The Side Quest Book Club Podcast

Hey Adventurers! Today, we continue our dive into Fight Club by Chuck Palahniuk. For this final episode, Jess, our favorite "Chuck P" scholar, joins us for our usual guest episode overview. Over three episodes, we've delved into this groundbreaking novel. We hope you've enjoyed it.

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(00:00) Intro
(01:12) Overview of Fight Club
(04:04) Book vs. Movie: Key Differences
(10:17) Exploring Fight Club 2 and 3
(23:18) Creating Our Own Fight Club Rules
(28:09) Books for Women vs. Books for Men
(35:52) The Concept of a Women's Fight Club
(43:04) Character Analysis: Marla vs. The Narrator
(48:20) The Importance of Third Spaces
(56:10) The Role of Community in Modern Life
(01:04:48) Quotable Moments and Outro 

Creators and Guests

Host
Jonathan
Host
Slava
Digital Strategist. Co-Host. Aspiring writer of stories.

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

Jonathan:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good night, wherever you're tuning in. We are Slava and Jonathan bringing you the SideQuest podcast where we talk about character development, stories, and all things that are world building. And we occasionally take SideQuest because, frankly, Welcome back, side questers. Lava and Jess back on the show.

Slava:

Hey. Hey.

Jonathan:

Hi. Happy to have Jess on for another Chuck Palahniuk book and bringing so many extra thoughts. We had a good little chat here before we hit record, and I can't wait to share that with all of you and let you hear all of her rants because they are some juicy ones. Slava, do you wanna give us a quick rundown of the author and book, and then we'll jump right in?

Slava:

Yes. So as you have guessed by the title, this is part 3 of Fight Club, and this is a novel that follows a story of an unnamed narrator told largely through flashbacks who is struggling with insomnia. The narrator finds solace in attending support groups for terminal illnesses where he can cry and finally fall asleep. The piece is disrupted by Marla Singer, a fellow imposter, leading to his insomnia as return. This man is also dissatisfied with his life, corporate life in general, until he meets Tyler Durden, a a charismatic man who introduces him to Fight Club, a secret group where men release their frustrations through physical fights.

Slava:

Narrator and Tyler become close, but Tyler's relationship with Marla triggers jealousy in the narrator. Tyler's influence escalates to the creation of a group called project mayhem, a movement of destructive and anarkic anarchic? Is that the word? Anarkistic? Anarkistic?

Jess:

Yeah. That seems right.

Slava:

A movement of destructive and anarchistic acts. As Fight Club and Project Mayhem grow, the narrator realizes that he and Tyler are the same person, with Tyler emerging when the narrator sleeps. Determined to stop Tyler, the narrator confronts him atop a building rigged with explosives. He shoots himself in the face to rid himself of Tyler's control. Surviving the ordeal, the narrator awakens in a hospital where he converses with staff who subtly revealed their loyalty to project mayhem, leaving the future ambiguous.

Slava:

And this was brought to us by Charles Michael or Chuck Palaniuk, who is an American novelist and describes his work as transgressional or transgressive fiction. He's published 90 novels, 3 nonfiction books, 2 graphic novels, and 2 adult coloring books, as well as numerous short stories. And this is his first published novel.

Jonathan:

Wait. I don't remember that he published coloring books.

Jess:

They're like short story. I think they're both are there novellas? 1 might be a short story book and one is, like, a novella. I own them. I have not read them.

Jonathan:

Are they set in any of his other worlds, like, Fight Club, or is it something, like, totally by its standalone?

Jess:

They're not Fight Club related.

Jonathan:

Okay.

Jess:

Although, like, I don't think he has a book that is in a different universe that we couldn't exist in.

Slava:

Yeah.

Jess:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

I

Jess:

feel like fight club could be in the same universe as survivor, as choke, and invisible monsters. Modern day. Are very similar.

Jonathan:

Yeah. Interesting stuff.

Jess:

But fight club 23 are the graphic novels.

Jonathan:

Yes. And I look forward to you

Jess:

I'll be bringing that up

Jonathan:

Yes.

Jess:

And how bad they are to save anyone time from reading them.

Jonathan:

Please do.

Jess:

Unless they wanna get hate read. I like to hate read.

Jonathan:

I think you've mentioned that before.

Jess:

Yeah. I mentioned it, Head Full of Ghosts, because I read it, like, so many times.

Jonathan:

Let's talk about the the differences here, because it's something that Jess brought up before the show, the differences between the book and the movie. So anyone who finished reading the book and has been listening along, there's definitely some clear differences. I think the clearest one is the ending is super different from book to movie, but there are other minor things as well. Slava mentioned it in one of the previous episodes about the line, I wanna have your abortion versus I I haven't been screwed like that since grade school. And what other ones, Jess, stick out to you in that comparison from from book to movie?

Jess:

Well, there's some quotes that are just I think they're applied to, like, a different person, Marla in general. I'd like her way better in the book. In the movie, she's like, she's cool, she's sexy, but she's not the way in the book, she's way more of a a sympathetic character. And she plays a way bigger part in the book than she does in the movie.

Slava:

And the interactions between the narrator and his boss are flushed out more in the book too too.

Jess:

Yes. Yeah. And, obviously, it was after he stopped working at the place. That was the end of his boss in the movie, not in the book, obviously.

Slava:

In the movie.

Jess:

Yep. Yeah. So it's the the movie's a little more tame, actually. They couldn't put in, like, all the lists of I I don't know if you guys talked about this in the other app. They couldn't list all those bomb instructions, explosive instructions

Slava:

Yeah.

Jess:

The same way. Because I think they're all legit because I googled it, and they said they were all I was trying not to Google too much about

Jonathan:

You don't wanna get put on a list?

Jess:

Building Yeah. I was worried that I wouldn't be able to fly. But this was pre 911, so I didn't know what they could get away with back then.

Jonathan:

Clearly not much.

Jess:

Yeah. Not yeah.

Jonathan:

Yeah. The one I remember from the movie for descriptions was the orange juice concentrate and gasoline. Yeah. That's the one that I remember distinctly, but I don't recall them going into details on any of the other ones.

Jess:

But that's part of his writing style, Chuck P, because I can't pronounce his last name even if you guys say it a 1000000 times. He always likes to, like, teach the reader something.

Jonathan:

Yes.

Jess:

It's in it's in all the book. Oh, like, all the cleaning methods and survivor and the

Slava:

stealing stuff. Yeah.

Jess:

Except for, like, in this, I have not done I don't think I've done anything that he teaches you in this book. Like, stole, like, from Survivor. Right. I kinda love the livening. I kinda I feel like we should do it.

Slava:

I have some lie in the basement.

Jess:

That'd be pretty cool.

Jonathan:

Well, this took a turn. Alright. Audience, line up if you wanna get the fight club kiss

Slava:

From Slava and Jess.

Jess:

As a very self destructive teen, that was, like, so cool to me and still is as a self destructive person.

Jonathan:

You wanna have labels on your skin

Jess:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

For Project Mayhem?

Jess:

Well, I don't want, like, a Fight Club tattoo. Chuck p makes fun of that, kind of, in the in Fight Club 2, the graphic novel. Oh, definitely. People got Fight Club, yeah, tattoos.

Jonathan:

Like, they missed the point?

Jess:

I have a tattoo. It's abandon that hope. It's kinda the same message.

Jonathan:

From Dante's Inferno? Is it No.

Jess:

It's not abandon all hope you enter here, not that. It's abandon that hope. It's from, although when you said Dante's Inferno, I'm like, that's not from American Psycho? Because it it also starts abandon all hope you who enter here.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

Jess:

Oh, but it's from what's that video game? Alice the Madness Returns.

Slava:

Okay.

Jess:

But it's kinda the same idea, losing all hope is freedom, you know, that whole message, if you were to ruin everything, then you could rebuild.

Slava:

Yeah. Very Nietzsche From nothing. I'm sorry. No. Nietzsche has a line somewhere that the blessed man is the one who forgets.

Jess:

Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm only familiar with that also from a movie, not from

Slava:

anything you've heard from. The Jim Carrey movie?

Jess:

Yes. I love that movie.

Slava:

So do I.

Jess:

Eternal sunshine and the spotless line.

Slava:

Yeah. Which is a line from a poet from the 1700, 1800. It's like a long poem.

Jonathan:

Yeah. So this is kinda what I was getting at Slava with the, because we're on the abandon all hope idea at the moment, is that, I believe, harks back to well, definitely Dante's Inferno, but I think it goes back further. I think it goes back to Greek and Roman mythology for descent into hell.

Slava:

Yeah. Who's that guy that had to push a boulder up the mountain? Sisyphus. It has connections to Sisyphus. The movie that we just referenced, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless.

Slava:

Spotless mind, there's Sisyphus overtones in it, and I only know this because I watched an interview with the director. Okay. Nice. Life repeats.

Jess:

Yes. Yeah. It has to.

Jonathan:

It does.

Jess:

You know, maybe, again, it was maybe my young mindset. It did not occur to me that they were of this is just me being dumb. It's not really a huge difference because they exist in the book and the movie. In the movie, it didn't seem so much like terrorism as much as it seemed like, you know, cute little pranks that involve explosives

Slava:

Boys will be boys.

Jess:

Ruining damage. Yeah. And I was like, oh, that looks like fun, but I didn't it did not dawn on me as terrorism were in the book. I was like, oh, this is terrorism for sure. And then in fight club 2, there's, you know, there's more terrorism.

Jess:

And and where it kinda pissed me off in fight club 2 more because they were talking about you know, they do talk about this on ruining modern art and how we have seen that happening. And every time someone ruins, like, whatever they I know it's been Van Gogh. I don't know who else. I I like like, we should just shoot those

Slava:

people. Fair.

Jess:

Oh, oh, like, just shoot that ass.

Jonathan:

Destroy art in museums and stuff for

Jess:

They can destroy modern art, but don't destroy the classics.

Jonathan:

The classics. Yeah. That it's never made sense to me that that's been

Jess:

Mad.

Jonathan:

The go to where it's like, oh, we're gonna destroy, you know, Da Vinci's Mona Lisa. It's like, why?

Jess:

But they did that in Fight Club 2 with their blood.

Jonathan:

Their blood?

Jess:

Yeah. I think they nicked their artery in such a way and sprayed I feel like one of them died from it. Oh, yeah. I don't like Fight Club 2 at all.

Jonathan:

Why don't you give us a quick rundown of Fight Club 2 and 3?

Jess:

I'll spoil some. I did not read 3 yet. I own it, but I have not read it. So Fight Club 2, Marla and the narrator who has a name, Sebastian, which is I think one of his names from I don't know if it was in the movie or the book where he used that at in one of his, name tags, so probably the movie. They're married.

Jess:

Marla is no longer my favorite character because she's an asshole who starts switching out his meds that I guess have been keeping Tyler Durden at bay and for to have sex. For because the sex is boring.

Jonathan:

Oh, so for her own pleasure, she

Jess:

Yes. Without like, she didn't she didn't think of the ramifications of, like, what could possibly happen. Kinda makes her seem dumb. She also was, like, a big character. It's kind of an all over the place thing because she goes back to support groups.

Jess:

And she's at one for those kids that have that protein that ages them rapidly, progeria progeria

Slava:

Okay.

Jess:

Or something.

Jonathan:

Sure.

Jess:

Turns out there's a faker among them that isn't just her. It's Khloe. Khloe's not dead. Yeah. I'm spoiling it.

Jonathan:

That's

Jess:

fine. Not dead for whatever reason.

Jonathan:

But wait. She's not dead in Fight Club 2?

Jess:

She's not dead, which makes no sense. That takes a lot of meaning from the first one. Yeah. Marla wanted I guess she would thought he was not because I guess nothing changed for the narrator Sebastian. He I'm assuming he has a dead end job.

Jess:

He has a He I'm assuming he has a dead end job. He has a house in the suburbs, and they have a child together.

Jonathan:

They have a kid? They have

Jess:

a kid who is also obviously Tyler's kid. But then Tyler, they kinda undo the whole split personality thing, and Tyler is like a mind virus. He's not, like, his psyche split to do what, you know, the narrator truly wanted to do and wasn't even aware that he wanted to do. He could somehow and he's infected other people in that family tree. And they have, like the the art is nice and well, not this one I'm about to describe because there's sperm in it.

Jess:

It was like a family tree with, like, little spur it was disgusting. Sperm. I told you guys before we started that, Chuck p is also in the graphic novel for, like the meta commentary. Oh, yeah. He wrote it.

Jess:

He didn't draw it, but, like, he wrote it.

Jonathan:

Right.

Jess:

And he has his writing group that he talks about all the time at interviews there, like, helping him out to how to resolve the story. And it's awful. Chuck p, I've seen in a lot of interviews. I love him. He's not very pretentious.

Jess:

He's just a good storyteller. But him in the graphic novel, I was like, he said he was annoying. I told you guys I don't remember if I told Saba. Yeah. He compared yeah.

Jess:

He compared, Tyler Durden to being as culturally relevant as Santa Claus.

Jonathan:

That's a weird in the book?

Jess:

On Fight Club 2. I don't know if they're trying to get rid of Tyler Durden because, like, he's become such a huge cultural or this is how I took it. Fight Club is very popular, but not like Santa Claus popular. Like, Santa Claus is never gonna escape get out of the cultural landscape. I don't know if we're gonna be talking about Tyler Durden in a 100 years from now.

Jonathan:

Right. Probably not.

Jess:

I was like, that probably someone should have told you that was a line that should have been taken out, or I don't know if it'd be a line. It's about a series of pictures. But I was I saw someone else reference that because I looked up all the shitty because it is not a highly reviewed book, Fight Club 2. Even and you think that diehard fans would pretend to like it like I wanted to like it?

Slava:

Yeah. Yeah. I I I agree with your assessment of it being a rage read. Now that you've described it

Jonathan:

Yeah.

Slava:

If I ever read it, it's gonna be a hate read.

Jess:

And Bob's alive too, I think.

Slava:

Bitch is alive.

Jess:

Yeah. I don't remember why. What? They they explained Khloe being alive. What?

Jess:

I don't remember what if Bob says anything, but they do a close-up of his tits. Yeah. At first, you're like nice, and then you're like, ew.

Jonathan:

At first, you're like nice. Okay.

Jess:

Yeah. Nice. Those are Okay.

Jonathan:

How do you really feel, Jess? Yeah. That's I just okay. I had to look it up because I I didn't know there was a Fight Club 2. Yeah.

Jonathan:

I'm just kind of at a loss for words in terms of why there would be such such distinct retcons of things that happened, like, Chloe's alive, Robert Paulson is alive, I guess.

Jess:

They bring up the the quote that was changed in the movie. She wants to have Tyler's abortion versus

Jonathan:

In 5 Club 3, they bring it up?

Jess:

Yeah. Versus because he's I think Chuck P's talking to Tyler Durden, I think. Yeah. Is that what it was? It was hard to remember something that made no sense.

Jonathan:

Yeah. It doesn't make sense even hearing it.

Jess:

I don't recommend it.

Slava:

We can blame Chelsea Kane.

Jess:

Yeah. Yeah. She's one of them.

Slava:

Yeah. She's the one that convinced Palaniuk to continue Fight Club in comics.

Jonathan:

What?

Slava:

Yeah.

Jess:

I think she's one of the one in the writing thing.

Slava:

Yeah. Oh,

Jonathan:

from her writing group?

Slava:

Yep. Yep.

Jess:

Which they show in the comic, and she's one of them. She's the one I didn't like, I feel. I don't like any of them. I hated them all.

Slava:

Debuted in 2015.

Jess:

Which is weird because there's a lot of terrorism in it. I guess it didn't matter.

Jonathan:

Very strange.

Slava:

It takes 10 years after the events of the first novel. Sebastian and Marla are married with a son. Sebastian works a do nothing office job again at a military contractor company called RISE or Die. RISE

Jess:

Oh, yeah.

Slava:

Spelled with a z. Marla has grown tired of suburban life, resurrects Tyler Durden by replacing her husband's medication with placebos so she could have an affair with Tyler. Tyler has other plans and burns down the family's house and apparently kills their son as a result.

Jess:

Wow. Dead. He's not dead.

Slava:

But apparently kills him. So yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan:

Yeah. That feels less purposeful in at least from the summary.

Jess:

It's all over the place.

Jonathan:

Yeah. So I hate read what you said.

Jess:

When I read Fight Club 3, I'll tell you about it.

Slava:

Please. Well, in Fight Club 3, I won't spoil anything because I'm looking at the plot. In Fight Club 2, he also returns to his childhood home, and chaos ensues there.

Jess:

Well, they show him as a child. That's what I remember.

Slava:

Yeah.

Jess:

But, yeah, I remember him being a a child or something. But I'm kinda getting him confused for his own child because they to me, the they they looked alike.

Slava:

Right. And then he starts a new group called Project Chaos after a speech from the head of the recruitment center about how men have lost all their role models due to feminism making it impossible for men to hold positions of power without being falsely accused of rape by vindictive women. Then Tyler tries to rape Marla. Marla flees town to discover a wide variety of Fight Club spin off groups have formed around quilting, creative writing, and film viewing. Oh, yeah.

Slava:

So they started podcasts all inspired by Tyler and Fight Club.

Jonathan:

Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. So there's men's quilting things, or is it, like, women's No.

Slava:

It's men's quilting. Fight Club's where men quilt. And they But it's not a fight club then? No. But sit

Jess:

They listed all these well, she's looking for I cannot remember if it was him or her that was looking for fight clubs. And then they listed, like, everything that was kinda similar to fight club, but fight club like, they named their group based off of fight club. So there was a quilting club. Can't remember any of the other ones. There was a film yeah.

Slava:

And then Marla gets help from a child with Progyria, and she convinces the Magic Wand Foundation to give her resources to kill dictators and heads of the Middle East.

Jess:

What is mag what's that thing but in that world? I was like, is it not based on something?

Jonathan:

Dictators and kill them As from a Make A Wish Foundation?

Jess:

They asked for, like, explosives and guns, like, all these little wrinkled children.

Jonathan:

Is it end where it's, like, hey, this was all just a dream or a psychotic episode? Because that's what it sounds like.

Jess:

I don't even remember that.

Slava:

Well, it gets more fever dream ish. At the compound that Sebastian works, ties between ISIS and Project Mayhem are revealed when a member of Project Mayhem is given his assignment as an ISIS suicide bomber, which implies that Tyler is behind ISIS as part of his desire to destabilize the Middle East

Jess:

Yeah.

Slava:

As part of his plans for global anarchy. What is going on?

Jess:

I think its rating on Goodreads is pretty low. There are a lot of 5 star reviews for people who didn't read it yet. They were just, like, excited about it.

Jonathan:

Sure.

Jess:

Okay. Read more of the 5 star to see what they were thinking.

Slava:

Yeah. Tyler also makes new rules. You can no longer hit Tyler in the face in Fight Club. That's a new rule. I don't remember that.

Slava:

Meanwhile, Marla and her ally, who reveals herself to be an elderly midget woman pretending to be a child suffering from progeria for attention

Jess:

That's Khloe. Yeah.

Slava:

And they are comp But

Jess:

I don't remember her being a midget.

Slava:

They are confronted by female mercenaries working for Rise or Die Whatever. In the Middle East and apparently are blown up by missile strikes ordered by the miss mercenaries.

Jess:

Yeah. And then he thinks she's dead. But then she's fine. I don't remember. Again, it's such a mess.

Jess:

It's hard to keep it straight. That's it's a very ambitious

Jonathan:

This feels like a series tucked into a graphic novel because this is not this is not as long as, like, Watchmen. Right? Like, Watchmen's like a nice thick graphic novel.

Jess:

No. This is not this isn't as long.

Slava:

How? It ends in a metafictional ending according to this, plot, overview, but Palaniuk himself is shown to be running the story of Fight Club 2 by a group of fellow comic book writers and friends, but stuff happens. And then here's what I wanted to read. Palynuk and Tyler walk on the beach, and Palynuk claments the integrity of stories and art. Tyler asks what happens next, and Palynuk describes the fictional world of Fight Club 3.

Slava:

Marla is pregnant once again by Tyler and will have an abortion. Tyler shoots Palynuk in the head, happily proclaiming he's going to be a father.

Jonathan:

Sounds like a psychotic episode. It yes. The entire thing.

Jess:

That will somehow affect the child. I don't I don't remember. It's dumb, though. But, like, a lot of people did not like didn't like it.

Jonathan:

Understandable. It's a

Slava:

There's a shit It's a different book. Shit story.

Jess:

It just ruins a lot of the first book, but, like, most sequels are not a good idea ever. Like, use unless you're unless you wrote the first book with the intent. Right. Like, any fantasy series, they wanna continue the story so there's room to continue the story. This was, I feel like, sounds bad, but kind of the opposite of Fight Club, which is kinda cashing in on that consumerism.

Jess:

They thought everyone was gonna like Fight Club by regurgitating Fight Club.

Slava:

I figured out why Marla and Robert Paulson come back.

Jess:

Khloe.

Slava:

Khloe and Robert Paulson come back. The fans in world, maybe out world, but this plot overview says the fans write their own ending in fight club 2 resurrecting Robert Paulson and everyone from the bunker that is supposedly hiding there because there's a nuclear holocaust?

Jess:

What? Fans are all outside like an angry mob covered in tattoos that he's making fun of them. That's the only funny part. And they're there demanding that, I guess.

Jonathan:

I feel like you did you're just making more things up to me.

Jess:

Because I can't just not like it. I'm not also telling it the right way. It's part of why. Because it's a mess that I can't and I didn't give a shit enough to remember it. I was just like, this is stupid.

Jonathan:

I don't think it's gonna be coherent even if I read it.

Jess:

No. No. Because I I'm smart enough, and I don't get it.

Jonathan:

And just by having to say that sentence means that it wasn't written in a coherent way. Your audience should not have to wonder and guess what the story is.

Jess:

Because it's not yeah. He's not that kind of writer. But you have to, like, be able

Jonathan:

to Correct.

Jess:

This mean? It's it should be I mean, Fight Club is very a very straightforward novel. Some people I did read criticism of Fight Club, the original, and some people were like, didn't understand what was going on. I'm like, wow. Like, it tells you everything going

Slava:

on. Right.

Jess:

I guess the way it opens, Fight Club, the one that we're reviewing, opens. He does say a bunch of things that don't have anything to do with each other, but it gets you intrigued to continue reading. Let me see. Like, what's the first? Tyler gets me a job as a waiter.

Jess:

After that, Tyler's pushing a gun in my mouth and saying the first step to internal life is you have to die. For a long time though, Tyler and I were best friends. Yeah. That's all over the place, but, like, if you just keep reading, it explains it all. Right.

Jess:

Hard to understand even though it is very fast paced.

Jonathan:

Right.

Jess:

And that's why I like the writing without yeah.

Jonathan:

Okay. So Fight Club 2, not worth the read.

Jess:

Or maybe if you have nothing else to do.

Jonathan:

Yes. Yes, chef. Fight Club 3, jury's still out. Wow. Slava, bring us to a side quest.

Jonathan:

Let's do a quick transition here.

Slava:

So what rules would you guys make up if you were running a fight club? Obviously, we can't talk about fight club, and we can't hit Tyler in the face, but that's for his fight club. The 3 of us have started our own fight clubs. What's one rule that you would add to the litany of rules that fight club has?

Jonathan:

Alright. Let me reread the rules real quick, make sure I don't forget them so that we have some context, both ourselves and the audience. The first rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club. The third rule of Fight Club is if someone else stop, goes limp, or taps out, the fight is over.

Jonathan:

4th rule, only 2 guys to a fight. 5th rule, one fight at a time, fellas. 6th rule, no shirts, no shoes. 7th rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. The 8th and final rule, if this is your first night at fight club, you have to fight.

Jonathan:

So we're gonna make rules 9, 10, and 11 together.

Slava:

Jess, what's your fight club rule?

Jess:

Well, it was gonna be don't mess up my face.

Slava:

But Tyler stole it.

Jess:

It wouldn't make any sense. Don't mess up my hair. I don't know. I'm not a fighter. That's part of the why I could never really be in fight club.

Jonathan:

And, Slava, did you say you wanted us to make real ones or obnoxious ones?

Slava:

Oh, mine's kind of silly, but you can do anything you want.

Jonathan:

Okay, Slava. Go first then.

Slava:

So all fight club meetings must end with a group hug to ensure no hard feelings.

Jess:

Oh, I love that.

Slava:

Wow. They're gonna hug it out.

Jonathan:

Wow. That's obnoxious, actually.

Slava:

Yeah. A group hug too.

Jonathan:

Once a year, fight clubs need to have a Super Bowl event where it's a knife fight between the 2 guys.

Jess:

Oh. To the death? Well Did someone tap out for that?

Jonathan:

Yeah. If if their arm goes limp

Jess:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Or another body part.

Jess:

If they lose blood? Yeah. I don't know.

Jonathan:

Tough to have a group hug after that, though. Hey. Can you not get your blood on me at the moment? Be great. Thanks.

Jess:

Oh, okay. I won. They have to recite poetry before. Like, make it really meaningful.

Slava:

Yeah.

Jess:

Something like, they they think of they think about why they fight. Like, that, that poem you read at the wedding, Slava.

Slava:

Oh, if

Jess:

by Kipling? Is it Kipling? Kipling. Yeah. Oh, that would that's really epic.

Slava:

Yeah. It's a very stoic poem.

Jonathan:

Oh, my gosh. Well, don't worry, Jess. According to these rules, you can't participate in Fight Club. Only 2 guys to avoid.

Jess:

That's fine because, like, that's not how I deal with my anger. I cry when I'm angry.

Slava:

Yeah. And all poems must rhyme and have meter, or there's no fight.

Jonathan:

Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah.

Slava:

Woah. What about Robert Frost? We're making up absurd rules, aren't we?

Jonathan:

Okay. Fine. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

Jonathan:

Okay. You know, it's fine. He does have poems

Jess:

that rhyme, though, Robert Frost.

Jonathan:

I'm not familiar with any of them, but I believe you. I've read, you know, some of his popular stuff.

Jess:

But isn't he the one who wrote the whose Woods are these I think I know? I can recite the whole thing. I just don't know if he wrote it.

Jonathan:

Do it. Recite the whole thing.

Jess:

Whose woods are these? I think I know his house is in the village, though. He will not see me stopping here to watch his woods fill up with snow. My my little horse I don't wanna do the whole thing. I I might get them mixed up, but I think I can.

Jess:

It's stopping in the woods on a snowy evening. Is that him? Hold on. Shoot. I wrote he just Googled Robert.

Jonathan:

His name was Robert Paulson. Yeah. I don't know that one.

Jess:

It is Robert Frost. These woods are lovely, dark, and deep, but I've got promises to keep, a miles to go before I sleep, and miles to go before I sleep. You haven't heard that? It's been quoted in a Tarantino movie, Death Proof.

Jonathan:

I didn't see Death Proof.

Jess:

Yeah. It was okay.

Slava:

So It was okay. Robert Frost is okay,

Jonathan:

but no

Jess:

EE Cummings. Okay. Yeah.

Slava:

Although I

Jonathan:

like E Cummings. Yeah.

Slava:

I actually love EE.

Jess:

Not a a lot of people wouldn't, like, won't Whitman wouldn't qualify. A lot of people wouldn't qualify for your role.

Jonathan:

That's the point I was trying to make. Semi modern. Yeah. Shel Silverstein would apply Yeah. With some of his work.

Jess:

That would that'd be meaningful, though.

Slava:

Yeah. No Instagram poetry.

Jess:

Oh, yeah. No Oh my gosh.

Jonathan:

What was that person that you showed us

Jess:

Rupi Kaur. Megan Fox is a poet too. A better one better one than Rupi Kaur.

Jonathan:

When did you know what? I actually don't care.

Jess:

Yeah. She she says a lot of bad stuff about men, apparently.

Jonathan:

They all do. Yeah. I they they all do, which honestly kinda leads into the next piece I wanted to hear from you, Jess. You have a bit of a rant for books for women versus books for men, And I wanna hear all about it.

Jess:

I did not say this when I was ranting because I I saw the little note you have. And I and I heard him talk about it. I've heard Chuck p say, there's plenty of books for women. And I'm like, no. There's books for women, but they suck.

Jess:

And he said the Joy Luck Club. I didn't read these books. I don't I don't think I did. And the sisterhood of the traveling pants. And I started saying how and you guys haven't seen the stupid movie.

Jonathan:

No. No. I think I saw the movie.

Jess:

Okay. There's these pants, and it fits all of them. They're in a thrift store or something. They all I've never had a group of 5 I don't have 5 friends. Never had a group of 5.

Jess:

Not 5 female friends. We wouldn't all get along. Five women who, like, they're all different sizes, and they're not the same size. Like, clearly looking at it. And then they all decide, well, this pair of pants fits me.

Jess:

And then they all try them on, and it magically fits them all perfectly. And they don't stop and question that. They have, like, an adventure in these pants that they, like, trade.

Jonathan:

There's a party in their pants and everyone's invited?

Jess:

Like, I don't think a lot of women relate to that book. I don't. But my point was there's not like there's really great books for women written about, like, themes like this, like, you know, feeling lost and disillusioned. And there's a lot of books for women for sure because I I said maybe it's because women are bigger kinda bigger consumers, and maybe that's why there's more books marketed towards women. But they're shitty books that are mass produced, and they're about dumb things that they think we're all gonna like.

Jess:

But I'm not saying that men I still think it is important for men to have books about, you know, problems they have, which I don't fully understand because I'm not a man, about, like, masculinity and, like, you know, stuff that's in Fight Club. Like, I think Fight Club is a good book for men.

Jonathan:

Assuming they don't wanna become terrorists?

Jess:

Yes. I I just don't think there's a female equivalent that appeals to a lot of women.

Jonathan:

For specifically and if I heard you correctly, I just wanna make sure I understood it. So there's not a lot of books for women that address true femininity and the frustrations of femininity, I guess, would be the equivalent. Is that fair or slow?

Jess:

Or if there's one, it's haven't been done well, and I don't know of it. Because when I think of this book, I think of it as a dark book. I feel like there's not a book about life in that way for women. Because I said, like, earlier that I kinda relate to Marla being, like, a death obsessed person.

Jonathan:

Uh-huh.

Jess:

So in in a way that that's maybe why this book appealed so much to me when I first read it or anytime I've read it. But, like, as a younger person, it was the first time I saw, like, a more up female character. Although, like, now we have a lot more books with up protagonists in general.

Jonathan:

Yeah. So you're looking for a book, and I don't disagree with you. I haven't I haven't heard of anything.

Jess:

I think there is one, but it's now, and it was semi recently. My Year of Rest and Relaxation by Ottessa Moshfegh, I believe is how you pronounce her name. And it's about a woman who's trying to sleep for a year. It's kinda the opposite of Fight Club. She just tries to sleep for a year.

Jess:

She starts to do weird things in her sleep too, but, like, it can be explained by all the medication she takes. To to be reborn, like, hers is not kinda to destroy herself. Kind of this actually shit. Kind of this idea. Never mind.

Jonathan:

Interesting.

Slava:

So there's one book in the past couple years.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

Slava:

So your point still stands.

Jonathan:

I don't think yeah. I was gonna say, I think your point still stands. The frustrations of femininity, right, like, and societal pressures because Fight Club is about masculinity and societal pressures and the frustrations they're in. So it sounds like that book and and, to your point, I haven't heard of one, because I think it would take off. I think the only female books that have taken off in the last decade, maybe 15 years, that I can think of was Fifty Shades of Grey.

Jonathan:

Oh,

Jess:

I didn't read it, but I didn't see the movie either because it's not really up my alley.

Jonathan:

But, like, what other big female books took off outside of, like, romance books?

Jess:

I was gonna say that vampire one that I read all of them in one day. Twilight?

Jonathan:

You read all of Twilight in a day?

Jess:

I hate them, but I couldn't stop reading them.

Jonathan:

Read the trilogy in a day?

Jess:

I thought there were 4.

Jonathan:

Is there 4?

Jess:

No. That's only 3 you're they're right. They made into 4 movies. So my roommate, I read faster than her, and I was like, you need to stop reading so I can read that stupid book. Yes.

Jess:

I read them all. I was, like, 2020 years old.

Jonathan:

You hate read okay. That's a story for a different time.

Jess:

I didn't hate I didn't hate the first movie, so that's, I think, why I read the books.

Jonathan:

Wait. Wait. Wait. It there's 5 books.

Jess:

Did I read them all? I read all the books in one day. I thought I feel like there's 4. I've No. No.

Jess:

The 5th one, I feel like she wrote another one later. Stephenie Meyer.

Jonathan:

Yeah. Twilight, New Moon, Eclipse, Breaking Dawn, and Midnight Sun.

Jess:

I've never even heard of Midnight Sun.

Jonathan:

It's probably new ish.

Jess:

Are you sure that's not like a prequel?

Slava:

The burning question for me and the audience, team Edward or team Jacob, Jess?

Jess:

Who the Jacob's some weird wolf guy. He just doesn't wear a shirt. I didn't like him. Like, the brooding guy.

Slava:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a fan of vampires, although I haven't read or watched these movies.

Jess:

Yeah. I I don't like their vampire lore. I don't like the vampires who can go out in sunlight. That's stupid.

Jonathan:

Defeats a little bit of the purpose.

Jess:

Yeah. It does.

Slava:

My favorite vampire book is Interview with a Vampire and the Vampire Lestat. In my head, some somehow I made him make them into one book because I read them one after the other by Anne Rice.

Jess:

I have not read the the book you gave me yet. Yeah.

Slava:

You should

Jonathan:

read interview

Jess:

with a vampire. I didn't read that.

Jonathan:

Whatever you're the Vampire, we should put on the list.

Slava:

That's the one. Should. It's a great, great story. Anne Rice is amazing. I mean, I've read only 2 of her books, and it was I think what I started my Audible subscription with is The Tipping Point, the old Tipping Point by Maxwell Gladwell, Anne Rice, Interview the Vampire, Anne Rice, The Vampire Lestat, and then The Exorcist.

Jonathan:

What do you mean the old Tipping Point?

Slava:

There's a new tipping point. He's coming up with a tipping point too.

Jess:

Is this I thought his name was Malcolm.

Slava:

Yeah. Malcolm Gladwell. Malcolm Gladwell. Yep.

Jess:

I didn't read it. I read a book by him, but I can't remember what it was.

Slava:

Dave and Goliath?

Jonathan:

David and Goliath. What the dog saw.

Jess:

Talking to Strangers?

Slava:

Oh, yeah. Is that it? Yeah.

Jonathan:

Yeah. Dog and Strangers. Yep. He has a lot of books. He has a lot of books.

Jonathan:

But let's bring it back to your complaint about there's no fight club for women. So let's this is our next side quest. What would be in a fight club style book for women? Jess, you gotta lead this one because, Slava is not a woman.

Jess:

I think you would have to bring up feminism

Jonathan:

Yep.

Jess:

But kind of how that's kind of made women go against their natural

Jonathan:

Mhmm.

Jess:

I'm a say urges. Instincts, maybe.

Jonathan:

Instincts. Yeah. That's a good word.

Jess:

Because we if anything, we act tougher than maybe we want to.

Jonathan:

So I think that this is actually a really interesting question is okay. So the book would address feminism as an ideology. What other ideologies that women are presented with in today's society would it address?

Jess:

Well, it would all it would be the same similar to Fight Club, the consumerism thing. Yeah. Sometimes I wonder and not that I'm not I don't fall prey to this often. I just, you know, don't have as much money maybe, so I don't buy everything that's fucking trendy.

Jonathan:

Same.

Jess:

But I see, like, my roommate has 5 cups that don't fit fit into our, cabinets.

Jonathan:

She has

Jess:

some Are they the Stanley

Jonathan:

Cups? Yeah.

Jess:

Because she has, like, every version of the cup that's been popular. So she has the cups that were popular before the Stanley Cups. Whatever those are, like the YETI I feel like there's been a bunch of women have been obsessed with these stupid cups. I don't like these cups. I just use a cup just any cup.

Jonathan:

Yeah. Does it hold like a can you drink out of it? Yeah.

Slava:

Well, here's evidence that backs up Jess' claims that women's books are marketed en masse and they're shit. I asked Chad GPT, what would a woman's fight club look like? Here's what it says. It's blank. It's blank.

Slava:

Now hold on. Oh, here it is. Instead of bare knuckle bras, incorporate unconventional tools like pillow fights. What the hell?

Jess:

No shirts still. No shirts still.

Slava:

Me it gave me it gave me 3 rules. Three rules. Rule number 1, you can talk about Fight Club, but only in a group chat. Rule number 2, all fights must end with compliments. And rule number 3, if you lose, you buy the snacks.

Jess:

Backhanded compliments. This Maybe like, you fought really well for someone like you.

Slava:

Yeah. And there'll be community building aspects of this fight club. After the fights, women share their experiences, vent frustrations, and bond over mutual challenges.

Jonathan:

Okay. Back to Jess's brainstorm on what this book would actually entail.

Jess:

That was funny, though. I feel like in fight club, men have been neutered so much. They're acting like women. Because, you know, kind of that identity through the shit you buy.

Slava:

Yeah.

Jess:

Because I feel like that's a bigger problem now than when fight club was written for everybody.

Jonathan:

Agreed.

Jess:

Because now we have trendy like, I don't have so social media, but on not TikTok. I don't have TikTok. On Amazon, I see all the trending TikTok shit. Oh. You know?

Jess:

Interesting. I buy stuff because it's trending. I can't we can't escape it. And in this it's being sold, like, this idea like, how he's sold a certain kind of lifestyle. Like, you could become a person, a certain kind of person if you buy this dumb cup.

Jess:

Apparently, that cup is gonna save you.

Jonathan:

Hope your roommate doesn't listen to this show.

Jess:

I she hates me, and I hate her, so I don't care. Let her listen.

Slava:

But I've noticed this even back then because I was 1920 when this movie came out, and I watched the movie first. I noticed this issue in my early twenties where my friends or fellow male compatriots, wherever I may find them at work, at school, and college, they would express their identity through what I called back then groupthink. So I am a dirtball, as we called them, or I am a punk, or I am a grease head, and I buy shit that's trending, quote, unquote, in the sense that it did back in the nineties, early 2000. I buy this stuff. I wear this stuff.

Slava:

I have key chains or wallet chains or anything that was around back then, and this is part of my identity. Like, the clicks that I was part of, they all function this way, and I always felt a bit of an outsider, although I was kinda part of 3 different clicks, and they were all very different. And I was welcomed by all of them, which was fun and great for me, but I've always found them to do the same thing only within the constraints, technological and otherwise, within the constraints of the 19 nineties and early aughts. I think humans just do that all the time. I have a buddy who I love dearly, but he has a particular kind of identity and a particular type of friend circle, which I am the odd man out, and that's his whole world.

Slava:

He buys stuff and consumes content and movies and books and social media all within this thing that moves

Jess:

What is the thing? Or you don't wanna tell

Slava:

us I don't wanna tell you.

Jess:

He listen?

Slava:

Yes.

Jess:

He's gonna know it's him because he knows he does it.

Slava:

Well, they all do.

Jess:

Maybe maybe he will. Do a little.

Jonathan:

Maybe he doesn't know.

Slava:

Yeah. And I'm not even, like, judging him for it. It's just the natural response to things, for lack of a better terms. Just a natural human response because I do it in some way too. I have a particular style.

Slava:

I have particular books that I like. I have particular movies that I watch, and I'm more now into documentaries, so I consume a crap ton of documentaries and a crap ton of podcasts on true crime and paranormal activity. So that's kinda me, and everybody does it. The obnoxious part of it is when you take any of those things in isolation and make it your personality.

Jess:

Yeah.

Slava:

And it's just well, that's stupid. And that's what I think you're talking about the last thing you mentioned where these items, these trending things on TikTok or whatever that are pushing Amazon sales for whatever the hell product popping up on your screen, that's the obnoxious part of it. Just because I like collared shirts and jeans, it's kind of my go to everyday dress, that's not necessarily, like, a personality trait. That's just what I like.

Jonathan:

It's

Jess:

a pref yeah, preference.

Slava:

But if I thought that, hey, this is who I am and guys who wear collared shirts are somehow better or better dressed or more cultured or whatever the hell or somehow it gave me some sort of, sense of self worth, I'd

Jess:

be the best. It doesn't?

Slava:

It doesn't.

Jess:

That was your thing, I thought Yeah. At the restaurant.

Jonathan:

Slava likes to wear collared shorts.

Jess:

Yeah. Because I was like, who is that weirdo? Well, that's because outfit.

Slava:

That's what the rules were. I don't know.

Jess:

I wasn't following rules.

Slava:

That was my rule. At the restaurant? Because I follow the rules. Collared shirt, dark pants. That's all I wear when I was a server with at Jess's restaurant.

Jess:

Can't say the rest yeah. Jess's it is my restaurant.

Slava:

Restaurant. And everybody's

Jonathan:

like a liar. Wearing

Slava:

all that cheers.

Jess:

Yeah. Cheers.

Slava:

Yeah. Yeah. They're like, why are you wearing that? I'm like, it's the rules. He's like, but, like, you spent money on that.

Slava:

I'm like, no. I did. I went to Walmart. I bought, like, a $3 shirt and, like, $10 pants. I didn't You looked I didn't go go to Nordstrom's rack or, you know, Lord's Taylor and and got buy, like, the most expensive silk black shirt or something like that.

Slava:

But, anyway, I but I do prefer

Jonathan:

slave to consumerism over here. Well,

Slava:

yeah. You know me. But I do prefer collared shirts and long sleeve shirts when I when I dress

Jess:

for whatever. Never seen your arms.

Slava:

Yeah. I like long sleeves. Even teens.

Jess:

Offensive tattoos?

Slava:

No. Oh. No.

Jonathan:

See? His time in the Russian mafia, he just gotta cover it up.

Jess:

Yeah. All your kills.

Jonathan:

Oh, boy. Alright. So that's that's a rough breakdown and another side quest of women's version of Fight Club, which, Jess, if you're a writer, maybe you should write it.

Jess:

I was thinking that.

Jonathan:

Honestly, I think it'd

Jess:

be as well. Be people would hate it while I was alive. I've already planned it. Not what it's about. People would women would hate it.

Jess:

That's fine. That's great advice. In the future.

Jonathan:

That'll make you a lot of money.

Jess:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

That publicity like that.

Jess:

Yeah. Although, I'll get working.

Jonathan:

We'll read it. We'll review it. Yeah. And And then we'll have you on.

Jess:

No. If anything, I'll be I'll be, like, it's awful.

Jonathan:

I feel like that's what most of us do.

Jess:

I'm not I'm not overly confident.

Jonathan:

So let's talk a little bit more about the characters from the book. And it sounded like earlier before we hit record, you had some, additional thoughts on Marla in the book versus in the movie, which we briefly touched on. And then Slava in the previous episode, we spoke about how Marla kinda has a moral backbone, and our main character doesn't. So or any other characters from the book don't all go at once.

Jess:

Yeah. I feel like I've been talking a lot. So I was waiting for Slava to go.

Jonathan:

Yes. Slava.

Jess:

I also don't I don't remember what we said before versus on. That's another thing. Remember, I was talking a lot.

Slava:

Yeah. So to recap what Jonathan and I talked about, Marla, unlike the narrator, does have, to quote Jonathan, a moral backbone. But my point was more than that. She has a growth arc. So being one who was infatuated with death, when she encounters death in a real sense with the possible cancer, she understands, oh, yeah.

Slava:

This might not be the cool trendy thing or whatever the hell she was going through or her issues. She grows from that and understands that death is a reality where for the guys, Tyler and the narrator and Project Mayhem, death is very abstract. They're causing chaos and mayhem, and even though they say death is the final release and death will set you free and death is how you get internal life, Those are all great, I guess, if you're trying to wax philosophical in your own head in the basement, but they're so abstract that they have no meaning. Whereas Marla has a real encounter with death and she grows from it, and the backbone part of it is she does push back against Tyler's tyranny, if you will, terrorism, and she gets pissed off that her mother's fat was being, like, sent to her. So she does have a line in the sand where, yeah, she'll say crazy stuff like I wanna have your abortion, or she will live with Tyler slash the narrator in some rundown dinky house, and she will act out in her own way, but there's a line for her that she won't cross where for project mayhem, it seems call.

Slava:

We'll just do whatever we want.

Jess:

I agree, but I don't know if it's a disagreement. It's more like I feel like part of the point of the book was that in modern life, death is a very an abstract thing.

Slava:

Yeah.

Jess:

So that's why she felt better once she went to the support groups. She never felt so good in her life just like he did because she was already always death obsessed in some way, and now she has something to contrast her life with seeing all those dying people. But I guess that changed a little bit once she had, like, the real brush with death. Yeah. But I do think that's a good point of the book.

Jess:

Kind of like a lot of this is to get rid of all the modern, comfortable things we had because we're not one living. And I guess that holding that there was a huge deal with Tyler getting them to accept death because it almost doesn't seem real. And because, like, we don't the way we used to live, there it was unavoidable. Death was, like, always in your face, and now it's very sanitized almost.

Slava:

Yeah. The church I attend, as you walk up to the sanctuary, you pass a graveyard, a 200 year old graveyard. This church is a 180 years old, and there's this sense of I don't wanna say awe, but it's a reminder of your finality. Right? Like, there's a reminder of your mortality and as you go into worship, so we have lost that because modern comforts have, you know, kinda desensitized us to death, whereas before you might have 10 kids and only 4 would live, or you don't know if your husband's coming back from war, or your brother or your cousin or half your family.

Slava:

You don't know when the next raiding party's coming. You don't know if you'll live out the winter because it had a crappy, you know, dry summer. And the realization not the realization, but to you The reality? Reality? Yes.

Slava:

Reality of death, but

Jess:

I Reminder?

Slava:

Reminder reality. What's a different word for brushes with death? You had a constant daily brush with death. Yeah. So all those words, as we have become more technologically advanced, medically advanced, scientifically advanced, all the stuff advanced, we have less brushes with death.

Jess:

And secular, I think, too. Because Yes. Because I feel like Chuck p also discussed in interviews, like, the the the the loss of what is it called? The 3rd place. Your other place could be church or, like, a men's group or something.

Jess:

And then in modern times, you don't have that. And I guess church would church would keep you kinda remembering your hey. You're gonna die.

Jonathan:

Yeah. 3rd spaces, I think.

Jess:

3rd spaces. What did I call it?

Jonathan:

3rd place. Yeah. I'm I'm like places. Yeah. That's that sounds familiar, and then I was thinking about it.

Jonathan:

3rd places, spaces, whatever.

Jess:

Fight club would be their his commune the community he need because he I mean, he's kinda isolated in his condo.

Slava:

Yeah.

Jess:

Oh, Marla. Marla as a character.

Jonathan:

One quick note for the audience, though, for if you're not familiar with a what a third place is. The 3rd place is a social environment distinct from your 2 primary places, which would be, like, home and work. 3rd places would be your local fight club in this instance or your local gym or your local coffee shop. Like, 3rd places are diminishing. People used to go to town squares.

Jonathan:

Cheers. Another good example. Town squares where they would share information or, like, the bazaar, the market when the, you know, merchants would come to town would be a third place. That was a very common thing through all of human history, and because we're individual, because we're locked away, and Fight Club touches on this, you know, we don't have to leave our first two places, home and work, and we don't very often.

Jess:

And some people don't leave for work anymore. Right?

Slava:

Yeah. Remote work. Remote church.

Jess:

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I watch some church. I don't go to church. I watch it.

Jonathan:

For being as connected through the Internet as we are, we're actually more isolated than we have we've ever been.

Jess:

Yeah.

Slava:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

For those of us in the West.

Jess:

I think that's why this book is still so popular. It's because it becomes more and more relatable or more or I feel like we're That's not a good thing. Good way. Not at all. And I feel like men feel even more neutered as I said before.

Jess:

I can't think of another word. Emasculated, neutered.

Jonathan:

Sterilized?

Jess:

Like I said, but the the female thing, obviously, men have been and it's not, like, to anyone's advantage. It's not like women really, benefit from men being neutered.

Slava:

Right. There's a anime that popped into my brain.

Jonathan:

Death Note.

Slava:

No. Your conversations struck a memory, sparked a memory. It's called perfect blue, and it really deals with, you know, loneliness and isolation. And the, like, the plot is this a pop singer gives up her career to become an actress, but then slowly goes insane after being stalked by an obsessed fan. That's kinda like the metaplot, but you get a real insight into her head and how lonely she is because she gave up one thing, and she went to another thing career wise.

Slava:

She excelled at it. She's very popular, but none of that brings true fulfillment. And as I'm talking about this anime, another one pops into my head that I watched at the same time. I forget what it's called, but it's about a girl who goes online and just lives her life online, a young girl who lives all her life online, and slowly, like, the Internet in this world, whatever the Internet looked like in this world, takes over her life completely. But she's isolated from Avery, from her family, from her friends, and all her life, all her experiences become on the net, and she becomes totally separated from anything else around her.

Slava:

So in the nineties, people were thinking about this, at least Japanese were, these two writers, and Chuck Palahniuk was the only one thinking about it. Across the pond and across another continent all the way in Japan, people were thinking about the same thing. As things become more easy, as life becomes more easier, as technology advances, it really doesn't bring us together. Yes. It's a smaller world,

Jonathan:

but we're still isolated. So how do we deal with that? If we take what Fight Club is trying to reel against and this idea of isolation and frustration with society, like, how do we locally I don't believe that big change happens unless there's strong local movements personally, like back with Martin Luther King Junior, where it's like it was a local movement, and he started some groundswells in different local spaces, and then it became an actual, like, national movement. So for us, thinking about being isolated, thinking that there's no more third spaces that are around or places, how do we, yeah, how do we how do we deal with that? How do we make sure that we're fighting against the rising tide, if we will, in today's consumeristic society that still desires tribalism and will basically shut off our brains to become part of those tribes.

Jonathan:

Is that too heavy of a question or too convoluted?

Jess:

No. I don't know if I could answer, like, a one solution for, like, the consumerism. Like, really think about if you need something or if you were just momentarily convinced you need something. But, like, the isolation aspect is find a community group to be a part of. Where I work, I think kinda count is one of those places because it has that kinda community vibe, which is why sometimes I don't feel like I'm going to work.

Jess:

Because when I don't look forward to work, I'm like, well, you do you're kinda hanging out with your friends too. For kids, like, my daughter at her school, they banned cell phones to some extent. She told me we're forced to talk to each other now and that she likes it.

Jonathan:

Man, the nineties were tough.

Jess:

They all will stare out their phones. Really? And, you know, when they were allowed to. Yeah. Because they they really just were allowed to have them out.

Jess:

I didn't realize how much they were allowed to have their phones out. I I thought it was, like, in her in, like, a hoodie pocket or something.

Jonathan:

Right. Yeah. I have hide it or something.

Jess:

Yeah. But that's just all they would do. Like, when there was any free time in class, they would all not talk to each other and be on their phone mostly. So one would be, like, for to help children ban phones. Like, they're they have to turn them in somehow in the beginning of class.

Jess:

But I I remember some parents were, like, against this idea. And I get in a little bit, like, me as like, I need to be able to reach her. I'm like, why? My parents never my parents never knew where I was.

Jonathan:

Right.

Jess:

Like, they didn't they didn't know if I was in school. They didn't I check my daughter's location every day. Like, while she's in school, my is she still in school? Just checking her location.

Slava:

So the anime I was talking about, it's Serial Experiments Lane, and it follows a young girl named Lane Iwakura who gets obsessed with being on Wired, which is similar to the Internet in that world. And anyway, I needed to get that out because my anal retentive brain wouldn't rest. I think what Jess said is the only answer. It's that's it. You have to find your 3rd, 4th, or even maybe 5th place, if I could add on to that, community that's intentional.

Slava:

Right? And I know that's words being overused has become a cliche, intentional, authentic, blah blah blah. People use it, but in an abstract way. And then they sit around a table and all check their Instagram feeds as they're sitting in front of each other. And I'm guilty of that too sometimes.

Slava:

But intentional community, like Jonathan and I, this is like my 4th place. This project, this podcast, I look forward to every week. The reading, the research, the actual recording, hanging out with guests, the conversations that spark from that on and off air, that gives me a sense of community, a sense of peace even. It gives me, you know, I don't wanna say a sense of identity, but it fills in certain gaps on my identity because I get to do the stuff that I love, which is research and talking, getting into more conversations that are not just, well, how's the weather or what did you do this week and what did you do last week, but actual real conversation of about life with somebody that I consider a friend, not just some rando on the bus, which you can have a great conversations with randos anywhere, but here's a person that's part of my life that I come to every week, and we get to hang out. The same thing can happen in other people's lives.

Slava:

It doesn't have to be a podcast. It could be a D and D session. It could be a book club. It could be a drinking club where you go out and taste whiskeys or whatever the hell it is. People do need more spaces than just home and work.

Jess:

In the in the Internet space. And Like, the Internet space that people should stop thinking of as, like, a community because online communities are not the same thing as real life where you talk to people and people are, like, truthful to what do they say? Echo chambers online is like an echo just a bunch of people are gonna either be really mean to you or just agree with you mindlessly.

Jonathan:

Both simultaneously.

Jess:

Yeah. Yep. Where in real life, I mean, you also get to see someone's expression when they talk to you. And sometimes when

Jonathan:

body language.

Jess:

They're lying, and they're like you can kinda tell they're like, okay. That sounds so you know?

Slava:

Because I've been part of some online communities because as everybody knows, I'm a amateur chef, and I have an Instagram account devoted to my chef, you know, experiments and cooking escapades, if you will. And because of it, I've been invited to groups where we share each other's recipes and we talk and we try to bolster each other's Instagram accounts by voting and sharing and all this stuff and talk to the guy running the group, and you get to meet other chefs and home cooks, and it's great. And these things usually last about a week. And then, you know, you you wait a while, then another one pops up, and you kind of follow each other on Instagram, share each other's recipes again. So you're constantly connected with these people, but that's not the same as me going to church and hanging out with the friends I made there.

Slava:

That's not the same as me providing Jess over for a Saturday night meal. It's not the same as me and Jonathan hanging out for this podcast. Yeah. I met these chefs, and, yeah, I've got an Instagram followers, and, yeah, I've got most more exposure, and, yeah, I found another recipe that I like, and we talk in the group chats, and everything's fun. But that ends, and I move on.

Slava:

That's no different than me talking to the guy who I sold my remarkable to. So I bought a remarkable. I didn't use it for anything that I wanted to use it because it wasn't serving my needs, and I sold it.

Jonathan:

Mhmm.

Slava:

And I had a back and forth to the guy. I sold it on eBay, and he was a pleasant fellow. But after the that was over, transaction concluded, I'm never gonna talk to that guy again. Same with 99% of these chefs that I met online. They're not real, quote, unquote.

Jonathan:

Well, I think that a lot of us could pull up something that's a a similar example where there's a lack of feeling connected when you're not in a physical space with a person, which I think could lead to a premise that there is something that cannot be replicated through the Internet that is given to us that we receive as human beings when we are in the same physical space together. Like, there's some sort of symbiotic or or human, you know, bio biological transference or spiritual transference, or maybe it's a mixture. It's a cocktail of both that happens when you're physically with people that you enjoy. And I think that that kinda gets into the the third space where it's, like, when you have a a space to go to and there's people and you get to relax and be yourself and authentic like Salve is talking about, it's different. And it and it feeds something in our souls and our and our personhoods.

Jess:

Agreed.

Slava:

Yeah. For sure.

Jess:

I also feel like you're you're you are your full self in person. Even if, like, I have some social anxiety, so I'm act awkward or I imagine that I am why I'm talking to someone and then I'm like, stop thinking about yourself, then I hopefully stop. But, like, you are more your full self. We're online. You're kinda like, if you're chatting with someone, you're very you're presenting what you you know what you're gonna say because you get to read it out or whatever.

Jess:

So Yeah. Fair. I feel like you don't know if you like the person in real life, the the real talking like, I might hate you, Jonathan. I don't know. You haven't been in the same room before.

Jonathan:

That's true.

Jess:

I feel like because I see seen you enough. I I don't hate you for now.

Jonathan:

I've got a growing list of people who hate me, and you can join that list if you

Jess:

want to. I'm on the may or may not. I have the mutual person. But, like, you like, how you don't know every time I hear someone's dating someone online, I'm like, you guys don't know what you're really like though. Like, you've seen pictures, but, like, you don't know if you hate everything about that person because there might be something by a lot not biologic or maybe biologically, like, their pheromones or something that you don't know if you like or don't like.

Jonathan:

Or they're catfishing you.

Jess:

Or they're moving your well, I I meant, like but assuming I'm

Jonathan:

just I I know what you mean. They are.

Jess:

I know what you mean. Catfish. I I can't they're in love. These people are in love. Like, how the are you in love?

Jess:

You don't know what you guys are like in real life.

Slava:

Even if you're awkward, you can be a lovable, awkward person. Right? Your friends can love you despite you being a little bit off. You can be your authentic self, your genuine self, and that might mean you're a little awkward. That's okay.

Slava:

Yeah. I talk fast and I stutter because I forget that I should slow down and talk slowly Yeah. Let my mouth catch up to my brain and vice versa. And I rant a lot. That's just me.

Slava:

I go on rants, and sometimes people like Slava, okay. We get it. Shut up. But that's just me, and I can be myself around friends. And you can be your awkward self.

Slava:

You're not, but I'm just saying for the sake of this example

Jess:

But okay.

Slava:

You can be your awkward self with us, meaning my wife and me, and I guarantee your true friends really do like you for who you are no matter what you think you come off as. And you can't do that online because the mask that you built for yourself online, the mask that you portray, the people will never see your authentic self. If you were an asshole, Jonathan, for example, or you

Jonathan:

Okay. Let's see where this goes. I'll make it some popcorn.

Slava:

Right. If you were an asshole and you never showed your true self and you always played a role that you thought other people wanted to see, not in a way that, you know, you had self image issues or self esteem issues where people would say to shut up, Jauff, and just stop that and be yourself. But if you honestly, like a like a psychopath or a sociopath, put on a mask that you thought normal people would like, nobody would hang out. You'd be like, that guy's weird. He always pretends he's somebody else.

Slava:

He always is putting on a farce when he's talking to us. You'd slowly be excluded from any normal interactions. Yeah. So being in person also allows you to maybe butt heads with people or be called out on some of your BS, and that's that's a normal part of life that should be happened to anybody, and you get to participate in life, if you will, instead of just, you know, dead comments back and forth in a group chat. I think I think I can end my my comment with that.

Jess:

It made sense.

Jonathan:

I think it checks out.

Jess:

Part of it, to change something, you have to realize I think some people like being, like, mindless consumers. Maybe it's because life is so depressing and buying stuff makes them in the moment, they get that dopamine rush.

Jonathan:

100%. Or

Jess:

maybe it really because I don't know if people are really convinced they're gonna change their life before they there was a book I read, and the woman was a shopaholic and she realized that. And then she decided to buy a bunch of books on shopping addiction. Like, she went online and started buying those books. I'm like, I feel like anytime you have a problem, some people, they just wanna buy something. I think I realized how much stuff I don't use in my room.

Jess:

Because someone asked me what I wanted for Christmas. They don't get me anything. Like, I don't need anything else. I have so much stuff I don't need right now. It's killing me.

Jess:

And I I'm not an organized person, so I don't need any more things in my room.

Jonathan:

Same. People were asking me the same thing over the holidays, and I was, like, I mean, anything that I want that's small, I'll buy myself.

Slava:

You

Jonathan:

know? But the things that I want are, like, you know, 100 of dollars, if not a grand, and you're, like, no one's gonna buy that because none of us have that much money Yeah. To go, like, hey. I'd really love to give you whatever, and just be like, yeah. Grand doesn't mean that much to me.

Jonathan:

Right? Or it's you mean enough that I'll spend a grand on you, and everybody around me gets a grand level gift. And it's like, well, I don't I do win the lottery, so not gonna happen. Yeah. Right?

Jonathan:

So I feel the same.

Slava:

Yeah. So as we land this plane, well, I wanna ask the audience, what are their, quote, unquote, fight clubs? You know, where you where do you guys find your meaning, identity, or connection? And if you find yourself isolated, my challenge would be, because this has helped me immensely, is reaching out to somebody or finding a community, whatever that community looks like, but it has to be in real life. Maybe that even means embracing a new way of connecting with others that's outside of TikTok and Instagram and chef group chats.

Jonathan:

Yeah, chef.

Jess:

Shoot. Favorite quotes, though. Sorry.

Slava:

You're good.

Jess:

I wanna ask you guys your favorite quotes because, like, this is a very quotable book.

Jonathan:

It is a very quotable book.

Jess:

I know my favorite. It's not in the movie. The cancer I have I I'm paraphrasing a little bit. The cancer I I don't have is everywhere now. That one

Jonathan:

Oh, yeah.

Jess:

I love that one so much when I was, like, young.

Jonathan:

Why was that one one that hit for you?

Jess:

I don't know. Oh, shit. I didn't think it through.

Jonathan:

Fair enough.

Jess:

Shoot. Let me think that through. Oh, I don't know. I'm so excited.

Jonathan:

Well, the first time that I saw the movie and read the book, one that stuck out to me is you're the same decaying organic matter as everything else. We are the all singing, all dancing crap of the world. And although it's nihilistic, similar, I was younger at the time, and I was like, yeah. That's kinda how this all feels sometimes. And I think it's partly due to our over exaggeration of stories, which is not a bad thing.

Jonathan:

It's meant to be entertaining, but I think of, like, a Braveheart. It's, like, we can get the full Braveheart story in 2 hours and 7 minutes or whatever it is. However, if we lived it out, it wouldn't feel like 2 hours and 7 minutes. It would be months or years. Those moments that we highlight in a book or a story of these specific scenes, we put them in highlight reels, and then as we were growing up, we start comparing, like, well, my life isn't like that movie that I saw.

Jonathan:

My life isn't like the Ninja Turtles or Power Rangers or whatever favorite book we were reading at the time, Harry Potter. So then my life is boring, and it's like, no. The in betweens that the author ignores because no one cares if John McClane takes a poop during Die Hard because it's not relevant to the story. Right? Like or him walking up the flights of stair.

Jonathan:

Like, no one cares, so we're gonna skip those parts.

Jess:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

But we as the audience are like, we're comparing the highlight reel with the mundane, and they're not an apples to apples comparison.

Slava:

I have 2 that stand out to me as phenomenal quotes. One is this is your life and it's ending one moment at a time. Poof. I like that one a lot because it gives the reader a challenge to live not just in a moment, but for a greater purpose. And the second one is you are not your job.

Slava:

You are not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive. You are not the contents of your wallet. You are not your khakis. You are all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

Slava:

And that goes back to the comment I made about the clicks that I was part of and that I saw in the nineties and aughts where people made the things that they had and their own communities, and although we just challenged the audience to join a community, that was the whole of their identity to some degree, good, bad, and indifferent. So that one those 2 for me particularly really stand out that you're more than just the stuff that you have. Right? The things you used to own now own you. That's another quote.

Slava:

It's more than the stuff you have. It's more than your job, and your life is ending a moment at a time. You have to realize, speaking about death, Justin and I talked about death before we came on podcast, you have to know that you might die tomorrow, and living a life that's purposeful is necessary to live a fulfilled life. That's why Marla appeals to me so much because she realizes that her obsession with death is trite and abstract and cliche and death is a real real thing that could happen to you tomorrow.

Jonathan:

I thought your other quote was gonna be sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.

Slava:

Oh, I love that one too. And since I read that book again for this podcast, I've been doing variations of I am Tyler Durden's x x x y, whatever the hell he says.

Jonathan:

I am Jack smerking revenge.

Slava:

So I would say I am Tyler Durden's burned hand or some crap like that when I burn my hand cooking the beer or tacos.

Jonathan:

Mhmm.

Slava:

But that's just me being, you know, a silly, goofy, dumbass. So just me being silly.

Jonathan:

It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.

Jess:

I agree.

Jonathan:

Jess, what's your what's your go to quote?

Jess:

Oh, well, that well, the cancer one was it, and then your guys' the ones you guys said. But I think I like the cancer thing because it's not in the book, And, also, it's so weird. Like, he hides his foot in the sand when he's on the beach so no one can see the birthmark. That made him dying. Like like, he was like, I was dying in their heads, and he didn't even know what was going on.

Slava:

Yeah.

Jess:

I think I just like not because it's like a very apple I've never felt that way that he feels because I've never no one's thought I had cancer that I wasn't aware of. I just love that little thing that they didn't put in the movie. He he hides his foot. He's a picture of his foot. But then and I think it goes missing when Tyler goes missing.

Jess:

The picture of his birthmark, I think he had a Polaroid of it, and, like, it's one of his possessions. Like, he something he cared about.

Slava:

Yeah. Well, one final one, and then we can end this, that I like because it's so, appeals to my Russian soul, I guess, you could put it that way. Today is the sort of day where the sun only comes up to humiliate you.

Jess:

Oh, that is awesome. That's I feel that's the best quote, and I didn't even know it.

Slava:

Beautiful. Well, Jess, thank you. A heaps of thanks for joining us for this episode.

Jonathan:

It was

Jess:

a lot more fun than I thought it was gonna be. I was I was really worried.

Jonathan:

Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.

Slava:

You say that all the time. Each time you come on, you

Jess:

say that. Worried, and I'm like, I'll never do this again.

Jonathan:

You always have a lot to share and bring a very fresh perspective to the boys' club, so we we appreciate it. We do it.

Jess:

Oh, yeah. Thank you for having me on the because because it's kind of a man man's book. I'm glad I was here to But listen. Take something.

Slava:

Listen. I've said this before to you privately, to Jonathan privately on this podcast publicly. 20% of our audience and it jumps between, like, 18 and 22, so

Jonathan:

in the middle. Yeah.

Slava:

20% of our audience is women. So having a female voice on it is fantastic. I'm I'm glad the women just listen to us rant. That's great that we can appeal to to a wider audience, but having a female voice is essential.

Jonathan:

That they just come here for Jess episodes, which I'm okay with.

Jess:

I doubt that. I'm not in enough episodes. They like you guys just fine.

Jonathan:

Alright. Well, before you guys vanish back to reality, be sure to share this episode with your book loving friends. It keeps our quest alive and helps other book adventurers find their way here. See you next time on Sidequest.