“I'm not asking you to walk in my shoes; I'd never wish my afflictions on anyone. But could you walk beside me on secure ground and reach to hold my hand?” ― Richelle E. Goodrich
The concept of possessing a servant's heart has its roots in religion, specifically Christianity: "The servant’s heart means to help others in love without expecting something in return, serving in appreciation of the gifts God has already given us." However, embodying a servant's heart ideal is universal, meaning one can lean into this way of life through a wholly secular lens.
We are moving beyond those traditional religious connotations for this very reason in this week's episode. The idea of servanthood — of being helpful and genuinely of service to to others — is a core competency that we must all develop in order to live a life that is beyond our default.
Our conversation examines the evolution of a servant's heart, as well as the critical role of self-care and setting boundaries in maintaining a healthy balance. We talk about the potential pitfalls of excessive helpfulness and the need for self-awareness in navigating the complexities of being of service to others — including my personal journey of addressing unhealed people-pleasing tendencies and my inclinations to "keep the peace" in emotionally unstable environments.
George and Liz also discuss the importance of self-awareness and avoiding burnout. We explore examples of genuine helpfulness and the concept of servant leadership, as well as practical steps for taking baby steps towards a more servant-minded life.
Our Favorite Helpfulness Tips
Regularly check in with yourself to avoid burnout and prioritize self-care.
Genuine helpfulness involves being proactive, honest, and transparent.
Servant leadership focuses on the needs of others before considering your own.
Start with small acts of kindness and active listening to cultivate a servant-minded life.
Questions We Discuss
When we say "servant's heart" what does that actually mean? Conversely, what isn't a servant's mentality?
George has made no secret of the fact that his mindset has radically shifted over the years. That he struggled with anger and working through feelings of "but where are my blessings" – when and how did that change?
Why is helpfulness core to living a life beyond your default?
How and when do you see "helpfulness" lapse into becoming problematic?
How do you find a balance between being helpful and knowing when you need to help yourself?
Where is the line between genuine helpfulness vs. people-pleasing and trauma-born attempts to regulate the emotions of a situation?
What does genuine helpfulness look like in practice?
If someone struggles to break out of a default that is more self-focused, how do we encourage someone to take baby steps toward a more servant-minded life?
Chapters
“I'm not asking you to walk in my shoes; I'd never wish my afflictions on anyone. But could you walk beside me on secure ground and reach to hold my hand?” ― Richelle E. Goodrich
The concept of possessing a servant's heart has its roots in religion, specifically Christianity: "The servant’s heart means to help others in love without expecting something in return, serving in appreciation of the gifts God has already given us." However, embodying a servant's heart ideal is universal, meaning one can lean into this way of life through a wholly secular lens.
We are moving beyond those traditional religious connotations for this very reason in this week's episode. The idea of servanthood — of being helpful and genuinely of service to to others — is a core competency that we must all develop in order to live a life that is beyond our default.
Our conversation examines the evolution of a servant's heart, as well as the critical role of self-care and setting boundaries in maintaining a healthy balance. We talk about the potential pitfalls of excessive helpfulness and the need for self-awareness in navigating the complexities of being of service to others — including my personal journey of addressing unhealed people-pleasing tendencies and my inclinations to "keep the peace" in emotionally unstable environments.
George and Liz also discuss the importance of self-awareness and avoiding burnout. We explore examples of genuine helpfulness and the concept of servant leadership, as well as practical steps for taking baby steps towards a more servant-minded life.
Our Favorite Helpfulness Tips
Regularly check in with yourself to avoid burnout and prioritize self-care.
Genuine helpfulness involves being proactive, honest, and transparent.
Servant leadership focuses on the needs of others before considering your own.
Start with small acts of kindness and active listening to cultivate a servant-minded life.
Questions We Discuss
When we say "servant's heart" what does that actually mean? Conversely, what isn't a servant's mentality?
George has made no secret of the fact that his mindset has radically shifted over the years. That he struggled with anger and working through feelings of "but where are my blessings" – when and how did that change?
Why is helpfulness core to living a life beyond your default?
How and when do you see "helpfulness" lapse into becoming problematic?
How do you find a balance between being helpful and knowing when you need to help yourself?
Where is the line between genuine helpfulness vs. people-pleasing and trauma-born attempts to regulate the emotions of a situation?
What does genuine helpfulness look like in practice?
If someone struggles to break out of a default that is more self-focused, how do we encourage someone to take baby steps toward a more servant-minded life?
Creators & Guests
Host
George B. Thomas
A catalyst for growth!
Host
Liz Moorehead
Content therapist and speaker.
What is Beyond Your Default?
What Is Beyond Your Default? "Everyone keeps telling me I should be happy, but I'm not." “I feel stuck.” “I have a calling, but where do I start?"
Right now, you have a choice. You can continue living within your default norms, playing it safe, clocking in and out every day, and scraping by to achieve what's supposed to make you happy hopefully. Or you can choose to accept the challenge of living beyond your default. Stop wishing to live your "best life” and start living your best life. Success leaves clues. And they're waiting for you to discover them.
George B. Thomas:
It's not about looking down from a pedestal. It's about empathy, respect, and standing shoulder to shoulder with those you're serving. Liz, have you ever heard these words? Because this is this is another good kind of, like, this ain't this ain't what it is. I'll help, but only if.
George B. Thomas:
Listeners, have you ever heard that? Like, this is conditional service. True servant leadership doesn't come with terms and conditions. It's open hearted, inclusive, and unconditional. And maybe a brother, cousin, you know, like the mafiosa, narcos, like, I don't know.
George B. Thomas:
They're like the bad, the black sheep of the family of conditional service is manipulation, and it's under the disguise of service. And in my book, that's a freaking big no no because it's like the evil of evils. It's the opposite of what serving is all about. Authentic service is about lifting others up, not using them and I'm talking to you if you're in the business realm and you've ever done this. Authentic service is about lifting others up, not using them as stepping stones.
Liz Moorhead:
Welcome back to beyond your Default. I'm your host, Liz Morehead. And as always, I'm joined by George v Thomas. George, how the heck are you this morning?
George B. Thomas:
Liz, I am doing great. I'm super excited to strike up this conversation. You know, honesty, maybe give it a different light than what it might be getting shined into. It's funny because before we hit the record button, you started to lean into something about, like, doing the research and, like, man, I just couldn't really and, Liz, I wanna start off with, if you've clicked into this, you've seen the title A Servant's Heart. It led you in here.
George B. Thomas:
Typically, there's a very religious connotation. When you search it, it is all religious articles, sermons, and there's almost zero business conversation. There's almost zero just life being a servant in life versus it being this, like, ultra religious. So, Liz, I'm excited because what I wanna do is maybe bridge the gap of servanthood just as you as a human and how this impacts your journey and servanthood from a business or leadership or family sense instead of this, like, massive religious conversation that's happening on the Internet.
Liz Moorhead:
I'm really glad you brought that up, George, because part of the preparation I do for every single episode is I go out into the world, and I not only prep the questions for the conversation that we're gonna be having today, little insider baseball for the listeners. I also go out and look for a lot of third party research because one of the things that George and I made a commitment to each other and then also to our listeners is that we show up each and every time we record on the mic very passionate about a particular topic. Yeah. Very excited to share our own perspectives, but we are also showing up as students on this journey as well right alongside you. There are times I will go out and I'll say, you probably won't agree with this, but we need to read this contradicting perspective on what we're talking about.
George B. Thomas:
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead:
Or here's the science behind what we're actually talking about. And you're absolutely right. When I first went into this topic, you know, looking into anything that's servant's heart, servant's mentality. I mean, I was raised Catholic. This is not new to me.
George B. Thomas:
Right.
Liz Moorhead:
What was fascinating, though, is that we are talking today about a servant's heart. What does true helpfulness look like? Yeah. And even just looking into research about helpfulness, there isn't a ton. There's, like, a few stuff where it's like, if you help someone, you will feel better.
Liz Moorhead:
It's like, thank you. Yeah. That is helpful, kind of.
George B. Thomas:
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead:
But one of the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation with you in particular is that being a happy, helpful, humble human
George B. Thomas:
Yes.
Liz Moorhead:
That is coded into your DNA.
George B. Thomas:
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead:
Now some of our listeners, what I just said is not brand new information. You know George through his more than a decade of just killing it in the inbound and HubSpot space. But that is something that has been coded into your DNA as long as I have known you, but it has not always been the case. No. More than that, from my perspective, what I'm excited to dig into today because when I told you, I said, I'm very excited to talk about helpfulness, but we need to talk about the seedy underbelly of it, is that when does helpfulness go too far?
Liz Moorhead:
When does it become toxic? When does it become I will tell
George B. Thomas:
you from experience. Yes.
Liz Moorhead:
It is. But this is where it's funny. That's when it's you know what? We'll get to that later.
George B. Thomas:
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead:
So let's dig in. Let's dig into this conversation.
George B. Thomas:
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead:
When you say servant's heart, what does that actually mean if we're removing the religion out of it? If we're just talking pure semantics. Yeah. What are we talking
George B. Thomas:
about? Might not be able to remove all, but I'm gonna try to at least and we're gonna talk about it. Ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna talk about it. But first of all, Liz, let's start with a dope quote to set the tone. K?
George B. Thomas:
Too often, we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. And this is Leo Boscaglia. You you should search him on the Internet. It's old school, but there's this show that was the 11th hour, and he does a talk on it. Anyway, when I think about a servant's heart, it takes me back to those moments in life where you see the purest form of giving.
George B. Thomas:
Liz, it's those times when you can just tell that people, aka us humans, are doing what we're doing because we generally care about other humans or the thing that is important to us in that moment or at that moment. Another way that I think about this that the humans, us, generally believe is we're trying to put good into the universe. I know you've heard me say that at at nauseam. I'm trying to add value to the world, put good in the universe. And it's like this beautiful mindset where your whole being is focused on lifting others up.
George B. Thomas:
This is why I say I was looking for a hand up or I'm willing to give a hand up, putting their needs, our needs, and the well-being of the other human. This is gonna sound foreign to some people that are listening to us. And the well-being of others right at the top of your list. And sometimes, Liz, dare I say, sometimes we even put them above our own needs. Now I've seen this in so many walks of life in business.
George B. Thomas:
You see employees that are uber helpful. Schools, you see good teachers that are just, like, killing it. I have to talk about good teachers because I've used this podcast to talk about a bad teacher before. Hospitals, I was recently in the hospital. Nothing big.
George B. Thomas:
It was just a normal thing that you do when you get old. I'll let you use your imagination. But the nurses and the doctors were amazing. And you see, it's not just about doing a job. It's about leading with love, with that genuine desire to make a difference in someone's day, a difference in their life.
George B. Thomas:
And, Liz, you've heard me. Like, there's these micro codes that I have in my life that as I started to do my own research and lay this out, you've heard me say leave them better than I found them. This is literally what I'm talking about. And, honestly, I think that this has been part of my hidden kind of not hidden points for success over the past 20 years of my career is this idea of helpfulness and servanthood. It boils down to large amounts of empathy and compassion, the the heartbeat of this whole concept and, again, words that I've used over and over and over again, being compassionate, behind those actions that you're taking.
George B. Thomas:
But that's not the only thing that I think impacts a servant's heart, Liz. Along the way, I feel like you need to grow a substantial dose of humility. And you even said my saying, happy, helpful, humble human. Humility is a game changer. It's like you're taking out your ego out of the equation and saying, this isn't about me.
George B. Thomas:
It's about how I can help you. It's a quiet strength that amplifies the voices and needs of the others around us. And and that's why I have said it in my videos through the years, Liz, about, and I even wear a hat. Dank on it. The hat I'm wearing this morning, the hat I wear almost every day says the words happy, helpful, humble, human.
George B. Thomas:
Right? And it is coded into my life. But I think that there's two factors that are attached to this happy, helpful, humble human, this servant's heart, and that's listening and integrity. Listening, and I mean really listening, is where you find the gold. It's not just about hearing the words.
George B. Thomas:
It's about understanding the stories, the struggles, and the dreams of the humans that you're actually listening to. When you listen with your heart, I'm a say that again because most of you listen with your ears. When you listen with your heart, you connect on a deeper level, and that's where you can make a real impact in the lives of others around you. And the last thing, Liz, that I really wanna talk about is integrity and trustworthiness. These are your anchors or at least they should be.
George B. Thomas:
They're what make people feel safe with you. What makes you like, you can be helpful, but then there's, like, that person that you're willing to lean on. They know that you're gonna be there. It's about being someone who doesn't just talk the talk, but walks the walk with honesty, ethical actions that build bridges of trust, and not to be that marketing guy on this podcast, but trust is so important in life and in business. And listen, Liz, and the humans listening to this, by the way, I hope they're listening too.
George B. Thomas:
Having a servant's heart is about being a beacon of hope and support, a true leader who inspires by example. It's about making the world a little brighter, one selfless act at a time. And as you journey to a life beyond your default, this is what we should be focusing on. This is a key element that, again, many times gets hidden in this massive religious conversation. But if you think about how I just answered that, there was nothing religious about it.
George B. Thomas:
It was core human principles that when applied and paid attention to can revolutionize how you interact with the world on a daily basis.
Liz Moorhead:
There's so much goodness to unpack there. I have to go down the business route as well just in response to what you were sharing there. Because when you were talking about being truly of service, it reminded me of something I say a lot to clients or it's a barometer or a litmus test I use to determine whether or not this is one of the organizations I want to work with. And it's a very simple question. Are you genuinely of service?
Liz Moorhead:
More specifically, do you solve real problems, not imagined ones? You would be surprised. You would think that every organization I run into, that is not a
George B. Thomas:
You would be incorrect. Yeah. So
Liz Moorhead:
That's number 1. But I think that's something you know, those who are genuinely of service, they are out there solving real problems, not imagined ones or being of service in a genuine way. You also said something there about the importance of tapping into the heart over the head Yeah. Because that's where we make our true connections. It reminds me of our toxic positivity episode where we talked about the fact that if you are too, quote, unquote, productive and, quote, unquote, proactive and, quote unquote moving through your emotions and not letting them take hold of you, you miss out fundamentally on what it means to be a human and what the human experience is about.
Liz Moorhead:
And, again, bringing it back into a business context, emotional arguments, connecting with people on a human to human level. Even if you are b to b, that is how you win the day. That is how you become unforgettable. That is how you step outside of mediocrity and are able to build communities. Now I wanna dig a bit into your past here, George.
George B. Thomas:
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead:
I've already mentioned this. You've made no secret of the fact that your mindset has radically shifted over the years in terms of this conversation, that you've struggled in the past with anger and working through feelings of, but where are my blessings? We literally have a whole episode dedicated to that about blessing bombers. I'm curious. When did that change?
Liz Moorhead:
Was it a slow evolution, or was there a specific moment or set of moments in your life that became the catalyst for helpfulness, for possessing a servant's heart as a core part of your whole ass human operating system?
George B. Thomas:
Yeah. It's it's interesting because as a young man, I was definitely like a bull in the China closet. I I definitely was like, I'm out to rule the world. If I had won a $1,000,000, I would have bought everything that I would have ever wanted. It was so just self serving, like, back in the day.
George B. Thomas:
And, Liz, I'd love to just be able to tell a story of, like, I woke up one day and all of a sudden I wasn't an asshole, but that's, that's not that's not how it happened. Honestly, it's a it's a mix of times, and so it's been more of a journey. And the way that my brain unpacks it is I've been given these layers over time, one on top of the other, that just ended up equaling this servant's heart, happy, helpful, humble human that I've become and that I'm trying to kind of connect with others and build a community around, whether it be through stuff that we're doing professional or personal and and like this podcast even. But it kind of for me, the starting point was right after the navy ended up in a place called Faith Ranch. And there was the camp director that I've talked about.
George B. Thomas:
His name was Bill Wiley, and he's passed now, but a great man. And just the way that he fed into my soul and the lessons that he taught me, him and Arden, because Arden definitely had some, like, zingers as far as, like, ways that I think even to this day. That would probably, for me, be the beginning. Maybe even Willie May. There was a pastor before Faith Ranch.
George B. Thomas:
So there was a little bit of Willie May, Bill Wiley, Arden, after the Navy, slightly homeless, moving into, like, this I'm gonna go work at this ranch and save money and potentially become a pastor point in my life. That would be the beginning of it. If we fast forward and I've mentioned Dave Wright. He used to be the pastor at a church called Trinity Baptist. This is literally the story that, you know, my wife and I met him at the top of the bar that we are working at.
George B. Thomas:
I was a bouncer at a bar. And through the way that he kinda poured into our lives, went from being a bouncer at a bar to youth pastor at a church. So, like, that was, kind of the layer of how this happened. Heck, even after that, you know, ending up in Mindgrab Media, AKA Epiphany, and meeting Eric Jacobs and some of the layers and things that he would apply into my brain and some belief structures and, like, just lessons that I learned along the way that I don't even know if he realizes they were powerful lessons that I was learning. Fast forward to the sales lion, a huge piece with Marcus Sheridan was there's no secret sauce.
George B. Thomas:
We were talking about this from a business standpoint, but you know me. I'm kind of weird. Like, Dan Tyre says you're inbound in human form. So take that to me hearing no secret sauce and, at a human level, I'm gonna just give them everything. There's no secret sauce.
George B. Thomas:
Right? And I even go back to the original HubSpot Academy crew was like, they were down with the no secret sauce. We're gonna teach everybody everything about the way to do business in a more human way. But to be honest, Liz, like, all of those layers you've heard the saying the straw that broke the camel's back. One of the layers that for whoever cement this servant's heart whole ass human conversation we're having today was the conversation when I first started my business.
George B. Thomas:
And you're like, George, what would it look like if you showed up as a whole ass human? And I feel like all those layers before I was, like, a half or let's maybe even say 3 quarters unlocked or fully unlocked to, like, this servant heart's life. But when I heard whole ass human, I was like, I really need to just quit dinking around. Like, I need to be a 100% in in the way that I believe and the person that I wanna be and the things that I can achieve because of because of that. And so as you can tell, it was, like, multiple people over time with lessons that were taught that got me to this point of just the structured belief around being a servant leader, being a servant in life, doubling down on that helpful part of happy, helpful, humble human.
Liz Moorhead:
That's incredible. And it's something that does happen by slow degrees. You know, when I think about my relationship with helpfulness, there are certain parts of our stories that rhyme. I mean, I remember looking back in my early twenties and just being very angry, but that was anger rooted from a place of shame of otherness. You know?
Liz Moorhead:
I left I left college because I just I was surrounded by so many people who seemed so sure about what it is that they were doing, and I was about to be another 2nd year psychology major.
George B. Thomas:
I just
Liz Moorhead:
didn't. I couldn't. I wanted to feel sure the way others felt sure, and then that put me in a place of otherness, which made me feel very angry, which made me feel less excited to help my fellow man and more leaning toward helping myself because no one else is gonna help me. If I'm not looking out for me, no one's gonna look out for me, and it it becomes a self imposed isolation. You know?
Liz Moorhead:
That's something I've since grown out of, but I just remembered those were very lonely. What's interesting about this mentality that we're talking about is that I think it's easy to think of helpfulness as this one dimensional verb. Right? Like, I'm gonna help you with advice. I am going to be there for you.
Liz Moorhead:
I am going to be of genuine service as a leader, a friend, a spouse, or whatever but it has second and third order effects whether you that switch is on or whether that switch is off. You know, if that switch is off, you end up in scenarios like like I was. I was I was very lonely and I was very angry at the world. I had taken a step back from my communities and then wondered why I was alone. And that's where it gets fascinating.
Liz Moorhead:
So I do want to tap into something you said at the start of this conversation because I wanna make sure this one to one connection is very clear. Helpfulness, I don't think anybody's here debating with us as to whether or not this is a good thing, whether or not helpfulness is helpful as a human. But I want to understand why you see this conversation as a core component of living life beyond your default?
George B. Thomas:
I love this question because my hope is that all the humans listening to these episodes that we're creating now and, by the way, in the future, when I'm long gone, are achieving a life beyond their default. And, Liz, we start to really embrace that servant's heart. It's like we're kind of turning the camera away from selfie mode to actually capturing the world around us. And it's this beautiful shift where we start to see life not just through our lens, but through the eyes of others that are around us. And let me tell you, that's where life starts to get really rich, really meaningful.
George B. Thomas:
It's like we're tapping into this deep well of human values, compassion, and selflessness. It's not just about us anymore because, by the way, that gets boring and lonely, but it's about being part of something bigger, something beautiful. And my goodness, the growth that comes from this, serving others, it's like nourishment for the soul, for the body, for the mind. It grows empathy, patience, humility, and you start to feel the sense of gratitude or contentment that's hard to find anywhere else. It's like you're sculpting a more mature, well rounded version of ourselves or of yourself.
George B. Thomas:
And trust me, that's a great place to get to. But it's not just about personal growth. It's about community and connection. And you know that community, Liz, is something that, 1, has natively happened to me over the past 10 years, and 2, I'm super passionate about. And a servant's heart is like a bridge to connecting us to each other.
George B. Thomas:
And that's why I think this has happened just natively in the business side of my life because of who I'm showing up to be, the narrative that I'm asking others to show up as the happy, helpful, humble human. And it breaks down these walls we built, the isolation, the loneliness that you talked about, it creates a a network of support and, more importantly, a sense of belonging. We're not just individuals. We're part of this vibrant, interconnected community. And I think that's why I love my professional career so much in the HubSpot ecosystem is that inbound and the original humans of the ecosystem embody the servant's heart for each other.
George B. Thomas:
Everybody talked about how it was, like, the most helpful group of humans that they had met. But a bonus, though, something that resonated with me, this concept of serving others. Liz, the reason why we Google it and it gives us what it gives us is because you can't deny it is a spiritual journey. It's like we're connecting to something way bigger than ourselves. It could be our community.
George B. Thomas:
It could be our humanity or a higher power, depending on who that is for you. This connection is a source of and at least for me and I believe for most other humans, this connection is a source of peace and fulfillment. And when you're living a life of peace and fulfillment, it's like finding the secret ingredient to a life well lived, a heart fully open, you know, a life that is beyond your default. That's what this is like.
Liz Moorhead:
I love about what you said about connecting to a higher power, whatever that means for us. Maybe it's just a greater sense of community. Or maybe sometimes it's like when I'm in the chair at the hairdresser and she does that little massage y thing when I'm getting my hair washed. Like, that is connecting to a higher power right there.
George B. Thomas:
Or it could be Yahweh.
Liz Moorhead:
That is Whichever. That is a that is a straight up biblical moment. I the anyway.
George B. Thomas:
I do like the massage at the hair. It's like because I too like, everybody does. I'll be honest here. I do what they call the MVP, and they do, like, the
Liz Moorhead:
Oh, heck yeah.
George B. Thomas:
Neck massage, and they do the and they do the little tea whatever stuff in your hair thingy. And, anyway, that's not why we're here. But sometimes you gotta care for yourself. You gotta love yourself. You gotta give yourself anyway, maybe we will actually talk about that before this is over.
George B. Thomas:
Anyway, let's move forward.
Liz Moorhead:
Well, you can bet your bottom dollar that we have an episode about self care coming up, folks, so stick around for that one. We'll we'll
George B. Thomas:
have a special guest, so I probably won't be here for that one.
Liz Moorhead:
Nice try, Chucklehead. You'll be there. Alright. We're talking in very aspirational tones. One of the things that I always like to talk about in any conversation is when things go too far.
Liz Moorhead:
So before we start talking about that, though, I wanna get very clear on the flip side of your definition of what isn't a servant's mentality. In what ways might people be defining this incorrectly?
George B. Thomas:
It's time to nerd out, in other words. I love diving into the heart of what something is by absolutely digging into what it's not. It's like peeling back the layer to reveal the true essence of the thing we're researching, especially with something as profound as today's topic. So a servant's mentality let's go ahead and kind of, you know, what's on my brain. First off, there's this idea of serving for applause.
George B. Thomas:
You know who you are. You're looking for that pat on the back. You're helping because you want the shiny trophy. Stop it. There's also this thing of, like, true leadership is like giving without even thinking about what you'll get in return.
George B. Thomas:
I think that's what I think about when I think about again, the alternate to that is, like, I don't care if I win a trophy. I don't need a pat on the back. I'm gonna help because it's the right thing to do. It's pure selfless. Then there's also this sneaky thing that gets in there, and I fall prey to this, but it's this this idea of being self centeredness or self centered.
George B. Thomas:
It's it's easy, to be honest with you, almost natural to put our own needs first. But to really embrace a servant's mentality, we gotta flip that script y'all. We gotta flip that script and put others in the spotlight instead of ourselves. And to be honest, Liz, again, I was connecting dots during this whole research phase. I think this is why I love doing interviews or MCing events so much because I get to put other people in the spotlight.
George B. Thomas:
I get to step back and serve them and help them tell their stories or help people realize how amazing they are. But there's also a gotcha here about when we're man, it's funny. All of these, I probably can tie back to something that has happened in my my life. Have you ever had somebody help you, but it came with a side of superiority? That's not really what serving is about.
George B. Thomas:
It's not about looking not. Yeah. It's not about looking down from a pedestal. It's about empathy, respect, and standing shoulder to shoulder with those you're serving. Liz, have you ever heard these words?
George B. Thomas:
Because this is this is another good kind of, like, this ain't this ain't what it is. I'll help, but only if. Listeners, have you ever heard that? Like, this is conditional service. True servant leadership doesn't come with terms and conditions.
George B. Thomas:
It's open hearted, inclusive, and unconditional. And maybe a brother, cousin, you know, like the mafiosa, narcos, like, I don't know. The, like, the bad, the black sheep of the family, of conditional service is manipulation, and it's under the disguise of service. And in my book, that's a freaking big no no because it's like the evil of evils. It's the opposite of what serving is all about.
George B. Thomas:
Authentic service is about lifting others up, not using them. And I'm talking to you if you're in the business realm and you've ever done this. Authentic service is about lifting others up not using them as stepping stones now. Liz here's the thing. We can Spicy.
George B. Thomas:
We I'm not trying to be spicy, but it's just I've run into this or been part of these things that I'm mentioning. But we can't end this conversation without, like, not forgetting to take care of ourselves. We've gotta talk about that a little bit. It's like trying to fill others' cups while ours runs empty, which, of course, if I go spiritual, like, I I have the scriptures, like, about filling my cup, and and I really lean into that. But in this case, it's like trying to fill others' cups while ours runs empty.
George B. Thomas:
Serving others is beautiful, but it is humanly impossible to pour from an empty cup. So self care, which by the way, we just referenced it. We might actually do a whole episode of this. Self care isn't selfish. It's essential.
George B. Thomas:
True service is like a dance that you've gotta move with the rhythm of those you're serving even if that is you or if it's someone else. It's about being adaptable, really tuning in to what they or heck even we, you, need. Understanding these default states help us grasp what a servant's mentality truly is and how we can embody it more authentically even every aspect as we build our lives beyond our defaults. It's about being genuine, Liz, selfless, and truly connected with those around us whom we serve. That's what it isn't and what it is kind of combined together.
Liz Moorhead:
Well, you also started tapping into the the part of this discussion I really wanted to get into is when does it go toxic? Because I think sometimes, you know, there's the overt toxicity of quote, unquote helpfulness. I'm here for myself, but I'm going to say I'm here for you. Like, that kind of stuff, you know, I think we all know when we're doing it even if we're trying to convince ourselves we're not doing it. I think that part we know.
Liz Moorhead:
Where it gets a little bit tricky and where I have found myself challenged in the past is whether you're coming from a place of trauma or you're coming from a place of just maybe a predisposition towards people pleasing, this type of mentality can accidentally become self destructive. It's not really helpfulness if you are sacrificing your own boundaries at every turn to, quote, unquote, be of service. There is a servant's mentality, but there is also the slave mentality as well. A good way I used to think about it as I was pulling myself out of this is my therapist asked me, are you really trying to help or are you trying to keep the peace? And this became a really important question for me because I've I've talked about this on previous episodes.
Liz Moorhead:
You know, I I grew up in an abusive environment, and that made me very hypervigilant about other people's emotions. It made me hypervigilant whenever I would perceive any sort of threat to calm because that meant, like, my fight or flight response would activate. I would get very anxious, and I would get very nervous. And so I became this consummate people pleaser with 0 boundaries because I was constantly trying to keep my environment in a safe and calm state. Now when I was younger and still in that live environment, it made sense.
Liz Moorhead:
It was tragic, and it sucks that it had to happen, but, you know, I'm fine now. But I still carried some of that with me as I got older where I still couldn't let go of that anxiety around, oh, gosh, is somebody having an uncomfortable feeling? It is my responsibility to remove the discomfort. And this is where we need to start drawing that line when we look at ourselves and we evaluate what role does helpfulness play in our lives. How does our servant's heart manifest?
Liz Moorhead:
Are we doing it out of a survival instinct? Are we doing it from a place of I have to make sure nobody's uncomfortable? It is my responsibility to carry the emotional health of whatever dynamic that I'm in, and that's where we need to be very, very careful.
George B. Thomas:
It's funny because I jokingly said, you're talking about helpfulness meant too much. I said, is that even a possibility? And it's funny because helpfulness, it can be this double edged sword. Right? I mean, helpfulness is a beautiful thing, but it can get tricky.
George B. Thomas:
Like, you just kinda talked about it. If we're not careful, like, it can get real tricky. Most of us fall prey to this idea or this thing of putting everyone else first and kind of forgetting about ourselves. And it can start to feel like we're running a marathon with no water breaks. Now before I go too far into that analogy, not that I have ever run a marathon, but I can I can tie into it?
George B. Thomas:
Listen. You're gonna hit a wall. You're gonna feel a bit of resentment, honestly, and your own tank starts to run on empty. And I'm gonna double down on what I said a little bit earlier. Self care isn't selfish.
George B. Thomas:
It's essential to keep you in the game or keep you in the race if I continue with that analogy. And, listen, I feel like I need to say that again for the humans that are half listening in the back row or driving their car because it's that important. Self care isn't selfish. It's essential to keep you running the race or keep you in the game.
Liz Moorhead:
You can't take anybody anywhere in your imaginary helpfulness car if you don't have any gas in your own tank.
George B. Thomas:
Yeah. So this other side of this and we've probably all said, oh, yeah. She's an enabler. And this whole enabling others thing that we do as humans, it's like always tying someone's shoe for them. Like, let's be honest.
George B. Thomas:
Eventually, they might need to learn how to tie their own doggone shoe. And we as humans and by the way, I'm using a very lightweight example for that one because maybe they need to, like, get off the dope. Maybe they need to, like, actually own their marriage they're in. Maybe they actually need like, there's some heftier ones other than tying your shoes that I could use here. But, you know, At the end of the day, we've gotta strike a balance between lending a hand and letting others flex their problem solving muscles Because here's the thing.
George B. Thomas:
If we're always doing it for them and this is gonna be hard for some people to hear. If you're always doing it for little Johnny, if you're always doing it for little Susie, like, we're keeping them weak, and weak humans have almost no chance to live a life beyond their default. So while you're trying to become the best you can and while you're trying to build a legacy, are you keeping the ones around you weak out of this thing that you feel is helpfulness or being a servant, but it's that double edged sword part. And this makes me think about the episode we did on boundaries, Liz. Boundaries, they're crucial to, like, this conversation.
George B. Thomas:
Sometimes we step in with the best intentions, but we might be crossing a line. It's like walking into someone's house without knocking. By the way, don't do that at my house. You will be in trouble. Never.
George B. Thomas:
We need to we need to honor everyone's personal space and their independence. And, again, let them tie their own dang shoe. Quit it. Just quit. You must, and I mean must, make sure the help we're offering It's like giving a gift but accepting something in return.
George B. Thomas:
It's like giving a gift but accepting something in return. True kindness, helpfulness is giving freely without expecting anything in return. It's about caring sincerely, not about getting approval or controlling others' lives. So here's the deal. You've got to be discerning with your helpfulness.
George B. Thomas:
We all have to be discerning with the helpfulness that we're thinking about dishing out in life. It's about tuning in to what the other person really needs and respecting those boundaries, checking our motives at the door, and remembering to put on our own oxygen mask first. See what I did there with the oxygen? Anyway, listen. Real talk, ladies and gentlemen.
George B. Thomas:
True helpfulness is a dance. Finding that sweet spot where our help is truly, well, helpful, because otherwise, it's just not.
Liz Moorhead:
It's like that great piece of scripture that I love so much. Check thyself before thy wreck thyself.
George B. Thomas:
Yes. That's, that is a good that's a good, scripture.
Liz Moorhead:
Luda 2445.
George B. Thomas:
Yes. Yes. Exactly. You better check yourself before you wreck yourself.
Liz Moorhead:
Before you wreck
George B. Thomas:
yourself. Anyway
Liz Moorhead:
And this This
George B. Thomas:
is what we do here.
Liz Moorhead:
This pug I love this podcast. I love it so much. Alright. You already started dipping into this question because I think you said 2 things that were really, really important. Number 1, boundaries.
Liz Moorhead:
Boundaries are essential to this helpfulness conversation. And you've already started talking a bit about the importance of putting on your own oxygen mask first. But I wanna ask you, how do you find the balance between being helpful and knowing when you need to help yourself? Are there certain triggers or cues that you feel? Are there certain things you proactively look out for?
George B. Thomas:
Yeah. I don't know if I'm pro like, listen. We've said it before. We're learners of the things that we're talking about.
Liz Moorhead:
Here.
George B. Thomas:
Students. Yeah. Trying to be masters, maybe helping others become masters through being a student. And I've gotten better at this the older that I've gotten, but I definitely wanna double down on setting boundaries. I mean, it literally is like drawing our own kind of personal map.
George B. Thomas:
I mean, we've gotta know our own territory where it ends, where it begins, where someone else's begins. It's about understanding our limits, what we can give, how much can we give without draining our own tank? You have to know yourself. And understanding and list I absolutely suck at the words that are about to come out of my mouth, but saying no or maybe or not right now, it isn't being selfish. It's being smart.
George B. Thomas:
It's protecting your time and your energy so that you can be there for others in the long run that really, really need it. And, again, honestly, I'm not the greatest at either of those. Saying no or protecting my time are 2 things that I am actively working on.
Liz Moorhead:
Well, you know, it's funny. The no thing that you just brought up, it reminded me of something Yeah. But this idea of when I when I used to be a department leader at an agency, one of the things that I used to say to folks when they would feel they were taking on too much, they felt like they couldn't help everybody that needed to be helped, I would say, well, when you're saying yes to something, what is it that you're saying no to? And that is something you can ask those folks. Okay.
Liz Moorhead:
I'm happy to prioritize this. I'm happy to say yes to x, but that does mean we need to say no to something else because of the priorities that I currently have in front of me. Now am I super good about that in practice? No. That is no.
Liz Moorhead:
But sounds nice, doesn't it? It? It sounds
George B. Thomas:
It sounds great. Great. Yeah. So setting boundaries. Now, again, I'm gonna double or triple click into something that we mentioned a bit earlier, and that is prioritizing self care.
George B. Thomas:
That's the fuel for the journey. It might look like what I said earlier, getting the MVP haircut where I actually let because you decide that you need that. For you, it's gonna be different things, but what it is and what you should think about it, it's like scheduling little pit stops in your daily rat race. It could be 5 minutes of meditation. It could be going and standing outside with your feet in the grass with no shoes or socks on.
George B. Thomas:
It could be going out to your back porch and maybe smoking a cigar if that's your thing. I'm not saying that has to be your thing, but what are those little pit stops in your daily rat race? I mean, it could be hitting the gym. It could be tapping into one of your hobbies. It could just, again, be getting some good relaxation.
George B. Thomas:
And, Liz, you know me. I love me some good old relaxation. Like, these should be nonnegotiables for you if you wanna keep actually going through. If you wanna keep your engine running smooth, keep you ready and able to help others without running on fumes. I feel like I could make a fast and furious reference here, but I won't
Liz Moorhead:
Do it. Let the knot flow
George B. Thomas:
through you. Without fumes. Anyway but here here's the thing, Liz. To do anything that we're talking about here, we need to have a healthy dose of self awareness. Right?
George B. Thomas:
So we've got boundaries. Self awareness. I feel like in the future there should be like a self episode all the selves that you should be paying attention to and not but self awareness is or should be our compass, your compass. Regular check ins with yourself asking, how am I really do have you asked yourself that ever, by the way, listeners? How am I really doing?
George B. Thomas:
You see, it's about catching those early signs of stress or burnout. It's about knowing when your well-being is taking a back seat and making sure that you're not just running on autopilot because, ladies and gentlemen, let me tell you, autopilot is dangerous. I correlate autopilot to ending up in the hospital for 3 and a half days, to be honest with you. When you're tapped into yourself, you can understand your motivations, and you can start to dig deep. This might be self awareness and digging deep and understanding yourself.
George B. Thomas:
It might be an expert trail. I mean, it might be a black diamond on the beyond your default journey. It's scary, and it gets ugly sometimes. But understanding your motivations, it's like asking yourself, why am I really doing this? And I don't know if you've ever got caught up in something and just went with it because you didn't have the ability or self awareness to ask yourself, what in god's name am I doing?
George B. Thomas:
Why am I really doing this? Are you helping or being a servant from a place of genuine care? Or, again, is it to get that pat on the back or that trophy? It could be even darker side of this. Are you being helpful so you found a way to avoid your own problems?
George B. Thomas:
I mean, make sure you're helping for the right reasons, not just for approval or as a way to escape your own issues because you're just staying busy. I'm staying busy by being helpful, so, therefore, I don't have to look at myself or fix myself.
Liz Moorhead:
That is hurtfully accurate. Ouch. Rude.
George B. Thomas:
I only know because I live it. I've lived it. Like
Liz Moorhead:
Flag on the play.
George B. Thomas:
10 yard penalty.
Liz Moorhead:
Yeah. Replay first down
George B. Thomas:
of Right. You want some
Liz Moorhead:
help with that? Oh my god. No. I love a lot of the points that you're making here. It's reminding me of one of the cues that I've started to pick up on.
Liz Moorhead:
Well, two things. 1, did somebody even ask for help? Right. Now granted, sometimes not everybody's going to be asking for the help that should be given because they they don't know how to ask for help. That's a different scenario.
Liz Moorhead:
But how many times do we artificially insert ourselves into scenarios where we had no business being there? Maybe somebody just wanted advice. Maybe just maybe somebody just needed support so they could do it on their own, and that's what real helpfulness looks like. I think, again, sometimes it can be easy to accidentally lapse into the well, here, let me do this for you because there's that knee jerk, like, subconscious reflex to remove pain or discomfort from somebody else. Then there's the other piece of it of when I feel the urge to help someone, I check-in with my energy tank.
Liz Moorhead:
Let's pretend I do have the time and do I have the resources? Yes, those are both yeah. Do I have the energy? Do I have the desire? Or is this a time I need to take for myself?
Liz Moorhead:
I mean, I've had times in recent memory where I end up at the end of a week with negative energy surplus. Like, I am just drowning. And it's because I look back and say because those are a bunch of yeses that should have been nos or yes but next week.
George B. Thomas:
Yeah. Those are
Liz Moorhead:
a bunch of times where, like, I put myself in the position to run myself into the ground because I did not know how to set boundaries.
George B. Thomas:
And that's when you have to ask yourself, like because, again, part of this is about the hard questions. But, like, do I hate myself, or do I really love myself? Because what did this week say about it?
Liz Moorhead:
So we've touched upon a bunch of examples of genuine helpfulness already, but what are some other examples of what genuine helpfulness looks like in practice?
George B. Thomas:
Yeah. I saw this question, and, I said to myself, shoot. I'm in trouble. If my mother or my wife ever listened to this episode, I know I'm gonna get a SMS message, an email, or somebody's gonna come up to my face and go, well, then why didn't you just do the dishes, or why didn't you just vacuum the floor, Or why didn't you just because see, here's the thing. Honey do list.
George B. Thomas:
Man. Because here's the deal. Real deal, Holyfield. It's being the first to raise your hand. It's stepping up before anyone even has to ask.
George B. Thomas:
It's about being proactive, not just reactive. You see a need, you're already lacing up your shoes, and you're saying put me in coach, and you jump into the game. It's not about waiting for a signal. It's not about being tuned in, always on the lookout for how you can make the difference. What I'm saying is it is always about being tuned in.
George B. Thomas:
Always on the lookout for how you can make that difference. This is why I'm saying I would. Somebody's gonna say, then don't you see the dishes over there? Didn't you see the floor need to vacuum true help? Waiting for
Liz Moorhead:
you to be proactive. Ma'am,
George B. Thomas:
This one is smacking me.
Liz Moorhead:
Hi Kelly.
George B. Thomas:
This is like I'm I'm I'm like boxing with like Evander Holyfield or something, but but true helpfulness or servanthood is like giving a gift and just forgetting about it. Like, imagine if she woke up and the dishes were already put away, or imagine if she got home and the house is already vacuumed. And imagine if I wasn't hanging around waiting for a thank you card or a favor in return because I actually did those things. Our reward, your reward is in knowing that you made someone's day a little bit brighter. You made somebody's day a little bit easier.
George B. Thomas:
It's about the joy in their smile, not the pat on the back. Liz, this ties into my zero expectations rule that we've mentioned in earlier podcast episodes, like just do the thing and have zero expectations servants and I'm talking to you if you wanna have this mindset or you feel like you have this mindset servants consistency, and reliability are your trademarks. When you're consistently there, always ready to lend a hand, people trust your helpfulness. It's genuine. It's real.
George B. Thomas:
Servants, honesty, and transparency are your foundations. It's being upfront about what you can do and just as importantly, what you can't do. It's about knowing your limits and being transparent about them. And, hey, if you're not the right person for the job, it's okay to pass the baton. Pointing someone in the right direction, that's just as helpful.
George B. Thomas:
Listen. You know this, and this does go back even to the sales line and market share. In my business, I'm always trying to diagnose whether I'm the right fit or not. And if I'm not, guess what? Here's somebody I know.
George B. Thomas:
You should probably talk to them because that's the most helpful thing to do. Being oh god.
Liz Moorhead:
Being I know when you look like you're about to have indigestion, we're about to hit something good.
George B. Thomas:
Yeah. I always get these, like, moments where I feel like I'm gonna, like, lose my lunch. But being voluntarily proactive, no strings attached, consistent, and reliable, honest and transparent. That is literally the blueprint of genuine helpfulness, AKA a servant's heart. It's about being that steady, reliable force in a world that's consistently spinning around you and the other ones that you're trying to serve and be helpful with.
George B. Thomas:
I know that whole section is gonna come back to bite me in the butt.
Liz Moorhead:
Hi, Kelly. We love you. He's on his way to do the dishes right now.
George B. Thomas:
Now I really need to proactively and voluntarily. Podcast is over, I gotta go put dishes away.
Liz Moorhead:
I have a couple other examples that I wanna throw in there because I I love how you're talking about helpfulness at a at a very high level. But I think a micro example that and this is a quote where I I can't remember who said it, so I I apologize. But I saw this thing somewhere that said, if you really wanna help someone, tell them what they need to hear. If you wanna help yourself, tell them what they want to hear. Oh.
Liz Moorhead:
And I thought that was way to think about the difference between being genuinely helpful versus people pleasing. Now, there is a caveat here. There is a distinct line. Now, if you're in entrepreneurial circles, there is a book called Radical Candor by Kim Scott. I love that book which talks helpfulness, a form of true love, a form of true compassion.
Liz Moorhead:
Like, that is when you are your most effective. And then there's something called ruinous empathy where you're you don't wanna hurt someone's feelings, so you don't actually tell them what is truly helpful in a given scenario. This is not a blank check to be an asshole. Mhmm. I just want to be very clear.
Liz Moorhead:
Yeah. Because I've seen people say, well, I'm just being radically candid. Well, this is what you need to hear. You have to balance all acts of through a lens of genuine compassion.
George B. Thomas:
Yeah. Honesty is not a baseball bat.
Liz Moorhead:
No. Although I do like the metaphor 2 by 4 of truth, but let's not actually do that. And I find that very frustrating where people under the guise of being helpful become bulldozers. Are you lifting people up? Are you empowering them?
Liz Moorhead:
Are you realizing that sometimes you need to let people walk and do things on their own? Do you always have to be in the right? Do you always have to know the best way? Do you always have to be the guide? Again, it goes back to something you were talking about earlier, George, which is how do you position yourself?
Liz Moorhead:
How do you view yourself in this scenario? If you're viewing yourself as some sort of savior, some sort of know it all, you've got a problem. Yeah. Now the second example that I wanna point out actually reminds me of one of my first people managers who really made a big difference in my life and his name was Sean Quill. He was the VP of operations at LivingSocial.
Liz Moorhead:
And I didn't know that there was a label for it at the time, but he is something called servant leadership. Right? We've talked about servant mentality, how that comes more out of the religious spaces, but there is a whole school of thought of leadership called servant leadership. And that means you are a servant leader when you focus on the needs of others before you consider your own. It's a longer term approach to leadership rather than a technique that you can adopt in specific situations.
Liz Moorhead:
It is a posture. It is a mindset. It is a mentality. And Sean really altered my view as a people manager because I would go on to manage a very large team at LivingSocial. I've managed departments and teams since.
Liz Moorhead:
And he looked at me in the eye, and I can't remember the conversation, but I was asking him for support about something, and I made essentially an allusion to the fact, well, like, well, you're the boss. I wasn't trying to be a jerk. He hadn't said anything wrong, but he was just like, well, you're the boss man. You know what I mean? And he went, no.
Liz Moorhead:
No. No. No. No. I don't think you understand.
Liz Moorhead:
When I walk in here every day, I don't act like you work for me. I work for you. Yeah. And that little different way of looking. It's a very small change in how you think about something, but it was really impactful because that is what true servanthood looks like.
Liz Moorhead:
And that was something I carried with me when I had my own teams, which is that is if you're not empowered for success, I am failing.
George B. Thomas:
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead:
I I don't care how good our numbers are. I don't care if if we have other problems. If I'm not serving you in the best way possible, then Houston, we've got a problem.
George B. Thomas:
Yeah. Without a doubt.
Liz Moorhead:
So last question. If someone struggles to break out of a default that is more self focused, how can you encourage someone today, right now in this moment, to take baby steps toward a more servant minded life?
George B. Thomas:
So it's interesting because I think there was some information in this question that I really leaned into, and that is that they're trying to break the default that they're in, which is the opposite of what we've been talking about. And baby steps, you mentioned in here. So I try to keep it simple, my answer for this one. So the first thing is that I would ask them to do is just try small acts of kindness. Honestly, magic in my everyday life.
George B. Thomas:
Every time I get to do one of those small acts of kindness, be a blessing bomber, it could be a compliment here or there, a helping hand. It could just be being a little bit more polite in your daily interactions. For some of you, that will be a blessing to many. Like, these little things might seem small, but they tend to add up. It's like planting seeds of kindness wherever you go.
George B. Thomas:
That's what I would want you to put in your mind. How can you do these small little things? The next thing is, especially when we're trying to break the default of, like, it's about me, it's about me, it's all about me, is this idea of active listening. And I referenced my heart versus the ears earlier, But this one can be huge. And it it can be easy ish.
George B. Thomas:
But it's about really tuning in when someone's talking to you, not just waiting for your turn to speak. It could be as simple as flipping your phone over when you're actually trying to have a human conversation. It's giving them your full attention, asking questions that show that you're really listening, really caring, that you're trying to dig deeper into understanding them instead of just shutting them up with a response or well, anyway. To be honest, this is how we as humans build bridges, how we connect heart to heart. This is when we truly feel like we belong.
George B. Thomas:
The next one that I would give people and, again, you know me, Liz. I'm a good sit at the base of a tree and think guy, so I had to throw in here a power of reflection. After you do something kind, after you do some active listening, then give yourself the space to take a moment to think about it. How the heck did that make you feel? By the way, that's fueling your engine because you'll feel that that feeling is actually very important to you, and you actually get a lot out of giving or being helpful to others.
George B. Thomas:
What impact might it have had on the other person? This is a question that I like to ask. Because, see, it it isn't about sitting at the base of that tree and patting yourself on the back. It's actually more about understanding the ripple effect of your actions and the joy that comes from giving. And, Liz, you know me.
George B. Thomas:
I'm a big ripples guy. But as with any journey you set out on, setting realistic goals, like, that's the road map. You have to understand where you're headed. It could be as simple as one act of kindness daily or a few hours of volunteering each month. What do you want to achieve after listening to this podcast around being helpful or having a servant's heart?
George B. Thomas:
It's not about overloading your plate. It's not that. Like, oh, now I need to go do all the things because I need to be a servant leader. I need to have a servant heart. It's not about, like, just too much for you because baby steps and trying to implement this and break out of defaults.
George B. Thomas:
It's about setting achievable, meaningful goals that guide you on this journey to a life beyond your default. And I really do believe that starting with these steps, you're laying the foundation for a life that's more about serving and giving. And the best part, these steps are easy to integrate into your life. They're doable, practical, and they pave the way for more significant changes down the road. Literally, this might need to be one of the first things that I would hope people would listen to or read to actually activate some of the other conversations that we have had and will have in the future.
George B. Thomas:
But it's about taking that first step and then just continuing to walk step by step towards the life of your dreams, step by step towards a life powered by a servant's heart, step by step towards a life beyond your default.
