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Every Tuesday on the CosmoFactory podcast: Discover the latest innovations along the cosmetics and personal care supply chain. Hear thought-provoking conversations with top beauty industry experts from around the world. Learn about next-level solutions and find inspiration to turn your own ideas into industry-changing innovations.
A PRODUCTION OF Cosmoprof Worldwide Bologna
CosmoFactory is the first podcast from Cosmoprof Worldwide Bologna—the most important beauty trade show in the world. Dedicated to all sectors of the industry, Cosmoprof Worldwide Bologna welcomes over 250,000 visitors from 150 countries and regions and nearly 3,000 exhibitors to Bologna, Italy, each year. It’s where our diverse and international industry comes together to build business relationships and to discover the best brands and newest innovations across consumer beauty, professional beauty, and the entire supply chain. The trade show includes a robust program of exclusive educational content, featuring executives and key opinion leaders from every sector of the cosmetics, fragrance, and personal care industry. Cosmoprof Worldwide Bologna is the most important event of the Cosmoprof international network, with exhibitions in Asia (Hong Kong), the US (Las Vegas and Miami), India (Mumbai) and Thailand (Bangkok). Thanks to its global exhibitions Cosmoprof connects a community of more than 500,000 beauty stakeholders and 10,000 companies from 190 countries and regions. Learn more today at Cosmoprof.com
CosmoFactory was co-developed in collaboration with supply-side expert Deanna Utroske, Host of the CosmoFactory podcast and Editor of the Beauty Insights newsletter.
Deanna: [00:00:00] This episode is about product application. It's about nanofiber technology and the manufacturing process called electro spinning. It's about sheet masks and skincare patches, and it's about scientific creativity. And working with existing technologies in new ways Today on the Cosmo Factory Podcast, I am talking with Dr.
Laura Frazier, chief scientist at Tiki USA. Laura, welcome to CosmoFactory.[00:01:00]
Laura: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Deanna: Yeah, you're welcome. I'm very glad you are here. Uh, you know, when we think about the cosmetics industry, supply chain, it's, it's very easy, at least for me to think about ingredients, about manufacturing machinery, about packaging. What we might not always think about is product application. Or how the consumer will put product on their body.
Um, but when I knew that I would have the chance to interview you, Laura, I did spend some time thinking, uh, about product application since that really is what Tyke specializes in, you know, and certainly there's a lot of product application that happens with our hands. Um, there are tools like brushes, sponges, um, various applicators, metal stone, silicone, and as I was thinking.
I'm sure a lot of listeners have already recognized this, but it, I was. You know, sort of reminded myself that product texture, uh, product format packaging itself guides the [00:02:00] application method. What if something is a spray or an aerosol that certainly help dictates, uh, how it is applied. Um, we see a lot of tube packages now with a roller ball out applicator.
Um, certainly consumer preference, right? Just because something is packaged a certain way or designed a certain way, we know the, the customer will, will use it as they wish. Um, but the product, the package, the tool, these things really sort of guide or figure into the, the product application method. Laura, I'm hoping you will give product, application and, and thereby our conversation a bit more context, will you just give us a, a quick company overview?
Laura: So taking was founded over 90 years ago. Um, it's headquartered in Osaka, Japan, and they actually started out with sea sponges for the cosmetic industry. Uh, that led them into some synthetic sponges and then into brushes and other applicated tools. Uh, and then to where we are today, which is more about, you know, [00:03:00] patches and wipes and masks, as well as some new technology like microneedles, uh, acne dots and Nana Fibers.
Deanna: Perfect. And as you've said, tyke works with this, uh, material we think of as Nanofiber material. Um, and you personally know quite a lot about nano fibers. Teach us the basics, if you will. What is Nanofiber?
Laura: A fiber is simply a fiber with a diameter less than a micron or 1000 nanometers. So to give some context, a human hair is between 50 to a hundred microns. So we're talking about a hundred to a thousand times smaller than a human hair. So something you can't see with a naked eye, you have to look under a microscope.
Um, the length of the fibers can actually vary depending on the process. So if it's an, if it's processed like electro spinning, that is continuous, you can have very long lengths, meters long. So essentially when you look at a microscope slide with nano fibers on it, which I've done many, many times over, you know, my [00:04:00] career in industry and in academia, uh, I've never seen the end of a nanofiber because they're, they're, they just, they're, they're very long fibers that are continuously spun.
But really, the, the, the diameter is what defines them as a nanofiber. And there are, you know, many, many different polymers that can create nano fibers. There are different production processes to create them, but essentially that, that's what a nanofiber is.
Deanna: I like it. There's an irony there, isn't there? It's like super tiny in one regard, but endless in another. That's fantastic. Um, you know, as, as, as we've suggested a little bit, maybe not directly, but, but nano fibers are certainly one of the materials that beauty makers use for sheet masks or patches. Um, and I think most patches are for skincare, but there are some now being used for hair.
Products as well, um, and, and perhaps some other applications in beauty. But keeping with this concept of product application help us think about the reasons a brand would choose to make masks or patches using a nanofiber material.
Laura: So there are a few different things [00:05:00] that, that come to mind. First of all is performance. So we, you know, we've done, uh, a study with. Using our polymer nano fibers, which we use lon and sodium urate as the polymers to form the fibers. And then we added niacinamide as, uh, an active and we compared that with a solution of the same ingredients and we saw better, you know, deeper, faster penetration of the niacinamide using the nano fibers.
So the performance is definitely one that would, would be a reason to, to go with Nana Fibers additionally. There are a lot of brands that are looking for, you know, specific to meet specific requirements, whether it's a blacklist or a a clean list or just preservative free. The nano fibers because they are, it is a dry product and the water activity is very low.
They don't actually require preservative. So you can have a very minimal formula, just a few ingredients, um, which really helps to kind of meet all of those different requirements that are, that, [00:06:00] that consumers have as far as the ingredients that are used in your product. And then lastly, this is, this is something that may not appeal to everybody, but it's something that I, I feel, um, you know, appeals to me, which is something faster to, to, you know, to use.
Because with a traditional mask, you know, you put it on, you leave it on 15, 20 minutes. I am not one to sit still for very long. So. So the idea of being able to spray my face with water, put on the nanofiber mask, it dissolves, I'm done. I can move on to my next activity. You know, that that's also something that might be appealing to, you know, some, some portion of the population.
Maybe not everybody, but um, you know, once again it's, uh, the, the application, right? It, it's a different, different type of, of masks than, than people are used to.
Deanna: Wonderful. No, that's all very helpful. Um, I would love to learn more about nano fibers in general, and you've already mentioned the term electro spinning, and this is one of the processes by which, um, [00:07:00] nano fibers are made. I guess I wanna know first, 'cause I, I don't quite understand. Is this the only way to create nano fibers?
Laura: it's the most popular for sure. But there are actually things like, um, melt spinning that, that you can create polymers from. Them. Now, those nano fibers, you can only use certain polymers for melt spinning. So there are some, you know, ramifications of choosing that method is that, you know, you can't necessarily use the natural polymers like we use.
For, for our nano fibers that are pu um, there are also some different fibrillation processes, but again, they're, they're more narrow in scope as to, to the types of, and those lengths are not as long. So it depends on the application that you're going for as well as the polymer that you wanna use, what type of process you would use.
But primarily electric spinning has been the most popular and the most used.
Deanna: Okay. teaches them about electro spinning.
Laura: So essentially electric spinning is taking a [00:08:00] polymer solution and applying a high voltage to that solution, and then you have some type of reservoir that's holding the solution. From that reservoir. A a, a jet is ejected. That then becomes a fiber, and then that fiber travels through the air to the collector, and as it's traveling, the solvent evaporates.
So you end up with a dry fiber being collected and, and you have a, an array of. Either needles or in some cases they use a wire that the solution is, is put on or a disc, or what we use is ball for spinning. So we have balls that are coated in polymer solution and there are many jets that are ejected from the surface of that ball.
And each one of those is now a fiber being formed. And so all of those fibers are traveling and being collected in a randomly oriented, non-woven mat. Um, and then we can use different substrates so we can use. You know, a PT mesh, another non-woven parchment paper, something to collect the, the nano fibers on, because [00:09:00] typically, at least in the cosmetic industry, we're not making super thick nanofiber mats, so they're not self-supported.
So we have something that, that we're collecting those on for the, the sheet mask type application. So for a nanofiber sheet or a patch, anything that's just being die cut from that individual, um, layer of nano fibers.
Deanna: That's so interesting. So they're not, um, as we might think of a thread or a yarn being spooled up, they're actually being contained by this substrate in some fashion. That's their landing place.
Laura: Considered a nonwoven because they aren't, they aren't woven together at all. It's just, it's, you know, random how they, I mean, there are some forces, you know, electrical forces that are, that are guiding them, right. That, you know, to the target, things like that. But they're not, um, you, it's, it's
Deanna: Yes. Less the factory. Just be web as it
Laura: Oh, well, you, you should have seen our lab at times. They were often fibers, uh, sometimes on, on you as well. 'cause you, you are a ground as you stand there so.[00:10:00]
Deanna: That's so cool. Um, so certainly a number of companies supply nanofiber materials and products to the global cosmetics industry. I'll just share a few examples. Um, plasma Gear is a company out of Canada, uh, that works with nano fibers. Al Marco is based in the Czech Republic, um, uses this technology. Inso out of Turkey.
Um, and I do wanna mention one of the newer Nanofiber ideas I've heard about. Um, this is from a company called Reone. Um, and they basically encapsulate active ingredients within nano fibers to produce, uh, skincare patches and masks. And the term you used, self-supporting, I think. Their nano fibers are self-supporting.
Um, I don't believe there's any sort of substrate, and I say that because they use the same, you, you mentioned the word dissolve as you were describing how we might use a, um. A Nanofiber mask. Um, rest Malone uses the word melt, but I, I like the word dissolve too. You basically apply their mask and spritz it with water and that's it.
It, you know, [00:11:00] fully dissolves. Um, uh, they call it fiber skincare or dry serum. You've pointed out both the dry, um, the sort of the water. Um, almost waterless nature of this technology. Um, and certainly we're thinking about fibers. Um, and another fiber technology that our listeners may have heard of in the news over recent years, uh, is a company called Bolt Threads.
Uh, this company makes a biotech version of spider silk, certainly with cosmetic applications. Now, this is not a nanofiber, um, and in fact I mentioned it really just to, um, make the tininess, or I guess I could say the nano ness. Of nano fibers, all the more real, you gave a a great example with human hair.
Um, but from what I understand, spider silk is at least 50 times, five zero times larger by diameter than any nano fiber. And, and we can, most of us have probably seen spider silk, um, somewhere in the world and, and recognize that, um, it seems quite tiny, but there is something much tinier. Um, [00:12:00] that we are working with.
Um, and while we're thinking about sort of new fiber technologies and especially new nano fiber tech, I know Laura, your team launched something, uh, early last year. I'd love to hear about how you are working with nano fibers in new ways, and, and I'm hoping you'll tell us about nano drops.
Laura: Um, so nano drops are essentially layers of nanofiber that are then pressed into different shapes. Um, so we can have, you know, right now we have circle squares. We've done. Hearts butterflies, all different shapes, and the benefit of, of the nano drops. Um, one, you know, initially we were looking at it partly from a, a sustainability standpoint with packaging, right?
So with a, with a face mask, you have, if you have, if you have a substrate, you have a substrate, and then you have it in the sachet and the sachets and a folding carton and you know, so there was a lot of packaging involved. So we wanted to see how could we cut down on the packaging. And then we ended up finding some other really, um, you know.
Innovative [00:13:00] aspects to the nano drops as well, which is that we can put things inside of the NanoDrop in a dry powder form. And this helps not only with the stability of ingredients that are currently used in, in cosmetics like ascorbic acid, for example, you know, that will start to degrade in water. And by putting it inside the NanoDrop, we, we.
Don't have any exposure to water until the customer is ready to use it. So it stays as a dry powder, you know, just like you've taken it out of the bottle on the shelf, you put it inside the NanoDrop. I like to use the analogy of ravioli. So if you think of the nanofiber sheets as the pasta, we can kind of fill that ravioli or that, that, that nanofiber with anything, uh, any type of powdered ingredient inside.
So we have a lot of variety that we can easily change up the, the product just by changing what's inside. Um, and what's really exciting is we've actually had customers who, you know, somebody who brought to us an ingredient that's [00:14:00] never been used in skincare before. Because it was so sensitive to moisture, um, that it couldn't be even for a, a short time put in water.
And we were able to stabilize that by putting it inside of the nano drops. And then of course, we can put 30 of the nano drops into one container. So that helps with the packaging. And we do have, we have a desk kit in the cap to, to print and, and prevent any moisture from coming in. And that's, you know, it opens it up to now not only having more effective ingredients.
Are currently on the market like ASIC acid because now it has a increased stability and so it can be more effective, but also opens up to, to new ingredients as well. Um, so that was really exciting with the, with the NanoDrop, something we, we discovered. Um, and you know, they're meant to be a full face application, so you just use one NanoDrop.
You can either dissolve it with water or you can dissolve it. You know, we have some customers who choose to sell the nano drops along with one of their products. So maybe it's an essence or a toner or something [00:15:00] like that. Something obviously with water to, to do the, you know, to dissolve. Um, but there are a lot of flexibility there as well.
Deanna: Yeah, no, I like ravioli as a product format in beauty, I think. I think that's a first, nothing, something I have not heard of before. Um, I'm curious, what does a NanoDrop feel like?
Laura: Well, yeah, we worked really hard actually to develop something that has a, a, a very nice skin feel because originally, you know, when we did the patches and the, and the masks where, you know, you're spraying it on, you are putting on the mask and then you're leaving it there, so you're not really touching it much with your, with your fingers or feeling it much.
Right. So there's. There's not that, that sensorial aspect. But with the nano drops, because you are essentially kind of mixing this NanoDrop with, with the liquid in your hand, palm of your hand, and then rubbing it on, you definitely feel what, what it feels like. And with using just the polymers, which as I mentioned, the pool on the sodium poly, which are both polysaccharides, so.[00:16:00]
It's gonna be a little sticky, right? 'cause you just have these, these molecules that themselves, um, have some stickiness. So we actually started adding in some other ingredients for, for the NanoDrop formulation, like squalling, like sunflower seed oil, um, you know, to have a, a better, a better skin feel. So we do have kind of what we've, um, developed as our, our pasta, if you will.
Um, that has a, a very nice skin feel. Is not sticky. And, and you know, then we use, use that with, along with the whatever active and kind of do some testing even there to make sure that the feel is still nice even with, with the active included, because there are times where we have twice as much active as we have our polymer base, you know, because of the.
And depending on the amount of active that, that they wanna put in, but by weight, you know, we have twice as much. So the, obviously the, the feel of the active can also greatly affect the overall feel of the banana drop.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. And before [00:17:00] the consumer adds any product to it, is it, does it sort of have a dry touch? Does it have a bit of a, a slip to it if you've added an oil or, I'm trying to imagine
Laura: and soft.
Deanna: I'm sorry.
Laura: It's very dry and soft. So it's, you know, if you think about, um,
Deanna: It doesn't feel like ravioli. I know
Laura: ball? No, no, no.
Deanna: Okay.
Laura: Definitely not. If you, you know, if you think about a cotton ball, it's much, much softer. You know, it's just, it's very, uh, um, it's got a very nice feel to it. Very soft.
Deanna: Okay. Excellent. Thank you. We're in indulging my curiosity there. Now, um, given your academic background and your professional work, um, I would call you a nanofiber specialist. I assume you have a genuine fascination with all things nanofiber and um. I hope you're reasonably imaginative. My question for you is, uh, what else might we be doing with Nanofiber technology?
Are there opportunities for beauty product innovation that exist here? Things you're dreaming up.[00:18:00]
Laura: Oh, absolutely. Yes. Um, well, you know, so I, I do work kind of in the, in the r and d, um, uh, you know, with, with nano fibers and have for many years, uh, even previous to my role here at Tyke, but, you know, some of the areas that we're, you know, looking at now, one is oral care. So the nano fibers actually stick very well to the, the buccal tissue in your mouth.
Um, so that would be, you know, somewhere I would want to investigate. Also looking at something like fragrance, you know, some type of a a, a dry fragrance, um, hair care. You know, you mentioned there are some in hair care. I think there's some other applications there that we could, that we could look at as well.
And even going kind of outside of beauty a little bit in the kind of outdoor space. Right. You know what I mean? That's, if somebody's. Yeah, out outdoors and, and wants to take along. So they don't, they don't want a lot of weight. They don't want liquid things that are going to spill and, and, and ruin their bag, you know, kind of, um, scenario.
So I, I feel like there's also [00:19:00] some potential there as well. So I think, I mean, really with nano fibers. I've had people ask me for years now because I've been working with them for so long. You know, what, what can you use nano fibers for? And it's, it's a question that, that really gets, gets me talking usually because there are, there are really so many different applications because, you know, you start with the polymer choice.
And, you know, there are all of these different polymers that you can use. And then once you have your polymer that you're using to actually form the fiber, you can put all different additives in there, uh, or different actives in, and then you have different formats. I mean, there's just so many different levers that you can pull and, and, and different aspects of the development that it is really, is just endless possibilities in terms of, of what you can use net fibers to do.
Deanna: That's so fun. Thank you. Um, and. Everyone listening probably knows already that I'm a big fan of partnerships. Uh, so I'd be curious to hear from you, particularly sort of as a scientist, what it's [00:20:00] like to work in partnership with another company's team. I believe you teamed up on the NanoDrop project. Um, is collaboration just a, a bunch of emails or is there some real time hands-on stuff?
What does it mean for a team of scientists, you know, to work with another team and, and create something?
Laura: Uh, yeah. So as, as you said, we, we did team up with, uh, Tel Nano Fiber company or for short SC in South Africa, and we actually Tiki USA and SC formed a joint development. Company called Bohi Beauty. And so that's the, you know, that's what we're working through as the, as the development arm. And
Deanna: had to be some emails in there somewhere, but I want the science
Laura: not, not as many as you would think, actually, we, we, very few emails go back and forth because we have, uh, uh, an online platform where we, where we work together.
So everything, you know, every project, every request, every. Um, you know, in information, piece of information is [00:21:00] all housed in this online portal that we both can access. So when, you know, when I, they're in South Africa, so obviously I get up and their, their workday is, you know, well underway. Um, if not almost ending, uh, you know, there's all of the things that I can look at to see, you know, what, what was completed today, what was, you know, what stability ended today and now we have the results.
Or, you know, what ingredient came in. It's all. Contained in this online platform. So we do a lot of communication via that platform to kind of keep track of all the projects, where we are at, uh, what are the next steps, uh, but then we also meet in person, well, virtually, of course in person, uh, you know, a couple times a week as well.
So there's just a lot of communication that goes into it. Which is great because I, I work remotely, so it's really kind of my, the team, the team I work with most is, is in South Africa also. I did, I did get a chance a few years ago to go visit their facility, and I think that was very helpful. I know about 15 years [00:22:00] ago, I remember telling someone that I, I felt like after one in-person meeting with a customer, all the emails after that went so much smoother.
You know, the communication was just so much better. Once you had that one. Just one interaction was all it took. Same thing here. You know, once I had the visit to the facility, uh, being able to understand, you know, what, what they have in terms of equipment, what, where their rooms are located, getting to meet the personnel, getting to understand, you know, their, their environment and everything really helped for me to, to know what, what I can ask of them and what to expect.
And then of course, I think in another, any partnership is understanding your roles. Where, where, what your strengths are. So being, sitting in the US here, um, I'm actually in Ohio, it's a much easier for me to get samples from ingredient suppliers than it is for them. So that's something that I often will do, and I'll do a initial evaluation of a ingredient to see how does this dissolve with [00:23:00] an NanoDrop, how does it feel once it's dissolved?
Uh, those kind of, you know, just first looks at it just to kind of help out with, with the development from my side. And then of course, you know, they have the equipment there to, to make the, the nano drops. And so when anytime samples are needed, the request is put through, again, the, the online, um, portal that we have.
And so, yeah, that, that's really key. It's just that constant communication daily, you know, to, to understand, you know, what, where everything is at and, and what needs done and, and make sure everybody's on the same page.
Deanna: No, that's fantastic. I really appreciate your sharing that. Um, and, and Laura, I have to say, the, the whole conversation with you has been so informational. I thank you for being my guest today on the Cosmo Factory Podcast.
Laura: For having me. It was, it was great to talk to you and I, I always loved listening to the podcast, so it was a, a pleasure to be, be your guest as well.
[00:24:00]