078 | Chris Le Beau | Emotional Storytelling in Cocktail Menu | Decoding Cocktails Podcast

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, with guest Chris LeBeau, we explore the nuances of flavor profiles, consumer preferences, and the intricacies of crafting an exceptional cocktail.

LeBeau shares insights on how different cultural backgrounds and personal tastes influence drink choices and experiences.

He discusses the importance of storytelling and emotions in drink presentation, the role of brands in cocktail creation, and how bartenders and consumers can better communicate to achieve a satisfying drinking experience.

The dialogue emphasizes understanding where good drinks originate, looking beyond brands to quality ingredients, and exploring novel mixer concepts.

The episode invites listeners to embrace drink-making with a discerning palate and open mind. 00:00 Welcome to the Mafeo Drinks Podcast

00:28 The Ferris Wheel of 50 Best Bars

00:54 Taste Profiles and Restaurant Experiences

03:02 Categorizing Cocktails and Menu Descriptions

07:55 Brand Influence on Cocktail Menus

10:34 Personal Preferences and Cocktail Choices

17:51 Cultural Influences on Taste

21:29 The Impact of Small Additions in Cocktails

21:57 Bridging Taste Profiles: From Rum to Whiskey

22:41 Exploring Boulevardier Variations

23:47 Understanding Barrel Aging and Spirit Mellowing

24:55 Building Trust with Customers2

5:32 Maximizing Tasting Experiences in Classes

26:09 Avoiding Assumptions in Drink Preferences

30:18 The Importance of Reading the Room

36:55 Evaluating Bartender Skills and Drink Quality

39:42 Final Thoughts and How to Connect

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Chris LeBeau

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Chris Le Beau

Host | Decoding Cocktails

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

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Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm Chris Maffeo, your host and
fellow drinks builder.

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episode transcripts.
Now let's dive into today's

episode.
So I just think that, you know,

for those who are on the Ferris
wheel of chasing to be on A50

best bar list, I can't help you
because you know, there's a game

to be played and you can figure
that out.

But on that list, so many people
are coming there because you're

on the list.
And I promise you, most of them

respectfully have no clue what
they're doing.

And so they're going to get a
panic order.

They see Margarita and they're
going to order without even

still conceptualizing what
you're trying to sell them.

Anyways, that's that's my rant.
But this is super, super, super

interesting because like for me,
my wife and I like I had to

have, we have different kind of
like taste profiles and, and for

example, of course, like when we
go to a Czech restaurant, like

she takes it from a Czech
perspective, I take it from an

Italian perspective.
So it's totally different angles

now and then when we go to nicer
places, because then I tend to

go to nicer places where I know
that maybe we can also get a

cocktail and so on.
You know, she sees something on

the menu which has a traditional
name, so she goes for it because

she's in the mood for that kind
of food now.

So it could be, I don't know,
like a goulash or whatever.

But then what she gets, it's
often very a strange thing

because it's a revisited kind of
goulash.

And then she looks at the at the
plate and she, you know, she was

like, what the hell is this?
Because it's totally different,

which is exactly the same or
what she's saying about, you

know, the 50 best bars kind of
example.

Now that you know what you see
as a name that it could be like

whatever, like a crazy Margarita
on name on a cocktail.

Maybe it's got nothing to do
with Margarita.

Maybe it's just like something
that the bartender in a very

creative mood compared to a
Margarita just because that

there's tequila in it.
But then all the rest is like

nothing to do with a Margarita
or any anything else.

And so like that there's also
this kind of like thing like to

guide people.
No, and a question I have for

you is that, you know, because
you've been talking to so many

people that are, let's say, non
professional in the industry.

So to say, how how do they
approach that?

Do you know, do they approach it
from a flavor profile or from a

category point of view?
Is it is the guy or the girl

coming like I like rum, you
know, I usually drink rum.

I want to learn about making
cocktails with rum.

Or is it more like I like fruity
things or I like bits or things,

or how do they know I'm probably
there's no, you know, right or

wrong question, But it's it's
more like to just to understand,

like where usually people just
like just to put some statistics

to your experience.
Yeah.

So the first thing I'd say, and
this is, you know, I've only, I

can only have been to so many
restaurants and bars.

There are bars I know who are
run by very good people who I

still think their menus are
written very atrociously.

Now, I think in general, I think
grouping cocktails because I

don't want this to all be a
negative rant.

I just think that we, I think
we're, you know, cocktails are

still growing up and so we're
having to learn more about them

now.
I do think that in general, the

more productive way that people
are doing is they are beginning

to categorize by more style of
drink, whether that is a

traditional name that, you know,
more of a martini style or

they're they give you these
attributes again, like boozy and

abrasive, for example.
So I think the way that people

are beginning to talk about
these things are great.

But I even heard about this from
you or for someone.

But yeah, in some cases some
brands are paying or offering

small incentives to be listed by
brand name on a menu.

And if I didn't hear that from
you, I heard it from somebody

else.
But.

No, no, it was me.
It was probably me, OK.

There you go.
And so, yeah, I think like,

people know what Grey Goose is,
but nobody knows what Sue's is

or knows that, you know, what
Luxardo Bitter Bianco is.

And so I think that places are
doing it well.

Often have a subcategory of
menu.

So styles of drinks and then a
playful or a useful description

or a couple of words, you know,
you know, a little sweet, a

little sour, a little bitter.
OK, great.

Like, I think any of those kinds
of just directional pieces right

here.
Oh, smells like a strawberry

garden, you know, at the end of
fall harvest.

That's so much more helpful than
listing out ingredients right

there.
So I think this idea of what

kind of mood is this going to
impart or where does this take

them when they drink this drink?
This is from the book the

Bartender's Manifesto.
But they were talking about

smell, about drinking agave
spirits.

And this guy said, wow, this
reminds me of when I was growing

up at the fair in Mexico and I
was eating cotton candy.

But I was standing right next to
a vendor with a gas generator.

So it was like this I this play
on cotton candy and gasoline or

whatever, which whether or not
you think that sounds

interesting, you are right there
with him in that moment.

And so I think, where does this
drink take you?

What does it remind you of?
What are the general vibes of

it?
You know, emotions are so

powerful, you know, so telling a
quick story or conveying

emotions about a drink.
This is the drink you want in

hand when you're watching your
team play American football on a

Sunday.
OK.

Like that's that's a situation
right there.

So I think these things, they
give people interesting

directional vibes.
And I think that that the the

thing that's interesting is like
regarding the ingredients is

that's a very clinical way to
talk about the drink.

And that's OK.
But the average person doesn't

know what that clinical pieces
and having to write more of a a

warm hearted emotional statement
that is a very vulnerable or

courageous thing.
And so I think it's a little bit

scary.
Like, I can confidently as a

bartender tell you that I put,
you know, bruto Americano in

this.
But like, what does this drink

mean to me?
That's a little bit more of an

emotional statement, right?
There, that's that's a fantastic

way of explaining it because it
makes me think, you know, like

it's like you, you have to
understand where that person is

now that you know, if you don't
have that information like an

another thing, like to build on
what you were saying, like

totally agree on is that the
type of glassware that it comes

with now, you know, like
sometimes like I order a drink

based on the spirits.
I like, you know, like first of

all, there's always like when
there is too much information on

the menu, you know, it tends to
be like a kind of like tick the

box, like a point system.
No, I say, oh, there's gin,

there's this, there's shit.
No, I hate this one.

It's like five ingredients.
And then I like shit, you know,

like 4 out of five were great,
but the fifth one, I hate it.

And it, it, it becomes almost
like a competition.

But then also sometimes I end up
ordering one drink and and then

I get it in a glass that I hate.
You know, maybe I get it in a

martini glass, or maybe it's
like it, there's, there's no

eyes.
You know, I, I envision a nice

Tumblr with a nice big piece of
ice.

And then all of a sudden I have
this kind of like very martini

esque, you know, glass ice peel
all over.

And I mess up when I'm drinking
like, and I and I'm wearing a

white shirt and basically like
it's gone forever.

There is this this element as
well, but also another point

that I was thinking about what
you were talking is that isn't

that also like a problem from a
brand side of things?

Because to your examples, you
know, it sounds also like that

there's a lot of brands that and
I see these in your in Europe as

well that they're pushing to be
on the cocktail menu now.

So all of a sudden it's like I
can support you on this cocktail

program, but you need to go my
name on it.

You know, I want to have my Ma
Fell rye whiskey into the menu,

so you must put it, you know,
and then all of a sudden that

hijacks the old thing because
all of a sudden is like a bunch

of names that people have never
heard of.

But what is this supposed to to
taste like?

Yeah, the brand thing is a very
interesting, there's not a good

answer to it, but like I, I
think it's kind of both ends of

things because, you know, I
mean, you could name them better

in Czech Republic, in Italy and
Europe than I can.

We run into this thing where I
think brands are reassuring and

hopefully good statements of
quality.

But I think as well in the
intimidating cocktail bar, they

become too much of A focus or a
defensive position for some

people.
It's about social, it's about

status signaling.
But like for those people who

want to drink that it's more
important to be seen drinking

this.
They want to be able to be past

that or see the bartender pull
that down.

But I think at times, like when
someone comes in and they know

they want Jack Daniels or
whatever, how much of that is a

status signalling, a safety
precaution standpoint because

they're worried about looking
dumb?

So I think there's moments where
the brands have done their job

because they have seeped their
way into people's mind.

You know, Tito's Vodka, it's
like, I what I understand is

that the whole vodka market is
kind of tanking right now in the

US while Tito's Vodka is just
exploding it.

Is this incredible moment of
they have created themselves as

vodka?
It's amazing marketing story,

truly.
Absolutely.

But but it becomes the thing
like not all vodka suddenly got

bad.
It's more people just they feel

safe making that call or
sometimes it's a status thing.

And so I think it's great for us
to highlight things that make

what we do possible.
But I think at times it can

exist in a way that at least in
terms of people exploring the

drink world, that they're afraid
to go any further either because

the only name they've ever heard
of in gin is Tangaray and they

didn't like it in the martini.
So they just know gin is bad or

it's all they will ever drink.
And not everybody's meant to be

an explorer.
But I think that brand can have

this two sided be positives and
negatives.

Yeah, I agree.
I agree.

And and and I mean like to your
point, for example, on gym, I I

think what the bad experience of
gym in the US, you know, has a

counterpart in Euro, which is
tequila.

You know, whenever you mention
tequila is like the devil now

it's now it's changing of course
with the high quality tequilas.

But back in Italy was like
tequila boom boom or tequilas

and rice or tequila, whatever.
You just like had it.

That's a shot like your tears in
your eyes when you were drinking

it.
But what's also very important

is to explain people, you know,
like, and I came to this

conclusion during an episode.
Like, I can't remember which one

it was, but I was saying, like,
for example, I didn't like gin

and tonic.
And I always thought that I

didn't like gin, but it wasn't
the gin.

It was like Schweppes.
We like Indian tonic, you know,

with a very distinctive taste
with the lemon or the lime that

I was getting in, you know, and
I don't like citrusy kind of

flavors.
You know, I'm more of a

bittersweet kind of guy, you
know, like a Negroni and

Boulevardi and you name it.
But everything that is like, you

know, a sour and all these kind
of things like I don't, I tend

not to like them.
And then it took me a while to

understand when I started
drinking, for example, Hendrix,

you know, with the cucumber and
so on.

It made me think and it's like
actually like I like Jim, I just

said I didn't like the lemon
when I started drinking Hendrix.

It was also together with Fever
Tree and double, you know, like

all these Mediterranean tonics,
you know, like different kind of

tonics than the typical Indian
tonic water.

Then I started to go more into
London dry because I said, OK,

maybe I like Hendrix, but let me
try if I still like a classic,

you know, London dry gym.
And I liked it, you know, but so

the issue was the lemon and that
kind of tonic.

It wasn't the gym.
So I think it's a similar thing

with tequila.
It's like maybe you had it, you

know, you had a shot 3:00 AM in
the morning on the dance floor.

Somebody brought it to you, you
know, have you tried sipping?

It's Aquila.
And I remember when I lived in

Stockholm, it was exactly like
this.

I, I was throwing a party in a,
in a bar and the bar manager to

thank me because I brought in
all these people.

I was like, no charge.
It was like just like a get

together.
They're organized.

And but back then it was small
world.

I'm not sure remember that.
And it was funny because I think

back then, I think he was a
patron, if I remember right.

And he was like, yo, let's have
a shot.

Let's have a tequila.
I was like, shit, no, no, no,

no, no, no.
And he said, like, believe me,

let's have this one.
And, you know, he opened this

reposado basil, and I loved it.
And I was like, is this tequila?

Are you sure?
It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, you'll be surprised.
It's also like, you know, kind

of like unlearning what you know
about a spirit and relearning it

into another way, which is what
you were saying, you know, back

at the at the beginning.
Yeah, I think memory and emotion

and flavor and hangovers, you
know, are all real things that

can cast a long shadow.
But yeah, I think what I find

often is reintroducing people
that are open to it to a

category that they often had too
much of or likely in tandem also

too poor of a quality of.
It's like, oh, yeah.

And not everything is meant to
be sipped meat, you know, for

everybody.
It's like, I think about it like

a like a coffee, you know.
Like, I mean, you know, take

somebody out for espresso as
their first coffee unless

they're born in Italy and that
they're probably not going to

make it, right.
So but that's where you start

with like, you know, cappuccino
or something like that.

And it helps like the milk can
help kind of ease people into

the pool in class.
Like if we're ever drinking a

drink and you're like, I hate
this, you should stop drinking

it immediately.
But if it's something that

you're like, oh, this is a
little too can you put, can you,

can you name what that is?
Oh, to your point with the gin,

right.
Oh, this is a little too.

Oh, OK, what do we have that can
adjust that?

And some points it's starting
with a different style of

product to begin with.
But over time we begin to

unpack.
It's like it's these flavors

more than anything.
I agree.

I agree.
And I mean, we, we tend to talk

like in the on trade about, you
know, allergies and things that

are of course serious, but we
don't talk about what you don't

like.
You know, it's like, it's like,

it doesn't kill me, but I hate
it.

And for example, for me, I
basically everything.

One thing I hate is cinnamon.
I hate it.

I can't stand it, you know, and
I've got a detector.

I could be like a police dog at
the airport sniffing, you know,

cinnamon in suitcases.
I can get it everywhere, you

know, like in a cocktail, in the
food, in a suite or whatever,

like it.
And I challenge them, you know,

I said there was cinnamon in his
in and that the waiter was like,

no, that there's no cinnamon.
I was like, can you ask the

chef?
And then the chef comes out now

and it's like, honestly, I put
like a tablespoon, like just

like the tip of a tablespoon in,
I don't know, 2 kilos of dao.

It's like, sorry, man, you know,
I got it.

It's funny because sometimes
like that can put you off.

You know, you can give me the
best cocktail ever.

You put cinnamon to elevate it
and to make it cool, and then

I'll stop drinking it, you know?
So sometimes it's also this kind

of information are also helpful
for people, which of course,

like I'm not saying that people
should accommodate all the weird

taste profiles of people.
But sometimes you should also

make it more kind of like
approachable for people so that

you don't put coriander or
cinema or, you know, all this

diverging kind of flavors and
taste profiles.

Yeah.
And I think in addition to that,

because I, I agree that there
are some things like, oh, you

know, gin is not just going to
be your thing because juniper

isn't your flavor.
OK.

I can mean there's, there are
gins that are more juniper

forward, but yes, whether that's
cinnamon.

And I think as well in an era
going back to that restaurant

that charges the same amount for
a pizza as they do for a

cocktail, basically, I think
there's a whole other level of

obligation here, which is if
someone's going to be paying

$17.00 US for a cocktail and
that's by charitable, you know,

in your, in New York, you're in
the 20s most, a lot of the time

now, not all the time.
But I think that we have an

obligation to try to help people
arrive at a drink that is more

their style too, because 1.
Otherwise that drink could get

sent back or that's going to
like take away from their

experience.
We're putting the burden on them

to ask what is this thing right
here?

Now, if it is a thing where we
disguise that there is coconut

in here and they don't like
coconut, well, that's a whole

other issue too.
But sometimes we also want the

person to end up with a drink
they like.

And we could also give them more
information on that, you know,

with trace amount of ingredients
like cinnamon.

You know, when you got the mafia
dog around like it's that's

something else.
You have to like square right

there when you're putting the
trace amount of cinnamon and

something.
But yeah, there are things you

just don't like.
And so it is where restaurants,

I think can or bars can do a
slightly better job at trying to

get to understand what people
think they like.

Like I, I would probably not try
to put you in front of a citrusy

cocktail because it's not your
thing.

And so either the menu can help
with that or the the waitstaff

or the bartender can help with
that.

I agree.
I agree.

And and this also comes back to
one question I wanted to ask

you, which is the role that
actually your origin play into

the game now, because I mean,
you mentioned before, you know,

I grew up with coffee.
I don't know when I had my first

one, whatever, but I drink it
black, no sugar, basically as a

shot.
Or I can, I can drink any

because I mean, I've been living
abroad for 19 years now.

So it's a bit of a different
kind of taste profile now and

palate.
But when it comes to you, for

example, like, you know, talking
Midwest, do you think that the

people you are working with, you
know, are they?

I would assume they are
naturally born with bourbon.

We grew up with bitters, you
know, we grew up with

Limoncello, we grew up with
Nochino, we grew up with all

sort of bitters going from
Montenegro to Fernet Branca.

You know, we cover the full
taste profile that you can

imagine.
Which role does that play for

you?
I assume like in San Luis, like

this similar kind of people that
come to you, does that play a

role into what they like?
That is like they all kind of

like befall to certain things
and then you need to bring them

to experience something else to
to get them out of their comfort

zone.
So yesterday I at, while I was

talking about, you know,
aromatic bitters as well as, you

know, drinkable bitters like
Montenegro and Campari and

whatnot, I said to this group, I
was like, if I'm working with a

group with, with, with, with,
with a class that is more from

Italy, France, Germany, South
Asia, I know that they have more

bitter foods in their cuisine.
And therefore I'm less concerned

about rolling bitter ingredients
from them.

You know, bitter is a very
polarizing thing here.

So yes, I do think origin,
having grown up here in the

Midwest, but I lived for a
little while in Southeast Asia

and Malaysia.
And yeah, like, I mean, one of

my friends, I can still picture
him like, you know, sitting on

sitting in his apartment while
he was, you know, right up a

little snack pack eating these
like fermented fish bites.

And I was like, that smells
heinous to me.

I was like, that's, that's,
that's like a crime, you know?

And there he is.
But so he, but he grew up around

that.
And so yes, I do think origin,

either actual geography or what
you were raised around, I think

absolutely plays an impact on
those things.

I think some things naturally go
down, perhaps more easier.

Some flavours are just simply
more polarizing than others.

And I, I think about this as
well for classes because I like

to introduce people to different
styles of drinks.

But in general, when I introduce
people to, you know, sours might

be less some people's thing.
When you introduce people to

citrusy cocktails, it is way
less polarizing than an old

fashioned or a martini, in part
because the alcohol is so out

front or in some cases because
of the bitter ingredients.

So one of the things I do in
class that always blows me away

because it's so trace amount and
how many people claim to love

old fashions.
But so because aromatic bitters

can play such a prominent role
in a cocktail despite how much,

how little is added, I have
people in my class actually

build old fashioned
incrementally.

So I have them stir the sugar
and the whiskey with ice, pour

it into a glass.
I have them drink that chilled

sugar whiskey water cocktail, if
you will, OK.

And then I'll have them add a
dash or two of bitters at that

point in time.
Like see how that quote UN quote

salting of the cocktail changes
it.

It's amazing how many people at
that moment pull back because

it's suddenly now a little bit
spicier.

And then we will add the
traditional like, you know,

citrus peel garnish so they can
watch the drink change per these

multiple things.
But it's always interesting to

me how many people react to that
little 16th, 8th of a teaspoon

addition to the cocktail.
No, that's beautiful, that's

beautiful.
I never tried that.

Like it's, it's, it should be
it, it would be really, really

interesting for me and to, to,
to try that.

But what do you think in terms
of kind of like bridging between

this taste profile?
You know, like I always bring

the example of one of my dear
friends.

He is a rum drinker and I
brought him to A to a whiskey

fair and then I was setting at
the Gillan feedback stand with

some friends and, and I said he
was like, I'm not really into

whiskey.
You know, I just came here, let

you know just to be with you
when and I was lucky.

Let's try, let's try this one.
You know, like was like

something that was done in
Ramcast for a membership was

like that I think was like 21
year old or I can't remember.

I use that as a bridge because I
said like, you know, this will

not put him off because it's
like it's a Ram Casque kind of

thing.
So he will know, he will get

something familiar.
You know, same thing is that for

example, like I started drinking
Blvd. after years of drinking

Negronis, you know, and
Boulevardier I play a little bit

like the similar way that you
were saying like OK, like I go

for it, a bourbon based
Boulevardier, which is kind of

like sweeter and softer.
Then I try it with rye, then I

try with Scotch, then I try with
the alley Scotch.

And then I still, oh, maybe I
put like it just like 1/2 a

centilitre at the end, but the
base is bourbon, you know, and

that that is also like something
to play with, especially.

I mean, you don't want to have
a, you know, a Blvd. deal with

art bag that is kind of, you
know, break the bank kind of

thing.
But then maybe you can ask them

can can you put just like a
little dash of art bag at the

end just to give the smoky
flavor of it?

So what what role does that play
when you're talking to again,

like a regular kind of people,
not not educated bartender?

They have a very educated
palette.

Yeah, I do think that what you
currently drink is a great place

to start and proofing aside,
especially in the era of like

barrel proof spirits and what
not, you know, taking all that

Navy strengths that things and
putting that all aside, barrel

aging does have a
disproportionate impact on the

spirit.
And so, you know, one again,

reminding people how basic
people are, the number of people

who when I explained to them
that whiskey is white when it

comes out of the still, they're
like, oh, really?

Like, I mean, so for people to
understand that, you know, if

you barrel age any spirit for
long enough, it is going to be

more mellowed and whatnot.
So yes, someone is more of a

brown spirit person trying to
find other avenues for them of

like bridging with like flavors
or like style of cocktails.

I'm an old fashioned drinker.
OK, yeah.

To your point, let's try 1/4
ounce of this smoky fee Scotch

along with the other 1.75 ounces
of of bourbon or whatever, you

know, So I think playing with
those more bold flavors, you

know, or again like to again,
our friend Nicola, you know, I

got the old fashioned style
cocktail.

The Toronto is like a little
teaspoon of Fernette Branca,

like the Broncos really standing
in in place of a a traditional

dash of bitters.
So here's what I think is

important.
What I like about longer events

that I do every once in a while
is people get there and some are

just excited.
Tell me I'm I'm going to put

myself in your hands.
But when you give someone a

drink that they really end up
liking, or you can do something

well, or you spend time talking
with them, then there's a good

chance that for the second
drink, if there is one or the

second time they come back,
they'd be like, what else?

What else do you have back here?
And so I think, you know, the

more time that you show them
that you're enthusiastic about

these things, the more that you
they're willing to often put

themselves in your hands or in a
class.

What I like to do is add to
maximize the number of things

you can taste by minimizing how
much we drink.

So we'll do five half sized
drinks in a class.

It's about two cocktails, a
little bit more than two in an

hour and a half or so.
And what's nice about that is

people feel like it's less of a
risk to take a chance on

something.
I earn their trust by saying,

hey, you might not love all five
of these, but you're going to

love three out of the five of
them anyways.

I think that part of it is
really finding like, OK, yeah,

if you're a a white rum drinker,
let's try gin, let's try a

silver tequila, a Blanco
tequila.

These things are kind of like
the the places to start at that

point.
I think like listening to you is

also about and I speak to myself
first, you know, like it's like

to assume a little bit less now
when you know there is this

tendency, especially like in a
high paced barring environment.

For example, I was in a bar and
then it was like, OK, I like

Negronis, I like bitter and so
on.

And then there's like, oh, I
know what you do to you.

And then you know, he made me a
cocktail and then he had put

Brancamenta in it.
I don't like Brancamenta.

I love Hernet Branca, but I
don't like Branca Minta.

So he assumed, by the way
naturally, that I'm Italian

equal.
Anything Italian would be nice

for me, you know, like it's
like, oh, you're American, so

let me give you a bourbon.
It's like, you know, I hate

bourbon.
Maybe you know, I like I like

rum and I like to you know, like
if we went to level deeper and

now I'm without going too geeky,
you know, but it's like when to

your previous examples, like I
love old fashioned.

So what do you love about the
old fashion?

Is it like that this witness?
Is it the rum?

What is it you know exactly that
you like?

Is it, is it a maybe it's an
easy entry for you because maybe

you had it very sweet
historically.

So you think that that's how
it's supposed to be done, baby.

What about if I put a little
less sugar?

Would you still like it?
Or do you or would you like like

an old fashioned rum or an old
fashioned whiskey, for example?

Like the very first old
fashioned I had was with rum.

So automatically, for example,
my brain defaults and I did it

just now like defaults to rum.
So that's why I, I put the sugar

in, you know, because it was
very rum forward and it was

like, I can't remember if it was
like with Sakapa or whatever,

like diplomatic or whatever that
was that.

But, you know, like you, you
have this kind of like

assumptions and then you kind of
like dismantle all the other

things that could be precious
information to actually deliver

something outstanding to the
client.

So there's something that I try
to do and I Co opted from a book

that I read, but you know, it
says everybody could have their

their example, especially if
you're going to be taking

people's orders is in addition
to what do you typically drink?

Also, like, is there anything
that, and sometimes you can't

remember everything, but like
for the case of the Mafia guard

dog with cinnamon, for example,
you know, for a bartender to

say, is there anything you don't
like?

And then for them to go first to
say so that someone doesn't feel

like they're like, I'm not a big
fan of, of cinnamon, right.

And for people now that that
somebody else has already

volunteered, I don't love
everything in the world.

Like, Oh, yeah, hey, I, I, you
know, cilantro makes me crazy.

Oh, that's good to know because
we actually sometimes put

cilantro in our margaritas, you
know, like I'm.

So I think the more that you
can.

What do you typically drink and
is there anything you don't

like?
But also getting it out of the

way that you are don't love
everything.

I don't love mayonnaise.
OK, great.

Well, we don't put mayonnaise in
cocktails, but you know, So how

do you?
I agree.

Kind of clear that way right
there.

I agree.
I agree.

I mean, it, it's going back to
what we were saying before, like

putting people at ease now
because we think like we've got

a like a living encyclopedia
when we enter a bar now.

I mean, maybe that bartender has
no idea about, you know, I got

out of spirits, has no idea
about Scotch.

But he or she knows the basic
ones, like the big, the big

brands, but they don't know,
like the new one says, you know,

like, so then let's it goes both
ways now, from a consumer

perspective, from a bartender
perspective, and also like, you

know, like putting a little bit
of pride aside, you know, and

say, look, you know, like I'm
not a big fan of this category.

I'm not a big fan of like, I
don't know, I don't like smoky

things and flavors, you know?
I think my understanding is, you

know, you probably have a few
more people listening there

really of the industry.
And so like there are bars that

are meant in restaurants that
are like meant to be the corner

bars, you know, a place where
you get a beer and a shot or you

get a little, you know, a basic
pour of a Chardonnay wine or

whatever.
So one I do think people ask all

the time, like, why are there so
many bad drinks out there or why

are the drinks bad at my corner
bar?

And it's to your point, some
bartenders don't know these

things.
And so I think there's a little

bit of unfortunate obligation to
the consumer of like you don't

walk into, you know, your local
Tavern and say, Hey, do you guys

have any sushi available?
Right.

You know, I mean, like, so there
are there are times that you

need to read the room a bit.
Now there are I have been in

bars that are very unsavory, not
pretty places, right?

You can tell like they are
working the hell out of those

drinks, but paying attention,
you know, again, as a consumer,

I would just say how a bartender
handles the tools, if they're

handling tools at all, is a
great tell on things.

You know, if you see them shaken
in old fashioned, you know, I

would recommend getting a beer.
And so I think one of the things

is reading the word in terms of
like just paying attention to

where you are in the era of a
cocktail.

Just like, I think we can all
more come to terms with the idea

of like, oh, that one restaurant
up the street, their food is

crap.
So I'm not going to go there or

I'm OK with drink, but with with
having food that's not great.

It's like just because it's a
bar doesn't mean you were

promised a good cocktail.
And so I think paying attention

to those things, I think it's
important.

And then you of course have on
the other end of things, the

places that are my is, I think
we had in our preliminary

conversation places that are
trying too hard are putting too

many ingredients into cocktails.
And it's not necessarily bad,

but for the fact that you're
paying 20 US or 15 US or however

much whatever the hell the euro
is, I don't know anything but

anyways, but I think it's like
we had people.

There are plenty places who will
charge you great money for a

drink that is only OK.
And so I think like that's where

like is the consumer.
There is a bit of the

responsibility to the final
thing.

I'd say nice.
Again, going back to shout out

to my good friend Tim Wiggins.
He says that when he's at a

place and this necessitates you
to be in the mood to want to

have more than one drink.
But Tim says you should always

often try to order in a cocktail
bar proper, proper cocktail bar.

Your favorite 1st order a
Negroni order a daiquiri.

How did how did they do with
that Going back to the classics,

if they can execute that
classic, then they've earned

your permission, your trust to
try the speciality because I I I

go back to a one of the more
obscure agave distillates is

called a ricea.
It only achieved like

denomination of origin in 2019,
I think.

But I was in a bar and good
enough reputation from a

culinary standpoint.
And I saw they had a Ricea

cocktail and I looked at the
build.

I was like, oh, this is
interesting.

But there was also cold brew
coffee in it.

And I like to say that's the
story of when I paid $17.00 for

a, a cold brew, you know,
because the cold brew just came

in and just railroaded the
cocktail.

And that can happen often right
now when people are playing with

wide arrays of ingredients.
Absolutely, absolutely.

Like the first thing.
Like I totally agree with like

for example, for me as an
Italian, you know, the first

thing, if I enter a pizzeria, I
order a Margarita, not the

Margarita, but a Margarita.
And then if I go to an ice cream

shop like a Gila Tiria, you
know, like I, I always go for

chocolate and you know, I
usually have chocolate and

pistachio.
So usually those are the one

like, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm
trained, you know, I had them

since I was like 4, always these
two flavors.

So I'm going to try the first
flavors and then I'm going to

judge, you know, what you kind
of like, like, and the and the

other thing is that it's also
about what, when you enter the

place is also about
understanding your surrounding

what you were saying all like
coming from beer.

I know that in a majority of
places, beer is actually not

good quality.
The lines are dirty, you know,

they they haven't got my
maintenance and so on.

So my first question is, I look
around and if I don't see beers

on draft, then I I ordered beer
and bottle or then I asked them

like which one do you?
If I go into kind of like a

dodgy 1, then I'm like, what do
you sell more?

You know, which one is the one
with biggest throughput.

So it's kind of like cleaning
itself up, but people don't read

that thing, you know, like
sometimes they may go to a

typical pub or drink a spritz,
which you know, it's going to be

like with very bad Prosecco,
super cheap, like the soda is

going to be like with no
bubbles, you know, like, why

don't you look around kind of
thing.

And that goes back to the point
that the last point.

And that is about like a
segmentation, for example, that

I'm, that I've created now that
it's, it goes like left to right

on the level of skills of the
bar.

Because in the majority of bars,
basic restaurants, let's say, I

mean, in, in the US, you are
much more ahead because in

restaurant you usually get
cocktails.

So there is usually a bartender.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in

Europe, you know, like a lot of
these places where you go, I

don't know, if you take an
Italian pizzeria, they will have

spritz.
But guess who's making the

spritz?
The waiter.

You know, there's no bartender
because there's no job called

bartender in a pizzeria, in a
regular one now, not in an

elevated one with a nice bar and
so on.

So you know, it goes back to the
first point, like how do we

scale these things?
This culture of cocktail is to

really understand and teaching
consumer to say, OK, actually

read the read the venue.
Is there a proper bartender?

Is there a bar?
How many bottles do they have

that have 3 bottles or do they
have like a nice range?

Are they kind of like rusty and
you know, like sticky corks, you

know, there because the last
time they opened that Campari

was like a month and a half ago.
Or what is it?

You know, like and, and to learn
that because a lot of that goes

back to what we were saying
before.

Is that bad experiences?
No, you know, like I tried to

have a Margarita in that venue.
It was shit.

I hate cocktails.
I did hold back to beer, you

know, but probably you should
have never ordered that

Margarita.
You know, you should have stick

to beer because it you were in a
the German Stube and that's what

they do, you know, like they
don't do Margarita.

They try to say yes to some
people that wanted to have a

Margarita, but they don't invest
into a bartender, into a bar

program, into good tequila and
ingredients and and so on.

Yeah, So two things based on
what you said, One, yeah, I

think that and this can exist in
a lot of fields.

And this is not meant in a
demeaning way because there's a

culinary reference here too.
But like the word bartender can

mean many things, right?
So like I meet people all the

time and this is not me holding
my head up high, but like they

they did, they did work behind
the bar, but what they were

turning out.
So even if we have someone who

has holds the title bartender
and I have to find this out when

I work with bars and restaurants
is how do you go in there not

step on toes while working to
show people like how drinks are

properly made?
So there are plenty people who

will make drinks.
Are they making them?

Well, as a question.
So I think this comes back to

something that is interesting
for both the public and

industry.
So my father actually teaches

people how to play golf for a
living.

He also had a career pivot
middle of his life.

But one of his statements that I
have Co opted is he says about

golf, people misunderstand where
good golf shots come from.

What does it take to produce a
good golf shot?

And I believe the same thing is
true as people misunderstand

where good drinks come from.
And I think that there's no one

answer in our market because
people have all different sets

of tastes.
But I think right now, too much

value is assigned to brand.
They're so fixated on if I get

Tito's that I'm guaranteed to
have an amazing lemon drop or

martini.
And yet there is no attention to

the other ingredients or there
is no attention to the technique

that's used to produce that.
And so I think that for bars, as

they stock better and better
ingredients, the question is, is

like, do they understand where
good flavor and good texture and

temperature and drinks comes
from?

And for the layperson as well,
and this is asking a lot.

So I'm not for all you out
there.

You don't have to know all this
right now.

But I think that's that's the
challenge is once we kind of

strip away a lot of the
complexity, it's like, what are

the things that yields to this
guy?

Kevin Peterson, I'm going to,
Yeah.

Beyond the ingredients and the
technique, he's like the meta

ingredients in cocktails are
temperature, texture and

dilution.
And how do we think about, like,

engineering these things?
And you can do that through all

sorts of methods of preparation.
And it doesn't need to be

complex.
But anyways, now I'm just, I

think I'm circling now.
But these things are important

to pay attention to, to
ultimately ensure that like a

delicious drink lands in front
of somebody.

Because it's not hard, but if
you disrespect those rules, the

drink will go sideways
immediately.

Absolutely, absolutely.
Oh, fantastic, fantastic.

So let's wrap it up here because
I'm aware of your time like

we've been.
We went a little bit over, but

let us know how can people find
you and you know, like

especially like the fellow
American listeners of the

podcast, where can they find you
and book you and reach out to

you and meet you?
It's all should be decoding

cocktails, decoding
cocktails.com and same on the

Instagram platform.
It's decoding cocktails podcast,

I believe technically when you
search for it and on my show,

it's really more when you are a
great interviewer.

So props to you.
But yeah, like I I try to ask

myself like, what is it that I'm
trying to learn?

And the awesome part is, it's
like a recent episode was like.

Spirits have have been an
incredible ride and it's cool to

see people taking so much pride
in these things right now.

And I feel like the word mixer
has such a bad connotation.

It's the crap that you use when
you don't take the time that I

recently interviewed a craft
mixer company out of Charleston,

SC.
And these are people who have

backgrounds at the Culinary
Institute of America and have

worked in all sorts of
restaurants and ran a high end

cocktail bar.
And they're attempting to now

basically ask what would happen
if we brought the same amount of

attention to a mixer that we do
to a spirit.

And what happens if we were as
excited to show someone the

mixer as we were our our bottle.
So, so that's what I, I like

about mine is it's cool that it,
it's a continued learning

opportunity for me.
So, but yeah, if you had

questions about classes or
wanting to work with your

establishment, I'm happy to, I'm
always happy to talk to people.

But this is you're, you're an
easy person to talk to.

So thank you for that.
Fantastic.

Thanks a lot, Chris, and have a
good day.

Thanks.
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