite the thing. April Griman was there. I remember sort of like was really like a a startling, you know, startling turnout for that and, like, still finding its way to a certain degree.

Michael Beirut:

Why do we have chapters? Why is it necessary to meet like this, etcetera, etcetera?

Debbie Millman:

So I have to, actually correct the record Because Michael and I actually met at a it wasn't in Baltimore. Because

Rachel Elnar:

what does it say? Chicago?

Debbie Millman:

This is a letter that Michael typed on Pentagram stationery '98 04/27/1998. So here's everybody can see it.

Michael Beirut:

There you go.

Rachel Elnar:

Yep. Lovely.

Debbie Millman:

And I have it. It's, you know, very precious to me. Dear Debbie, it was nice to meet you face to face in Chicago. I hope you are pleased at the way the conference came out. Would you like to come by for lunch and talk about rap music with me?

Debbie Millman:

I will call you in a few weeks to see if you're free. Because Michael had just worked on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and I had recently repositioned and relaunched Hot ninety seven, the world's first ever rock a hip hop radio station.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. And and and it's it's never it's always been a lonely pursuit being a a white suburban rap music fan. And

Debbie Millman:

White suburban Jewish. Rap music fan. And it's really funny because the group of us that that did the repositioning, there were a lot of us in within that demographic. But, yeah, it was one of the most exciting things I had worked on at that point in my life. And, Michael and I were sitting next to each other, and I, we started talking about it.

Debbie Millman:

And then Michael sent me that letter, and I still have it. I still have the letter. It's something so important to me. I have it with a Milton Glaser letter as well. But I also wanna say that that was the year that the Knicks went to the playoffs.

Debbie Millman:

And, at the time, I was a rabid Knicks fan. They'd broken my heart too many times since then to still be rabid. But at the time, I was super rabid, and I that night was a night of a playoffs game. And, we I remember my dad I was calling my dad because, you know, we didn't have texts and whatnot at the time. And he was giving me updates.

Debbie Millman:

And Michael said to me, I love sitting next to a woman who can do play by play.

Michael Beirut:

Although I would have been a I've never been much of a basketball fan, so I would have been oblivious to I I probably would have been, surprised to learn that there was a playoff that night and what teams are competing. That was all kind of, like, fairly remarkable.

Debbie Millman:

I think you were just trying to be inclusive and

Michael Beirut:

make sure were of that. Inclusive and sexist, I guess. You know?

Michael Beirut:

Or a

Michael Beirut:

potent combination.

Debbie Millman:

Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. But, you know, I did at the time feel a part of what was so memorable aside from it, you know, sitting next to design royalty and and having so much fun talking about rap music was at the time, I really felt that AIGA was was very elitist, and and I wasn't. And so I felt a little bit out of place.

Debbie Millman:

And and Michael really, you know, in that conversation and in our rapport was this sort of open, warm generosity, which which changed how I felt at that moment.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. And and that always was sort of a tension within AIGA, very pronounced still in those days about, like, I remember I remember, in fact, the late Milton Glaser in that first conference sort of like, speaking up during one of the discussions and saying, you know, this is really you know, by having this broadly distributed inherently more democratic or egalitarian structure to AIGA, it'll really change what the organization's about. Because he, you know, his, you know, he was he was definitely out of the world of a New York centric, you know, being involved in leadership at AIGA meant not just merely that you were energetic and prepared to be generous with your time, but you sort of had to be a good a quote unquote good designer. It was sort of like an an affirmation that you were, you know, that that you were hall of fame material in a way. You know?

Michael Beirut:

The if you look at if you sort of look at the leadership, it's not always true. It's always, you know, you'll I mean, you'll always see these portrait black and white portraits of white guys in skinny ties who are, like, judging AIGA competitions in 1967. And Right. And there'll be five of them, and four of them will be, oh my god. It's Lou Dorisman, Herb Blue Ballon, Milton Glaser, and Saul Bass.

Michael Beirut:

Then the fifth one will be some paper company executive or something. You know? So I think it's never quite always been like that. Not nothing wrong with being a paper company executive. Yeah.

Michael Beirut:

And there are so damn few of them now that they should not be criticized. But but I think it's there was this and he said, you know, you know, the you know, what AIGA stands for will will you know, if we go down this route, it'll be changed inherently, and it won't be able to position itself as, you know, either you know, it won't be able to it won't be able to position itself as an arbiter of excellence, quote unquote. But the flip side of that was nor would it kind of be seen as being a elite level gatekeeper as well, which I think is the implication that Debbie was talking about and sort of, you know and I and I and I think it's going back and forth between those two things. Mhmm. There's been a lot of struggles, you know, over the years about that that I think are probably at this stage of the game so completely dissipated and diluted by online culture and the atomization of, you know, the kinds of groups that any of us that any one person could identify with that it sort of doesn't there used to be a real it felt like there was a real binary in those days.

Michael Beirut:

There were people who were, like, really invested in AIGA and people who sort of, you know, viewed it with, you know, disinterest if not outright contempt.

Debbie Millman:

It's it's I don't wanna make any broad generalizations, but I think that at that time in particular, especially into the early two thousands when Speak Up and Design Observer first launched, I think that there was an intensity of feelings that were that were more about inclusive versus exclusive than necessarily the reason for being for AIGA. I mean, I think everybody wanted there to be design organizations that represented our needs and our hopes and dreams as a discipline, as practitioners in a discipline. And and I my my guess is that more of the more of the ruptures were about who was and who wasn't included than the overall positioning of AIGA as this force to represent us.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. And and I remember, you know, I mean, I sort of just fell ass backwards into, you know, the very, you know, part of the elite when I got hired, you know, right out of school to work for Massimo Vignelli. And I, you know, I was a kid from Ohio, didn't know nothing. And, you know, suddenly I would I sort of had this, you know, certification of, you know, at least junior varsity kind of elite excellence because I was sweeping up in the backrooms of Vignelli Associates. But I remember, like, you know, by the end of the decade and kinda going into the nineties, I was really self conscious of the fact that, you know, the in group that I wanted to be accepted by desperately was sort of the West Coast emigre magazine crowd.

Michael Beirut:

You know, they, like, they seemed really cool to me, and I could tell that they just thought that that Massimo Vignelli and, you know, the New York elite were just, you know, fuddy duddies with their heads up their behinds, and or still to kind of, like, just be seen as being some third rate disciple of one of these dinosaurs, you know, whereas, you know, me, whereas all the action was really happening with, you know, at Cal Arts, you know, all of that just seemed like really cool. And what's funny was that temperamentally, was so I always admired kind of what, you know, what the editors of Emigre were doing in terms of the intellectual discourse in a way, which seemed impressive to me. I could never, like, do that kind of design. It just sort of anytime I even tried to do it in my off hours behind closed doors, It just was so half hearted. I just like don't, I just was never good at them.

Michael Beirut:

Still not good at that. I don't, and so that that kind of a desire to do that sort of, you know, design work was sort of remote for me. But I really want, I just wanted I felt like I was kind of like, you know, stranded on some melting iceberg in a way that, you know, that people would say, well, there used to really be a design culture here, and now it's just like a puddle and a bunch of, you know, drowned people kind of washing up the shore, and I would have been one of them. So, but, you know, just goes to show you that no one ever thinks that they're, you know, you sort of I don't know anything about movie star culture, but you sort of sense that every movie star sort of thinks that someone else is getting the, the good parts even if they're, you know, George Clooney or, Jennifer

Debbie Millman:

Isn't that interesting?

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. I mean, they're all insecure. They all think that they're, you know

Debbie Millman:

Yeah.

Michael Beirut:

Hanging on by a thread. Yeah.

Debbie Millman:

That's why I was so I was so intrigued by Demi Moore's speech last year when she got the Golden Globe talking about a whole life of acting as a a pop corn actress. You know, at one point, she was the highest paid actress in the world, and yet she was still, like, viewing herself in a disparaging way. But, you know, what I can say about that time as well, 1999. Right? This this was the that was a year that we read Sterling with when I was heading up Sterling, we redesigned Burger King logo.

Debbie Millman:

We did the Tropicana packaging. And so if Michael felt sort of marginalized by the West Coast elite, you could only imagine how the New York elite was viewing traditional branding, which was why I ultimately got kicked out of the brand experience group because, quote, unquote, my work was too traditional.

Michael Beirut:

Or or too or too commercial. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Debbie Millman:

That was the word. Like, that was the reason. I was told it was too but, yeah, it was way too commercial.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. But I I remember even thinking, know, by the time I landed at Pentagram, of thinking, well, you know, it's, you know, it's one thing if you decide you're gonna be if you have an MFA, which I do not have, and you're gonna start a independent practice and do small nonprofits and galleries and sort of tricky little catalogs for your, you know, culturally, you know, specific friends, you can actually do a lot of really interesting design work. But then, you know, if if something of consequence comes along, you know, like Citibank or Mastercard or Verizon or something, you either say, oh, I'm sorry. I'm gonna wait for the nice little gallery to come along, or do something that actually has an effect on daily life that normal people will get will experience. And I think too often that's seen as being sort of like just a cash grab, you know.

Michael Beirut:

I'm tired of working for Peanuts for the little gallery. I'm gonna work for the big corporation. It's like, you know, I've never been paid enough to work for big corporations. Like, no matter you earn every one of those pennies. Like, you just you keep thinking, wow, this is you know?

Michael Beirut:

I'd never thought, wow, this you know, I don't like this, but wow, gee, I'm making a lot of money. What a blast. You know? You sort of have to really approach it with the same level of, even a higher level of seriousness and ambition that you would any other project you would do. And you have to be sincerely interested in it.

Michael Beirut:

You have to sort of like acknowledge the fact that someone who is going to an avant garde performance at a little downtown theater is, you know, is part of a very small market and you have to come up with a kind of communications approach and visual language that will signal to them this is just for you. Versus, you know, if you're rebranding Tropicana, you have to negotiate a whole bunch of people who already like Tropicana. Some other people who may not sue so who who are potential people who might like Tropicana, but need to be converted into that. You have to deal with not just them, but the people who are the retailers and the grocery store, you know, shelf people, all the people that go in between. It's like a big complicated mechanism, and you can't just sort of like say, okay, now to do this one little thing that works for, you know, a handful of people.

Michael Beirut:

It has to be and and you have to find that interesting. You know? If you don't find that interesting, you are just doing it cynically, and you can tell when this stuff's done cynically because it usually stinks. You know?

Debbie Millman:

Right. Yeah. I mean, part of what I love so much about it is the parts that behavioral psychology and cultural anthropology play in doing this work, and that's really my sweet spot in in all of this design stuff. But I will I will I'm gonna quote your partner here or try to quote your partner here, Michael. Paula Paula Share said to me once, they're not paying us the big bucks to redesign the big corporate logos.

Debbie Millman:

They're giving us the big bucks to navigate the corporate politics. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, with that.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah. Yeah.

Debbie Millman:

Absolutely true. Every single every single piece of that is exactly right.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. And I'd say finally, Rachel, what's funny a little bit is that I actually think both camps at different times and sometimes at the same time have felt disenfranchised by AIGA. Mhmm. I've talked I've talked and I've experienced people who have said, oh, AIGA is just about like, you know, big brand, big expensive things and blah blah blah blah blah. And and then at the same time, I think, you know, firms that are bigger and more commercial will sort of think, oh, AIG just, you know, gives awards and caters to really small practices doing experimental work.

Michael Beirut:

And it's seen where later you sort of just have to, you know, stop the score keeping and just sort of embrace the marvel of the diversity of practice that that that our profession still to this day affords. And one of the greatest things about Massimo Bignelli was even I mean, he had really strong opinions about design and about his five typefaces. And, you know, I would sometimes be in the office while he's opening his mail, and he would be saying, look at this. This is crap. Throw it in the garbage can.

Michael Beirut:

I'd wait till he left, and I'd fish it out of the garbage can, take it home from my collection, of of stuff that I thought was really cool and interesting looking. But he he was alert and would engage with things. You know? He sort of didn't just shut it out and say, you know, I don't understand this. He sort of was genuinely curious about, people who design in a dramatically different way.

Michael Beirut:

And I've seen I saw him kind of come to grips with, you know, with, Rudy and Susanna at Emigre , or Tibor at M & Company, and people like that who did work that I think on some fundamental level was something he would never do or quote unquote approve of. But still, he acknowledged it as a way to approach design that was radically different from what he would do, but something that was worth thinking about, even arguing with, you know. And I think that that sort of is, that's something we don't have enough of anymore, I think. I think every now it's just sort of anything and everything goes, and it was one big happy thing.

Michael Beirut:

And then, you know, I guess if you sort of have delegated design criticism to the president of The United States as far as approving logo revisions. There's no need for any of the rest of us to get involved. We just wait to hear what the White House says about the latest update of of some fast food logo. But I but I think, you know, to me, I'm talk like, I don't think that that's healthy, normal, or good either. So, you know, I think there's some new world that we're kind of that's waiting to be born, hopefully, and this is just some sort of painful moment we're going through on every level.

Debbie Millman:

Well, I don't know. Yes and no. I mean, yes, the the president weighed in on this particular one. But speaking of Tropicana, you know, I worked on the redesign of Tropicana in the late nine 1999, 2000, 2001, right around that time. I couldn't tell you the exact year.

Debbie Millman:

And then it was redesigned

Michael Beirut:

Yeah.

Debbie Millman:

As we know. Famous redesign that that did poorly. And within six weeks, it went back to the design that Sterling had done. And I had dinner speaking of Paula again, I had dinner with Paula around that time, and I was rather gleeful that my design had had come back, that somehow that was what the people wanted. And Paula, being Paula, said, I think it's terrible.

Debbie Millman:

I think it's a terrible thing that this happened, and I'll tell you why. And she did. And it was once you get this pressure about something not being good enough by standards that may or may not be valid, And you kowtow to that when you're trying to be brave, when you're trying to maybe take a risk, when you're trying to do something that is unexpected no matter what. If you are kowtowed into changing it because people don't like it, then you're always gonna be beholden to people not liking things. Mhmm.

Debbie Millman:

And and she was absolutely right. Because then what happened for the next two decades, anytime there was a logo that didn't do well and was retracted, people like, oh, they did a Tropicana. They did a Tropicana. And and and that's bad for all designers. And so she taught me a lesson in that moment that if we're if we're supposed to be on the forefront of change, change makers, idea idea makers, then we do have to be open to things being changed in ways that might make us uncomfortable.

Debbie Millman:

Yeah. And it also taught you that designers and and this is, I think, the key part for me that it taught me that you absolutely need to have a way to communicate change in in language that people understand. So it's not just some crazy cosmic thing that's occurring, which at the time, it sort of was made fun of for being, but that there is a a strategic reason that this needs to happen, and and this is really to help the consumer understand this product or this experience in a better way.

Michael Beirut:

Yep. Correct. Yep.

Rachel Elnar:

Both of you for the last forty, fifty years have been through so many changes in design. Obviously, you've

Debbie Millman:

Terrifying Michael forty, fifty years. Right? Terrifying.

Rachel Elnar:

So many changes in our industry. And I yeah. I mean, we're still going through massive changes, and I think it's even going faster at a faster pace than it ever has before. How has being part of AIGA helped you with this?

Debbie Millman:

Well, I I really do feel that I would not have the career that I have without AIGA. As difficult as it was sort of onboarding into the AIGA world, that's also part of my history and experience and something that I can reflect back on as something that really impacted how I view myself. And and I would not I would not have the career that I have. I would not have I likely wouldn't have had the podcast. I mean, I can't even think of of my life without AIGA being a significant marker in all of it in in in any level of success that I've achieved.

Michael Beirut:

Yep. And I I feel exactly the same way. It sort of is. And, again, I'm not sure the endorsement that Debbie and I would give would ring the same way to someone who was my age when I first volunteered at the AIGA New York chapter to do a mix tape for the opening party or to, you know, whatever, which is what I did actually. I sort of had a good record collection in a day where that was, you know, pre Spotify when that actually counted for something.

Michael Beirut:

And I said I'll do a Stuff does. I'll I'll do a cassette tape that's all songs about New York. I remember that really distinctly. And, so it's everything from living for the city by Stevie Wonder, We'll Have Manhattan by Ella Fitzgerald, you know, Boogaloo Down Broadway by the fantastic Johnny C. I had all these like, I still remember that playlist pretty well.

Michael Beirut:

And and the party pretty well. So that was like the mid eighties. And and the people I would meet there, you know, that's where I first met Paula Scher. That's where I first met Woody Pearl. I first met the people who would become my partners for the better part of four decades at Pentagram.

Michael Beirut:

Right? That was only through AIGA. There was no other medium through which I could meet these people. Or or or I daresay even become aware we would become aware of each other, you know, through through that channel as well. And I think so many people became aware of Debbie.

Michael Beirut:

So many people became aware of you know, it was sort of an amplify not amplifying or just kind of a a communication channel at a time where there were no other ones. And and so I think it was really, really significant in that regard. And it was a you know, there was a time where I think the role of both the leadership retreat presumably and certainly the AIGA conference has evolved. I mean, I was at the very first AIGA conference in '85, I think. And, you know, in Boston, that was interrupted by a hurricane, Hurricane Gloria.

Michael Beirut:

And then I'd I'd only missed I missed the next one, but I kind of attended every single one of them up till the very up till this year. It's the first one I didn't go to. I think in, in my career, but my you know, like I said, I'm semi retired, including from going to design conferences. So, but I think, you know, the role of these things have played is different now, you know. And I, you know, I mean, I sort of, you know, I know Rachel not from being sat next to you at some dinner in Chicago or Baltimore or someplace, but just because I sort of you were a online presence for me, someone I knew through, through LinkedIn and, Instagram, let's say.

Michael Beirut:

And I think that's more often how people are meeting each other now and becoming aware of each other now. And and then so it makes it so I I will say though, if by some miracle, you go to something and you're sat down next to someone and you connect with them, whether or not I mean, I've had the experience, and I bet everyone has had a version of this where you realize, oh my god, this is that person I follow on Instagram. And it's sort of like it's a it's still like electrifying, you know? And it's funny, the person doesn't have to it's not like it's necessarily, you know, know, Mikey Madison or something. It's just some schmo you follow on Instagram, and they might follow you.

Michael Beirut:

It's really electrifying that you're like meeting someone who's not a movie star or something, just someone who you've only had this kind of parasocial relationship with, and then you make a real connection. Right? So I assume that that's happening, that that happens and is still happening all the time, and is a good case for going out and sitting next to people at dinner if you can possibly swing it. But I think, the fact that, you know, some places like AIGA, and there were very few places like AIGA, kind of ended up being sort of the, you know, the the medium and the channel through which that happened for decades and decades and decades is not to be discounted.

Rachel Elnar:

Right. I mean, it was our community.

Debbie Millman:

Yeah. Yeah. No, Rachel. That's how I met you. I met you through AIGA, and I'm still meeting people through AIGA, just not as many.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah. Debbie, you and I met in Omaha at the Yeah. 2008, yeah, 2008 Leadership Retreat. I do remember.

Debbie Millman:

And that was right before I became president. Yes. And I still have photos from that. I went around and took photos of people that I knew and loved and did something, I think, on Flickr of my pals at AIGA. I think it was called, like I think the the folder was called AIGA pals.

Debbie Millman:

It might still be up on Flickr somewhere. But, yeah, that's that's when we met. It was the year before I became president or the the retreat right before I became Sean was leaving and I was coming in.

Rachel Elnar:

That's right. That's right. And Michael, you said that when you first when you were in the room, you got to meet people. That was our community for sure.

Rachel Elnar:

And then at that point, 2008 is when we translated into the digital community as well, because we all had these Facebook accounts, and we started these Facebook groups, and having this connection between physical and digital sort of came about, and we're it was all new to all of us. But definitely, I think it strengthened relationships going forward.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. And also through, you know, I think I mean, Debbie, I sort of consider myself fortunate because I think my involvement with AIGA, I sort of rode out kind of like the high tide in a way because I was president of the New York chapter at the end of the eighties into the nineties. Then I was president of National at the end of the nineties into, like, the very early odds. And, you know, we had I'm trying to remember. I think it was the I forgot whether it the 2000 the the last conference that I was president for was in Vegas and had the biggest turnout of any conference in the history of AICA conferences.

Michael Beirut:

Not because of anything I did, but just because everything, all the demographics and everything else was sort of conspiring to make that happen. And I do think, you know, what Rachel just mentioned, the rise of digital culture actually provoked a crisis at AIGA where people partly because people's own practices were being transformed or even threatened by that. You know, you sort of had long ago things like desktop publishing that sort of seemed to be, you know, like scary things that, like, would rob people of of, you know, projects, clients, and hence income. You had the rise of, you know, pew you know, people's ability to quote unquote design websites all of a sudden became this big thing that was separating people who were presumably going to make it be relevant in the future and people who just were kind of just keep hoping that someone will come along and ask them to design a book or a flyer or something because those things were never going to survive this transformation. You know?

Michael Beirut:

And

Debbie Millman:

Sounds familiar? Sound familiar? Familiar?

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. And so, like, I remember, you know but but, like, the the main thing, the thing that was actually unequivocally true was that AIGA's role as being the sole analog channel for the for the community was now being usurped, and people could connect in all these different ways. And, you know, and I

Debbie Millman:

think also what led to oh, I'm sorry, Michael.

Michael Beirut:

I No.

Debbie Millman:

Go ahead. Go ahead. I thought you were finished. No. I think that's also what led to the path to speak up designer.

Debbie Millman:

Yeah. I I mean, I remember by so I was on the New York board, I think from 2004 to 2007, and then I joined the national board in 2007 to 2009. And then 2009 to 2011, I was president. And a lot of my work at that time was building the social media presence. Like, I remember when we hit 300,000 followers on Twitter, and we were just so proud of ourselves.

Debbie Millman:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Michael Beirut:

No. It's it's

Debbie Millman:

not on the street. Yeah. And and then but also having the ability then to communicate much quicker, you know, first through the blogs, and then through social media. So, you know, it's a double edged sword in terms of how technology is has impacted the way we work and communicate. But I think one thing that I really do feel good about in in the way that AEGA has, I think, for the most changes.

Debbie Millman:

There's always been infighting, and there's always been debate, which is good, which is really good. Yeah. But I but I do think that AIGA has stayed on top of of things in a way that they didn't have to. Yeah. Yeah.

Debbie Millman:

You know, there are lots of other clubs, so to speak, that that don't always that haven't always been able to do that.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. And I think, you know, the the competition, you know, ebbs and recedes as things go along. I mean, like, you know, you were involved with SpeakUp, and then I was involved with Design Observer. And Yeah. You can look back to the glory days of blogs.

Michael Beirut:

And, you know, if you happen for some reason to kind of come upon a really juicy comment, section to some post, it's it's like not only is it remark not only is the quality of the discourse remarkable with people had no character limit and would actually hold forth, but the participants were really people who were smart Mhmm. You know, and had something to say and took the time to put it into thoughtful words. And I remember, you know, this was unprecedented as far as AIGA goes. I mean, if you saw something that bothered you in the AIGA journal, I suppose you could prepare a sharply worded letter and lick a stamp and drop it in a mailbox and send it off to AIGA and think it might be printed in you know, the next issue or some damn thing. But, like, to actually be able to kind of get, you know, weighed right into a debate.

Michael Beirut:

And there were really juicy, debates that kind of would, you know, run on for you know? I remember the New York Times ran an article about it where they're, you know, commenting on certain comment threads that were running on to, like, upwards of 30,000, 40,000 words. You know? And and that was sort of a place where people were connecting to. AIGA made forays to try to get into that, but it's sort of actually, you know, it's it's actually hard to be sort of someone who's trying to replicate something that's happening somewhere else.

Michael Beirut:

And I think it's sort of AIGA always has to figure out a place where it can kind of take its, you know, its legacy that kind of gives it legitimacy and figure out how to deploy it in a way that's relevant to people today and responding to some legitimate need that's out there. And I think that's the trick. And to and I don't think, AIGA always, you know, hits the target or scores a 100%, but the fact that it's still around and still relevant. And, and also, you know, at least so it seems to me, but I think, speaking just for myself, I'm always conscious of the fact that I I'm seeing these things from a very different stage of my life and, you know, position in the profession. And it's hard for me to remember what it was like, you know, being in a, you know, in design school in Cincinnati and pre AIGA, the Art Directors Club of Cincinnati would pay money to have, you know, someone from a designer from Chicago or an illustrator from New York fly in and do a presentation downtown.

Michael Beirut:

And, you know, and these things were like, you know, white table club dinners with cigars and, you know, macaroons and coffee at the end of them or some damn thing. And I just was a I one of my bosses, like, would let me sneak in and sort of stand around with the bellboys, you know, to to see the presentation, which is the only thing I cared about. I didn't I wasn't there for the networking. I would have been really inept at that. But I think, you know, that was sort of my first peek into from outside the window through the curtains at what the design profession was like.

Michael Beirut:

And now people access it in a million different ways. And I think, you know, in some you know, I just was telling someone that I I'm I'm actually really grateful that I was born and grew up in the moment I did, partly because I think I I had the kind of temperament as a child and adolescent that had I had access to the Internet as it is today, I think my head would have exploded. I mean, like, I'm not I really don't I think my mental health would have been jeopardized by it. I really do. I agree.

Michael Beirut:

You know? And it makes me really cautious about you know, I've got two grandchildren over five and seven, and, you know, just really wonder what they're gonna be encountering by the time they're fully conscious of these things. Now both boys, and we all worry about how boys do in this situation, particularly, I you know, as as a boy, I'm not sure how I would have done.

Debbie Millman:

I remember I mean, it's interesting, Michael, because I was working I graduated college in 1983, and really didn't get involved in AIG until the late nineties. Yeah. Because I didn't even really know about it. I I had you know, my career was very

Debbie Millman:

scrappy.

Debbie Millman:

Yeah. Yeah. Scrappy career. And and it's really only when I became aware of AIGA that things really began to change for me, but mostly because of how much I was able to learn. Yeah.

Debbie Millman:

Yeah. I was suddenly exposed to so much more than I'd already learned fifteen years working as a professional. So that was really what I think was the biggest gift, was how much I was exposed to, not not just in the people, which was, of course, extraordinary, but just the way that people were practicing, the things that were important, the things that were making a difference. Like, I didn't know about these things at all. Yeah.

Debbie Millman:

And that's really what what changed my life was be suddenly becoming privy to and then part of this moment?

Rachel Elnar:

Debbie, I learned so much when I got into AIGA. Not only just attending as a member, but when I started to volunteer and get into leadership and get into boards, wow. I my my mind just blew. Like, I learned so much. Working, developing, and and running a nonprofit, it felt like.

Rachel Elnar:

Running a business. I never knew all this stuff. So I think that Yeah. That being able to volunteer and being on a board and going to the leadership retreat changed my life. Yeah.

Debbie Millman:

Yeah. Without a doubt.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. I mean I don't

Debbie Millman:

think I'd be here. I don't think I'd be here. Michael would be here. I would not.

Michael Beirut:

No. I I mean, it's really hard to say, Debbie. It's because I can remember really distinctly my my predecessor the pres the guy who was president of the, AIGA New York chapter in the eighties who asked me whether I would, you know, whether I would be available to be considered to succeed him was, Anthony Russell, Tony Russell, still with us today, and a great guy. And I remember him saying I remember him so distinctly saying, one of the things that they're doing now is this leadership retreat, and you have to I mean, he's sort of telling me, like, here's all the things you have to do, and you have to go on these leadership retreats, and they'll be in some place, like whatever. And he says, but they're amazing.

Michael Beirut:

He's sort of like, you go to these things and you think, what am I in for? And then you meet this, you meet some fantastic guy from Kansas City, and he just ends up being a real delight. I believe he was talking about Bill Gardner specifically, I met, you know, who's still around, you know? So, you know, I remember meeting Bill Gardner and thinking, Oh, you're the guy from Kansas City. He's so impressed, Anthony Russell.

Michael Beirut:

You know, I but I think that it also kind of really opens you know, I think I in a way, weirdly, Debbie, I think I came at it from a very different position, but sort of ended up in a similar place because it would have been easy for me to kind of just lock myself into this hermetic kind of Vignelli modernist world in, you know, in you know, on 10th Avenue in New York. And I think participating in AIGA opens so my eyes to so many different ways of practicing, practicing, so many different ways of kinda quote, unquote being a designer in the world. And and, you know, and also kind of reinforced the reason that I got into design, which wasn't wasn't primarily or even mainly to to, you know, express myself artistically. But I always thought that design was a fantastic way to participate in the in the world as a social construct, you know. It was sort of a way to, you know, I always the cliche I always use is because it's it actually was my life.

Michael Beirut:

It's sort of like a way to be in the drama club without having to learn lines or embarrass yourself trying to sing or dance in front of an audience. You just design the poster. You go to the cast party. You hang out with these charismatic, you know, 14, 15, 16 year olds, you know, would be actors, and you sort of think, I'm I'm in the middle of things, and you can do something that they can't do. You know?

Michael Beirut:

You can design a poster, and they might be able to sing and dance, and but, like, you did the thing that put the asses in the seats. You know? And so I remember thinking, if if if and this is when it was hard to figure out what that was called, actually. And I remember thinking, if I could do this for a living, I'd be happy. You know?

Michael Beirut:

And ever since then, that's sort of what's motivated me. It's not so much sure. It's great to sort of see your work out there in the world, but it's also all the things you do running up to it involves meeting people who are different from you and kind of like expanding your being curious about them and expanding your own consciousness about all the different ways that the world can work, you know, both as a designer, as a citizen, as, just a human being. So.

Rachel Elnar:

So I have just one last question as we're wrapping up here. There are design leaders who are still running chapters. Right? AIGA is still going strong. They do have, as we talked about, so many communities that they are in competition with.

Rachel Elnar:

Right? Online communities and in person communities. But if you could hand one design leadership lesson from your early years to the next generation of chapter leaders, what would it be?

Michael Beirut:

Yeah.

Debbie Millman:

When what's her name? One sec. Let me think. I'm having a senile moment. Sandra Bullock won won the Oscar for, the movie that she was in that year.

Debbie Millman:

She made a really charming speech about how he knew that people had looked down on her for the movies that she'd been in. But she kept persevering, and they finally gave her this award for for never giving up. And I I feel like AIGA in a lot of ways is is similar in in the way in which they sometimes bring people in. You know, there might be resistance at first, but if you really, really wanna do it, you can. You really can.

Michael Beirut:

And I would say, when in doubt, say yes. That's that was sort of my philosophy when I was involved with the chapters. And I think now even you know, we had we had a book launch at Pentagram last week that had a big crowd turned out for it. And it was, like, very much the kind of crowd that an AIGA chapter would have liked to have seen. And I don't think we, you know, it was for Georgia Loopy's new book, and we just kind of, like, sent out some invites and kind of had some light publicity online, had a standing room only crowd for it.

Michael Beirut:

And and and we didn't perceive it as something we were doing because, you know, in competition with AIGA or to fill in something that AIGA couldn't do. I think we and Stacey was there actually, the executive director of the AIGA New York chapter. She's one of the attendees. And so I just think it's the the design community is the design community. And the more broadly you can define it, the more healthy it is.

Michael Beirut:

And if you wanna fence off a part of it and say, this is the design community, but the smaller part of it is AIGA. Give, you know, give that a try, but I think that's a losing proposition. I think the idea is to sort of just say yes to partnerships, say yes to participation, say yes to you're where you're willing to go and who you're willing to let in. And I think all those things just make things healthier, more vital, more exciting. Right?

Michael Beirut:

And it sort of is, I mean, that was I mean, Debbie, I remember that was your philosophy when you were president. You sort of had this thing where you wanted to visit every one of the chapters, I believe.

Debbie Millman:

Yeah. Yeah. The time. 66 chapters. Had the And same there are now.

Michael Beirut:

I had the same thing where it was, you know, I remember to my to my long suffering wife Dorothy's exasperation, I sort of had come I had sort of made this commitment that I if anyone asked me to kind of visit a chapter, I would say yes. You know? I

Debbie Millman:

Absolutely. Yeah. And I still do. I still do. Honestly, I still do.

Debbie Millman:

That's how committed I am to AIGA. Yeah. I'll go any I'll go to any chapter. I've been to I mean, it was amazing. The South Dakota chapter, the Hawaii chapter, the Alaska chapter.

Debbie Millman:

Yeah. I did. And it was an honor to do that.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah. Yeah.

Debbie Millman:

It was an absolute honor to do that. There were, I think, five chapters in Florida and another five in Texas and then five in California. It was but it was amazing. And and I was lucky at the time to be able to do that too. My my day job gave me that flexibility.

Debbie Millman:

And part of what I wanted to do part of the reason I did that was because I did want everyone to feel welcome and included. And and because there was that moment where I felt excluded, I wanted to obliterate that sentiment within the organization as best I could.

Michael Beirut:

No. No. And I think that that's sort of I mean, it's it's again, it's part of just saying yes in a way.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah.

Michael Beirut:

But that can you don't have to be president of AIGA to have that philosophy. You know? I mean, I sort of have this other commitment I made, which I which I went on the record about and I still try to abide to to this day, which is if I said if someone sends me an email, I always answer the email. And sometimes the email is, I'm sorry. I can't help you.

Michael Beirut:

Sometimes it's like, here's a link to something that I think is sounds like it's relevant to your interest. Sometimes they're asking for you know, somebody someone will write and ask me for something I just can't do for one reason or another. But I always, like, remember how, you know, it's like it's it's tough. It's tough out there. It's tough to be it's tough to be a person in the world.

Michael Beirut:

And when you reach out to someone and you don't even get an acknowledgment that you've reached out to them, that sort of makes you feel even more invisible. You know? And I think it's just so easy to make people to acknowledge that someone shares this earth with you even if you're not gonna become their best friend or their boyfriend or girlfriend or partner or, you know, even one day sitting next to him at dinner, you know, just to kind of like just trade an email and sort of get a nod, is not that hard to do. And, you know, the when I if if I run into someone and they said, you know, you answered an email from me that I sent when I got out of school twelve years ago, and I never forgot it, I said, I always say, just remember that the next time you get an email from someone because

Debbie Millman:

Pay it forward.

Michael Beirut:

Yeah, pay it, I mean, it forward, exactly, yeah. It's not hard to do. And it sort of is, you know, in the micro level, it's doing what I think AIGA has always aspired to do on an institutional level.

Debbie Millman:

Absolutely.

Rachel Elnar:

That is great advice. And the chapter leaders are out there constantly paying forward, trying to serve their communities. And so thank you so much. I appreciate that. And thank you so much for being on the podcast and helping us document the AIGA leadership experience, especially through retreats.

Rachel Elnar:

Thank you, again, both of you for sharing yours. My pleasure. My honor.

Debbie Millman:

Thank you.

Michael Beirut:

Rachel, you welcome. Thank you for doing this.

Rachel Elnar:

Cheers and Tiers will be back next time with more Design Leadership Tales Retold.

Erik Cargill:

Please subscribe, rate, review, and share this podcast with your creative community, design leaders, and friends.

Rachel Elnar:

Cheers and Tiers Design Leadership Tales Were Told is a production of chapter two and hosted by us, Rachel Elnar and Erik Cargill. This episode was produced and edited by Rachel Elnar. Podcast graphics by Erik Cargill. Animation by Verso Design and Megatoe Design.

Erik Cargill:

The theme music track is Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans. Follow Cheers and Tiers on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube podcasts, or wherever you get your audio and video podcasts. Subscribe to our email list at cheers and tears dot com so you don't miss an episode.