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The Life of And podcast is for high-achieving women and working parents who are ready to stop living a life of “have to” and start designing a life they actually want. It’s a space where we talk honestly about the things we’re often afraid to admit — even to ourselves. The exhaustion. The ambition. The loneliness. The joy. The tension of wanting more without losing yourself in the process.
If you’re in the thick of it — feeling stretched, tired, hopeful, driven — this is your invitation to take a breath, get real, and find your way back to your own Life of And.
Brian Kavicky (00:00):
Bonding and rapport is not really about, can I get you to like me? Is can I make the experience of having a conversation with me effortless? Can I remove the friction from our conversation? Can I make it to your point flow easily or not? How easy was I to talk to is the nature of bonding rapport.
Tiffany Sauder (00:20):
I'm Tiffany Sauder, entrepreneur, wife, mom to four girls, and a woman figuring it out just like you. Come on, let's go build your Life of And. If you're responsible for generating revenue, closing sales, or really creating any kind of forward motion through approvals or decisions with customers, this is a must listen episode. Have you ever been in a sales process or a big project that had approval points and the conversations felt like really good, like genuinely good. You felt heard, they seemed engaged and you left thinking, "This is totally moving." And then they ghosted you. Or it got awkward and you were like sort of this like, "Thanks, we'll be in touch" email came. And now you're sitting there thinking like, "How do I follow up? How many times am I being annoying? Did I read that whole thing wrong? Yeah, I've been there in this exact place more times than I would like to admit." And so this is what we're going to dig into today.
(01:17):
I brought back Brian Kavicky from Lushin back to the show today because this is his world. And for over 20 years, Brian has been coaching executives, entrepreneurs, and sales teams on exactly these kinds of questions and problems. How do we make sure we're not just having good conversations and making friends, but we're having real connections that are creating real value. Brian, this is what we're going to dig into today. Ready. All right. So I have lots of different businesses with Life of And I am responsible for generating the revenue. With the two businesses that I own, I'm working closely with president, CEOs who have ultimate responsibility for the P&L. And it's like sales velocity gives you a chance to keep testing and trying and getting better. And when sales velocity goes away, you're like at a standstill and you don't have that sort of fault.
(02:14):
I'm like picturing water running. You don't have the flow through to actually be able to keep getting better because you're paralyzed by this problem of revenue. So I want us to talk about I've had some conversations recently. I've seen some of this in my own habits, old sort of bad habits diehard coming into my world of generating revenue for Life of And and being like, dang, I can get caught up in the conversation being good and maybe the conversation not being as productive as it needs to be. So what's happening? How do we unpack this? How do we help people listening with this?
Brian Kavicky (02:48):
So there's two things you said. One is you said I have been in those situations where I walked away from a conversation saying, "That was a great conversation." The other thing you said is that a lot of these are facilitations of decisions. So are these decisions being made or these points landing, all of those things. Those two things are, they should be synonymous. In other words, I should be judging the success or the failure of the conversation based on decisions being made, but where people say, "I feel good," it means they've shifted to judging the conversation based on how they feel about the conversation. So that could be, "I was funny. They were very engaged. They asked good questions. They liked my answers." Those are all things of, was your presentation good? It might have been good. It was your bonding and rapport good? Yeah, it was great, but that doesn't mean that you advanced the conversation or that you got any further because the barometer of success of whether something is productive or not is was a decision made.
(03:53):
It doesn't matter if it was a decision in your favor or not, it's was a decision made.
Tiffany Sauder (03:57):
So can we separate this maybe into two, I'm going to say sort of macro sections. One is bonding and rapport, which is the quote that all things being equal people buy from people they like, all things not being equal people buy from people they like. Do you think that's true or do you think that's baloney?
Brian Kavicky (04:16):
There's a third one is that
Tiffany Sauder (04:17):
People buy from people. Of course, of course there's a third one. Well,
Brian Kavicky (04:22):
There's a series. You gave the first two. The third is all things being equal, people buy from people who are like them.
(04:28):
So if my goal is I want them to like me, like is not great. If I said name all the people in your life that you just like, that is a very hard list to come up with. Love and hate much easier, but like as a goal is not good. And when people are pursue of like, they're really in pursuit of, I don't want to upset, I don't want to rock the boat, I don't want to push. All of those things, it's protecting that they don't hate me versus I'm actually trying to get liked. So bonding and rapport is not really about, can I get you to like me? Is can I make the experience of having a conversation with me effortless? Can I remove the friction from our conversation? Can I make it, to your point, flow easily or not? Because bonding means to stick.
(05:16):
Rapport actually is the French word for to move together or flow together. So if I can make the conversation stick and I can move with them, that's removal of friction, that should be how I know whether I did ... Was the conversation easy? Did the other person feel effortless? Were they open and honest with me? Were they sharing things? If I disagreed, did they listen to me or were they defensive? How easy was I to talk to is the nature of bonding rapport.
Tiffany Sauder (05:43):
So is bonding rapport a skill that can be learned? Yes. Because when I first stumbled upon you, my 20 something year old self, I was like, I have charisma and I'm generally likable. That was sort of my raw ingredients of energy and confidence. So that is not bonding rapport as you're talking about it, like charisma and being likable. That's just a personality trait. Bonding rapport is a skill.
Brian Kavicky (06:07):
Bonding and rapport is really the first step of how do I make this conversation and environment about what they need, not what I need. So your charisma is going to upset somebody. They're going to say, "Oh, Tiffany, she's a lot." But knowing, oh, if I'm with that kind of person who's going to react to my natural charisma, I got to dial it back in this conversation. So the skill is I have to be aware when I'm talking to someone that I might rub the wrong way and I have to know what to do in order to make myself more like them so that I'm easier to converse with and not that different opposite personality. So an introverted, quiet person might have a hard time with you. Well, how do you become some version of what that introverted quiet person needs to have? So it's diagnosis and dial back.
Tiffany Sauder (06:54):
We were using me as an example there, but if you were going to talk about this is, is there a toolkit or some things that we can share with listeners around? If you want to get better at the skill of bonding and rapport, these are things to do or know or how to enter so that you are making it about them and their problem and not your own preferences. I think back to the first time I tried to sell it to Karen who now has worked for me for a hundred years, but she's a high SC and I am a high ID and she generally is annoyed by people like me.
Brian Kavicky (07:31):
But she likes
Tiffany Sauder (07:32):
You. Now we do. But she's cautious because I'm all ... And she's like, "I don't know. " So it just makes me laugh.
Brian Kavicky (07:39):
So what to do about it? The first and the easiest and the least expensive way is to take a DiSC assessment and don't read the assessment of what did I learn about myself. It's read the assessment to understand what I learn about people who are not like me. Because if I know the other personalities, if I know how other personalities are going to respond to me, I know how to identify people who are different from me, because you use she's an SC, those are DiSC terms, that would be the first step is learn DiSC, learn how to identify people and learn what they need from a communication style to do that. The second thing that somebody can do without taking an assessment is start paying attention to words that people use.
(08:24):
As human beings, we take in information either visually, auditorily, like we hear things or kinesthetically I feel. And so if I listen to words that people use like, "Hey, can you paint me a picture?" Or, "Can you show me? " That's a visual person. If it's, "Hey, can you tell me or can you tell me a story or can you rehash that's an auditory?" Or, "I don't feel good about this. Can you say it in a different way that might make me feel better when they're referencing their feelings?" That's a kinesthetic. Most of the population is kinesthetic. So if I'm talking to someone and all of a sudden they start correcting or asking for me to do something in a way where they're saying, "I'm not sure what you're saying. Can you show me that? " I'll go, "Visual person, I need to draw it for them.
(09:08):
I need to be visual. I need to use visual terms." And even if you don't master that, just paying attention to, am I noticing words like that to go, "We're not communicating well right now. I need to do it a little bit differently to help them." Those would be the first two.
Tiffany Sauder (09:25):
How do you convey information to a kinesthetic learner when you're selling something like sales training or marketing or Life of And content because that is ... How do I get them to physically experience it? I think about kinesthetic learning as you're building a birdhouse, you're pounding because that's tactical.
Brian Kavicky (09:44):
Yeah. So exercises, role plays. If a kinesthetic learner says, "I want to take in information kinesthetically," it means they're not listening to you when you're standing in front of the room. It means if you're showing slides, they're not seeing the slides. They're sort of like, "Oh, where am I? What am I doing?" But if I say, "I'm going to put you through this exercise and I'm going to make you experience this and we're going to simulate this, " they're like, "Oh, now I get it
Tiffany Sauder (10:09):
Because
Brian Kavicky (10:10):
That is what they needed."
Tiffany Sauder (10:12):
Fascinating. So where are places people overcorrect or maybe exaggerate bonding and rapport in a way where it sort of gets off track? And is there maybe a tendency for women in particular to over-index in a certain way as it relates to bonding and rapport?
Brian Kavicky (10:32):
So the first question of what is a way that people overdo it is people think bonding and rapport is, it's my job to bond with you and it should be, how do I make myself easy to bond with? So they're approaching it. So they're saying things like, "What are your interests? What are you up to? What are you doing? Tell me about you. " And they're feigning interest in someone or something that they have no interest in at all just to demonstrate, "Oh, I am into you or I respect you, " or whatever those things are. Where it should be, how do I show up in a way that's authentic to myself and then pay attention to how they're responding so that I can go, "Oh, that was a little much. They didn't like that I did that. How do I adapt and adjust?" I think your question about what do women do differently to overindex is I think a lot of times women walk into the room thinking I have to prove myself.
(11:27):
So I have to demonstrate that I have control. I have to demonstrate that I know what I'm talking about. I have to demonstrate that I'm engaged in the conversation or that I say ... They're worried about the impression that they're making instead of letting things come to them and saying, "Oh, this is my moment now, or this is when I say something, or this is how I'm going to respond." In other words, slow it down. Otherwise, it's too forceful and it looks insecure.
Tiffany Sauder (11:55):
That is interesting counterbalance where the idea of trying to emote confidence actually does the exact opposite and sitting back and letting it play out. And you've always taught me, you demonstrate more about what you know by the questions you ask than the statements you make and that plays into that whole bonding and rapport piece too. And I think also there's a caricature of bonding and rapport that I think feels gross where it's like, "Oh, I see you have a Purdue flag in your ... " It just feels performative kind of. Yeah,
Brian Kavicky (12:28):
Because you're looking for ways to connect and say, "Look, we both went to Purdue
Tiffany Sauder (12:32):
Or
Brian Kavicky (12:33):
We both like the same thing." And that connection isn't really real. People are like, "Yay."
Tiffany Sauder (12:39):
Yeah, it's weird. It
Brian Kavicky (12:41):
Doesn't go great. Because if you get it wrong, they're going to bust you for it. If you're like, "Oh, I saw you have a Purdue flag. Yeah, I went to IU, but my kid goes there now. I actually hate Purdue."
Tiffany Sauder (12:50):
You're like, "Well,
Brian Kavicky (12:51):
That didn't work." And then you're stuck again.
Tiffany Sauder (12:53):
So
Brian Kavicky (12:54):
It's wasted effort. It should be this, how do I pay attention to you as a person to know how do I work
Tiffany Sauder (13:03):
With
Brian Kavicky (13:03):
You? How do I talk with you? How do I converse?
Tiffany Sauder (13:05):
So what are some good, I don't know, do you have starter questions in your pocket? I've got a few of things that are coming to mind. I've been to some events recently where there's a bunch of people and there's some questions I used. I'll share in a minute, see if they were good ones or bad ones. But are there questions you have in your pocket? Because I do think the whole visual cues of like, "Hey, look, I see you have a football." It's like, ugh.
Brian Kavicky (13:29):
I would make them contextual to what the situation is. So if I'm at a party, I'm going to ask somebody how they know the people hosting the party. If I'm at a networking event, I'm going to ask them why they wanted to come to the networking event. It's why are you here? What are you doing? I'm asking about your actions, what you want out of things. Because if I have a mechanism of how do I give in this moment versus take, I'm going to shift the rapport to I'm more of a trusting person. Or one of the powerful ones is, "I haven't met you before. Why have we never met?" And that's a, "Oh, I don't know. I do this, blah, blah, blah." They sort of open into that, "I don't know why we've never met. I don't know who you are either." And now it's this two people trying to figure out who the other person is.
(14:16):
If I'm trying to decode personalities, it would be, how long have you been doing what you're doing and why do you love it? Those answers tend to tell you what their personality is. Long term is typically introverted people. If they've been doing it a long time because introverted people don't love change so they tend to stick with something and then why do you love it? Whatever they say they love it will tell you what their personality is because people typically will admit to things that are relative to their personality.
Tiffany Sauder (14:43):
Because they see them as strengths. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We all do for sure.
Brian Kavicky (14:48):
What were your questions you would ask? I
Tiffany Sauder (14:50):
Was asking questions like, "What are you working on that's hard right now?" Yep. I like to ask questions at your end. It's like, what surprised you about 2025? I want to get the outlier stuff because that gives me some interest in where there's, I don't know, just movement. And oftentimes when there's questions they haven't already rehearsed the answer to, it's like that bonding and rapport happens more quickly because they feel a genuine like, "Oh, that was a good question." And I feel like it gives me some credibility because I think I attribute that as one of my superpowers, asking good questions and so I try to have- Yeah, it's that self ability. What's surprising? And oftentimes a good conversation will put it back on you and it gives you a chance, like you were saying, where it's a self-DiSCovery because they also don't know that answer about me.
(15:46):
Yeah. Yeah. I think it makes it generally more interesting to meet people too when you get really authentic about the bonding and rapport. My younger self definitely played the like, "Oh, I see you go to Purdue or I saw on LinkedIn, we both know this person." And it's like it really is not authentic. You don't learn anything real about that person. And so it's easily forgettable because you don't, for me, I don't have these really vivid stories of where they came from, where they're going and why it matters to them. And when you can get good at that, you do start to have these vivid stories of people and you don't forget them. It does become really specific and unique and interesting authentically and then you can think of ways to help.
(16:28):
Let me stick one more thing on this bonding and rapport because I think when you're in a place where sales are down or you're just getting started or you're still sorting through your own confidence and competence, you are bringing unknowingly your insecurities into those bonding and rapport moments and you're making it all about yourself in your head like, "Is this going to turn into a deal because I have a quote I have to hit and there's only so much time I have in a day." And it can accidentally get about you and about is this going to go anywhere because if not, I need to move on. So how do you work through that reality sometimes? Because sometimes you are in a scarce place in your head. Sometimes you are at a spot where it's like I'm behind in my sales quota and that's making me feel a certain kind of pressure in a certain kind of way.
(17:20):
How do you get clients through that moment?
Brian Kavicky (17:23):
So I'm going to use a very strong word here is that people who find themselves in that spot don't realize how repulsive they are. And repulsive doesn't mean as a person, it's just that you're repelling so much because if I pose the question, would you want to buy partner work with somebody who was desperately concerned about what you thought of them really needed your business bad and would do anything to get it? You don't have a lot of confidence in that person. So one is understanding I cannot be that person because they're just by me worrying about myself in this moment, they are going to definitely not have confidence in me. So the question that you ask yourself is, what would I do if I didn't care? What would I do if I didn't care if they liked me? What would I do if they didn't care if they hate ... They just were neutral.
(18:18):
What would I do if they didn't care if they chose me or not? What would I do if I didn't care if I messed up this presentation? Those things that you would do if you didn't care are almost always the right things to do in that scenario. So you have to decide I'm going to lie to myself and tell me myself, I can't care right now and because I don't care, I'm going to do these things and then just go execute. But you have to talk yourself into that by asking the question, what would I do if I didn't care? And you'll find that those things are all natural things you would've done anyway.
Tiffany Sauder (18:54):
So true. I like movie scripts running through my head of when I was just like, "I'm just going to launch this. What are you going to do? Fire me. " And I was like, "I was so good when I had that attitude. What are you going to do? " And it's like, "Yeah, they might fire you. " But I think it gets you clear because you're not hedging and you're not watering, diluting down your perspective and your expertise and knowledge when you just go in and kind of launch it.
Brian Kavicky (19:21):
But those things that you launched you did not do for yourself, you did for them. And so the thing that holds you back is this worry and thinking of myself which interferes with the conversation.
Tiffany Sauder (19:34):
Yes. I mean, for me personally, that has been a huge journey because I'm a high I on DiSC, which is influencer, which has a lot of interesting things about it, but other people's need for approval can become my master if I am not DiSCerning about that. And I think that personality can look like a good salesperson because you are out and talking to people and fall into this trap where you know about a lot of things, but you're not adding that much value because it's all about being like, "Oh, I got their number and they think I'm smart and that was funny and the room loved me. " But you didn't add any value, you didn't sharpen your own perspective. It was just sort of this social fest. Okay. So that's the bonding and rapport part of how do we have great conversations to add value and not just add activity to our lives.
(20:26):
Now it's actually the aspect of the actual conversation What are the mechanics inside of that? How do we think about, you said earlier, it's not about how you feel about it, it's about whether or not a decision was made. So let's sit in on that, maybe dissect it a little bit and then talk about some practices and tools.
(20:48):
I want to take a quick moment to thank my partners at Share Your Genius. For the past four years, they have been an incredible part of my journey behind the microphone. Share Your Genius is a content and podcast production agency that helps leaders and brands bring their message to life. So whether you're trying to find your voice, develop a content strategy, or get your leader behind a microphone, they're going to help you make it simple, strategic, and impactful.
Brian Kavicky (21:10):
So if you think of all the wasted time conversations you had, so that would be meetings you went to where nothing was accomplished, conversations where you went, "Well, that was dumb." Those conversations all had a missing piece as that decisions were not made. So the first decision you have to make is, "I am going to be really, really good at facilitating decisions." The way to facilitate decisions is to lay the decision on the table or to lay the order of decisions. So there is a natural progression of decisions and where people make the mistake is if I walk into a conversation and I say, "Well, what I really want them to decide is if they want to hire me. " Well, that's not the first decision. The first decision is, are you easy to talk to? The second decision is, do you have the capabilities for the job?
(21:59):
The third decision is, do you fit our culture? The next decision is, will you work for the offer that we have? And the next decision is, okay, we can extend an offer. But if I walk somebody through an interviewing process, if I was an employee of, let's figure out first if I'm capable of doing the job and that interviewer's like, "You're capable of doing the job, then the next one would be culture, blah, blah, blah." It becomes easier and faster to make those decisions. So if I'm in a situation where I'm trying to influence decision making with somebody else, I want to lay out the order of decisions and saying, "Here's the first decision we have to make, this is the decision we have to make," and that we can't be focused on which way the decision is. So a decision like a yes or a no is a decision.
(22:43):
If I'm worried about getting a yes, that's going to mess up the decision making process because I'm going to be pushing for one side or the other, but it's just lay it out there. It's like, what do
Tiffany Sauder (22:53):
You want to do? Well, that's a skill to break down the decision because it's like really, I'm thinking about the sales aspect of it. It's like, do you want to buy from me is like the predominant thing that's radiating from your eyeballs. But it is first saying like, does the key stakeholder agree that there's a pain inside of the organization that we can help with? That's number one. The second is, will the key stakeholder advocate for this internally in the culture? That's decision number two. Decision number three is, will the people who have to make a decision around this make the time for the conversation to understand? But it's a skill to learn how to break that down because I think when you're just getting into this, it does feel very binary like, are we going to work together or are we not? There's a bunch of little sub decisions.
(23:40):
So how can we get better at that?
Brian Kavicky (23:44):
I think you start with the big decisions. So if you say this is the decision that is the end, work your way backwards. So start with the end in mind, work your way backwards and say, these are the decisions that have to be made before that. You're not going to have all of them. Your little one in there is, will they take the time to have the conversation? You might not do that the first time you back into the decisions, but you'll get close to what the big decisions are and then once you have them, you just lay them out to somebody and say, "I think this is the first decision that we need to make. Do you agree?" And they're like, "Yeah, let's make that decision first, have the conversation and decide, and then here's the next decision we need to make." As long as you're facilitating one at a time, it doesn't have to be perfect.
(24:28):
You just have to get the big nugget
Tiffany Sauder (24:31):
Ones
Brian Kavicky (24:31):
Correct.
Tiffany Sauder (24:32):
So that is in the conversation. The skill is how do you decide you facilitate decision making and then also lay out the steps? How do you get maybe a personality or a culture that is like, "If we'll get back to you, we don't make decisions in the room. Thank you for your presentation." And it feels like they're kind of like, if you're not watching this online, I'm like kind of like, "Okay, thank you, honey."
Brian Kavicky (25:01):
Right. We call
Tiffany Sauder (25:03):
It
Brian Kavicky (25:03):
Positive lie.
Tiffany Sauder (25:04):
Kind of like shushing you out of the room a little bit in a way that feels kind.
Brian Kavicky (25:09):
Good.
Tiffany Sauder (25:10):
You'll
Brian Kavicky (25:10):
Leave feeling good, especially if they say things like, "This was great. We love this conversation." You're going to have that feel good about
Tiffany Sauder (25:18):
This. Adrenaline rush.
Brian Kavicky (25:19):
So it turns out that all of those responses are responses to pressure. It's when you pressure somebody into a decision. So the analogy I use for this is the first date. If you went on a first date with somebody and they said, "Hey, let's just decide if we go on another date again," that's easier than it's not saying that in the beginning and saying at the end, "So do you want to go on another date?" And that's where the person's like, "Whoa, that's a lot." But if I knew this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm figuring out, it's easy. If I change that and say, "On this first date, this is the date that we decide if we're getting married or not, " a person who's unwilling to make that decision will actually say, "I can't do that, or I'm unwilling to do that.
(26:02):
" And then we just have to change it to what decision you're being made. So if I'm trying to avoid that late resistance of, I want to think about it, I want to do those things, the first step is to make sure that they know what they're deciding at the beginning of the conversation and that they've agreed that that decision will be made in the conversation, they won't do those things. And you do that by really making no safe, telling someone it's more important that a decision is made than you make it to say yes. It's okay to say no. Safety is what lowers the risk of those things.
Tiffany Sauder (26:37):
How do you know when to pre-game that with a prospect or a client to say, "Hey, I just want you to know going into this next conversation, this is the decision I think we need to make coming out of it. " Is it just happen in the first two minutes of the meeting and vocabulary that we're used to upfront contract and maybe we tell a little bit about what that is or is it done in a pre-game call where it's like, "Hey, this is a couple days before." How
Brian Kavicky (27:02):
Do you know? It's either or both. It doesn't matter. It has to be done in the conversation even if you can't infer that they remembered a conversation last week. It needs to be done in the beginning of the conversation. You can preempt it and say, "Am I thinking that this is the right thing that we do in the meeting? Is this what we should be working on and figuring out? " They agree to that, then it's a lot easier to have them do it in the meeting. The key is can I do that upfront? Can I let them know, is everybody clear? Have they agreed to that? If they've agreed, they're not going to push it back. And there are cases where somebody says, "I thought I could decide this, but now I realize I can. I have to do this. I have to do this.
(27:41):
" Just set a time and a date to talk about that of when that's going to be made or what they're going to do or when our next company set a next step for that so that they're not just in la la land figuring it out. It's like, "Well, when will you have that conversation? When will you talk to that person? Let's talk after that and let's put time on the calendar to DiSCuss that. "
Tiffany Sauder (28:01):
Does it make sense for us to talk about an upfront contract in this conversation? Because I think that's a really helpful tool
Brian Kavicky (28:09):
Contract.
(28:09):
The upfront contract is a Sandler concept and Sandler is a sales training methodology that is basically what we've outlined. And the definition of an upfront contract is agreement about the time a conversation is going to take place agreement about the agenda of the conversation and agreement around the outcome of the conversation, which is the decision. It is easiest to do and execute by thinking what decision should be made and then backing into the agenda and the time. So it's easier for me to say, "Hey, Tiffany, what decision are we making today? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So here's what we should talk about and it's going to probably take this much of our conversation. Are you okay with that? " Then to go, "Hey, do you have an hour for this conversation? What are we going to talk about? Blah, blah, blah. And here's the decision we're going to be made." People need to know, here's what I'm going to deciding, where's it going?
(29:04):
They need to know the end. So that is the terminology or that if somebody wants to look that up and I mean, you could technically ChatGPT and say, "Teach me about upfront contracts and using those and get yourself about 50% there." But that is a way that they can learn about that.
Tiffany Sauder (29:21):
I find too, those upfront contracts hold me accountable for the thing I intend to do because I'm also easily distracted and curious. So if I'm not clear about where I need to get this conversation to be at the end, I can take detours that feel interesting, but they are not really in service to what we need to solve today. And sometimes you need to use some judgment along the way, but that upfront contract also just respectful of everybody's time, help me understand how that fits to where we're going. Is that something we need to talk about offline, whatever. Well,
Brian Kavicky (29:56):
There was another thing that solved for you is that you're an intuitive person, so So you would spot opportunity and go, "Oh, this can be so much more. I could have them decide this right now." And it actually slowed you down to the things that they needed to think through and decide first, even though you saw, "Oh, I could do it so much more here." Because
Tiffany Sauder (30:15):
That would've complicated
Brian Kavicky (30:16):
The situation.
Tiffany Sauder (30:18):
I think as a high I on DiSC, some buyers just really want to feel pursued and important and this moment of Brian, it would be my life's desire to do work for you and your brand is amazing. And I'm thinking about my marketing world. Some are like, "Okay, yeah, the shower of praise is meaningful." So if I think about how does that fit in this world of a conversation is about getting a decision made inside of this world of bonding rapport. And maybe you're looking at me like nobody really cares about that, Tiffany. But I think there's energy to that that sometimes is maybe relevant, maybe not.
Brian Kavicky (30:58):
Well-
Tiffany Sauder (30:58):
It's not your personality.
Brian Kavicky (31:00):
Well, that's the point. You just said that as if it was true for everybody because it's true for you. You would love
Tiffany Sauder (31:07):
That. Oh, my word. Come on. You would love
Brian Kavicky (31:10):
That.
Tiffany Sauder (31:10):
That feels so gross to hear out loud. But
Brian Kavicky (31:12):
You would love that if somebody's like, "Tiffany, you're amazing."
Tiffany Sauder (31:16):
You
Brian Kavicky (31:16):
Are great. You are all these things where somebody else would be like, "Stop showering me with praise.This
Tiffany Sauder (31:20):
Is so cute." You would be so suspicious.
Brian Kavicky (31:22):
Yeah. So that is the trap that you come into is you think, because I think this way, everybody thinks this way.
Tiffany Sauder (31:30):
Well, some other people do too. Yes.
Brian Kavicky (31:31):
A lot of people think that way, but it's not everyone. So the question is not, what do I do to do that in a world of today? It's how do I know the difference of somebody that needs that and somebody that doesn't to do it when appropriate and don't do it when
Tiffany Sauder (31:45):
It's not. Okay. So that's the question I meant to ask. Yes. What is that answer?
Brian Kavicky (31:49):
It's to understand their personality. So you said correctly, my high I means social acceptance
(31:56):
Is important to me. Social acceptance comes from praise and me telling you you're socially accepted. A different personality would be somebody that says, I want to know that I'm important and that you respect me and all those things. And so saying to somebody else is like, "Hey, I greatly respect your thoughts.What do you want to do? " That would work with a high D personality. A high C needs detail. A high S needs to know that it's not going to affect them negatively and that the change won't hurt. So it's where am I taking the conversation based on what that other person needs?
Tiffany Sauder (32:27):
Wild. Okay. So if someone is sitting in a sales process right now with a prospect or in a big project that they're trying to get some movement on, what is something they can do today this week from this conversation to practically move it forward?
Brian Kavicky (32:48):
It's to ask the prospect or the person that is appearing to be stuck what decision they're stuck on and to get that named and defined so that you can help frame how to work through that decision. Even somebody that's ghosting you right now, it's, "Hey, I know we haven't talked. My gut is you're stuck on a decision. What decision is that? " Because if I haven't been able to facilitate those decisions, they're still making decisions. I just want to know where they're at to go, "Okay, maybe it would be helpful if we had another conversation to help you with this or do this. " It's get that decision named to get it restarted and then think, what is the next decision that comes after that and then the next? Sort of do that exercise you described a while ago.
Tiffany Sauder (33:33):
Is it possible for us to create urgency in the way that we're facilitating a sales process or is urgency predetermined, I'm using air quotes based on the buyer's environment?
Brian Kavicky (33:47):
It's based on the buyer's perception of how big of a problem that is. So if I said, "Do you want to take a $75,000 ambulance ride today?" You're like, "No, pass." But if you got hit by a car and you're laying in the street and your arm fell off, you wouldn't ask how much it cost. So urgency is based on what is the impact of that problem on me and is that important enough to act so you cannot manufacture it. You can, but you're effectively manipulating someone into that and that's going to drive you away from them as
Tiffany Sauder (34:19):
Well.
Brian Kavicky (34:20):
They're like, "What if you lost your business tomorrow?" That would be like-
Tiffany Sauder (34:24):
Dramatic. Yeah,
Brian Kavicky (34:25):
Shut up.
Tiffany Sauder (34:25):
Bad. All right, we need to go find a decision that we can facilitate or if we have something stuck, ask them what decision are we stuck on? And stop making it about our own acceptance or rejection.
Brian Kavicky (34:36):
And that will help with bonding and rapport because now you're making it about where they're stuck, not, how do I advance this?
Tiffany Sauder (34:42):
Yeah. Love it. Love it. Ladies, here's what I want us to take away from today. Being good with people, having charisma, being able to sort of be likable, that's great, but it's not enough on its own. The women I know who have the most control over their outcomes and their careers and their businesses and their earning, they have learned to pair their relational instincts with real process, not a script, not manipulation as we were just talking about with Brian, but a process. If that word makes you a little uncomfy, I get it. I'm not naturally a process person either, but what I know is that following this process makes things genuine and real and when that's true of us, it's lasting. So here's what I'm going to challenge us all to do. Go find something on your calendar where you know getting them to make a decision is going to create some velocity and make some impact.
(35:36):
All right. If you got something from this episode, I would love it if you would share it with a friend. It is the fastest way that we grow the show. And if what you've learned from Brian today was helpful, I would encourage you click on the link and show notes, reach out to him and schedule one hour. He's helped me solve so many business problems and I know he can help you with yours too. Thanks for joining us today.