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The Feel Good Podcast aims to unpack what it means to be a man in the modern world. In each episode, we explore the evolving landscape of masculinity through open, honest conversations with guests from all walks of life, from sport and the military to leadership, mental health and the arts.
We challenge outdated narratives and dig into topics like emotional resilience, connection, identity and purpose. Our aim is to create a space where men can reflect, feel seen, and start to ask deeper questions about who they are and who they want to become.
Whether you're curious about redefining strength, navigating vulnerability, or simply looking for more meaning in how you show up day to day – this podcast is for you.
Welcome to Feel Good for Men Who Want Change, the podcast all about healthy masculinity and how you can make a change in your life if you're feeling like something isn't quite right. Now, today's episode is with Josh Feynman, the founder of Mench, a men's group rooted in local connection. And he is very much someone who embodies that change. As you'll hear, he went through the journey that a lot of us did, you know, competing in school, going to university, taking the career that he felt he should take. And that all worked up until the moment it did.
Tim Barber:Some family crises and a supportive wife were enough to help him think about how he wanted to spend his time and how he wanted to show up as a man. And whilst he's gone down this very specific path of, you know, creating Mench and this group of supportive men rooted in local community, I think there's a lot we can take from the journey he took to get there. So have a listen, let me know what you think, and see if you can connect with a part of Josh's story in your own life.
Josh Fineman:Josh, welcome Thank to the you, sir. Thank you for having me.
Tim Barber:No, not at all. Not at all. And I suppose, first off, for anyone who is watching on YouTube or might choose to hearing this, do you wanna just give us a two minute intro on the shirt you're wearing?
Josh Fineman:On the shirt, sure. So if you're listening to the podcast, you won't see this incredible shirt that has a big giant sign in the middle, a sponsor, which is Mench. Basically, I sponsored football team's kit who, I was explaining there's I'm Jewish, and there's a something called the Maccabee Games, which is the Jewish version of the Olympics, basically. And thousands of athletes from around the world come together to compete as you would in the regular Olympics. And there was team Great Britain, and a client and good friend of mine was on the team
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:And asked if I'd want to sponsor it. And actually, the reason I did was because, I've always had a kind of mixed relationship with being Jewish.
Tim Barber:Okay.
Josh Fineman:And this particular event brings people who are religious or practising to people who didn't even know that they were Jewish, and they come together and form a bond with brothers, Jewish brothers, to go and be in this very special event that takes place four times a year together. Just thought there's such it's just such a perfect link to what I'm trying to do within my community as well. Yeah. And it was kinda like a bucket list item that I didn't didn't think I ever would want on a bucket list item. We went to like match, my kids got a kit.
Josh Fineman:Amazing. And, yeah, it's I wear it all the time now.
Tim Barber:Yeah. It's great. I mean, it fits right into the trend of retro football shirts.
Josh Fineman:It looks very cool. It looks very cool. Thank you, man.
Tim Barber:And look, I suppose that is a nice segue because I I did wanna talk a little bit about your background and and, you know, what your influences were growing up as well as coming on to like what you're doing now. But tell us a bit about that. Like, what was your upbringing like? Was religion part of that? Mhmm.
Tim Barber:What values were you absorbing? Give us the lowdown.
Josh Fineman:It's a really interesting question, actually, because I think that story has evolved over time, and there are parts of it that I think I'm starting to let go of. And I'm starting to see other parts of my upbringing that I maybe didn't appreciate as much. Mhmm. So there are things I definitely appreciated. Like, I grew up in Northwest London suburbia.
Josh Fineman:It was me and my brother. My parents, for all intents and purposes, were very happily married. And my whole life was basically hanging out with guys. I went to an all boys' school. My dogs were boys.
Josh Fineman:My cousins were boys. Yeah. It was kinda like a very male dominated household and social life for me. And on the surface, I actually think, as a child, I thought I had an amazing childhood. I had parents who stayed together.
Josh Fineman:I didn't come from a broken home. You know, I I came from money and wealth, and therefore I never had to kind of experience what it was like to lack anything in that sense financially. And I had parents who loved me, and I had a lot of close friends. And at the same time, when I look back now, actually, there was other stuff rumbling on in my life as a child. So both of my parents lost their siblings very young.
Josh Fineman:My dad, at 23, lost his 28 year old brother to a car crash. My mum, at 18, lost her 23 year old sister to a physical disability, essentially. Wow. And there was a lot of grief that they carried with them. And I was born, I think, a year after my dad's brother died.
Tim Barber:Okay.
Josh Fineman:And whilst I've always been a deep feeler and deep thinker, I have carried around me this kind of dual personality of someone who can feel incredibly connected and joyful and adventurous and can be the life and soul of the party. And then on the other side, there's this kind of melancholic side to me. And there was sadness that I carried around. And I think, actually, when I look back, it makes sense because I think I maybe, depending on if you believe in this or not, but I I can see that maybe I absorbed the grief that wasn't being processed.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:Because my parents were trying to survive, and they were trying to build something and move past the pain that they'd gone through. So I kinda carried a lot of that around with me. And really, my childhood, as I said, was super happy. And then seven or eight years old, I started to notice comparing myself to others. Okay.
Josh Fineman:My school was like a private boys school. Like, naturally, you're comparing each other when it comes to grades or comes to social standing or sports. And then the older I got, and when I went to secondary school, it kind of moved beyond that to, like, as it does, I'm sure, in for all people, men and women, there's that stage of really comparing yourself in terms of your body image or how good looking you are or Yeah. How many friends you have or as a boy, it was like getting with girls. And, like, I frankly found it, like, really awkward to approach girls and then compare myself to the guys who didn't find it awkward.
Josh Fineman:So all of that was going on. And that comparison started very young and developmentally, it's very natural, but it followed me all the way through to my early thirties. Mhmm. And it still kind of pops its head up every now and then. And I'm sure it will for the rest of my life, and that's fine, because I I I have a different relationship with that now.
Josh Fineman:But my dad was, like, head down focusing on building, very successful in business, wasn't particularly at home much. Again, as a child, I don't think I noticed that. Mhmm. But, know, was leaving home at six in the morning, was coming back at 07:30 at night. It was only probably when we were older that we all had, like, dinner together.
Josh Fineman:Mhmm. And my mom was bringing up two boys, of which we were both challenging. Okay. And and found it really hard. Yeah.
Josh Fineman:And so I as the older brother, I think, became a bit of a golden child who wanted his mom to be happy, so tried everything to please her.
Tim Barber:Okay.
Josh Fineman:And as a man who wanted to a young boy who wanted to emulate his father, the messages either directly or unconsciously that I was receiving is, to be a man, you need to go out and build a giant business and make lots of money and then support your family in that way. And I don't blame either of my parents for that. But when you're going through life with this inside of you unconsciously or when I did, like Yeah. It was all consuming.
Tim Barber:Yeah. What at what point would you say it moved from being unconscious, subconscious to to conscious?
Josh Fineman:I think it really became apparent when my mom got in a really bad car crash. So if you can imagine the unprocessed grief my dad felt that he lost his brother in a car accident, and then my mom gets put in hospital three months after my son was born. And she was in hospital for three months, and we didn't know if she was gonna live or not for a lot of that time. Like, it was well, just like a dream or a nightmare mixed into like, it was a very, like, surreal experience. And and what was interesting is two weeks into that, going back and forth from the hospital with my mom, I was starting to try and create a semblance of routine again.
Josh Fineman:And at this time, I was running my creative agency. And I came home from work with this kind of glazed look in my eyes, and my wife had our three month old child in her arms. And I was, I don't know, like, worrying about the next deal that we have coming through or complaining about some challenging stuff I was going through with my business partner or just basically saying, like, I was miserable in my job or something like that. And she looked at me and she was like, your mom is on the verge of dying, and this is the thing that your brain is still focusing on. And we have a child now, and I can't be your therapist anymore.
Josh Fineman:Mhmm. And you need to go and do something about this. And up until that point, she had become my therapist for about ten years. We lived in a kind of best friend zone. We'd been with each other since we were 18, and I'd supported her for the first few years of our relationship.
Josh Fineman:And then once I moved into career, it completely switched around. And I was, for eight or ten years, in a panic and worry that I'm not enough. I'm not doing enough. I'm not building enough. I'm not big enough.
Josh Fineman:And and so this message from her just really hit home of, like, yeah, something's something needs to change. Like, this isn't Mhmm. Good, what's going on right now.
Tim Barber:I mean, what powerful insight from her.
Josh Fineman:Yeah.
Tim Barber:Do you think she knew that that was what you needed to hear?
Josh Fineman:No. Because I don't I don't know, actually. It's a good question. I I I like to ask her, actually. But she is an amazing listener and a carer.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:And she's a pediatric physio, and so much of her job is about listening and trying to understand people. And whether it's with friends or family, like, she's always the one who listens. Mhmm. And so I don't think she realized that I needed to hear that. I think, honestly, she was just, like, at the point of exhaustion and having a child and finding that difficult enough on top of my my mom being in hospital and just being, I can't I just can't do this anymore.
Tim Barber:I'll come back to this this sort of moment that that forced you to think about this, but you you touched on your career a little bit there, and and I said to you I did wanna spend some time on that because I think the path that you walked is one that many men will be on, which is doing a job that you think you should be doing or following a career that you think that you should be doing, perhaps, you know, zigzagging between a few, trying to find the right one. Mhmm. Can you tell us a bit about that journey before you before Mench, before all of that? Yeah.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. Sure.
Tim Barber:What was that period of your life like?
Josh Fineman:So if I think about uni, I remember whilst I had a great time, I was having conversations with my mom throughout uni for a long part of it, basically saying, like, I'm miserable. I don't know if I wanna be here. I don't know what I wanna do. It was very, like, feeling of lost and emptiness and lack of direction or purpose. And the reason for that was because of the weight of fear around what the fuck am I gonna do when I leave uni, and the fear that how am I gonna emulate my dad when I'm not him and I don't want to do what he's done and I'm here to I knew there was something in me that wanted to help people or put on experiences.
Josh Fineman:I loved putting on events, for instance. So there was something around bringing people together and having amazing experiences. And and so my first job out of uni for three months was I took on a, like, a role as head of events for this national student committee. And it was really interesting because it completely went against what my parents and maybe my dad thought I should do.
Tim Barber:Okay. What were they thinking?
Josh Fineman:Like, you're not gonna make any money from this. Right. I'm not sure this is what you should do. And actually, what was interesting in that entire experience is I was like, whilst it was everything that's natural to me to do, I froze in that job. I was terrified.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. Like, I used to sit down at my desk and have panic attacks Right. Because I was like, I how do I do this? Don't know how to do it. I don't have the support around me.
Josh Fineman:I have to figure this out on my own. And I think it was this I think it was this overwhelming sense of I'm going to fail. And so a few months in, I left and I turned to my mom and dad and I was like, what do I do? And I used to love playing poker. So I had an internship at, like, a a proprietary trading company, which is I always describe it as like, imagine Wolf of Wall Street, but no cocaine or strippers, but Sky Sports News and weed.
Josh Fineman:Okay. That's basically what it was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Fineman:It was just a bunch of guys sitting with computer screens. And anyway, people did really well at it. And it was a really nice bunch of guys. And my dad said, well, you you really enjoyed that, and I think for him it was like, that makes sense as a career path, so go do that. And so that's what I did.
Josh Fineman:And there was a part of me that really enjoyed it. I think I'm quite a creative problem solver and it was quite exciting and different, and there was a sense of camaraderie there. But my let my feeling of being successful, which was essentially I have to hit the top of the mountain, was being measured by a number at the end of the day. Mhmm. That was either green if I made money or red if I lost money.
Josh Fineman:And I joined in 02/2009, which was like six months into the world financial crisis. And I saw loads of people leave around me, and I was there for nearly three years. It was like having your first girlfriend and not knowing when to break up with them even though you want to. Yeah. And and every day, I tried to go in and and every day, it was like, I'm failing.
Josh Fineman:I'm failing. I'm failing. I'm failing. Then I kind of was like, I just they got to a point where actually I met my first ever coach. I had my first ever coaching experience.
Josh Fineman:I didn't know he was a coach, but the people that ran the company really believed in me. They knew that I was struggling.
Tim Barber:Okay.
Josh Fineman:So he showed me his coach. He introduced me to his coach, I had a couple of conversations. And at the end of that conversation, the second conversation, this coach has turned around to me and said, probably shouldn't be saying this to you, but you don't want to be doing this, do you? Like, you shouldn't be doing you should be doing something else. This isn't and it was wasn't like asking a question.
Josh Fineman:It was just like telling me what I wasn't willing to hear.
Tim Barber:Mhmm.
Josh Fineman:But it gave me the permission, similar to my wife, to be like, no, I I don't. I do wanna change. And so I then moved into film finance cause I was like, oh, I wanna do something in storytelling. But I couldn't possibly go into something completely different. I have to sidestep into something logical.
Josh Fineman:And I realized that was film, but it was really numbers and finance still. And then I moved from that into working at a production company because I enjoyed my role was going out and talking to people and trying to kind of raise funds. And I was like, I quite like this part of it. Yeah. So I joined a production company and I kind of came on as like a commercial director.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:And that also was like, don't there's something in this I don't quite wanna do. So and then I took another step and I was like, I'll run my own creative agency Yeah. Because like, I wanna be in the creative part of it, not just the selling part of it. And that grew and became, you know, relatively successful. Like, we won awards.
Josh Fineman:I had a business partner. We had, you know, all the things that you would tick on the list of, like, we have an office. We have a full time team. We have a bunch of people that work with us. We have people that recommend us.
Josh Fineman:We we do quality work. We win awards. We're ads around the world where, you know, we're working with, like, some of the biggest brand names out there, and we're still a small independent operation. And yet I was five years into that, and I our second son had just been born, and I was on a shoot in Mexico City. There was a 150 people on set, and it was like the crowning moment of our agency.
Josh Fineman:It was this big global campaign. I remember we wrapped, and I remember thinking in my head with all the jubilation going around, I was like,
Tim Barber:I just don't wanna do this.
Josh Fineman:Like, this this just actually isn't what I want still. Like, this is still not what I'm looking for. And that created, like, a year of processing. I think I just started seeing my mentor coach at the time.
Tim Barber:And what's the dialogue like with your parents at this point?
Josh Fineman:So I don't think I was talking to my mum that much. I don't think I was really talking to my dad that much because I think actually some of the challenges that we face in our relationship is that I haven't shared things with him Mhmm. Because I never felt like I could be met how I wanted to be met in it. And my dad, bless him, like, loves me, you know, to shit and but comes from a world of operating as a fixer, rescuer. If there's a fire, I'll put it out.
Josh Fineman:And if he sees his son in pain, he wants to put the fire out. So here's what you should do. Here's what you should do. Here's what you should do. And I remember saying to him, maybe a year before I left, I'm really, like, worried because I keep like, I this still feels like a start up.
Josh Fineman:Like, I'm I'm just each time we get a job in, I'm thinking about the next job that comes in. Each project that comes in, I'm, like, not particularly fussed creatively about it. The only thing I'm getting fulfillment from is when my team come to me with their personal challenges or I run these monthly breakfast roundtables, which was like a mastermind for heads of marketing, but essentially a group therapy session. And and I remember him saying, like, it's interesting because it wasn't what I wanted to hear. What I wanted to hear is you don't have to do it, you know.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. And it's not his fault that he didn't say it, but what I heard instead was something like, you're doing great. You're fine. Keep going. You know?
Josh Fineman:And it's interesting. Sometimes that's what Mhmm. We wanna hear from the people that we love. But then some of the times, like, I think what I've wanted to hear is, like, it's okay. You don't have to keep trying and proving yourself.
Josh Fineman:Like, you've you have nothing to prove. Mhmm. And so that was quite hard because then I was leaning really heavily on my wife, as I said. And it was actually only when I discovered men's groups that it really accelerated the previous two years or so of working on myself to be like, oh, there's a there is a voice in my head that's saying you need to do something else. This isn't what you should be doing.
Tim Barber:And what did that working on yourself look like? Because I think, you know, if I think about, like, where was I three, four, five years ago, or where are a lot
Josh Fineman:of men
Tim Barber:now? I would wager that there is a lot of feeling of stuck ness
Josh Fineman:Yeah.
Tim Barber:But not a lot of Yeah. Solutions Yeah. That are either they're probably well known
Josh Fineman:to us
Tim Barber:because we're like in this world Yeah. But like the average guy who's still holding on to that script Yeah.
Josh Fineman:That you got from his dad Yeah. At uni or career or whatever. Yeah.
Tim Barber:Like, you know, what are you doing when you're there? You know?
Josh Fineman:I I, like, I call it the phrases, like, is this it? Is where most men get to. And, you know, like, I was talking to a guy the other day who is running, a really successful creative agency on the face of it. He's, like, ticked all the boxes, happy wife, happy kids, nice home, all of this stuff. And he's going through that question right now, which is like, I'm not happy.
Josh Fineman:I feel quite trapped by this life that I've created for myself. What worked for me, and, you know, I I always like to caveat, this is just what worked for me, not like this is the tick box of what you do. I was really lucky I had a wife who basically gave me the permission that I couldn't give myself. Mhmm. And it was almost like an unspoken ultimatum.
Josh Fineman:She didn't make it an ultimatum, but she said, I can't do this anymore. Yeah. And that basically made me recognize what I'm putting her through and my young son through, and, like, I don't wanna be that guy. And I remember recognizing it's this realization of really my own mortality. So when she said that, it made me think about obviously, my mom had just got in a car crash, nearly died.
Josh Fineman:And I was like, well, like, when I'm on my deathbed, like, what am I gonna regret? And then as I I didn't think I needed therapy. I was it was still quite taboo for me. So I was like, oh, I'm not, like, suicidal, and I don't have, like, extreme mental health conditions. I'm not, like, right on the edge.
Josh Fineman:And I thought, oh, well, like, I quite like the idea of coaching. Being coached, that sounds quite cool. It's about the future and where you wanna move towards. And and as with so many experiences that I've had and others have now had with me, like, where you start is not where you end up with coaching. And and that first experience with this really wonderful coach called Lara Cullen, she we worked together for, I think, about eighteen months, and she really opened me up to learning about myself.
Josh Fineman:So like, who am I? What are my values? What what what are my patterns? Like, what is the life I want to create? What do I want?
Josh Fineman:Like, what do I actually want? And what small steps can I be taking to move towards that? And so that started to make me enjoy stuff again because I was like, wow, like, I'm learning and I'm sharing and I'm not on this kind of plateau and I'm growing. And it's not through doing or producing, it's just through, like, learning how to be. And then I think we did one big shift, my wife and I, which I didn't think was possible, which was we took two months out whilst I was running my creative agency and went traveling.
Tim Barber:Amazing. With the kids?
Josh Fineman:With our two year old.
Tim Barber:Kids at that
Josh Fineman:time. So that was about eighteen months into that. And that was overcoming another story in my head, which is I couldn't possibly take off more than ten days from work. Couldn't possibly do that.
Tim Barber:Far too important.
Josh Fineman:Far too important. Everything will fall apart. Yeah. And, you know, she she took me through a process of, like, just do something that feels uncomfortable and see what happens. And so I remember the resistance to it.
Josh Fineman:And we went from dreaming up, we'll go away for three months to, like, actually, let's just go away on a nice holiday for two weeks. And she's like, no. What's a period of time you don't think you can possibly do? And so we went away for two months in the end. I think that was a big shift in me as well because it was seeing the possibility of what happens when I realized I actually have a choice Mhmm.
Josh Fineman:In my life.
Tim Barber:There's I mean, there's there's so much there that that I wanna go after, but I think it's just really important to acknowledge the your wife. Yeah. I mean, I I can't remember where I heard it, but, you know, in a world where everyone's looking for, like, productivity hacks Yeah. And all this stuff, like, having a good life partner is the ultimate
Josh Fineman:Yeah.
Tim Barber:Life hack. Yeah. I feel, like, blessed with my own wife Yeah. Who puts up with all my shit, you know, because it sounds like, you know, not just that act of saying, I can't do this anymore. Yeah.
Tim Barber:You need some help, but also to give you the space to then do that help. Yeah. Exactly. And and not to be another voice saying, you're doing fine. Yeah.
Tim Barber:Build the business. Like, you know, in x number of years, we could really do Yeah. Money. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Fineman:A 100%. So, like, she was the catalyst. And actually, like, if I if I look back at defining moments in a lot of my life before then, and still to this day when I really need it's like, it is that person that gives that gave me the permission to go and believe I could actually go and do something. Mhmm. And I think like, that is the amazing thing about seeing a coach or a therapist or being in a group, being around other people who will say the things to you without the fear or the judgment or the needs to for you to be different to who you are.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. And just say, like, no, man. Like, you you can walk away. Or like, no, man. You can take that time off.
Josh Fineman:Or no, you can change your career. Or no, you you can just give it another month and see how it goes. You know, like, I think that's really powerful. So that was that was probably the catalyst. And then I would say, when my second son was born, as I said, the the other was just this, like, overwhelming sense of my own mortality.
Josh Fineman:Mhmm. And I remember this was 18 or so after my mom's accident when my second son was born, and I was still at the agency. We'd done our two months of traveling, but I was still I couldn't see the possibility of who I am if I leave this. I'm like I was now 30 I don't know, 32 or something. You know, like, I'd already changed career four times.
Josh Fineman:Like, I'd already I had two kids. Like, I had this thing, and I'm running my own business. And now I'm saying I'm gonna chuck it all away.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:Like, it was scary. And so my second son being born gave me the realization of a very simple thing of what's when my kids are 18 or 19 or 20, and they're about to enter the working road, and they may feel the same pain and pressure that I was feeling, this weight of how the fuck am I gonna do this? How am I gonna emulate the blueprint that was laid before me? And hopefully, they come to me and we have a conversation about it. Not what's the advice I wanna give them or what's the story I wanna tell them, but just like, what do I wanna share that happened to me?
Josh Fineman:What I did. The decisions that I made. The values that I held on to. The reasons why I made the decisions I made. Like, what do I wanna tell them?
Josh Fineman:And I was like, I don't wanna tell them that I ran a creative agency for the rest of my life. Mhmm. That isn't why I'm here. And so that was the, oh, I really do actually wanna leave. And that started the rest of the journey.
Tim Barber:Amazing. And what do you think it was that tipped you from feelings of stuckness from however long to this moment of actually leaving or starting Mench or whatever that next step was? Like, was it your mom's accident, the wife's your wife's comment, your son's birth, a bit of all of them? And I guess the reason I'm asking is I always like to ask the men I speak with who have gone through some transformative change, what was it? Yeah.
Tim Barber:Because I think there is something in that mix where someone has that stuck feeling that I'm sure a lot of dudes can resonate with
Josh Fineman:Mhmm.
Tim Barber:And the life on the other side. Yeah. You know? And for everyone, it's different. Maybe it's too hard to pinpoint, but I'm really interested in that idea of, like, what what was it that that made you go from there to there?
Josh Fineman:I just the word that comes up for me is permission. Mhmm. And and I think the flavor or the expression of that is it has been different in each shift that I've taken. It might have been permission from somebody else. It might have been permission from the perspective of an experience.
Josh Fineman:It might have been like death Mhmm. And realizing, like, wow, actually, like, not just how do I wanna be remembered. It's like, what do I wanna what do I wanna tell people when I'm on my deathbed? Like, you know? And like I said, like, just a massive obvious thing is community connection for me, just like people that see the the full me.
Tim Barber:I wanna spend a bit of time talking about what you see from the men you work with and and the men who who are part of Mench, but I guess that would require us to talk a bit about what you've built, what you spent the last few years doing. Tell me a bit about what Men's She is and and your men's work.
Josh Fineman:Sure. After I had that moment of my own mortality with my creative agency, it was around the time that I'd be introduced to my mentor called Kenny, Mamarella DeCruz, who ran an organization called Men's Speak. And Kenny's like an one of the OGs of the Yeah. The men's workspace. Yeah.
Josh Fineman:Amazing guy. And it was very serendipitous, our introduction. And he said, like, come to a men's group. And I was like, what the fuck is a men's group? Yeah.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. And, like, you know, like, is it even allowed in today's world? This was, like, in 2019 Yeah. You know, when Me Too was still relatively fresh, and there was this whole wave of narrative around inclusivity. And it was like it felt like I don't know.
Josh Fineman:Like, what is it? What is it? Is it a secret boys club? Like, what what is it? But he was such a lovely guy.
Josh Fineman:I was like, okay. I'll I'll go check it out. And the that first session, like, really changed the direction of my life. Because I think up to that point, I had been in space with coaches in a one on one capacity. And beyond that, my experience of being in deep conversation was, like, having deep chats with my mates Mhmm.
Josh Fineman:Which is kind of a different flavor of depth 100%. To within this kind of group. And so I went and it was like, wow. Like, I feel energized. I feel, like, supported.
Josh Fineman:I feel like I am feeling purposeful because I'm supporting these other people as well Mhmm. That are in this space. And we come from all different walks of life. Yeah. Like, we share so many challenges and I can relate to them.
Josh Fineman:And, oh, I'm not alone. And that was a big thing of, oh, wow. I'm not alone. And I have permission to share this stuff that, like, I don't really share anywhere else. Again, not because people necessarily wouldn't want me to share it, but just because I don't know if I'd be met how I want to be with it.
Josh Fineman:Mhmm. And that I was hooked and I was going, like, every week for six months and then COVID hit, and that was around the time that I had told my business partner I'm stepping back from our creative agency. And Kenny said, why don't you come and help me? I'll train you and a bunch of guys to facilitate within Men's Speak. It all went online.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. Loads of guys were coming in, and we were running these kind of hour long daily check ins, which still go on to this day. Yeah. So since COVID, Men's Speak's been running daily hour long check ins
Tim Barber:Wow.
Josh Fineman:Online facilitated Yeah. By lots of people. And, yeah. So I kind of learnt my chops Yeah. There.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. Very kind of nontraditional and, like, met guys from all walks of life. And and then at a certain point, about two years in, I was doing that. I was, like, coaching people one on one. I was, like, putting on workshops.
Josh Fineman:I was really just, like, throwing shit against the wall and seeing what stuck because I knew I wanted to do something that was about helping people feel alive. Like, that was the only thing, and, like, really helping people feeling seen. And that's what I loved in all of the aspects of my work previously. And and then I think I kind of plateaued. Like, the first year of experimenting was just incredible.
Josh Fineman:The second year, I was like, what the fuck am I doing with my life? I'm like, 35, and I then have a job, and I got two kids with one on the way now.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Fineman:I said to myself, I think I'm plateauing. Maybe I'll run my own men's group. Mhmm. I think I'm kind of ready to come out of the safety net of Kenny's organization. And so earlier that year, I'd gone on a camping trip with friends and I said so coming from a Jewish household, the word mensch Mhmm.
Josh Fineman:Is kind of banded around in our community a lot. So it means it's a German word that means human, to be human.
Tim Barber:Okay.
Josh Fineman:But in Yiddish, which is kind of old Jewish language, it means to be a person of integrity.
Tim Barber:Okay.
Josh Fineman:And before even knowing that definition, when I was on this camping trip, I said to friends, do you think you can teach someone to be a mensch? And they've immediately responded with, no. Can't teach it. Yeah. It's just implicit.
Josh Fineman:You either are or you aren't a mensch. And I'm normally someone who gets swayed quite a lot by other people's opinions, but in this particular matter, I was like, I think you're wrong. Yeah. But I don't I don't agree with you. And that was really different for me to say.
Josh Fineman:And so I I really noticed it. I was like, wow, there's this slight strong pull towards this thing that I think is true. So that's why I called the first group. I called it Mench. Yeah.
Josh Fineman:And and then one group led to two, led to three, led to four. And then after a year, I had maybe like five groups running. It was all online.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:And then maybe like seven or eight months in, it was like, wow, this is becoming something. This is amazing. How how do I build this into a business? And then as soon as I started asking myself the question, how do I build this into a business? It started becoming, like, heavy and weighty and the pressure and the proving and all the things that I had left behind was coming back in.
Josh Fineman:And I didn't burn out, but I was on the verge of burning out because I was running groups, like, three, four times a week Yeah. From, like, eight till 10:30. And so I took really six months to slow down and recover from it. And then I asked myself, okay, like, I know I want to do something in this space. I'm enjoying the coaching.
Josh Fineman:I'm enjoying the groups. I love men's work. This is like, I'm meant to be doing this, but I don't wanna do it the way I've been doing it. And so I just slowly started making shifts and, you know, it's been a kind of community and initiative that's really expanded and then contracted and expanded again and then contracted and it's really evolved. And then at some point, I was like, I think I wanna run a retreat because I was doing a lot of online private groups.
Josh Fineman:So the same group of guys Yeah. Who met. And I tried one place a couple of hours outside of London with a group and it was really fun, but it wasn't quite right. And then I was on a run-in park with a friend and someone bumped into me and said, oh, I wanna introduce you to my jujitsu instructor.
Tim Barber:Okay.
Josh Fineman:He lives ten minutes down the road to me and he basically owns a farm site, like five acres of land, and he lives on there, and he's built a yurt tent where he practices yoga, amazing martial arts, and somatic work, and he wants to run a men's retreat. And so it was just one of those beautiful, serendipitous, okay. That's where life wants to invite me into. It's that easy. It's like and so I met up with him.
Josh Fineman:We ran a retreat together. And then since then, we have for the last, like, eighteen months, we run swims on a Friday morning. He's got, like, a swimming pond. Mhmm. So we do this Friday morning ritual where we, practice some yoga, have a cold swim, have a sauna, and then have, a coffee, and we have a little check-in.
Josh Fineman:And the more work I've done with him in this kind of nature based environment, the more I've recognized what really brings me alive is bringing men in person into environments that unplug them from the everyday. Yeah. And the more I recognise for myself actually what had been lacking for me in this whole journey was a sense of local community. Mhmm. Like, I had great support.
Josh Fineman:I had my mentor who was my supervisor. I had my own men's group mastermind of other practitioners in the space. But I didn't have this sense of I have a local physical space that I go to. Yeah. And there's within the people that go there, three or four guys where we're kind of like a men's group together.
Josh Fineman:And I was like, shit, I think I wanna build a local men's group of a 100 men. And I want them to live within two miles of each other. And I'm pretty certain that with enough time and patience, I will be able to find those men because there are definitely a 100 men who live within Yeah. Maybe a bit more than two miles Sure. But live within a few miles of me Yeah.
Josh Fineman:Who would love this and need it. And so I started moving my coaching to in person. All of my group stuff is in person. I now just have two groups. I really scaled it down, and I'm like, I wanna cultivate these private groups.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:And I don't care how big or small they are. It's about just creating an amazing experience for the men who are within it Mhmm. And building from there. And I will run these community wide activities every week where anyone can come. And, of course, it's, like, paid for and Yeah.
Josh Fineman:You know? But but, know, if people can't afford it, just let me know. Like, it's very, like, I I this is what I wanna create. And and slowly but surely, that's that's what I'm building. Amazing.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. So it's kind of this space where men can feel like they're on an adventure together.
Tim Barber:Yeah. That's why it's because because I guess, you know, can be guilty of assuming everyone knows what we're talking about or, Yeah. Like, everyone is in this space as much as we are. To the uninitiated or to, yeah, maybe to a man who's in that stuck space. Yeah.
Tim Barber:Who's like, what the fuck is a men's Yeah.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. What
Tim Barber:what like, whether it's men's or just in general, like, what can people expect from a men's group and, you know, what might draw someone towards it?
Josh Fineman:Yeah. So I tend to find that the men who join groups are men who are looking for some sense of camaraderie or belonging that seems to be missing. Maybe they feel like they're outgrowing their friends or that the friends that they meet, they meet at the pub or they talk about surface level stuff. Or even if it's deep stuff, there are things that are going on for them that they don't wanna share with them. And as I said, actually, maybe these men are at a stage in life where there's a part of them deep down that is craving that.
Josh Fineman:And it can be quite scary, and that's really normal, like, to enter that kind of arena, so to speak. Mhmm. But it's definitely the sense of, like, I am lacking some sense of purpose. I'm lacking lacking some sense of camaraderie right now. And I miss it Mhmm.
Josh Fineman:Because I used to have it at some point. Or I've never had it and I wanna find it. And I wanna do it with other men because I've either miss it or it feels like something that I need and want. So that's generally what I'm finding is a sense of aloneness and looking for camaraderie.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:And, you know, like, you can call it brotherhood or fellowship or any of this stuff. I don't know if that language lands, but it's definitely the sense of, like, I wanna feel part of something again.
Tim Barber:Yeah. I know what you mean. I I think that point about language can is, you know, it's almost feels pedantic, but it's almost so true because I think sometimes the men who might need this the most or benefit from it the most are put off Yeah. Or can be put off.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. A bit
Tim Barber:like what you said, fuck, I needed therapy. It was a bit of a taboo.
Josh Fineman:Yeah.
Tim Barber:Like, there's still even though there's more of this going on, which is amazing Yeah. I do think there's still a bit of a barrier Yeah. That people have to get over.
Josh Fineman:And that's okay. I wrote a thing on this actually for some companies that I'm working with around how to communicate to men. Again, not like I'm some sort of guru in this, but I just noticed that, you know, even for, like, talks, can you come and talk about fatherhood and mental health? It's like, yeah. But, like, we can't call it that because Yeah.
Josh Fineman:Dads won't show up for that. I think what men are generally craving is a sense of purpose and that they're on some sort of journey or quest. Mhmm. You know? And, like and, like, when you're working your nuts off in your high pressure career, and then you come home and you're a dad or you have a partner that needs you and your only form of solitude or escape or recharging is going to the gym or it's watching Netflix or it's going out drinking or it's doing drug.
Josh Fineman:It's like you're not giving yourself what most people really need, which is I wanna actually be seen and met, and I wanna feel like I belong. Yeah. And I and I think the power of the groups, as I said before, you cannot say anything in the group and still feel incredibly connected and a part of something. Mhmm. And you can feel both, or I certainly do, that I'm I'm gaining and I'm supporting.
Josh Fineman:And I think men like to feel like they're useful and that they can help. And we're in a world right now where I think a lot of the narrative is we don't need you or like the the thing that you think is useful for society isn't useful anymore. And I think men are craving being useful and responsible.
Tim Barber:100%. It's a controversial source, but I always keep coming back to a Joe Rogan quote
Josh Fineman:Yeah. Which comes up
Tim Barber:quite a lot, which is that, like, most men live a life of quiet desperation.
Josh Fineman:Yeah.
Tim Barber:Yeah. And that's the one that I keep coming back to in my mind of, like, you know, where you were five years ago, where I was five years ago. Just like, you're sort of listlessly in a career Yeah. Doing what you thought you should do. Yeah.
Tim Barber:You go on your phone, everything's going to shit around you, don't know your neighbors. Yeah. And and that's why I particularly love the sort of local element of what you do because for me, one, it's the it's the men's work, right? But two, it's the the local men's work, the men around you. And the fact that it's in person and it's about moving your body too, it hits a number of things, right, from getting off your phone
Josh Fineman:Yeah.
Tim Barber:Getting moving, particularly if you're working in a desk Yeah. Yeah. Just need it. Yeah. Where does that bring us to now in terms of, like, you and and how you spend your time?
Josh Fineman:Yeah. It's a really lovely question. I think this relates to a lot of men that I see as well is, like, when I talk to these men who are like, is this it? And I ask them, like, what do you actually what do you want? Like, if we could wave a wand, what do you want?
Josh Fineman:And a lot of the guys I speak to are, like, young dads like me in their mid thirties to mid forties. And and the word that they keep using is presence. They want to actually be present. They want to feel like they can come home from work and that they can be there with their kids or be there with their partner if they don't have kids or just be in their life. And it's interesting because when I've spoken to my dad previously about this, that word didn't really land with him.
Josh Fineman:He didn't really understand it. But actually, going down a generation, that's the word that I keep. I I just wanna feel like I'm present. And I know myself that when I was in that phase, my wife said it's like you're a zombie. There's a glazed look at my eyes.
Josh Fineman:You're not here. You're not here. And so when I think about my life now, what I'm trying to do is like, I love my kids and I wanna be a present dad for them. And equally, I am a guy who's has some sort of craving purpose mission to crack people's souls open Yeah. And help them feel alive and present.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. And so my life now is about how can I be and it's not perfect, and I'm not perfect? And I can slip into the same holes that the people I coach and and help. And it's good to be able to notice when I'm slipping out. So, like, I want to be as present as I can for my kids.
Josh Fineman:I wanna be as considerate and patient and loving and romantic as I can with my wife. Mhmm. I wanna take care of my body and take care of myself and refill my cup. So, like, the Friday swims for me are a joy because that's I would do that if no one shows up. Yeah.
Josh Fineman:I don't give a I don't care who shows up. I'm just doing it and come along if you want. And I wanna build something meaningful. And that doesn't mean I wanna build a city or an empire. I wanna build the thing I actually want from a place of like, what does enough look like?
Josh Fineman:Not just what does more look like. And this is something that we talk about a lot in my mastermind group is like, I don't just want to build something for the sake of building it. Like, I wanna think about what does enough feel like? And I feel on the whole I have that, you know, and I'm like, what a life that I that I have and have created. And I was actually trolled on LinkedIn recently Okay.
Josh Fineman:Which I'm pretty sure counts for like a thousand trolls on other platforms. Like, who trolls on LinkedIn?
Tim Barber:That's a special kind of human being.
Josh Fineman:And he said something to me that really, like, ate me up when he first said it because I know I've come from incredible privilege. Yeah. Like, I know that.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:And for many reasons. And one of the obvious reasons for it is because I came from money. Yeah. And I actually, I could take some of the risks that some people find really hard to take because I knew there was a safety net underneath. And this guy basically came to me and said, easy for you to create that life for yourself when, you know, daddy has supported you for however many years.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. And like, you should just count yourself lucky and privileged to have had that. And it really triggered just a lot of shame and embarrassment and I don't deserve this and like I'm not working hard enough and I need to prove all all of that old stuff came up and I just I really paused and breathed and really felt into it, and and I responded as calmly as I could to him privately. Yeah. And I just said to him, number one, yeah, I'm fucking privileged.
Josh Fineman:I am unbelievably blessed. Mhmm. And, yes, one of the reasons for that is because of the the money that I've had. I've said, but I'm also incredibly privileged because I have parents that love me and a wife that I actually have deep conversations with. And I've built support systems around myself.
Josh Fineman:And I listed a number of things that I'm privileged for. And I said, and I meet people and I work with people who have a thousand times more money than me and are in way worse a position than I am. And I meet people who have a thousand times less money than me and are more free Yeah. Than I possibly will ever be. So I say that because I think it's I just wanna say, like, I've created this life for myself, which is deeply privileged, but it's privileged for so many different levels.
Josh Fineman:And it hasn't been easy. And it takes work and and it's worth it.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Yeah. No. I I get it. And, like, the reality is every time I'm asking people how they got from there to there, regardless of their starting point, it's always a messy multi year process that starts with some catalyst moment Yeah.
Tim Barber:Some underlying thought that wasn't addressed.
Josh Fineman:Yeah.
Tim Barber:And, you know, five years later, they weren't where they expected to be, but, you know, privilege or not
Josh Fineman:Yeah.
Tim Barber:To whatever degree in any of the areas that you listed
Josh Fineman:Yeah.
Tim Barber:It it all started with a choice to
Josh Fineman:do something. Exactly. Choice and permission.
Tim Barber:Yeah. And that's not to disavow or not acknowledge the the privilege as you as you did. Right? A 100%. It makes certain things easier than
Josh Fineman:A it does for 100%.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:But I think there's a there was a sense in that of, like, just taking ownership
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:Being like, no, like, I've been on a journey and I've created this I've created this and I've been I've supported myself and been supported to do it. Yeah. And so it is possible.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'd be remiss before we finish to like not, you know, you've you've mentioned your kids and you've mentioned separately about about your father. Like, what comes up for you when you think about the messages you took from your dad, what they meant in your formative years, now you being a dad yourself, thinking about the message you're gonna give to your kids. What comes up for you when you think about that?
Josh Fineman:Well, as I said at the beginning, I think my my answer to that may have shifted over time, but I've recently just been asking myself, what is it that my dad gave me? Like, what did he actually give me that I've absorbed and taken on directly, and what is it that he's given me from the thing that may have been lacking for him? And I think when it comes to the what I'm trying to share with my kids, what I am taking from my dad is humility, and I'm taking the the courage to build something and be passionate about the work that you're doing whilst what he did is not something I was interested in. Like, he was really passionate about it. And his incredible sense of humor, you know, like, he he has an ability to diffuse tense situations beautifully, like really perfectly.
Josh Fineman:They're big things that I think I'm just passing on naturally to my kids. And then I think the things that maybe not through his fault, but just were maybe lacking that I am trying to pass on to my kids that he couldn't is trying. And he'd probably try and he does. He tries in his own ways with the tools he had. Right?
Josh Fineman:But it's really trying to listen and understand and be patient with my kids, really trying to remember that they're children. And that, like, they just wanna hang out with me.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:And so really cherishing that and trying to be as present as I can in those moments with them because I'll look back one day and it would have gone. Yeah. And I think the thing that I may struggle with, which he struggled with, and no doubt when I'm older, we'll laugh about that I'm probably going through as well, which I think is the challenge for most parents is just supporting them, but not trying to fix or save them. Like really let let them fail and let them know it's okay and let them know that it's not failure and that they don't need to prove anything. And and again, like, I don't think it was his fault, but I'm not sure that was the message I maybe received.
Josh Fineman:And I really, really want my kids to grow up being courageous and just trying things and knowing that I'll be there for them.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:And one of my favorite quotes that I'll end on is said by this rabbi that came up in, like, an Instagram feed or something. It was incredible. He said, the role of every parent is to make sure that when your children think about you, it fills them with belief. Mhmm. And I was like Yeah.
Josh Fineman:That's it. Yeah. That's literally it. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Fineman:That and that's the challenge.
Tim Barber:That's amazing, isn't it? It's such a complicated, messy thing because we won't know Yeah.
Josh Fineman:Of course.
Tim Barber:Until months later on. You know, I guess the fact that you're even asking that question of yourself and thinking about those things suggests, you know, you're doing the right thing, and when you highlight those things that you took from your dad of humility, passion, the ability to use humor, like, what are three great things to be able to hold on to whilst perhaps adding some others that you might wish they had. Yeah. There's another quote, which is not quite so beautiful, but which I use quite a lot, which is that we're all messing up our kids. We're just trying to do it as little as possible.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. I love it. My I love that. My friend has this piece of artwork at home, which is something like, have kids, mollycoddle them, or let them make mistakes or something like that, and then at the end, it's kids need to go to therapy. Yeah.
Josh Fineman:It's like it's the rite of passage of of every human to my mum really doesn't like this, but I really believe it's the rite of passage for every human being to start in some sort of whole pure way to to break and then to and then the journey is to heal that. You know? And that's the right and so, like, my kids are gonna have their wounds that and my role is to support them in whatever way they need me to to heal them.
Tim Barber:Totally. And look, this is the wrong thing to bring up an hour into the podcast, but, like, that is the origins of masculinity work. Right? Literally giving boys physical and mental wounds, ripping them away from their parents, and then having them heal from that, which is a whole another thing. But like, yeah, we've gotta find the twenty twenty five We version of
Josh Fineman:do, man. Yeah. We do.
Tim Barber:And that that, you know, there is something about us all, like, doing that in our mid thirties because we've just been listlessly going through these careers.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. Exactly. But it's like it's if it feels like a really exciting time. Like, I know we're we're both in this growing initiative as well. It feels like, you know, this what we do, this world has been around.
Josh Fineman:Like, you know, I'm just forgetting about thousands of years, but the modern version since, like, don't know, the fifties or sixties or something. So it's not like it's new, but I feel like we're in this new version of and it feels really like we're part of something that's growing.
Tim Barber:100%. Yeah. You know, like, we we we grow up inheriting this script, and you just take it for granted that, like, well, everyone's got this all worked out.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. And then
Tim Barber:you learn a bit more, and you're like Yeah. Well, fucking hell. Like, this pretty new.
Josh Fineman:Yeah.
Tim Barber:And for a very long time, this is not how stuff was done.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Barber:So, you know, it's no wonder that just, like, crack on and get on Yeah. With it is not working.
Josh Fineman:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We
Tim Barber:might have to save that for another episode, though, because we just have about to pop open another can of worms, we haven't got the time for that. Josh, it's been amazing. Thank you so much.
Josh Fineman:Thank you for having me.
Tim Barber:What would you direct people to to either learn about Mench or or something else they might need to hear?
Josh Fineman:Visit the website, bemorementch.com. And then I attempted to be on most social platforms and then stopped. Yeah. But I am quite active on LinkedIn. Yeah.
Josh Fineman:I always talk to anyone who wants to talk and then point them in the direction of the people or communities or things that I think could help them, you know, mention or not mention.
Tim Barber:Amazing. And any final words of encouragement to a man who's like, I don't know. Yeah.
Josh Fineman:Like, I come back to when you're on your deathbed, what are you gonna regret? Yeah. What is it you want the people you care about the most to say about you? What they learnt from you? How you made them feel?
Josh Fineman:And when you think about those questions, which are frankly the only questions that we should probably think about, like how are you doing? And if you're not doing well or you could be doing better, do something about it.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Josh Fineman:Because it's gonna be not just for you, this work and this world. And I think a lot of guys resist because I can possibly take time out, I can take time out for myself, and I think they miss the big picture. Like, I am a better husband, I'm a better father, I'm a better leader, I'm a better friend, I'm a better son, I'm a better brother because of this stuff that I do.
Tim Barber:Good one. Thank you. Nice, man.
Josh Fineman:Thank you.
Tim Barber:How do feel?
Josh Fineman:I feel great. Good. How do you feel?
Tim Barber:So there you go. That was my conversation with Josh. I mean, look, he's an amazing guy. What's not to like? And I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did.
Tim Barber:And I did spend a bit of time talking about the career change because I do think it is a very tactical, practical thing that a lot of dudes struggle with, particularly those who've fallen into a career that they're perhaps not sure is the right thing for them long term, looking around them, you know, at their life, at the world they've built for themselves, perhaps they've got kids, perhaps they haven't, and wondering if this is it, as Josh said. So I hope it resonated with you. I hope it spurs you to because ultimately that's what drives change. And please, as ever, do like, subscribe, and share this podcast so that we can grow this movement man by man, story by story. Work hard, be kind, and I will catch you at the next one.