Rob Mazurek – Abstractivist

In this episode, Tim sits down with Rob Mazurek — composer, painter, and self-proclaimed abstractivist — for a wide-ranging conversation about what it looks like to build a life entirely around creative vision. Rob traces his path from Chicago's boundary-pushing music scene of the '90s through his current life in Marfa, Texas, where he and his wife have built a low-overhead, high-quality existence that allows him to keep making exactly the work he wants to make. He talks candidly about the financial realities of that life — the relationships with festival directors and venue operators that have allowed him to command respectable fees over decades, the deliberate choice to keep expenses low, and the honest admission that at 60, he has neither investments nor life insurance and knows it's time to change that. Throughout the conversation, Rob brings the same openness and curiosity he applies to his art to questions about money, and what emerges is a portrait of someone who has always prioritized creative integrity, and is ready to think seriously about what comes next.

Rob's question for Tim: What should I do concerning investment strategies and life insurance? I have neither.

Key Takeaways:

1. Rob describes himself as an abstractivist, a term he coined in the ‘90s to capture the holistic nature of his work across music, art, and performance.
2. His move to Marfa came almost by accident, and what started as a getaway trip turned into a life decision when his wife suggested they consider staying, drawn by the low cost of living, the beauty of the landscape, and the manageable access to El Paso's airport.
3. Rob's ability to keep touring economically viable comes from decades of fostering direct relationships with festival directors and venue operators in Europe, combined with a deliberate decision to streamline his setup so he can travel with everything as carry-on luggage.
4. He describes his financial philosophy as doing the work because he loves it and being grateful that it also pays, rather than doing it for money — a distinction he holds with genuine pride, even as he acknowledges the life it produces is a modest one.
5. Rob has kept his overhead deliberately low in Marfa, prioritizing spending on quality food, a reliable car for the long drive to the airport, and little else — a conscious trade-off that has allowed him to sustain a creative life without significant financial stress.

Links:
Send me a question to be answered on a future episode.
Sign up for the Keep It Easy newsletter.
Rob's website
Rob's label

What is The Thing We Never Talk About?

The Thing We Never Talk About is an educational podcast about personal finance for creatives and other weirdos. We'll discuss managing cash flow with a lumpy income, when to save & when to invest, and how to reduce stress & build confidence when it comes to your money. No hot stock tips, no complicated strategies, and no finance bro jargon. We'll hear from artists, musicians, creative professionals, and other weirdos about how they navigate these questions for themselves. The Thing We Never Talk About is hosted by Timothy Iseler, CFP®, a former recording & touring audio engineer with 18 years experience in the music industry.

Timothy Iseler: Rob, I end every
conversation with a question for my

guest, and I, I wanted to get that
last question out of the way before

we got to this because it's exactly
what you were just talking about.

your question is: What should
I do concerning investment

strategies and life insurance?

I have Neither.

So it's ex- exactly what
you were talking about.

Welcome to The Thing We Never Talk About.

My name is Tim Iseler.

I'm a certified financial planner, and I
run my own independent financial advisory

business, helping musicians, artists,
and other people with weird jobs make

smarter decisions with their money.

You can learn more at iselerfinancial.com.

If you have a question about money or
personal finance, please send it to me

by visiting iselerfinancial.com/podcast,

and I will answer it in a future episode.

And if you enjoy this show,
please share it with a friend.

After that, please like and subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts.

Today I'm speaking with Rob Mazurek.

He's a composer, musician, visual artist,
and self-proclaimed abstractivist.

I've known Rob for about 25 years,
going back to my days as a recording

engineer in Chicago, where he was
already a central figure in Chicago's

cross-pollinating music scene in the '90s.

He's a founding member of the Chicago
Underground Jazz Ensemble, Isotope 217,

and the Exploding Star Orchestra, as
well as a collaborator on projects with

Tortoise, Jim O'Rourke, and many other
Chicago jazz and indie rock artists.

I was lucky enough to work with
Rob on a few projects, including

Sam Prekop's second solo album.

These days Rob lives in Marfa, Texas,
where he continues to create pretty much

all the time, including recording albums,
touring internationally, painting and art

exhibitions, composing an experimental
opera, and even scoring films.

You can learn more at robmazurek.com,

and Mazurek is spelled M-A-Z-U-R-E-K, or
through his label, International Anthem,

which you can find at intlanthem.com.

So thank you for being here, and
please enjoy this conversation

with abstractivist Rob Mazurek

robert’s iPhone: how about now?

Timothy Iseler: I got you loud and clear.

robert’s iPhone: That's unbelievable, man.

It's good to see you, brother.

Timothy Iseler: How you doing, buddy?

robert’s iPhone: I'm doing fantastic, man

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Good to see you

robert’s iPhone: Yeah, man.

Jesus.

Unbelievable

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Are you in Marfa today?

robert’s iPhone: I am in Marfa, yes.

Yeah.

How's

Timothy Iseler: everything down there?

robert’s iPhone: It's, uh…

it's always beautiful here.

You know what I mean?

So

Timothy Iseler: yeah

robert’s iPhone: kind of insane.

It's still, it's still the oasis that, you
know, in the beginning I thought it was.

So now that we're here almost 12
years, we've, we've had the house for

10 years, but we've been living here
for almost 12 years and, uh, it's

still the absolute magical place.

When I come home from Europe and tours
and other things, you know, I get

halfway back from El Paso and it's…

All the stress just rolls off.

The skies open.

I mean, it's okay if that happens
two or three times, but it's hundreds

of times now, so it's like…

And it's still absolutely
magical, you know?

Timothy Iseler: what brought
you down there the first time?

robert’s iPhone: The very first
time I played an event for Ballroom

Marfa, you know, one, you know, one
of the foundations here, the Chicago

Underground Duo played 20 years ago.

Ballroom Marfa, uh, I, I think is 21
or 22 years old now, so it was really

in the beginning stages of that place.

But they were programming, uh, amazing
music when it could come through

because it's a hard route, you know?

Usually on the way, on the way
from either Dallas, Austin, or

Houston on the way to Tucson, right?

You're well aware of that.

But you still have to go pretty
far south to, to come to Marfa.

Anyway, we were on a duo tour,
and they had asked us to play in

Marfa, and being the, you know…

I love Donald Judd and that
whole aesthetic and, and

the artists around that.

You know, John Chamberlain, Dan
Flavin exa- uh, uh, for example,

um So yeah, they asked us to play.

We came down here and played for
the first time and, and did the

whole thing, did, did the Chinati
tour and Judd, Judd Foundation tour,

and just loved the place, you know.

But I have to admit, I never,
I never thought of living here.

I thought, this is a great pl-
great place to, to visit, you know.

and then what, like, uh, 12
years ago, me and my wife Brit…

Uh, you met Brit.

Of course you met Brit.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah

robert’s iPhone: we, we almost bought
a house out, just outside of Chicago.

We had it on hold.

Everything was cool.

Financing was fine.

And then we, they did the inspection
and the, and the foundation was cracked.

So it'd cost another 30, $40,000
and the people didn't wanna budge.

So that put us out of, out
of the price range, you know?

But because of that, for some
reason, I just said, "Brit, let's

just take a trip or somewhere."

'Cause we had been looking for a house for
a while, you know, something that we could

afford, and, uh, it's really difficult.

We thought we found the perfect
house and, uh, it fell through.

So I took Brit out here to Marfa just
to get away and, you know, we were here

two days and Brit is, Brit says, um, "Do
you think we can live here, move here?"

And I was like, "Oh my God,
I didn't even think of that."

But really the only, uh, my only
main concern was being somewhat

close to an airport, you know,
'cause of all the traveling.

So we rented a place for three months,
during which time I had a tour in

Europe for like a week or something.

So I went to the El Paso Airport,
did all of that stuff, came back,

and I said, "This isn't bad at all."

You know?

I s- uh, I thought sometimes you'll spend
two hours in traffic in Chicago just

trying to get to the airport, you know.

So what's three hours with zero
traffic and one of the most

easy airports in the country?

El Paso Airport is just, you waltz
in there and get on the plane.

It's beautiful, you know.

So I hope that wasn't
too long of an answer.

Timothy Iseler: No, that's perfect.

That is perfect.

Should we, should we get into it?

I mean, I guess we're kind
of already into it, but

robert’s iPhone: summer.

I thought we were already into it,

Timothy Iseler: yeah, let's stay in it

robert’s iPhone: but how,
how are you doing, man?

Is everything cool with you?

Timothy Iseler: Everything's cool with me.

Yeah, i'm in Durham, North Carolina.

I've been here for just over nine years.

robert’s iPhone: Nine years

Timothy Iseler: So yeah, I moved here
in 2017, got off the road in 2019

, started a whole new career and, uh,

robert’s iPhone: That's inspiring, man.

You know what I'm saying?

Timothy Iseler: thank you.

robert’s iPhone: did you have too
much of the, the on the road type

of thing, or was it just a, you

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, it

robert’s iPhone: not to mention music
industry stuff and the whole thing

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, it
was too much on the road.

Like, the last time I saw you for sure,
and then for several years around that,

I was just living out of my suitcase.

I had

robert’s iPhone: Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Storage in Chicago,
and I was a total mercenary, just like

one tour to the next tour to the tour.

yeah, and that like, when that
stopped being fun it stopped

being fun in a big way, you

robert’s iPhone: Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: couple of years to find
something else that would bring back

the, the kind of excitement I had about
touring and being an audio engineer,

and I just couldn't really find it.

Um, so I'd been looking for a little
while for something else to do, and

I kind of landed on this idea that I
could help people in this way, you know?

'Cause I knew a lot of people who
made their livings doing weird jobs

where like, you know, they don't…

They're not comfortable talking to regular
financial professionals, and those people

are not comfortable talking to them.

So I thought that would be a place or
a, you know, a way that I could help

the people that I've worked with.

robert’s iPhone: An incredible
service, man, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, I hope so

robert’s iPhone: follow the stuff on
Instagram and, and, you know, and other

things in your, your emails and stuff,
and, uh, I've been meaning to talk

to you for a while, as you know, so
it's nice to, to catch up in this way.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, well, here we are

robert’s iPhone: Here
we are on planet Earth

Timothy Iseler: Rob, what do you
tell people you do for a living?

robert’s iPhone: I guess, uh, I
say composer, performer, artist,

Timothy Iseler: Okay,

' robert’s iPhone: course, most of
the time with the trumpet, you know.

A lot of times with, also with electronics
and voice, bells, other things, you know.

And the art thing, painting,
sculpture, installations, you know.

but I, I do call myself an abstractivist.

Timothy Iseler: Oh, did you make that up?

robert’s iPhone: I, I started
using that word around 1999

Timothy Iseler: Wow.

robert’s iPhone: And, uh, just because,
yeah, you know, I was getting…

Uh, I was already, not just
doing music, but painting and

doing stuff like that too.

So I was trying to think of
a more, uh, holistic way of

expressing what I do, you know?

So I think it was the f- the fir- the
first record that used that language

was probably, uh, 99 Explosions,
the, uh, Orton Socket record.

I did all electronic records.

I know you've heard that, on Jim
O'Rourke's, uh, Muakai label.

And, uh,

I just liked this idea of abstractivist
really means, you know, actively

engaged in abstracting things
to their most essential thing.

So whether that's a composition, whether
that's a painting, whether that's cooking

something, whether that's, you know,
sweeping the floor, you know what I mean?

It could be anything, you know.

Of course, I'm a, I've been a
practicing Buddhist for many years

too, so it kind of engages with,
with that thought a, a little bit.

But yeah, using that term, the,
uh, uh, an abstractivist, I think

really gets more to the core of
what I, I, I think I do, you know?

Timothy Iseler: You said you're a trumpet
player . Did you used to play cornet?

robert’s iPhone: Well, you know, I
started on trumpet, so, actually no,

uh, 10 years old I started on cornet.

And then I moved to trumpet because
in, in high school they said if

you're serious about it, you should
play trumpet, so I moved to trumpet.

And then, uh, for those first earlier
three records I did, actually just the

first one called Band Facing East, which I
recorded I think in '96 or something like

that, '95 or something, I played trumpet.

And then, because the instrument always
felt too long to me and I was getting

into listening a lot to Don Cherry,
you know, and, uh, that type of stuff.

Don Cherry was using a pocket trumpet,
um, and he was talking about how when

the bell of the horn is closer to
your ear, it's a different experience.

So then I, I went to the Schilke
factory in Chicago, which is a

famous trumpet maker in Chicago And,
uh, I, I bought my first cornet.

So when I started playing cornet,
it was only cornet then, so I

played cornet until, probably
until about five years ago.

Timothy Iseler: Okay

robert’s iPhone: Course, the
modular synth stuff, electronics,

you know, computer music, all that
wa- was in tandem with all of that.

But then, you know, I, I don't know if
you want me to go through the history

here, but then I, I I was playing in
Istanbul, I had a concert in Istanbul,

and I heard this instrument called the
zurna, Z-U-R-N-A, which had this real

double reed nasally type of sound to it.

And I said, "If only there
was a brass instrument that

sounded like this," you know?

As soon as I got back from
Istanbul, the guy who fixes my

horns in Chicago, whose name is Dr.

Valve, He posted this piccolo
trumpet, gold-plated piccolo trumpet,

three-valve piccolo trumpet, and he
says, "This is my hot rod of trumpets.

I'm selling it because it's, it's
unplayable because it doesn't, because

it doesn't have the fourth valve."

Now, normally piccolo trumpets
are, are played Baroque music.

For Baroque music, you need the fourth
valve on the, on the piccolo trumpet

'cause that gives you a fourth lower to,
to play the music, and all this Baroque

music was made for the four, four valve.

So he was like, "Yeah, maybe you can't
do something with that instrument, but

I can do something with that instrument,
you know, as a creative musician."

A- and I got that thing, and it was just
sang like, you know, the sky opening.

So I p- I p- then, then all of a
sudden I played exclusively piccolo

trumpet, which also the frequency of
the instrument paired very well with

playing it through modular synthesizers.

Summarizing the, the frequency of
the thing was because it was a little

higher pitched and a little quicker air.

Not quite sure of the physics of it,
but it really worked well with, with a

lot of modular synth stuff I was doing.

And I played that exclusively for kind
of three years Until I picked up this

trumpet that was gifted to me by the,
the, the legendary great Bill Dixon,

legendary trumpet player and composer
who passed away s- uh, uh, 10 years ago.

I was gifted the horn, but I, I
couldn't get a sound out of it.

And I think I'm getting too technical here
with, with the trumpet stuff, but, but,

but, but playing that piccolo trumpet,
you learn a different way of projecting

and pushing s- air through a horn.

S- so then I, I picked up the Bill
Dixon trumpet one day, and it just sang

like angels from heaven, man, you know?

And I was like, "Oh my God."

So since that time I've…

I'm, I'm playing trumpet, which is one
of Bill Dixon's trumpets, and, uh, this

piccolo trumpet, and I kinda take…

That, that's my, that's my touring
setup along with, you know, a

sampler and some other things.

Flutes, bells, and stuff

Timothy Iseler: So you play with s-
modular synthesis, when I met you,

you were … Well, I, I came from the
indie rock side, so I kind of knew

your work with people like Tortoise,
with people like Jim O'Rourke,

robert’s iPhone: Ja

Timothy Iseler: your background is
in jazz, and I wondered what was it

about, either about you as a person
or about Chicago in the '90s that

kind of encouraged that blurring of
lines or that crossing of genres?

robert’s iPhone: I was kind of always
into this idea of, experimentation

and shifting things around.

I was very lucky to have
a, an amazing teacher, Dr.

Ralph Dodds, who used to teach
at, uh, Roosevelt University.

When I was, you know, 16, 17, before I
even moved to Chicago, I was studying

also classical composition with him
and, and ear training and these things.

But he, he was a teacher who said to
me, "Okay, it's okay that you wanna

do music, but, but also, uh, you
have to know about art, you have to

know about literature, you have to
know about, you know, poetry and, and

other things other than, just being
centered on this one thing," you know?

which was pretty broad at the time
'cause even when I was 16, 17, I was

listening to Miles and, and Sun Ra
and all this stuff, but I was also

poring over scores by Prokofiev and
Stravinsky and Bartók, you know.

So I was also…

I was already doing kind of
different things in that realm.

So when I moved, moved to Chicago, I
had that kind of sensibility and idea of

d- don't get focused just on one thing.

Keep an open mind.

So, when the '90s came and I
met Jeff Parker came to town,

you know, from, from Boston.

He was at Berkeley, and some people
centered around that, and I met the guys

from, that would become Tortoise, you
know, McEntire and John Herndon and Dan

and, uh, Doug McCombs and, and all the…

And all people around that thing too,
like you s- you know, Jim O'Rourke,

David Grubbs, you know, people who
were, who were also approaching

things from a different angle than
what I was approaching it from.

So having this kind of melting pot
idea already and then adding to

that with all these great musicians
and friends who were, who were

getting into everything, you know,
listening to, uh, from King Tubby to

Zanuckes to, to Autechre, you know.

Also all the super cool drum and
bass stuff that was happening in

the, in the '90s and all of us
being super excited about that.

And, uh, it, it, it really create-
created a, a scenario of kinda

complete openness, you know?

And also a group of people

That wa- that it was a common
thing to, to, to draw from

all these different places.

Whereas like in the '80s and stuff, you
know, when I was coming up in Chicago,

a lot of, a lot of people, there were
the mainstream jazz guys, and there

were the avant-garde jazz guys, and
there was this, and girls, and theys

you know, uh, that were a little more
like this, you know, a little more,

not as holistic as I wanted to go.

So I, you know, I, I lost
friends because of this.

So, uh, you know, because I wanted to
open up, some friends of mine wanted to

close in and keep me closed in, you know?

And I, I, I really thank them for pushing
that because that made me push out harder.

I kind of have a history of even
when I was growing up as a kid and,

you know, wanting to play, play
music for a living and stuff, I was

really discouraged from, from you
know, have something to fall back on.

You know, do blah, blah, blah.

Go to, go to university.

Maybe you can teach.

And my thing was like, "I'm
gonna be a performer, man."

You know what I'm saying?

And I'm gonna pursue this artistic
vision to, till, you know, if I can't

do that, then forget it, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Hmm

robert’s iPhone: So yeah, going back
to your question about, about the

'90s in Chicago, that was just a
thing that just blew everything apart.

And I was like, "Wow, I can make a
computer music record if I want."

You know, if I focus in enough and
make something interesting enough that,

that, that could be that, you know.

Or using pedals or using modular
synthesizers or, or, uh, uh, just

trying all different combinations
of instruments and also different,

uh, ways of approaching stuff.

And I was lucky enough to have groups
that we started like Chicago Underground

and, that I started with Jeff Parker, and
Chad Taylor came in a little later, and

people like Josh Abrams, Robert Barry.

A lot of people came through that group,
and we tried many different things.

And then soon after Isotope 217 started,
you know, and that group also had such a

Open and unique way of creating
things that, uh, that was really,

really the start of it all, the
start of really getting into

finding something new and exciting.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

you, you've mentioned right now you're
playing a trumpet, which is, you know,

a fairly easy instrument to travel with,
you've mentioned your modular synth rig.

How does that particular setup
make the economic side of touring

and performing viable for you?

Because if, say for example , if you
were a guitar player and you'd have

to fly with your guitar and you'd
have to have an amp and everything,

everything becomes a little bit harder.

Whereas it seems like with your
sit-u- setup, you can kind of hop

on a plane or hop on a train and go
just about anywhere and make it work.

robert’s iPhone: You know, be- m-
making an art form out of that was also,

was also a, another thing, you know?

'Cause, 'cause the music I'm making is
still, you know, I don't know if it's

adapting to a, uh, a situation because
I've always been like really focused

on only doing what I wanna do and,
and, and trying to do it excellently.

I stopped taking the modular
synthesizers 'cause, 'cause they were

getting beat up too much on planes.

So, so the last, whatever, 10
years, I, I create the stuff

and I dump it on my sampler.

So, you know, so I got a couple of
those SP-404s, you know, those Roland

things, and, uh, I dump everything on
the sampler so it's very compact and I

use that, and I have the trumpet case,
I take everything on the plane with me,

you know, I try not to check anything.

But I also, I have these bells that
my mother made when she passed away,

i, so I take them everywhere too.

They symbolize this mother energy,
and they're, they're kind of compact

and I can take them everywhere and
have that, the, the power from that.

I started using my voice a lot, more
like vocalizing, kind of yelling,

you know, but, but in a certain way.

And part of that reason was
what you're talking about.

I didn't, I didn't wanna have to
take a, a, check a suitcase or two

filled with gear and hoping, and, and
hoping that it would still be turn

on when I got somewhere, you know?

So because of that, there was, was
this kind of a, a, a adaptation to,

to how I'm performing, you know,
and how I'm presenting this stuff.

And so far it's worked.

We did this, you know, we had this
Chicago Underground Duo record that

came out just last year with a lot of
modular stuff on it and synthesizer

stuff, which I dumped all down to the,
to the SP-404 and and a, and a little

OP-1 synthesizer, which is amazing.

I just learned to adapt that way because
number one, you know, you're not getting

paid a tremendous amount of money to
play creative, weird music, you know?

But I, you know, I'm 60 now.

I've been doing this a long time, so I, I,
I do okay with fees and things, you know?

It's like actually I'm, I'm,
I'm pretty proud of doing

pretty well with that, you know.

But it's definitely, definitely
something that I have to think

about, you know, 'cause, all this
stuff adds up in the end, you know?

And it all c- as you know, it all
comes out of the tour budget, so

it's not, um, it's, it's not, it's
not, uh, free, mysterious money.

You know what I mean?

Or you have to get two bags instead of
one or something, you know, or whatever.

Or you have to upgrade your seat
because you're sitting in, in the

middle in some crazy place, you know,
on a, on a eight-hour flight, you know.

You have to upgrade and get, get
the, get that all together, you know.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah.

You mentioned something, I don't know
the exact words, but something to the

effect of just wanna make, you wanna
make the music that you wanna make.

You wanna make something that
you love and you're proud of.

robert’s iPhone: Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Some of your
projects certainly, because of the

number of people involved, kind of
require more funding than others.

Like a

robert’s iPhone: Chicago

Timothy Iseler: Underground
Duo, like the two of you guys

can travel pretty light and

robert’s iPhone: Yeah

Timothy Iseler: but some, some
of those ensembles obviously

need different kinds of backing.

To what extent does money come in
when you're choosing what to do next?

Is it, is it an afterthought,
like, "Here's what I've done.

How do we find the funding?"

Or is it ever the other way
around where somebody's like, you

know, "Hey, we have some money.

You know, what show do you wanna put on?"

Or, "What record do you wanna put out?"

robert’s iPhone: Yeah.

I mean, it's both ways, but, uh, I,
I've been lucky to develop, like,

friendships with a lot directors of
festivals, especially in Europe, and

people who run series who have some
kind of built-in funding already.

so when I do, like Exploding Star
Orchestra, which has usually 8 to 15

people in it, you know, I tell them,
"This is what it costs, and if you can…"

if they can do it, they can do it.

If they, if they can't, then okay, we'll
wait till w- we can do it or we'll do it

another, another year or we don't do it."

You know?

I'm pretty strict with that 'cause I, I
like to pay my musicians a certain amount

of money, and it's higher th- than,
than just from what I hear around, you

know, 'cause I want it to be comfortable
and, and excellent for everybody.

You know, from touring and stuff,
I, I, I spent many years in a van

and s- and sleeping on, you know,
cat piss fucking couches and stuff.

You know what I mean?

But it had to get to a point where
you have to say, "This is the thing."

Not to mention inflation, right?

So, you know, I'm appalled to learn
that s- some of these clubs I used

to play in Chicago in the '80s
and early '90s are paying the same

amount like in 2026 or even a little
lower th- than, than that rate.

I'm like, "How is that even possible?"

You know what I'm saying?

And because of that, I, you know, I
stopped playing these places mainly 'cause

I moved out of Chicago, but, but, but
also playing $50 gigs and it's good for

developing and s- and everything, but
when you get to a, a s- a certain, you

wanna raise the bar a little bit as you,
as you move along here in life, you know?

so like I said, I was fostering,
relationships with directors, with

people doing stuff, so, and also record
labels, or club owners, you know.

And the ones that are realize
what's happening, I mean, I

mean, they also realize that,
that the cost of living goes up.

The, you know, especially in the last…

I mean, you can talk more about this, but
it seems like in the last, maybe since the

pandemic, things have been, uh, kind of
out of control and, and, and for some make

it almost impossible to tour or do that.

I know plenty of musicians who are
touring and, and losing money, and I, I

somehow don't understand that so much.

But, I just try not to put myse- myself
in, in any situation where, where

I'm, I'm going out to, to lose money.

Matter of fact, it's, it's quite
the opposite and I'm able to command

certain fees for certain things.

and like I said, that's because
I've fostered these relationships

over, over a certain amount of year.

And the music sounds great.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

robert’s iPhone: know, it's

Timothy Iseler: you

robert’s iPhone: let's
not forget that, you know.

A- and interesting because it, you
know, I'm not sitting around at home

constantly trying to reinvent myself,
but I'm, I'm still super interested in

creating and I have this fountain of
energy and, and inspiration that just

keeps me, keeps me creating, uh, you know.

And not only in the, in the music
realm, but with paintings and

sculptures and installations.

I've been having more and more, um,
success in that realm as well, so…

And I feel like they're all in,
they're all the same thing to me now.

It's not one or the other.

It's just, uh, the, the, like
I said before, this idea of

the abstractivist, you know.

Be- being actively engaged in,
in, in making things, you know.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah.

I'm glad you said that 'cause that
was one of my questions of whether

you think of them as separate careers
or sort of just the same thing, but

you kinda answered that one for me.

robert’s iPhone: Yeah, yeah.

No, it's, it's totally the same thing.

Ma- matter of fact, this last tour I just
did, I went to Knoxville for the Big Ears

Festival, they asked me to be the artist
in residence at the space there f- for…

But that also means I, I was invited by
University of Tennessee art department and

I, I was in the gallery for a month before

Timothy Iseler: Oh, wow

robert’s iPhone: Big Ears started.

And then when Big Ears started, then,
then, you know, a whole different group

of people came in, and then we also
did pop-up shows within the, within the

space that were really a lot of fun.

And then in the end, we did
the Chicago Underground Duo.

We, we were invited to play at Big
Ears, so it all, like, went together.

And then the first thing I, you
know, right after that, I flew to

Italy and played a show in Bologna.

The very next day, I took a train to
Florence, played a show, but then I had

a, a painting exhibition in Florence.

So I was in residency there,
there in Florence for a week,

Timothy Iseler: wow

robert’s iPhone: and then, ha- you
know, opened the exhibition there,

before moving on to do some solo shows.

And that exhibition in Florence
is still happening right now.

So that was kind of my idea for numerous
years now to, was to get to a point

where that was the kind of flow of things
that happened, and this was almost like

a perfect example of that happening.

So now that, like, it's not just the
model, it's, it's something that I

lived and, and, like, experienced,
so now I can draw off of that to,

uh, continue that flow, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Yeah, that's amazing.

Good for you.

What are one of the, one or two of the
most successful projects you've worked

on, however you wanna think about that,
and what made them successful for you?

robert’s iPhone: Well, you
mean in the music realm?

Timothy Iseler: Any realm

robert’s iPhone: Yeah.

The most successful.

Depends what you mean by successful.

You mean the

Timothy Iseler: doesn't have to be money.

It can be, you know, you know, it
can be something that you really

were so proud of and kind of
couldn't believe you pulled it off

. robert’s iPhone: Man, uh, to, to be
honest with you, I, I like I don't

mean this to sound crazy, but almo-
almost everything that happens is

like so specific and well-curated
and thought about and Executed?

Like, like, 'cause sometimes I
come home and say, "I didn't, I

didn't even know what happened."

And, and, like, this thing I just, uh,
explained to you, like all these shows

and, and exhibitions and, you know, three
months prior to that, I, I, I, I premiered

the, the third act of this experimental
opera that I, I've been doing for the

last five, six years, in Reggio Emilia,
this beautiful theater in, in, in Italy.

It was 20 people I'm
dealing with, you know.

So 'cause we had, we, we had
the four singers from Italy, and

some people from Chicago came,
a bunch of musicians from Italy.

Plus I, you know, I developed not only
the music, but the libretto and the,

and the visuals and, and, and, and
everything, you know, and stage design.

Like, that wa- that was a project
where I thought, "This is impossible."

But sure enough, 30 minutes before that
stage, uh, the stage curtains opened,

it was like, "Oh, I think we got it."

You know?

and it was tremendous and, and, you
know, it was, it was shocking in a way.

And, like, I feel like because I'm so
specific doing things, I say no a lot.

And because I know how much energy
I need for, for that or for the

exhibition installation in Knoxville
for the, for the, for the…

Even if it's a solo show or
Chicago Underground Duo show,

it, it takes a certain amount of
energy and, and focus, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Mhm

robert’s iPhone: So definitely the
goal has been for a while not to

do everything, but to Learn about
yourself more in order to know a little

bit more about what exactly you're
doing and, and why you're doing it.

And and I say this a lot, I, I,
I don't do this to make money.

I do this because I enjoy making
things that have the potential to

create this transference of energy,

Timothy Iseler: Hmm

robert’s iPhone: whether in music
or in, in the, in the paintings and

the sculptures and everything else.

That is really my overriding thing.

And, and the fact that I'm able to
make a, a, a very modest living doing

that, it's enough for me, you know?

And I'm very…

I, I have a certain amount of, of
pride, you know, concerning that,

because I'm not, I'm not doing this
to make money, although I'm very happy

that I'm able to do it and make money.

You know what I mean?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah, totally.

robert’s iPhone: So yeah, so specific
projects is kind of like the whole

holistic thing, but certainly putting
together, like, Exploding Star

Orchestra, when we did live at the
Adler Planetarium, that took a lot

of people, and it took donors, and it
took Experimental Sound Studio and my

record label, International Anthem.

It took e- e- everything to
make that work, you know?

and then it worked, and now we're
gonna do it again, but, uh, at this

observatory in Lake Geneva in October.

Uh, it's called Yerkes, uh,
Observatory, one of the first

observatories in the, in the US.

'Cause you have this vision, and all
of a sudden we made a joke, okay,

Exploding Star Orchestra is only gonna
play in planetariums and observatories.

You know what I'm saying?

then all of a sudden two years later
it's like, "Do you wanna do this, you

know, residency at the observatory?"

Which I'm actually going next week.

I'll, I'll fly out there and, uh, I'm
doing a, uh, um, you know, research

because I'm writing this new set of
compositions called The Astral Pastorals.

but again, going back to the energy
thing, I, I, I'm seemingly able to,

to, to, to make, keep making a lot
of things and bringing some kind

of energy and happiness to people.

And I, I'm just, I'm just e- even a
little s- little stunned that I'm able

to just do that and make, you know…

It's, it's a m- it's a very modest living.

You know what I mean?

Timothy Iseler: Aha

robert’s iPhone: I mean, we got, we
got super lucky getting this house

here at a very low price 10 years ago,
And because I'm living here in, in

Marfa, y- y- the over-- our, our, our
overhead is, is very low, you know?

living, living in the city
is, is probably, doubly

expensive, than living out here.

But I'm also living in a kind
of, like I said, like a, an

oasis, a kind of paradise.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

this might be a good transition question.

You mentioned you're just so
happy that you're able to…

You're not doing this for money, but
you're happy that you're able to make

money and make a living off of it.

What's one thing you think you
do well on the personal finances

side to make that all work?

robert’s iPhone: well, I mean, as
far as like, like I'm pretty much…

I have a booking agent in Europe to get
some things, but like I said before,

because of all of the, all of the
relationships I've fostered over the

years with some of these people, I, I
kind of do everything myself, you know.

I don't consider what I do
with my finances, I, I don't

think I'm very good at that.

Timothy Iseler: Okay

robert’s iPhone: In oth- in other words,
you know, we're able to live very, very

comfortable, comfortably, you know,

Timothy Iseler: Mhm

robert’s iPhone: in a, what I
would consider a lower, lower

income bracket, you know.

But I don't know.

I, I'm not sure what I'm good at
other than the only thing I'm good

at is making these things and then
making these concerts and situations.

I'm not even making them happen.

People often, you know, contact me
for these things, and then I put,

try to put the pieces together.

like for instance, Kelly, Kelly
Reichardt all, all of a sudden called

me and asked me to do the film score
for her new movie last year, you know?

She's one of my favorite directors,
and I'd never done a feature film.

And, and because I, I, I love her films,
um, and, and I am somewhat of a cinephile,

I, I love everything about all that.

I was so excited.

I was like, "Wow, how,
where did this come from?"

You know?

Just kind of manifests itself.

But I have to say the money
kind of, it comes in…

I'm trying to think of what I'm good at.

I, I, m- maybe, maybe, maybe you
can ask me a more specific question.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

I mean, well, I think maybe you've been
hinting at one part of it for sure, as

you mentioned that you're able to-- b-
because you're out there in Marfa, you're

able to have a quality of life you enjoy,
but, but it doesn't cost very much.

So you must be keeping your expenses
quite low, but in a way where

you're still a satisfying life.

robert’s iPhone: you know, one thing that
me and Britt talked, you know, w- we're

gonna eat the best food we can get, you
know, meaning the, the, the healthiest,

you know, and the, and the best.

And so we're gonna spend extra
money on organic food and like, like

shipping stuff here because we're
in the middle of nowhere, you know.

another thing that we thought a lot
about was, was our, our car, you know.

I mean, we were driving a kind of sort
of used car from h- back and forth to the

airport until the car died all of a sudden
on the side of the road while I was trying

to get to, you know, Austria or something.

And it was like, oh my God, you know?

So we were like, we have to invest in
like an excellent car because we're,

we're going back and forth to El Paso.

It's a three-hour drive.

Back and forth, it's six hours.

I want Britt to be absolutely safe.

I wanna be safe.

So we decided to invest.

We got this, you know, Toyo- Toyota
RAV4 hybrid, amazing car, and, and

decided to basically, you know, I
don't wanna get too detailed here,

but you know, it, it's kinda decimated
the, the, the savings account.

Timothy Iseler: Hmm

robert’s iPhone: But, but because,
because it was such a important thing

for out here, we decided to do it.

So b- between that move, having,
having really good organic fresh

food, we're, we're not people who,
who want things or buy things.

of course, you're talking
to a guy who likes modular

synthesizers and things like that.

But even that, you know, uh, you get a
certain amount and you're like, I have

enough stuff here to, to, to just, to
make interesting stuff for 10 lifetimes.

But it's, uh, we do have to be, be
careful in other ways, you know, with,

w- with spending and, and whatever.

Britt also works here.

She works for Ballroom Marfa now, so

Timothy Iseler: Oh, okay

robert’s iPhone: she's
had various jobs here.

She, she's kind of the one that
works in town, and I'm, I'm, I'm

the guy who works out of town, you

Timothy Iseler: Mhm

robert’s iPhone: So it's kind
of a perfect combination of, uh,

of, of, of both things, you know.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

you could change, like just instantly,
magically change one part of your

financial life, what would that be?

robert’s iPhone: Well,

not totally sure because I, I still
am, am very much a novice at, like,

the idea of investing at all, you

Timothy Iseler: Aha

robert’s iPhone: But I, I, I
personally don't have any in-

investments, you know what I mean?

Other than, you know, the
things I have here at the house,

and the house, and the car.

and, I also am s- you know, like I
said, I'm 60 now, and I k- kind of

regret not starting some kind of life
insurance situation, like some years ago.

And I'm, I'm finding I'm, I'm a
little bit confused and possibly a

little bit afraid of how to do that.

You know what I'm saying?

Because also Brit is, you know,
Brit is 19 years younger than me.

Also I'm, I'm getting a little older.

I'm like, I wanna…

Again, I think I should've started
thinking ab- about this earlier, and

I have thought about it on occasion,
but making sure that she's okay when,

when I, uh, when I leave this planet.

You know what I'm saying?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah

robert’s iPhone: so I guess, I don't know
if that answers your question, but there

Timothy Iseler: It does, and, and
we're gonna circle back to both of

those in a second, but I wanted to
just ask you one more question first.

What's something you love
to do that's cheap or free?

robert’s iPhone: Cheap or free--
Well, just, I mean, I guess taking a

walk is, is, is fantastic, you know?

Working in the garden, amazing,
Of course, making sound or making

a painting is, is also, uh…

Like I said, I, I, I don't do that
for, to specifically make money.

I, I do it for, because I enjoy doing it
and, and I wanna hear that in my house.

I wanna have that energy in the house and
also in the painting studio, you know.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah

robert’s iPhone: Although, you
know, okay, you have to pay for

supplies and stuff like that.

But simple things like going, going
swimming at Balmorhea or going for

a walk or, like, look-looking at
the, uh, the immense sky wh-when

it turns black here in, uh, Marfa.

I don't know if that's the stuff
you're looking for, but I, I get, uh,

immense joy from all, from all of that.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, that's fantastic.

Well, Rob, I end every conversation with
a question for my guest, and I, I wanted

to get that last question out of the
way before we got to this because it's

exactly what you were just talking about.

your question is: What should
I do concerning investment

strategies and life insurance?

I have Neither.

So it's ex- exactly what
you were talking about.

robert’s iPhone: Did
write that down, did it?

Timothy Iseler: you did.

You did.

I'm gonna start with life insurance
first, because that's not something I

actually talk about a lot on this show,
so be good to share some information.

Just generally speaking insurance as
an idea, you're taking a risk you and

you're transferring it to someone else,
the insurance company, and in exchange,

you pay them money, either in the form
of a premium or, like, a lump sum.

And the more likely that something
is, the more expensive that

kind of insurance tends to be.

So with life insurance, if
you're young and healthy and

youthful, can get it pretty cheap.

And if you have known health
conditions or you're older,

it's gonna be more expensive.

It's not that you can't get it, it's
just gonna be more expensive, okay?

robert’s iPhone: Ja

Timothy Iseler: Well, there's broadly,
like, two categories of life insurance.

One is called term, meaning it lasts
for a certain amount of time, a

certain term, life, meaning it lasts
the rest of your life until you die.

And since everybody is guaranteed to
die someday, that means, that means they

charge more money for whole life because
they're guaranteed they're gonna have to

pay out then, whereas with, with a term
policy, they might never have to pay out.

There are different reasons why
people would wanna buy life insurance.

I'm gonna break them, some of the big
ones, into three different categories.

robert’s iPhone: Aha

Timothy Iseler: one is sort of like what
I would call legacy, which is, like,

the way it is in movies and stuff, where
it's like, I-- "It's A Wonderful Life"

or something, like, I'm gonna die and I'm
gonna leave my family a bunch of money and

it will be life-changing for them, right?

So you wanna be able to behind
something very significant to the

people around you, right?

robert’s iPhone: Ja

Timothy Iseler: category, I'm gonna call
it sort of like maintenance, that would

be, like, thinking about the things
that you contribute financially and

how to replace that when you go, right?

So you, if you're, you know, you earn
a certain amount of income, if you

died, that income would disappear,
so life insurance could replace that.

You could think about paying
off the mortgage, you know.

Like, you're gonna continue
paying the mortgage, you could add

that to a life insurance policy.

So that's sort of like, more like
just how to relieve the financial

burden from those ongoing expenses or
those ongoing quality of life things.

Then the last one is, is much
simpler, which is just that When

a person dies, a lot of utility in
having money available quickly to

help with things like a funeral or

robert’s iPhone: Right

Timothy Iseler: the, you know,
paying att- an attorney to settle

the estate and stuff like that.

So I think generally, like, that
kind of insurance is usually

not a huge amount of money.

You know, like $20,000, $25,000.

Like, that'll probably pay for most
of that stuff, and that's a, that's

a pretty easy kind of policy to get,
'cause it's not that much money.

robert’s iPhone: Aha

Timothy Iseler: So it kind of depends,
like, where do you fall on that spectrum?

Like, are you thinking of more
like, "I wanna leave a signif- a

significant amount of money," or, to
make sure that my funeral costs are

paid for," or somewhere in between.

You know what I mean?

robert’s iPhone: Yeah.

I, I, I would probably think somewhere
in between just because, yeah, I'm sure

everyone would answer, I, I, I would
love to live-- leave, um, you know,

millions of dollars for whoever you know.

but, but it is, you know, it's also…

I mean, I guess that's
what I, I would ask you.

I'm like ba- based on, you know,
how I make money and als- also

like how long can I do this?

You know

Timothy Iseler: Yeah,

robert’s iPhone: what I mean?

I'm, like I said, I'm 60 and I
still have, I figure what, 20 more

years or something or, or maybe not
even that depending on how the, how

the, how the body reacts, you know?

But I guess what, what I'm saying,
I, I guess it would fall in

between those three things, you

Timothy Iseler: Okay.

robert’s iPhone: 'Cause I, I
just don't, uh, u- un- unless

I don't know.

You're somewhat of a, of a magician
I would imagine with this stuff . So

like, you know, if I'm able to
somehow, you know, ha- have, have a,

a couple million dollars at the end
that, that would, keep, keep Brit,

like, totally secure and cool, I would
love to be able to do that, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

robert’s iPhone: But, but certainly
at least maintenance and like what

you're talking about, like funeral
stuff and, and things like that.

Yeah, I, I, I, I, I don't want to be…

yeah, I want to be as helpful as
possible in that, that area, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Well, in terms of, uh, I can't be too
much of a magician because it is like it's

based on who will sell you a policy and,
and can you afford that policy, you know?

If you

robert’s iPhone: right

Timothy Iseler: after we're, we're
done with this, I can send you

some information about different
insurance that I work with, and

robert’s iPhone: Ja

Timothy Iseler: some quotes and
that way you could at least have

an idea of what you're looking at.

And, um, just to be clear, perfectly clear
on this, like don't have any financial

relationship with this, so it's not
like if you buy a policy, I get money.

robert’s iPhone: Right

Timothy Iseler: and when you work
with an insurance broker versus

an insurance agent or an insurance
salesperson, they, they get paid the

same regardless of what policy you pick.

So there's no sort of incentive to
upsell you or anything like that.

So if you, if you want, I can
definitely connect you with some

robert’s iPhone: Oh.

Timothy Iseler: to at least
just get some quotes, you

robert’s iPhone: Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: you can

robert’s iPhone: Yeah, for sure

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, get an
idea of what you're looking at.

robert’s iPhone: Is that
something, uh, that you do as

a financial advisor, or is that

Timothy Iseler: Well, yeah,
that's a good question.

So I don't have an insurance license.

I c- I cannot sell insurance policies.

robert’s iPhone: Right

Timothy Iseler: And the type of…

well, I'm a certified financial
planner, and part of that is that

I have a, an obligation to be a
fiduciary for my clients, which

means I have to make decisions that
put their interests ahead of mine.

robert’s iPhone: Uh-huh

Timothy Iseler: One area where insurance
can complicate that is that in- people

who sell insurance get paid a commission.

And

robert’s iPhone: Right

Timothy Iseler: that sense, someone who
sells insurance, like if I sold insurance

policies, I would be incentivized
to sell you a very big one, because

then I would get a bigger paycheck.

So to remove that, that conflict
of interest, I don't do that, and

that's why I work directly with
these insurance broker companies

robert’s iPhone: Right,

Timothy Iseler: where nobody involved
has an incentive to upsell you.

It's just sort of like these, these are
the policies that are available based

on what you've told us kind of a thing.

robert’s iPhone: Well, that's cool

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

And I'm happy to connect you
with them because, you know,

like I said, it's, it's, it's
just a thing I do to help people.

It's not a way that I make money.

robert’s iPhone: Right, right.

Well then, that's awesome, you know?

Timothy Iseler: You.

then on the investment side, I do kind of
talk about this stuff a lot, and I want to

mention it to you, but depending on h- how
things go with the insurance side, like

maybe maybe that's all you're looking for.

You know?

Maybe if you can get lined up with
a nice insurance policy, like you'll

feel like that's all you need.

When it comes to investment strategy and
for someone who's never done it, someone

who's just starting out, really advocate
for doing it in a way where it's easy to

get started and easy to stick with it.

So the way that I would say that would
be like, pick some amount of money that

feels meaningful to you, but not insane,

robert’s iPhone: Right

Timothy Iseler: then schedule
schedule automated transfers

into an investment account.

That could be weekly, every other
week, every month, whatever.

But some amount of money where
you're like, "Yeah, this is…

This feels good.

I can stick with this."

But it, it doesn't feel like you're
sticking your neck out too far all

at once, because that, that can be a
really bad feeling if you have a-- all

of your money into investing, and then
you watch it go down and it feels bad

. robert’s iPhone: Right, right

Timothy Iseler: if you kind of start
out a little bit smaller, one month at

a time, one week at a time, whatever.

And then within your investment account,
also recommend owning things that you

can own a really long time, that are
also kind of easy for you to understand.

So not like, the hot stock this month
or this quarter or this year, but like,

what's something that I could buy and
potentially own for the rest of my life?

you know, certain things like
index funds fall into that

category where you're buying one
investment that tracks an index.

robert’s iPhone: Uh-huh

Timothy Iseler: So, you're buying
one thing, but that one thing

represents ownership of maybe 500
or 1,000 different stocks, you know.

So you get to buy one thing, but
there's many, many things within that.

that really is the kind of investment
that you could own the entire rest of

your life, because there's always gonna
be more and the good ones rise to the

top, and the bad ones kind of fade away.

But

robert’s iPhone: Uh-huh

Timothy Iseler: gives you a way
to participate in all of that.

And

doing it in that way where you're putting
a little bit in at a time, it allows

you to get comfortable with the process
of watching the stock market go up and

down and how well you can stomach that.

robert’s iPhone: Aha

Timothy Iseler: kinda get
used to what it's like.

If you get…

If you start to feel comfortable with
that, start to feel like you know what

you're doing, you could diversify a little
by adding, for example, a bond index fund.

robert’s iPhone: Uh-huh

Timothy Iseler: so bonds aren't
really like growth investments,

robert’s iPhone: Right

Timothy Iseler: but they do generate
income, so they kind of smooth out some

of the ups and downs of the stock market.

That's a way to, you know, s- be
invested and, and kind of smooth

out some of those rough edges.

You could also look at
investing internationally.

That's another way to diversify further.

But I, I think for a beginning
investor, if you can invest a little

bit every week, every month, whatever,
and just choose something that you

can stick with for a very long time,
I think that's a great way to do it.

robert’s iPhone: Right,

Timothy Iseler: If you can

robert’s iPhone: right.

Timothy Iseler: To do the life insurance
and the investing, I think that's rad.

robert’s iPhone: Aha

Timothy Iseler: on the sort of scenario
that you're describing to me, I would,

I would say first is out the insurance
and see if you can afford that, and if

you can, that might be all that you need.

You know, that might satisfy exactly
what you're hoping it would do.

Does that make sense?

robert’s iPhone: Yeah, it does.

I should add too that Brit makes a
steady income, so she's like, she has

steady income, full-time, benefits,
you know, meaning healthcare.

We, we both have healthcare.

I, I, I pay, I pay for, for mine, I guess.

But, s- she kinda handles all
that stuff, so it's, it's…

it might have been a good
idea to have her here as well.

But I, I, I wanted to mention that
we do have a Charles Schwab account.

Timothy Iseler: Uh-huh.

robert’s iPhone: I guess it's
an investment account, you know.

not, not, not a tremendous amount
of money, but we've been taking

stuff out of there on occasion.

Timothy Iseler: Mhm

robert’s iPhone: matter of fact,
I think that's, that might have

been what we did for the, uh,
for the down payment on the car.

but From the 20 years that
we've been together, Our, our

fi- our financial situation is
that, uh, we We have one thing.

You know what I'm saying?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah.

robert’s iPhone: what,
it's what we make, you

Timothy Iseler: Yeah

robert’s iPhone: but it's very
rarely that we put anything into

the, this Charles Schwab thing.

Timothy Iseler: Mhm

robert’s iPhone: So I don't know
if that's an index fund or I,

I don't even know what it is.

That's, that's how little I know.

It's, it's some kind of low,
low-risk account that it seems that-

We should be putting X amount of
money in there every month, right?

Like, is that what you're talking about?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah.

It's a-- That is what I'm talking about,

robert’s iPhone: like automated deposits

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

And, you know, with Schwab, I'm
sure there is a way to do this.

I don't know how to do this, but if
you can make it so that those automated

deposits always buy the exact same
thing, I think that's a great way to go.

so then you just don't
have to think about it.

You know, it's like the money
goes in, it buys the investment.

I don't have to think about it.

robert’s iPhone: what is that?

What, I, I'm not even sure what that
means i'm sorry, but I'm such a novice,

Timothy Iseler: No, no, no, it's

robert’s iPhone: man.

Timothy Iseler: fine.

Totally fine.

like this, an account with Charles
Schwab, it's a brokerage account.

and within that account you
can buy different investments.

And that's true you had an IRA, which
is an individual retirement account,

it's just a type of account, and within
that account you can buy investments.

And so you could buy funds, or
you could buy stocks, or you could

buy all kinds of different things

robert’s iPhone: Right

Timothy Iseler: the account.

the thing that I was talking about, like
if you're making automated contributions,

robert’s iPhone: Yeah

Timothy Iseler: you wanna make sure
that as the money goes in, it's

being invested in something rather
than just sitting there as cash.

Because I've definitely seen people
do that, where they open up an

IRA, they're putting money in, but
it's not actually getting invested.

It's just sitting there as cash.

And that, you just have a complicated
savings account at that point.

robert’s iPhone: Yeah.

Well, I wonder if that's the case.

Is it, is it a thing where-- where you
have the money in the account and somebody

at Charles Schwab is investing that money
for you without even knowing what it is?

Timothy Iseler: It
totally could be that way.

They, that is part of how they make money.

robert’s iPhone: It, it might,
it might be that type of

scenario off, off the aspirate.

But is, is that a good
thing or is it more…

Timothy Iseler: Well

robert’s iPhone: I mean, so you
assume they're the experts so

this-- they'll know what to…

Because if they invest in
something that works, then

they'll make more money, right?

That's the idea

Timothy Iseler: yeah.

And, and I wanna be clear it to you

robert’s iPhone: Ja

Timothy Iseler: to, you know, I'm
not necessarily trying to pitch

you or something, like, I also
do that kind of work, so that's

robert’s iPhone: Oh, that's…

that's something
s-specifically that you do

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, I can do that work.

Charles Schwab can do that work for you,
but I can also do that work for you.

And just, you know, I, don't mind
saying this, like, at Charles Schwab,

even if you have, you know, even if
you had a million dollars, you're a

very small fish in a very big sea.

You know what I mean?

robert’s iPhone: Well, the we're nothing
then because we're far below that

Timothy Iseler: Right.

Whereas like, for me, I
know the people I work with.

so it's like, if you wanted to
talk about that, I'd be happy

to talk about that with you.

But that is the kind of work I can do

robert’s iPhone: Oh, yeah.

Would that mean, like, just,
uh, uh, I'm not even, I'm not

even saying a, a, a whatever.

I'm saying this number ar- arbitrarily.

If I was, if I was, "Here's
$20,000, Tim, invest this for

me," is that what I would say?

Is that what would happen?

Uh, uh, what would happen?

Timothy Iseler: I mean,
in a nutshell it would.

Like we would, we would meet and we
would talk about what you want the

money to do and try to pick a mix of
investments that make sense for you.

But yeah, I mean, that would
be one way to do it for sure.

And then

robert’s iPhone: But that's
squarely like that's what you do.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah

robert’s iPhone: Or that has to be one of
the main things I would imagine, right?

Timothy Iseler: It is one
of the main things, yeah

robert’s iPhone: Oh, okay.

So you would know what to do there.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, and I'd be happy to
talk to you and Britt about that anytime.

robert’s iPhone: Yeah, for sure.

All right.

I'm just, uh, uh, it, it shows you what,
what, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm super

rookie with this stuff, so lu- luckily
at the age of 60 I'm finally like,

"Oh, maybe I should think about this."

But you have clients that are, you know,
musicians and artists and everything

too, so I'm sure it's, I would assume
you get some of the same questions and-

Timothy Iseler: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, and I know from my experience
with my career, I felt like because

I didn't have a normal job with
steady paycheck and a 401(k) and all

that, I thought that I was like, you
know, way, way outside and whatever.

And what I've come to realize doing
this job is certainly, like, musicians

and artists and creatives don't have
a good handle on a lot of this stuff,

but mo- most people honestly don't have
a good handle on a lot of this stuff.

Like, I would say when I talk to, know,
my clients or the people I work with, if

I ask them like, "What's in your 401(k)?"

Like, most people have no idea.

They're just like, "Well, I don't know.

I s- I signed up for something when I
got hired, and I don't know what it is."

Right?

So y- you know, you're not alone.

Most people don't know
what's up with this stuff.

robert’s iPhone: I mean, I don't even
know if I have one of these things.

I know Brett does, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah

robert’s iPhone: that's, that's, that's
the, that's how far it's like what's

going on, you know what I'm saying?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, man.

robert’s iPhone: But, uh, but I, I would--
Yeah, it would be certainly nice to, uh,

schedule a time when, when, when me and
Brett could talk to you and then, uh…

from what I understand, it
just sits there, you know.

And sometimes, some years it's like,
oh, we gained a little bit, and like

one year we, we even lost a little bit.

And I was like-- And I, I was always
like, "What do we do with this thing?

I don't even understand what,
you know, what you're supposed

to do other than watch it."

But now I'm like, "No, you have
to, you have to feed the, you

have to feed the thing, right?"

You

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

unless you are in a position to
live off of that money forever, I

robert’s iPhone: No,

Timothy Iseler: con-continuing
to add to it is a good idea.

robert’s iPhone: definitely not.

So

Timothy Iseler: Cool.

do you feel about this, Rob?

robert’s iPhone: Yeah, beautiful, man.

It's wonderful talking
to you about all this.

But c- can I ask you one more question?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, absolutely

robert’s iPhone: I see people, even
family members of mi- people are going,

you know, people lose their houses, they
go bankrupt, they, uh, you know, But

it seems like the system is, like, made
for them because somehow they're able

to come out of this stuff just like ke-
keeping lifestyles that seem impossible

Because of some kind of, I don't
know what, the way credit works or

the way you, you know what I mean?

Like, like we pride ourselves on having
almost no debt, you know what I'm saying?

having the things that we need,
but, but not more, you know?

And it's-- But it seems like the,
the, it, it, it seems like it's

set up that the people that, that,
that fuck up the most get the most.

I don't know if, I don't know
if that makes sense to you,

but y- you know what I mean?

Timothy Iseler: Well, yeah.

I mean, this era, especially with
social media, it's really hard to

know how people are actually doing.

robert’s iPhone: Ja

Timothy Iseler: you mentioned
that you have almost no debt.

Like, when you see people

seem to be really well and you can't
figure out why are they doing really

well, sometimes it's just that they
just came from money and they've

never had to worry about it very much.

And,

robert’s iPhone: ja

Timothy Iseler: like that w- I
definitely-- when I moved to Chicago,

I definitely wondered like, you
know, "How's this person bartending

three nights a week and they

robert’s iPhone: All right

Timothy Iseler: they can still
afford to do everything?"

You know?

robert’s iPhone: Yeah, but I- I'm,
I'm more talking about the people

that I know don't have any money.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah

robert’s iPhone: know what I'm saying?

And, uh, and, uh, it's still…

Maybe it's just a, a, you know, survival.

I don't know.

Timothy Iseler: We definitely as a
culture, the the US economy runs on

consumer spending and consumer debt.

And yeah, like the, the average
person, the amount of consumer

debt, meaning like credit card debt
that the average person carries is

really, really quite a lot of money.

robert’s iPhone: Ja

Timothy Iseler: And I think as a
culture, people have just sort of gotten

used to that being the normal thing

robert’s iPhone: You
just accept that it leads

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

And I didn't even have a credit card
until I was in my mid-20s or something.

So for me, it's pretty stressful
if I can't pay it off, you know?

robert’s iPhone: ja,

Timothy Iseler: it's definitely
like when I find myself in that

situation, it's something that
I really work at and prioritize.

And you are in that situation,
it requires sacrifice, you know?

And so if you're not willing to
sacrifice, then you just learn

to live with that debt, I guess.

robert’s iPhone: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I'm, I'm very proud that I've
never had to file bankruptcy, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah

robert’s iPhone: But so many people around
me have and, and like multiple times, and

I'm like, "What are you people doing?"

You know what I'm saying?

And, but seemingly com-
completely fine, you know?

I guess the whole point
of this is, you know,

worry about your own stuff
and, uh, and fix it, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's this writer I like called
Morgan Housel, and he has this…

I think this is pretty much the quote,
but I'm gonna paraphrase, where it's

like, when you see someone who has a
nice house or a nice car or whatever,

all you know is that they used to
have money and now they have things.

You know?

You don't know anything else about them.

robert’s iPhone: Yeah.

Yeah,

Timothy Iseler: they could look like
they went bankrupt and bounced right

back, but you don't actually know
what's going on behind the scenes there

robert’s iPhone: Yeah,
you never know, man.

Timothy Iseler: Thanks
so much for doing this.

I really appreciate it

robert’s iPhone: Yeah, man, it
was a pleasure to talk to you, man

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, pleasure's all mine

robert’s iPhone: And we'll talk
and, and, uh, keep this going

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, I hope so.

Talk to you soon, buddy.

robert’s iPhone: Bye brother.

Ciao

Timothy Iseler: bye

Thank you to Rob for
talking with me today.

He and I go back a long way, but I did
learn a lot about his story through

this conversation that I didn't know.

What stood out to me was how even though
making money isn't the point of his

work, he's still really proud of being
able to support himself through music.

And even though he says he's not good
at personal finance, he inherently

understands that keeping his expenses
low and avoiding debt has allowed him

to live the kind of life he wants.

And he's done it all on his own terms.

So thank you again to Rob Mazurek.

That's it for today.

I'll be back next week to talk about how
you can't really out earn your spending.

When we talk about cash flow,
we're looking at what you earn,

what you spend, and what you save.

And despite everybody's best intentions,
virtually everyone responds to increases

in income by increasing their spending.

But that's actually okay.

Instead of trying to out earn your
spending, we'll talk about simple ways

you can tackle the savings side of your
cash flow to make sure you stay on track.

I will see you back here then.

The Thing We Never Talk
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