4 Founders Have a Chat - In The Thick of It Podcast (LIVE Stream)

Recently we celebrated 1 year of In The Thick of It podcast with a live-streamed episode featuring past guests, including:

👤 Justin Smith, Founder of Ebenezer Consulting
👤 Roy Keely, Founder of FirmStudio
👤 Taylor Brooks, Founder of Simple

We hope you enjoy our banter and discussion around business, leadership, and professional development. It was a great time sharing the space with fellow founders—stay tuned for more panel episodes like this one!

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🎧 Listen to the show & view featured guests: https://founderstory.transistor.fm/

📧 If you or a founder you know would like to be a guest on In The Thick of It, email us at [e-mail]

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Creators & Guests

Host

Scott Hollrah

Founder & CEO of Venn Technology

Guest

Justin Smith

Founder & CEO, Redaway Medical Waste Solutions

Guest

Roy Keely

Founder, Firm Studio

Guest

Taylor Brooks

Founder & CEO, Simple

What is In The Thick of It?

Join Scott Hollrah, founder of Venn Technology, as he takes you "In the Thick of It" with the real stories of founders who are actively navigating the challenges and triumphs of running their businesses. This podcast goes beyond the typical entrepreneurial success stories and delves into the messy, gritty, and sometimes chaotic world of building and growing a company. Get inspired, learn from the experiences of others, and gain insights into what it truly means to be in the thick of the entrepreneurial journey.

All right.

I'm always excited for every episode,
but today is like something

super, super special.

Since we started the podcast,

I've had this idea
of doing a live roundtable

and today to celebrate
our first anniversary, we are doing it.

So, joining me on the panel
today is Taylor Brooks,

founder of Simple, based in Austin, Texas.

Roy Kelly, founder of FirmStudio
in—you're not Atlanta.

You're in the suburbs.
I claim Alpharetta up.

There we go.

Georgia and Justin Smith, fellow Dallas—Dallasite.

And, we'll we'll catch up on on what he's
doing these days in just a minute.

actually, why don't we lead in with that?

So, Justin,
you've had a pretty significant,

thing happen
since your episode aired last year.

Why don't you.
Why don't you walk us through that?

Yeah, sure.

So, actually,

when we were, doing the podcast
last year,

I was actually
in the middle of transacting.

So there's some things I couldn't say
that wanted to say, maybe alluded to.

And, we ended up exiting,
about a year and a half ago.

So just really, really
great opportunity was cause

I went back and listen to the podcast

and it was kind of like a history,
a story of of Red away.

So right away was a medical wise company,
that we started essentially 2014

and we took it all the way to exit,
very successful exit.

We're pleased at how it went.

pleased with a partner.

And after essentially a year's

consulting agreement,
they were really pleased with the outcome.

So every former employees in a good spot.

So I don't think it could have gone
better.

But, since then, we'll just say that
it created some optionality in life.

And now trying to figure out
what I want to do when I grow up.

So, we can dive into that later,
but quite a, quite a few things

spinning as entrepreneurs tend to do.

So yeah. all right Taylor

starting us off

like what is the biggest thing
that's happened in the last year?

The biggest challenge, biggest lesson
learned, biggest significant event.

Like what's been what's been that big,
big thing for you for the last year?

I kind of racked my brain on this
because in some ways,

I tried to smooth out all of the,

you know, variations that an entrepreneur
or a business owner would have,

and just try to have a stable,
calm company.

the biggest thing actually, for us
is a new a new customer

that we're going to onboard
probably next March.

I looked at when our first contact
was in person,

meeting with this, customer

and it was, like March of 2011.

So we.

That's a long sales cycle.

Is a very long sales cycle.

So we went and met with them, my CFO
and I, at the time,

it was it was actually his first
tour of duty was simple.

So he actually left, went to run
another company as a CFO, came back

and then started reengaging,
this potential customer.

And then, yeah, ten years later,
they've they're in a new buying cycle.

They're,
they're where the right fit for him.

And, that's big for us.

not because it's, necessarily
a big account

or has any sort of big
financial implications.

It's just that we are a meat and potatoes,

you know, focus on the fundamentals.

And over time that will just pay off.

So it was a great lesson,
I think, for our team to see that

just consistency of quality

and of relationship can,
can lead to the outcomes that we want.

And they didn't choose us in the last
buying cycle, but they did on this one.

So that was
that was just a huge win for us.

to show that our,

you know, marketing
strategy or sales strategy,

which is just a focus on the long term,
actually pays off in the long term.

And then, Scott, can I provide
the first disagreement of the podcast?

Yeah, go for it. Really.

I actually think.

Taylor, you're wrong in your answer.

I think you doubled down on your business
based on what I know

about background events.

And I to me, that would be the biggest new
like double double down.

Put your money where your mouth is,
put your time where your mouth is.

I'm just going all in on
what you're up to and, you know, simple.

So that's from an outsider's perspective.

I know you have this one customer
and are super stoked about that,

but I've seen you double down.

I think that your,

from what I can tell, your biggest kind
of win over the last year and challenge.

I don't know if you agree with that
or not.

If you disagree with my disagreement.

This could go on for hours.

Well, a couple things about that
I want to say.

Number one, when I reached out to y'all

and asked you guys
to be a part of this panel,

I think I told you that this has been

one of the absolute highlights
of my ten years of running my business

because of these relationships
that I built with people.

you know, Taylor, you know, I think it met

a time or two before,
but we didn't know each other super well.

Justin, I didn't know you at all. Roy.

I didn't know you at all.

And it's amazing the the relationships
that have been built, but, man,

there's been lunches and texts
and phone calls and emails and I've.

I've loved being able to have other people
act as a sounding board and,

and being able to,
to be a sounding board for other folks.

And so I love this banter.

and I think it just speaks to, you know,
what, what we want to accomplish.

We want to inspire and encourage current
and future entrepreneurs.

And we talk a lot about mentorship
and having, you know, a peer group.

And and, you know, I love I love hearing
hearing you guys talk about this,

Taylor, is one of the thing.

I think, that's that resonated with me
about your story,

about that that long sales cycle.

Number one, there's a lot to be said
for perseverance and dedication.

but also

something that
we talk about internally at my company

a lot is we're not about transactions,
we're about relationships.

And the fact that you guys are willing
to stick in it and and you know,

being it for the long haul shows,
I think that y'all are all about

relationships as well.

Yeah.

I looked at the I just got the actual data
pouring through our CRM.

it was July 18th, 2014, was

when they said, hey, here's the directions
to come meet with us in person.

So yeah, pretty much ever since then,

maybe not quarterly,
but definitely annually,

we would bring em up and say, you're not
interested in making a switch, are you?

And then so we got nine
nine no's over nine years,

and then a maybe sometime last year.

So I agree with you.

You know, we went through a big rebranding
a couple of years ago.

And the thing that came out of it was,
we build software

and we build relationships
and are kind of tongue in cheek.

Thing is,

you don't have to pay us in order for us
to accomplish half of our mission.

We love the relationship
building aspect, of what we do.

And so they could have this particular
client could have said, no,

and we would have said, we'll
talk to you again in ten years or so.

We'll be around.

but I'm thankful that,
they said yes, at least at this juncture.

I love it.

Roy, over to you.

What what's been the biggest thing that's
happened to you in the last 12 months?

I'll call it a more of a personal battle
than anything else.

And I mean, I think once again,
I know Taylor from outside

of all this work stuff
when we talk on a friend level.

But fighting, fighting the pressure
that it should look

a certain way as a founder, like,
you know, Scott might do it this way

or Taylor might do it
this way. Just might do it this way.

Fill in the blank
Twitter personality does it this way.

And fighting the urge to make my life

and my schedule and my success factors
theirs and mimic that.

Honestly,

if when I ever stray and try
to find success based on those metrics

or whatever that person may deem
or what the world deems a success, like

being a founder absolutely sucks

when I can just do me and what you know

and my perspective, what I feel God,
my family, kind of desire and want for me.

If I'm in that vibe, man, life opens up

and becomes unshackled
from the stress of being a founder.

But as soon as I say, man, if I were right
now, like, you know,

Justin's had a success over the last year
and started a company and, you know,

the tens or what have you, if I was

if that was my benchmark,
I'd be like, man, this sucks.

You know, life sucks, my business sucks.

I was kind of stuff.

But no, I'm on the right course.

Like, Taylor's been persistent,
consistent, trying to win that customer.

So I think it's just staying the course,
staying in my lane.

knowing that I'm on the on the right path
and the good fight.

Of course, I need outside perspective
speaking into it, speaking truth.

But none of this comparison ego stuff.

So that's part of the biggest challenge.

And, you know,
that's part of the challenge.

Every day I have my marriage or whatever
else's, find that ego.

So I would say that's
still what I'm learning.

and I think the podcast, I ended this,

Scott, with you the first time,
like startups are spiritual.

I think that is foremost
what I'm learning.

And that's still
today. The biggest challenge,

Something that

has struck me as I've interviewed many,
many dozens of founders at this point,

is that there's no one path
to entrepreneurship.

And, Taylor, your story is so unique
because you're like a reverse

founder, like,

you started this thing
and you had other people run it,

and then you later actually
stepped into it as your full time job.

I still like
can't get my head around that,

but but applying that growing
to what you were saying, just because

so-and-so does it this way doesn't mean
that it's the way to do it.

And and,
you know, just like all organizations

have core values that are different,
you know, that's okay.

Like, let's let's settle on who

who we want to be,
how we want to go about things and

and not worry about what
the outside world is doing.

That doesn't mean
that you don't look for benchmarks

and you don't look for input
from from people outside. But

comparison is the thief of joy.

so quote that I just, I love and I think
that's what you're speaking to here.

When you often look like an idiot,
people from the outside.

And if you really care
what they think about, I mean,

and my high school self really cared
about people thinking I was an idiot and,

I just yeah, doing all the things
we're doing are completely stupid.

except for ideally us and the path
we're on and what we're convinced about.

So anyways.

just like,

biggest lesson, biggest takeaway
from from your exit

or from getting to, to
start this new thing.

Oh, man.

I will say, Roy, what you were sharing
resonated a lot.

I would say that this has been
a personal growth season for me.

You know, and just because there was an
exit doesn't doesn't mean that, you know,

there's life changing money or there's,
it doesn't come without all the feelings,

the bitterness of how this could have gone
differently or,

wishing and comparing to other people
have had bigger exits.

I mean, it's it's been a lot.

What I will say
is that, my biggest lesson

this past year is that
I thought God's will

was a job or a place.

And what I've learned
is it's just more of him.

So that's been the journey
that I've been on the past year.

is trying to figure that out, you know,
and I think the truth is,

the more that you have delight in him,

the more he's going to give you
the desires of your heart.

And that's really
what kind of has been the focus here.

you know, and then, man, like,

what is going to allow me to do that?

And a pace and a job that allows me to,
in fact, reprioritize has my life

so that it looks more appealing to myself,
my family instead of the world.

And I think it is a little contrary.

So, yeah, I mean, that's

kind of a lot of word vomit,
to what I'm going through.

But obviously
that's kind of where my head is.

the transaction itself, what I'll say is,

you know, the the business world
is ultimately transactional.

And I think just hearing each of you

talking about how it's, Scott,
you said it's relational.

That was the biggest lesson
that I learned.

When money changes
hands, it's transactional.

When people's lives are affected,

you tend to resort to it
being transactional instead of relational.

what I would say
is that, you know, making it more

about relationship and making it more
about taking care of everybody

else needs to be a primary goal,
in any organization.

And as read away went forward
and it grew larger,

you lose track of some of those
important things that you set out to do.

So if I could go back to myself
ten years ago

when we started the business,
I would have stuck

to every one of those promises
that I have made.

because now if I have anything

that haunts me post closed,
I'd say it's it's those things, right?

Like, oh man, did I not end well here.

Did I not take care of this person? so

yeah,

I'd say that that's pretty much the year.

Yeah.

So on that real quick, I want to
I want to drill down on that.

Is that

I'm going to call it doubt or questioning.

Like is that something that you're
putting on yourself, or is that something

that you're actually getting
from people outside?

No, I'm putting it on myself.

And that's a founder, right?

I think you tend to look at everything
and question

if you could do things different
or better.

you know, because you see that

your actions have consequences, right?

And if you look at it on paper,
everything that we did for the business

and for the people was, was good, right?

But you know what happens a year later?

What happened six months post close.

There are consequences
to those types of things.

And, those are the things that you learn
after having, had a transaction.

Again, I think any entrepreneur goes
into starting a business

to sell one day, right?

Like that's the holy grail is to start
to operate, to build, and then to exit.

that doesn't have to be the case.

You can hand it off,
you can sell to your employees.

There's a million different options.

And I think that what I'm learning is
that it doesn't have to just be,

it doesn't have to be what the world
and the business world designs it.

Right is to make maximum value,
I think values and,

creating a better life for people.

Right? Not just yourself.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

well, I mentioned values a minute ago,

and in my company, one of our core
values is continuous learning.

And I think that most entrepreneurs
are people

who are always trying
to learn something new, whether it's,

you know, a personal skill
or how to how to lead better.

and I, I'm a huge audible fan.

I've probably got three dozen items on my
wish list that people have told me about.

And so I get my best book recommendations
from talking to folks like you.

So I'd love to hear what what has been
the best business

leadership, management, whatever
kind of book that that you'll have read.

in the last year or two.

Roy, why don't we start with you?

I recently moved

to a new spot and got a little bit
more space, if you will.

And so I started reading a book called
The Gift of Good Land by Wendell Berry.

It's a collection of essays,
and it's just his riffs,

the early 80s, late 70s,
about the industrialization of farming.

And it actually has amazing parallels
because it's all about scaling and how,

you know, kind of back to like part of the

theme is everybody wants bigger scale.

You know, we're supposed to do all these
things at scale, but ultimately, like

the more

you scale, the more you're dependent
on these outside systems going your way.

So let's just think about the power
at your house. Right?

Well, you're trusting a power company
to do those things.

So, you know,
most of us are outsourcing our power.

But you see this,
you know, insourcing of power, i.e.

solar or it's, you know, water,
you know, we're on.

Well, all that to say, let's say it's
the rise of cloud computing.

You have people coming back

and bringing data centers
in-house or operating them themselves.

But this book kind of,
gave me a new framing on, you know, he's

talking about farming and the power scythe
and the use of horse over tractor.

so he does not depend on oil company
or a machine or the repairman or whatever.

trying to think about where
I need to outsource things and where

I need to just focus on not being scalable
and just being super simple.

And so that's been a really good book
in that weird vein.

but once again,
like the best business books

usually for me
are not written for business.

Like, that's not the point of them.

And they're usually philosophical,
usually written by a dead guy,

Wendell Berry, still alive,
thank goodness.

But anyway, so gift of good land.

If you happen to be into farming

and you happen to like things
that are analogous to, running a business.

I love that. And

you bring up a really good point.

I, I'm constantly looking for things

to take from everyday life or whatever.

And, you know, figure out
how it can apply to the business.

I, my wife and I got to cross off
a bucket list item.

A couple of years ago,
Garth Brooks came and played in Dallas.

I've always wanted to see him.

And literally while we're in the concert,
like, I wrote down like 15 things that

that I could learn from that Garth Brooks
performance and I'd apply to my business.

And you must.

Not have been drinking.

Actually, that's like an entrepreneur's,

like, great way to ruin
a, like a date night in a concert.

Like just pulling out your yellow
legal pad and just, like, scratching out,

you know, business.

Eyes on the.

Yellow Apple notes, app.

But, I actually, I, I'll confess,
I do get some of my best ideas

when I've had a beverage or two or. Yeah.

You know, so,

I think that actually was largely
where some of that inspiration came from.

You think they're your best ideas?

All right, Justin, how about you?

man, I've read a lot.

I read a lot of,
you know, faith based books.

And every once in a while,
you find a really going

to kind of dissects business and faith.

And I read, I grab it.

It's called Sacred Space by Terry Luper.

read it.

Taylor.

man, it was just the right book
at the right time, you know?

it was about a guy.

Terry
Lee was a very successful businessman.

there's no plug here. I don't know him.

but he talked about how he just got
burned out really quick from working

too hard and didn't recognize his wife,
didn't know his kids type of thing.

And then he, learned his own process
of getting neutral, essentially slowing

his pace of work down, surrounding himself
with, a wealth of advisors,

seeking all the information
and then acting on that.

And what he found is that changed
the way he made decisions.

It changed the way that he processed
each day.

he started to give money differently.

He started to treat his employees
differently.

And ultimately,
it it made his home life so much better.

So just by slowing down,
not working at a feverish pace, doing it

for the right reasons, reprioritizing
he found a better work life.

and ultimately,
the premise is a more successful life too.

So, that was that was a book,
but it's very impactful again.

Right? Right
book. Right time, but highly recommend it.

Awesome.

Yeah, I read that one
a couple of years ago.

It was it was excellent.

I actually have I'm
like two degrees away from him.

Terry is based in Houston,
Texas, and I have a a friend that,

where Terry work for a nonprofit.

I'm sorry, my friend work for a nonprofit
where Terry was on the board of

and said he's the real deal
like he is like that book

kind of emanates his personality
and he's just a really slow, thoughtful.

I mean, it kind of goes back to
some of the themes

we were just talking about, of
just being focused on relationship.

They were like, he is
he is a relational person.

And, for someone
who's a energy billionaire out of Houston,

you would expect that kind of hard
charging.

And, you know,
personality, big personality.

And they're like, he's a humble guy.

And he he's been kind of on that slow,
sacred pace journey for,

I don't know, when that

kind of crisis happened because I think in
the book he talked about like

he was either having

he thought he was having a stroke
or a heart attack or so

there was some sort of medical issue,
some like nervous breakdown.

Yeah. Yeah.

That kind of catalyzed
a change in his life.

And I think it's been like 30 or 40 years
since that moment.

So he's just kind of been living this,

yeah, slow sacred pay
that had that book had a profound

impact on me as well.

Well, apart from Sacred Pace, what else?

Taylor, you got something new?

Yeah. it's also in the same vein.

the guy named Cal Newport
wrote a book years ago called Deep Work.

Cal is a computer science nerd.

He, has a PhD from MIT
in theoretical computer science.

He now teaches computer science at,
Georgetown in DC.

so he's got this, like,
super smart academic background,

but he also writes books.

I say for people like me,
who are not that smart or don't have,

you know, a high math background, deep
Work for me was a pivotal book about,

I don't know when that came out,
but that that book for me was awesome.

And he has a latest
one called Slow Productivity.

And slow productivity
basically has three points that's very,

very similar, to sacred pace
but slow productivity.

The output is basically do
fewer things, work at a natural pace

and focus on quality like that's that's
the that's the headline right there.

And I love the work at a natural pace
where he talks about,

in an agrarian society,

you are largely dependent
upon the seasons, upon the four seasons.

Like, you can't go harvest
when there aren't things to harvest.

And then the industrial society,
we moved into

a, output

based mentality and a work based mentality
that was widgets

per unit of time, widgets per hour,
widgets per month, or something like that.

And in knowledge
work, we're kind of still scratching.

We don't know what the,
what the measurement is like.

What's the single measurement?

like an if an agrarian society is yield
per acre or something

like that, or yield per harvest season
and industrial is widgets

per, you know, unit of time and knowledge
work.

We're still kind of scratching like
we're still on the very early outskirts of

if you're in software
or perhaps management

consulting or something where
most of your work is done by your mind.

We haven't quite figured out
what a natural pace

looks like,
and so we see the effects of it.

We see people quiet, quitting,
we see people burning out.

We see a lot of a lot of mental
health issues.

And so the kind of crux of the book is,

you know,
we need to focus on a slower productivity.

and as knowledge workers, by doing fewer

things, work in a natural pace
and then just obsessing over quality,

I kind of run a lot of these books
that I've read recently together,

because once I find an author
who I really, really like, like

I tend to read the author and I'll like,
go back through their entire catalog.

So I ended up buying every book
that Cal wrote

after I finished Slow Productivity
and just read them all.

And they're all like, great.

And I've tried to shift and mold

a lot of what
I've done around his kind of philosophy.

so now they're all kind of run together,

but slow productivity,
deep work was the one that I first read.

I would I might recommend starting off
with that and then doing the same path.

I did go into slow productivity,

and then maybe working on your way
backwards through digital minimalism,

a world without email,

which is just kind
of a fascinating concept in and of itself.

and then what are some of oh, so good
they can't ignore you?

He's a little a little bit of
a contrarian by nature, but,

You're not.

I, I mean,
I don't get why you're like, I'm.

Yeah. So.

And I'll one more plug.

the a book that I read last year
called The Road Less Stupid.

but I got in Keith Cunningham,
and the whole premise of that is

we should, as entrepreneurs and business
owners,

allocate 45 minutes
a week of thinking time.

His big thing is, you know,
you need to set aside

an hour where you're not around
any devices.

You do have a yellow legal pad

and you prior to your thinking time,

you pose
maybe 1 or 2 like really good questions.

You say, this is the question
that I'm going to wrestle

with for 45 minutes to an hour,
and then you just write down,

you know, everything that comes to mind.

And so the book basically proposes
this idea of thinking time.

But there's 760 ish questions
that he a bank of questions

that come from that book.

And they're all like gold.

I had an idea, read the book
and put all the questions in a spreadsheet

and, categorize them
so I could come back to them

and use them in my own thinking time.

But, that that was an excellent,
excellent read.

Man. Can you can
you answer those questions

while listening to Garth Brooks?

Only if you've had a beverage or two.

our books, though, aren't books, though,

like the most undervalued thing,
like at 20 to 40 bucks a hardcover,

like the ROI on a book,
they're dramatically underpriced.

Like, it's insane how cheap they are
relative to the value you get out of them.

All right, so

a couple things here.

Digital book, audiobook or physical book.

Taylor.

it has to be physical
and it has to be hardcover.

Wow. Justin.

physical.

doesn't have to be hardcover,
but I do need a pen or a highlighter.

When I read,
they're not bougie like Taylor.

I understand the hardcover truthfully,
because,

you know, at some point
I went to a paperback and then my whole,

you know, bookshelf.

I screwed up at that point,
so I couldn't, you know,

I lost the desire to have a hardback.

Really.

I'd say all of the above.

Only partly because I'm pretty moody
when I read or what I want to read.

And so I need to have I usually, if I
like a book, I'll buy in every format.

Okay.

In that same vein, Taylor,
so you pick up a, a notepad,

are you all digital
for pretty much everything,

or do you still keep paper
notes, handwritten paper notes?

As a result of slow productivity?

I went backwards.

I, I he really makes the case
for going analog

in a lot of things and in distance
in yourself from technology.

So I'm kind of going the other way,
even though I'm

a programmer by trade
and I, you know, seek

to create efficiencies through software,
I'm going backwards.

For those that are just listening.

Justin held up his,
his physical notepad just a second ago.

Roy. No, I, I walk a lot,
and I don't want to bring a legal pad

with me walking, sweaty legal pads
and all that kind of stuff.

Don't make a lot of sense,
but I like to walk and just note,

audibly and it, you know,
especially with ChatGPT all these things.

Now you can just speak into a tool
and it'll dictate for you.

So that's what
I find to be the best rhythm for me.

So I, I'm a techie.

That's a large part of why
I do the kind of work that I do.

And for the longest time
I wanted everything digital.

and a couple years ago, I picked up
a moleskin notebook at the airport.

And for some reason,
there was something about physically

handwriting a pen and paper
about the way that I was able

to get stuff out of my head versus
just typing away at the keyboard.

now, at the same

time, I left my notebook at home,
and when I got into the office

this morning

and headed into our leadership team
meeting, first thing, I was like, oh geez.

And so it's this weird dichotomy of
I want it physical,

but I also want, I want it wherever I go.

So if somebody can fix
that problem, let me know.

All right.

all right.

Depending on who you talk
to, we are in a recession.

We're headed for a recession.

Or we somehow had this little soft landing
and skipped over it.

I'm curious,
what is your take on the state

of things and what,
if any, effect, positive or negative?

Is it having on on your business?

and just
and actually I want to start with you.

You're, you're
going into a completely new venture.

And as an aside,
I think, correct, I'm wrong, but

I think you're going to this not so much
as an operator, but as an investor.

And, I think that's a place
that a lot of people want to get to.

As you think about this, this investment
that you're making in this venture,

like where
how does the economy factor into that?

Yeah.

So I'll, I'll answer kind of the
overarching, what I think is happening.

I think an election cycle
is always going to make people cautious.

I would say if we're not in a recession,
we are getting very close to one.

And I think that the election itself
is going to cause some

very deep market ripples.

Now, as part of my investing on the side,

which I'll get to in a second, I'm
still looking for what I want to do next.

And I've talked to private equity folks
and family offices

to run portfolio companies
and things like that.

And what I've learned is that business
owners are skittish right now.

I even do some business brokers
brokerage on the side and,

you know, people don't want to slow down

or change
something that is working right now.

So the M&A market has really slowed.

I think all that alludes to the fact that,

you know,
people are at least afraid of the future.

So, you know, and to now until November,
I think things are going

to be pretty tight.

Job market seems really tight right now.

I know we still had a big jobs number.

correction, last weekend.

So I would say that, you know,
people are going to hold tight for now.

for the investor side,
you know, it's really recession proof,

recurring revenue, high cash flow models
that anybody is looking at.

If you have them,
you don't want to get rid of them.

If you are investing,
you want to recreate it or buy that.

And again, it's just really hard to do.

So one of the investments
we're looking at is, start up in a

recession proof model.

and, you know, finding the right operator,
I believe that.

And all the entrepreneurs that are hearing
this are going to agree

that you back a person
just as much as you back an idea.

And when you find a really good person,

you know, it's easier
to put your investment to that.

So you couple the operator with,

recession proof idea, I think
I think you have a winning combination.

I wholeheartedly agree, Taylor.

How about you?

How's the economy affecting y'all?

I this isn't something
I spend a lot of mind cycles on.

for the most part, for better
or for worse, I'm like an ostrich,

and I just stick my head in the sand,

and I just kind of focus
on what's right in front of me.

I don't read much

macro economics.

I don't pay that much attention
to global markets or the US markets.

I can't control them.

I'm like an Enneagram eight, which,
if you're not familiar with Enneagram, is

this is someone who loves to control
and have power over things,

not in like a power hungry way,
but just like

these are the
I know, I'm know in which way.

Let's be honest. Okay, fine. All right.

And I can't control the macro economy,
but I can steward

what's right in front of me

and my team and the relationships
I have with my customers.

And so, I don't know, this is a long
winded way of me saying, pass.

Roy, I'd love to hear your answer.

No, I'm in the same boat, by and large.

Like I don't dress for the weather
for next week.

I'm kind of, you know, whatever
the weather is like today is how I dress.

But that could be stupid,
because if I bring on a production

capacity and a big storm hits
and it puts it out.

So I want to say I'm probably

a little bit Pennywise pound foolish
with how I think about macro.

I'm really just laser focused on my piano
and piano that I'm involved in.

I currently

see no vibe shift
and it's all systems go inside of.

But I'm kind of in this compliance world,
which

no matter which party is in power,
tends to increase.

and so I think it's probably not

recession proof,
but closest to to that is you can be.

So that's kind of the world I live in.

Not because I'm so smart and I pick that,

but just because that's the world
I've played in for 20 years.

So, so far for me, it's
not really impacting either.

Which one?

I was in Alaska, maybe three weeks ago

with my son on a father son trip, and

I looked at we did we did get access to
it was largely off grid,

but we did get access
to internet early in the morning,

and I would check the weather
to see how to dress on for a hike.

And one of the regulars there was like,
you can't trust

that no one pays attention
to weather up here.

Like I was like, what do you mean?

And he's like,
weather moved so quick up here.

Like it can be forecast to 74
and like there's

going to be a storm that blows
and it's going to be 41 and raining.

so just prepare for every possibility.

and I think that's
how I've at least tried to run

our little business is

I remember this business professor
drilled into me when I was at Auburn.

There's only one reason that businesses
fail.

People will pontificate
on all these other reasons,

but there's really only one.

And that is they run out of cash.

If you don't run out of cash,
then that business will.

What?
I mean, you could have a founder die.

You can have management mistakes,
whatever.

If that business still has cash flow,
someone's

going to step in and figure it out
and that business will not fail.

And so for me, it's

been again staying,

having my ostrich head in the sand.

It's been
how do I not get too far out over my skis.

How do I not how do I control our growth?

How do I, pull back on

my go go go go go mentality of like,
wanting to build all the things but say,

all right, what's
what's a measured, reasonable way to grow?

and not levered up the company or over
not even just lever leverage them

our risk our financial resources
a bit leverage of my team's time.

So, Yeah.

That's but and then keeping a sizable
enough cash position where

if there are storms,
then I can weather it and be okay.

Yeah.

I am, I have a theory

in Taylor where I think kind of similar.

Roy, you may play a little bit
further up market than we do.

and Justin right away would probably fit
in this category as well.

But from my perspective,
when these big macroeconomic

things happen one way or the other,
especially on the downside, I think

I feel like if you're
if you're focused on the mid-market,

you don't feel it
the same way that you do.

If you're in B2B
and you're serving enterprise customers,

having come from the consulting world

and having friends that are still at these
really, really large firms

that are focused on serving other very,
very large firms, fortune

500 types, man, they were feeling this
hard starting probably 18 months ago.

And it doesn't look
like they're coming around soon,

but I feel like most of the people
that are in kind of the space

that we're in, you know,
it may not be gangbusters growth,

but things are kind of holding on strong.

I don't know if you guys have
any any thoughts on that.

No. Good that I, I'm learning.

I don't have anything intelligent
to say, to be honest.

I think whenever I'm around people
in these big

corporate environments, I'm just like,
you're an alien to me, I just don't.

I can't survive in thinking
even how to exist

one day in that world, let alone
what the economy's doing in that world.

Like it's just uncomfortable
for me to be in that world.

So I don't think about it.

But I would largely agree that.

I mean, there's that book
called antifragile, but you seem to leave,

and it's just like when you have a series
of smaller transactions,

it makes you less fragile,
because if any one moves or whatever it

of course, he compares it
to a taxicab driver or a prostitute.

But, you know, I don't want to be either
one of those things, per se, but,

nonetheless,

smaller transactions
makes you less fragile.

Should something seismic macro hit?

Yeah, yeah, I would say that.

Also the larger
this is probably a trope, but

the larger cup companies
presumably should be more efficient

because they have more resources,
but they're often not.

Yeah.

and mid-market

serving, mid-market and serving
maybe more B2C or consumers.

You have to be operationally excellent
and efficient.

We don't have the the benefit
of having a lot of excess fat.

And so you have to be on point.

so yeah, if you're serving perhaps

large fortune
500 or fortune 1000 companies

and it's

perhaps you're selling something
that's is discretion

or is discretionary or appears to be
is perceived then like that's

going to get cut by some budget when,
when they feel the effects of stuff.

So that's my riff.

real quick

for those that are streaming
this, we are going to take some questions.

so if you will be so bold
as to put them, put them in the comments,

we'll, we'll open it up for some,
some live Q&A here in just a bit.

all right.

couple more questions for our panel here.

Where do you see your business
going over the next year?

Is it is it holding steady?

Is it massive growth?

Is it, going into a whole new arena

where
what are your plans for the year ahead?

Taylor? What?

Start with you.

we're actually up from last year.

we're we're 30% year
to date over last year.

which I'm, I'm thankful for.

I think part of it is some of the long
term bets that we've been making and,

you know, ten years ago
or now kind of come into fruition.

and I think that's probably

going to be the same story on a go forward
basis is I think,

I think that we're going to be continue
to continue to grow again.

I don't really have
that much control over it.

so every customer that does come on board,
I'm kind of like surprisingly thankful.

I'm like, oh, well, they,
you know, they chose us.

praise the Lord.

so I, I think,
I think that we're going to grow

probably in the somewhere
between 15 to 40% range.

And I'm, I'm, I'm happy
that that makes me happy.

If we stayed steady and didn't grow at all

like I would be, I would be happy
completely happy with that.

my predictions about the future are,

this is a contrarian take,
I don't I think AI is overhyped.

I think there are going
to be some efficiencies.

but I think it's not going to be as near
as impactful as people make it out to be.

I won't go so far as to call it
snake oil, but

it's it's been in that

I would put it in that category
six months ago.

My long term prediction is that AI

is never going to be able to be able
to substitute for human relationships.

and I think that is
it's a tool to be used.

And if people keep it in the tool
category, then it's great.

but when people start

using it

and co-opting
it instead for human relationships,

I think that's just going to lead
to fraying of the social, social fabric.

And I think that people are going
to continue to value, probably more

so than ever, the human component of,

of business, and of working with

someone who knows them,
who understands them, who can hear them.

And so to the degree that I can kind of

steer
our company that way into really focusing

on the relational aspect of what we do
while still being

operationally excellent and continuing
to create value for our customers.

I think that's that's
kind of where we're headed.

And that's
that's my prediction on the future.

You talk about that human element.

And, man,
I think one of our biggest takeaways

from the pandemic was just how important
that human connection was.

And as we have as we've

brought people
in to interview and hired, we're

we're unashamedly
an in-person, work environment.

And we certainly have missed out
on some candidates that have

said, oh, it's not remote or,
oh, it's not at least hybrid.

sorry, I'm not I'm not interested,

but I'm blown away at the number of people
that have said,

I'm interested in this job
because I like the company,

I like the culture, but I can't work
another day out of my house.

I have to get out.

I have to be around
the people that I'm working with.

I have to feel a part of something.

And so I think, I think what you just
said, Taylor, is, is absolutely spot on.

Roy, what about you?

What is what is business look like for,
from studio over the next year?

Yeah, I think.

I there's that book
called Thinking in Bets.

And so I'll use that phrase here, but,

we're right now
just putting bets on the board.

so over the next year,

we'll have very little gratification
of not eating the donut.

I might weigh a little bit less tomorrow
if I just avoid the alcohol

and the donuts,
but it's honestly going to be a everyday

discipline of making the decisions
before I see any kind of pay off.

So, honestly, my goal pretty much
every month, whenever we do our,

you know, we close them.
Either way, we're still in business.

Baby. Let's go.

People pay us, we build, we got money.

We got operating capital.
Let's let's keep pressing that.

So right now,
I'm kind of just risk on taking bets.

Not anything crazy.

I'm a I'm a cheap ass at heart,
and so I don't.

I'm pretty frugal with things.

and so I would just say

I'm predicting a year of steady, and just

really, am I going to take this medicine?

Am I going to try to go for fast
gains and ratchet up?

and if I do that, if you interview me
next year, I'll be out of business.

and so if I just stay the course

and just try to make payroll
this month and month over month, I'll be.

I'll be good.

So not just launching things as they go.

So that's where I'm at.

really talking about being conservative
for for those that may not have listened,

go check out his episode and he talks
about playing with house money and,

you know, setting yourself
up, in different ways.

So I'm glad that you remembered something
from our podcast.

Scott. Dude,
I remember a lot from our podcast.

I actually have known you
for over a decade,

and I learned so much about you that
somehow Scott pulled out in the podcast.

I was like,
how have I never heard this before?

Forge. Forge signatures.

Asking these questions. They were coming.

All right, I learned I learned a lot

from Justin's, too, by the way,
that was one of my favorites as well.

Thanks to.

Justin.

You're getting you're getting things off
the ground.

What what is what is day to day
look like for you right now?

Wow. my wife asks me that.

Right?

Like, we go through our calendars and
she's like, what is your week look like?

And it's just, it's a it's weird. Right?

Like you, I have 4 or 5 things that
I'm doing, all of which could be a future.

And, it's also like, man,
I could make all four of these a future.

So it's a lot of plates
that are spinning in the air.

And,
I'm just trying to keep the ones spinning

and letting those drop
that really have no future.

But it's fun.

And what I'll say is that,

it's as an entrepreneur, it's
also really fun to be at zero, right?

Because you have nowhere to go but up,

you know,
and you kind of set goals as you go

because you can set unrealistic goals,
which really hurt your first year.

Or you can set,
you know, conservative goals, which helps

you blow it out of the water
and you feel like a hero.

So that's kind of where we're at with
some of these startup things.

but yeah,

I would say that as far as day to day
goes, you kind of make of it

what you want.

you know, spending more time with kids.

I do work for a nonprofit,
which is, you know,

hugely rewarding.

so it's it's just really encouraging
to have a little bit of freedom.

Freedom of thought.

And I do want to, say one thing about,

when we were talking about big events
and being lower middle market.

you know what?

I realized?

Our company during Covid pivoted,
and we were medical ways.

So we were right
in the middle of everything.

And that's when entrepreneurship came out.

And we had guys that worked,
you know, heavy hours.

We had to hire people.

We are we grew by $1 million,
our top line just from being Covid.

And then you lose that money
and you want to take care of those folks.

So then you have to work
really, really hard.

And what that created in our business
was just a we can get through

any hard times mentality,
and we still kept our priorities.

So we weren't overworking.

And I think that's why you see these

lower, smaller, B2B companies
being very successful is they didn't,

they didn't develop this laziness.

It was created in these large corporations
that seem to be overloaded with money.

So, I think that's why
we were successful.

And whatever business is next,
it's going to have the same mentality of,

you know, work hard, love each other.

Well, stay

aggressive, but not to the

point where you lose
sight of where your priorities are.

I love it.

Well, when we were planning for this
and I went to our marketing department

with the idea for for this format,
they said, okay, well, Scott,

if you're going to ask them questions,
you have to open

up, yourself
and you have to sit in the hot seat.

So everybody,
each of you gets to, to fire away,

and whoever wants to go first,
how about it?

I guess I'll go.

when you were in my office,
you had a really bad rash

that you were.

no. What? So.

All right.

Yeah.

All right, so what decision are you going
to make the next six months? That

you think
will literally fork the business?

Is there is there something looming,
then or in Scott's life?

I'm sure things

you can't say it publicly,
but I'm sure there are things you can say.

what decision is looming for you?

What it like is ish.

What is it,
and how are you kind of framing it up?

And who are you soliciting feedback for?

Yeah.

Taylor, when you were talking
about one of the books,

I think it was slow productivity
and it was like, pick a few things

and do them really, really well.

that got me thinking about

areas in, in our business
where we have failed, our areas

where we thought, oh, we can take this on
and take this on and take this on,

but not truly dedicate resources
to those things.

And we've had a number of false starts
on things

because we haven't really had the, the,
the resources to commit to them.

And so

what this looks like for me

is figuring out what is truly,
truly important and what is not.

And let's figure out
how to devote the right resources

so that we can actually make a dent
in that thing that we're wanting to do.

I give you some examples.

There's some partnerships
that we've we've attempted to take on, but

years later,
we've really got nowhere with it

because we didn't put somebody full time.

Like that's what they
that was their mission in

life was to wake up every day

thinking about this partnership
and building out this service offering.

And we got a year into it
and we're scratching our heads,

going, well, why didn't
why don't we have any projects in this?

Well, we didn't
we didn't really devote ourselves to it.

And so, and funny enough, last week,

one of those kinds of things
where we wanted to build out this,

the service offering,
we kind a lead on our website and

from there it was like,
well, we're not going to do this.

All right.

Let me reach out to folks in my network
and hand this person off to somebody

who does wake up every day
thinking about this.

So it's it's more of those kinds
of things, figuring out

what are we going to do and figuring out
how to allocate the resources to them.

Make sense?

And just how

how I have an A in B in mind is

much more, you know, germane than Roy's.

How bad is Texas going to beat A&M

at Kyle Field this year.

And one B how are you going to wrestle
with that loss.

And then number two what is going.

This is second question.

what is the most dog eared book
that you keep returning to?

that you like, pick up
and you just come back to over and over

and over again, either, from a business
perspective, let's exclude the Bible.

what? Yeah.

What is what is a dog eared book

that you come back to either for business
or if it might even be fiction.

But, yeah, those are my.

1 or 2 gonna I'm
gonna answer your second question first.

easily.

Essentialism by Greg McEwan.

If you haven't read it, can't recommend it
highly enough.

it is a book that I tell myself
I need to read it at least once a year,

and it probably ends up being every 18
to 24 months that I pick it back up.

But, and again, like this,
this idea that we were just talking

about of, you know, pick a few things
and do them well, that's

that's one

thing that you can take from this,
but it goes much further.

And, and applies to so many aspects
of your life, like down the

how much clutter do you have
in your closet and, you know,

get rid of get rid of physical things,
get rid of time sucks.

Get rid of get rid of everything
that is not essential to your life.

And I'd be lying if I said that I have,
like, achieved, essentialism.

I think it's it's kind of like balance.

You're always having to balance. Right.

And so, so,
so many takeaways from from that book,

speaking of things that are essential,
like college football.

man, I,

I don't even know what to do
with that question.

We open this weekend against Notre Dame,
which,

is a great way to start your season
with a brand new coach.

so it's going to be interesting.

Playing at Kyle Field is

even for, you know, the number one team
coming into Kyle Field.

You know, that's a that's a factor.

And so I like her chances.

But I'm not going to be so brash
as to say that we're going to stomp them.

but I might cry if we don't.

Are you go into that game.

I wish that would be incredible, but,
not not in the cards this year.

Yeah.

I was looking at the resale value
of those tickets just for whatever reason,

and they're, like, insane.

You can buy crazy.

You can buy Thanksgiving Day tickets
for the Dallas Cowboys game, which is

always a big game, cheaper than you can
buy tickets to the A&M Texas game.

And it's by several multiples.

that that the A&M
Texas game is more as well.

All right.

Justin,

I wasn't listening for a minute
because you start talking about football.

And I went to Kentucky, so nothing to see.

You got to Stoops.
That's true, that's true.

so my question, Scott,
is about in the thick of it.

what is something

you wish
you would have edited that you did not?

And what's something you wish
you would not have edited that you did?

And I know that's on the spot.

I was going to email it ahead of time, but
I'm like, no, it's kind of on the spot.

This might be more fun.

So, man, that's an interesting question.

I, I can only think of a handful of things
that we have edited out

that somebody didn't ask us to take out.

one of the things that we tell people
when they,

when they come in the studio is, hey,
you know, we can cut this up.

And if you get into something
and you get into a topic area

and you realize
after the after after the fact,

you don't want that out in the world
and just let us know and we can cut it.

And that has happened.

people have kind of said some things

that,
you know, didn't mean any, anything by

but afterward thought, you know, maybe,
maybe that might not come across.

Right. So we've, we've,

we've only ever we've taken things out
that people have requested.

We did have an interview, where

we talked to somebody

about their inspiration for starting
what was their first business.

And I'm not going to,

I'm not going to elaborate
too much on this, but

when we asked about their motivation
to get into their very first business,

it was something that was probably not,

the sort of thing that
most of our audience would resonate with.

And I'm just going to leave it
very, very vague.

And so, we we cut that out.

thank you for cutting that out.

I really appreciate it.

I wasn't so sure.

no, but nobody on this podcast, on this,
this episode.

so what is something I wish that I don't

I don't really have anything that I,
I wish that we

would have edited out, I'm

I'm so thrilled with the guests
that we've had

and the relationships and,
you know, the the

six degrees of separation that have,
you know, introduced me to people

that I never would have met had it

not been for, connecting with people
through and through this podcast.

And so I'm just so, so grateful.

And the feedback that we've got from
listeners has been just awesome.

And there have been so many
rewarding things that have come out.

Relationships being a huge one.

But shortly after,

one of our episodes launched last fall,
I think it was early October.

I met the guest for For drinks a couple
weeks after his episode had launched.

He said, hey,
I'm by and I'm like, no, man, I got this.

He goes, no, I'm buying somebody
listen to the episode that I was on

and they're now a client.

And he said, I got drinks.

And to be able to help impact
somebody else's business

that way
was just such a such a rewarding thing.

Was that Steve?

Yes. Taylor.

Actually, you were the client,
Steve Durman

yeah,
he we met for drinks and he's like, dude,

I picked up a new client
because of the podcast. And that was.

You were the client, too?

I was, I was in Phoenix
last week with Steve.

and his whole team came out
and filmed film stuff for us.

He's it.

I love that episode.

I loved his perspective on stuff.

And he's a he's absolutely their
their whole team is like killing it.

Well so yeah that came as a relationship.

There's a connection
through in the Thick of it.

Well and to the point you were made
you made about Roy earlier.

You've known him for how long and you
learn things about him you didn't know.

I've known Steve for,
I don't know, 15, 18 years.

And I didn't know the origins
of the name of his company.

And so it's it's been it's been awesome.

well, guys, this has been so much fun.
Thank you.

thank you for being,
not just a part of today,

but a part of this thing
that we've created.

you know, we've all become just great
friends and relationships that I treasure.

And I'm thankful for all of you.

And, thankful
for those that are listening. So

we're out.

Thanks, Scott. Thanks Venn.
Thank you Scott.

Thank you guys.

If you or a founder you know would like
to be a guest on In the Thick of It.

Email us at [e-mail].