Intel has a new CEO! And it's Lip-Bu Tan. We had assumed it would not be Lip-Bu--he was such a clear front-runner that the more time passed the less likely it seemed it would be him... and yet! Bryan and Adam were joined by Reuter's Max Cherney to discuss.
In addition to Bryan Cantrill and Adam Leventhal, our esteemed guest was Max Cherney; we were also joined by Bryan Russett, and Alex Kesling.
Some of the topics we hit on, in the order that we hit them:
- Cooking with Oxide and Friends
- The Oxide John von Neumann bust
- Intel's new CEO plots overhaul of manufacturing and AI operations
- Lip-Bu Tan: Remaking Our Company for the Future
- Intel oneAPI
- Morris Chang: "A very discourteous fellow"
If we got something wrong or missed something, please file a PR! Our next show will likely be on Monday at 5p Pacific Time on our Discord server; stay tuned to our Mastodon feeds for details, or subscribe to this calendar. We'd love to have you join us, as we always love to hear from new speakers!
Creators & Guests
What is Oxide and Friends?
Oxide hosts a weekly Discord show where we discuss a wide range of topics: computer history, startups, Oxide hardware bringup, and other topics du jour. These are the recordings in podcast form.
Join us live (usually Mondays at 5pm PT) https://discord.gg/gcQxNHAKCB
Subscribe to our calendar: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/c_318925f4185aa71c4524d0d6127f31058c9e21f29f017d48a0fca6f564969cd0%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics
Hello, Adam.
Adam Leventhal:Hello, Brian.
Bryan Cantrill:How are you? I'm doing great. How about you? I'm doing well. I I've actually I've got some, some surprise guests here in the litter box.
Adam Leventhal:Each more surprising than the one that preceded it.
Bryan Cantrill:Each more surprising than the last. So, I mean, not necessarily related to our topic today. We'll we'll we'll get into that, in a second. The, but we we've got a a big fan of the pod here. So, Brian Could
Adam Leventhal:be Eddie, but could is wait. Is it Boris Chang?
Bryan Cantrill:It's well, now now you just made it disappointing. Like, now now whatever we say is gonna be disappointing. You know, I felt like I had really good news, and now I mean, you kinda I mean, you kinda ruined Christmas for everybody. I I I don't wanna put too much on you, but this was like the I'll
Adam Leventhal:cut it. I'll cut it later.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. But you you won't be able to cut is the is the deflated emotion that everyone will feel when it's not Morris Chang. So, like, that that that is unedible, unfortunately. We've just you know, like, let's just fold the whole thing up. No.
Bryan Cantrill:I don't have Morris Chang. I still don't have Morris Chang. You know, it's like we're barely out of, like, it in we're still in q one. Okay? I'm working on my stretch goals.
Adam Leventhal:That's good.
Bryan Cantrill:And I I no. I know. I I know it'll be. I'm I'm working on it. No.
Bryan Cantrill:So, we've got, Brian Russet with us. Brian, welcome. Thank you. So, Adam, you may may note Brian. You note Brian every week, whether you realize it or not, because
Adam Leventhal:Oh, Brian From Cooking with Oxide and Friends.
Bryan Cantrill:Cooking with Oxide and Friends.
Adam Leventhal:Yes. My favorite spinoff. I
Bryan Cantrill:think that's that. Okay. It is my favorite spinoff, but do you Okay, Adam, and I actually I know And sorry to speak about you in third person here, Brian. But I I know you feel similar to I do because I often like, I don't eat before. So I often like, we've ended Oxide and Friends.
Bryan Cantrill:We've got an up I haven't eaten. And then I see your post with something delicious, and it gives me complicated feelings, honestly, because I like I'm like, I am now I'm I'm a little hangry right now. I actually, but you so, I mean, you you've been this is a great little tradition you got for yourself. Can you, describe the origin of this a little bit? And you're obviously a I mean, if that if that food is a quarter as tasty as it looks, you're making yourselves Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:Make yourself some really tasty meals.
Bryan Russett:It's it's optimized for the visual Sorry. It's optimized for the visual presentation. So sometimes in the, you know, the heat of the moment, getting it ready in time, it's not always the most easy. It's half as tasty as it cooks. I can promise that.
Bryan Russett:That is great. The origins I I think this just started back when the oxide and friends thing sorry. I'm, like, long time
Bryan Cantrill:Exactly. The microphone's up here. There we go.
Bryan Russett:Yeah. That was back in '22, I think, when this iteration started.
Bryan Cantrill:Or this iteration started in 2022. Adam, when did we start? I don't know when we
Adam Leventhal:This is the fifth season. I think 2020. Twenty '20 '1. Twenty '20 '1.
Bryan Cantrill:Twenty '1. Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan Russett:Yeah. So summer twenty one. Yeah. That's when it was. Just began.
Bryan Russett:There's no, like, amazing origin story here. I just enjoyed listening, and I thought it'd be fun to cook while I did it. And this is sort of sort of early COVID pent up and doing lots of cooking at home and trying new recipes. So, started tweeting it out, and people appreciated it. So I kept going with it.
Bryan Cantrill:That's awesome. And have you always, like, cooked yourself growing up, or is that something you kinda picked up in adulthood? Or No. Is that a pandemic thing? Or how did it
Bryan Russett:I would say it was a it it came out of a sort of shared passion for cooking, at a company I previously cofounded. And then during COVID, just having a lot of time and kinda deep dives further on it. I think early like, everyone was looking for fun things to do over Zoom in the early days of COVID. Yeah. Right.
Bryan Russett:And so I tried to organize friends, agree on a set of recipes, and then all cook together over Zoom and and catch up. So that was, sort of the catalyst for getting getting back into it.
Bryan Cantrill:That is awesome. Well, it, again, it is I don't know. Are you going with a cookbook when you are you have are you recipes? Are you are you are you just So there there's a stack of cookbooks and sometimes
Bryan Russett:there's always some sort of loose theme, I guess. There's also a backlog of about a hundred Instagram, like,
Bryan Cantrill:you know, bookmarks. That's awesome. Yeah.
Bryan Russett:New York Times cooking recipes and everything else. So, it it may look well planned, but it's usually just me frantically running to the grocery store beforehand and, like, deciding last minute what to make. That
Bryan Cantrill:that's awesome. But yeah. And and you're joining me from Alex. Alex, do you do you wanna or do you get to or or do you enjoy any of these meals? Are you at least in the same because you're at least in the same time zone.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. I mean, I I
Alex Kesling:sometimes enjoy them. Brian did a seven fishes dinner this last year for Christmas that was truly insane, but a significant number of the recipes are just he sees a picture on Instagram and then reconstructs
Bryan Cantrill:it conceptually. Wow. That is that is amazing. Hey. Well, it's and it's such a treat to to share it with us again.
Bryan Cantrill:I even though I'm hungry when I look at it, you should know that I it just makes me wanna eat that before.
Bryan Russett:So I appreciate that that you're hungry. And if it makes me feel any better, my wife is also usually very hungry. Oh, wow. As I'm taking photos of the I I I'm right. We're on East Coast time.
Bryan Russett:So it's like
Bryan Cantrill:And and and you're like, look. Cameron's gotta eat first. And yeah. The the
Bryan Russett:I I she she understands the importance of this, this this cultural
Bryan Cantrill:And so, Adam, not only is Brian is truly a super fan because not only at at does he cook these delicious meals when he goes to the docks, I had friends. He also and I didn't realize this until he was in the office now. He has given us an artifact that we have had since damn near the beginning of oxide that is up in our in in our hall of fame. Do you
Adam Leventhal:Is I'm I'm gonna guess, but I feel like this is this is like Morris Chang again where, like, if I get it wrong, then I'm so I'm gonna guess either the NIMH game or the John von Neumann three d print.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Yes. You have gotten it. You have hedged your bets just a little bit, and it is the John von Neumann three d printed bust of John Von Neumann with the John Von Neumann and oxide green. And, Brian, when you sent that to us, that was so exhilarating.
Bryan Cantrill:I it it the we were deeply, deeply, deeply appreciative. And because I mean, I mean, obviously, that's coming off of a close listen to me pining for a bust Yeah. Of John Von der Meant. So what's the story of that thing? Because that was that was not I mean, Adam, this may I mean, may.
Bryan Cantrill:I don't I I this may rival the image the the physics simulation that you had to do for the image for oxide friends. I mean, obviously, nothing can actually rival that, but, you know Yeah. It's not simple to do.
Bryan Russett:Yeah. I mean, this goes all the way all the way back to the on the metal podcast days. That was just a big deal for me. Like, I loved listening to that podcast. And, yeah, it was just one of those side rants that you went on just talking about Johnny Von Neumann and how, like, you know, you should have a a statue of Johnny Von Neumann in your office.
Bryan Russett:And it just sort of planted a seed. There's probably a note somewhere in Evernote or something that, you know, make, you know
Bryan Cantrill:Make make John Von Neumann based.
Bryan Russett:Make John Von Neumann based.
Bryan Cantrill:Adam take notes like this. Adam never takes notes like this. I don't Adam Adam's notes are all, like, still not Morris Chang, still not Morris Chang, still not Morris Chang. You know? I mean, it's all very negative, honestly.
Bryan Cantrill:On Adam. Yeah. Exactly. Would you mind?
Bryan Russett:That's right. Yeah. So, the the seed was planted, and it was one of those random
Bryan Cantrill:to dos that actually just couldn't get off my mind. And so
Bryan Russett:I was just very stubborn and kept thinking about how to do this. And, yeah, eventually, I just said, okay. Let let's figure out how to do this, and it began with a Google search for statues of John Von Neumann. I I assumed there'd be one somewhere in proximity I could go to and take some photos. It turned out that the only fully formed bust or statue of Don Buenovelin I could find was in Budapest.
Bryan Russett:Yeah. Interesting. So I'd, jumped over to Fiverr, and I found a tour guide in Budapest who was willing to, take my crazy request to go to this statue and take
Bryan Cantrill:Oh my god.
Bryan Russett:And they a hundred photos from all different angles.
Bryan Cantrill:And then is he like this is like, look. This guy is I mean, clearly, this is like pornography of some sort that this guy this guy's obviously got some cake. I mean, it's like there's just no way this is above board. This is not it has some, like, crazy story about making a bus for a podcast, but, obviously, that's not it.
Bryan Russett:It's hard to tell what what what she was thinking when I sent this request, but she was amazing. That was by far the, like, the best Fiverr experience I've ever had. Oh my god. That worked out great. Then I I took the the photos and I used, Meshroom, like, just a photogrammetry software to try to reconstruct something, and I got something working well enough that I felt like, okay, this is good, but I needed a little more professional help.
Bryan Russett:So back to Fiverr. I found somebody there Oh my god. To sort of produce a better, like, you know, three d mesh of of the statue from from the photos that I had. Then, back into, Blender on my end to sort of create the proper base statue and, you know, carve out the special
Bryan Cantrill:Oh my god.
Bryan Russett:Compute, you know, the the the the lettering at the bottom. And then, back on Fiverr, looking for three d printers who were willing to do a two color three d print because, obviously, it had to be the oxide The
Bryan Cantrill:the oxide colors. Man after our my own heart.
Bryan Russett:Yes. That that, I think, of of all three, that actually took the most amount of time in bartering with different people to find Really?
Bryan Cantrill:To find someone who could do the print? Yep. Wow.
Bryan Russett:So, trial run, got that sent to me. That one's still back at back home. A little smaller version of it, about half size half size to the, the end product. It looks great. So printed out the full one, wrote that wrote up a little
Bryan Cantrill:note We got that note. I know. Sent it
Bryan Russett:over to you guys and kinda just, you know, I I I was hopeful that you would find it and appreciate it. But in that moment, I feel like I had closed the loop. I had sort of Yeah. Said my you know, I I feel like I'd kind of expressed the the emotional, package that I wanted to deliver, and and I would just feel very happy in that moment. And then I think it it it was two or three months later, I think, that, actually, you know, I got just, like, a Twitter message from you.
Bryan Russett:Like, did did you send this? And has and, so yeah. No. I was I was really happy that that I made it here and that it was appreciated by the by the team.
Bryan Cantrill:Oh, extraordinary. And and I just very, very, very deeply appreciated. I mean, I I I you know, and I you know, we've always said that that that that stuff is so deeply meaningful, you know. I mean and as a as a company, like, we've we've never wanted to ever kinda take that for granted because the fact that you're I I mean, you're going to take your I mean, look at the lengths you're going to to kind of appreciate to to express your own appreciation. Obviously, that is I we just can't thank you enough.
Bryan Cantrill:That that is really, really great. And, thank you so much again for inspiring us with the meals and for joining us in the studio. This is great.
Bryan Russett:Yeah. I I this all happened very quickly. I'm, very I'm still a little bit, starstruck here. But yeah. No.
Bryan Russett:Thank thank you for having us. This is this is really awesome. Alright.
Bryan Cantrill:So, Adam, it's not Morris Chang, but I really think it's a slow second. I mean,
Adam Leventhal:I I I I I mean, maybe maybe even tops Morris Chang.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Exactly. I don't know. Morris Chang, like, great getting on Fiverr to make an accurate bus of John von Neumann? Like
Adam Leventhal:Never seen that Morris Chang cook a thing. A thing.
Bryan Cantrill:A thing. Just one thing. Yeah. Just exactly.
Adam Leventhal:Thing Morris Chang. What can you cook?
Bryan Cantrill:Wow. We have really turned on Morris Chang. You know? We went Morris, you know, I was actually considering kinda joining you guys tonight to know. Awesome, frankly.
Bryan Cantrill:There's clearly some very negative dynamic going on with Brian's stretch goals and, you know, so
Adam Leventhal:As as Morris Chang, recently said of Pat Gelsinger, I think he would find us very discourteous, which is fair.
Bryan Cantrill:Oh, god. That was such a dagger. That was such a do you do you wanna describe a bit of the context behind that? Because that's actually a good segue into where we are here with with Lip Bu Tan.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. The the discourteously discourteous segue. So, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I I read was, interview with Mars Chang where he was describing, his relationship with Intel, and he he started god. He just he he he's just such a killer. He was He's a killer.
Adam Leventhal:Said, like, I've known every CEO of Intel, which just right there, I just feels like sets up the hammer drop so hard. And he talks about how we met Pat Gelsinger when he was the the CEO of VMware and how how he didn't know what VMware was. I mean, hats off to Marsha Jiang for not knowing what VMware was.
Bryan Cantrill:Also, like, what what an alpha move. It's like, I
Adam Leventhal:don't know. VMware. Oh, it's a it's
Bryan Cantrill:Like, is that a is that a website or something? I don't know. I just don't know what that Veerily. Is that like Shareware? I've heard Shareware.
Bryan Cantrill:Is that what
Adam Leventhal:you're saying? Subtrillion dollar company? Okay. Tell me about it. Why don't I interesting.
Bryan Cantrill:You know, there's so many of those. I just wanna keep track of them, honestly. I'm Morris Chang. Right. Who
Adam Leventhal:do When I'm cooking
Bryan Cantrill:for myself and making busts, which I do. Thank you very much.
Adam Leventhal:Oh, he does. Thank you for assuming I did it, but I do. Exactly. But then describing how he was very impressed, with with Pat in in his articulation of this subtrillion dollar company and and what it just allegedly does. But then as, you're taking some umbrances with the comments that Gelsinger made, in particular, Gelsinger describing, you know, folks, that that Taiwan was in a precarious position and people maybe not wanting to put all their eggs in one basket and just simply
Bryan Cantrill:What is this? I mean, it's too dirty thing to say, honestly. I I I and we talked about this before that, I mean, I I hated this about Gelsinger. The wrapping himself in the flag, I I it's so fear based, and it's just, like, it's dirty to imply that, like, I don't know. I'm saying, like, my competitor, the one that's being in the marketplace, I don't know, could be nuked.
Bryan Cantrill:That's I'm just people are saying. Just think,
Adam Leventhal:you know Exactly. The implication. Because if you're saying, wait, Pat, what is it specifically that you're saying? It's like, well, I'm saying that they might be invaded by China and taken hostage. It's like, that's what you're saying?
Adam Leventhal:Really? Okay. Wow. Jeez. But that is certainly what he's implying.
Adam Leventhal:And so I I love that the summary that Marshaeing come up came up with was very discourteous.
Bryan Cantrill:Very discourteous. That's great. So, Gelsinger is Gelsinger is out. We obviously did our our episode on on that, and then I made my prediction, at the beginning of the year that they were they would have the co CEOs for the entire year. I'm obviously a little disappointed that that prediction is wrong for now.
Bryan Cantrill:I also predicted that they would name a CEO that they would walk back. I think it's like, I'm still in stoppage time. Like, it I I think they could still walk Lip Bu. I'd I'd be the one.
Adam Leventhal:How how and we talked about Lip Bu. You talked about Lip Bu. You kind
Bryan Cantrill:of Lip Bu was to me the obvious candidate. Right. Lip Bu and and just I should say in in kind of full disclosure, so, we know Lip Bu. We pitched Lip Bu on oxide. Lip Bu was very bullish about oxide, is very bullish about oxide, and I pitched him at Walden.
Bryan Cantrill:We know a bunch of other folks at Walden, and it was one of those that, like, just didn't quite come together in the season. There are various reasons that he passed, but not but, you know, not for there are people that there are good reasons and bad reasons to pass on oxide. I would say he passed for good reasons, and, was I came away really impressed. Former CEO of Cadence, and I felt very sharp, very engaged, very connected, very, very, very connected, in the industry. So I, of course, thought he was the right person for the job.
Bryan Cantrill:Right. But I think even on that episode, even, like, the day that Gelsinger had been axed, I think we were saying that one, Lip Bu wasn't gonna take it, and two, if Lip Bu wanted it, he would have it. Because he like, why would you ax Gelsinger without having a a plan? And if Lip Bu wanted it, you would just be announcing Lip Bu as the CEO. So I
Bryan Cantrill:was just
Bryan Cantrill:like, that's proof positive that Lip Bu doesn't that doesn't want it. And then as time passes, Lip Bu clearly doesn't want it because he is the obvious front runner. And the you know, I was talking with someone just the other week who, was at Intel for many, many years and knows Intel extremely well. And, I, you know, I were talking about Lip Bu. He's like, no.
Bryan Cantrill:I think that if Lip Bu wanted it, you would know that Lip Bu wanted it because he'd already have it. Right? And and
Adam Leventhal:and Lip Bu had been in the running with Gelsinger. He Lip Bu had been on the board of Intel, made a plan, a turnaround plan that he brought to the board. The board declined to follow-up on it, and Lip Bu then resigned after that.
Bryan Cantrill:From the board. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So all
Adam Leventhal:of those signs say, you know, if if either he doesn't want it or if he does want it, then he would be at, but I guess we're wrong on the timing, certainly.
Bryan Cantrill:Definitely wrong on the timing, and I was surprised. I mean, I I was absolutely surprised that the, and the the the this is, probably a a good segue to to Max. So, Max Jernay is a is a reporter at Reuters, and, Max has been on this story, has written a bunch of stories about Intel, and the I Max did did Intel themselves break this news? I'm not sure I I don't know that this was, I feel like Intel broke the news themselves, but you were certainly, your your story was up there very, very quickly.
Max Cherney:Well, hey. Thanks for thanks for having me on the Discord. But yeah. Until, they I think they were worried it was gonna leak, but it did not. And they put it out after the market closed on Wednesday.
Max Cherney:I was, having lunch, actually, and my editor called me. Oh, wow. He said he said let Bu is CEO. So there we have it.
Bryan Cantrill:Get to work. Right. And and, Max, were you as I mean, were you as surprised that that it was Lip Bu? I mean, obviously, it's not surprising the abstract that's Lip Bu, but given the timing and the co CEOs and everything else, I thought it was a surprise. What did you think?
Max Cherney:I mean, we we reported that Lip Bu was on the shortlist, shortly after Pat was resigned or was was let go. So in that sense, I mean, it wasn't a surprise. You know, the shortlist that we published included Matt Murphy as well. And, you know, so we knew that the board was looking at him. And and, you know, given the what I would call the there there aren't it's a it's a it's a like, when I said shortlist, I mean, you know, not to be silly about it, but there there really is a shortlist of people who could who could plausibly run Intel.
Max Cherney:Most of them have jobs at chip companies at the moment. Most of this is, like, Lisa Su, for example, or, you know, is is somebody who, you know, I would who could, you know, theoretically do that kind of thing. I'm not saying she was on the shortlist. I'm just saying she theoretically could do the job. So there there aren't a ton of people, and and and Lip Bu is is one of those one of those people.
Max Cherney:So, no, I I wasn't I wasn't super surprised. I mean, the timing was surprising. Like, I didn't expect it on Wednesday. But but, you know, that's the you know, they were gonna I think they were they were trying very, very hard to make sure they could tell they could they could break they didn't want it to leak, basically.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Interesting. Well, and this gets to, like, a question that we've definitely got I've definitely got is what happened between December 8 and Wednesday? Because that like, it just again, Lip Bu is so obvious with respect to being the CEO that there is absolutely a story there, I think. And, Max, I don't know, something that that you're looking into.
Bryan Cantrill:Adam, I've I've got my own I've uninformed guests, but, I you gotta think this is Lip Bu negotiating with the board. Because, I mean, this guy's left the board. Right? So he clearly could not affect the change he wanted to affect while he was on the board. He, for sure, has left some people on the board that he thinks are jackasses.
Bryan Cantrill:And he I mean, I think one I mean, because if you look at, like, his his pay package I mean, the guy's already, like, rich, and his pay package is, like, not is what you would expect. It's like a that's actually I think it's a maybe even the same salary as the the current co CEO. Is she still gonna be the the the the CEO of of Intel product, by the way? I mean, keep an eye on that.
Max Cherney:Yeah. As as far as I'm aware, I I I'm I'm not sure about her her formal title, but I think she's keeping this I I'm pretty sure she is keeping the CEO title and is gonna continue to, yeah, continue to run product. Keeping the whole, though. I will let you you and Adam speculate on what happened in the last, since December. We have not reported any we have not reported anything about it.
Max Cherney:So I'm kind of limited in what I can discuss in terms of, yeah, what what has occurred.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Well, let us who have no actually ethical responsibilities just just make things up. And, I mean, I don't I don't know. What's your take on on the reason for the delay?
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. I I'm I'm stumped, Brian. I'm I'm looking forward to hear your your wild takes.
Bryan Cantrill:Well, I think he so I think the guy I mean, he was so first of all, he is the first this is amazing, actually, to me. This guy's this is the first outsider to run Intel in their history. Wow. Yes. Isn't that crazy?
Adam Leventhal:So Super crazy.
Bryan Cantrill:So I think that he was like, look, you want me to have the job. I'm I'm gonna lay out for like, a bunch of things have to change. And I I mean, I think you wanna keep a sharp eye on the Intel board composition, because I think that that, like, I think if you see big changes there, that is an indicator that they're and I think because I I think Andy Bryant is Andy Bryant still on the board, Max? Surely you can comment on that. That's a factual question.
Max Cherney:I I don't have the board the entire list of the board of directors off
Bryan Cantrill:the top of
Max Cherney:my head. I'm sorry. I'd I'd it so it's possible.
Bryan Cantrill:Listen. If that if that's a redirect, it's very effective. E,
Max Cherney:No. I really just I I am limited. I have to remember all the Intel code names too. Silver Lake and Panther Lake and Clear clear Clearwater Forest. So I, you know, I only have so much RAM in my head to for for all the board games too.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Fair enough. But I I think it's gonna be interesting to watch the board composition to see if I mean, where were the I mean, at some level, there is a board dispute that resulted in Lip Bu's departure. And I think you're not gonna return without cleaning that dispute up one way or the other. Maybe that is kind of informally, like, look, we all listen, like, we all agree we're not gonna listen to that that person anymore.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, yes. We're Bozo has not carried the day. We're not gonna listen to Bozo, or it's gonna be formalized. Like, listen. We need to we need to clean out the board here because we I actually need to have the freedom to work to to save the company.
Bryan Cantrill:So I think that the that the the back and forth, my guess is, again, this is completely uninformed, but I think it is all about not control per se, but latitude and what what he wanted to go do and the knowledge that he would need board support to go do it.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. That's a great guess. And it it may also be that, you know, watch the space. And if it's, you know, six months to the day later, we see a couple of people moving off the board for family reasons or whatever. Totally.
Adam Leventhal:It may be traceable back to whatever conversations have been happening in the last few weeks.
Bryan Cantrill:That's exactly right. And then, I'm sure it'll happen very quietly. He doesn't wanna do it in a way that's disruptive. But I think that he I it's my guess is that that this is him getting the latitude to do what he needs to do. And I think I mean and so, Max, you've got a great piece that dropped this morning, on some of those plans.
Bryan Cantrill:Do you wanna talk about some of the things that you because I Max, I would love to to me, the AMD bit in particular, I had not read anywhere else, and I wondered if that was if that was new reported.
Max Cherney:Well, I'm sorry. Which? That AMD was interested in
Bryan Cantrill:Max, like, did I write that down? I meant to, like, cut that out. Was that I actually put it this no. No. This is that that that AMD was evaluating,
Max Cherney:the foundry. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:H and a. Yeah.
Max Cherney:Yeah. We actually published that, a couple weeks ago as well.
Bryan Cantrill:Oh, that's you. Okay.
Max Cherney:Interesting. Yeah. We're, Broadcom and NVIDIA were are running tests, like test chips, test wafers, excuse me, through the fabs. Not not entire chip designs, just, you know, the the sort of small blocks of IP that, that chip companies often wanna make sure will actually function. These chips like, the the test chips I'm talking about can be, like, the size of a grain of rice.
Max Cherney:Like, they're they're tiny. They they can be tiny because it's just, you know, do the transistors work? Are they at the right, you know, power level, etcetera etcetera. So AMD, we have not learned that they're they're testing chips, but we do know that they're evaluating evaluating the process. And and to your to your point about Lip Bu's mandate, like, I don't I'm not gonna speculate on the what might happen at the board level or or not.
Max Cherney:But from what we reported, today, he has a pretty big like, he wants to make some big changes to the company. You know, as we've we said, he's going to evaluate, potential further staff cuts. He's going to you know? And and we've reported before that he he thinks that Intel's bureaucracy is bloated and and the company and especially the middle management layer. Like, he has a lot of trouble with that.
Max Cherney:So he he wants to restart the company's AI program, which is, you know I mean, the, you know, the the current two co CEOs mothballed the the last effort, and now it's, it's it was called Falcon Shores, and they're gonna use it as an internal test chip. So, I mean, I don't think we're gonna see any results for, you know, at least two years until 2027, but he he you know, Lip Bu is invested in, I don't know, how many AI companies at this point and has a very sophisticated knowledge from what people tell us of the and I'm sure, Brian, you you know firsthand. He has a sophisticated knowledge of of the end of the, you know, AI in general. So, I would expect, a a, you know, up up a some kind of coherent plan there because Intel really has has not had one. So those those are a few of, like, the sort of big sort of big picture things that that he's planning.
Max Cherney:He's also gonna spend a lot of time on on the foundry. And Yeah. You know, he he needs he needs we we can't at at Reuters, we have trouble saying, process design kit, the that that word because our readers are are a little you know, it gets too complicated for them. But, you know, he that you know, that's an important thing that that, that any any foundry has to have. Right?
Max Cherney:And that's sort of part and parcel with what we described as customer service. So I think he's he's gonna really try to reshape the foundry's, customer service sort of capabilities, and and that's not literally just meaning, you know, calling their customers on the phone. There's there's lots of sort of technical steps there too. And he's gonna go out you know, Lip Bu is a very well connected person. I think this is I think we documented that last week, and everybody knows it in the industry.
Max Cherney:So I think he's gonna, you know, he's gonna go out and try to win some big customers. I mean, I think two or three big customers are enough to keep enough to enough to keep Intel foundry revenue at a at a at a level where it's it becomes, you know, a a plausible business in the future. Because right right now, I mean, Intel for the first time since 1986, Intel lost $19,000,000,000, in 2024. They've they've never lost. And and in in in '86, it's it's it's really interesting.
Max Cherney:Eighty six, it was part of the their transition from memory to logic chips, which was incredibly expensive. It involved retrofitting all their factories at the time, and there was a little bit of a there's a minor mutiny too, apparently, when they you know, from for some of the staff workers who didn't wanna make logic chips. So just to put it I'm trying to put it in a little bit of historical historic perspective in the sense that, like, a $19,000,000,000 loss for Intel is incredibly unusual, and a lot of that is because of their capital spending. They're they're spending lots of enormous amounts of cash on their factory construction and new tools and the high NA tools and all that sort of thing. And, you know, the you know, they they need to start generating revenue to to pay for all those costs.
Max Cherney:So, that's that's where the big customers come in and sort of lip booze, thinking, at least according to the people that, that we spoke with.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. And I thought I think well, first of all, I mean, you're you're right. I think I heard it. Ian Cutras had it at the commentary when and, when this news dropped, when they were kind of on a on a live podcast and said, you know, Intel's gonna have a c a CEO who knows what a PDK is, which I do think is important. I think that they, definitely, obviously understands that part of
Adam Leventhal:the business. I think
Bryan Cantrill:the other thing that I I thought was really interesting about your piece is that you had a source, Max, that indicated that Lip Bu expressed frustration with the company's culture. And, I mean, my belief is in the in in the piece that I wrote about Gelsinger being the being wrong for the job, the problem was that Intel had and has an acute cultural problem. And you had to have someone who's gonna come in who was going to address that cultural problem. And it sounds like Lip Bu wants to take that on. So we're we're in addition to taking on TSMC, NVIDIA, and AMD, which is who he's trying to compete with, he's also gonna compete with the ghosts of Intel's past in terms of really reforming the culture.
Bryan Cantrill:And that may be his toughest job. I don't know. I mean, I think it's, it is really hard to change a culture, and I think that, you know, I'd I call this intel exceptionalism. Intel has a very deeply held sense of a of its own exceptionalism, and that's really dangerous for a company that's losing $19,000,000,000 a year.
Adam Leventhal:And
Bryan Cantrill:I think it it's part of why, you know, you you had a, was it an analyst who said that Gelsinger was being too nice with his Oh, yeah.
Max Cherney:We quoted Dylan Dylan Patel, a a very, very well respected and knowledgeable, semiconductor expert. Yeah. He yeah. He said Gelsinger was was Pat was being too nice, and, you know, there were there were people he should've laid off, the the the middle blank. Again, it's this middle management layer.
Max Cherney:I think it's it's been very well documented at least by by by a lot of people that that's an issue. I I I mean, I I agree, certainly about the about the culture. You know, Brian, like, that's you know, you're I'm not this is me this is me speculating on about Libbu's particular plans, but just in general
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah.
Max Cherney:About changing culture, you know, at least in my own organ the organizations I've worked for. I mean, that kind of thing just doesn't happen overnight. Like, I I'm I'm I'm it's and it's and it's incredibly difficult to enact top down culture. I mean, Intel still got a 9,000 employees. I mean, that's like an entire it's like a city.
Max Cherney:It's our little town. I mean, it's it's and how do you get how do you get what even if you make a very clear directive or even if there's some, you know, you know, some incredibly charismatic leader, like, how do you filter that charisma and those ideas down to all those people? And you're certainly not gonna be able to do it quickly. You know, it's it's gonna take time. And and I and I think that's I think that's something that, at least, you know, people outside the chip industry often forget that the chip business really does take a long time.
Max Cherney:And I would expect, like, everything literally everything does. I mean or almost everything. So, I mean, I I I think my my suspicion is that, you know, that this is a multi year, you know, many year plan. I mean, Lipoo spent, what was it, thirteen years at Cadence turning it around? I mean, if that gives you some idea of the sort of timelines that this guy thinks in, I mean, I think that should be a blueprint.
Max Cherney:Like, I would you know, and he did that he did that successfully at Cadence. Like, Cadence is now, you know, a a a a big competitor to to Synopsys. So, I I think that's sort of worth keeping on. But but, Brett, I I certainly agree. I think I think changing a company an entire company's culture of that size, I think, is gonna be very challenging and many geographies too.
Max Cherney:I mean, Intel operates in Asia. They operate in in Israel and in Ireland and in in The US. I mean, in Puerto Rico, I think. Like, they're they're they're they operate all over the place. So, yeah.
Max Cherney:So I I agree.
Bryan Cantrill:Well and you need to do it in a way that doesn't create a fear based culture, which which is gonna be challenging because you you you need to eliminate a a a bunch of layers here. Now I I can tell you, you know, it's funny, you know, I looking at some of the reactions to to your piece and some of the other things that he has said about the need to eliminate middle management. And, you know, engineers have kind of a a a a predisposition to not trusting executive management. And I definitely saw some some commentary online, be like, oh, like, who's this jack hole? He's gonna come in and, like, oh, you're gonna cut middle management.
Bryan Cantrill:Alright. Let's give this guy a chance, maybe. I think maybe we're you know? Let's, because I think that the the the the real problem, not that middle management is the root of all evil, but, I mean, in that, I'm sure
Adam Leventhal:But you're you're you're too sure it's raising questions.
Bryan Cantrill:Exactly. Like, if you really forced me to think of an evil that middleman is not the burden, I'm like, I'm sure I could. I I can't do it right now, but I'm sure, like, you can give me some time. Spot. The but I think that there is a real danger when you kinda come into this extent power structure and the you know, like, okay.
Bryan Cantrill:We need to cut people. So, hey, executive team, we need to cut people. Like, okay. Well, they're gonna all go to and this kinda it's it's gonna kind of go through this it's gonna ripple through this kind of gooey fat about the need to cut people. And what I have always found, and I I dare say most engineers have found, is that these things that these reductions in force are often you cut exactly the wrong people.
Bryan Cantrill:You cut, oh, we're gonna eliminate every college hire. We're gonna eliminate every college hire. It's like, well, congratulations. You've just eliminated the cheapest people we have and the most promising, by the way, and the ones that were the future of the company. And so, you know, kind of slow clap for that.
Bryan Cantrill:And the emphasis is on heads, not on dollars. And I you know, we had a reduction in force that that we had an investor. This is a previous company, and he took out a spreadsheet sorted by salary. He's like, I don't wanna talk about organizational structure. I wanna sort this by salary, and I wanna know what does this person do, what does this person do?
Bryan Cantrill:And I'm like, I like this guy. I like the I like the way and that's what you need to do because you need to realize that, like, oh, nine of these college hires is this one senior director? Alright. Like, a senior director? Like, what what you know, you got the senior director has got, got, you know, two directors reporting to them, and then and they all report into a VP of special projects because everyone's been afraid to get it was like, okay.
Bryan Cantrill:And that I feel and I I don't wanna be overly reductive about it, but, well, let's just be overly reductive about it, actually. But I I mean, I know folks that are over there that have given up on Intel, that are still employed by Intel, and they're like, well, I'm just gonna be wait to get fired. It's like, alright, well, let's okay, let's get get that show on the road. And the and people who are at, like, at the executive ranks. And I mean, to me, it's gross because it's like, you know, you're actually pulling down a lot of you're pulling down a pretty huge salary.
Bryan Cantrill:And if you're that disaffected, like, you owe it to the company to leave.
Adam Leventhal:So, Brian, Brian, I I agree with you in most part, but but I think also absent some clear direction, it may be like I can kill myself trying to make something happen here, but I don't have confidence that the executive leadership is gonna follow through or that it's gonna match. You know, that that kind of idleness, I agree, is a little gross. And, it can it can feel like you're in such a desperate situation that, like, you know, nose to the grindstone stuff is gonna be in some ways counterproductive. You know, you can Yeah. That's right.
Adam Leventhal:Work work your butt off to try to really create some initiative Thing is gonna be valuable. But you've already seen that executive leadership is so arbitrary that, you know, like, we we saw with the, with the barefoot acquisition that this promising organization gets gets plowed under for bad reasons. And I'm sure for the executives involved, that's very disheartening.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. And I think you're right. And I think that, like, you need to not then this is where the delicate balance is, where, like, you can't tip it into fear, and you've gotta get people out of short term thinking. Max, just to your point that this all this stuff takes a while. So you you need to get people thinking long term again and getting kind of excited about what they can go do and getting the getting people out of their way.
Bryan Cantrill:And get and then also at the same time, like, you want to on the one hand, you wanna become a fear based culture. On the on the other hand, you you do need to instill a sense that, like, we do not have an unalienable right to survive. And the company is so far away from where it was under Andy Grove, under certainly under under Bob Noyes, under under Gordon Moore. It's like, the company has drifted so far. And, actually, I've got some on that note.
Bryan Cantrill:By the way, Adam, I've got some some books to recommend. Exactly. It's like, this is not books in the box. We can't do I don't know. We're we're gonna do intel books in the box.
Adam Leventhal:Intel reading list. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:Intel reading list. So, Ed, Max, this is really for you because I wanna we're really trying to convince Max. This is all, like, this is really just an attempt to get Max to write the canonical book on Intel because this book is gonna be it is gonna need to be written. But, a very good book, and I cannot figure out who recommended it to me. And I think I think this person is here who recommended it to me.
Bryan Cantrill:Maybe Ian. I'm not sure. The Pentium Chronicles by Bob Colwell. So Bob Colwell, you might recall, wrote the the my one of my, like, the all time favorite papers on, on the the on the APX, and the the this is the performance impacts of the the APX four thirty two, performance artifacts of the APX four thirty two, whatever it is. He wrote a just an unbelievably great paper.
Bryan Cantrill:So Bob Colwell was at, at Intel, for the development of Pentium Pro. And the Pentium Chronicles is, it's it's the the book is, like, it's kinda like, actually, it's got a weird form factor, in that it's, like, I don't even know what it is. It's, like, not eight and a half by 11. It's, like, like, seven by 10 or something. It's just, like, it's it it it it's got, like, the it's got, like, the the the the, like, the dynamic of, like, like a workbook that you would have in, like, math class.
Bryan Cantrill:It's kinda weird. But the book is good. And it's kind of a collection of things that, you know, things that nuggets of wisdom that he'd accrued at at Intel, and it really, and then he ultimately leaves Intel because of its cultural problems. And I think this is a good cultural reader of the slipping some of the early warning signs. And this is, like, still long before Intel had, like, outside success in the early twenty ten.
Bryan Cantrill:So, like, there was still a lot of success ahead of Intel after he left, but it's a it's a good, it's a very good book. So, I definitely recommend that one. The, the other one is, is Slingshot by Hector Ruiz. Max, have you read this? Have you have you read that?
Max Cherney:I have not. No. I'm I haven't read either one.
Bryan Cantrill:Okay. So do you know who Hector Ruiz is? Hector Ruiz, really interesting guy. So this is the former CEO of AMD. So he was a CEO of AMD during a really kind of pivotal time.
Bryan Cantrill:And it it this is him telling his own story, so you always have to be like you know, you you have to always have to put some asterisks on it. But, you know, a little bit of a how I won the war. But, his story is his his first of all, his personal story is incredible, and grew up in in poverty in Mexico and went to school in I was able to go to high school in Texas, became the valedictorian of his high school, went to the University of Texas at Austin, went to Motorola, then from Motorola, went to Intel. And so a really kind of extraordinary personal story, but the, the the his story at AMD and the, the the the reference of slingshot is the the slingshot that David had against Goliath, when they decide to litigate against Intel. And this is where they wanna get out from underneath the the agreement they had with Intel, which was basically gonna prevent them from outsourcing their fab, which is kinda crazy.
Adam Leventhal:And this is the 86 license?
Bryan Cantrill:This is the 86 license. And, good book. Well written. I mean, they they wrote it with with a, kinda co wrote it with someone who, it's so it was, I think, a good idea, like, it make these things well written, but it's a it's a well written book, and definitely helpful. And in particular, this is kind of covering the Craig Barrett and Paul Ocellini, which okay.
Bryan Cantrill:We now learned like, Paul Ocellini, I felt a little bit bad because I thought we so much to ask Paul Ocellini what he thought because what Craig Barrett was weighing in on what Intel should do. And I'm like, why not ask Paul Ocellini because Paul Ocellini is dead? And I felt a little bit bad. But then I'm, like, reading some of the things that Paul Solini sent to Hector Ruiz. I'm like, well, now I'm feeling
Max Cherney:less bad. I don't know.
Bryan Cantrill:I'm kind of a jerk. But both Craig Barrett and Paul Solini I mean, Intel was really trying to shove AMD around. And, I mean, some of the because the all these emails are part of the the the case. And, the, the the the emails are just, like, very damning. And this is, like, a company that is, like, this company is in danger of if this company loses its way, it's gonna be very hard to correct because these guys obviously, have believe very strongly in their own exceptionalism.
Bryan Cantrill:So the roots of this cultural problem go back deep is what I'm trying to say.
Max Cherney:Hey. I was I was gonna ask you've got you two a question. It's I I can't I can't speculate, but I'm happy to hear what you both of you think about what's gonna what what Intel is gonna do with its founder business.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, do you know,
Max Cherney:I I think that's one of the most looming questions. For the time being, it's it you know, while the company is pregnant with Panther Lake, it's forthcoming PC chip, it looks like it's gonna need, it's gonna have to hang on to them for for, you know, for the for the moment. But in the longer run, I think everybody wants to know the answer to that question. So what what do you guys think? Do you think it's a they should split it, not split it?
Max Cherney:Why? Why not?
Bryan Cantrill:I think if they were to keep it inside of Intel, their only chance was with Libbu at the helm of the combined company. So
Adam Leventhal:What is that?
Bryan Cantrill:I just think you really needed someone who understands kind of all side if you wanna keep the design side and, say, the AI side of the house and this fabrication piece, you need someone who really understands all of those pieces. And I just struggle to think of other folks in the industry. The other thing about Libbu that is really interesting is he's a venture capitalist as well. You know, I mean, he's got kind of a VC with an asterisk on it because, you know, he's so technical, but that gives him a fundamentally different view of the industry. And I I think that without I mean, I I saw and, Max, you must have I'm sure also, over the last couple of months, I had to have had various people DM me people who were like, oh, I've got it on, like, Hotword, like, this is the candidate for the CEO job.
Bryan Cantrill:And you look at the candidate, and you're like, oh, if they name this person as the CEO, like, yeah, that will be its own that will be its own punishment. Like, that that this is not gonna go there were the the the the candidates that I saw are would like, this is not gonna go over well. These are the same p same kind of bio of someone who was at Intel for, you know, eight thousand years and then has has left in the last thirty six months to go have a effectively an upper level exec, but not CEO position in another public company. And and there were, like, there are a bunch of these people in this category. I'm like, you name one of these turkeys to be CEO, and it's gonna be I I the the company can't stay together.
Bryan Cantrill:But, you know what I would I would liken it to I would liken it to IBM and IBM before Gerstner. And, Max, are you you're probably too young for IBM before Gerstner's then. I'm I'm really dating myself here.
Max Cherney:I yeah. I don't know much about IBM's corporate history, just in general. I mean, I'm much better on chips.
Adam Leventhal:I know. Yeah.
Max Cherney:You know, than and and many of many things happen I know about with Chip.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. No. It's not you. I we're just so goddamn old. So okay.
Bryan Cantrill:So a little history on IBM. It was a foregone conclusion that IBM was gonna have to be broken up. There was just so this is, John Akers playing the role of Pat Gelsinger at IBM, and this is in the early nineties. And everyone believes that IBM has to be broken up, and the next CEO is just gonna be the one to actually do the job and actually get out the hatchet and go to work. And, and Gerstner came in and actually found a totally different avenue for IBM, namely IBM Global Services, and and moving the company into ProServe.
Bryan Cantrill:And, you know, IBM's current fate aside, you can't say that that was not successful. And have you read his memoir?
Adam Leventhal:I was just gonna ask you the same thing. Yeah. I did. Do you remember the name
Bryan Cantrill:of it? Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:I'm I'm
Adam Leventhal:sort of embarrassed that I did based on, you know, what was I doing at age 22 that I was reading this thing.
Bryan Cantrill:This it was very of the moment. It was kind of the thing that, like, your parents might get you for Christmas.
Adam Leventhal:My parents got me that for Christmas.
Bryan Cantrill:Did they really?
Adam Leventhal:Like, a %. Like like,
Bryan Cantrill:not Oh, I didn't even want. Oh my gosh. They didn't even mailed it.
Adam Leventhal:No. Drained it. Yeah. Exactly. From the label, you got that one.
Bryan Cantrill:Because, also, it's like, you're also, like, 22, so you're like, oh, Adam Adam works for a company. Yeah.
Adam Leventhal:Adam likes computers.
Bryan Cantrill:Like a computer. And, you know, I I just heard him on NPR, and it was very interesting, and I thought you would like it.
Adam Leventhal:I just I know. I mean? That's like you're you're in my parents' living room, empty nesters. Exactly.
Bryan Cantrill:Totally. Yeah. And so this is the the memoir is Who Says Elephants Can't Dance.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:I I have not read it. What did you think of it at the time? I mean Yeah. This is a huge story though in the I mean, this was, like, the turnaround story of the nineties, the Garson and IBM.
Adam Leventhal:I I you know, I bet I had, like, sad feelings, reading it while at Sun and then Ira.
Bryan Cantrill:Oh my god. I almost spit Diet Coke over this microphone. You had sad feelings for whom?
Adam Leventhal:Like For Sun, for, like, me, for, like, the state of, like, here reading about this success story. And here I am. Here I am. I guess you're not reading
Bryan Cantrill:it in 1996. You're reading it in like, in like
Adam Leventhal:02/2001. That's it came out
Max Cherney:in 02/2002.
Adam Leventhal:So
Bryan Cantrill:I'm I'm reading it. Having
Adam Leventhal:been at this company for a year where I joined, everyone's saying, like, the stock op the stock price only has one way to
Bryan Cantrill:go, and
Adam Leventhal:they were right. That's right. They they were right that only had one way to go. They were right only wrong about the directions. True.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Wrong about the directions.
Adam Leventhal:So, yeah, I'm sure I was like, man, this Did
Bryan Cantrill:you even find housing? You know? It's like, oh, it it's always one thing or another with you. True. I can't find housing.
Bryan Cantrill:I have to live in a parking lot. The stock only goes down. It's like, okay. We're you know, we're happy?
Adam Leventhal:I have a lot of complaints. It's fair. Because you have not read this. So I I'll I'll loan you my copy, because I I think I've got it somewhere.
Bryan Cantrill:Oh, god. That would be glorious because I that copy is inscribed. I know it. I know that copy is inscribed, and I cannot wait to read the inscription. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. The so but, I mean, I think it's I would actually like to read it. I think it's it's it is interest I mean, obviously, like, I I don't necessarily like that everything that IBM became out of that, but the the company was indisputably saved. Yeah. And Gerstner was also an outsider.
Bryan Cantrill:And I don't know. It would be actually interesting to know if Gerstner was an early I mean, I don't know how many outsiders IBM had had. I mean, I would be really surprised if John Akers hadn't grown up at IBM. The yes. John Akers grew up at IBM.
Bryan Cantrill:So, I bet Gerstner was damn near the first outsider to run IBM, and he'd been the the CEO of RJR Nabisco. I mean, there are actually a lot of analogs here. And and when Gertrude came in, everyone assumed that that the company needed to be broken up, and it wasn't. So, you know, I I I think it is not a foregone conclusion. With a different pick here, I would have said that I just don't see how it can possibly stay together, but I with with the blue, I think it's possible.
Bryan Cantrill:I I don't I still don't know if it's I I mean, I I'm I don't know. I'm torn. Adam, what do you do do do you think it's advised? Well,
Adam Leventhal:I agree with you. I think that you bring in someone else, like, more of a cons like, someone with, more of a consensus pick of the board. I think there's some, like, safe, kind of short term win, kind of good for public market stuff about spinning out the the founder services. I think, Lip Bu probably understands the the virtues of vertical integration both from his time at Cadence and from, his experience in venture to see that, like, the the union of these things actually is more valuable. And I think he's he's probably got the own the only candidate who would have the juice to hold it together and to articulate the picture and also to art you know, the relationships with potential consumers of this thing where I think for some folks, they'd say, I need this thing to be independent.
Adam Leventhal:I need the foundry to be its own business because I don't trust you, Intel, to to uphold your end of this bargain just because you've been too flighty over the last decade. Whereas I think Libbu has the gravitas to say, you know, this is the reason it needs to be vertically integrated, and we can commit to you as a reliable vendor.
Bryan Cantrill:I think you're right. I think the also, this is say about the merits of vertical integration because he actually has to kind of the trick he's gotta pull is both. It's like because you can't actually overly I mean, the problem is it's overly vertically integrated now. Yeah. Right?
Bryan Cantrill:And you need to be able to actually, like, make this available to a a Foundry customer. And, you know, as we were just we described, like, that's a that's a big sloppy surface area. And it's very, very different than than the kind of the surface area that they're accustomed to. And you really need to have customer empathy there. And I feel like he is one of very few people who can come in with that that real empathy about what it's like to design.
Bryan Cantrill:And I I also here's another question for you, Adam. Do you think that we see any kind of, like, Cadence Intel alliance?
Adam Leventhal:I mean, that does seem likely to me. I mean, right right, like, why But they
Max Cherney:already work closely together.
Bryan Cantrill:Right? No. No. They already work closely together, but I mean, like, like, real closely together. Like, what what what would that look like?
Bryan Cantrill:What do you mean? Well, I mean, whether it looks like an acquisition or it looks like a you know, where I mean, who knows? Maybe it gets dirty. Maybe Synopsys gets squeezed out of that. I mean, I I I I I don't know.
Bryan Cantrill:You wonder if there's not gonna be opportunities for I I also the other thing I wonder that, you know, we we had said this before that if I were in the the the shoes of running Intel, I would wanna find startups to bet on my Foundry services and make a program for that. And, boy, if there's one person that's gonna understand that, it will be Lip Bu.
Adam Leventhal:The other thing you said if you were CEO was that you were gonna open source the whole design supply chain, like, all that software. That feels less likely. Is that fair?
Bryan Cantrill:That feels less likely. I think I think we can say that that that the you know, look at I think the open EDA is gonna be kind of an evergreen around here. We're just never get yeah. I think we can safely say that that is in the highly less likely department.
Adam Leventhal:Although, it is it is quite a bargaining chip in this Cadence Alliance that you're also speculating.
Bryan Cantrill:The the this this, Cadence Intel Axis. Yeah. Yeah. The
Adam Leventhal:They might choose a different title. I don't know.
Bryan Cantrill:Maybe they should choose Axis, though. Maybe I I just think give a long look at Axis. This is what I gotta say. Don't don't reject Axis without really thinking about it.
Adam Leventhal:Put the fuck in there. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:Just just look inward before you reject access. It might the shoe that shoe might fit.
Max Cherney:One other historical thought is just I would encourage everybody to look closely at what happened when AMD split GlobalFoundries off. That I mean, AMD has worked effectively as a company now. But the the the separation was long, painful, and at the end of it, AMD was trading at, like, $2, 2 50, something like that. Now it's obviously Lisa's, you know, managed to turn the company around. GlobalFoundries never ended up making sure make figuring out how to crack EUV tech EUV manufacturing technology, so it's effectively stuck above a certain no.
Max Cherney:I think it's four 14 nanometers. It's effectively stuck there, and it's not gonna be able to move down. So it would the pitch was to make it a foundry for the world. And in some ways, it is, but it's not it's not able to participate at the bleeding edge, anymore. I mean, at least, again, AMD is a little bit of a different story, but it took a decade plus for for her to write the ship.
Max Cherney:So, you know, I I I'm not I have no idea what happened in Intel's case, but it but splitting the foundries off was not people often point to a the AMD case as a as a as a good case study, and it it didn't quite work as smoothly as sort of it might look now, if that makes sense.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. True. But remember that Intel had and then this is what Ruiz's book goes into. Had they had they not spun out GlobalFoundries, they were never gonna compete with Intel. They actually had to spin out GlobalFoundries so they could be a TSMC customer.
Bryan Cantrill:And then the fact that they actually had different process notes on the same package required them to get really good at chiplets, and ultimately ended up planting the seeds for their resurgence when they were betting on chiplets at the time that that Intel is betting on tile. So I think that the, you know, you can kinda look at that a couple different ways. I mean, I think, yeah, the global founders the the spin out did not, I think, succeed the way, I guess, the United Of Emirates. I think it put I sent a bunch of money in there. And they they had kind of envisioned, but I think that Ruiz would tell you that they kinda bungled it.
Bryan Cantrill:Of course, he went with the the the spin out. So I, you know, I don't know what to what to kinda make of that. But, yeah, I mean, your point, Max, that that this is not something that is easily done, that taking this thing out would be really, really brutal. And I agree with you. It's not clear that Intel would survive that surgery.
Max Cherney:Exact exactly. That's that that's all I'm trying to that's all I'm trying to say. Like, it's just it's a more it's a more complicated complex operation than you'd you'd you might it might sort of appear you can't just sort of and and because Intel, for the most part, is a the majority of its employees are manufacturing related. I mean, it's a manufacturing company with a design business, basically. Yeah.
Max Cherney:Right. And people forget that a lot that it's it's not a design company with a manufacturing arm. It's a manufacturing company in the physics business that spends an enormous amount of money on that and has a design unit as well. And that that has that had worked probably or that had worked historically pretty well. But well, it's, Brian and Adam, I do have to I have to go.
Max Cherney:But thank you, both for having me and and to all the people listening to us talk about Chip stuff, which I love and can do for hours. And this podcast is great. So I hope we can do this again, in the future.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Absolutely, Max. And, again, great story, great reported share, and, you know, what we're we're looking forward to to more of your stories as you I've obviously is a however this works out, it's a huge story. It's either a huge comeback or a or a big American flop. And either way, it's gonna be a great narrative.
Bryan Cantrill:So we'll we'll be counting we'll be looking at your stories. So keep up the great great work.
Max Cherney:Oh, thank you very much, and it's gonna be an exciting few years. That's for sure. Bye, everybody.
Adam Leventhal:For sure.
Bryan Cantrill:Thanks. Bye. Take care, Max. So, so and what I I think the biggest challenge here the biggest another big surprise for me, although maybe what it shouldn't be a surprise in Max's piece was around the doubling down on AI, because, man, that is aggressive. Now now you are going after you've decided, like, TSMC, NVIDIA, AMD, I'm picking three.
Bryan Cantrill:I'm going after all three. Yeah. But don't you feel like
Adam Leventhal:you have to? I mean, in his Max was just saying that Lip Bu's perspective as an investor, you know, involved with a bunch of AI companies, he's gotta feel like, he has to do it based on where the market is, and he's got probably the experience and the context to to be successful there.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, I I you know, the other thing I would say is and I've heard this from a couple of folks that, that the Intel one goober, the thing that, like, abstracts GPUs, it's actually pretty good.
Adam Leventhal:Interesting. I don't know. What tell me about the Intel one goober.
Bryan Cantrill:I this is like and and maybe someone in the chat knows more than I do. I mean, I've never used it, but this is they in order to to kinda compete I mean, everyone has had this problem of, like, how do I compete with CUDA?
Bryan Russett:And I think,
Bryan Cantrill:you know, we had James on here a couple weeks ago saying that the CUDA mode is not as deep as people think, which I definitely agree with. I think that it's like the I mean, the number of people actually implementing in CUDA is pretty small.
Bryan Russett:Mhmm.
Bryan Cantrill:And the but there are a lot of so and there are a lot of reasons, that I I mean, I think there's a lot of opportunity for things that are not CUDA. Mhmm. But you definitely you you also need to allow people to write software and and and use the thing that they're kind of accustomed to. And Intel One is this, I think it's oneAPI. The, the oneAPI, the the new era of heterogeneous computing.
Bryan Cantrill:I'm just gonna start regurgitating intel PR, which is like, god, how do we end up here?
Adam Leventhal:I I mean, I know they're investors, but come on. Let's let's
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Exactly.
Adam Leventhal:Just keeps some dignity about us here.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Let's let's see if they maintain their pro rata or not. Then we can call them back.
Bryan Cantrill:The, I don't think they listen to the podcast, but I guess we'll find out.
Adam Leventhal:We'll find out.
Bryan Cantrill:So but I've had a couple of folks tell me, like, this is, like don't sleep on this thing. Like, oneAPI is it's, like, good, and it's kind of unfortunate that it's going down with the ship, but maybe it's not. Maybe it's, you know, maybe this is an opportunity, and I would be, again, curious if folks have actually used this. But, you know, that may be because I I think another problem that just in general Intel has is not a really great software expertise at a time that they kinda need it. Not from not from t s m not to compete with TSMC, but to compete with AMD and to compete with NVIDIA, you definitely do need that.
Bryan Cantrill:And maybe I've been underestimating, maybe the one API is an indicator that they actually understand what they need to go do on the software side. But so I think that that's something that I mean, that's something to keep an eye on. Maybe that's gonna get a resurgence. I don't think Tofino's coming back, you know. I mean, why are you not calling up Lip Bu?
Adam Leventhal:I mean, it sounds like
Bryan Cantrill:I know. I know. I know. I know. I had long said that I looked forward to making the case for Tofino for Intel's next CEO, and here we are.
Bryan Cantrill:And I even, like, know the guy. And I'm like and I'm still like, yeah, why bother? I mean, I just think we're
Adam Leventhal:We've moved on.
Bryan Cantrill:We I've moved on. I've moved on. Yeah. They okay. I'm kinda I'm kinda done with that.
Bryan Cantrill:But I think that, like, Reese I mean so you so your view is like, look. You gotta you can't just leave AI. You you gotta go after this space. I think I'm sure you're right. I think I mean, doesn't that feel right?
Bryan Cantrill:I mean, does it I mean,
Bryan Russett:they I
Adam Leventhal:I don't know. I mean, I I I think there are folks who view, AI as kind of more flash in the pan or or trendy or whatever. But if you're the incoming CEO of public company that is poised to do it, don't you feel like you have some, like, doesn't that just feel like an obvious right thing to at least talk about? Like, I mean, how much investment you put in it, TBD, but, like, it seems, unavoidable. You can't be a chip company that is, like, out of the AI chip business.
Bryan Cantrill:Another yeah. Alex. Haven't they also acquired a fair amount
Alex Kesling:of, like, low power edge accelerator IP over the years, like the Mobini's acquisition and everything?
Bryan Cantrill:Totally. So they they they've got a bunch of yeah. Actually, you should've said because there there are a bunch of, like, other little assets kicking around. So here's a question for you, Adam. Does Alterra come back under the intel?
Bryan Cantrill:Because they kinda, like, have, like, half they've kinda, like, they're kinda, like, dangling Alterra out the window right now. Like, I'm not sure what the state is of of Alterra. It's, like, not spun out, but not in. And you got the on the FPGA side, they got a lot of low power stuff kinda kicking around. They like, maybe some of these other assets, actually, maybe not so fast.
Bryan Cantrill:Maybe these things are maybe under this new, lip boo utopia that I'm creating. Maybe all of these things can suddenly be put to optimal use. Yeah.
Adam Leventhal:You you just sort of wanna in that Lip Bu Utopia, this this competency of management, where you imagine trying to assemble all of these things into a coherent strategy where clearly
Bryan Cantrill:there
Adam Leventhal:it it's been fairly haphazard.
Bryan Cantrill:It has not been coherent. Well, and so the the there was also a another thing to to kinda not sleep on here. So, I I'll throw another, like, the strange thing out there. What about risk five? Mhmm.
Bryan Cantrill:Right. Yeah. Right? Because I think that, like, I think one of the things that we are excited about at Oxide is we're looking at the kind of the accelerator space, and we've been, you know, we've got our, fortunately, our dance card full with all the things that we need to do on on on compute and on storage and networking. But as we look at the accelerator space, like, RISC V is looking really, really interesting, and, man, you think that, like, Intel could if Intel decided to move there, really decided to move because I know they have they done they've done some things in risk five where they kinda, like, dabbled and, like, flinched and they kinda move away, and they had this pathfinder thing that was kind of a the the and but, boy, if they really moved there, that could get interesting.
Alex Kesling:And a bunch of their poor architects left for founding a risk five company. If they acquired that, rolled it back in
Bryan Cantrill:Totally. And you could think that, like, that's something they might be able to move fast on. And the where because the other thing is, like, I the you do have arguably a clean I mean, it's unclear I mean, the Gaudi team is kind of left, and it feels like they've got a maybe a cleanish slate on AI, and maybe the I mean, that's kind of the way you you feel like Glipo's got a is pretty far looking in that regard. And, yeah, maybe I was just saying maybe, like, roll some of these folks back in. The other thing that I think that if you the kind of the first moves are gonna be important here because if he starts, like, getting rid of a bunch of middle management that people felt was really impeding the company, that is gonna attract people back to the company.
Bryan Cantrill:Because the company does so is a lot of resources, and they're, you know, solving hard technical problems, and you're like, wait a minute. Okay. Yeah. You got rid of that person, that person, and then, oh, okay. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:The boy, you know, talk to me. You might be you you might actually have a get some of this agility back. Yeah. Now, conversely, if, like, that doesn't start to happen, well, I I think that, you you know, you got the a risk of the the kind of the cycle boom the other way. I'm gonna be very curious to see who he brings in to run some of these things.
Bryan Cantrill:Because the other thing is, like, again, I think Intel's got an insider problem. Mhmm. And I think that getting some more outsiders in without actually kind of bringing in your band of cronies. But, you know, an advantage of Libbu's kind of, the arc through the industry is he's just seen a lot. And he's obviously got a Rolodex that is, I mean, one of the best in the industry.
Adam Leventhal:So, how long do you think we're gonna need to wait? Because he he starts tomorrow. Is that right?
Bryan Cantrill:Weird. Also weird. Like, why start tomorrow? Like, why didn't he start on last Wednesday? Oh, did you see that he went to the first All Hands in the Cadence shirt?
Adam Leventhal:No. I didn't see that. That's terrific. Well,
Bryan Cantrill:I think it is kinda terrific. It kinda goes back to, like, my paper mache severed head that remember the the the
Adam Leventhal:No. I remember.
Bryan Cantrill:I I know I I I know the lawyers asked us not to refer to that again, in any future episode. But, the the the you kinda needed to shock the system a little bit. And I kinda feel like I mean, I don't know that I mean, I don't know if it's an alpha move or not. On the one hand, I would say that, like, Lip Bu is like, you know, he is a, he's, like, he's a nice person. You know what I mean?
Bryan Cantrill:And and and I'm sure, like, I mean, like all capitalists, he's, like, ultimately, you know, he's not That there are elements of non existent. But the he's not an ethical.
Adam Leventhal:Right? He'd but he'd drive over you for an extra billion dollars.
Bryan Cantrill:But But but a sweet guy. But he did. The so, I mean, I don't know how deliberate it would be to wear a Cadence t shirt as, like, an alpha move. Now, that said, I when we did meet with him, he had a chair that was different than all the other chairs in the room. He had a special chair.
Bryan Cantrill:And you know what, it it was like, I no, I shit. You know what, it was the Silicon Valley chair. It was such a, like, dead ringer for the Silicon Valley chair that they all reported into. So and I don't know. I mean, but that could be, like, yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:I I have, like, a disc issue and I need to, like, this is the only chair that doesn't give me back pain. Or it could be, like, yeah, of course. I in any room, I need to have, like, the the highest chair of the room. Obviously, I have a throne. Sorry.
Bryan Cantrill:If you're not, like, I'll send you a memo called, autarky. So, yeah. I I how long do we need to wait is a good question. I feel like I feel on the one hand, I would say not long. I just don't understand why he didn't start on on December 9.
Bryan Cantrill:And I I mean, again, I think but my personal read on that is a, board fight, at some level, but I don't know. Yeah. And then, like, once they're over the line, why not start last week? But
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. And and and we I mean, whatever. Maybe it's Saint Patrick's Day, and he had big plans.
Bryan Cantrill:I mean, that's not impossible. So I will say this. The guy is, like, no. Because, maybe I shouldn't say this. No.
Bryan Cantrill:But he, I I the the he is he's a devoted family man is what I would say. So, I'm just trying to I'm trying to figure
Adam Leventhal:out what you're not saying.
Bryan Cantrill:It is well, it's kinda like I don't wanna, you know, I don't wanna be, like, overly personal, but he's a devoted family man. He's so the the, I I and I think that it is actually conceivable that he had the Saint Patrick's Day plans. That is that is what I'm trying to say. Okay. That that is not impossible.
Bryan Cantrill:Okay. Cool. He's got adult children, and it's just impossible that he's just like, yeah. You know, I needed to go, you know, I I I sorry. I had a personal commitment, you know.
Bryan Cantrill:There
Adam Leventhal:we go. I'll I'll start Tuesday. Come on. Let's get over it.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Let's get over it. No. It also could be like, I don't know. I'll start next week.
Bryan Cantrill:But it feels like he is gonna move quickly here. I think he has to. I mean, I think he's gotta, like he does not have a ton of time. And he doesn't have enough a ton of time. He's gotta get those early moves that get confidence
Adam Leventhal:from people. But but it's a balance. What you know, one of the things he talked about in Max's piece was a little bit of a listening campaign. And and I think there is something to winning the hearts and minds. Like, you wanna move quickly, but not so quickly that people feel like, that that they're not being heard.
Bryan Cantrill:I think and the listening campaign is very interesting because, like, listening and intel are not words that have historically been in the same sentence. And I thought this is just like the, so the Intel spokesman said in a prepared statement, LitBoo will be spending first of all, I I do I mean, we we've been obviously calling it LitBoo as well here, but, you know, we called Gelsinger Gelsinger. We call anyway, whatever. The I guess, everyone knows who who LitBoo is. The Lip Bu will be spending a lot of time listening to customers, partners, and employees.
Bryan Cantrill:I think that order is significant. Mhmm. As he comes on board and works closely with our leadership team to position the business for future success. I think the fact that he's gonna be and, you know, good on him. Intel has not listened to customers maybe ever.
Bryan Cantrill:So, the like, that will be great. That would be I I I I look forward to this. And obviously, they're not gonna listen to us. So I'm like, we're not gonna be the ones. So, like, you're not gonna
Adam Leventhal:You're you're not you're not waiting by the phone for lip boost call.
Bryan Cantrill:You know, I I, you know, I kept the light on. I kept dinner warm, and he just never wanted to listen. Just I just don't wanna, you know no. But that said, we know lots of people who are the people that he would be listening to. And so if we will I I think we'll kinda be able to figure out where that one's going relatively soon.
Bryan Cantrill:And I think, again, look for some of these early moves. Look for some of these executive changes. I think there's gonna be a lot of them. I think the co CEOs are gonna be I I gotta tell you, co CEOs are gonna be gone. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:I know the co CEOs, the c or rather excuse me, the CEO comma Intel product, I think I I I I just think it's gonna be thank you for your service. And, I mean, I'm I'm sure, like, hey, like, you know, she'll make 7 figures out of it. Good for her. But I I I just think that there's just no way. Certainly, they're not gonna be I mean, you can't allow for the you know, you're not gonna be CEO of product.
Bryan Cantrill:No.
Adam Leventhal:Maybe you become the executive CEO or the s CEO or something. That's right.
Bryan Cantrill:And then I would look for some big moves on, like, look for I mean so this is where where, you know, we talked about Devine Rao. Obviously, I was joking a little bit about Devine Rao as the CEO of Intel. But maybe maybe Devine Rao runs the AI side of things. That's not impossible. And if you are are in in Devine's shoes again, Devine is already I'm sure Devine is like, this guy stop talking about me.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, what what is your problem? Like, why why We are Why are
Adam Leventhal:you pitching me on these terrible jobs for
Bryan Cantrill:I think these terrible jobs. Like, what is your problem? Can you guys just talk about someone else, please? So, anyway, I'll be looking for the restraining order from I think the restraining order from Naveen is gonna beat the listening tour from from Lipo as it Yeah. As it darkens the door.
Bryan Cantrill:But the but you you can envision someone like that leading the, like, leading AI, which would be interesting. Or and on the the the design p the design side, the x 86 side is the actually, what about spinning that out?
Adam Leventhal:Spinning out x 86?
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah.
Adam Leventhal:I think you've lost your mind.
Bryan Cantrill:I think That's fair. I I I'm obviously I'm like I'm I'm pretty punched here.
Adam Leventhal:I mean, when when you're talking about when you're talking about risk five, I was just thinking, like, do Right. I'm not sure that Intel, like, I I feel like x 86 is everything. And I, like and I I realized that that's not completely true, but I just I wonder No.
Bryan Cantrill:But that's the the degree
Adam Leventhal:to which they can embrace other ISAs.
Bryan Cantrill:But, like, that was the problem with Larrabee. Right? Larrabee tried to do x 86 everywhere onto the GPU. Mhmm. And they they kinda need to break the back of that one.
Bryan Cantrill:And I don't know if you spin on the design business, but, like, x 86 like, they're behind. They're badly behind AMD.
Adam Leventhal:God. That would be a crazy
Bryan Cantrill:They're Intel's yeah. No. That's a good point. Alex says that that they're Intel's Windows. And, you know, we never real and not not that Microsoft still has Windows, but, boy, do they emphasize a lot of other things.
Bryan Cantrill:That's a good point. And and that so this would be to to give another historical analog. This one I Max has already left, so I can't shame him over. We're not getting this. I hope he knows who Ballmer is.
Bryan Cantrill:Right? I mean, they he's here
Max Cherney:to pop
Bryan Cantrill:that guy. The, but, Steve Ballmer, long time CEO of of Microsoft, and had held Microsoft in a straight jacket over Windows and was also living in the past and needed to get out and get them on to and Satya has done a great job of getting them on to all sorts of other things, Azure and certainly and and AI and everything else and, TypeScript and all the other micro Microsoft properties. Yeah. Here, I'm, like, I'm, like, singing Microsoft's praises. This is really gross.
Adam Leventhal:I know. Can you imagine, like, if you twenty years ago? I think I
Bryan Cantrill:heard this. This out. We we can cut all this out. This is just a this is
Adam Leventhal:We could.
Bryan Cantrill:Sure. You're in a conference. Right? The, but I mean, so I think that, like, this is why I think the risk five thing would be kind of interesting and a move, like, really on the accelerator piece. And maybe, you could see some more openness there better.
Bryan Cantrill:So I think that that that those are things to to look for. I think the other thing to look for, is, and maybe they won't make a big CTO move. I think that, like, there is no way they're gonna keep their Greg Lavender is just like, I don't think there's any way that Greg will be the CTO. But, you know, who knows? And I think that that that's another opportunity for a big move.
Adam Leventhal:Did did Gilson or Don Cronk, right?
Bryan Cantrill:CTO of Nutella. Like, that is, like, the highlight That'd be amazing. Yeah. And I I kinda feel like if Lip Bu makes some early good big moves, I think it opens up some, like, more exciting bigger moves as people are like, I don't know. That does seem kind of interesting.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, wow. Okay.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:So, yeah, I don't know. I I I think I I think we will we're gonna see a lot in the next six months though. I I think there's just we are not gonna I mean, what would have been and then, well, frankly, where they have been, and part of the reason that it's such a problem for the I mean, they have done nothing since Gelsinger's departure. They have literally just, like, cut the engines and they are just, like
Adam Leventhal:Just coasting. You're right.
Bryan Cantrill:They're just absolutely coasting while the altitude just, like, the altimeter begins to whirl. Yeah. So, you know, I I I think you can definitely expect for some some moves. What what do you think, Adam?
Adam Leventhal:What do you think? Oh, yeah. I I mean, I'm sort of I I I feel like I'm braced for something, like, tomorrow. Like, I feel like, listening campaign aside, I feel like I'm I'm watching the space very eagerly. I think I think things are gonna happen pretty quick.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. I think they can happen quick too, and I don't think it's gonna be be okay. Any acquisitions, do you think? I I actually do not think he's gonna be very acquisitive.
Adam Leventhal:I think that's right. I think that that, acquiring companies into a culture that you think is broken is not a recipe for success. Right? Like, I think and I think that he's made that diagnosis. And yeah, like what pumping in new business units or whatever, the only way that would make sense is, like, reporting it to him directly, and he's got his hands full with sorting out existing business units.
Adam Leventhal:So I think you see acquisitions dry up to almost nothing.
Alex Kesling:Yeah. Could you imagine an inverse culture acquisition?
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Where you kind of try to you try to acquire a much better culture. Never worth it. IBM Red Hat. IBM Red Hat.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Have you talked to the Red Hat folks recently though? Because it there was a little while where there was, like, the kind of, like, you know, shortly after the Red Hat acquisition, the Red Hat folks were, like, it's a reverse acquisition. And then you talk to them. I would just got back from Sysakan where there are bunch of ex Red Hatters.
Bryan Cantrill:It's like, it's a normal acquisition. It's it's
Bryan Russett:it's It's
Adam Leventhal:the other kind. Right?
Bryan Cantrill:It's the other kind. It's like, it wasn't I thought it was a reverse acquisition. Like, oh, it was. And then, oh, it's not. I think that the in particular, some key Red Hat folks got passed over at the executive level at IBM, and people are realizing that, like, actually, it's the it's it's actually just IBM.
Bryan Cantrill:But that's an interesting idea. I mean, I don't think that is impossible. I think that it would be I but I I Adam, I do agree with you that ultimately, you wanna we gotta go prune this back, and we we need to go, like, get the culture working, find the, get out some of the kind of the impediments. No. Okay.
Bryan Cantrill:I got another idea for you, Adam. This listening tour
Bryan Russett:Mhmm.
Bryan Cantrill:What if it's already done? What if that's been spent in the last three months doing?
Adam Leventhal:That's pretty interesting. Although, you know, internally too, I feel like, I'm I'm not sure that like, if if you've got Lip Bu walking around, talking to employees, I feel like that would have wandered out out of the shop.
Bryan Cantrill:That's true. That that's also fair. That's also fair.
Adam Leventhal:But but it may be true that with with partners, it may be true certainly with customers, that he's able to keep things in the reps. I don't know. This
Bryan Cantrill:is interesting. Lipu is very, very, very dialed in. His but my experience, I can't remember who we talking about in the meeting with him. And he's like, what's calm right now? I'm like, alright.
Bryan Cantrill:Let's calm right now. I mean, it's just like I I it was kinda like, alright. You wanna call the pope? Let's call the pope. Alright.
Bryan Cantrill:That is yeah. Call the pope. It means so I think that he, that kind of, connectedness is really gonna help him here. And, you know, I think you could see some exciting moves. And I again, so I I, yeah, we'll have to stay tuned.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. And and what any big predictions?
Bryan Cantrill:I think this is the best Intel could do by far. I don't think Intel was gonna do better than this. I mean, I don't know what your take is on. I but, like, this is I I actually thought Liboo was off the table, so the fact that that this is and also if Lip Bu leaves in frustration after, like, six months, there's no floor.
Adam Leventhal:Oh, no. Zero. Right. Exactly. Like, the it just free fall.
Bryan Cantrill:If Lip Bu is like, you know what? She couldn't be saved as it turns out. As it turns out, like, that middle management layer, I you you can't get that thing out with a crowbar. I tried. The the then I think there's gonna be no floors.
Bryan Cantrill:But I don't think I actually don't think it's gonna happen. I think it's gonna be I also think that, like, this guy's gonna give, the street enough confidence that he'll probably be able to raise some money and block some holes and be able to I mean, he he has given the company its best possible chance, and now the board owes it to themselves to fire themselves and to construct a board that he needs to save them.
Adam Leventhal:I think I think that's spot on because I I think he's got maximum leverage over the board. I'm I'm sure he's gonna exercise it and, yeah, I agree with you. He's their best chance.
Bryan Cantrill:He's their best chance. And, I I also think that, like, the other thing to keep I I think all former CEOs of Intel all need to have boating accidents. I think that they they they they that's nothing to look for. Because it's just like, all of a sudden, it's just like another boating accident. God, how many of these guys go sailing?
Bryan Cantrill:It's like, I don't know. Just like I because I I just
Adam Leventhal:That took a turn.
Bryan Cantrill:Well, I just feel that, like, you got this kinda, like, peanut gallery that is you know, you got Craig Barrett saying bring back Gelsinger. You got and it's just like everyone needs to everyone needs to quiet down or you back onto the boat, you go. So maybe look. I'm not thinking that's like a boating accident. Alright?
Bryan Cantrill:I'm just saying, like, you know, a scare of some sort.
Adam Leventhal:Here's the thing. I I did ask for what's your wildest prediction. I didn't think you would say murdering his political opponents.
Bryan Cantrill:That's on that's on a it is a boating accident due to mechanical failure, and the boat was lost at sea. So, like, I don't know where you're I don't know where you're coming up with that.
Adam Leventhal:I Usually, it's suspicious circumstances. Accident.
Bryan Cantrill:Is that tragic? Did I ever tell you about this that the, the, the do you remember the JonBenet case? JonBenet Ramsey?
Adam Leventhal:Only vaguely.
Bryan Cantrill:Okay. So JonBenet Ramsey is this is, unfortunately, probably not left the generational chasm. It really shouldn't. So, this is a young girl tragically murdered, six year old tragically murdered in Colorado. I love card at the time.
Bryan Cantrill:And, the everyone is, like, I guess, it just says something about us as humans. Everyone's, like, the mother did it. And in part because, like, they had her doing, like, a lot of pageants as, like, a six year old, which is kinda like I don't know. It's like, it's creepy. I'm sorry.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, if you were a pageant kid, Adam, I know you were a big pageant kid. So, it's like, it's weird. I've tried to tell you this before. You haven't really taken it very well. I know it's a big cultural thing, but
Adam Leventhal:it's weird.
Bryan Cantrill:And so everyone's like, the mother did it. It turns out, by the way, like, the mother didn't do it. It was the the later, exonerated. But the, my I my I was with my sister and my mother, and they were while this was this was, you know, a very current story, and my mother says seemingly to herself, that's not how you kill your children.
Bryan Russett:A a boating
Bryan Cantrill:accident is how you kill your children. And my sister and I both, like, looked at one of them being like, are we and then she was like, oh, what oh, sorry. Did I I mean, it was like it was this kind of like, oh, I I did sorry. Why why is I did it I was just I don't know. My mind was oh, I'm drifting.
Bryan Cantrill:And I
Adam Leventhal:don't mean to like I'm just going to my usual fantasy. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. I'm sorry. I I'm I'm just like, I am I'm gonna be extremely careful getting in a I I'm just like, I'm not going on a boat without her, basically, is what I'm trying to say.
Adam Leventhal:It's like, if I'm getting on a it's coming on this boating trip. Yeah. Exactly. Like, I I need because I'm telling all my friends that I'm going boating with you. I just wanna make it clear.
Adam Leventhal:I just wanna
Bryan Cantrill:make it clear about where I'm going and when I'm expected to return. And I'm just saying, if I don't return when I'm expected to return, people are gonna ask a lot of questions. So just and you're coming with me. So, Stoch, anyway, boating accident. There we go.
Bryan Cantrill:Craig Barrett, look out. Be careful when you're stepping on a boat. I I just say quiet down. Let this guy do his work. That's what I gotta say.
Bryan Cantrill:That that but but then has given the company the best shot at at at success, and people need to need to give them a shot, and people in that company, around that company, around the board need to give them a shot. And customers on the end are under no such obligation, and I think everyone is I I'm, like, personally, like, I'm interested, but if Intel were to come to us being like, okay. Great. Now will you consider adopting, you know, an Intel accelerator, a GPU part, or or for AI? I'll be like, no.
Bryan Cantrill:I I I mean, not yet anyway. I I'm I'm gonna be I you're gonna have to earn that trust back, and you got a long, long, long way to go. Yeah. But Lipo's giving them a shot. So Yeah.
Adam Leventhal:It's gonna be exciting.
Bryan Cantrill:It's been great. Thank you to our special guests inside the litter box here. Really, and enjoy it. Brian, I guess, I will not get I I I presume you're not cooking the meal tonight.
Bryan Russett:So No. No. If you'll have me back, happily bring a little Hibachi and get
Bryan Cantrill:a little bit of a good Adam, what do you think about that? You gotta do Brian doing, like, a live? Would that be that be cool? When did
Adam Leventhal:A %. Yes.
Bryan Cantrill:Oh my god. I know.
Bryan Russett:I will fly back out for that. Alright. Yeah. We'll we'll
Bryan Cantrill:we'll do it. That would be great. You know, we're we're suckers for food. So great to have you both here. The really exciting and exciting topic.
Bryan Cantrill:So, Leboo, the the the floor is yours. Go get them. Alright, Adam. Thank you. And we got a couple episodes coming up.
Bryan Cantrill:I do we we actually have an idea of what we're gonna do in the next couple weeks. We got some good ones coming up. So Unbelievable. I'm I know. Unbelievable.
Bryan Cantrill:You believe when you'll see it. I unbelievable in the truest sense of I'd you Right. Out of
Adam Leventhal:the Bible. Spirituality. Right?
Bryan Cantrill:Exactly. When I say unbelievable, I mean, I don't believe it. That's what I mean. Alright. Thanks, everyone.
Bryan Cantrill:See you next time.