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The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
092 Gladwell Outliers Final
[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the shuts podcast. Eighties episode 92. I know Cohoes might pass since, and certainly today I'm joined by a man. That might be quite an outlier. Yes. It's once again, ma good morning. Good morning, Mike. What a sunny spring Sydney morning, not to rub it in all of our listeners is, but I've got to say today, it's gotta be one of the most beautiful days in my recent memory.
It's, uh, it's pretty beautiful. And, uh, sunshine in springtime, uh, is by no means an outlier in Sydney. Is it? No, you're very good. It's it's not, it's, it's an absolute, um, dependable source that you can just wake up and, and rely on. I mean, I must admit you've dropped it a couple of times now, [00:01:00] Mike, I reckon we should reveal the focus of today's episode.
Don't you. I do indeed let them have at Marky Mark today, episode 92, we are continuing our Malcolm Gladwell series with Malcolm's third book outliers. The story of success. This is another number one national bestseller, the Malcolm released. And I've got to say. It's an absolute page Turner. There are so many interesting insights and moments of revealing.
It's a data. I found it. I found it fascinating, actually. Mike, how did you find it? Yeah, I think this is one of those books. I mean, this book probably marks Malcolm Gladwell more than any other. This one really catapulted into popular culture and it really promoted this idea of the 10,000 hours, which we can get into.
And we're going to get in going to get into a ton more as well, because [00:02:00] we're not only going to hear from Malcolm himself were even going to bring in one of our favorites. Bill Gates, uh, reflecting the work of Malcolm Gladwell and we're going to. You know, transcend everywhere between the real concepts that are in outliers.
And this is a key idea of capitalization, which is really interesting right. Through to what it takes to master something. So a bit of an action pack show Mark. It is a, it reminded me a little bit of some of the Adam Grant work, you know, where he was encouraging us to think about those around us in, um, You know, different almost personality traits, I guess.
And, and the book is of outliers is reflecting on, okay, well, what separates these individuals like bill Gates, for example, from the norm, you know, what sets people apart? How are these high achievers different from any of the rest of us? And I'd say we've got a pretty action packed show that reveals some of those.
[00:03:00] Insights and some of those lessons that we can absorb from people like bill Gates. I mean, the book we reference, he references the Beatles. Well, there's a lot of, there's a lot of good direction in there that I think can inspire all of us and our listeners. Yeah, I agree. And you know, when I think about why this book matters for our audience, I think it it's touching on some great things.
I think it's really pushing through, uh, this false hood that it's all about talent and moving much more into opportunity and hard work. I think what. We've also got here is for anyone that is really thinking about mastering something. I think this provides a framework for any creator builder.
Entrepreneur or just somebody who wants to be the very best version of themselves. I think this is an essential concept. Um, this idea that, uh, Malcolm Gladwell brings to life in outliers. So [00:04:00] buckle your seat belts. I think there's a lot of good stuff coming, and I think that we have the chance as. Normal to learn out loud from some of the very best.
So Mark, where do you want to start this adventure? Well, I thought we always try and start the show with a clip from our author or innovator. And this time it's a little bit different. We're still going to hear Malcolm Gladwell talking about his book outliers, but. We're actually going to hear about him talking about the book after it came out.
So he's not necessarily going on a bit of a press tour to release it. He's actually reflecting back once it's become a bit of a national success. So this first, and he's had an opportunity to dig into why, why does he think it was so popular with the readers? So this first clip is Malcolm reflecting on his book, outliers, and why he thinks becomes such a moment in the national database books.
So I want to talk about my new book, which, um, you know, there are many things in it and I can [00:05:00] say all kinds of things about it, but I thought I would talk about an idea that is actually not in the book, but that I've been thinking about a lot since writing it and which encapsulates a lot of what the book is about.
And it's, um, it's this idea that's called capitalization and it is a concept that very brilliant. Psychologist named James Flynn has written a lot about those of you who know something about IQ research will have heard of the Flynn effect. That's James Flynn's idea. And he's written a lot about this concept of capitalization, which is, um, what is the rate at which a society capitalizes on its potential?
And it was what percentage of people who are capable of doing something actually end up doing that thing, right? How efficiently do we make use of the talents within a given group of people? So let me give you an example. Um, you know, how many of you read Michael Lewis's book? The blind side, which is this [00:06:00] extraordinary book about a young man in East Memphis, a teenager.
Who's six foot six and 350 pounds. And he's discovered by an adopted by a wealthy white family. And they realized that he's an extraordinary athlete and they, um, they work with him until he becomes one of the finest offensive linemen in the country. And in fact, he's about to be drafted into the NFL as many years later and make kajillion dollars.
They, um, it's this extraordinary story, but the part of it that always stayed with me when I read it was right at the very end, the kid whose name is Michael O'Hare says that he's from the slums of Memphis, he's Memphis. And he says, if everyone, um, who I grew up with, um, who was, who was into football, who had a grill ability in football actually ended up playing football.
They need to have two national football leagues. And what he was saying was that, um, that. East Memphis did not do a very good job of capitalizing on [00:07:00] its athletic ability. Right? And so Louis actually follows up on this and he, he does this, he talks to some people in the East Memphis school system and he asked them what percentage of kids in East Memphis who get a college athletic scholarship actually end up going to college?
And the answer was one in six. Which absolutely floored me because I would have thought that when it comes, if there was one thing in America that we were really good at doing, it would be exploding ability of our youth. In particularly of our, of our Africans youth. I would have thought that in an inner city area, the capitalization rate for sports would have been 90%.
But in fact, what we learned in East Memphis is that the capitalization rate is one in six. It's 16%. Right? So now think about it. If in something that we care about, as much as sports, right? Something we there's possibly nothing in American society [00:08:00] that we devote more time and attention, intellectual resources to then the maximization of the professional sporting experience in something that we cared that much about our cap rate is 60%.
So how high must it be in things that we don't care that much about? Right. That's a very sobering notion and it says that as a society, we have an awful lot, a long way to go towards properly maximizing the human potential of our members. And so I realized when I thought about that book, that outliers is really about that question.
It's about identifying sources of constraints on capitalization rates and figuring out how to remove them.
One in six, one in six Mark. Doesn't that number shock you in that story? He just told it really does. And a lot of us have probably seen or read the book, the blind side by Michael Lewis. I mean, I've certainly seen the film. [00:09:00] Um, With Sandra Bullock and, and it's fascinating story actually, and we won't go into it today.
We'll, we'll do a blind side podcast episode at some point, but really dig into Malcolm's story here, bring it to life with the blind side reference is, is quite shocking. You would assume that with that level of talent and abilities, that the. The true trajectory, all of those individuals or those youth members.
Going on to be successful in an athletic or sports field would, would be almost guaranteed. Right? They are so good. They're going to be projected into the, um, the NFL and so on, but actually it's the fable of the golden ticket out of hardship. Um, you know, landing the big deal. Yeah, it's only one in six, 16%.
It's so much lower than I think anybody would, would assume. Right. And, but [00:10:00] what I think is great about that clip of, of Malcolm kind of reflecting on his book is he sort of figured it out. He said, okay, well, you know the book, which we'll go and talk about more in the episode today. But it's about capitalization and we've all, we all have the power to capitalize on our talents, right?
It's up to us to know how to behave and respond to challenges and so on in our lives. And I think that that's really, you know, Malcolm kicking off the show in the right direction. Right. I totally, I agree. And it's really comes down to what we can do with this idea to better understand. We may be, uh, you know, blessed with a talent or several.
Um, but as we can see, if all of the great football players at college actually made it through to the NFL, then we'd need two NFLs. That is a parable for life itself. There are so many brilliant people with brilliant talents. [00:11:00] But there are many factors such as opportunity and hard work that really determine those that are sent to the highest levels.
But, um, let's have another listen to a, kind of a very, very closely related followup clip where Malkin continues to really challenge us with this idea of capitalization. When you think about problems, in other words, from the perspective of capitalization, I think you look for answers in different places.
Then when you have a far more simple or more reductive approach to these kinds of things. Now, why is this capitalization should of capitalization so important? Because I think when we look at why certain people or groups succeed in the world, our default, excellent is always have those differences in success reflect underlying different inability.
And we forget about. How much, um, poverty, uh, stupidity and attitudes [00:12:00] are far more important constraints on, on capitalization. It's not always about ability and it down to poverty, stupidity. And ultimately what a combination. Uh, but, but, you know, I, I think, um, what I encourage everyone to do is they hear this, they hear Malcolm Gladwell talking about his book outliers.
Is really see this as a challenge unto ourselves, is that not only do you have to put in the hard work, but you have to put your self in the right place at the right time to make that opportunity. And that's also something that you have, but it's all about this lens of how do you capitalize on your talent?
How do you help others capitalize on their talents? And I think this is a great call to action. And to bring this kind of on a whirlwind tour, what were very, uh, in having is [00:13:00] we've got a clip of bill Gates relating this very idea. Of hard work and capitalization on his own life. So what a great example to see, and he takes in both the direct and the indirect factors and really puts Malcolm Gladwell's work in a very relatable context.
And I think this is the perfect. Opportunity for us now to start relating this idea in the book outliers, and really to see what it takes, not only in terms of the hardware, but in terms of capitalizing through timing and opportunity. So let's have a listen now to bill Gates. What do you think of Malcolm Gladwell's theory that the years 1953 to 1955 were the perfect ones in which to be born for the computer revolution?
Well, they, yeah, his book, it makes a lot of great points. Um, that is [00:14:00] that. In all success stories, there are significant elements of luck and timing. Mmm. I wasn't the only kid born between 1953 and 55, but absolutely lead to be young. And open-minded at a time when the microprocessor was invented. In my case, have a friend Paul Allen who was more open minded about hardware type things.
And the literally brought me the obscure article that talked about that first microprocessor and said, you know, this is going to improve exponentially. What does that mean? And I said, well, that means we can do anything we want. And then he was bugging me the rest of the time. Every time there'd be a new microprocessor, he said, can we do something?
Yeah. And. When we were in high school, that didn't happen. So he came back to Boston, took a job there and actually the microprocessor that was finally good enough. Came [00:15:00] out in early 1975. And that's, that's why I dropped out. The claiming was pretty important. You know, white in older people see it, the hell they weren't as open open-minded.
They didn't think about software as the key ingredient. Now, a lot of kids started doing software. You don't, it's not, if somebody reads the book to say that if you spend 10,000 hours doing something, you'll be super good at it. I don't think that's quite, it's quite a similar to that. What you do is you do about 50 hours.
And 90% drop out cause they don't like it or they're not good. You know, you do another 50 hours and 90%. So there's these constant cycles and you do have to be lucky enough, but also fanatical enough going. And so the person who makes it 10,000 hours is not just somebody who's done it for 10,000 hours.
There's somebody who's chosen and been chosen in many [00:16:00] different times. And so all these. Magical things came together and cleaning who I know in that timing. I think that's very important when you look at somebody who's good and say, could I do it like them? They've gone through so many cycles that it may fool you that yes, you could with the right lock imagination and some, some talent.
Oh, what a clip from bill Gates? Say. The cycles of working hard to succeed of no software and no thing is seeing opportunity in the air and just going after it. I love the comparison that he gives from the 10,000 hours. And equates it into more like 50 hours. I mean, personally, that's more achievable of course, but I, but I like this, this cycle of [00:17:00] reduction 50 hours, everybody will go in and by the end of that period, 90% would have jobs.
You go through another cycle. 90% of that remaining factor will be, you know, giving up or moving on to something else. And, you know, bill Gates saying, we can do anything we want. Ultimately comes down to, if you put in the time and do the hard work, right. Oh, I mean, there was so much in that clip. First thing is he was open to the idea and generationally others were not.
So my takeout here yeah. Is you have to realize that when new paradigms are coming, you have to force yourself to be open to new ideas. Otherwise you'll miss them. I mean, I remember when I, uh, when I, the way I relate to, to bill Gates on this one, Is, I remember doing my first internet project at work in 1990 and it just [00:18:00] blew me away.
Right. Time, right place. And so I found myself so very fortunately, uh, in 2000 as an internet expert, because hardly anybody knew what it was. Right. But I had put in the work and then I had this wonderful opportunity to go and work in Amsterdam and. So on and so forth, that opportunity came to me directly because I embraced the internet in 96 when I saw it.
And what bill Gates is talking about is exactly the light right thing, right. Place that if you are born in a time, You are naturally open to it. I think what the take here is how you can maximize your radar, the aperture, open it up as big as possible to receive these ideas rather than to dismiss them.
What do you think? I, I, I totally agree. I think being open to receiving that information, noticing those opportunities at, [00:19:00] and going on to commit yourself where others might not. If you work hard and you, you immerse yourself and, and, you know, you become an expert in that field. And this is something obviously that Malcolm Gladwell's talked about previously as well is, is really where I can see the success of bill Gates coming from.
He was just disciplined. He. You know, obviously he had a lot of talent, had a lot of knowledge, but he only had the knowledge because he put in the time to learn too well. That, yeah. Kind of gets me to the second point. So the first one is being open to receiving, to considering new ideas. The second one, that bill really focused because Don, which is at the core of Malcolm's book of why the 10,000 hours matter.
It just doesn't matter because you need that time to develop the skill. Here's the, here's the big thing. And I want [00:20:00] everyone to really, really focus on this thought, the longer you stick with it, the fewer other people. Are sticking with it too. So what this therefore means is that you will become more unique over time because the real truth here is people just don't stick with things.
And I think this is so insanely profound. This is incredibly important. What my reflection on what bill Gates just told us. He's like, I kept sticking to it and every cycle, more people drop off, you know, everyone starts full of energy. And then after the first 50 hours of bunch drop off and then another cycle and then a whole nother bunch drop off, the truth is most people don't stick to things.
Most people are not prepared to put in the work. So if you do, you're not only improve your skills. [00:21:00] But you become rarer. You become more unique over time because people simply don't stick with it. Oh, I mean, it reminds me of Elan, Elan Musk, and, um, yeah, I don't remember which number it is now that we've done 92, but there's been a couple of, I think a couple of Elon Musk shows as well.
The, uh, the latest Ilan show that we did. It's Elan talking about his astronauts heroes that he always looked up to and how they won. Oh yeah. Supporters of privatization. And they weren't such keen supporters of, um, you know, unique businesses, like Elan's going into the space race. And regardless of that opinion of his heroes, He could have turned away at that point.
He could have said, you know, maybe they were right. [00:22:00] Okay. I'm going to give up. I don't want to stick with it anymore, but he didn't and look where we are now going on just a couple of months. Well, even further, let, let's take this idea and even further level. So not only did he stick with it. Not only did he reject the naysayers, but he had something else.
He had a pair of who knows, because when it came time to write the check for both, uh, I believe it was Tesla and solar city at the time, both were in bad shape. This is a moment when he had to write a check for all his net worth. And divvied up between the two companies. So he was officially not worth anything anymore.
When he, when he, uh, gave those checks to his two companies to help them survive, he did it. Most people would have said, then look, if I just walk away, I'll have enough money. I can live a nice [00:23:00] life. So this plays into the 10,000 hours. Again, the longer you stick with it, not only the better you become. The more people will actually fall by the wayside.
But if you have, in addition to this, the courage to keep going to stick to your beliefs, the vision that you have, there are great things at the end of that, regardless of where and how and what you're doing. If you stick to it. If you work hard and look, I can see this in so many, so many of the people that we've studied, you know, obviously when we talk about hard work, it's Michael Jordan.
When I, when I think about courage and being relentless, I think lady Gaga and really fighting for the things you believe. I think of people like Michelle Obama. The thing here is, this is another one of those universal patterns that we can see. Malcolm Gladwell has [00:24:00] touched on something that bill Gates and many others hold to be true.
And that is stick with it hard work over time. And when the tough times come stay the course, I think this is so incredibly powerful, and this is the way to capitalize on your talents. And I th I think this is the gift of Malcolm Gladwell's book outliers. I couldn't agree more. And it's so. Easy in our lives to come up against struggles, come up against moments in our days, our weeks or months, our years with 2020 and think, ah, I can't do this anymore.
I want to change whatever it might be. Maybe there's a frustration and, you know, learning something new or, or working on a project and sticking with it. Is like you say, that's the big lesson coming out of outliers, sticking with it. [00:25:00] You can achieve that moment of greatness, much like somebody like bill Gates has done because those others will, will fall by the wayside.
I think you're right. That's the key lesson. And that's the key motivator and inspirational lesson that comes out of it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And what, what I want to set up for, for, for the next parts of the show, we're going to look at how crucial the time factor really is to put in the time to put in the effort and how this comes to life in hockey.
We're going to have a look at it in with children. We're going to have a look at culturally across the world. We've got a ton of clips that are going to explore what this looks like. We're going to bring it to life and break it down. But if you want to break down the lessons that we can learn from innovators, Mark, where do you think all our listeners can go in the universe?
If they're thinking they need more of this sort of [00:26:00] inspiration, if you want to go and revisit some of our favorite episodes, including Elon Musk, our second show on, on him, uh, episode 81. You can go and visit moonshots or.io. That's our online portal. We should say our launch pad into the past 91 shows that we've done on all of our favorite innovators, authors and sports people.
We're gathering all of our favorite clips, transcriptions for all of our shows, as well as some show notes and helpful additional links. Elements such as Reed Hastings is Netflix culture deck. Everything is up on moonshots and dot I O it is. And so if you're not checking out moonshots.io, there is one more thing I want to ask of all of our listeners.
I know there are. Thousands of you. And we [00:27:00] appreciate all of your feedback when you send us an email@helloatmoonshots.io. When you leave ratings and reviews. In fact, over the history of the show, we have 110 ratings and reviews, and we are so grateful. Uh, to everyone that has left a review of the show or given us a rating in their favorite podcast app.
I want to take this moment to really ask if you are enjoying the show, we would really ask only one thing of you is that you, as you're listening right now, just open up your app. Uh, give us a rating, uh, hour. If you're feeling a little wordy, give us a review because this is how folks all around the world.
Discover. Uh, the show, how, how we can share these lessons that we're learning from innovators all around the world. And thanks to those hundred and 10 ratings and reviews. We welcome a brand new cohort of [00:28:00] listeners, including folks from Thailand and Latvia. Yeah. We welcome you. Uh, Um, we thank you for being part of this journey, uh, into listening and learning from innovators and really trying to be the very, very best version of ourselves.
Uh, so thank you to everybody who has contributed in that way. All right, Mark. Uh, we've really warmed up now with bill Gates, um, coming in very heavy with some big lessons. What's the twist and the turn now that we're going to take with Malcolm Gladwell's book outliers. Well, bill Gates was taking us through this concept of hard work separating, uh, you know, the, um, resilient from those who are perhaps slightly less resilient and.
I think we should continue exploring this element of time. The fact that timing matters, but what actually sometimes [00:29:00] matters even more is the investment of it, the effort that people put into it. And what's a really interesting experiment from the book outliers by Malcolm Gladwell is a referential story to hockey.
The, um, the NHL and here's a clip from Malcolm telling us a story about the hockey league and how there's a real balance between real talent as well as the investment of time. So at one point I looked at the roster of the 2007 junior Czech hockey team. Now I did not pick that team for any. I picked that team at random.
I just was interested in that's an elite team who was. The second or third best junior hockey team in the world after of course the Canadians I'm Canadian. And so it's a, it's a really elite team. These are the kids who go on to play in the NHL or in the elite, um, uh, adult leagues in, in, um, in Europe. So I'm going to read to you birth dates of the members [00:30:00] of that national check team, 2007, January 3rd, January 3rd, January 12th.
February 8th, February 10th, February 17th, February 20th, February 24th, March 5th, March 10th, March 26th, April 22nd, May 5th, June 6th, July 2nd, July 19th, July 20th, August 15th, August 25th, August 31st, November 29th and December 31st. Um, now what's strange about that list. Okay. Did you notice 11 of the 20 names are born in January, February, and March.
It is a massively skewed distribution of birth dates towards the first three months of the year. Now that is not something idiosyncratic to the 19 to the 2007 check junior hockey team. And in fact, if you look at any elite AKI team, anywhere in the world, and for that matter, any elite soccer team, anywhere in the world, you will see the same skewed distribution.
You will see that an overwhelming number [00:31:00] of the members of those teams are born in January, February, and March. Now, why is that?
The answer is that the eligibility cutoffs for age, class hockey and soccer throughout the world is January 1st. And in both those sports, we very, very aggressively recruit the best and the brightest kids at a very early age. So we go and we look at a group of ten-year-olds and we watched him play hockey or soccer, and we picked the best.
Right. And we select them out. We put them in all star teams and we give them special coaching and extra practice time and more games and encourage them and encourage them. Right. I'm thinking that is the best way to capitalize on the talent pool, that particular sport. Right. But think about it. When you're 10 years old, who's going to be the best at a particular activity, physical activity, the oldest kids.
Right. The kid who was born in January has 10 months of maturity on the kid born in October. And when you're 10 years old, 10 months is an extraordinary, long period of [00:32:00] time. It's committed to, it can be three or four inches in height. It can be a difference between between being clumsy and being massively coordinated.
So we think we are picking the best and we're not, we're picking oldest. Right? And then we take the oldest and we give them a special coaching and all kinds of extra opportunities and all kinds of extra games. And lo and behold, 10 years later, they really are the best. Right. But it's a self fulfilling prophecy.
We created the conditions that made them the best and foolishly thought we were actually identifying real talent. You know, the interesting thing about that is he just did the work and looked at those birthdates and when he reads them through, it's kind of shocking, isn't it? It's pretty funny. I mean, the.
I think when I was a kid at school, it was a pretty, pretty fast spread throughout the year with, with my, um, you know, peers and so on, but he's pretty spread, but I think there was [00:33:00] undeniably this knowledge or awareness that those who were born towards the beginning of the school year work. You know, bigger, you know, they were taller.
And I think it's funny how, from a naturalistic perspective, you sort of forget about that. You know, I guess it matters less as we get older, but when you're a kid and you're getting chosen for school teams and sports and maybe abilities in the classroom, there's perhaps as Malkin's pointing out a natural bias towards those who, um, All perhaps older and therefore taller and stronger to receive the most attention and therefore the most encouragement and investment of time from adults to become the best.
And I think it's quite a, a contrast, quite a conflicting idea this from, from outcome, which is wow. You're right. We're putting all this time and effort into. These kids and we are fulfilling our own [00:34:00] prophecy. Hi, well, I think, yeah, I think the lesson really here is that this data proves out that how crucial time is, and it's, you know, when you've owned it, we're in you're only 10 years of age months do matter.
They make up a big total lifetime and experience. It was almost like this is the quantitative data that supports the idea the time truly. Does matter. And it was so interesting that we saw it in not only hockey, but also in soccer. So there is this pattern where we are choosing not the most talented, but those who.
Uh, the oldest and that was, I don't think that was a really good way to kind of bring it full circle. And now what we get the chance to do is to dive into how this thinking is not only applicable fella hockey. And I fell, uh, building [00:35:00] software, but it also relates to how we can think about the role of culture and opportunity even with bringing up something like our kids.
So let's have a listen now to Malcolm Gladwell talking about how to capitalize. Um, the ability of your kids and other ones. The thing is when we look at, um, Asian cultures, what we are seeing is this, this difference in mathematical ability, what we're seeing is not some underlying difference in talent or aptitude for mathematics, but a difference in capitalization.
That Asian, the Asian cultural attitude about work has the result of being a far more efficient way of capitalizing on math ability than Western attitudes it's towards work. Right. And that tells us where the death sit in our mathematical education in the Western world lies. It's not in our curriculum.
It's not in the quality of our teachers. It's not on the [00:36:00] size of our classrooms. It's not in the amount of money we spend on schools. It is the attitude in the head of the child as here's, she sits down in 11th grade and does algebra or calculus. Right. And by the way, nor is it a problem in our genes, as some people would like to say, there's a whole bizarre argument that.
Westerners have an inferior set of genes when it comes to mathematics, then Easterners, you know, a totally ludicrous and unnecessary step in this argument. No, it's about culture. It's about a difference in attitude and about their ability to far more efficiently capitalize on the abilities of their kids.
Malcolm's bringing us back to this. Um, Inside that he revealed at the beginning of our show today, the capsulization on that opportunity. And I think it's really coming through in that clip here, which is reminding us. Okay, well, don't blame nature. You know this idea of nature versus nurture. [00:37:00] Exactly.
Don't think, Oh, well I'm not good at it. Or, you know, my kids, aren't going to be good at it because I wasn't good at it. My parents weren't good at it. Therefore I'm not going to be. And instead, okay, well, it's all about your mental approach. It's your attitude. Anybody can do what they set out to do. If you've got that.
Focus that laser sharp focus and what bill Gates was calling out the ability to, uh, you know, survive this, drop off effect these cycles. If you've got the attitude and the, I wanna say resilience to go and maintain that course your kids or you, if you're a student or in the classroom can achieve that because you're going to capitalize on your abilities.
Yeah, and I want to come back to what we can do for ourselves here. The, the, again, Malcolm is providing us with a data point that no, no. These guys just [00:38:00] work harder. These students put in the effort, and I think this is a moment where we can remind ourselves that we're presented with a world of all these overnight successes.
Every think, uh, in our technology driven world is within a click. Within an instant it's real time. I mean, it's so great to think. You don't even have to get off your couch and food can arrive, cooked and warm at your front door. Right? You didn't have to go plow the fields. You didn't have to slave away in the kitchen.
It just happened. So in a world of instant gratification, I think the importance of this cannot be understated that whatever your dreams are. Remember that realizing them is not instant. It is not a one overnight sensation. It is a [00:39:00] lifetime of hard work of perspiration. And when you really are in the Valley of darkness, you can't give up.
I think this is such a stark contrast to all these services. We have movies in a click food in a click. But actually realizing our dreams, no matter what the technology, nothing has changed hard work. I just love it back. What are you taking out as you reflect on this idea in your world, in your context and all the instant things around you, what's coming back for you, man.
When I was at, when I was a kid, I REM I think I grew up on movies, books, stories that. Drove this idea that everybody can be. Um, I suppose the next bill Gates, there you go. We could all be bill Gates and it's a wonderful lesson to have. [00:40:00] Everything is achievable, but I think what you don't necessarily get shown when you're younger is the groundwork that goes into it and building on what you're saying, Mike, the instant gratification of Uber eats or deliver and deliveries to our door is actually I can go on YouTube and find.
Tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of videos promising me, you know, $20,000 in a day or a month. I can get it from my couch and you assume, Oh, well, great. It's money for nothing. It's easy. And I can be an overnight success. And therefore be able to get my food delivered to my couch and, and you don't really get shown the amount of work that went into it and outliers is, is, you know, reminding us of here.
And that clip from Malcolm is really, really valuable because it reminds us that hard work is, is the [00:41:00] foundation. Of success. And even I remember Joe Rogan, he was the saying the same thing. Yep. He would earn it. He got to earn it. And, and this for me is I think the big reveal that happens as you, as you work hard at something, you find your success in the way that you interpret it, you find success in knowing that you've worked really, really hard and you've achieved something that maybe you thought was impossible.
Maybe a week ago, maybe a day ago, but the fact that you've come through it, you've you've achieved it. And I think it's all about re. Re noticing and, and evaluating. And the fact that you can't have this overnight success straight away, you can't have it overnight. You've got to put in the hours and you've got to whether it's 10,000 or whether it's 50 with the site, you've got to put in that time.
And for me Gladwell's book and all of his work, in fact reminds you [00:42:00] of this concept. It does it, it is very powerful. And in this next clip, we're going to discover the way in which culture and learning can set the scene. It can set up the environment and the conditions to drive this positive behavior. So let's have, well, listen, once again, uh, to Malcolm Gladwell, this time, taking a tourist into culture and values.
I really, really interesting question is okay. If Asian cultures have profoundly different attitudes towards effort, when it comes to mathematics, why. Right. Where does that come from? And nobody knows, but in my book I venture what I think is a plausible explanation. And that is that I think it has to do with patterns of effort laid down in, in historical agricultural practices.
That when you look, what, what is the thing that, um, [00:43:00] Hong Kong, South China, South Korea and Japan all have in common, and that is, they are historically rice growing cultures. Right. And what is distinctive about rice growing? It is the most labor intensive and cognitively complex form of agriculture known to man.
Um, we know, so my. On my father's European ancestors in the middle ages in Northern England, uh, probably worked a thousand hours a year as, as in farmers. So what that meant was they worked from, uh, from Dawn to noon, uh, five days a week. On the weekends, they drank themselves silly. And during the winter they slept basically.
And they got lots of, I don't know if you know this, but peasant in medieval, England got lots and lots and lots of holidays that peasants counterpart in South China or Japan in the same period would not have worked 1000 hours a year. They would have worked 3000 hours a year for the simple reason that rice farming [00:44:00] is just.
The whole, it is not a difference, not just a difference in degree from wheat farming is a difference in kind it's a whole different way of working. It demands that you wake up at Dawn and work all the way until dusk. It demands that you work on the weekend. In fact, there's a wonderful, uh, uh, uh, Chinese product that I quote in the book, which is, um, a man.
Uh, who works Dawn to dusk 360 days a year will not go hungry. Right. Which is encapsulates the difference between June end, Western agricultural practices. No, by peasant ancestors in Northern England, it would be inconceivable that they could call that a proverb. They would have said the man who works.
175 days a year, Dawn two 11 may or may not be hungry well, but as if your culture does that, [00:45:00] if that's what you guys, what you do for a thousand years, that attitude is a deeply rooted part of your makeup. And when your kids, even if they didn't themselves work in a rice Patty, when they sit down and face.
Calculus or an algebra problem that legacy, that attitude towards effort and persistence translates beautifully to that most modern of tasks. Right. And that, and means that your culture will do a far better job of, of, of capitalizing on, on, on its innate ability. Oh, I think that's such powerful clip and.
It's such an interesting moment in history that, that Malcolm references. And actually it's fascinating to hear, but, but if I step away from the history aspect for a second, it's a stark example of attitude adjustment. Isn't it, Mike, how it is when you compare the two different cultures or of Europe and Asia [00:46:00] and history and so on.
It's funny how there's a. Innately, you can see this sort of soft versus hard approach, you know, of mindset of behavior. And it'd be interesting to see how that reflects into our work and day to day lives right now. I think. Hmm. I mean, it really challenges you, if you just take this fascinating insight from Gladwell and say, okay, well, if, if I want in my team at work, Or my sports team or any group or community in which you're a key player, a leader contributor, and you want to create the right culture, the right set of behaviors.
Um, whether you put in the work, uh, taking, taking the ownership, just as an example, to me, it reminds me of [00:47:00] don't ask your colleagues to do work that you wouldn't be prepared to do to take it even further. If you want your team to show a high level of ownership to put in the work. The question is, are you, are you putting in the work because it's very unfair to ask of them things you would not have asked of yourself, take it even further.
If you want them to do such things, then you might need to set the culture, the environment you might need to. So the rice Paddy fields for months, you need to set the example. What that's, what we're seeing with this rice Patty story is we can bring this straight into our work and ask ourselves, are we.
Are we putting in the work if we want others as [00:48:00] well, because that's how people learn. Right? Classic thing is that I see in parenting to come back to one of the previous clips is, um, and you know, this is something, uh, that's commonly discussed in Western culture. If a kid is misbehaving, if a kid is demonstrating poor behaviors, what do you know where that comes from?
And what would the answer be? Oh, I think it would be parents, right? Exactly. So they're adopting the cultures and the behaviors that they see at home and bringing it maybe to school. So for me, the power in this thinking is that if we celebrate and cherish, And continually repeat the behaviors that we think are important to success in whatever field.
Then that sets an example and it becomes kind of contagious. And we can see that what happens in the rice Patty, uh, in Asia, happens in the class when they're doing math. [00:49:00] It's appropriated it's bridged. I think this is so good. I think this is the big challenge of asking all of us. Are we putting in the work?
Are we putting in as Malcolm Gladwell will say the 10,000 hours, it's big. It's big. And, and again, it's a good example of what Gladwell's like as a, as an innovator and a thinker, you know, he's, he's bringing us home with this history and. Proving his point. You know, I love, I love your reference there, Mike, to the upbringing clip because you're quite right.
Not only are we able to influence those around us in our day to day work now our careers, and by setting examples with our peers, are we making sure that everybody knows that if I'm working hard, Or if I'm asking somebody to work hard, I can show them that I'm working hard too. And you know, I'm reminded actually of William H [00:50:00] McRaven.
Do you remember that fantastic clip where they're buried up to their chins in the mud and. There were, they were all out in the cold shivering and it all seems very bleak and they have to stay there for 24 hours. But actually what ends up happening in, in William H McRaven story is that they will start singing.
And that shared camaraderie, that shared moment that they've all had to experience is a lot easier because they're doing it together. And I think my brain's taking me back to, we mentioned McRaven here, because it's about that shared, uh, moment that, that example that somebody else is setting and how much it can help project other people with us.
If I see somebody, if I see one of my peers out in the, in the rice Patty, I'm going to think. Okay, well I'd better go and join him. I don't want him there by himself. Right. I [00:51:00] want to just, just like, just like at work. Exactly. Uh, if you lead with the hard work, if you put in the effort, if you demonstrate the behaviors you want to see.
It will become contagious. People will adopt it. And the truth really is that if we all come together and put in the effort, we can pick each other up. When we're struggling, we can really come together overtime, continuously day after day, week after week, month after month, and wait for it year after year, because as Gladwell said, it takes about 10, um, and great things can happen.
And. Truly, if you want to really, if you're not convinced yet about putting in the effort, let's go really to one of the greatest of the greats. Um, easily. One of my favorite musicians, one of the most [00:52:00] remarkable people to step foot on this planet was none other than Wolfgang, Mozart, and Gladwell is able to bring it all back.
To Mozart. So often when we look at great and extraordinary successes, we have some kind of sense that they came from, they came fully flowered. They arrived on the scene and their greatness was already apparent. Right. And all we had to do was to find some forum for that greatness to be expressed. We have a notion that so much of what makes someone good.
Is something natural, something inherent in that person or that organization. But when you look at Fleetwood Mac, you realize that that was for this thing, from the case, this was a band that was anything but good for the longest time that took 10 years to kind of find that particular sound that set them apart from everybody else.
This is something actually, I spend a lot of time on it in outliers. Um, this notion of how long it takes to be good. Because a lot of psychologists have actually attacked this [00:53:00] question and have discovered something, they call the 10,000 hours rule, which says that when we look at a wide variety of cognitively Plex activities, we find it a very consistent pattern.
That is, it seems to be impossible to any kind of true expertise, unless you have practiced for 10,000 hours and 10,000 hours. If you think about it, think of that as four hours a day is 10 years. The 10 year rule shows up in almost everything we look at, for example, um, chess, grandmasters, there's only ever been one chess Grandmaster in history who has achieved that level without having played chess for 10 years.
And that was Bobby Fischer who became a Grandmaster after nine years. You can take, um, Lovely studies of classical music composers. Uh, you take the whole enlist. You, you, you see what is the, the first piece of music they wrote? That was truly great. That was one of their kind of signature pieces. And it is never been the case that a truly [00:54:00] world-class please speak up.
Classical music has been composed before the composer was composing for 10 years. Now people always say, well, what about Mozart? Well, was Mozart composing in his at 10 and 11 years old. Absolutely. Have you ever listened to the things he was playing? He was composing at 10, 11. They're terrible. He wasn't any good until he was 23 and writes concerto number nine.
I mean, well, what a way to close, because it's such a relief to hear this example, whether it's Fleetwood Mac. Where, whether it's Bobby Fischer, chess, grandmas, or whether it's Mozart. It takes time. It takes dedication. It takes trial and error, and you're going to lose a few chest games. You're going to release a few songs that are no good, poor old Mozart Malcolm Gladwell, leaving a pretty scathing review on Mozart's work at when he was 11 years old, regardless.
It's, it's such a relief, um, [00:55:00] as well as an inspiring thing to notice and be aware of that. It does take time and I'm sure if we bring it back to bill Gates, the work that he was doing with Paul Allen, right at the beginning, when he was investigating software microchips, it wasn't that they had the idea fully formed.
Yet. They probably went through a few failures, a few errors. And once you've put in that time, you've learned your craft. And let's say it's 10 years to use Gladwell's example. That's when you're going to start seeing that result. And I feel like that's such an encouraging lesson, isn't it? Mike? It is really about resetting our expectations.
Isn't it exactly reset your assumption of instant gratification and overnight success. I'm not going to watch a YouTube video and suddenly earn loads of money from selling houses or owning lots of Bitcoin. It is [00:56:00] all about just do it a little bit better every single day for days, weeks, months, years. And as soon as you have come to realize it will not be an overnight success.
I mean just it resets everything and enjoy the journey. Now this is in vast conflict with this sort of instant gratification that surrounds us. I think we are all, whether we're young or old, have this incredible short term expectation for so many things. And I think the importance of what we're doing together today is using this book from Malcolm Gladwell.
And we're saying, look, what he does in his work in outlook is build us a path. No, it's not a 10,000 or more. Maybe it's 9,999. The point here is put in the hard work and [00:57:00] really do it for the longterm consistently over time. Be courageous in the value darkness and insure. That you don't fall victim to, Ugh, it's all too hard or don't fall victim to the world is against me.
I think what he is reminding us of is to set a longterm expectation. And then the challenge is to stay the course. And hopefully in doing this, you can start to enjoy not only the destination, but the journey. I think. Mark. We have gone and decoded something that is just so timely, um, in a world full of uncertainty.
The one thing for certain can be is that we put in the effort, but I think this might be. The most perfect timing for us to have done this episode, actually, Mike, [00:58:00] because all of us are experiencing unknown thing pressures with, with work as well, home as well as pandemics, you know, working remotely and so on.
It's all of us are going through this shared experience, but also at the same time, it's very personal. Everybody's going on their own unique journeys and. Going back and resetting expectations and remembering that it's a longterm thing and nothing happens overnight. It's not going to change overnight, but actually instead of only having a short term memory of the bad experiences instead readjust that mindset and just enjoy the journey to sniff the flowers.
Because people used to say, for me, this is. A big lesson. This is something that's going to help me remember when I'm going about my business, then it's, it can still be positive and yes, [00:59:00] readjust that, that expectation. I think that's, I think a big lesson. As we learned in the Joe Rogan episode, embrace the discomfort, you know, uh, earn it, earn it, earn it.
And, uh, it is so wonderful just to see Gladwell intersecting with bill Gates, Joe Brogan, um, Michael Jordan. Um, it really does, uh, help us frame how to think about where we are now, where we're going. So, Mark, it sounds like you might've changed your expectations. I have, I I've got a, been inspired by all of our previous innovators, but it's coming all to a point with Gladwell.
He's he's nailed it for me. He has. Yes. Well, listen, um, that brings us to the end of the show. Mark. I want to thank you, uh, for being part of this journey with me learning out loud, it has been such a treat to get into our third installment of Malcolm Gladwell. I do believe we might serve up. [01:00:00] One more installment.
Don't you, Matt? We have one more in our series on Malcolm Gladwell, our month of Malcolm, and we're going to be covering David and Goliath next week. And I can't wait. That's kind of what I think. David and Goliath. I love it. I love this whole idea. Of the contender of the challenger. And I hope you all our listeners who I want to thank for joining us on the show are feeling like real contenders, real challenges.
And most of all, I hope all of you are looking at how you can put in the work or you can stay the course over time, how you can really dedicate yourself. To the vision of what you want to become. And I hope that you're all in when you face that hardship, I hope that all of you are finding that inner courage to push through and to build something that is truly great.
Whether it's a product business, a service, a team, a community, you name it, stick to the plan, put in [01:01:00] the 10,000 hours. And without a doubt, if you're listening to me Gladwell, you'll be more than just an outlier. You'll be the very best version of yourself. So that's it. Main shuts podcast. I hope you've enjoyed this third installment of the Malcolm Gladwell series.
We've got one more to come and we hope to see you next time. That syrup.