Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
You are a business owner who wants to prioritize people and planet over profits (without sacrificing success). That can feel lonely—but you are not alone! Join host Becky Mollenkamp for in-depth conversations with experts and other founders about how to build a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. It’s time to change the business landscape for good!
Welcome to Feminist Founders, a podcast that explores how to create a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. I'm your host, coach, and journalist Becky Mollenkamp. Feminist Founders is a listener-funded podcast. Your contributions enable me to continue bringing you these important conversations without corporate advertising. To support the mission, head to feministfounderspodcast.com and sign up for a paid subscription. The link is in the show notes. Now on to today's show.
Becky Mollenkamp: Hello, hello, hello, greetings from summer, the end of summer! Thankfully, my kiddo is back in school. I don't know if yours are or if you have kids, but that usually is the thing that tells me summer's drawing to an end, even though I know it technically doesn't end for another week or two. I am back with another fun bonus summer episode, this time with Sophia Apostol, who hosts the Fat Joy podcast and Fat Joy on Substack. I will link to those in the show notes. We're having an amazing conversation about visibility and the ways that our relationship with our body affects that, and that's such a real issue for so many of us. We recorded this episode a long time ago and frankly, I got really busy and didn't get around to editing it until now. So I'm so excited to share this finally, at long last, so that you can hopefully learn and enjoy what Sophia has to share. Definitely check out her podcast and her Substack. They are fantastic. You can also find her on Instagram at Fatjoy.life. Again, I will link to all of that in the show notes. Big thank you to Sophia for doing this, for being available, and for educating everyone. I hope you enjoy. And the new episodes, Season 3 of this podcast, are just around the corner, I promise. I can't wait to start releasing them in the next couple of weeks. I think there's maybe one or two more weeks before you will be hearing them. So stay tuned and thanks for listening to this.
Becky Mollenkamp: I want to talk about visibility and body appearance and how that affects people's willingness to be visible, safety, comfort, and being visible because I think that's something that comes up a lot for me with my clients. Visibility is a big important thing for business owners. Yeah, so what do you hear from people about that?
Sophia Apostol: Yeah, it's so interesting. I hear this a lot from people of all sizes, actually, especially in the leadership coaching that I do. This shows up a lot. I would say probably 80% of my clients are women or women-identifying, and I have a high percentage of people who are BIPOC as well, so people living with marginalized identities and also in marginalized bodies. This shows up in their work, whether they're entrepreneurs or whether they're leaders within their own organizations. Where we often end up going, if I just jump to the root of it, is this feeling of safety and like where visibility in their lives has, they’ve had experiences where when they were visible, there was unsafety involved. And sometimes they're like, no, hang on, that's not the right word. And then we talk about it a bit more and they're like, oh, it is safety, but there's a real resistance to this feeling. I'm curious if you experience this too with people you talk to where that's a big word to use for people, like, hey, are you not being visible because you feel unsafe? They're like, no, no, no, it's totally fine. And then we go a little deeper and they're like, oh, that safety means…
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, because I think so often we're conditioned to think of safety around our physical bodies, and there are very real examples of what you're talking about in physical safety as well, for sure, when it comes to visibility, especially with people with some of the most marginalized identities. And I think for most of us, we don't think about emotional, psychological safety until we talk with somebody like us, right, who helps people understand a bit more about that. And then I think people, and especially the more people touch on where this is all coming from—because it's almost always early wounding in our life, this early trauma, and that's what's getting triggered—but we don't always make those leaps mentally from like this thing that's happening right now to oh that early wounding. And I think for most people, when they make some of those mental connections, that for me is where people will start to be like, oh, this is like my brain trying to keep me safe, even if it doesn't make logical sense, which is why I think so often we have, like, people will be like, well just get over it, right? I mean, in essence, I think so much of the advice that's out there is just get over it, right? Do it scared, do it anyway, you'll be fine, like just, you know, push through, and that's why I think so much of that advice is not helpful and is in fact damaging. And I wonder what you think about that because I'm sure you see that too in people who have been harmed by that kind of advice and taking that advice.
Sophia Apostol: Right? It's very interesting. I literally just got off a client call with someone who that advice would probably work for because she is a risk-taker. And so for her, the kind of adrenaline of an excitement and thrill of just doing it scared works for her, but that's very specifically her personality. I would say, um, and I don't know if you do or have done anything with Enneagram, I'm a big Enneagram fan and like the nine different types. She's, I think she's a type 8, she's gonna do the assessment, um, which is like that risk-taker personality, but that's just one of the eight types. So for most of the other types, except maybe a type 3, that kind of risk push through, do it scared, doesn't actually work for them and could cause more harm because it just creates so much anxiety and so much stress that even when they, if they can take the step, like do the thing, they're so like, oh like clenched in, tense, and nervous about it that it's never gonna go the way they want it to, which then reinforces the whole, see this is why I shouldn't have done it anyway. I'm never going to be visible, and it reinforces that message of visibility equals unsafety. So I feel like this is, yeah, it's got to be really individual for the person and their own lived experience.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, I'm just immediately thinking of Enneagram 9s, and I don't know a ton about Enneagram…
Sophia Apostol: Are you, are you a 9?
Becky Mollenkamp: No, I'm actually a 6, which would also be the wrong person for this because 6s are all about security and safety. And so you're telling me just to go against my safety would be like, that doesn't work and I will just like double down, but I'm thinking about a 9 who is a people pleaser kind of a person. They're going to hear that advice and be like, well, I want to make that person feel good, so they're probably gonna do it and then cause themselves more harm. I was just thinking of a couple of them right away. I mean, again, not a big Enneagram person.
Sophia Apostol: My best friend is a 9 and that's the same thing. This is why I actually really like Enneagram—not this is gonna be about all Enneagram, but what I like about Enneagram is that it really gets to the root of what motivates us and what motivates us is often what is the opposite of our fear, our core fear, and so it gets really quickly right to what drives our behavior, our thoughts, our mindsets, and our actions. And that's why I use it with a lot of my clients because I'm like, let's figure it, let's just like have that named, and then we can like work on what to do from there. But yeah, a 9, telling a 9 to just do it, you're right, they probably would. And also 2 who's like the caregiver classic people pleaser type as well, they would be, it would probably make them harmed more and that's, you know, we really don't want to do that.
Becky Mollenkamp: I know this is not really what we're talking about here, but I think other people will be as fascinated as I am, because boy, my brain's turning, and I've heard this before, but it's reigniting something around like it's the opposite of your core fear and so as a 6, I really love security and safety and that is interesting because I would think, I don't think of my core fear as chaos, but it is certainly my core wounding. And I think that makes a lot of sense. So very interesting.
Sophia Apostol: I think, for people to think about that, what is, yeah, uh just the last thing on Enneagram, I'll just share if people want to just take a free test, this is what I recommend to people I work with. Go to truity.com/enneagram. I think in Truity’s T R U I T Y. You can take a free online assessment. They have a really great report you can buy for 20 bucks if you want to. I'm not affiliated. I do want to become Enneagram trained. I want to be trained because I use it a lot. I think I'd love to go deeper, but I'm not affiliated. There's no affiliate link, nothing like that, and then there's so much free information online about Enneagram that you can figure out what your top kind of types are, uh, and then learn lots more if, if anyone listening is interested.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, and I think whatever tool, I think that's super interesting, whatever tool helps you. Because I know like I use because I'm, I work a lot with business owners. I use a lot with CliftonStrengths, formerly StrengthsFinder.
Sophia Apostol: Oh, I love StrengthsFinder.
Becky Mollenkamp: Ultimately I just think whatever tool or tools, a combination, I personally just like knowing all those pieces to help me paint the quilt that makes up who I am, so that I understand the way I see the world and what caused me to see the world this way. Because with that understanding—and I wonder, I think this is where your work sounds like it's at—is with that understanding, then we can see what's happening in the current moment. In this grander scale for what it really is about, because in the moment it feels like, no, I can't go on stage because everyone's gonna see me and think, oh, she's too fat or, you know, whatever the thing is, right? And they're all gonna like hate me or they won't take me seriously or I'll be embarrassed, and we think it's just about that moment, but when we can understand this bigger fabric of who we are, then we can understand that it's not entirely about this moment and it's informed by all this other stuff, and I feel like that is really the foundational piece of starting to be able to make change. When you can get your head out of the current moment and into what's this really about and how do I tend to that wounding that's giving me that feeling now. Is that like what your work, the core of your work probably is?
Sophia Apostol: Yeah, 100% because I was just thinking like the categories of what shows up for people is definitely body image. Like I will be physically seen. Oh my God, so body, impostor syndrome. Everyone's gonna find out I'm a fraud. Plain old confidence, which is a bit of a different flavor than impostor syndrome, confidence to like, like belief in self, not necessarily only tied to like intellectual capacity. So there's like all these themes that show up for people with the voice of their inner critic in their head, and then that creates this like physiological reaction of often fight, flight, freeze, which of course shuts down the part of our brain that is like the higher level of functioning. It's called the prefrontal cortex. And that kind of just shuts down because it's like I'm in my saber-toothed tiger. I must like do something, not be thoughtful. And so what the work is, is to notice, we start by noticing when that happens. Who's around? What's going on? When people start, I have them often do these like we call them like field experiments. So I'll be like, OK, so get your little notebook, you are like a field scientist and like as you go through your day, note down when you start to feel that feeling and usually at this point we've already talked about like, what is the feeling that emerges in these moments. For some people, it's like hot flash that goes up through their body. For other people, it's like a cold pit in the middle and it causes them to like sink in, like retract into their body. For other people, it's like a very buzzy, disassociated feeling. So for different people this shows up in their bodies in different ways. So the first thing is to notice what is happening in your body when you are in these moments of being visible and feeling unsafety. So then once we like name that we get really clear on it, and sometimes we actually literally give it a name like, OK, what, what would you call this feeling? Oh my God, I would call this like, you know, school naked dream or whatever, right? You know that dream we have when we're walking through the school halls naked, like that deep embarrassment, or if it's an impostor syndrome, it might be like, oh my God, Mrs. McClellan, who was like the 3rd grade teacher who like shamed them for not knowing something. So you give it a name, which really serves as a bit of a metaphor, so you can like think about it and immediately connect to that feeling. And notice it. Then you do this field experiment where you like, note for a week or a couple of days. You're actually—most people are very shocked at how often this feeling shows up, and you literally almost like notice, like who's around, what's going on, what happened right before, and then patterns start to emerge. Oh, this always happens when I'm tired and I'm in a meeting with like a high-stakes meeting with people whose opinions really matter to me. Oh my gosh, this always really happens when I— I literally had a client yesterday we were talking about this, where she's like, because she had just done the field experiment. She's like, oh, do you know what my takeaway is? I'm like, what is it? She goes, I need to eat more burritos, and I'm like, I love it because for her, she gets so in her head, so in it, so busy, leading and stressing leading up to this meeting that, you know, she has to be very visible and she leads it in front of like senior leaders. And she forgets to eat. So then she shows up at like 2 p.m. She hasn't eaten all day and so it's like, oh, I should stop at noon and eat a burrito, and that will probably take care of a big chunk of the unsafety I feel because by not eating, she's like her body is not resourced to handle the adrenaline rush that comes with leading this meeting, the anxiety that comes with leading this meeting. So that's like a step one and then we'll work on like decreasing the anxiety through different practices, but like you start to notice what happens. Then, once you have some patterns emerging, then we start to talk about, OK, so let's pick a small thing that we can practice. Be visible with. So let's say you are about to go on stage, or lead a group, or take brand photos or, you know, any of the things that business owners, entrepreneurs, leaders do. And what's one thing that we can do to recognize that feeling before it happens, interrupt it, soften it? Maybe it never goes away, because sometimes this stuff never goes away, Becky, which is like, I really wish it would, but I've been doing this work for a decade, and like, so someone has figured this out, please tell me, but even all these things I work on, what happens is, rather than it disappearing, I recover faster. So a lot of times it's about how do we recover back to ourselves, rather than stay in that activated triggered state, and that's, that's the goal. Because I'm constantly surprised by new situations that show up. And I'm like, oh, my people pleaser is still there getting in the way of me being visible right now. Oh, my impostor syndrome is showing up. I thought I dealt with that. Nope, this new situation, this new person activated it again. So sometimes it lives within us because it's just a part of who we are, and our body and our mind want to keep us safe.
Becky Mollenkamp: I just want to say I really love the part about experimenting, because I talk all the time with people about like bringing this sort of scientist feeling to what you're doing, because again, that sort of removes the personalization of it, right? It makes it more like about something outside of you and less about a personal failure if it doesn't go right. It's like, oh, that was just an experiment and that's OK. And so I love how all of those things contribute to the safety to then be able to face. And we've been having some tech glitches as a little sneak peek or FYI behind the scenes. And so we're gonna probably wrap things up because we don't want to have any more tech glitches and miss anything, but I don't think we introduced ourselves. I mean, we probably should have done that because these are fun. I love these conversations, and I could talk about them all day, but why don’t you do a quick introduction?
Sophia Apostol: So I'm Sophia Apostol. I go by she/her. I'm a professional certified coach, my work for the last 5 years has been as a full-time coach. I do leadership development work, fat liberation work, and I'm also a creative writing coach and facilitator. So, even though those sound quite different, I find the conversations are so rooted in the same thing, which is, how do I live the kind of life that I can feel really great about, proud of, feel like I contribute to this world in a positive way, and how do I do it in a way that feels safe? Talking about safety and visibility, right? So that is what I do. I have a podcast called Fat Joy and I have a Substack also called Fat Joy. Yeah, that's me. Oh, and I’m in Canada, I guess I should say. Shout out to the Canadians listening.
Becky Mollenkamp: And so I am Becky Mollenkamp and I'm an accountability coach and my background is journalism, so like you, storytelling, and I think storytelling and coaching go so hand in hand because we want to help people tell their stories. We need to ask a lot of questions. We need to be able to use a lot of metaphors to help people visualize and see things. So I think it's interesting that your background that you also do writing and my background was in writing because I do think it makes a lot of sense for those to go together. And how did you come to the name Fat Joy?
Sophia Apostol: Oh, I tried a whole bunch of names. And like I, I actually thought, well, here’s the story. I’ve been filled with rage about how fat bodies are treated in this world my whole life. And I was like, I finally hit a point again talking about visibility. I had a whole visibility journey, and I also journaled about it. A whole journey around, OK, I hate this. I want to do something about it, but oh, I felt really scary to think about doing it in a way that would be very public. And so for probably about a year, I kind of thought about it, hummed and hawed about it, and then ended up on actually a team retreat with the writing studio I work for, where Team Retreat really is like we hang out, we do lots of reflection and lots of our own individual work too. We were playing with an exercise that was rooted in the idea of pseudonyms, the idea of what would you write if it wasn't your name attached to it. And there was something about that permission then that prompt where it literally just dropped into my whole body. I was like, I'm gonna create a podcast of privileges, fat body stories, and it was like boom. And my pseudonym was gonna be Ursula Wilde, and I was like, that’s what I'm gonna do. And then the next moment, the next heartbeat, I was like, oh, I could do that with my name, and it just came together. So that was like the impetus for doing it, and then I started to look at if I'm filled with anger, what I really want to do is talk about the challenge of living in a fat body, but also how do we stay connected to joy? How do we choose joy? How do we choose love in a world that really actively hates fat bodies? And so I wanted to have like joy, happiness, something in there, and so I looked up a whole bunch of names. Some were taken, like I was actually really interested in the word in happy fat, but that's actually a book by Sofie Hagan, who's a brilliant comedian and writer, and I was like, OK, I'm not gonna do that. And so then I was like, oh, what about Fat Joy? It's perfect. It’s 3 letters, 3 letters, it's beautifully like the aesthetic of it is lovely. And I typed it into Google, not a single hit. Google popped up with “Do you mean Fat Joe?” I was like, who's Fat Joe? No, I don't mean Fat Joe. And I typed it in again, this time in quotation marks. “Do you mean Fat Joe?” I'm like, stop it! Where is the Fat Joy? And there was nothing. There was literally—I could find nothing with Fat Joy, and I was like, all right, well this obviously has to be it because fuck that and fuck Fat Joe, even though I now know Fat Joe is actually pretty awesome in a lot of ways, but I was just, it was like, so it actually took like 6 months of active SEO work and posting to now when you type in Fat Joy, it shows up. But that’s—I mean, I think that for me is—God, I couldn’t even find it in Google, that phrase, that’s messed up.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, I mean, it really speaks to the anti-fat bias everywhere, and what we're, you know, and what we're talking about, which is these fears around visibility because of the body that we're in, like I even like to think of it as the vessel, right, that I am experiencing life through. And like, the more you can, I find for me anyway, because my body has changed a lot as bodies do. I know, especially after having a child, and my body is much larger than it used to be. And you know, I think for me, the more that I'm able to kind of, at least the phase of my journey where I'm at, which is like, I'm kind of in the body neutrality phase, I think, because I sort of think of like Fat Joy being like the end of the spectrum where it’s like just starting with sort of body neutrality and then moving into like fat neutrality and then moving into like fat acceptance, and then I feel like Fat Joy is at the end of that. And I'm still more on the beginning part of that journey, but for me at that stage, like the more I can just think of my body as like this vessel and remember that the me that I am has not changed. And that was, I know it sounds so silly, but there was, I was reading something and I can't remember at the moment. It might have been “What We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Fat.” It's on my shelf over here. And I think it was reading that that there was some awareness that finally came through for me of like, oh, the me inside of this vessel has not changed. When I don't have any mirrors around me and I can't see myself on Zoom or whatever, I forget what I look like, and I feel exactly the same as I always have. And so I think that for me is part of that journey, but I'm curious—and I know we're gonna wrap up, but I am curious about that journey that I just outlined. Does that feel, in your experience, kind of the path that people take?
Sophia Apostol: Absolutely, yeah, I find a lot of people are drawn to the idea of body positivity first and then they pretty quickly see that body positivity has just been so co-opted by mostly thin white women, so that doesn't feel like it totally resonates for them. So yeah, then they often move to this idea—they find the concept somehow—of body neutrality, and it's like, oh, well, that's great. If I can move from being—and people use really strong words—hatred, disgust, frustration, embarrassment, mortification of my body. If I could just feel a little more—accepting is a hard word—but like a little more, like, less actively hating it or wanting to distance from it, then that would give me some peace. So often it’s that search for peace, to not always—and at this point, oftentimes people also start to be aware of diet culture and like the systemic factors that have been put in place since our births to have us feel certain ways about our bodies. That layer comes in and they're like, well, I don't want to feel like this because advertising tells me to or some pharma company thinks that they want to profit off of my anger at my own body. So there starts to be a little bit of like a systemic level awareness that comes in at this point. And then, yeah, it does then start to move when that systemic level comes in. I find that's when people often move into acceptance because we start to realize that bodies are supposed to change. There is absolutely no proven way to actually intentionally lose weight and sustain it. There isn't. Diets fail 95 to 98% of the time, even with gastric bypass, even with Ozempic, which everyone's raving about right now. Within 3 to 5 years of gastric bypass, 60% of people gain back all the weight they've lost plus some, and with Ozempic, the moment you stop taking it, which you can't— I mean, you have to take it for the rest of your life, and it's at least $1,300 to $1,500 a month. That is bananas to me, right?
Becky Mollenkamp: Not to mention, we don't yet have studies to prove what that does over somebody taking it for that amount of time. I mean, it hasn't been around that long.
Sophia Apostol: We don't.
Becky Mollenkamp: I'm glad you brought up Ozempic and Wegovy and all of those because I am—and I know we're supposed to wrap up, but I just—this is all so interesting to me.
Sophia Apostol: It’s so good stuff. I know, I’m with you.
Becky Mollenkamp: I feel like we had gone through this period for a while where even though, yes, so much of it had been co-opted by skinny white ladies, I do feel like there was—some of it was starting to permeate a bit, like it was starting to get through a bit to society like we made some gains. And now here come these drugs that I feel like are just like—I feel this pendulum swinging all the way back to the Kate Moss time of life, and you know, the low-rise jeans and the like, it scares the crap out of me because I feel like all those gains. I’m worried that they’re all going away. Are you feeling that?
Sophia Apostol: Yes, in my darkest moments. And then I think, oh, this is just the pattern of oppressive systems, and we're seeing this at play in all parts of our world right now, which is that when they know they're being challenged and voices are rising against them, they're going to double down and fight like hell. So in my more hopeful moments, I think, oh, they know they're getting ousted. Yes, and I get very excited by that. So I swing back and forth between total despair for our world and extreme hope, and it's conversations like this where I’m like, extreme hope is gonna win, we're gonna do it. And, you know, Oprah coming out recently about her admission of using Ozempic, which of course is now being distributed by WW or Weight Watchers, which she owns. And then I'm like, oh, extreme despair. Will it ever change? So I swing back and forth. I'm human, and I think what I want to say is, and I struggle with this like everyone, but I feel like I have a lot of privilege, and I want to use it to be on the side of naming the culture as an oppressive system. And I want to be on the side of ripping it to the ground, and the way I can do that as like a professional coach, someone who likes to talk. I’m a believer of stories, is I can do a podcast. I can create a Substack. I can run workshops and coach clients. So I feel like I'm just going to be in the trenches doing as much as I can. And that has to count for something, and I believe it does. I really do. I hear from people all the time. I think about Aubrey Gordon. I mean, her movie Your Fat Friend, they’re going for an Oscar run, like, come on, that's amazing. I’ve interviewed Aubrey. I'm actually gonna be interviewing Jeannie Finlay next week actually, who's the director of her movies also a fat woman like it's—it, we are going mainstream. One of the biggest podcasts, We Can Do Hard Things, which is like Glennon Doyle, her wife Abby Wambach and her sister Amanda, like they had Aubrey on recently. I have been—I can’t even tell you I’ve been waiting years for that episode. I’m like, OK, that is a podcast that gets millions and millions and millions of downloads every episode, and Aubrey Gordon is on there talking about fatness in her fat body and they’re saying the word fat. So that for me is like, this is the hope. These are the hopeful moments and I cling to those because I have to Becky, because otherwise what I just give up. I can’t, I can’t do it. I can’t do it.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, you definitely personify Fat Joy. I mean, you're sitting here talking about these things and there’s such joy in it and I love that and I need that hope too, and I absolutely agree with you. I mean, I was giving you all the props when you’re talking about the pendulum kind of like swinging and then that is part of dismantling oppressive systems and we see it all the time. Every time there's been movement towards, you know, civil rights, there's like this backlash that happens and you get pushed back some, but then, you know, as MLK Junior said, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. That quote is my version of hope because it takes time and yes, every time there’s progress, there’s a fight back against it. You have to keep soldiering on to say, you know, we will win out. Righteousness wins in the end, and these are righteous issues. The same cause, you know, my work is around dismantling capitalism and the way we run businesses, right? Like thinking, rethinking all these norms that have us running ourselves to the ground, hating ourselves, doubting ourselves, all of these things in our businesses. And yeah, I see the same thing where you think we've made progress and then oh, here's another setback, but I know that ultimately it will win out, and your work is a part of that too, because so many—I mean, fat women own businesses.
Sophia Apostol: Well, fat women, fat people are 60% of the population, you know. 60% of the population is plus size, so yeah, 60% of your entrepreneurs are.
Becky Mollenkamp: And we own businesses and we’re parents and all the things, but, you know, in my work in running a business, I see how these issues can hold us back. And, you know, my favorite phrase is have the confidence of a mediocre white man. Mediocre white men in general aren’t thinking about these same issues the way we are now. To bring, you know, empathy and humility and all that to it. Yes, men also experience being fat, and they also experience shame around that and those things. But we live in a world where it’s much more problematic as a woman because of, you know, the male gaze. I happen to experience my body changing for a second time into, you know, a larger body after giving birth and I did that later in life because I was an old mom, geriatric as they call us.
Sophia Apostol: Oh gosh, what a horrible term. That needs to be changed.
Becky Mollenkamp: I know, you're a geriatric mom at 35, like, come on, it's so far from geriatric, but anyway, I was 40 and I was going through simultaneously my body changing and reaching that phase of my life as a woman where we are no longer worthy of the male view, right? I've aged out of it, and that was such a blessing because those things coming together at the same time, it really gave me that part of like, oh this isn't, this was never about me. Like this is about bullshit. It's about men and, you know, their pleasure and like I don't want any part of that anyway, and now I'm not even—I can't even if I want to. I'm too old. I just, I don't get to qualify for that anymore. So I—there’s such freedom in being like, so fuck it, I'm just gonna love all of my body.
Sophia Apostol: This is why I feel, I say this so often, actually this comes up when I talk to the podcast guests all the time when we're at the end, we're always like, and it's worth it to do this work because the freedom that comes when you move from body neutrality to body acceptance to actual joy. I mean, it is that freedom of not giving a shit. It's like the best thing ever, not caring that you are invisibilized because you're not, you know, 22 and a size 2, you know, like it really, it's so worth it and I’m so with you on that. The freedom of it is incredible.
Becky Mollenkamp: Freedom and that ultimately is what I think is liberation. I love that word too, like liberating ourselves from all of this stuff that is oppressive and holding us down. And I love that, and I think that's a great place for us to end because I think this conversation to me was really wonderful in helping me start to embrace more joy.
Sophia Apostol: Yay!
Becky Mollenkamp: Thank you, Sophia.
Thank you for listening to this episode of Feminist Founders podcast. If you like what you heard and want to learn more, or if you'd like to support the work that I'm doing with the show, please visit feministfounderspodcast.com. There you can find out about becoming a paid subscriber for as little as the price of one cup of coffee a month, which will directly support my work. You can also find the show notes and find the bookshop.org website where you can order any of the books mentioned in this or any episode, which will also support the work I'm doing. The link to all of that is in the show notes. Thanks again, and I can't wait for our next episode.