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A podcast that explores how AI is transforming careers, businesses, and industries. Hosts Greg Boone and Erica Rooney deliver real-world use cases and actionable AI strategies to help professionals stay ahead of the curve.
Learn more about your hosts:
Erica Rooney, author of The AI Gap: Women, AI, and the Next Great Leap Forward
Greg Boone, author of AI at the Speed of Trust (available for pre-order)
Elena: So I think I'm a big believer
on a, um, on a human skill, which
basically on a, on a behavioral skill.
So I think the biggest question,
uh, the biggest one for me is being
curious and asking questions, uh,
and, uh, challenging and shaping.
So I think these are the biggest skills.
And, uh, it sounds like really simple.
Um, in reality, and, and this is
my, you know, diagnostic tool is
showing we don't have the skill.
We don't develop the skill, we
don't develop the skill in school,
we don't develop in college.
Uh.
And, uh, we don't develop it at work.
Greg Boone: AI isn't the future.
It's now.
And whether you're in hr, sales,
operations, or leadership, the
choices you make today will determine
whether you thrive or get left behind.
Erica Rooney: Welcome to the
AI Voice or Victim podcast.
We are live at MIT, at the AI
Powered Women Conference, and
y'all, this is incredible.
We have Elena Ali Harsh
here with us today.
And we are gonna talk about
the leadership side of ai.
We're gonna talk all about
digital literacy and AI fluency.
So Elena, welcome to the podcast.
How are you?
Elena: I'm wonderful.
Thank you so much, Erica, for invitation.
So excited to be here.
Erica Rooney: Yes.
Tell me a little bit about,
about your background.
What has you excited about ai?
Elena: Um, so I'm in technology
and data for quite a long time.
Um, over 25 years.
Um, have a chance to work for really well
known companies, fortune 400 companies.
Um, you, you name it.
Um, Dow Jones Johnson Johnson.
Um, connectivity, uh, and I have
been always a big supporter of,
um, how technology can help people.
Uh, so AI is one of the newest
technologies, but I did have
the chance, um, to live through
early ages of the digital.
So this is where I came to the publishing.
And publishing was the first industry
to, to be transformed by digital.
So I do see a lot of analogies,
um, in terms of how we.
Um, going through AI versus how
we have been going through the
social chair changes like, um,
you know, the social became really
big and, uh, or even smartphone.
Erica Rooney: Amazing.
And earlier, before we were recording,
you told me I love this name,
voice, or victim for the podcast.
So tell me what does that mean for you?
Elena: So this, this is so great because
when I saw the name of your podcast, I
said, okay, you know what, this is exactly
how we should look into this, right?
And I'm not just, uh, saying about
the eye, but, uh, another role like
our technological advancement, right?
Um, because we as human have
a choice, um, to be the voice
or to be the victim, right?
And this is actually related to,
um, to our personal life or it's
related to how we act at work.
Uh, if we look at our personal
life, um, quite now, many people
not even realizing, um, that, um, AI
technology making decisions for us.
For years already.
So this is did not happen when
JGBT just came alive, right?
So back in my work at, uh, wall
Street Journal, we have been
personalized content in 2004, right?
So this is what not was not
super smart, is how AI can do it.
But we already have been forcing
leaders to certain type of content.
So as a person, um, I'm
getting my mortgage.
AI makes decision as a person.
I'm doing my, some, let's say
like a health survey or even, you
know, doing my mammogram ai Yeah.
Is already contribution a lot, right?
So the same amount of work, um, and,
uh, I have a choice how I want to,
you know, to act on this, right?
So, like in personal life, uh,
if I'm gonna just, uh, take,
uh, health recommendation and do
nothing about it, I'm, I'm a victim.
So if I actually take it and verify
it through multiple sources, um,
question it, you know, talk to my
doctor, supplement the human insight.
So then, and I'm actually
becoming the voice, right?
So the same in person,
uh, in, um, at work.
Um.
For example, many people saying,
oh, AI is making hiring decisions.
Right?
Which, which is so true
because AI tools are now really
popular in, in hiring systems.
Uh, and as a person, we all have a
choice how we gonna act in it, right?
So, because we can just say like,
you know, I have nothing to do,
submitted my cv, and, and I gonna
be ruled out by system, right?
So in this case, I'm a victim.
So about IKEA can be voiced
if I spend time, don't
understand the requirements to.
Put my resume in the context so I
can understand me better, right?
And on opposite side, if I'm recruiter
who blindly trust in AI system to
rule out candidates, um, so you know,
I'm actually victim you some really
great, yeah, I'm a victim, right?
But if I'm a recruiter who actually
question, uh, how AI is, uh, correl,
you know, the candidates, what could be
true, what cannot be true, how I can put
diverse candidates, for example, into mix.
And so then, um, as a recruiter,
I'm becoming the voice, right?
So this is why I like your, your name.
Yes.
Erica Rooney: I love it.
No, and I love that example too
because my background is in hr.
Yep.
And I've been telling people AI has
been in that HR space for so long.
Yep.
Because we all use an
applicant tracking system.
Exactly.
And all of those applicant tracking system
filters the best applicants to the top.
Yep.
And in human nature, we're only
gonna look at the first 10.
We're gonna phone screen 'em, they're
gonna get the interviews Right.
Often those first 10 are
usually like these white male
dudes who are all right there.
If you wanna hire diverse talent,
you gotta go a little bit deeper.
Yes.
And so that's how you either choose
to be the voice or the victim of it.
But what I wanna ask you is when we
think about digital fluency, yes.
I wanna know from your perspective,
what does it mean to be digitally
fluent in today's world, and what
are some of the misconceptions
that leaders have about that?
Elena: Uh, yes, absolutely.
Fantastic question because, um, you,
you can hear different terminology
on the market, especially, uh, one
of the most popular became is, uh,
we talk about AI literacy or data
literacy or digital literacy, right?
Um, and, uh, it's, it's a great step, uh,
for people, um, to start understanding
like what is available, right?
So for me, uh, literacy is more like
a, like a passive way of, of acting,
accepting learning about the tools.
Uh, using them fluency comes into ability,
um, to really question, um, to lead with,
with the tools, um, uh, to guide them,
to guide it career, to contribute, right?
So, so fluency for me is really different.
It's actually make being able not
just accept what is happening, but
contribute, lead, engage question.
Uh, and, uh, and, and
basically shape, right?
So, um, so these are the biggest
opportunity to be honest, because,
you know, I have been, as I said,
in, um, in the space of digital
transformation quite a lot.
And, uh, I always see, um, like three
distinct, uh, opportunities, right?
So, um, doesn't matter
what technology is it?
And especially with ai.
So one distinct opportunity
is, uh, it's contributing.
I call it like a, like a
vertical success, right?
So basically how we can.
Uh, put technology, um, to advance
hr, to advance finance, to advance
supply chain marketing, right?
So this is like a vertical
integration of technology, right?
Uh, and, uh, you know, like
if you like fluent, right?
So like, you need to be fluent, right?
So the, the key, uh, point
is actually you as a leader.
Integrating this technology in the
context of your business function, in
the context of your process, right?
In the context of the, uh, of the
value creation you would love, you
know, to put in, in place, right?
And a able to influence it and
able to lead with it, right?
So the second, um, big
opportunity, which I'm seeing
is, uh, is infrastructure, right?
So, um, we did talk yesterday,
um, a little bit was a really good
presentation about, um, the data, right?
Um, and I know we have a different
audience here, somebody more
advanced, somebody less advanced,
and um, and presentation was able,
um, to cover the basics, right?
But if you go into like a really
deep in infrastructure questions,
um, I think the previous person was
talking about info security, right?
So information security, uh, data.
So this, these are fundamentals of
infrastructure and uh, we have really
lower, um, fluency to understand how.
Um, these are gonna be shaping the
future and technology and ai, right?
So we need to put like
way, one way effort, right?
Uh, and now we come to human side, right?
So we can, when went to, to
human side, unfortunately.
Um, so all these transformations, um,
we always started from technology.
We never started from the people.
Right.
Uh, so I'm a big believer that,
um, you need to start from people.
You need to understand where
each person is in personal
life or in the job function.
And, um, there is a unique way, there
is a custom way to bring this person,
um, to the fluency because we are
all, you know, unique in terms of how
we, uh, uh, understand information,
how we proceed, the behavioral side.
So I'm a big believer when I talk
about the leadership and fluency.
Um, in the behavioral side.
So behavioral side for me is
do we have a right mindset?
So do we have skills?
Uh, and again, skills doesn't
mean like a technical skill.
The skill is to, to able to
learn to question, right?
So can we articulate what we learn?
Can we question the information?
Uh, and then finally, can we lead?
Right?
So I basically came, you know, with own
framework, which I'm digitizing now.
Uh, and I'm tasting already
with, um, with some communities.
Uh, so to help people to understand
like where, where I am, like where
I am behaviorally and what type of
actions I can take to bring myself,
uh, or to bring my team to the future.
Erica Rooney: Well, I love that you talk
about the mindset as that very first.
Step because it really is this belief of,
yep, can I even do something like this
Now for people who live in the techie
world who are very AI fluent and very
digitally fluent, sure, that's super easy,
but this is a technology that's going
to impact everyone exactly everywhere.
And so even if you don't consider
yourself a technologist or a
data person or anything like
that, you have to get some level.
Of digital fluency.
Of AI fluency.
I wish they had a high school course
that was just like digital fluency 1 0 1.
I would sign up for it, you know?
But I wanna hear from you, this next
generation of leaders that are coming up,
what is it that they really need to think
about with AI literacy, data fluency,
so that they can continue to bring up
people in having the right mindset?
Like what do they need to be focused on?
Elena: Um, so let's start, uh, from
mindset really, because, uh, mindset
is ability of the leader, um, to stop
and reflect on what has happened.
Yeah.
Right.
And help people, um, to
have this reflection moment.
Um, and, uh, sometimes it's
actually the silence moment.
Like, we, you need, you know, we, we
need to kind of stop and, and hear what
is happening and understand like what is
happening, how it's related to me, right.
Um, and, um, and get, um,
this through examples, right?
So like one example I am, um, you
know, when I'm using a conversation,
let's say I had a lunch with a sales
leader who is leading really big
national team, like 150 people, right?
And the guy is like super
excited about, um, using ai we're
gonna bring the agents, right?
Um, and, um, to give him a little
bit like, you know, sinking, right?
So, you know, I ask him is, uh,
um, how you gonna be manage,
manage your digital employee?
Um, and, and you can see his face.
He was like, what do you mean?
I was like, you talking about that you're
gonna have a hundred agents, they're
gonna be your digital employees, right?
So if they're gonna start
making decisions, who's
accountable for decisions, right?
Um, so, so this, this is
the stop moment, right?
So people need to stop and think about,
about like entire ecosystem, right?
So not just as like, I'm excited
to push this agent to work, right?
But what does it mean?
Between interactions, my physical
employee and digital employee.
So how I'm gonna be looking at
the performance of the digital
versus non-digital, right?
So is it now the chief information
officer becoming Chief hr or Chief
HR becoming chief information, right?
So there is a lot of questions
where we have to, you know, to
think about the mindset, right?
Also, mindset is, um, is being open.
Being open to be challenged, right?
So, you know, this sales leader.
Uh, for him this was
like aha moment, right?
And it was uncomfortable moment, right?
Uh, but, um, you know, he
actually took this moment.
He was like, you know what?
Now I need to go and
really think about it.
Right?
So I, I think the good leadership,
especially like people like myself
and digital roles, we have to create
as many moments as we, as we can and,
and relevant to each person, right?
So relevant to the
salesperson or relevant to.
Um, you know, like, um, somebody,
like a customer in a bank who
actually taking the loan, right?
Um, so mindset is the number,
like a step number one.
Erica Rooney: I love this idea
of, and we talk about it a lot
on the podcast, the aha moments.
Yes.
And we talk about making it safe,
make it personal, make it fun.
And so what I talk find myself
doing is whenever I'm in
different communities of women.
Like, I'm a cheer mom.
I have a 7-year-old daughter.
So when I'm at cheer practice
sitting with all the moms, it's
a very diverse group of women.
I'm like, what are you using AI for?
Which chat tool are you using?
And number one, it's interesting to
me because I do live in the AI bubble
where everybody here is into ai, and
so I assume everyone else is too.
And then I get there and
they're doing nothing with it.
They don't have it on their phone.
And of course I'm flabbergasted by this.
But we get 'em involved.
We get 'em to download it.
I even had one woman and what she does
is she puts the shiplap all over walls.
She's that kind of, uh, woodworker and she
had no idea that this was something that
she could use as a tool, as a solopreneur.
And she's now able to provide mockups
for her customers in seconds before
when she was drawing and designing or
having to invest thousands of dollars
in digital tools to help her do that.
And now as a sole
entrepreneur, she can do it.
Yeah.
And so I think getting people to find
that aha moment when it comes to AI
that is very personal to them is so key.
Elena: Uh, absolutely a
hundred percent, right?
So this is like, you know, certain
mindset you like, find, like what
a, what aha moments is, right?
But now you also mentioned you um, you
actually moving into engage, right?
So engage, and this is
where, um, helping people to
understand, um, how to engage it.
Uh, what you should be sharing,
what you should not be sharing.
Right.
Uh, also interesting that you mentioned
that, um, you have people who don't
have, uh, you know, charge GPT installed
on, on their phone or something.
Right.
But, but the same people, um, they need
to understand that it doesn't matter
they install it or not install it.
AI region flu in every
decision and their life.
So they take a mortgage.
AI is influencing submitting resume.
AI is influencing, watching Netflix.
AI is influencing, right?
So they, in this case, if they
don't take, uh, opportunity
to learn, they are victims.
So they are basically, AI
is pushed on them, right?
And they just accept
whatever is happening, right?
Uh, so what I'm saying is like in
active engagement, being fluent.
Means that you understand what's behind
you, questioning what's behind you.
Ask this question, your mortgage,
you know, like agent, like why, why,
why this type of decision was made?
What is behind, right?
Uh, and yes, you know, try
to, to use the tools as well.
Erica Rooney: And then of
course the continuous learning.
I mean, this is something that is so
rapidly growing, changing and evolving.
Sometimes it annoys me honestly.
'cause I feel like the second I've got.
This mastered a new version comes
out and I'm like, oh man, again.
Yes.
So what are maybe your tips for
staying on top of AI fluency at the
pace because everything's so rapid?
Elena: Uh, yes.
Great question.
And, uh, um, so I don't believe, um,
the new version or the new model,
um, is gonna make the difference.
Okay.
So the difference is
happening in our behaviors.
A difference is happening in
our knowledge, in our ability,
you know, to question, to act.
This is where the difference
can happen, right?
Uh, so maybe I'll give, um, our audience
a little bit technical example, right?
But it's gonna be really relevant, right?
So if we think about, um, the biggest
change which we all have been living
through, um, this is where social came,
uh, where smartphones came, right?
Uh, so when the cloud came.
Uh, so who benefited from all of this?
Right?
And you can think about as like,
oh, you know what, um, the cloud
providers got the most benefits, right?
Amazon got the benefits.
Microsoft got the benefits.
Of course they did.
But the most benefits got
actually companies like Uber.
Because they were able to use the
cheap cloud to create the new models.
So now is, um, the models are
becoming cheaper and cheaper.
So every month, um, there are about
200 new models launched globally.
200 different models launched globally.
Really?
Yes.
Wow.
So again, this model's not
gonna make any difference.
There is.
If there is Uber 2.0.
No, I mean, I'm, I'm really serious.
Right.
And actually, I, I wrote a post
recently on LinkedIn about Uber 2.0.
Okay.
Because I'm, you know, everybody
excited saying like how much, um, uh,
valuation got, uh, somebody who exited,
uh, open AI and now they took, got 2
billion, 5 billion, whatever, right?
Uh, I'm not so much excited about this.
I mean, it's great they are
creating infrastructure, but
I would love to see ER 2.0.
And, and this is the moment, uh, for,
for the companies, for the people, um,
who have the knowledge, uh, to step up
and uh, and start creating this Uber 2.0.
Right.
And I'm already seeing this, right?
So I did have a, uh, quite a lot
of conversation with investors with
private equity, venture capital.
Um, they are looking at, um, at companies
and businesses, uh, who really well
understand, um, like business processes.
Right.
And, uh, if for example, let's say
HR business process, um, is already
outsourced, uh, which means it's really
well documented, uh, so this type of
companies are number one fortech and
they can do this really quickly, right?
So, um, it's not about the model,
it's about your participation,
it's about your knowledge.
So, um, this is why I'm so big
on the human side of, um, ai, um,
because of this example of the Uber.
Yeah, it's out there.
Yeah, right.
It's on one.
Right.
So, but now we don't see yet
this new like, you know, Uber
companies and, and hopefully Uber.
Yeah.
Who knows I'm saying this, right.
No, but, but this means that it's
use the new power, the power of
new technology, uh, to create
the benefits in a different way.
Erica Rooney: Yeah.
Elena: Incredible.
Erica Rooney: So what is one
future skill that you think leaders
aren't paying enough attention
to right now, but they need to?
Elena: So I think I'm a
big believer on a, um,
on a human skill, which basically
on a, on a behavioral skill.
So I think the biggest question,
uh, the biggest one for me is being
curious and asking questions, uh,
and, uh, challenging and shaping.
So I think these are the biggest skills
and, uh, it sounds like really simple.
Um, in reality, and, and this is my,
you know, diagnostic tool is showing we
don't have the skill, we don't develop
the skill, we don't develop the skill
in school, we don't develop in college.
Uh, and, uh, we don't
develop it at work, right?
So, um, there are old leadership
frameworks, um, which exist for, you
know, like 20, 35, whatever years, right?
Um, but this leadership frameworks,
um, do not talk about, um, human
um, relations to technology.
Right.
Uh, in human relations with
technology, there are new dimensions.
We need to think about
Erica Rooney: the curiosity thing.
It's what really I like to harp in on
because we don't, nobody asks questions.
We tend to blindly trust.
Yeah.
And just assume that everyone else
has the right ethical, you know,
decision making skills behind it,
and then they don't, and then we
find ourselves in this huge pickle.
How do you think that we can encourage.
People to start asking more questions.
Elena: Um, so I think we need, um, to
understand where each person is, right?
So this is what I'm personally focusing
on, is to help the people to understand
where you are in your mindset, um,
in your skillset, in your language,
in your leadership, where you are.
Right.
So if you, if we understand where
you are, um, we can almost like
prescribe you like what, what you
need to do, how you can sharp sharpen
your, um, question asking how you can
sharpen, um, in terms of your skills.
So, um, like engagement
with the tools, right?
So I'm big believer in, um, in
personalized approach, right?
So, and um, 70% of this
is not technical approach.
It's really like a
behavioral approach, right?
So taking people through, uh, through,
through the behavioral changes.
Erica Rooney: And we also have
to know what questions to ask.
Yes.
And I think that's where people get
stumped, is they don't know what to ask.
So instead they just ask nothing.
And I always encourage people like, Hey,
if you're stuck, go to AI and ask What
are some ways that I can get more curious?
And it always makes me think
about that leader that asks the
why question like six times.
And you're like, oh my gosh, already.
Yes, but digging down deep to understand
all of that, to get to the mindset that's
really getting at the root of the problem.
And if I'm correct, that's what I'm
hearing you say is we really need to
go all the way into the core Exactly.
Before we can go out.
Elena: Exactly.
We, we need to understand again, where
each person is, where each team is.
Right.
Uh, something interesting.
Like what, um, like my diagnostic is
showing, like, for example, you can see,
um, sometimes overconfidence, right?
So the, the team might say it is
like, oh, you know, we know we have
a tool, we, whatever it is, right?
But overconfidence is also dangerous
because, which means that we, as you said,
blind blindly trusting, we not asking, you
know, not and asking the questions, right?
Um, also to understand, um,
is, um, you know, there, there
are, um, well known aspects of.
Uh, what are dysfunctions?
Like a digital dysfunctions?
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
So for example, um, one of the
core dysfunction is trust, right?
And, uh, if, if we think about
the old way, how we have been
looking in leadership and the trust
is like between people, right?
So if there is no trust in a team,
um, then this team is actually
highly dysfunction, right?
Uh, but now, uh, we are technology, right?
So this is now becoming.
Person to person, person to technology.
Technology to technology, right?
So now we have more complex system.
Right.
And behaviorals are now
becoming way, way more complex.
So we need to, to look at all of
this, um, kind of sides, right?
So how we trust the system, how we
trust each other in this new reality.
Ooh, it all
Erica Rooney: comes down to trust.
I love it.
Elena, thank you so much for joining us.
This is the AI Voice or
Victim podcast, y'all.
We are live at the AI Powered
Women Conference here at.
MIT.
Elena, thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Ika.
Thank you all.
Thanks for joining us
on AI, voice or Victim.
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