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For long-form interviews, news, and commentary about the WordPress ecosystem. This is the companion show to The WP Minute, your favorite 5-minutes of WordPress news every week.
Eric Karkovack (00:01.35)
Okay. All right. Welcome to the WP Minutes June 2026 meetup. I'm Eric Karkovack. My special guest today is Kurt von Ahnen. He's checking in from Central Time Zone. I bet it's hot there, Kurt.
Kurt von Ahnen (00:15.746)
Dude, it is way hot. It's like gonna be it's I think we're gonna hit a hundred today.
Eric Karkovack (00:21.71)
Yeah, we're we're in the nineties already here in Pennsylvania. we're gonna hit a hundred later this week. And Paul is over in Germany. He's visiting us today and he said it's really hot in Germany too. So I think there's no place on the globe safe from from heat right now.
Kurt von Ahnen (00:37.176)
But but it sounds better when people like Paul say it, because they'll say, It's thirty-seven degrees.
Paul Schwind (00:42.766)
37 degrees, yeah. That might be about right. And also the Germans lost in the World Championships, so everyone stays at home now.
Eric Karkovack (00:54.426)
I'm sorry. I maybe Oktoberfest could be doubly exciting this year. I I think just to just to drink the sorrows away from that. before we get started here, I do want to throw it, throw just a thank you to our pillar sponsors. Pressible, Elementor, WP Engine, Hosting.com, Twentyi, Grid Pain, and Jethost. these folks
They really do a great job of supporting the WP Minute, supporting our content. And we can't do what we do without them. So thanks a million to them. So the subject of our meetup this month is really where is your business in 2026? what's the state of things for you? Kurt, I'm gonna start with you. Just what have you noticed about this year? what kind of wins and losses have you have you been experiencing?
Kurt von Ahnen (01:49.344)
Well, I think you know from my other content, I'm a pretty transparent open book guy. we were in an economic winter from December on. It was I mean, it literally, I I would jump onto like the post-status meetup, you know, and everybody's crying the blues about work is slow and there's nothing coming in and people aren't making decisions and companies aren't getting off purchase orders. And I'm not gonna lie, I started to fall into it a little bit. I was like, I guess we're all doomed. but I kept doing the work.
And I think that's like, I think as a business owner, that's the part that's tempting to skip. Right. So I was like, you know, right, wrong, or indifferent, whether I'm seeing results today or not. I gotta get up, I gotta do the work, I gotta, you know, do the posts, do the things. And I did the things. And I I there's I'm a person of faith, so of course I'm gonna give credit to the Lord. But April rolled around, Eric, and we sold a year's worth of work in the month of April. So so then I was like, okay, well, now.
Now that giant boulder's lifted off, let's let's reexamine our processes and see what we what we missed, what we didn't do, what we could have done better, what worked well. And then we we doubled down on some things in May. Not gonna lie, I was really hoping May would duplicate April, but it didn't. And but June, we closed on a few deals that was a direct result of the seed that we had sown in May. And so overall, we're up for the year.
you know for revenue and for the number of projects. So I'm pretty happy about that. it's just there was that really big lull in the middle of the actual, you know, closing the sale, but the process of making the pipeline was longer, but the results were better. And I think that's normal though. When you're when your pipeline value increases in in a monetary way, it should be expected that your pipeline's going to extend in a calendar way as well.
Eric Karkovack (03:45.526)
Yeah, I th that's that's it's great to hear. and it's weird because I I fell into that doom last year too. Like last summer was so slow around here. Like and I this is my twenty-seventh year freelancing, okay? And yeah, I haven't left the house in twenty-seven years. but it I for the first time ever, I felt like the economy actually impacted my business. Like it had never, you know, even like through two thousand eight, I don't remember a slowdown. In fact, I remember things speeding up.
maybe more people were moving online at that time, because you know, we were still in a a paper era. but yeah, I was I was seriously worried for the future of of my business at that point. I thought I might have to get a job. but the last couple of months have actually picked up. I have gotten several leads, a couple new projects that I wasn't expecting. So I feel, you know, much better about things than I than I
did. And I I tried to spend, you know, that downtime being productive, talking to folks, just producing content for my own, you know, enjoyment and hoping other people would see it. and I think that's just been, you know, what would help get me through it. But it it it does show like if you said you just keep doing the work and you keep trying and you, you know, you take the opportunity when you do have downtime to maybe learn or explore other things.
you know, you there isn't a light at the end of the tunnel, so that's good to hear.
Kurt von Ahnen (05:17.57)
The the hardest part as I listened to you talk is like we founded our business in two thousand and eight, by the way, like right in the middle of the pandemic, not pandemic, in the middle the economic crisis. We were like, you know what, we should start a business. And and it worked, like like we were able to sustain ourselves where my corporate position was sal was commission based. And because sales were down and the economy was so horrible, I was standing at a car dealership not making any money. And I thought, well, this is stupid. Why am I coming here to make no money? I could, I could go at home.
make no money, right? And so so I just started doing the website thing and it just grew and it grew and and it went. But I think there's a lot to be said. Like you said, you were still meeting with people, you were still making content, you're still putting your face out there. I think there's a threshold where every person, every individual has to make the decision like it's been too long. This has failed. I've got to move on to something else. But there's also that personal inspiration where you go, I know I'm doing the right thing.
Like I know that I know that I know I'm doing the right thing. So I just need to stick with it and it's gonna pay off. I don't know when, but it's gonna pay off. And I and I think I think history constantly rewards people that put in the work and have the resilience to stick it out.
Eric Karkovack (06:31.266)
Yeah, I mean it and I I think, you know, when people are are down on spending as they were, I think, last year and part of this year, I think it's easy to just get, you know, down on yourself because you don't know, you know, like business has changed, right? The the things that we do for clients has changed and you kind of wonder, man, is anyone ever going to want like a new website again? Or am I just going to continue to collect websites that are broken and have to fix them for people?
'Cause that 'cause that's kind of where things have have gone, right? But, you know, it's it's starting to roll around again where I see people wanting to improve what they have and maybe start over a little bit more, which is great to see because it's something that we've you know, that I thought the business kinda lost over the last couple of years.
Kurt von Ahnen (07:20.738)
Well, and an interesting thing to point out, like you and I both had our our you know economic winters during this, you know, AI boom and things changing. I was an early adopter of etch, HWP with Kevin Geary and his product. So I was I was trying to learn that. I was trying to move forward in that direction. AI, all my clients kept asking me, like, if I vibe code this, would you just add it to my website? I was getting really frustrated because I'm like, No, I'm not we no, we're not doing these things. And
I think there was a distraction point too. Like not only was did it seem like people weren't spending money or there was a a reluctance to spend, but I think there were distractions out there that that kept me from focusing on my core competencies and what really drives my revenue. And when I was able to get more focused and go, wait a minute, I am the e-learning expert guy. Like, like don't forget your niche, Kurt. You know, I like had to remind myself, focus on your niche, do what you do best. You know, you work with Lifter LMS, you know, you you're
Really good in these themes. And I quite honestly just put etch on the back burner, focused on my core competencies. And I feel like that's where the work came from.
Eric Karkovack (08:30.54)
Yeah, it's it that's interesting too, because with the AI stuff happening now, i it almost seems like you just wanna branch out, right? You just wanna do all the things because you see and and we're seeing people doing it everywhere, right? They're all promoting, hey, look what I just vibe coded, look what I just did. I I created Google Docs in ten minutes, you know. That's great, but is it gonna make you money? Is it really going to serve your your existing clients? Is it gonna get you new ones? And really when you think about it, it's the stuff you've been doing.
stuff you're already good at, that's why you are where you are. doesn't mean you can't grow and and and do other things over time, but you know, you you don't also wanna just drop everything at once and say, I'm I'm just on this AI bandwagon. That's all I'm gonna do from here on
Kurt von Ahnen (09:16.44)
Yeah, I agree.
Eric Karkovack (09:18.936)
Paul, what have you seen? I know you're you are a a plug in developer, so what have you noticed so far this year?
Paul Schwind (09:26.958)
I'm a WordPress plugin developer and I have noticed that everything that Kurt said is really correct for multiple WordPress agencies, not just for you Kurt. I've talked to a lot of WordPress agencies because we have made a WordPress plugin that does everything for WordPress images. So you have a renamer and an optimizer and a drawing plugin and a
custom library where you can see where the image is used on your page, all in one single plugin. And we've started developing it three years ago. And three years ago, that seemed like a good idea. And today it seems like it's not a good idea because everyone I talk to just tells me, well, I just write code, everything I need. also it's like,
Multiple of the WordPress agencies I've talked to have said, well, it's hard times for us. Everything's changing. The whole climate is changing. My clients say, well, I can just use AI to quickly print out a website. Why should I go with you? So some people are not willing to test some new ideas with WordPress, but I think WordPress
still has its place even with all this AI. For example, there's still no way to really manage a lot of content with AI. And WordPress provides just that, it's a CMS. And also all of the image optimization and everything is just not, you currently kind of just say, it's done automatically.
Kurt von Ahnen (11:15.288)
Well, it what I think it's so interesting because our markets focus on people that are at the cutting edge, right? So we the loudest voices in our space are like, well, why would I need that? Because I have AI. I can I'm magic. I can do things. I'm I'm the all-knowing Oz. but if we get out of those circles and we look at the general populace, the the general population out there, I'm running into business owners and people left and right that are suffering from.
Know AI fatigue already, and they just want an expert to take the reins and build them something on a budget. And they'll tell you what the budget is. Sometimes it's a great budget, and sometimes it's not such a great budget. But if if I can find those ones that have decent budget and they just want an expert to take the reins, they're my people, right? Because they they like a landscaper wants to mow lawns, right? A coffee shop wants to brew coffee. The you know, we we say these things all the time.
It they're not saying, I wanna I wanna be the next, you know, webmaster. No, they wanna cut lawns and brew coffee. And so if we can be those experts that help the general populace do those things, I think there's always a place for us from the plug-in side and from the agency side.
Eric Karkovack (12:28.652)
Yeah, and Paul, you mentioned about, you know, people wanting to vibe code their own solutions to this. It's I I also think that there's kind of a fallout coming with that because once people, especially people who are not already developers, they don't know what they're doing necessarily with AI, once they have to make changes, once they have to maintain that, once they see what it really means to have software under your care, they
probably will want someone who knows what they're doing. They probably want a plugin that already does these things and has, you know, an expert behind it to support it. you know, because I mean I I can create certain plugins with AI and that's great. but there are certain things like like I always mention WooCommerce to people, but yes, I can create my own version of WooCommerce through AI, but do I want to be responsible for supporting that? Do I want to have to
you know, create extensions for that and manage all that myself. No. I mean I I'd much rather pay a nominal fee for a good extension than spend all of my time, you know, tracking bugs and and support requests and things like that. So I I I think I think people are going to come back around to having experts that care about what they're doing, know what they're doing and can provide support. I just think that's you know, we're going to get back there eventually.
Kurt von Ahnen (13:55.426)
Well, you know, we do that show with Toby, the agency action show. And Toby and I had a conversation in one of the episodes where he was like, Yeah, I can code this out. It just takes twenty hours here and 10 hours there and another 10 hours to to you know to fine tune it and and these things. And he pointed that out. And I said, Okay, but but if that's forty hours of developer time at $200 an hour, that's eight thousand dollars you just spent to make yourself a plug-in.
So an average consumer doesn't want to spend eight grand, whether it's, you know, time or service or whatever, right? They don't want to spend that that equity, whether whatever it is, all right, money or time. That's still like it's eight thousand dollars worth of time. For a couple hundred bucks, I can buy a lifetime version of a comparable plugin and do the job. So for end users, I'm not seeing this whole vibe code thing unl except for hobbyists, but I'm not seeing business people make the decision.
to give up the time for an unknown success when there's known success with unknown product.
Paul Schwind (14:55.778)
Yeah. And even then, even if you put in all of those hours, you still don't know if it's guaranteed that you do it right. Because then there's some structure that will break down in a year, but you don't know if it breaks down in a year. And you do some database changes and then the database slowly corrodes and you only notice it after you've done something for like a year and then everything explodes.
Eric Karkovack (15:25.294)
PHP versions or something like that. I mean, what if you know, there's no guarantee that what you build today is gonna work with the next version of PHP. And but people don't know that. You know, they they don't realize that until they, you know, go to their site and it's broken.
Kurt von Ahnen (15:43.49)
So I I just had an interesting conversation with a young man last night. He said a friend of his told him that he could learn how to make websites and sell websites to make money. And I thought, okay, that sounds very simple. And then he says, So I made a website with AI. I said, Okay, congratulations. I said, How you gonna sell it? And he goes, Well, I don't know. I thought I would ask you. I go, Well, that's what I do for a living, son. So so what what is it that that you're I said, what are you gonna do if
They want to change the website. And he goes, Well, I don't really know how to change the website. I go, Would you just ask AI to make the change? And he goes, I guess. I go, what if your customer didn't like the change and they want to do something different? He goes, I I don't know. I said, son, you need to learn how to use WordPress. Because now you can, you know, you can you can customize, you can, you can do modify, you can add functionality, you can do whatever you need to do. But I I think AI has lured a lot of people in with this false sense of security, like, I could just vibe go to build this thing.
Eric Karkovack (16:32.419)
Do
Kurt von Ahnen (16:40.398)
But I'm like, and then they want to sell those things. And I'm like, okay, but if you sell those things, people are gonna ask for changes. They're gonna ask for a new feature. They're gonna ask for something. And you don't know if what you built is compatible for whatever the change or request is that's forthcoming.
Eric Karkovack (16:57.196)
Yeah, it's the foundational knowledge is still so important because AI I I I and maybe you'll like this analogy, Kurt. I I think of it as a race car. If you have this beautiful Formula One car and you fill it with the cheapest gas and oil from like, you know, the discount store, and and bald tires, it's not gonna corner very well. It's not gonna accelerate very well. You're not gonna get the results you want.
AI is kind of like that. If you don't know what you're doing, yeah, you can probably get something that goes, but it may not go very far, right? So you probably want to have foundational knowledge. That's why I would say anybody wants to learn, you know, web development today, take time, learn HTML, learn CSS, learn whatever languages you need to learn because that's how you're going to get the best results from AI. It's not going to, you know, you have to dictate to AI what you want. It should not be the other way around.
Kurt von Ahnen (17:54.338)
Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Schwind (17:56.716)
Also the interface is just better with some software. For example, we have an image renaming plugin and a friend of ours told us, I don't need an image renaming plugin and just use AI. And then some days later he asked us some question about the image renaming plugin. And we were like, well, okay. So you're using the image renaming plugin. And he was like, yeah, because it's just more convenient to type it in. And I think, I think, well.
People say you can build a website with AI, but you have to really, really know what you want. And if you still use software like WordPress or some plugins, then they can guide you in the correct direction.
Eric Karkovack (18:43.362)
That's right. I mean, Kurt, you were talking about, you know, the hobbyist. You know, there were there's always been that DIY spirit, which is great and people want to do things that way. But if you're looking to make money, if you're, you know, a serious business, it's like, do you really want this on your plate? Do you want to be the one responsible for this? Wouldn't you rather just hire somebody to save you the headaches that you're going to endure trying to do this yourself?
Kurt von Ahnen (19:07.0)
Yeah. And let let's just be honest, I'm at that kind of painful growth stage where I have to figure out do I want to keep using a contractor model or do I want to add, you know, a real W 2 employee to the mix? And when you start talking about scaling and adding people, and then and it's like, well, how did I build this? Or how did I and you got you know, you have to reverse engineer half the stuff that you do on a daily basis, right? And so if you had to pour that into a team or
or into other people, to me, it makes so much more sense if we've got best practices in place with known quantities. So like I'm I'm very much sold out to the idea that I think the value of my agency is that, yeah, there's 70,000 plugins available in the repository, but we've got 20 or 25 that are on our known, you know, good, you know, whitelist that we can use and and build you a a good, reliable, competent stack that performs well and
There's no question marks. It's like, what's the purpose of your business? You sell this knick-knack. Great. We're going to build you a site that sells these knick-knacks. I I think there's a huge distraction in the market right now where people are trying to build stuff that's new or on the cutting edge or something crazy when people just want to sell the knick-knack.
Eric Karkovack (20:22.316)
Yeah, yeah. I mean I I look at these AI site builders and you know, they they they promise so much. Just tell us your industry and like they know your industry. Well, they don't know your industry. They don't know your customer. They don't, you know, they don't take the time to to really un you know, under be able to understand that. because I may sell widgets, but my widgets may be a little bit different. They may be in a niche that other widgets aren't. So I I I think, you know, you
To have the human connection, to listen to the business owner that says, Here's who my market is, this is what they buy, this is what they like, this is what they don't like. I think there's so much value still in that that, you know, i I think again, where I think we're just gonna see that cycle back around and maybe we're already starting to see it because people are building things with AI and maybe not being as happy with the results as they thought they might be.
Kurt von Ahnen (21:20.578)
Well, to your point, we consult with a lot of people that do membership and e-learning websites. Even though it's like a similar stack and it's a similar product, they all have different markets. They all have their own niches, right? And each of those marketing platforms, as we help them launch, they all have different degrees of success. Right. And if we were to listen to the AI model or or you know conventional thinking of like, you know, Russell Brunson and his potato gun.
You know, we would say, just plug in these tools and you're gonna have success. That's not how it works. Like in the real world, you've got to sample things, you've got to A and B test things, you've got to, okay, it worked for this customer, let's try this. that didn't work for you. Let's try something different. And it's I I still think there's a certain amount of shock for from the customers in this marketplace, the the membership and and e-learning space, where
the it's almost like when you go to have a baby and the doctor acts like it's the first time they've ever delivered a baby, but you know they've done hundreds, it's it's like it's because each event is a little bit different.
Eric Karkovack (22:23.246)
Yeah. And you know, I I just had in mind the the whole issue. I don't know if you if you guys saw the Ford Motor Company recently you know outs got rid of their engineers. Many of their engineers were were fired so that they could adopt AI. And it failed miserably. They've hired they're hiring engineers back. So even companies at that scale, you know, they're they're starting to come around to the fact that okay, this cost us a ton of money.
It didn't do a better job than the humans. And we still need the human involvement to make good decisions. So like when you think of it on that scale, it's like, and I I don't want to cede myself to the bots. I don't want you know, and I I don't want clients to think that that's the best outcome for them either. W once they start seeing that they really are on their own, AI is not a human. It is not, you know, it it does not live and breathe. It does not you know, know who you are.
Really, other than the few things it reads off of your social feed. this this is all, you know, we're gonna I think we're just gonna keep seeing this again and again. And then the AI prices keep rising. companies are, you know, who was it? there was a company not long ago I read that had already blown through their budget for the year because everybody in their company was told to use AI for all these menial tasks and they've blown out their token budget for the entire year. So
Yeah, I mean, at least with us, with humans, you can get some cost certainty, right? we can tell you how much things are going to cost and then, you know, if if something changes, then we can have a a productive discussion about that. we're not just going to shock you with, you know, a fifty thousand dollar token bill or whatever, you know, these people are are facing.
Paul Schwind (24:12.118)
Yeah. Do you know what the promise of SQL, the database language was when it was introduced? People were saying like, okay, we make a program language that is so simple, managers can write it and then the managers will just look it up, everything. And then we don't need developers anymore. We can fire all of the developers because all of the managers can just look up what they want. And it's similar to that, I think.
It's like, well, okay, you can, you can in principle do pretty much everything you want with AI, but do you want to? I don't know.
Eric Karkovack (24:51.82)
It's interesting. It it just seems like one the same cycle over and again, over and again. I I I see it I saw it with social media. There were years ago where where they said, all you need is a Facebook page. You don't need a website anymore. And what did Facebook do? They pulled the rug out from everybody and started charging people to s charging business owners to share their posts with their entire audience. Like I have a hundred people following me, only three or four actually see my post unless I pay Facebook. Like
So your website is still something you own. So maybe that's why things are on this uptick that we're getting back to that end of the cycle. I don't know. But it seems like that's that's what I'm witnessing so far.
Kurt von Ahnen (25:34.946)
Well, it seems like, you know, what the question was, you know, what's the state of business, right? Halfway through the twenty twenty-six. from an agency perspective, I'd say there's there's definitely hope on the horizon. I think there's some scale and some growth. but I think it takes more than like hanging your tile. Like it takes more than just buying a laptop, connecting to the internet and telling people you make websites. I I think people are getting smarter than that now. They're getting a little more
Critical about how they make their decisions and who they use. And so you've got to use the tools. Like I've done some local SEO work here. I've spoken at the schools, I speak at the high school, the college, I've given a couple lunch and learns at the local chamber of commerce. so locally, I've really put myself out there, right? And so if I would have just moved to town and told people, yeah, I moved my agency here from California, I don't think we'd have had the traffic that we had on those good months.
So I I think it's really, really important that people really embrace the idea that if they're in business, it's business. Whether you're a freelancer or an agency or whatever, like if it's a business, treat it like a business and you know, really put in the work, do the reps and and track, you have to track what works and what doesn't work for your demographic and your niche.
Eric Karkovack (26:55.18)
Yeah, I mean it it's really about, you know, building that reputation, building relationships, especially at a local level, but also, yeah, but also, you know, internationally. When you're talking about a plugin developer, I mean you're you're you're courting people to install your your your product from all over the world. So but you have to build that reputation. I I think, you know, maybe in that realm it's a it is about customer support and you know being willing to to you know publish and put yourself out there a little bit.
and I I mean, Kurt, you you do so many podcasts and things like that. I mean, you why and that works, right? I mean, you become an authority on on a lot of subjects. And you know, that can't help but, you know, get you a little more recognition w when people are, you know, approaching your agency. Yeah.
Kurt von Ahnen (27:44.642)
Yeah. It doesn't hurt.
Paul Schwind (27:45.098)
Currently it seems to me like the WordPress plugin directory is the main thing that matters for plugin developers. It's like, okay, we've been briefly in the top, I think 10 for searching for image renaming. And then we had lots of downloads and then we dropped down again and then we had none.
So it's like, we also did email marketing and we called people, we did Reddit posts and SEO on our own. And it's like, none of those things seem to really matter as much as the WordPress plugin directory, because it is the one way where people trust the plugins and want to download the plugins. So it's a bit-
It seems like it is a bit more simple for platform developers currently. We are still trying a lot more things to gain the initial traction, but it's really hard because people will just say, well, there already is an image renaming plugin on WordPress with 60,000 downloads. Why should I use yours? And I'm like, because it's more solid.
And because there's a whole package with everything in one and they are like, well, maybe I don't care that much about how many plugins I have installed. then I'm like, well, okay.
Eric Karkovack (29:14.626)
Yeah.
Kurt von Ahnen (29:14.894)
I'm I'm interested from your perspective, Paul. Do you do you feel like your growth, your scale for your plugin is better rooted in agency communication or in one-to-one consumer? Like like instead of like there's there's like product to business and then there's product to consumer, right? What where where do you see the scaling opportunity for a plugin like yours?
Paul Schwind (29:43.796)
I think talking to businesses is more effective because that's where most people are. I mean, most people who really want a professional bot set will still go to a WordPress agency. I'm pretty sure about that. So if I want my plugin to be installed on sites where it really matters, then I should go to WordPress agencies because they have the customers that...
whose websites do really matter. So I think that's the best way. And also you can, it's much more difficult to find the people who might be your direct customers. And then they just have one WordPress page and they are like, well, okay, I have my one WordPress page, here it is. And you're like, okay, here, buy my five euro plug-in. He's like, well, okay, here are five euros and that's just not worth your time.
Kurt von Ahnen (30:42.03)
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. So the market for you, is it like going to CloudFest CloudFest and WordCamp and and places like that? Or is it like podcast based? How how do you meet more agencies?
Paul Schwind (30:57.202)
Currently we are trying online marketing, SEO, emails and phoning people. That's the things we do right now. We also wanted to try to talk to YouTubers to ask them to review our plugin, but it's pretty much impossible to reach them.
Kurt von Ahnen (31:04.248)
Nice.
Eric Karkovack (31:18.312)
I would say, you know, maybe add add your own YouTube videos, like like show demos. you know, because a lot of times people, if they don't see how something works, you know, they're not gonna pay attention to it. When you show them how this plugin makes their job easier, especially like, you know, I I know like I've Kurt, I'm sure you've had this too, where you get a bunch of project assets from a from a client and the names are all random. You know, image five, ten, tw you know, whatever.
you know directly from their from their phone, it's like, okay, we need some sanity for for this, you know, for this naming convention. Maybe if you can show people that and then point back to that on your website, on your blog, even in your WordPress.org listing, because people put videos on there. You can embed a YouTube video, I believe. So those type of things I I think will help you sell as much as anything. You know, because once an agency owner
sees what you have to offer, they can decide if it's something that, you know, is worth their time then. because you can tell them all you want, right? And and that's great, but showing them, I think, is also a big deal these days.
Kurt von Ahnen (32:29.74)
Yeah, and like a free mini course that people could get quick tutorials on how to use it. the mini course becomes your lead magnet. I think back about, you know, my work with Lifter LMS over the last decade and all like not all, but a lot of their social content is like how to this, how to that, how to the other, how to this, and that really brings people in.
Paul Schwind (32:53.782)
Okay, that sounds great. You should try that. Currently we are in full on marketing mode. We try everything we can. It's like we've set ourselves some deadline where we want to, where we at least want some results, some downloads. And until then we just do everything it takes. Full time, head against the wall.
Eric Karkovack (33:17.878)
Yeah, yeah, I mean try, you know, try different things and and see what works for you. Cause it you know, it's not always gonna be the same formula. It it's so much depends on the product and who your market is, you know. I'm gonna stop recording at this point, but we can obviously keep the conversation going here. But I do want to say thanks to everyone watching today and for for everybody who who came in to see us. And we'll be announcing more member meetups. So definitely visit the WP Minute dot com. Get all the details there. Thanks everyone.