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“For many people, the fear of getting it wrong is greater than the fear of regret. But for me it’s always been the other way around. I’d rather get it wrong than not try.”
“We create what we most need in the world, I believe. And one of the joys of this work [for me] is connecting great people and seeing what unfolds.”
At some point in our lives we all get scared – of making the wrong decision, of not being a good parent, or that everyone will figure out we’re just making it up as we go.
I’ve spent years helping leaders work through fear, stress, and uncertainty. Now I’m making a podcast about how they face their fears and come out stronger.
It’s for founders, leaders, and business owners who feel like they’re constantly fighting uphill and not finding the balance they need to be effective at work and present at home.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:00:16 I'm Sally Ann Marie and welcome to Fearless Forward. The podcast asks leaders how they face their fears. Today, I'm in conversation with a man who's quietly reshaped how thousands of business founders think about success. He describes his mission as helping people pursue work that lights them up, not burns them out. 13 years ago, Laurence McKay Hill co-founded the Happy Startup School, an alternative business school and global learning community, with his old school friend Carlos Saba. It's strapline make money, do good, be happy challenges the commonly held assumption that business success is incompatible with a purposeful, fulfilling life. Today, the Happy Startup School has a worldwide community of over 120,000 people of all ages and backgrounds looking for purposeful learning, friendship, and fun. In this conversation, we explore the formative influences in Laurence's life that have guided his purpose and direction. So, Laurence, you've had a really successful career. Can you tell us about some of the early influences in your life that may have played a part in the choices you've made?
Laurence McCahill 00:01:35 well, first off, thanks for having me.
Laurence McCahill 00:01:37 I'm excited to be here, have this conversation. I wouldn't expect anything less than a deep opening from from you, Sally Anne. so thank you for that. I mean, the immediate thing that comes to mind is my upbringing was slightly unusual, I would say, in that I spent most of my formative years living above a pub, or various pubs, as it turned out. So my parents were, I guess they had traditional jobs when I was really young. So my mum was, well, she had us very young, so she was obviously a, a mother who stayed at home a lot, but she also was an auxiliary nurse, and my dad was a teacher. but when I was about five, they decided to jack that in and and run a pub in North London and Highgate. And so we Upshur moved to schools and so I spent a couple of years there. Then we had a bit of a gap. My mum's mum got very ill, passed away sadly. but then when I was about ten again, we, we, I think my dad must have got an itch and, got back on the pub game again.
Laurence McCahill 00:02:39 So, yeah, most of my formative years, I would say were living above a pub. not just any old sort of pub. My parents were from both, from Irish backgrounds. So there was a real, I guess, a sense of community at the heart of that in, in that they weren't just managers, they were, I would say hosts, you know, they were very good. I've realised at making people feel good and creating a space where people wanted to come to. So my dad would be the kind of charismatic landlord who had all the stories and would hear lots of stories about locals, and he'd look after the, the, the, the drink side, the wet side, as they call it. And my mum would look after the foods and she would create all the dishes and everything. So it was very much a homely environment. even though anyone can walk in. So I think that was one thing I learned early on was when you run a pub, it feels like home, but anyone can come in the door.
Laurence McCahill 00:03:34 And, the thing I struggled with, I think, was where my dad would, as any of us probably would, feel like someone's not welcome in their home. But because it's a business, people feel like they should be able to come into any, any pub. So there was this often conflict at that time as well, which I think, I learned to deal with and navigate in terms of some ways, being a diplomat. I think, at that time, because my dad would fly off the handle a bit or do a basil, as many of the locals would say. So he was a I wouldn't say Basil Fawlty was a role model for him, but he certainly had Basil moments in his, a in his, publican days. So. Yeah. He had a bit of a temper, but. Yeah. At its heart, his he had a heart of gold. And really, he knew he knew who he wanted to be in his home. And sometimes some people weren't the right people and he wanted them out.
Laurence McCahill 00:04:22 So that was always interesting. So yeah, I guess being in that environment, being around all walks of life. so even though I wasn't working behind the bar at the time when I was really young, you're just absorbing all of this stuff, you know, seeing particularly lots of men, not exclusively, but you can imagine late 70s 80s. It's a very different world to the world we live in now. It's much more, a place for men generally to come and offload, a lot of smoke because people smoke back then. but also a lot of good humor, a lot of support, a lot of, music, a lot of laughter with a bit of conflict thrown in where there's alcohol involved. That's always the way. So yeah, I guess my upbringing definitely influenced my later life because I didn't know any different. And so being around people all the time, being around community, being around, stories, being around, friends, being around enemies. It definitely influenced my later life because, yeah, when I stepped into the world of work and business, it felt very different in terms of it didn't feel as connected as that.
Laurence McCahill 00:05:32 And, yeah, we can probably get more onto that. But yeah, definitely felt like a mismatch between the world I was brought up in and the world I was stepping into when I stepped into my, as you call it, career, which I had a visceral reaction to when you said, because I've never thought of it as a career, I've always thought of as an anti career, but maybe that's on me.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:05:53 Well, maybe. And let's come back to that because that's super interesting. Laurence, I found myself thinking, as you were describing your experience of being brought up living above a pub in your formative years. There was a whole world of human behaviors in one place, some of them easier than others. And what you learned from that in terms of how you navigate that world today. And I'm wondering, you alluded to your dad sometimes doing a basil, which I love, Fawlty Towers, by the way. So it's like. Yeah, a lovely reminder. But as a young boy, can you take yourself back to that moment observing? Do you have any particular moment that springs to mind where you might choose to be a little bit more specific around what you mean there?
Laurence McCahill 00:07:03 Yeah, I think.
Laurence McCahill 00:07:07 So actually my earliest memory is not our own pub. My dad used to. So what it was did before he ran pubs. He taught during the day, but to supplement his income and because he had a talent, he would play Irish music in many, most evenings out in various pubs and venues all around west London. Sort of massive Irish population you can imagine, like Kilburn and Ealing, where we were brought up, and since the age of 15, 16, he was out grafting. You know, he was he was a grafter. He would he would earn money for the family. He would. yeah. Every one of his siblings played something. He was one of seven, brought up in a working class family where, you know, back then, if you weren't bringing money and you weren't useful. So he's always worked hard. And so, yeah, I would go and sort of help him out and just set up the equipment wherever he'd be playing. obviously not midweek, but like on a Sunday afternoon.
Laurence McCahill 00:07:59 And so, you know, I suppose this kind of me, people watching, you know, starting at a very young age. and even then, I'd seen him. Yeah. Just be very efficient, let's say, with his communication style with people. But he learnt how to deal with people in a tough environment. And so you couldn't you wouldn't suffer fools. But also it was delivered in the way that somehow people still come away liking him. but there were moments when I was working behind the bar, I remember, and I was probably only 16, 17 myself, so I really shouldn't have been serving alcohol. but, but I was, And yeah, he, he, he had a short term for them because I think there was a couple of things going on. Was these. It's not a job. It's a way of life. You know, you're up from six in the morning till midnight. You've got a split shift, basically. So you may get a couple of hours, off in the afternoon, but the business is still running.
Laurence McCahill 00:08:54 So you're always on, you know, you're getting deliveries early in the morning. Late at night. You've got people that you're trying to get rid of, you know, who want to stay around. Everyone wants to sort of party and you want to go home. So, you know, it's a tiring way to live. And so understandably, you know, it's a lot of pressure, you know, to make the business work and also to keep the family happy and all of the things that life has in store for us. so, yeah, there'd be times when I would say he was unreasonable with some of the people that came in, and I found myself a hate and conflict and will sort of be being the diplomat almost. So almost trying to keep the situation more calm and trying to see the other person's view, not just my dad's reaction to them. so, for example, like we had a pub in Knightsbridge, which was one of the nicer pubs we had towards the later days, and he, a lot of people that came into that pub were tourists.
Laurence McCahill 00:09:49 There'd be like American tourists wandering into this beautiful mews pub just off Hyde Park and Brompton Road and, they wouldn't know the etiquette of a British pub. They'd sit there waiting for someone to come and take their order, you know, which is like, you can imagine if my dad having his basil moments, there'd be like a kind of standoff almost between the two of them. so it's not like that would cause conflict, but like other times where people would, like, buy an orange juice or something, or ask for a, ask for a Sunday roast and two plates so they can split it. And it was he just. So I thought it was him being unreasonable when he would kind of push back against that. But actually, I think he would just thought they were being tight or that they disrespected him. And so there was definitely a kind of feeling of either a lack of respect, because they just saw him as a waiting staff and a service someone to sort of serve them. So how people treated you, you know, if you're in the service industry, you really get to know what people are like because you know, you're at the bottom of the wrong almost.
Laurence McCahill 00:10:48 So people treat you well, you're treating them well. But if they treat you with disrespect, particularly if you're in, as he probably was then in his 50s, or 60s, then, you know, you don't have much time for people, regardless of how much they're paying you. So I think those situations where he would fly off the handle a bit, I found challenging. but as I've got older, I kind of could see his point, really. I think he probably could have dealt with them in a more diplomatic way, but he didn't have the time. So he definitely, I would say, had a strong bullshit radar. I would call it where he just saw through people very well and, and so he wouldn't waste time with people that he didn't think were his people. And I used to find that really tough and really almost cringe worthy when I was in those situations at the time. But as I said, looking back, knowing him well, what he was going through as well because he he also had a drink problem too.
Laurence McCahill 00:11:43 So he was navigating that at the time. So I think that he had a tough childhood himself. lots of challenges in his life, which I think all influenced how he showed up in the world. And, yeah, ultimately he was just, I would say. Yeah, he knew his people. He knew his people. And so that I think was something I've learned to is to to to know your people and not not waste time with people that aren't your people and try and bring them over when you know, ultimately they're not giving you the respect, so why should you give it back to them?
Sally Anne-Marie 00:12:18 Gosh, that's such an interesting question, Laurence. When someone doesn't give you respect, why should you give it back? I always want to put that to one side for the moment, because what I was hearing most in what you said was, was compassion. Actually, you know, as you've got older, as you step back, you look at what was happening from that perspective. 2020 vision, as you might call it, naming your your own wonderful online program, which I know has since changed the name.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:12:51 But that idea of looking back and seeing the whole picture. Seeing beyond your kind of discomfort with the conflict that you're observing, and seeing what was actually happening in the dynamic between in those situations and what your dad was going through.
Laurence McCahill 00:13:15 Yeah.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:13:16 Did you ever.
Laurence McCahill 00:13:18 I quickly I was just going to say because I'm, I mean, you might have found this, but when you get to an age where your parents got to when certain situations may have happened, or your kids are at the point where, you know, you had challenging times and you're like, wow, I was that person then. So you both have compassion for them. What they were going through at this point of life, which, you know, midlife is, is the messy middle, isn't it? And it can be difficult for lots of reasons. but also, yeah, compassion for my younger self as well. Like, yeah. Well, I thought I was growing up then, but actually I was trying to navigate this, thing we called life.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:13:57 I'm wondering, did you ever manage to talk to your dad about that in the way you're talking to us now?
Laurence McCahill 00:14:07 I wouldn't say I did, no. I mean, he passed away, almost nine years ago now. I definitely had. I definitely had some conversations with him about his drinking days, which I would never have touched when I was younger, because, you know, he was he was an alcoholic, you know, not afraid to admit that. And he wouldn't have been. He did get, clean. He didn't drink for 20 odd years before he died. So he he, he definitely healed, I would say. but, yeah, it was almost a Jekyll and Hyde thing. And like anyone who's ever had anyone with addiction in their life will understand what that means. You know, you've got someone you've really respect and someone who's, a kind of figure. Like, my dad was a very strong figure, you know, disciplinarian in lots of ways. Teacher then public. And you can imagine they're both quite strong professions, and you have to lead.
Laurence McCahill 00:15:05 and so he was. Yeah, very charismatic. And also alcohol kind of amplified that. And I'm sure for a while it was fine until it wasn't fine. and it got out of hand and, you know, various challenges with that. But then when he stopped, when he was not drinking, then he was your dad again. And so you couldn't just bring up something really difficult because you were sort of still in some ways not, I wouldn't say scared of him, but yeah, you were scared to bring that up because, yeah, he was such a strong figure that you felt that you were challenging authority. And so even in later life, whilst I would like to have some of those conversations, I just still felt it was sort of tender ground, almost, because I don't want to be pointing fingers. and yeah, I think I've almost heard it through. Through others, you know, that, we've been able to sort of relay some of these, these conversations, but not not directly.
Laurence McCahill 00:16:03 and I think, I think there was a lot of pain and, shame there as well. I think anyone is, whether it's alcoholic or any kind of addiction. I think there's a lot of shame that goes with things that maybe people kind of remember what they did. And yeah, that's the hardest thing is people have blackouts and and don't want to remember. And so in some ways, I don't want to be digging up old wounds.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:16:25 No, I mean, I suppose we have to ask ourselves, don't we? Why are we doing this? Is it important enough to me to bring up something that might cause the other person a lot of pain?
Laurence McCahill 00:16:37 Yeah. So, no. If anything, it's been understanding him better through others since his past as well. Hearing stories from them. and that's, that's been I'd say healing because you know, it's helped close the circle really in terms of the, that loop.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:16:54 What I'm hearing is that you loved him very much.
Laurence McCahill 00:16:58 No, I did, yeah.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:16:59 And still do. Of course.
Laurence McCahill 00:17:01 Still do. Yeah.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:17:02 Yeah. And what I also heard was how you're relating to your son's experience of life, and you're remembering how you felt then, and that's a gift, because quite often we forget. Right. I talked to an educational psychologist recently and developmental psychologist who brought up this very point that has grown up speak and forget what it felt to be young, felt like to be young. And it's not always helpful to the young person when we gloss over all of the challenges. Right. So tell us, if you would, a little bit more then about how your relationship with your dad may consciously or unconsciously be influencing how you are with your sons?
Laurence McCahill 00:17:52 well, I think first thing is trying to be conscious about it. I honestly don't think my dad, probably even my mum or a lot of people, that generation really had time to consciously think, how do I want to parent? It was just either survival or Yeah. I mean, like, I'm just thinking my mum put both her parents, so I think she lost her mum and she was like 31 maybe.
Laurence McCahill 00:18:22 And I think her dad died about 4 or 5 years later. So she was navigating, illness, grief. Had it. She had a health scare of her own. We had lots of extended family around us, a lot of particularly strong Irish women who were a big influence in my early life. But, yeah, there was a lot of a lot of death, really, a lot of grief. Around that time, I remember, aunties and grandmothers passing away. my dad battling through his stuff, so I think. Yeah. And again with the business they ran as well. It was so full on that I think in some ways being able to be even have the time and space to be aware of, like how do I want to be as a parent in the world, I think is a bit of a privilege almost, which I definitely try and honor, and at the same time feeling like sometimes you're like, wow, I said something that I thought I'd never say. Oh, yes.
Laurence McCahill 00:19:10 To hear my dad's voice, you know, so there's that aspect of something that you found really annoying or challenging as a kid, you know, almost replaying that and then having to say, okay, that's not that's not what I was hoping for in terms of how I show up. So there's I think there's a, there's a, there's a vision for how you want to be. and then there's the reality of knowing that, yeah, sometimes we can slip into habits and things that we've learnt or just or in our DNA almost of just, you know, kind of almost intergenerational, DNA that shapes us, which I'm getting more curious about as I get older, not just me being created in a vacuum, but this idea that yeah, we are a byproduct of everyone has come before us for good or bad, and so we inherit some of these traits. but no, I'd say one thing is being around for them because, you know, whilst my parents were busy, they were always around. So, you know, it felt like an environment where I could I knew where they were.
Laurence McCahill 00:20:07 And they went off travelling around the world for a long time. So whilst I do some of that, I tried to be as present as possible. you know, I pulled my way home. I did pretty much all the cooking, which I love as well. So yeah, I've said I've learned from both my parents in terms of things that I've brought to being a parent. My mum was very much food was her language of love. I think she still is. Still is, to be honest. She's forever baking and, sharing her gifts with people, and it tends to be all of our food. so yeah, I definitely like that idea of being able to have friends around. The kids? Friends around. You know, cook for them, you know, be the safe place, be the place that they want to come to which, you know, the kids are both sort of late teens now, but, yeah, it can go from being no. One in the house to suddenly eight of them.
Laurence McCahill 00:21:00 You had this. And yeah, I see that as a joy when they all want to come here and stay here and and stay the night here. So yeah, that again, that sense of hosting, I definitely, I definitely like that idea that we're the place they want to come to, to create that same environment as well where. Yeah, it's inclusive. It's it's, it's family really. It's fun, but it's family.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:21:23 It sounds to me as if you're taking what you experienced as the best bit of the community, your parents hosting when they did that really well, and consciously choosing to create a life around those values and principles. That's what it sounds like. And then moments where we have a blip under stress, possibly, and a bit of pressure where we might wear our habitual intergenerational DNA driven behaviours might surface in a way that, as you said, that wasn't what I was hoping for as a parent. No, but the moment you spot it, you can change it, can't you? Which is what I'm hearing you do.
Laurence McCahill 00:22:13 Yeah, exactly. It's noticing, isn't it? And again, I've learnt a lot from you on this. It's it's being present. It's noticing, you know, awareness. I think it's the first step isn't it. And then it, then it's addressing. I think the other thing is, thinking about it with my dad. I can't ever remember playing anything with him, like, you know, football or anything sort of sporty or, you know, that kind of thing, which I wouldn't say was ever a I was sad about it was more just. Oh, that was weird that I never did that. And so I've, I suppose, tried to sort of address that in some ways with my kids to just to have more experiences with them, because I think a lot of the time with my dad, and mum, to a certain extent, we'd get the odd holiday, but it would be very fleeting and it would tend to be in the UK, it wouldn't be far away. and even then the business is still happening.
Laurence McCahill 00:23:09 So there's stress in the background because you can't really switch off, you know, you're someone else is in charge, you know, you haven't shut the doors. So, so yeah, I think which links to our work a bit is like, I, I'm always a big believer. Experiences are things that give us more joy than, than things. And, I'm always happy to invest in those rather than a nice car or a handbag or, you know, expensive coat or something. So, yeah, giving my kids a love of experiences and music as well. That upbringing around Irish music, really shaped me. And so I've always had a love of music, thanks to my thanks to my dad. And yeah, ever since a young age of taking the kids to gigs, festivals. my youngest, got got a vinyl player the other day, which was, was interesting. And yeah, it kind of made me feel that again, that that kind of trip back down memory lane, really of like, you can get access to music now on Spotify and all these streaming platforms, but the fact that kids are now seeking more analogue, you know, experiences and and seeing how things work, you know, and so, yeah, more tactile things.
Laurence McCahill 00:24:24 So that made me kind of hopeful as well that we're almost going full circle. People are craving more experiences, more community, more, more real life products, not just, kind of bits.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:24:38 And that sounds as if, to me at least, what has largely driven. I'm going to use the word again career. your life's work has has been about, hasn't it? Creating experiences for people is. Tell us more about why you chose to do what you've been doing now for quite some years. But why? Why did you step in this direction? Tell us more about that, Laurence.
Laurence McCahill 00:25:10 In some ways, I wouldn't say it was an intentional choice. I'd say it was almost a I suppose like a lot of people's work or or, purpose is kind of an evolution or maybe process of elimination, I might call it trying lots of things and working out what you don't want. And then over time, the, the sort of statue starts to appear. You know, you sculpt it and you kind of mold it, and then you get off the bits you don't like, and then suddenly it makes sense.
Laurence McCahill 00:25:37 And then you can tell a story about how you always wanted to craft this statue, but actually it was just getting rid of the unhelpful bits. and I say that because, you know, I didn't step into the world of work with a clear idea of what my career would be, if anything, the complete opposite. I studied at university for three years. I'll say to learn, but I'd say probably more than anything to avoid work for three years. And back in the sort of early 90s, it was almost like the last year of student grants. And so there was no fees, there was no real, cost of doing it other than not working, not earning. so, yeah, it was partly for learning, partly for clarity, but also partly just to have an experience to grow up as a human and definitely did that. And then I went travelling for a year and a half and thought I'd find myself in India or around the world, and probably came back with less of an idea of what I wanted to do.
Laurence McCahill 00:26:31 And so, ended up, yeah, sort of trying a few things out and realizing that they weren't for me, and particularly, with a degree in economics, the natural place to go as the City of London. And I was there for about ten months before I quite quickly realized that this isn't the life for me. but yeah, long story short, I would say this idea of a mismatch. I would say, you know, when you've had so much belonging in your life, so much connection in your life, so much love in your life, and then you step into a quite a brutal corporate world. And seeing this kind of almost disconnect between the two. Like, is this what work is about? Like, no one here is no one here is even got any sort of superficial level of connection. And this was, you know, I was thrust into, you know, I was I would say not every job was like this, but I definitely had a culture that I was in, in that company where it was like no one said hello to each other.
Laurence McCahill 00:27:31 I mean, it was like basic human connection was not there. and I could just see my life, and I was like, this is terrifying. This idea of this life. All the people ahead of me were earning huge six figure salaries. They were wanting me to sort of jump on that train and couldn't believe that I wasn't interested in those things because I could see how unhappy they were. I think that was the ultimate. And so again, this quest for meaning, this quest for understanding was definitely with me at an early age. and so, yeah, when I set up a company with my still co-founder Carlos, 20 odd years ago, this was our first company, which was a small web design studio. We, I think we both felt that actually, we I mean, again, Carlos is like, chosen family for me. You know, we were friends together since we were at school. We had similar friends, still friends to this day. So again, that same sense of connection was always there with our friendship circle as well as with family and extended family.
Laurence McCahill 00:28:28 So when we both started out in business and started going to networking events in Brighton, where I just moved to again. Felt like we had to put on an act here. This is not how we want to be in business. You know, I think the first event I went to was a speed networking event, which was terrific. And it was like, can you imagine me sort of not knowing what to wear? Do I wear, like, smart outfit, like trying to be trying to fit in, you know, trying to understand how you fitting into this world. And, as it turned out, I was a novice because the speed networking event there was the, the pros who sat there, who were on the kind of outer ring where they just sit there, and then the newbies have to kind of move from chair to chair. So they have to go from, you know, while the other ones stay there, you have to move around and you just get sold out for like an hour by these people with their little pop up stands and kind of, sort of pitch.
Laurence McCahill 00:29:19 And it was, it was so transactional and not relational. And yeah, that was another example of, yeah, this isn't a good experience as a, as a business owner. And it's certainly not a good experience as a human being. So yeah, we'd end up at lots of these things like conferences and, networking events and it was all peacocking, everyone just trying to look smart and trying to be the most successful person in the room. Everyone knows trying to sell. No one. There's buying. No one's even interested in you or your story. There was no curiosity, no questions. No one asked questions. They just talk at you or look over your shoulder to see who's who's more interesting here that I need to be talking to in this room. so, yeah, again, this kind of disconnect between what I'd experienced and what, what we were experiencing in business led us on this path and me on this path of understanding. Actually, why can't we just create spaces where we feel more at home, where we can be ourselves and be curious and open minded and share the struggles as well as the successes? and hopefully there's other people out there who feel the same.
Laurence McCahill 00:30:26 And so that set us on this path, I think, to to create the events and experiences we want, rather than kind of have to go to other peoples and perform which which wasn't us, since you end up not getting anything from it because you're not being yourself. And that's I think part of my curiosity is how we can help more people just be themselves, you know, in their in their work, in their businesses and through that build more authentic connection.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:30:49 Yes. So what a gift that was, that you had this horrific experience really solidified in your mind. I imagined the direction you wanted to go in and you did it. And the idea that work can be a happy place. Did it feel bold calling your business the Happy Startup School?
Laurence McCahill 00:31:14 No. Didn't it just made perfect sense? Like, I remember the moment me and Carlos were out there, we were talking through ideas, over multiple days or weeks, and we'd, Yeah, we wanted to create a sort of some kind of training wing or training side project, and the idea of a school was there.
Laurence McCahill 00:31:35 but yeah, I think to be honest, no, it didn't, because it's such a simple idea and such a novel idea. And it's it should be common sense, but so did it feel bold? It just felt right. I think more than anything, when we came up with the name. It it tapped into everything. We were about our values. There was a mission there. There was an energy behind it. It was about, you know, startup energy as much as anything. And it was about, yeah. Ultimately, we spent a lot of time at work. Why should we be miserable? and most people, if you ask them what you want for your kids or what you want in life, it's to be happy. let's face it, it's what we all say. But I don't think many people actually either do it or either understand what they mean by that so they don't do enough, understanding of what actually makes us happy and what is. As it turns out, the science of happiness.
Laurence McCahill 00:32:25 What do we know makes us happy? Because it's not, You know, we've been on the planet for a long time. We've got quite a bit of, you know, data behind us. So what can we learn from others in terms of rather than learning from what's gone wrong? And I think this is something I learned when we were in that phase of thinking of the happy start up school, was discovering positive psychology and realizing we can learn as much from people, people's lives, from what's going well as we can from learning from people's lives isn't going so well. And so, yeah, getting on that sort of, I guess, detective tip to work out if we're going to build work and businesses, businesses we want it to be is meaningful for us and we get to choose. And that's the beauty of it.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:33:09 And you know, what do we need to do. How do we need to show up. And what do we need to do to move in the direction of happiness. You know you can't make happiness appear.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:33:22 But what are the actions. How do you want to show up? How do you want to be? What do you want to do to make that possible? Or at least to create the conditions for it? Right. So you create the conditions. My experience of your work, Laurence, you and Carlos, since I've known you now for. Gosh, what is it coming up for 9 or 10 years? Yeah. my experience of it is that you create conditions in which people can be themselves. You've alluded to this already in what you've said, but that's my experience of it right from the beginning I got that. So that was a real gift for which I remain extremely grateful, as I know do many, many others. And then you speaking for you. I mean, Carlos, of course, is on this journey very closely with you, but we're talking about you at the moment as you move through life and you evolve and change, how do you maintain that, you know, how do you continue on this journey of supporting people to have more happiness in their lives, more purpose, more passion, more joy? How do you enable that to continue to grow?
Laurence McCahill 00:34:42 I'm trying to work it out to you.
Laurence McCahill 00:34:44 I would say, okay, you know I'm not done. I don't think any of us are done. You know, life is full of transitions. You know, your kids are growing up. My kids are growing up. One will be going to uni this year. Time becomes more precious as we get older. So, you know, we're never we'd never worked it out fully. And so I'm on this quest to, you know, we create what we most need in the world, I believe. And so, yeah, I wouldn't say we started the happy startup school because we were gurus who want to tell everyone how to do this because we've nailed it. Actually, it was a question. It was almost like a mission question rather than a mission statement, which was like, what would work and business look like if we put happiness at the heart of it? If we if we made happiness our business models, rather than just financials or even an impact report, you know, you see a lot of talk of impact these days, but, we can fall into the same trap of I've made more impact than you.
Laurence McCahill 00:35:49 I've got a bigger purpose than you. Can we even get this up at a summer camp? But some. Yeah, exactly. Some people feel as icky about, you know, talking about what their purpose is as they do about how much money they've made. Because it's almost like you're still comparing yourself and there's a trap there. So I think it is this overlap between all of those things which mean, obviously we need to make money to survive. We need, I think, to feel like we're making a contribution to feel useful in the world. And also it needs to light us up to, It needs to be something that, as you said, is sustainable for us energetically. and that's one thing I think I've been well, I've learned to do is, is to keep checking in to say, how's this helping me? What do I need from this? And for me, I love helping people, but I also love connecting myself. You know, I love community, so we create the community.
Laurence McCahill 00:36:44 I love, new ideas. And so I create my own ideas and I love helping people with those. you know, there's an element of none of this would work if if I didn't need it or colors didn't need it. We see a lot of people who want to start communities, but actually, if you don't need it, then you're not gonna do it or you're not going to stick around. You just want a loyal audience. Yeah, it takes it takes work. Like my parents. It's a way of life. It's not. It's not, it's not a job. So I think continually. keeping things interesting for me. Whether it's new people we meet, new ideas. We're very lucky. We seem to, I don't know, our brand or our, I don't know. The way we show up seems to attract amazing people. And so we constantly get fed new stories and new energy that comes from that. And so, yeah, it's very much a two way street. I would say it's not like we're, I don't know, in a school taking the whole sort of, you know, teaching the same class every year.
Laurence McCahill 00:37:50 We know we get a new class and then we've got the old class coming back, and we got this kind of lovely rolling community that exists, some people who've been with us for ten years and other people for ten weeks. And so, yeah, I'd say I get a lot of energy from seeing new people come through the community and the energy I get from that and connecting those people as well. It's not just about all these people in silos. There's there's, as you know, so many great people in our community that we get to connect with, and they have these random collisions. And next thing they're off creating a project together. And yeah, that's that's really that really feeds me. Yeah, I'd say one of the joys of this work, I think, is connecting great people and and seeing what unfolds. And sometimes you don't have visibility on that, but you hear the stories later and that's. Yeah, that's that keeps me going because I know that there's a serendipity to it and there's a magic to it where, like you said, you create these conditions and you can't control the outcome.
Laurence McCahill 00:38:45 And in some ways that's the most frustrating bit and the best bit.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:38:50 What's frustrating about it.
Laurence McCahill 00:38:52 I think frustrating from almost like a business point of view. You know if you talk to any sort of business coach or mentor they'll be like you need to, you know, have a sort of an outcome and an ROI for anyone coming to an event or joining the program. And in some ways, those things are probably easier to sell, because you can promise the seven figure salary or the get your first thousand followers or, you know, find your co-founder. but that just takes the fun out of it for me, because I don't want to be working with all these people on one problem solving, one goal for them. and actually, you can't promise that. Anyway, it's just a sales quiz. I think what we can promise is we, like you said, create spaces where these things unfold. And yeah, you trust that people get what they need from it or from each other. And that's that's the beauty of it.
Laurence McCahill 00:39:45 So it's. Yeah.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:39:47 That sounds like to me, it's like, you know, your philosophy, if I may attempt to sum it up, is something like show up. See what happens.
Laurence McCahill 00:39:56 Well, trust. I would say trust. yeah. There's a lot of trust. Trust in us. You know, we're starting a new cohort of our program next week. You know, people are signing up. They trust they need to trust us. They need to place trust in us as hosts and facilitators and guides, so we don't take that lightly. Or if someone comes to a summer camp or our altitude retreats, they, you know, I mean, it amazes me. The first one we did 10 or 12 years ago, I was chatting to a lady by the fire pit and she, she was, I think Asian origin. But she lived in New York and she'd come on on her own on a plane to this farm in the middle of Sussex without knowing anyone there, just off the basis of something I'd written.
Laurence McCahill 00:40:40 And she immediately connected on, on it. And her partner was like, you going where you don't know anyone. And that just blew me away. That really blew me away, because it was just that that sort of, showed me the responsibility that we have in some ways of like, yeah, when people trust us in that way, we need to honor that. And therefore but then when they do that, they, they trust in themselves as well. Like they trust themselves to have that. No, no, something feels right about this. You know, something feels right. There's something in me that I need to bring out or these people have something that I can learn from or or, you know, I need to be more around more of these people. And so, yeah, the trust thing is, is huge because I see our job almost as like building trust with people so that they feel safe even before they get to any of these things. Or maybe they never even join anything we do.
Laurence McCahill 00:41:29 There's a lot of people who follow us who've never joined anything we do, but they feel very connected to it. And they they still learn a lot from it, just by sort of being around the sort of the world we create. So. So yeah, I think trusting, trusting in themselves, trusting in us and then trusting in each other. And I think when you do that, then your guards down, you can be yourself. You can open up the works down almost, you know, whereas if you go to a networking event, you don't know anyone. You don't really trust the people who run it. You're not quite sure what it's about. Everyone's got their guard up and it and it's just a lot more of a different energy.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:42:06 Let's call it an entirely different experience. And I'm wondering in all of this, all of the journey, you know, going right back to what we were talking about at the beginning with your home life as a young person, can you identify moments where you experienced fear, your scary moments, difficult moments that were hard to get through? You got through them, but were challenging in that way?
Laurence McCahill 00:42:38 Yeah.
Laurence McCahill 00:42:39 I mean, fear of loss. I would say, having been through a lot of grief in my early life, you know, certainly. Well, I'd say grief, but I was quite young when some of the, when I lost my grandparents. but being around that world. So like, when, you know, it's possible to lose people close to you. Definitely a fear of loss, you know. So feeling more, fragile, I suppose, you know, with your parents thinking. Oh, God. And then my dad got, really ill when? When I was in sixth form, so I was about 16 or 17. He was on life support for a long time. He had pneumonia, but it kind of just accelerated. So yeah, it was touch and go for a long time. So that was really challenging. and yeah, after everything we've been through with his drinking, he'd kind of finished drinking at that point. But yeah. So that was hard. So I think loss.
Laurence McCahill 00:43:29 Yeah. Fear of loss. I would say. Yeah. I don't know I think yeah. Loss and grief I would say would be the big ones. and later in life that changed because I think when you've lost people close to you, then it's about, how do I make the most of the time I've got almost to honor them. let me close. Had a very good friend who was one of our circle who died when we were about 33. I think he was 34. And yeah, that really hit me because it was almost and this was before we started the happy start school. but this idea that he never got to have kids, he never got to experience some of the things we got to experience. So in some ways, yeah, this, this work and this kind of mission is really also about making the most of the time we got here. Really. It's it's it's a cliche, but it's, you know, cruelly short. And for some people it's even shorter. And so I almost feel like it's a waste if we, if we, don't use this time.
Laurence McCahill 00:44:37 So I'd say fear of regret is a big thing which drove me. Or it still drives me. And fear of fear of wasting talent or wasting an idea or wasting a dream or, you know, wasting a relationship. You know, all of those things drive me to this day.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:44:58 it sounds as if in. Sorry, did you want to continue?
Laurence McCahill 00:45:01 I was just gonna say. And, Yeah, I think with others, too, there's that fear Sometimes the fear of the fear of getting it wrong is is greater than the fear of regret. But for me, it's always been the other way around. Yeah, I'd rather get it wrong than than not try.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:45:17 Yeah, I can relate to that. And isn't it interesting that recognizing our fears can be so helpful? Because then we can, if we wish to make the conscious choices that respond with understanding to those fears. The fear of loss, the fear of regret drives you, propels you to make the choices you do, to prioritize family, community, happiness, to make sure that you use your gifts Laurence in the very best way you can.
Laurence McCahill 00:45:54 Yeah. And it goes back to that trust thing, I think, of trusting that you have something that you can that you can gift to someone else without saying it too grandiose. But yeah, sometimes Just being yourself is a gift. You know, we do a few exercises on our program and we talk about effortless impact, like how do you how can you make impact in an effortless way. And again, it's easier said than done. And it's not to say there's a lack of effort, but like what feels easy to you, that maybe feels profound to someone else. And often people come out of that going. What if I could just make impact by being me? I'm like, why do I need to change the world? Why do I need to, create this thing? Actually, as I've discovered my dad, he could just. And this is some of the stories I heard after he passed away. People. I showed up to his funeral. Share these stories of, like, he would show up to their house when they were going through a challenging time, when he would go up to Corby, where my dad's parents were from in the Midlands.
Laurence McCahill 00:46:50 and he would just turn up with a bag of sandwiches that my mum made and a, cup of tea and just talked through all the problems. And, you know, he was like the kind of, guerrilla life coach, you know, in a kind of tough Irish exterior, but you had a heart of gold. And he. And because he'd been through a lot of pain in his own life, he could just see that pain in others, almost like a radar. And so, you know, it was amazing to me to hear these stories because it was almost like, yeah, just him being himself and being real and being relatable to others. No. No fixing. No. You need to do this. Just sitting there listening and hearing them out. You know, it was was really powerful for them. And so these stories kept coming back of how much they they valued those conversations because, it was just a. Yeah. Being there for someone.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:47:39 Yes. My goodness, that's such a powerful reminder that if we can just realize that we are enough, that showing up as ourselves, not pretending to be anything else is more than enough.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:47:57 It's not even more than enough. It's what everyone wants, isn't it? Yeah. We want that from each other. Just be yourself.
Laurence McCahill 00:48:05 Don't pretend it gives people permissions, isn't it? It's like, One of my favorite Ted talks is the art of being yourself. Yeah. Caroline McCue. But she says it's it's like we look at some of these figures, who we, we think are superhuman, and we think they've got qualities that none of us have, but actually, they're the ones being themselves. And so they they seem superhuman because they're so comfortable in their own skin. Yeah. They're so authentic in how they show up that they, Yeah, they seem like they've got qualities that we kind of dream of. And actually, we've all got access to that, you know, to to sort of stand taller and, and feel bigger just by being confident in what we bring. so yeah, I think that's something I hope our work does as well, is instill that confidence and belief in people that they have something that they don't need to be someone else or create something new even to to do that.
Laurence McCahill 00:49:01 But actually just to have that inner belief of like, yeah, I'm on the right path. I am, I have got a lot of things that I haven't even given myself credit for as well, because we can always beat ourselves up about the things we've not done, rather than the things we we have done or the qualities we do have. So yeah, I think that's why I found community to be so important, because we get these reflections back that otherwise we wouldn't we wouldn't find ourselves. And so that makes us feel and stand taller, I feel.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:49:28 Yes. It's like a beautiful interconnected circle, isn't it, that you have created by being yourselves and being open to that and courageous enough to do that. So, Laurence, as you look forward as best you can, given everything you've achieved and looking at where you are now, what does Fearless Forward mean to you.
Laurence McCahill 00:50:03 Link to what I've talked about already is. Not overthinking things is like trusting, you know, trusting in what's next in.
Laurence McCahill 00:50:19 Not regretting, you know, not regretting not doing something rather than doing it. I'm always a believer in why not? Rather than why. So, as Carlos will testify. so, yeah, I think again, talking about all the stuff we talked about is like benefiting from the community we've built ourselves of, you know, leaning on that when we need to, following this thread of curiosity which has got got me and us this far, you know, almost everything we've done has been based on a, serendipitous connection rather than something we'd planned out. You know, altitude, the retreat we run that you, you know, are always part of and help with is as a result of our friend Jack, who was on this podcast already. a lot of the trips we've done around the world to various locations have all been people we've met. collaborations we've had have all come out of, you know, any projects we've had have all come out the people first rather than the planned first. And so it's always a good reminder because I think as we grow and we've been doing this 12 years, it's easy to sort of make it a lot more structured and, you know, make it a proper business, you know.
Laurence McCahill 00:51:35 And actually for me, it always takes the fun out of it. And it always, always makes it closes down the door to, to the opportunities that we do have. And again it's all about people for me. So yeah as I look forward I would hope to just meet more, more amazing people really and to be open to that. And as my kids get older and hopefully there's a bit more freedom of time and movement as well, to be able to follow some of those, follow up those opportunities to travel more and to see the world more and to connect with more people because, yeah, we're, we're all pretty similar, really, wherever we're based. And we have quite a global community. So, yeah, I'd love to go maybe and visit some of these people that we've got to know many of them online as well. And yeah, bring some of this good stuff to, to other parts of the world. but yeah, not trying to write the plan, but to follow the follow the, the energy and trust.
Laurence McCahill 00:52:30 Like we said.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:52:33 Laurence, thank you very much for this conversation.
Laurence McCahill 00:52:36 Thank you Sally, it's a pleasure.
Sally Anne-Marie 00:52:38 Laurence grew up in a world full of warmth, music and belonging, and with conflict and addiction. The former helped him navigate the latter, and they still do. Looking back on his relationship with his father. He's taking forward not a polished lesson, but a practice of noticing what he's inherited, keeping what feels true, and trying not to pass on what caused harm. That's hard, unglamorous work, and it's probably the most important work any parent or leader can do. All this and more has informed Laurence's need to build community around safe, human centered spaces that cultivate connection, openness and trust, following what feels true and growing from there. Thank you for listening. Fearless forward is edited and produced by Rob Laurence. I'll be back with you in two weeks for our next conversation about how leaders have faced their fears. To be sure of catching it, go to Fearless Forward or subscribe to my weekly bulletin at Skillful Leaders.