Montana Funk (00:13):
This is Young Lawyer Rising, brought to you by the ABA Young Lawyers Division and produced by Moraine Media. Welcome back listeners. This is your host, Montana Funk. Today I'm joined by Dr. Lauren Brit Skattum. Dr. Skattum is an obstetrician gynecologist in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. She has served as chief resident and held leadership positions at the American College of Osteopathic Obstetrics and Gynecology. Today she joins me to discuss impacts of adrenal fatigue, burnout, and stress on our bodies and how all individuals, whether in a professional setting or even at home, can make their health a priority. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoy this episode. Good morning, Dr. Skattum. How are you doing today?
Dr. Lauren Skattum (01:01):
Hi Montana. I'm doing wonderful. Thanks for asking.
Montana Funk (01:04):
Good, good to hear. So talking today, just kind about working in either a stressful environment or balancing maybe a profession that has high demands, et cetera, and really just the different health impacts that they may have in those environments. Just jumping right in today, if you don't mind just providing a, I guess, quick explanation or background of the certain maybe more prevalent issues that you see in these kinds of professions with higher stress environments and ones that we'll be talking about just in general today.
Dr. Lauren Skattum (01:39):
Sure, absolutely. For anyone who is a high performer and has a lot of need pushed on them throughout the day, which I would consider attorneys, physicians, and even stay at home moms, believe it or not, have a lot of just constant and sometimes ever-changing needs that are required of them. As a result, sometimes we feel very overwhelmed and our stress responses can get the best of us. So even with normal disease processes, usually stress will make any of those worse. And so this can have an effect on your immune system. This can have an effect on your cardiovascular system. Sleep is often impacted how we choose to cope with that stress, whether it's consuming substances or alcohol. If it is, we tend to work harder and skip the gym if we binge on alcohol or food. We're all looking to medicate that stress in some way and honestly, it can affect every part of your health.
Montana Funk (02:59):
Absolutely, and I guess I should ask you, is there situations where maybe someone's listening and thinking, okay, I don't actually feel that stressed or I didn't think that I was that stressed, but here I am kind of feeling sluggish or I'm not sleeping well, kind of those things where you can talk to those listeners and is it just in an area where you actually feel stressed? I can imagine a lot of the times, especially in jobs like yours, myself as well, where we're go, go, go. I'm sure there's people out there that don't even realize what's happening when it's actually happening.
Dr. Lauren Skattum (03:34):
For sure. So we are very attuned in our culture and especially our professions to push beyond the limits of normal functioning of our bodies telling us that we are tired or we are stressed. Sometimes that looks like you just order a double espresso instead of a regular espresso. You decide that, well, you have that project or that presentation or that trial or whatever it is, and so I'm just not going to sleep this week and I'm going to catch up this weekend, or it's just this period of time and afterwards is going to be fine. Sometimes it looks like you have a lot on your plate that you're managing a lot and then you're asked to do one more thing. And for most of us, we are our people who, I guess I will speak for myself that whenever somebody needs something, I am always the person who says, yes, absolutely.
(04:44):
I may not know how I'm going to do it, but I will figure it out. If you are constantly saying those things over time, that will erode your physical health, your mental health. Even in times where I recently moved from Florida to South Dakota and I was wrapping up a very busy practice, I had planned to start my own practice moving across the country, moving my kids, leaving my mom, and if you had asked me if I felt stressed, I would've told you it was like, I mean it's like busy, but it's not anything crazy. It's not anything above and beyond what I would consider abnormal, and I really just didn't in the moment even consider that it would've been something that I couldn't take care of. And then fast forward three months and I hit a wall. I remember taking my kids to school and coming home and taking a four hour nap, waking back up and going to get them. I was beyond exhausted decades of exhaustion. And so sometimes you have to be able to sit still long enough to realize that the things that you're going through are actually affecting you because in the middle of it sometimes you are just keeping going. That law of physics where an object in motion will stay in motion until you sit down and you stop. Do you realize that, wow, this is really having a turn on me?
Montana Funk (06:25):
Right. And I have to say, when you said the coffee analogy there, I laughed because that's me too a tea. I'm definitely the person that's like, well have a double espresso shot and then I'll have an energy drink and then it's lunch and I haven't actually ate anything. But I feel like sometimes we kind of operate at least myself better in chaos where it's okay if I actually have 800 things to do today, I don't have time to really have that lull and think about it, so I just get 'em done. Which kind of like you're saying then when you actually do get a chance to sit down, you realize, oh man, I've kind of hit this wall. And a term that I've heard and that you're obviously familiar with is this term of adrenal fatigue. And quite frankly, I don't honestly know too much about what that means, but I believe it's kind of what we're talking about. So can you kind of explain what that term means in of itself and kind of how that ties into this discussion that we're having about health?
Dr. Lauren Skattum (07:22):
Sure, absolutely. So your adrenals are these little tiny hat organs that sit on top of your kidneys and they produce a hormone called cortisol. They produce other hormones as well. A lot of them are steroid hormones that are important and especially for women, your menstrual cycle, they have a lesser effect than your ovaries, but are still very important and they, cortisol is the hormone that is produced under stress. It is the hormone that your body secretes to run away from the saber tooth tiger on Serengeti, and it is mint for very short bursts. And then two, come back down when you have adrenal fatigue. And I would encourage people that if they have real concerns, I would talk to your doctor first because it's really easy to kind of chalk everything up to stress and be like, oh yeah, I'm fine. I just have this overuse and this overstress situation where my adrenals and those stress hormones have been ramped up and have outed their ability to produce enough cortisol because it's not that you're running away from the tiger for a couple hours or one day.
(08:47):
Now you're running away from the tiger, at least in my situation for decades and through law school and through clerkship, and now you've gotten to be an associate and now you have to prove yourself and now that tiger is chasing you every single day. So while that might be true, you also want to rule out that it is a true medical cause of something else that is going on, but if everything checks out and your doctor says you're okay, but you're still feeling all this, it might really be related to that stress response. Cortisol has a natural rise in the morning and it helps wake you up. It is peaking at the time of your wakefulness and then it slowly goes down throughout the day. Caffeine, interestingly enough, is kind of like a cortisol rescue. And so what it does is as it's peaking as you wake up and then it starts to go down, caffeine helps it just be like, okay, nope. We're just, oh, nope, we're going to have that double shot and it's going to just kind of trend back down. But if you don't have enough cortisol because you are constantly running from the tiger, then you don't get that high enough peak. You haven't rested long enough and caffeine will only carry you so far.
Montana Funk (10:13):
Right, and that makes sense. And I guess is there certain things that someone can look out for before they even hit that point of having high cortisol or whatever it may be? I mean, what is a way that listeners can actually be like, okay, I think I'm heading towards this red zone and these are the telltale signs, like, okay, no, you need to slow down.
Dr. Lauren Skattum (10:35):
That's a great question. So the end tail of adrenal fatigue is burnout, which is also a very common term these days. We all have our own telltale sign of when we feel anxious, and even though sitting down and stopping and evaluating is the first step for someone, it could be they get a knot in their throat, their stomach starts to turn, they can feel that their jaw has clenched, they have more of an anxiety reaction, and it's one of those things where everybody is different and until you kind of sit down and you're like, oh yeah, I had eight people asking me this and I could feel it in my chest that I'm starting to get worked up about this. So part of it is you have to identify what that is for you. The next step is that once you have worked through these coping mechanisms, whether it is that extra shot of expresso or it is that night cap or the ketchup at the bar after work, we're all self-medicating in some, if it's the pint of ice cream that you eat at night, all of those things are helping us to cope with these mechanisms.
(12:01):
But once it gets more into a mental state where your mindset isn't, okay, yep, I got this. You know what, this period of time is going to be hard, and then we kind of move on. Once you get to more of that cynical, it doesn't matter how hard I work, it doesn't matter what I do, I'm just always tired, I'm never catching up, it's just not working. And then you take a deep breath and you just go at it again for round two, that's really when those danger signs are starting to and your body is really starting to flare up and scream at you that something has to change.
Montana Funk (12:45):
So it sounds like especially I am sure we have people who are listening being like, okay, I do have that anxious feeling or I have that lump in my throat or my stomach's upset. So am I correct in the understanding that it seems like it can manifest different for everyone, but when you're starting to notice just different changes in your body itself outside the norm of how you feel every day, is it correct that maybe that's when you need to start paying attention and being like, okay, are these warning signs or is this just a weird thing that's occurring for today?
Dr. Lauren Skattum (13:17):
Exactly. So for me, even if I stop sleeping, that is a big detriment in my life, is really hard to function or have clarity when you're tired. And so I know that if I haven't slept in two, three days because my mind is working out how I'm going to run away from that tiger, then I really need to do something. Something has to take a break to take a halt because I have got to get some sleep. Whether that's asking for help, whether that's delegating, whether that's moving a deadline, something has to change even if it's for a short period of time to be able to reign it back in. Oftentimes if you can get to a scheduled way of taking care of you, then you don't have to hit that brick wall to be able to take three months and have to recoup your life.
(14:19):
But if you have scheduled breaks, I live and die by my calendar, and so having a couple hours here or 30 minutes here that I have decided that, okay, I am going to just have some time where I don't do anything. I'm going to listen to a podcast, I'm going to go take a break and go for a walk having scheduled times, it's built in the schedule as very busy people. We live and die by the schedule and it's on the schedule, so you got to do it. And then just taking small steps to care for you. If you are constantly dehydrated from caffeine or energy drinks or whatever that is, then your brain needs water. Your brain is 80% water. So I didn't actually learn this until just a couple years ago that we should be chugging eight ounces of water before we have to do mentally taxing things as opposed to having that cup of espresso because the water is actually fueling how your neurons are connecting in your brain having nourishment.
(15:31):
I'm going to pick on you Montana, if you haven't eaten all day, then your body doesn't have anything to run on. So even if it's just like a handful of berries or some carrots and hummus, those are the things that help fuel your body process. Foods while they're convenient are arguably not really food and are very much not nourishing moving your body. One of my best friends is an attorney and she got a walking pad under her desk at my suggestion, and she walks like six to eight miles now she can write briefs on. She's very short and she has a really good clip that even for me and I'm very tall, is quite impressive. And so sometimes it's not figuring out what the best change is. It doesn't have to be some overarching catastrophic, I'm going to leave my job or I'm going to move across the country. Anything like that. Sometimes it's just figuring out how to work within your own constraints. It's like you, if you're at a desk a lot, then let's figure out how to make the desk work for you.
Montana Funk (16:45):
I think the walking pad is a brilliant idea. I have a couple people in my office who do that and I'm very impressed every time I see them walking and typing because it is a task. But I think that that's a good point. It's just kind of the habits people can develop to help themselves kind of prevent this before it gets a little bit too far. And I want to take a quick break, but when we come back, I do want to touch a little bit more on those ways that anyone can prevent these things.
(17:16):
So you were kind of mentioning before the break that there's certain things we can do, right? I'm guilty of not always eating the best or even eating at all, and that's not going to help or drinking water, having maybe something that's actually good for you outside of ice cream, even though I love ice cream and it's a comfort food, but love ice cream, it's so easy also to come home and be like, okay, terrible day. I'm going to eat a massive bowl of ice cream and forego dinner. I'm so guilty of just being right to dessert. But what are other ways that just in general, anybody, no matter who we are, can kind of implement little changes into their everyday life to help get ahead of this adrenal fatigue and burnout and just ways they can prevent it that they can just add that maybe may be like one or two little things that don't take a lot of time or effort that we can do.
Dr. Lauren Skattum (18:07):
So one thing I would say is to make sure that you have made time for you and that you find whatever it is that feels your soul, whether that is reading or if it is creative writing, if it's painting, if it's rock climbing, these are some of mine. I love yoga. I love to run. What is it that is something that just brings you joy for the sake of joy? And I would make sure that you have that on your calendar, even if it's only just for a couple minutes each day. That makes a big difference because now you're feeding yourself, and as my husband loves to remind me, you cannot pour from an empty bucket, so you cannot give what you do not have. And so you have to fill yourself before you can pour into your clients or others. One other thing that I have recently started to institute is actually just deep breathing.
(19:15):
I am also someone who thrives in a moderate amount of chaos, and if there's too much quiet, then I don't do really well with that. I also don't do really well with 18 people asking me for things at one time. So to take a step back and even if it's just to take a couple of big deep breaths, I can feel it rising in my chest. So whatever your trigger is that once you notice it and you're like, okay, I can feel it in my body. If you will take a step back and take a big deep breath in for a count of 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, hold it for a second and then breathe out for a count of six. I had many people tell me this for literally years and I didn't ever do it. I did this at one point in time and they're like, you know what?
(20:03):
It only takes a couple minutes. I was like, no, it doesn't. You have to be able to do this for 20 minutes or something like that. I don't have 20 minutes. And as I have practiced this over the last, I would even say two weeks, this is not something that is a long-term benefit to me. This is a new implementation for myself that I have found very helpful is that as I do this, even if it's just a couple times, I did it at a stoplight this morning and it took me three deep breaths and I felt so much better. And it just brings that I'm going to be running from the tiger feeling down to that kind of rest relaxation. There's the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous and that sympathetic is the running from the tiger. And that parasympathetic is that okay, I can actually get down to where my creativity is and my heart isn't racing, and that anxiety feeling isn't coming up that it just lets it just mellow out a little bit to be able to then resume running from the tiger.
(21:11):
But even taking just those couple deep breaths is really helpful. And then I would just encourage people to have community, especially young attorneys and young physicians and anyone else that's in a very high needs profession. There is so many resources out there for you now. There's a whole culture of workplace wellness that is available to you and even podcasts like this that you can reach out to. And I know at least for me, when I was in residency, we didn't have a lot of this first of all, but I also firmly believe that I was like, I know everybody else says that they're tired and they're burned out. And you're like, you know what? I feel fine. I'm just doing the next thing. And then somebody has a case that gets add it on and be like, oh yeah, no, I'll go, no, I didn't need to sleep today.
(22:12):
It's fine. I'll go do it. And at some point I never thought it would happen to me and fast forward again a couple decades and then there you are. For some reason I'm surprised even though I am the physician that's trying to tell everybody else what to do that I'm not doing myself. So it is inevitable that it happens if you don't take steps early and often and the earlier the intervention and the smaller the steps, then you don't have to make these big massive shifts back to center if you're constantly doing just small corrections to take care of you.
Montana Funk (22:57):
I like the breath pattern that you were just talking about. I tried to do it along with you when you were explaining it, and I think I need to implement that more in my life. So that's something that kind of like I'd asked that everybody listening can take just even a couple minutes or other day. Like you said, it doesn't need to be this huge 20, 30 minute task, just taking a couple of seconds to do it, kind of ground yourself. I think that that's something I definitely can work more on. And you'd mentioned earlier saying yes to everyone, you don't really realize how much you're taking on or sometimes I feel like it's kind of a badge of honor to be like, oh, I'm doing so well. I'm taking all this stuff on and I'm not exhausted, or we are and we just don't realize. So I think that's really important. And I want to take one quick break, but I want to come back and talk about employers and how they can actually help implement these behaviors. So there's going to be people who I'm sure are listening who think, okay, during the day I just don't have the time. My employers expect A, B, C, and D of me. What are ways that actual employers or partners or managers, higher ups, what can they do to help encourage this space to allow their employees to actually grow and take care of their mental health? What are some implementations that you find help in general in the workplace?
Dr. Lauren Skattum (24:30):
I think clear communication is very important and I think that is a two-way street. And sometimes as the employer is just working to get stuff done, just having a mindfulness about that, no one should ever have to sacrifice the individual for the good of the company. But also too, if there's all of these other tasks that constantly get added on or Oh, hey, I need you to do this thing, or Oh, you know what? I really need you to just go work this over the weekend to be confident enough to ask the question of like, okay, is this something that is a one-time thing or is this something where the needs of the company are changing? Is it something where we need to hire somebody? Is this a project that is going to require many, many months of extra time? And then to state what it is, you need to then accomplish that, okay, I can work extra, I can work really hard on this project, but I'm going to need some extra help. I'm going to need someone that can run and do these things. I am going to need some help finding childcare. What is it that is the biggest barrier to your success? And to ask that of yourself, but also for the employers to ask that because if your people are not good, then you, you'll make it through this project or this trial or this task right now. But in the long term it's your people where you win.
Montana Funk (26:23):
And also I always think we can't fully give the quote you said about emptying your cup and you can't give what's not in it. And that really resonates with me because no matter what area you work in, whether it's law, medicine, teacher, mom, whatever it may be, the people that you have to help and are working for can't get your full potential if you're not taking care of yourself. So I appreciate you talking about the communication piece of it too and having employees and employers ask, okay, what do I need or what do my employers need? My employees need to get through this. And something I'm curious about is if you see, because I know obviously social media is huge nowadays and you go on Instagram or Facebook and you see these videos saying, if you have A, B, C, D, you must have high cortisol.
(27:17):
This is what you should do to get rid of it. And are there any misconceptions that you see out there on the internet or in the media that you think, okay, this is preached a lot? I think one I'm thinking of is guha this new thing of guha. People say, I don't know if it works. I've never done it, but that's one that I constantly see. So are there any misconceptions that you can point to that or maybe they're not misconceptions, but something that is too heavily relied on that you would say to our listeners, okay, if you see this, you also need to make sure that you're including A, B, C, and D.
Dr. Lauren Skattum (27:52):
Yeah, I would say that the supplements in things like that definitely have their place. Guha Ashwagandha L three Sine is another one that you take at night that helps drop your cortisol. We actually use that in a lot of different traveling across time zone protocols to adjust those all can be very helpful, but in the end, those are just other coping mechanisms that are just helping you continue to run from the tiger. And so are they effective in the short term? Sure, absolutely. Different ones are more effective for different people, but really where and if that gets you to a point where you can actually sit down and then have some time to evaluate where you are, is this to go through the, okay, in this part of my life, in my physical life, am I nourishing myself? Am I moving my body every day?
(29:00):
Am I getting sleep? How does my body feel? And you're like, okay, well that one, I feel like it's probably okay. Am I saying yes when I really mean no? Is my mental state in a place where I feel like, okay, I feel good not just run down and why am I always doing this? A really cynical outlook on life. The world is not bright and shiny and oh yeah, it's going to be okay, but oh my gosh, they wanted me to do this thing again. Are your relationships intact? Have you worked so much that your family or your kids haven't seen you or heard from you? What other substances are you consuming or coping with? Is it, I also love pizza, so not just the ice cream same, but what are you coping with? Is it sugar? Is it fatty foods, is it alcohol?
(29:55):
Is it other drugs? Is it I'm going to take all these supplements because I literally just can't get through it without this whole bevy of things. So they are helpful, but they are a short-term fix and in the end they're a bandaid. And so I would encourage everyone to take some time wherever that time is, and even if it's only five minutes, do a five minute check-in, okay, this is how I feel today, what would make me happy today? What would fill that bucket? Because in the end is easier to manage small things and stay out of trouble than it is to get out of trouble.
Montana Funk (30:42):
That's funny you say that because my next question is kind of leading into that, the point of, okay, you've gone maybe too far or it's gotten too much and you're now in it, you're having experiencing burnout, you're experiencing this crazy amount of fatigue. You're relying on whatever it may be to help, like you said, bandage up for the time being what you're going through. So what do you do then? What do you do if you're now like, okay, I actually think I'm here. How do I get out of this burnout?
Dr. Lauren Skattum (31:14):
That's a great question. I would say that the first step is you have to stop whether that is, and that probably goes and starts with talking to your employer and hopefully there's workplace wellness things available in a lot of offices now and that you would utilize that early and often. But if you find yourself there, sometimes you need a break, you need a sabbatical, you need a week, you need a month, sometimes you need three months. But in that time of kind of recovery, you also have to put in place those systems, whether that is scheduling or maybe you only do specific kind of cases that don't drain you or you build in those times to fill up that bucket to ensure that when you go back, whether that's in a week or three months or whatever it is, that you're not just there for round two to run from the tiger, that you have a way to do it better to take care of you.
(32:33):
And our culture is that badge of honor. Busy is a badge of honor. I actually have a friend too who has denoted that busy is now a four letter word. We don't say busy. Our schedules might be full, but if we're busy, then something really needs to have some evaluation and in a culture where we are going at a million miles a minute, we have all this technology, we have ai, we have all of this information that's incoming that we have to make decisions with. I really believe that it is going to be those people who have the ability to look within themselves, synthesize how they're feeling and make those quick intuitive decisions about where to put their energy are going to be the ones that do the best, that really win, that have that long career because they have taken care of themselves earlier. Because in the end, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And to look at it of okay, from working from the future of like, okay, how am I going to plan this out? And to know that you don't have to sell your soul and sacrifice your body and your health for the ultimate goal.
Montana Funk (34:05):
It almost seems as if being busy, like you said, the four letter word that has become so common now to be seen as okay if you're the busiest associate or the busiest partner or you're being pulled from every direction, you're so professional and you're so respected, et cetera. But it seems from what you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, but we need to be careful that we don't lose ourselves in the time being when we're doing that because then we are going to start seeing lower performance and being able to give less and putting in our schedule kind of like you'd mentioned, just even if it's five minutes time to check in with yourself is actually going to benefit us more in the long run then if we are to ignore all these signs so that we can be seen as the one who's constantly busy and constantly saying yes. And like I said, doctor, if I'm wrong, obviously correct me, but it kind of seems like we need to find that balance between okay, still obviously do your work, be professional, be responsible, but also make sure that we're checking in with ourselves because that's really the only way we can fully give to others as well.
Dr. Lauren Skattum (35:13):
Yes and no. I don't know that I really believe in balance, but I do believe that if you think of your energy as a bucket and you check in that five minutes where the bucket is, I think there's an adult book, I'm very sure there's a children's book that talks about how full your bucket is. You can look at a schedule and have things that even though there's a lot on there, is it something that has a net energy drain or a net energy give? And so if it's one of those things where you've got a lot going on, but your energy levels are such that you aren't just being pulled down, bone dry trying to figure out how you're going to do all of this, then that's one thing. But if it's something where you, whatever. So my kids have a lot of sporting events that is something that I really enjoy.
(36:18):
I love going to watch them. I love watching their practices, and so while it's on the schedule, it is something that I really enjoy. So if it's something that you have that you have five minutes, so if your day is just a soul suck of terrible meetings and a trial or preparation or whatever it is, then you have got to build in five minute increments into the schedule of that's going to lift you back up just a little bit. I would encourage you to go take a walk, go chug a glass of water and eat some berries or some nuts or something that nourishes you that you can come back and be better. I am a very much an all or nothing person. If I can't give it an hour and a half workout at the gym, I don't want to do it. And over time, I have learned that that is not always the best. My level of commitment is awesome, but that level of commitment in five minute increments is way more doable for me and something that I can implement in a way that doesn't just totally interfere with my day. That is easy to put into that busy schedule. You can do the walking pad at your desk, you can take those deep breaths, you can jug that water at work even with a full busy schedule and it doesn't have to completely derail all the other billion things that you have going on.
Montana Funk (37:53):
Yeah, it seems like you can still do both. It's just making sure you find that space to give yourself that five minutes so that you can continue to be busy and do all the things you want to do while also making sure you're making room for yourself as well and the things that you enjoy in those five minutes, kind of like you said, which I think is really important and easy to look over in a lot of these professions where you are go, go, go. So there's definitely a lot of things I'm going to be incorporating from this episode after this and something that I always like to end off with. And I think the easiest question is for listeners who are tuning in and maybe want more information, have some follow-up questions of things we haven't discussed, can you just tell them where they can either find you or other resources they may go to that address this topic that may provide more insight for them as well?
Dr. Lauren Skattum (38:42):
Absolutely. There are tons of other podcasts out there and lots of books. You can find us at Britt Haus, B-R-I-T-T-H-A-U-S.com. We have a contact page at the back so that if you have questions, you can fill that out and it comes straight to us and we'll get back to you on anything you want to know. There's Instagram and Facebook are also Britt Haus. There's lots of options out there, but I would encourage you to take that five minutes, figure out what it is that you need, what it is you want to implement, and then try it for a week. If it doesn't work, pick something else. It's not anything that you have to be married to. Maybe the breathing part doesn't work for you, but maybe the walking pad or the walk really does pick and choose the things that are good for you. And if you're doing these things and you're still not better, definitely recheck back in with your physician.
Montana Funk (39:46):
Dr. Skattum, thank you so much for joining today. I am now determined to go have a really healthy lunch after this, and I actually have berries and I was going to make a smoothie bowl, so now perfect. I'm even more inspired by that. But seriously, I do appreciate you talking to us about this because I do think it's so easy for us to get kind of lost in our everyday work and the go go and forget to kind of check in with ourselves, which is really important. So thank you so much.
Dr. Lauren Skattum (40:13):
Absolutely. Thank you, Montana.
Montana Funk (40:16):
Well, listeners, that is our show. Thank you as always for tuning in. And if you like what you heard today, please recommend us to a friend. We can be found anywhere that you listen to podcasts. Until next time, this is your host Montana Funk, and you've been listening to Young Lawyer Rising, brought to by the ABA Young Lawyers Division and produced by Moraine Media.
