Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
It’s national pizza day and Pastor Matt Brown and Justin Pardee are talking about Luke 6, which may be considered one of the most difficult chapters of the new testament for Christians to handle. In this episode of the debrief Pastor Matt Brown and Justin Pardee discuss what Jesus has to say in this chapter about right and wrong really is.
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
The debrief.
Matt Brown:Yes. This is be the most entertaining hour of your week.
Justin Pardee:Hopefully, we won't go for a full hour. I think that might be.
Matt Brown:Oh, let's go for six hours.
Justin Pardee:We could do it.
Matt Brown:I could do it.
Justin Pardee:Well, it's National Pizza Day. We're gonna need to call some How
Matt Brown:do you even know that? Social media. And your core sin
Justin Pardee:is. The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit.
Matt Brown:Your core sin is.
Justin Pardee:It's not gluttony. Gluttony is secondary. I got a few other bigger ones Mhmm. Higher up on the list.
Matt Brown:Okay. Well, you do talk about food a lot.
Justin Pardee:Well, hey, everybody and welcome to the Debrief Podcast. I am your host, Justin Pardee, and we're gonna get to some q and a with pastor Matt in a second. But I am hanging out today with our young adult ministry leadership crew here at Sandals Church. We got Stephanie Keen on deck. Hey, guys.
Justin Pardee:How's it going? Alright. Feel free to answer back to her in your car, and we'll just trust that the holy spirit gets that information right back in her ears. Griffin Harrell.
Griffin Harrel:Hey. What's up, everybody?
Justin Pardee:Griffin leads our pipeline team up at Sandals Church Woodcrest, and we got Fredo Ramos, backup backup pitcher for the Dodgers. Who's like the Dodgers feeder team? Do they have one of those? Like, the version of the sixty sixers? They help the angels.
Justin Pardee:The sixties?
Stephanee Schaefer:No. I don't know.
Alfredo Ramos:I'm I don't know what they're called.
Justin Pardee:Well, you're full time high school teacher. Mhmm. And then you also are bringing leadership to our young adult crew. And you guys actually have a gathering coming up this weekend for young adults, Saturday night at Main Campus
Griffin Harrel:at That's what? 8PM.
Justin Pardee:8PM. Fredo, you're teaching?
Alfredo Ramos:I am.
Justin Pardee:Awesome. It's Valentine's weekend. So hopefully, you just keep speaking in that voice because it's it's it's awesome. Well, hey, Really quick basic reactions to Super Bowl commercials. Was it puppy puppy doggy puppy doggy baby?
Justin Pardee:Kitty monkey? A kitty monkey.
Stephanee Schaefer:Puppy monkey I still don't understand.
Alfredo Ramos:I am not sure what that is. But I love the Doritos one.
Justin Pardee:Okay. Awesome. One is good. Which one do you like? Doritos?
Griffin Harrel:Yeah. The baby jumping out?
Justin Pardee:That was
Griffin Harrel:That was
Justin Pardee:very special. Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. Good stuff.
Justin Pardee:Man, what a seriously good weekend it was. Well, hey. So pastor Matt was really talking to us this last weekend about all of these really challenging teachings from Jesus in Luke chapter six, and it definitely was kind of like going through the gauntlet because Jesus just throws down on what it looks like to follow him and to be a real Christian. And I kinda wanna just connect with you guys a little bit as we kinda try and work out some of the truths that pastor Matt gave us. Ultimately, what he really did was challenge us that we're supposed to be coming like Jesus and and that means a lot of different changes that we make in our life based on the way we relate to other people, those kinds of things.
Justin Pardee:Let me just ask you this, like, really tough question. Let me just throw that out there as we respond. Where do you guys and anyone of you jump in here, find yourself getting more caught up with, like, maybe being or doing something in particular rather than just becoming more like Jesus. Right? Because it's so easy to try and look a certain way or do the right things versus actually following the teachers of Christ.
Justin Pardee:Griffin, where do you find yourself getting caught up there?
Griffin Harrel:And the first thing I think of is like when I used to be in school and I would just try to get stuff done, turn it in, just try to get the good grade and seeing and feeling that transfer over kind of to my work life, you know, working here as a minister and, sometimes it's hard, you just wanna make your boss happy or you just wanna make parents happy or something like that. So I definitely feel like that tension of wanting to do stuff, but you know, sometimes not having the right motivation or not not having Jesus in mind or not having myself kinda oriented towards towards what Jesus wants for me. So
Stephanee Schaefer:If I'm honest, like, all the time. Like, I when I read that question the first time, I'm just thinking, like, what am I, like, being or doing instead of just becoming like Jesus? And I think I just operate in a, like, how can I, like, be a good friend or be a good roommate or Mhmm? Be a good employee right now? What am I, like, what am I doing right now?
Stephanee Schaefer:How can I get things done? So I read I read that question, like, where am I doing things instead of just wanting to become like Jesus? And I'm like, well, shoot, all the freaking time. I I think because I'm very task driven, I like to get stuff done. And I work for the church, and so I think that's a unique thing too.
Stephanee Schaefer:That, like, a lot of things that I'm doing, like, I wanna draw people into Jesus. Like, I want that's, you know, the end goal. But a lot of my day is focused on, like, okay, how can I, like, be good at this? How can I do this well? And I get to the end of a lot of days not really thinking, like, oh, did I become more like Jesus today?
Stephanee Schaefer:How was I doing that? I think, was I nice to that person that I offer grace? Did I act like Jesus? Mhmm. But I think that's different than focusing my days and my time on becoming like Jesus.
Justin Pardee:Right. Freda, where do you where do you find yourself getting caught up or distracted or whatever?
Alfredo Ramos:Yeah. I think I'm most distracted in those moments where I'm kind of doing all the right things, but for the very reasons that pastor Matt was talking about are kind of in that second explanation that Jesus gives to us in Luke six about having a lot of friends or being satisfied in full, having worldly success and comforts. And so, I think as a Christian, I think I'm doing right things, but ultimately those things at the end, satisfaction, people liking me are the reason for why I'm doing them. And so that's where it was most convicting for me hearing that and having to deal with reality. As a Christian, I should be in that other kingdom where I'm looking to be poor in spirit, I'm looking to sacrifice, I'm looking to give, I'm looking to care for those who are more disenfranchised around me.
Alfredo Ramos:And that requires the Holy Spirit, that requires me surrendering to Him on a daily basis because those don't come natural to me. And so if any moment where I feel like there's a lack of growth or I'm just being distracted, it's because my heart is really after those other things that Jesus talks about that are really what the kingdom of the world loves to elevate. And so I just have to reorient, you know, what kingdom am I aiming to be in?
Justin Pardee:Yeah, man. Think that's probably really difficult too. And all three of you guys fall solidly into that young adult demographic. Like you guys are definitely millennials. So, I mean, that means you guys are always eating Taco Bell driving around your couch.
Justin Pardee:Word is like a dirty word to us. Yes. Yes. Exactly.
Alfredo Ramos:Yeah. We're young adults.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Alright. Excuse me. Okay. So you guys are solidly there.
Justin Pardee:But right? It seems like that's the time of your life where you're ultimately trying to establish yourself, figure figure things out, take next steps, everything from, like, the classes that you're gonna be taking in college or trying to get that job or maybe, like, a promotion of some kind in work, man. It feels like in this stage of life for where you guys are at and where, know, you all the young adults that we have at our church, like, everything that you've gotta be doing and and trying to pursue is kind of in conflict with the things Jesus is calling us to. How do you guys see, like, balancing those things out or fighting against that that push, you know?
Griffin Harrel:So one of the great struggles that I see with young guys is having this sort of jacked up self image and thinking that who they are is based on what they do. And so just to kind of push against that, I have to make sure that my identity is secure in Jesus. You know, I gotta remember that whenever I'm going about and doing stuff, it's not because of what other people think about me. Like, what Justin Party thinks of me doesn't define who I am. So
Justin Pardee:I'm So how do you do that, Griffin? How do you make sure that your identity isn't Christ?
Griffin Harrel:So probably my favorite thing I've ever heard Fredo say, and it was maybe the first time that I heard him teach was he was talking about refreshing the gospel in your life every day. And so remembering Jesus and what he did for you and having to push and do things that will kind of reorient you at the start of each day and throughout each day. So practically that looks like building good habits, habituating yourself towards like, hey, I wanna actually read the Bible. I wanna care about what God is telling me in his word. I wanna pray for the people who I care about and I wanna have real conversations with my friends and with my wife.
Griffin Harrel:So.
Justin Pardee:Let me ask you guys this question. Kind of in light of these two, like, love how you phrase, like, the two kingdoms and the the the draw to be or feel successful even for really good reasons versus this desire Mhmm. To become more like Christ ultimately for the good of others. In the conflict between there, how do you guys evaluate success in your own lives? Because one of the things pastor Matt was calling us to do was really change the way we see ourselves in light of these teachings of Christ.
Justin Pardee:How do you actually evaluate yourself?
Stephanee Schaefer:Oh, man. I think when I when I think about that, I honestly evaluate I guess I guess it's success. When I'm thinking about whether when I'm trying to refocus my wants for God's kingdom instead of my kingdom, I even think of, like, pressing into those times where I could actually believe when Jesus says, like, blessed are those who hunger. Mhmm. When I am left without what I think I want, and I'm able to say, like, I really want that, but I really want Jesus more.
Stephanee Schaefer:And I think when I actually make that decision and choose to say no to myself, like, that tends to end up being more successful even though sometimes it's painful. Mhmm. I don't know if that's quite but when I think about it, I'm like, oh, being successful and really choosing God's kingdom means choosing sometimes the hard stuff that is ultimately gonna push me more to Jesus, and sometimes it means saying no to the things that would feel really good right now.
Justin Pardee:Got it. Do you guys have thoughts on how you evaluate success?
Alfredo Ramos:I definitely think, know, I could just be real with myself and ask like, am I excited about the things that Jesus is excited about? Like what Stephanie said, am I glad to be hungry or more hungry for Him than for other things? Am I exemplifying, you know, repentance being poor in spirit? Like, is that a daily thing that I see, you know, in my past week or month or whatever it might be? So, and I feel like that happens, that happens like through different tests.
Alfredo Ramos:Like I can sit here and say, yeah, I feel like I repented, but I'm not really gonna know unless I've been able to evaluate moments when that's been tested. You know, like if someone's called me out on a sin or if I've been really convicted, what was the outcome? You know, did I confess and repent and find forgiveness in him or did I kind of just ignore it and put it to the side? Because I feel like it's similar for an athlete. Like they don't know they're getting faster unless they are kind of tested.
Alfredo Ramos:And so I feel like I can evaluate growth or success based on how I'm acting in those particular moments, you know, what the outcomes might have looked like.
Justin Pardee:Dude, I love what you just said there. Griffin got my oldest son, Titus, he's in first grade into jujitsu and he's been at it for like almost like six or nine months and we take him there every single week. And it's really hard to tell, like, if he's actually getting better at jujitsu Mhmm. Because he's aging or he's wrestling with kids that are his same age every single week, and they're all learning the same things. But then couple months ago, he was out and he was able to, like, take out his cousin who's many years older, more than twice his size and just really be able to evaluate himself in a different context and see, man, I'm actually kind of improving in this area.
Justin Pardee:And I think that's so right. I almost wonder if like, I'm just thinking about how many college students and young adults that we have in our own church. I love maybe this challenge of what's something you could do that really pushes your comfort level or your just really challenges you kinda mentally, emotionally, spiritually that could allow you to have the opportunity to to really test yourself.
Stephanee Schaefer:Yeah. Well, I even think it's like what the Bible says in James, like, welcoming trials and testing because the testing of your faith is what's gonna produce endurance. So in like, when trials are gonna come, like pastor Matt talks about that, that, like, we're gonna face storms. Hard things are gonna come. And I think those tests come when we allow those trials to come.
Stephanee Schaefer:We don't run away. We don't avoid. We don't turn to things that comfort us, but instead, like, look those trials in the face and allow that testing to produce endurance and actually let us see where our faith really stands. Yeah,
Griffin Harrel:I would say give an honest look at yourself. Look at who you are and look at the things that you do and ask yourself the questions of where am I obedient to Jesus and where am I not? And then pursuing becoming more like Jesus in relationship with other people. One of the biggest things that has changed me since I started coming to Sandals and since I became a Christian is trying to walk out and live out. Well, what I should say is actually meeting and talking with people who know me well, confessing to them, you know, letting them know where I screw up and where I mess up, and actually making a plan to be be more obedient to Jesus and to pursue him more.
Stephanee Schaefer:Yeah. Or even asking people to ask you the hard questions. Yeah. It's like, can you like, where am I, like, totally blind to something? Or like, how did I handle that situation?
Stephanee Schaefer:Those are like the hardest conversations in the world. Like, I never wanna ask somebody like, did I handle that okay? Like, what would you like, should I have done that differently? Because I never wanna hear them say like, oh yeah, you totally biffed that. Because that hurts and it's hard, but that's how you're gonna grow.
Stephanee Schaefer:You know, it's letting people be real with you.
Alfredo Ramos:Mhmm.
Griffin Harrel:And I always aim at trying to whatever the things are that I really wanna keep inside, those are the things that I need to confess the most. So I always look at what do I not wanna say and who do I not wanna say it to? And my boss is my pastor also. And that puts me in like the strangest situation sometimes. But it means that sometimes I have to confess things that I'm really ashamed of to my boss and my leader, but that's just what Jesus wants for my life.
Matt Brown:Yeah,
Alfredo Ramos:I definitely think that you can't find an individual in the Bible who's grown apart from, you know, community. And so for you to ask yourself, am I sacrificing more? Am I repenting more? Am I boasting in my weakness? You know, so that I can inherit the earth at the end.
Alfredo Ramos:You have to have people in your life who can kind of help you answer those things too. Because to a degree, we can be honest with ourselves, but to another degree, we can also lie to ourselves. We're we're always at the end of the day, our best defense attorney. And so we we need those other people in there.
Justin Pardee:Well, thanks guys. I'm super glad to have you guys hanging out with us here on the debrief. Really appreciate that. And for real, if you guys are college students, young adults, that's like 18 to 30 ish. Is that how you guys do that?
Justin Pardee:Yep. Yep. Awesome. This Saturday night, we'd love to have you hanging out with us at the main campus. How do they find you guys?
Stephanee Schaefer:We are gonna be in the lobby of the main campus. So come to service Saturday night, stick around afterward, you won't be able to miss us. It's gonna be really fun.
Alfredo Ramos:Awesome. We'll get you some free coffee too.
Justin Pardee:Oh, there you go, dude.
Griffin Harrel:You'll get to see Fredo in person.
Stephanee Schaefer:You might get to see all of us in person.
Justin Pardee:Amazing. Alright, guys. Let's jump into some q and a with pastor Matt. Well, hey, guys. We are hanging out here with pastor Matt and we're gonna process through some Luke chapter six stuff.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. You ready to just jump into this or
Matt Brown:Yeah. The most, I think, if you're honest, if you're real with yourself, the most difficult chapter we've faced yet in Luke and maybe the most difficult chapter in the entire gospel of Luke.
Justin Pardee:Super quick. You told us this weekend that you were in boot camp, did the army thing. That probably surprised quite a few people.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Yeah. No. I was I was in I was in the army. I was a cop, the worst military policeman in the history of the United States Armed Forces.
Matt Brown:Don't like guns, don't like writing tickets, Don't like busting people for stupid stuff. So, you know, I hated it. That's awesome. I love
Justin Pardee:the idea of how old were you?
Matt Brown:19 to 21. Dude, that sounds just awesome. I had my 20 birthday in the military, worst ever. I think I got to do 210 push ups to celebrate.
Justin Pardee:Alright. Well, let's let's jump right in. With last weekend, we were talking about or last episode, we talked about Luke four, some questions about resisting temptation. And after we stopped recording, you had mentioned that you wanted to talk a little bit more about Galatians five because there's some great stuff in there. Do you wanna jump right in there and talk to us about what Yeah.
Justin Pardee:It looks
Matt Brown:Galatians five, which is an odd thing to talk about as we're studying the gospel of Luke. But Galatians five is probably one of my favorite chapters in the entire Bible. I just love it. I think it paints a beautiful picture of what sin is and what goodness is. And so a lot of times we talk about what not to do but we don't talk about what we should be doing.
Matt Brown:And so Paul, a beautiful just author, writer, communicator of what it means to be a Christian in life and practice just writes in the chapter to me, the most power packed chapter on Christian behavior. What sin looks like because a lot of our people at Sandals, they didn't grow up in church. They don't know the Bible. And so they don't know what right and wrong is. They might have a general sense, but they don't have a specific sense.
Matt Brown:And so Paul outlined some things there that we would be automatically drawn to. And so he identifies things that we're going to be tempted to pursue and to partake in as people. And then he talks about how the Holy Spirit is going to be pressing against those things. And so we have this battle inside of us every day, all day until we die between what the Holy Spirit wants and what my own fleshly desires want. And I think the key there is for the Christian, your physical desires don't go away.
Matt Brown:We have to learn to manage them, not listen to them and learn to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and do that. So, I just think that Galatians five is a great chapter for people to work through who are struggling with temptation. I think there's a lot of wisdom there, just a lot of truth there. And I just think it's a great chapter. So, I don't if that answers your question, but I just love that chapter.
Justin Pardee:Got it. So, if you are listening and you wanna just kinda dig deeper on that then, I guess, the idea of resisting temptation, maybe just spend some time in Galatians chapter five, reading that over and over, jot down your own personal notes about what that looks like for you to to do that, to resist that temptation. Awesome. Well, let's jump right into Luke chapter six, man. This weekend, you were you referenced Luke six thirty seven.
Justin Pardee:Do not judge others and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others or it will all come back against you. Forgive others and you'll be forgiven. And you actually mentioned you wish you had more time in the message to talk about this idea of what does it look like to have judgment but not be a judgmental person? Can you dig into that?
Matt Brown:Yeah, absolutely. I think there's there's some moral confusion and a lack of biblical clarity on the issue of what Jesus is saying here. Because when you look at the verse just on its own, it seems like Jesus is saying, never judge a person's behavior, never judge a person's character, never judge a person's something they've shared their thought life or whatever. And so the point of what Jesus is saying here is what we need to be concerned about is what's in our heart. Am I a judgmental person?
Matt Brown:Am I overly critical? Am I overly concerned with the rights and wrongs of everybody else's life? And I think for so long as Christians, we failed to listen to the teaching of Jesus. He's not called us to be moral police of others. Specifically what He wants you to do is to be a moral policeman of your own life.
Matt Brown:And what we need to look at is, when I'm going to correct somebody, speak into somebody's life, have to look at my heart. So, so much of what Jesus is talking about in this chapter is where is your heart? What's coming out? What are the reasons for this? And so, I think, as a Christian, we need to have judgment.
Matt Brown:So what does that mean? If a person has judgment, a person needs to be able to know what's right and what's wrong. Really the issue is wisdom. Do I have moral clarity? Do I know what's right and wrong?
Matt Brown:Am I grounded in what truth is? And so a lot of Christians I hear them say, Well, who am I to judge? Well, that's a statement of judgment. What you're saying is your judgment is you are incapable of judgment. And so maybe you're being overly critical of yourself.
Matt Brown:And oftentimes really what it is is Christians just don't want to be persecuted for making a moral stand. And so we have to be careful about that. So let's go back. So we need to not be a critical negative person and I think we're all that person. I'm that person.
Matt Brown:We were watching Super Bowl on Sunday, Coldplay. I was dying, wanted to tweet just a thousand critical things. But like I posted my sermon was convicting me and so I didn't do that. But I did post that I wanted to post critical things because I am still a
Justin Pardee:You're moving in the right direction.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So, the first thing is just to have judgment and that's why go to Galatians five because it's going to tell you what's right and wrong. And so, we need to allow God to judge. God has judged what's right and what's wrong. And so, we don't need to make non Christians or non believers agree with that.
Matt Brown:And so that's where we get into trouble as Christians as we enter into the political discourse of our American democracy. We want everyone and that's really where America's just whack is everybody's trying to make everybody live according to their moral code. The left's doing it, the right's doing it, everybody does it. And I think America would be a much better place if we respected the freedoms of each other, including the freedom to believe things morally and spiritually. And so the left gets that wrong as often as the right wants to.
Matt Brown:Well, I don't know the right wants to that anymore, but they used to wanna be everybody's moral cop. So have judgment, know what's right and wrong. If you're a friend, you need to be willing to speak truth into your friend's life. You're not a friend if you don't tell someone, Hey, this is dangerous. You know?
Justin Pardee:So, does that part look like? Switching from I have a conviction through God's word and these types of even talking with other people of what's right and wrong. And let's use that example of it's a close friend or someone that I know that is not living with wisdom in their own life. How do I approach them without being judgmental?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So, ultimately, is the judge. God is going to judge not only our behaviors, but the conditions of our heart. Jesus says that every secret will be revealed. And so we have to trust that truth will come out.
Matt Brown:Truth is a mockery in our current judicial system. It doesn't happen but eventually truth will come out. So we have to trust God with that. So what we need to do is not sit in the position of judge but we have to sit in the position of truth teller. And so I'm not your judge.
Matt Brown:You're not going to stand before me. You Justin are not gonna stand before me on judgment day. You're gonna stand before Christ. He is the judge. I'm not the judge.
Matt Brown:And so it's just understanding my role but what I need to do is speak truth into your life because one day you will stand before the judge. And so here's the question that I would ask if I think you're in sin or you're doing something wrong. First question I'm gonna ask is, do I have a position in your life to speak truth into your life? If I don't, then why bother? And so there's a lot of Christians that just live in a constant state of anxiety because they feel like they have to tell everyone everything.
Matt Brown:And so it does me no good to speak truth into your life if you've not given me permission to share truth in your life. And so that's why Jesus says, don't cast pearls before swine. Don't be We don't have to tell everybody everything. And so do I have a relationship with you? Do you care what I think?
Matt Brown:Have you invited me to give my perspective? And so if you've done those things, if you've invited me into your life, then I'm gonna tell you, Hey, Justin. And what I would encourage people to do is the Bible says to go back to what the word of God says, not I think, I feel whatever. Is there some specific truth that I feel is being violated here? And so then I would just lean heavily on God's word, which means if you're not a believer, right?
Matt Brown:Why am I quoting some 2,000 year old book to you? And so Christians get that wrong a lot of the time. So the Bible is our instruction for life. It's our authority. It's not the world's authority.
Matt Brown:They reject it. When you look at the Old Testament, I love God's anger because it's never at the nations for their sin. God is always angry at His people for their sin. So He's not frustrated with the peoples that He has not called by His name. He's not frustrated by the nations that don't know him.
Matt Brown:He's frustrated with his people who don't live according to their law. And that's why I've never been a soapbox preacher standing up screaming at people that you're a sinner because I don't think it's effective. We're not operating from the same platform. So the first question is, do I have a position in their life? So if they're a believer, I would use Scripture.
Matt Brown:If they're not a believer, I would use wisdom. You don't need to quote Scripture. The Bible is truth. God is wise and so I would come at it from wisdom. Hey, I don't think this is really wise for you.
Matt Brown:But again, what is the condition of my heart? There have been times in my life where I cared more about zapping the person than helping the person. And so if I'm just here to just bust you, you blew it then right? The condition of my heart's been revealed and I need to go back and deal with the condition of my heart before I come to you because that's important. Just Self righteousness is a disease.
Matt Brown:It's an absolute disease. And so Jesus is trying to cure his disciples of that disease. Don't be like these guys. Don't be like the Pharisees. They're blind guides.
Matt Brown:So he talks about that in this chapter. How can a blind person lead another blind person? And so we can't do that if we can't see correctly. So I always have to be aware of where my vision is. I gotta take the plank out of my eye so that So here's where Christians fail.
Matt Brown:Well, I gotta deal with the plank in my eye. Yeah, so that you can help your friend with the speck in theirs. Because I've had a speck in my eye, it hurts, it's awful. And I've had to ask my wife to help me get something out. And so I need her to see clearly.
Matt Brown:And so to say, well, I'm never gonna help people with specks in their eyes isn't love. And that's not the role of the believer. So I hope that helps. It is a very, very thing. And so I think if your personality, if you tend to be more like a jerk, this is gonna be very, very hard for you and you need to be real with yourself.
Matt Brown:What is my personality? Am I abrasive? And then there's people that are more like me and I tend to be a coward and not speak into this. And so I need to be aware. And so for somebody like me, I need to be bold.
Matt Brown:For people who are a little rough relationally, they need to be soft and gentle. And so, you've got to incorporate who you are with how you communicate God's truth. So, there's no one hard and fast rule for everybody.
Justin Pardee:Right. What you think the best way to figure that out is? Like, if you're the rough person, I mean, I guess partially just by evaluating how do your past conversations go or talking to the close people in your life?
Matt Brown:Yeah. I think if you're a rough person, if you're an abrasive personality, I would really just encourage you not to confront people because that's just not gonna go well. And so, the Bible says, Speak the truth in love in Ephesians. And if you can't do that, then don't do that.
Justin Pardee:It. Okay. So, you started to mention further on just a couple verses later in Luke chapter six verses 41 through 42 is the this passage about specs and the logs in your own eye. You obviously didn't even get to preach on any of
Matt Brown:that. Right.
Justin Pardee:What's the overall picture that's going on there is this idea of because this, I think, is a truth that is pretty important to us at Sandals in terms of being real with ourselves and others. How do we figure that how do we figure out how to do both of those things in light of this teaching from Jesus?
Matt Brown:You mean, how do I help people with the speck? Is that what you're asking?
Justin Pardee:Or maybe how do I deal with the speck in my own eye first? Because I think a lot of us maybe would say, well, this is an additional excuse to not judge people or to move forward.
Matt Brown:Well, that's what I'd say if you're more of a coward, you're always going to find evidence in your life that would lead you to believe that you could never help anybody. And so, we need to look at ourselves as spiritual doctors. Does a surgeon need to be clinically perfect to operate? Well, there's a No, if there's a tumor, they need to do the best job to save somebody's life. And so we need to remember that if you truly love somebody.
Matt Brown:And so that's what people need to be really honest. A lot of times the truth is we just love ourselves. And so we're afraid of losing that person. And so you just need to ask yourself, do I care more about that person or do I care about myself? And if I care about myself, oftentimes I'm afraid.
Matt Brown:I'm afraid to speak truth into my life. So, or into somebody else's life. So, sorry about it. That's me.
Justin Pardee:That's how it goes. I love the kind of distinctions that you're making a little bit between even approaching believers and non believers differently. What what do you think the overall goal should be when I'm approaching someone who is maybe not making wise choices or actively sinning according to God's standards, but they're not a follower of Christ?
Matt Brown:Right.
Justin Pardee:Like, let's say it's a brother or a sister, a family member, maybe a son or a daughter. How do I set my goal for approaching them relationally?
Matt Brown:Yeah, I would make it in my language absolutely not at all about Jesus. I mean, if let's say you're a parent and they were a Christian at one time, certainly you can invoke the name of Jesus. But man, a lot of times I hear people all the time invoking name of Jesus and invoking religious language, cultural Christianity to pagan people. And I'm like, what are you doing? We sound weird.
Matt Brown:Use biblical language with people who have biblical understanding. Use contemporary language with people who are in a contemporary culture. And so, I think the Bible is very, very clear that we need to be careful, cautious and wise in how we speak to those who are not believers. And it's not that we're being false, it's that we're trying to speak in such a way that we can reach them. And so like if you were Muslim and you were concerned about me and you start quoting the Quran, what is that gonna do for me?
Matt Brown:I mean, it's not gonna work for me. I'm not an expert in the Quran. Wasn't raised a Muslim. I don't know what those things mean. But if you're just a fellow American, you're like, hey man, I'm concerned about your marriage.
Matt Brown:I'm concerned about how you're parenting your kids or I'm concerned about your finances. I love you bro, what's going on here? I think that communicates love and genuine concern. And then at a later date, you can have an opportunity if invited to share Christ. And obviously, the first goal is to love everybody.
Matt Brown:The second goal is to in love, if you have an opportunity to share Christ, share Christ. And so I think love opens doors to share the truth. I think condemning language, well, the Bible says, we've just been very, very foolish. And let me just say this, so much of the religious judgmentalism that comes from Christianity, it's just really negative critical people that probably don't know Christ who are wearing a Christian t shirt and they're not converted. They're not changed.
Matt Brown:Jesus says, right, you shall know them by their fruit. He says, a bad tree produces bad fruit, a good tree produces good fruit. And then he asked, why do you call me Lord if you don't do what I'm What he's saying is, you're not really a follower. I'm not really your Lord. You haven't made that decision.
Matt Brown:And so, being a Christian isn't about doing all these right things. It's about, I love Jesus. And so therefore I want to please Him and I wanna do these things and I want my heart to become like His. And I have these desires because I have this relationship with Him. And so my behavior changes not to impress Him, but because I love Him.
Matt Brown:And it's two different motives. And so like, again, a lot of people that run around calling themselves Christians aren't. And so, a loving person doesn't necessarily mean they're a Christian. You can't say, oh, well, that person's loving so they're Christian. But you can say this, if they're not loving, they're not a loving person, they're not a Christian.
Matt Brown:So it's not evidence for your faith, but it certainly is evidence against your faith. I think that's huge. Kindness is a real thing. It's the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, and self control. These are the fruits of the spirit and against them, there's no law.
Matt Brown:So, that's Galatians five.
Justin Pardee:Bringing it back. Okay, so let's talk about this. And I love how this is connected as we're talking about loving and showing love to people. One of your points this weekend was that to become more like Jesus, we need to change the way we respond to hurtful people.
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:And you actually read and challenged us with Luke chapter six verses 27 through 29. But to you, Jesus says, who are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, Pray for those who hurt you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer the other cheek also. How do we show love to someone who doesn't deserve it?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Well, the truth is you just have to admit that you can't. I mean, you just can't, you cannot humanly speaking stir these emotions. You can't find them. You can't dig deep.
Matt Brown:They're not in you. They're not in me. They're only in Christ. They're only in His heart. And so in those situations, right again, back to Galatians five, so much of the flesh is anger, malice, rage.
Matt Brown:He's gonna identify and all of those things are not always bad things. Like for example, if my family's attacked by a bear, I need some rage. I need some real rage because I need to be the angriest version of myself possible so that my family can be alive.
Justin Pardee:But
Matt Brown:so God's given us these emotions for specific situations. The problem is I respond like I'm being attacked by a bear when my wife just says, you didn't take out your laundry. That's the problem. And so specifically like the example I used in the sermon of the really buff guy that just got out of prison telling me that he was gonna beat me up. It was very, very frightening.
Matt Brown:And so I wasn't really tempted to puff up because he had killed me. I mean, literally he was curling my body weight. He had 80 pounds in each arm curling. I that's, I weigh one hundred and sixty pounds.
Justin Pardee:So
Matt Brown:he would have snapped me like a twig, but how do I respond to him? How do I respond to people when my wife is critical of me or my kids aren't obedient or somebody on the freeway cuts me off or worse, like on Twitter, someone's like, you're stupid, you're lame, you're whatever. What I need to do is just say, okay, God, I've got to respond like you. So I take a step back and just pray and say, God changed my heart. Because what I wanna do is just scream at this person.
Matt Brown:I'm not a big cusser, but I use Christian approved profanity, like shut up stupid, words like that. Geez, all that stuff. I just have to take a step back and say, God, I need you in this moment because my flesh is right there. Just like the story I shared with my son. I literally just screamed shut up.
Matt Brown:And it's like, who talks to your kid like that? Well, every parent that talked to me on Sunday at church was like, I do that too. Because we all have those moments where we just lose it And it's sad.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So, I'm responding to somebody that's hurtful. Step number one is really about admitting that I cannot show love on my own. Step two is kind of stepping back to get clarity. How do I move forward towards showing love to someone who has hurt me?
Justin Pardee:So, let's I mean, I I'm there's people in our church who are victims of
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:Abuse of all different kinds, broken marriages and relationships where they're still connecting with one another because of kids. Let's say I've got a just a complete total jerk of a boss. There's all kinds of option or different examples where people are in this repeated relationship. How do you move forward out of that place? So I'm in this place where I'm admitting I need God's help.
Justin Pardee:And I'm trying to get the clarity. What do I do from there?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So, loving your enemy doesn't mean you have to live with them. So, Jesus never commands that. So, to love What Jesus means by love is wishing well. And so, like, let's say you're a victim of sexual abuse, and clearly that person is an enemy in your life.
Matt Brown:They've violated you. You can still wish the person well and want them incarcerated. Absolutely. I think that's the right place for that person to be. It's the safe place for that person to be.
Matt Brown:And so, but as a Christian, the desires of my heart is for their heart to change. That they wouldn't do this, that they would be repentant. Not just for my own desires, but for their desires. Because one day they're gonna stand before God and be held accountable for the sins that they've committed. And God is going to deal viciously.
Matt Brown:The Bible says in wrath with people who have, Jesus says it's better to tie a weight around your neck and throw it into the Sea Of Galilee than it is for you to hurt a kid. That's Jesus, right? The loving kind sheep on the neck Jesus says, man, it's better that you drowned yourself than hurt a kid. And so, it's just like if we go to war, as a nation, I think sometimes we have to go to war and it's awful and it's ugly and it's evil. And just like with ISIS, let's use ISIS as an example.
Matt Brown:The desire of my heart is that those guys would change. That they would see the light, that they would see that they have bought into a version of religion that is ugly and awful and evil. And that they would see the light and come to faith in Christ. That's my prayer for them. But while I'm praying for that, I also have to be approving of stopping the violence because it's not okay for me to wish them well while they rape Yazidi women and they hang children for a violation of Sharia law.
Matt Brown:I mean, things are abhorrent and it's evil for me to do nothing. So I would say, you don't have to stay in a relationship if you're in an abusive relationship. And by the way, I wouldn't decide this from myself. I would get pastoral counsel because I think the world is now it's just constantly, especially in the area of marriage is like, oh, well, it's abusive and they're out. So what do you think abuse looks like?
Matt Brown:What does it mean? Get some counsel before you make that decision and bail in relationships. What does it mean if you have abusive parents? How do you interact with them? How do you respond to them?
Matt Brown:With parents, how do you honor them if they've been awful or ugly? How do you honor the title and the position that they hold while maybe not approving of the person that they are? And I think that those things can be done. And so again, to love your enemy is to wish them well. And so, it's to not let your heart become evil in response to what they've done.
Matt Brown:But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be consequences. I think people need to go to jail. I think people need to pay, you know, for the crimes that they commit. Absolutely. There's nothing wrong with that.
Justin Pardee:So, for those of you guys that are listening, just want you to know if you are attending any one of our campuses, you can reach out to us on the weekends. If you're trying to connect to that pastoral care, you can also just send us an email. You can reach out to us wherever you're at. Just send an email to help@sandalschurch.com, help@sandalschurch.com. We'll get back to you right away and, get you connected with our our care team so that we can help you in that situation.
Justin Pardee:Okay. Matt, let me close with one last question for you here. Again, this was a super challenging set of teachings for us to look at. And overall, the big idea that you were talking to us about was becoming more like Jesus is the responsibility of a Christian. And you you basically said to become more like Jesus, I must change the way I evaluate my life.
Justin Pardee:Now, Jesus says all this stuff. He says, blessed are you who are poor, who are hungry, you who weep. Blessed are blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil on account of the son of man. So, Jesus is obviously totally changing the way that we should be looking at ourselves and evaluating ourselves. How do you personally evaluate or even define what success looks like in your life?
Matt Brown:Absolutely. And like I said, on the weekends, so much of our misery, depression and discouragement is coming from this version of success that's unattainable. I'm never gonna be pretty enough, handsome enough, smart enough, tall enough, good enough, successful enough. I'm never gonna make all this money. And we literally as Americans spend the majority of our lives depressed when we're more successful than almost the complete rest of the world.
Matt Brown:And so when you look at depression in The United States and just discouragement, I mean, it's always been there but it really, really just vaulted in American culture with the advent of the home television. So right when you're poor, you didn't know that people had rich because you hung out with all poor people. And so there wasn't this awareness of the positions of others. TV says, this is how everybody lives and this is what everybody's life should be like and you should have this product. And all of a sudden, and that's really what drove the capitalist engine, right?
Matt Brown:Is, oh, I gotta have this, I gotta buy this, I gotta get this. And you see The United States going crazy over things like a hula hoop. I mean, who knew you had to have that, right? You had to have that. And then you had to have a skateboard and then you had to have a record player and then you had to have cassette tape and then it was CDs, DVDs, then it's an iPod, all of these things and it just keeps changing.
Matt Brown:And so people are constantly like, I've gotta have these things where I'm not happy. And not only that but now we see everybody's family, their best moments. Nobody posts that I know of, their Instagram moments screaming at their kid to shut up. But it's always the perfect family moments where had to yell at your kids 10 times to get everybody to smile. And that's what we post like that was the whole day.
Matt Brown:And so everybody looks at what everybody else is doing and they feel terrible. So for me, success for me is constantly coming back to the question of who is Christ called me to be? What has He called me to do? And the bottom line is God cares more about my character than He does anything else in my life. Who am I on the inside?
Matt Brown:What kind of father am I? What kind of husband am I? And so, because the truth is I was a terrible husband and a terrible father when I was concerned about being successful. Because that was the focus of my attention. Getting more influence, having more accolades and all of those things And I wasn't loving my wife well, and I wasn't loving my kids well.
Matt Brown:And I wasn't reading my Bible and I wasn't praying because the desires of my heart were for physical success. And so Jesus says, blessed are the poor. And why is He saying that? He's saying, Matt, you know, you asked me, he's saying, Matt, it's okay to not be wealthy because this is all yours in the end. That's what he's saying.
Matt Brown:He says, blessed are the poor for theirs is the kingdom of God. He's telling me, Matt, you have the kingdom. The kingdom is yours. The inheritance is yours. I am sharing all of my wealth, all of my riches with you.
Matt Brown:So why are you worried about money now? Okay, what's the next one? Blessed are the hungry. You think about your desires, your physical desires, the vacations you wanna take, the physical needs that you have, the clothes that you wear. Blessed are the hungry for they shall be satisfied.
Matt Brown:Jesus is saying, Matt, it's not about stuff, it's not about things, it's not about your physical desires, your sexual desires, any of those things. In the end you are going to be satisfied in me. Trust me, trust me. Success isn't in the new boat, the new car, the new wife, the new kid, the new whatever, all of these things that we think that we can't live without. It is ultimately in me.
Matt Brown:And so the Old Testament says that the right hand of I think it's Psalms sixteen:eight or sixteen:nine, At the right hand of God are pleasures forevermore. And so it's just this idea, a forward thinking that one day God is going to satisfy the desires of my heart. Maybe not now, maybe not here. And again, that leads into depression and discouragement. I don't know why God's not answering this prayer right now.
Matt Brown:Don't know why this isn't happening here. And it's like Jesus saying, look guys, wait, wait. And his whole life is this picture and pattern of waiting, right? So Philippians two says, He humbled himself, He emptied himself And because of that, he received forever the glory of God. Forever He's the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.
Matt Brown:And so it's this picture of that. And so if I can not be caught up in the here and now and all the things that I want, the apostle Paul says, all that stuff is scubaolin. We've talked about that at church. And I say it means crap. It's a Greek word scubaolin.
Matt Brown:He says, I consider all things scubaolin for the sake of Christ. And I think English translates it loss or dung, but it means poo, human poo. That's what I consider everything compared to what I have in Christ. And so he's okay to get rid of rank, title, wealth, all of that stuff means nothing because he listens to the Sermon on the Mount which is why. So Luke is a traveling companion of Paul.
Matt Brown:And so Luke is saying, we need to record this story in our gospel. He's aware of Matthew's gospel. We gotta say this again because people need to know that this is still true for the Christian life. And that means Paul was probably preaching on these ideas, these stories of Jesus. You need to not be so caught up in what am I gonna eat?
Matt Brown:What am I gonna do today? But you gotta trust in God's plan, which ultimately is fulfilled. Not in your twenties, not in your thirties, not in your forties, not in your fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, but it's ultimately fulfilled in eternity. This picture of satisfaction is in the end times. And so then the next one I think is about hatred, right?
Matt Brown:Blessed are you when people hate you and they say all things against you on account of my name. We are entering into a time when being a Christian is not popular, being a true Christian. There's a lot of churches that are caving on moral issues and specifics of scripture. But for those who remain faithful to the scripture, it's gonna be very, very unpopular. And Jesus is saying, you're gonna be blessed because of that.
Matt Brown:You're gonna be blessed. And so for me, is becoming more like Christ in my life. So what is it? What kind of father would Jesus be? What kind of husband would Jesus be?
Matt Brown:And so what kind of pastor would Jesus be? How would Jesus consider, got a raise, didn't get a raise? My wife, we have financial struggles just like everybody else. We have ups and downs and ins and outs. I have kid in college.
Matt Brown:So I understand bills and struggles, but knowing and believing and trusting that in the end, it all works out. And that's the peace of God. That's shalom. That's what we all have to trust in. And if we forget that, if we get overly focused on the here and now and all of our prayers that aren't being answered, our financial problems, we're going to be very miserable people.
Matt Brown:So
Justin Pardee:What's interesting to me is that future kind of focus that you're talking about almost feels like we can have these moments of failure, but even find some success in them. I'm thinking of the story you shared this weekend when you kinda confessed to the way you were talking to Ethan yelling at him really. And then you shared with us how he was the one that came back to you to bring restoration to that moment and the challenge that that brought to you. And, like, in many ways, that's almost like a story of failure, but at the same moment, you've got your son who is responding in a Christ like way. Mhmm.
Justin Pardee:Ultimately, as the result of you and Tammy's parenting and your fatherhood.
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:It feels like that future perspective can help us embrace some of these moments of a failure and seeing what it looks like to follow Christ in there.
Matt Brown:Yeah. And so, I just wanna, I think we're getting ready to wrap up, but I just, Jesus closes Luke six with the story of the wise man who built his house upon the rock. And I just would encourage people to meditate on that because the storms are coming. And the question is where is your house anchored? Where is your life anchored?
Matt Brown:And here's the reality is so many Christians I see is they want a solid foundation when the storm has already hit but they weren't in the process of building it. And so that's what I see people, they're just not prepared to deal with the storms. Like I was sharing with that I found out that I have this cyst on my spine, which is a scary thing. It's not fun to hear from a doctor, you have a disease, a spinal disease. Those words are heavy and scary, but for me, okay, right.
Matt Brown:People get these things, people deal with these things. These things happen. This is a part of life. And so, this is a little storm, nothing like cancer or leukemia or MS or anything else. It's a little storm.
Matt Brown:It's a small flood, but my house is stable and my trust is in Christ. And I just wanna let people know you don't build a house overnight. You just don't do it. And so it's so important that you are faithfully listening to Jesus and trusting Jesus so that when the storm comes, your house is already built. It's already ready.
Matt Brown:And what people find out is they built on the sand. They built on other things and the storm comes and their faith is wrecked and they walk away from Jesus. They get angry at God because something doesn't go their way. Maybe they lose a job. Maybe they experience something tragic like they lose a kid.
Matt Brown:These things don't happen as often as they did for most of human history. But when those things happen, people just, they turn on God and they turn on His faithfulness and His goodness because of their own personal experience because their life is built on feelings and emotions and not on Jesus. And so that's what I think He's trying to tell us in Luke six is there's a deeper way. There's a different way. And I would just say this is a lot of people are trying to figure this out on their own.
Matt Brown:I think you need to go back to Luke six sixteen, or excuse me, 12, I think it's 12 through 16, where he calls the 12. He didn't teach these guys one on one. And a lot of Christians are trying to figure this out on their own. This is group talk, this is group think. And that's why we are, we're constantly telling people, you've gotta get in a community group.
Matt Brown:You've gotta be a part of a group. You've gotta figure this stuff out together because God speaks through each of us. Not only does He speak through His word, but He's gonna speak through each of us as we are reading and learning His word together. And so it's just so important to not do this alone.
Alfredo Ramos:That
Matt Brown:you can build your house upon the rock. And so I just think, Luke six is amazing. One of the most famous verses, the golden rule, Luke six thirty one, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And give people the benefit of doubt, give people grace, be willing to forgive because we all need that in our lives. And I just think Jesus is awesome and He teaches us how to be awesome people and incredible people.
Justin Pardee:Right. Hey, so for those of you that are listening in this challenge to prepare for the storm, build your house upon the rock, if that's really resonating with you, if you go to our website at sandalschurch.com, we got a really fantastic sermon series from about a year and a half ago called the anchor theory with six weeks of really helpful teaching on how to prepare for the storm, how to weather the storm, and then how to even respond after storms like this land in our lives. I'd encourage you go to sandalspurge.com, head over to the sermon section, and look for those teachings on the anchor theory. Well, man, this has been really great. I'm super excited about what God's gonna do this weekend and what he has for us as we get into Luke chapter seven.
Justin Pardee:Any quick thoughts or prayer requests for those of us as
Matt Brown:we Yeah. Just get we just to pour you know, grace is not just something that we need to give to others. We have to give it to ourselves. We need to be recipients of grace. And so, as you as you read Luke six, you're gonna feel like a total failure.
Matt Brown:And I think that's a good thing because it's gonna make you realize you can't be a Christian without Jesus. We don't just need Him to save us. We need Him to sustain us every single day. These things are impossibilities on our own. Human beings can be momentarily kind, but we can't be truly kind.
Matt Brown:We can't be truly loving in and of ourselves. We need God's love to touch our hearts and change us. And so just be encouraged and know that any honest person when they read Luke six is convicted and they don't live it out all the time.
Justin Pardee:Right. Hey, quick question. Who should we be inviting this weekend to come as you're gonna be preaching through Luke seven?
Matt Brown:Yeah, I would encourage you guys to bring lost friends. We're gonna actually end the service with an invitation this week, an opportunity to receive Christ. I'm gonna be focusing on the story of the woman who washes Jesus' feet. We're gonna look at that exclusively. There's a lot of great stuff in Luke seven.
Matt Brown:But I just think this is an opportunity for people who are far from God to get close with God, to get real with God. And the way we do that is by putting our faith and trust in Jesus Christ. And I think this sinful woman is a great example of what it means to follow Jesus. And so I just would encourage you guys, invite friends that are far from God and are at a place in their life where they're willing to consider the truthfulness of Jesus.
Justin Pardee:Awesome. Well, we will definitely be praying for that as we move toward the weekend. Well, thank you guys so much for listening. Listen, if you've got a question coming up out of the teachings or if you've been reading ahead in Luke and you wanna get your question here on the debrief, just reach out to your community group leader. Let them know and they will get your question here on the show and we'll get it in front of pastor Matt's face and he'll get you an answer.
Justin Pardee:Awesome. Well, thanks guys for listening. We're super excited. Episode was this number two?
Matt Brown:Not sure how I'm not Two? I can't count because you guys started with zero.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Exactly, dude. Episode two in the can. Thanks guys for listening.
Matt Brown:Alright. Thanks.